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Just wondering what exactly is POV about the section indicated as it is the same as when you guys wrote it a long time ago, except for me changing Immigration and Customs service to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. User:LordPathogen 16:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The example is the weight of all the edits, again it is prima facie. -- evrik ( talk) 18:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
User:LordPathogen has objected to my tagging their comments with the {{ spa}} template. My view: the edit history stands as proof, as well as last week's sock puppet banning and LP's blocking. -- evrik ( talk) 17:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
As the article on Wikipedia:Single-purpose account clearly states, "use of this tag is highly discouraged as it can be interpreted as a personal attack that may lead to action being taken against you." It also clearly states "There is, of course, nothing inherently wrong with single-purpose accounts. " I have explained multiple times to this user exactly why I do not edit several articles as he chooses to do. He still is not satisfied. As for the sock puppet issue, I still deny that was the case. Hypocritically, however, Evrik is more than willing, even eager, to brand me a criminal in Wikipedia yet seems utterly incapable doing so with the subject of this article who was convicted of a felony and has an outstanding order for deportation. No he removes those categories (Mexican Criminal, Fugitive) because they upset his POV. I consider this a personal attack upon me in an attempt by Evrik to sway public opinion rather than make cogent counter-arguements to my postings. If it continues, I will report him which isn't going to do much to help him get his coveted Wikimedia Board of Trustees slot. User:LordPathogen 18:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
As the article on Wikipedia:Single-purpose account clearly states, "use of this tag is highly discouraged as it can be interpreted as a personal attack that may lead to action being taken against you." It also clearly states "There is, of course, nothing inherently wrong with single-purpose accounts. " I have explained multiple times to this user exactly why I do not edit several articles as he chooses to do. He still is not satisfied. As for the sock puppet issue, I still deny that was the case. Hypocritically, however, Evrik is more than willing, even eager, to brand me a criminal in Wikipedia yet seems utterly incapable doing so with the subject of this article who was convicted of a felony and has an outstanding order for deportation. No he removes those categories (Mexican Criminal, Fugitive) because they upset his POV. I consider this a personal attack upon me in an attempt by Evrik to sway public opinion rather than make cogent counter-arguements to my postings. If it continues, I will report him which isn't going to do much to help him get his coveted Wikimedia Board of Trustees slot. User:LordPathogen 18:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the categories Mexican American leaders, Mexican criminals and Fugitives as well as links to article Mexican Americans should be used in this article.
Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
Therefore, I think it reasonable to use the categories "Mexican criminals" and "Fugitives" for this article.
As for the category "Mexican American Leaders," Admin Will Beback clearly directed (see above) that Ms. Arellano does not fall under the category Mexican Americans. Therefore, she cannot fall under the category "Mexican American Leaders."
As for links to "Mexican American," Ms. Arellano is a Mexican national only and does not fit the description of the category, only the much looser defined project. She fails the description set forth in the first line of "Mexican American" article, "citizens of the United States of Mexican descent." Seems misleading to readers not familiar with the Arellano article. They could rightly wonder why a "Mexican American" has problems with US immigration authorities. Any links to the "Mexican American" article should be on her son's page, since he is in fact a Mexican-American. User:LordPathogen 20:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
User:LordPathogen 22:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Now that the debate has boiled down to just one over categorization, I thought I'd add my two cents.
The links for reference nos. 1 & 4 are not working properly. If somebody knows where they go (or has the time to look it up) could you please restore them? Thanks. 70.120.88.79 00:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (forgot to sign in again - Chicaneo) Chicaneo 08:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like to take this back to the version at 20:36, 9 May 2007. I am going to create a working draft Talk:Elvira Arellano/draft where we can add the sources added since then. This was the last point where I feel the article was neutral. -- evrik ( talk) 14:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
LP, as I have said in my posts to your personal talk page reversion to a more neutral version is a way to re-hash the issues, this time letting cooler heads prevail. Please bring the issues up once again so that we can work through them as a team. Because of my absence, I am not familiar with the previous issues but I will do my best to make sure that controversial edits become a win/win situation for everyone and thus the article will become better and richer. Chicaneo 16:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This contains a significant amount of material (especially pages 3-7) that was removed by user User:Evrik when he unilaterally reverted the article back a month. Read it and decide for yourself as to whether this data should be included or not... -- LordPathogen 15:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Right now it is Sunday, June 10, 2007 12:33 p.m. CST. I will look at the brief and the corresponding sections and evaluate it with strict NPOV in mind. BTW, I have two years post graduate work in Law. I attended law school while working 3/4 time as a law clerk for the now defunct Death Row Legal Defense Fund in Houston, Texas. I wrote appeals that were filed with the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals and Writs. of Cert. to the U.S. Supreme court. I AM NOT a lawyer, nor do I care to be. I do want to go heaven when it's all over. My eval and suggestions will be posted here no later than Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:00 p.m. CST. Chicaneo 17:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Here it is:
The question presented is whether material gleaned from the September 29, 2006 U.S. District Judge’s Memorandum Opinion and Order in Walter L. Coleman, as next friend of the minor child, Saul Arellano v. U.S. (specifically pages 3-7) and included in the unreverted version of the Elvira Arellano article should be included in the (reverted) version.
For purposes of making a comparison I have placed the following two versions side by side: Un-Reverted Version: Revision as of 09:26, June 8, 2007 Reverted Version: Revision as of 12:48, June 9, 2007
A few edits have been done to the article following the reversion, but these changes are all relatively minor.
There are bits and pieces from the Un-reverted Version that I believe should be included in the Reverted Version, but because of time constraints I do not have time to make suggestions right now. It has taken me this long to figure out how to do a table in HTML and plug in the text. Please see the discussion below titled “Proposal to submit existing disputes to mediation” specifically at my comments of 07:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC) regarding my recommendations on where the team should proceed from here.
I have placed spaces between the tables so that we can place our editorial comments there after each section. Chicaneo 21:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Comparison Between Un-reverted Version v. Reverted Version
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Intro: | Elvira Arellano (born 1975) is a Mexican citizen living illegally in the United States who, facing deportation from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, took sanctuary in the Adalberto United Methodist Church, of Chicago in August 2006. As of June 2007 she has not been removed from the church. She is considered a fugitive by U.S. authorities. [1] She is the president of La Familia Latina Unida (United Latino Family), a group that lobbies for families that could be split by deportation. [2] | Elvira Arellano (born 1975) is a Mexican citizen living illegally in the United States who, facing deportation from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, took sanctuary in the Adalberto United Methodist Church, of Chicago in August 2006. As of January 2007 she had not been removed from the church. She is considered a fugitive by U.S. authorities. [1] She is the president of La Familia Latina Unida (United Latino Family), a group that lobbies for families that could be split by deportation. [2] |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
History: |
On August 23, 1997, Arellano arrived at the Calexico Port of Entry on the Mexico/California border, attempting to enter the United States as a tourist using the name Sofia Escobar-Vela. She was denied permission to enter because she attempted to do so "by fraud or by willfully misrepresenting a material fact." [3] An expedited removal proceeding was conducted resulting in a removal order and Notice to Alien Ordered Removed/Departure Verification forbidding Arellano from "entering, attempting to enter, or being in the United States" for a period of 5 years. [3] Arellano signed the removal order Danna Miranda-Barreto. [3] Around August 30, 1997, she returned to the United States illegally and lived for three years in Oregon[1] where she met her son Saul's father. On December 18, 1998 in Toppenish, Washington she gave birth to Saul Arellano. [3] The whereabouts of Saul's father remain unknown since he abandoned Arellano three months into her pregnancy. Saul has never met his father and has no other relatives in the United States. [3] He is now seven years old and a United States citizen by virtue of having been born on United States soil. In 2000, Arellano moved to Chicago and worked as an airplane cabin cleaner at O'Hare International Airport [3] [4]. In 2002, following a post-September 11 security sweep, she was arrested for using the Social Security number of an 82 year old woman from Milwaukee, Wisconsin to obtain employment. Arellano signed a statement acknowledging her previous removal after which Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) gave her "an administrative warrant for her arrest based upon her prior removal and illegal reentry" as well as a "Notice of Intent/Decision to Reinstate Prior Order" in which ICE informed Arellano of their intent to reinstate her order of removal. [3] She indicated on the forms that she did not wish to make a statement contesting this reinstatement. Arellano was then released with an order of supervision pending the outcome of her criminal trial. She was convicted of the Social Security charge and on March 20, 2003 was sentenced to three years probation [4] that also included the conditions that if she is deported, she remain outside the United States unless the Attorney General of the United States grants her permission to enter and that she "comply with all directions of, and to provide truthful information to, her Immigration and Naturalization Service Officer." [3] |
Arellano entered the United States illegally in 1997[3], was apprehended and deported back to Mexico by the United States government[4]. She returned within days and lived for three years in Oregon[1].
|
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Just have time for a quick comment right now. I think that the "father remains unnamed", or something similar, is sufficient. The fact that he is not in the picture is perhaps relevant to the case, but once that is established further elaboration on the topic serves no useful purpose. -- Ramsey2006 03:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Deportation: |
Around August 12, 2003 the Chicago office of Immigration and Customs Enforcement sent Arellano a Form I-166 wherein it was stated she was "found deportable." [3] Due to health issues with her son, Arellano obtained support from the Illinois congressional delegation and on September 16, 2003, United States Representative Luis Gutierrez requested a deferral on her removal order by ICE. Deferral was granted until February 16, 2004. [3] On February 12, 2004, Arellano's attorney Chris Bergin asked for a six month extension of the administrative stay due to private bills filed in Congress on Arellano's behalf. ICE granted this and extended the administrative stay to August 16, 2004. On August 11, 2004, Mr. Bergin requested another stay, which was again granted by ICE changing her new removal date to August 16, 2005. On July 29, 2005, Congressman Gutierrez, along with Senator Richard Durbin and Mr. Bergin, requested an extension to the stay. The stay was granted and Arellano's new removal date was set for August 12, 2006. [3] Finally, on July 14, 2006, Mr. Bergin requested another extension of the stay, however this time, ICE declined to do so since Congress had adjourned without approving any of the private bills filed on Arellano's behalf. [3] Since her son's condition had improved, Senators Richard Durbin and Barack Obama stated there was nothing more they could do. [5]. Hence, at 9 AM on August 15, 2006, Arellano was ordered to appear before immigration authorities [1]. Instead, on that date she took refuge in the Adalberto United Methodist church in the Humboldt Park area of Chicago to avoid arrest and deportation. Since entering the church she has been quite vocal, stating "if she is arrested on 'holy ground,' she 'will know that God wants me to be an example of the hatred and hypocrisy of the current policy of this government.'" By her own account, Arellano is confident stating "I didn’t allow them to deport me" and that she has community support for her actions.[6] On September 29, 2006, U.S. District Judge Amy St. Eve dismissed a lawsuit filed on Saul Arellano's behalf by his mother's pastor, The Rev. Walter L. Coleman, wherein it was claimed that to deport Ms. Arellano would violate the constitutional rights of her son, Saul. In her order, the judge wrote "The question before the court is whether that hardship is of constitutional magnitude -- under any construction of the alleged facts, it is not." She further stated "Saul will not suffer any injury to his constitutional right to remain in the United States." [7] On November 14, 2006 in Mexico City, Saul Arellano, appeared before the Congress of Mexico [8]. The Mexican lawmakers passed a resolution to urge the United States government to suspend the deportation of Arellano and other parents of children who are United States citizens. [9] On May 3, 2007, Rep. Bobby Rush (D-IL) introduced H.R. 2182, which would grant legal immigrant status, with the possibility of applying for permanent residence status, to Arellano as well as to thirty-three other people.[10] The bill was referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary and (as of May 9, 2007) has yet to move out of committee. |
(there is no “Deportation” Section in this version - the text below is from the “History” section above)
Arellano was ordered to appear before immigration authorities on August 15, 2006. [1] Instead, on that date, she took refuge in the Adalberto United Methodist church in the Humboldt Park area of Chicago to avoid arrest and deportation.
|
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Impact: |
Arellano and her supporters assert that to deport her would be to violate the rights of her son Saul, a United States citizen, as he would be forced to be deported with her.[6] There are an estimated 4.9 million U.S. citizen children of illegal immigrants currently in the United States.[6] Critics of Arellano counter that she is exploiting her son in order to remain in the United States.[6] Latino advocates have highlighted this case as one of civil rights.[11] Arellano's right of sanctuary and her right to stay in the United States has been taken up by civil rights groups such as National Alliance for Immigrants' Rights, NCLR, LULAC, among others.[11] [12] In support, La Placita, a historic Los Angeles church, declared itself a sanctuary for any undocumented immigrant facing deportation, something it did during the 1980's for the first refugees from war-ridden Guatemala and El Salvador who escaped to California. [11] The U.S. government's position is that Arellano is free to take Saul with her to Mexico in order to keep her family together.[1] U.S. Law does not recognize the right of sanctuary. |
Arellano and her supporters assert that to deport her would be to violate the rights of her son Saul, a United States citizen, as he would be forced to be deported with her.[9] According to Mexico's Congressional Representative Jose Jacques, there are "more than 4.9 million children who have been born in the United States and whose parents live under the threat of deportation."[9] Critics of Arellano counter that she is exploiting her son in order to remain in the United States.[9] Latino advocates have highlighted this case as one of civil rights.[11] Arellano's right of sanctuary and her right to stay in the United States has been taken up by civil rights groups such as National Alliance for Immigrants' Rights, NCLR, LULAC, among others.[11] [12] In support, La Placita, a historic Los Angeles church, declared itself a sanctuary for any undocumented immigrant facing deportation, something it did during the 1980's for the first refugees from war-ridden Guatemala and El Salvador who escaped to California. [11] The U.S. government's position is that Arellano is free to take Saul with her to Mexico in order to keep her family together.[1] U.S. Law does not recognize the right of sanctuary On May 3, 2007, Rep. Bobby Rush (D-IL) introduced H.R. 2182, which would grant legal immigrant status, with the possibility of applying for permanent residence status, to Arellano as well as 33 other people.[13] The bill was referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary and (as of May 9th, 2007) has yet to move out of the committee. |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
See also: |
Illegal immigration to the United States Mexican American |
Illegal immigration to the United States Mexican American |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
External links: | (This version has no external links listed) | Legal Brief filed on behalf of Saul Arellano |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Categories: |
Accuracy disputes Current events as of June 2997 Mexican people 1975 births Living people Latino civil rights activists Mexican Protestants Mexican American leaders |
Mexican people 1975 births Living people Latino civil rights activists Mexican American leaders Protestants |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
What do you say Evrik and Ramsey? -- LordPathogen 03:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The discussion and the issues are not moot because of the reversion. Evrik has initiated an opportunity for us to do it all over again, but to do it right this time. We'll have a fresh start with a concerted team effort towards NPOV. On controversial issues we can work towards win/win situations and the article will be better for it. But for us to be successful we all need to act professionally and be civil to each other. LordPathogen, I won't call you and Will locos if you won't make references to fecal matter and sockpuppetry and Evrik, you need to stop using that darned tag that is making LP so upset. If we can't do this then I'll agree to mediation. Does anybody else agree or am I the Lone Ranger on this one? Chicaneo 19:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
In looking through the talk page it looks to me like Evrik has been pointing out his POV objections all along. Similarly, you have complained about his POV as well. I'm not going to butt into it any further, this scrap belongs to ya'll anyway. So if you're not willing to give it a go with a larger editorial team willing to strive towards strict NPOV then suit yourself. I, for one, will keep on keepin' on. c/s 70.120.88.79 22:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC) (forgot to sign-in again) Chicaneo 22:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
First, I’m not going to argue with you about what I read. Second, from the content of your most recent posts to this article you don’t appear to be willing to work things out with anyone regardless of the terms of agreement. I will elaborate later as it is connected to my fourth point. Third, 90% of the time just you three? You are living in the past instead of in the here and now. Tony (the Marine) and I have provided you with encouragement and support on your personal talk page. Tony has provided you with support here on this talk page. Rockero, Tony and I have agreed with you on various issues on this talk page. I have assured you on your own personal talk page that I was committed to editing this and one other article as that is what my time allows. Fourth, resistance to mediation? Why is proposing that we try to settle things as a team and then use mediation if it doesn't work resistance to mediation? I said: we have an opportunity to “do it right this time. We'll have a fresh start with a concerted team effort towards NPOV. On controversial issues we can work towards win/win situations and the article will be better for it. But for us to be successful we all need to act professionally and be civil to each other. … “ (BTW, Ramsy2006 agreed. You declined.) I also said that if we can’t work together as a team “then I'll agree to mediation”. On your own personal talk page I stated: “As Tony suggested, a mediator might help since it doesn't appear that two of the editors are getting along because of a long history of argument.” OK, so I ask you again: What resistance to mediation? Fifth, I think the questions should appropriately be: What is your resistance to working as a team? And: What is your resistance to being civil? Sixth, you state that you are interested in assuring that the “intellectual integrity of the article is maintained.”, but I have to question that also. So far since I have returned what I have observed you do is bicker, accuse, obfuscate, insult other editors, complain, disrupt the editorial and team environments, make illogical assumptions and arguments, and brag about your four degrees. There is no denying that you are book smart, but all the education in the world doesn’t prepare one adequately enough for a few things in life called cooperation, teamwork, professionalism, civility, consideration and compromise. Finally, your edits here are valued. Tony has said that, and I'm saying it now. Your contributions will make this article better and richer, but unless we work together in a civil manner "the intellectual integrity of the article" can not be maintained. Now, if you don’t mind, I am going to go edit this article --- this bull (and please note that I am not referring to fecal matter) that you that you insist on riding is too old for me to sit around on this talk page and continue to watch. As far as I'm concerned this rodeo show is over. Chicaneo 08:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Ramsey2006, my recommendation is that before we continue any further with this we all need to make (not take) the time to read Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons which is official policy, not merely a guideline. This page states "in a nutshell: Wikipedia articles can affect real people's lives. This gives us an ethical and legal responsibility. Biographical material must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality and avoiding original research, particularly if it is contentious." Also, " 'Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia.' – Jimbo Wales." The policy also requires a presumption in favor of privacy stating: "Biographies of living people must be written conservatively and with due regard to the subject's privacy. In case of doubt, the rule of thumb should be 'do no harm'. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. When writing about a person who is only notable for one or two events, including every detail, no matter how well-sourced, can lead to problems. In the best case, this can simply lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, this can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic."
It is my stance that we should leave the pared back version and scrutinize the un-reverted version for relevant material to be included that would not infringe upon the privacy of the Arellano's, in particular upon the privacy of Saul, a minor child, who by the way is innocent in all of this and he will remain innocent in all of this for the remainder of his life. Wikipedia is particularly sensitive about exposure to lawsuits. The un-reverted version, in my lay opinion, provided too much private information. There are bits and peices of relevant information in the Memorandum Opinion and Order that I am looking at now, but again, in my lay opinion, that does not warrant re-posting the entire un-reverted version all over again. My stance is still to keep the last version of what was considered neutral (in accordance with policy) and let's use this opportunity to start over, taking all of LordPathogen's previous suggestions and addition of new sources seriously, and work together to make this a good encyclopedic article. I will not change my position on this. Three of us had already agreed to revert the article and after reading Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons thoroughly and then going back and re-reading the un-reverted article I am convinced we made the right decision. I am also convinced that Evrik's revert was not illegal as LordPathogen states, but that it was our duty as ethical editors to make the revert. If LordPathogen is not willing to work with us as a team in this endeavor then we are obliged to work without him. c/s Chicaneo 07:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm getting a little tired of this nonsense. [7] Something needs to be done to put a stop it. I am nobody's sockpuppet. And I don't appreciate other editors comparing my comments with fecal matter, either. -- Ramsey2006 10:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
(1) The sentence U.S. Law does not recognize the right of sanctuary needs a citation. (2) Re the sentence that included 4.9 million - the 4.9 millon has been taken out and replaced with “millions”. This is because the estimate of 4.9 million was done by a representative of the Mexican Government. The 4.9 million figure should come from US records, perhaps census information. (3) Reference #12 the article by Jason Byassee was an opinion/editorial. In the spirit of NPOV I’m removing that link and all references to that link. Chicaneo 10:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
In light of the recent requests for mediation (rejected) and arbitration (rejected), and per User:Will Beback's recommendation for a RfC on the arbitration page, I am requesting comments regarding issues on which we have already reached consensus. Please note that I am not asking for comments on issues that editors feel need to be revisited, I am simply trying to compile a list of all issues on which we have reached consensus from November 2006 (date of first entry on talk page) to date. Once this is done, any editor is free to seek consensus change per Wikipedia:Consensus, which is official policy. All editors are expected to follow Wikipedia:Etiquette guidelines and any editor who engages in disruptive editing will be dealt with according to the Wikipedia:Disruptive editing guideline. It important to point out that on Wikipedia:Etiquette, Larry Sanger states “Show the door to trolls, vandals, and wiki-anarchists, who, if permitted, would waste your time and create a poisonous atmosphere here.” And that is what I intend to do. Chicaneo 10:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
* A consensus was reached that this article falls within the scope of
WikiProject Mexican-Americans. Discussion took place in the following sections: “Use of categories“, and “Scope of WikiProject:Mexican-Americans”.
Chicaneo 19:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC) strikethrough: --
Chicaneo
00:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Was a consensus reached regarding placing Elvira's name in Category:Mexican criminals? We had discusson under “Request for Comment: Use of categories Mexican American leaders, Mexican criminals and Fugitives as well as links to article Mexican Americans”. LordPathogen argued in favor of the category and Rockero and I stated that if someone put her name in that category we would not oppose it. No one else commented. I believe that was a consensus. Does anyone agree? Disagree? Chicaneo 23:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
OK - Then the consensus statement regarding the use of Category:Mexican criminals is:
* A consensus was reached that the article be taken back to the version of
20:36, 9 May 2007
Chicaneo
06:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
LAST CALL - The above list & discussions reflect the issues on which the editorial team has reached consensus to date. If I missed anything please add new consensus statements to the list here. I'll leave this message open for about a week to allow other editors time to comment/contribute. After a week or so I'll post a final consensus list referencing this section as our discussion regarding the consensus points. Thank you all for your comments.
Chicaneo
06:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Based on the above discussion the following terms of consensus have been reached to date:
-- Chicaneo 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The article states, in reference to Rep. Rush's bill to grant green cards to Arellano and 33 others, that
It is in fact unclear why Rep. Rush's bill, which explicitly enumerates the 34 people affected, would impact "millions of children" -- as a matter of fact, it is not even clear if there are in fact millions of children who were born in the US to parents who are threatened with deportation. Unless there is serious objection, I will remove this passage. Malatinszky 19:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Before this article goes off the deep end again ... please remember, we're trying to work by consensus. -- evrik ( talk) 17:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe someone can put this information in the article that the criminal, illegal alien has now been detained. [8] Die4Dixie 00:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The current sentence says that she is notable for living in the USA illegally. No time right now to check on what it used to say, but this makes about as much sense as saying that she is notable because of the number of books that she had overdue at the public library. It doesn't set her apart from millions of other undocumented folks who live out perfectly ordinary mundane lives in this country, and whose names have never appeared in print. Will somebody please check the history and find out what the old wording was and revert it? -- Ramsey2006 01:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 17 November 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Just wondering what exactly is POV about the section indicated as it is the same as when you guys wrote it a long time ago, except for me changing Immigration and Customs service to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. User:LordPathogen 16:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The example is the weight of all the edits, again it is prima facie. -- evrik ( talk) 18:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
User:LordPathogen has objected to my tagging their comments with the {{ spa}} template. My view: the edit history stands as proof, as well as last week's sock puppet banning and LP's blocking. -- evrik ( talk) 17:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
As the article on Wikipedia:Single-purpose account clearly states, "use of this tag is highly discouraged as it can be interpreted as a personal attack that may lead to action being taken against you." It also clearly states "There is, of course, nothing inherently wrong with single-purpose accounts. " I have explained multiple times to this user exactly why I do not edit several articles as he chooses to do. He still is not satisfied. As for the sock puppet issue, I still deny that was the case. Hypocritically, however, Evrik is more than willing, even eager, to brand me a criminal in Wikipedia yet seems utterly incapable doing so with the subject of this article who was convicted of a felony and has an outstanding order for deportation. No he removes those categories (Mexican Criminal, Fugitive) because they upset his POV. I consider this a personal attack upon me in an attempt by Evrik to sway public opinion rather than make cogent counter-arguements to my postings. If it continues, I will report him which isn't going to do much to help him get his coveted Wikimedia Board of Trustees slot. User:LordPathogen 18:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
As the article on Wikipedia:Single-purpose account clearly states, "use of this tag is highly discouraged as it can be interpreted as a personal attack that may lead to action being taken against you." It also clearly states "There is, of course, nothing inherently wrong with single-purpose accounts. " I have explained multiple times to this user exactly why I do not edit several articles as he chooses to do. He still is not satisfied. As for the sock puppet issue, I still deny that was the case. Hypocritically, however, Evrik is more than willing, even eager, to brand me a criminal in Wikipedia yet seems utterly incapable doing so with the subject of this article who was convicted of a felony and has an outstanding order for deportation. No he removes those categories (Mexican Criminal, Fugitive) because they upset his POV. I consider this a personal attack upon me in an attempt by Evrik to sway public opinion rather than make cogent counter-arguements to my postings. If it continues, I will report him which isn't going to do much to help him get his coveted Wikimedia Board of Trustees slot. User:LordPathogen 18:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the categories Mexican American leaders, Mexican criminals and Fugitives as well as links to article Mexican Americans should be used in this article.
Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
Therefore, I think it reasonable to use the categories "Mexican criminals" and "Fugitives" for this article.
As for the category "Mexican American Leaders," Admin Will Beback clearly directed (see above) that Ms. Arellano does not fall under the category Mexican Americans. Therefore, she cannot fall under the category "Mexican American Leaders."
As for links to "Mexican American," Ms. Arellano is a Mexican national only and does not fit the description of the category, only the much looser defined project. She fails the description set forth in the first line of "Mexican American" article, "citizens of the United States of Mexican descent." Seems misleading to readers not familiar with the Arellano article. They could rightly wonder why a "Mexican American" has problems with US immigration authorities. Any links to the "Mexican American" article should be on her son's page, since he is in fact a Mexican-American. User:LordPathogen 20:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
User:LordPathogen 22:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Now that the debate has boiled down to just one over categorization, I thought I'd add my two cents.
The links for reference nos. 1 & 4 are not working properly. If somebody knows where they go (or has the time to look it up) could you please restore them? Thanks. 70.120.88.79 00:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (forgot to sign in again - Chicaneo) Chicaneo 08:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like to take this back to the version at 20:36, 9 May 2007. I am going to create a working draft Talk:Elvira Arellano/draft where we can add the sources added since then. This was the last point where I feel the article was neutral. -- evrik ( talk) 14:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
LP, as I have said in my posts to your personal talk page reversion to a more neutral version is a way to re-hash the issues, this time letting cooler heads prevail. Please bring the issues up once again so that we can work through them as a team. Because of my absence, I am not familiar with the previous issues but I will do my best to make sure that controversial edits become a win/win situation for everyone and thus the article will become better and richer. Chicaneo 16:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This contains a significant amount of material (especially pages 3-7) that was removed by user User:Evrik when he unilaterally reverted the article back a month. Read it and decide for yourself as to whether this data should be included or not... -- LordPathogen 15:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Right now it is Sunday, June 10, 2007 12:33 p.m. CST. I will look at the brief and the corresponding sections and evaluate it with strict NPOV in mind. BTW, I have two years post graduate work in Law. I attended law school while working 3/4 time as a law clerk for the now defunct Death Row Legal Defense Fund in Houston, Texas. I wrote appeals that were filed with the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals and Writs. of Cert. to the U.S. Supreme court. I AM NOT a lawyer, nor do I care to be. I do want to go heaven when it's all over. My eval and suggestions will be posted here no later than Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:00 p.m. CST. Chicaneo 17:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Here it is:
The question presented is whether material gleaned from the September 29, 2006 U.S. District Judge’s Memorandum Opinion and Order in Walter L. Coleman, as next friend of the minor child, Saul Arellano v. U.S. (specifically pages 3-7) and included in the unreverted version of the Elvira Arellano article should be included in the (reverted) version.
For purposes of making a comparison I have placed the following two versions side by side: Un-Reverted Version: Revision as of 09:26, June 8, 2007 Reverted Version: Revision as of 12:48, June 9, 2007
A few edits have been done to the article following the reversion, but these changes are all relatively minor.
There are bits and pieces from the Un-reverted Version that I believe should be included in the Reverted Version, but because of time constraints I do not have time to make suggestions right now. It has taken me this long to figure out how to do a table in HTML and plug in the text. Please see the discussion below titled “Proposal to submit existing disputes to mediation” specifically at my comments of 07:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC) regarding my recommendations on where the team should proceed from here.
I have placed spaces between the tables so that we can place our editorial comments there after each section. Chicaneo 21:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Comparison Between Un-reverted Version v. Reverted Version
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Intro: | Elvira Arellano (born 1975) is a Mexican citizen living illegally in the United States who, facing deportation from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, took sanctuary in the Adalberto United Methodist Church, of Chicago in August 2006. As of June 2007 she has not been removed from the church. She is considered a fugitive by U.S. authorities. [1] She is the president of La Familia Latina Unida (United Latino Family), a group that lobbies for families that could be split by deportation. [2] | Elvira Arellano (born 1975) is a Mexican citizen living illegally in the United States who, facing deportation from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, took sanctuary in the Adalberto United Methodist Church, of Chicago in August 2006. As of January 2007 she had not been removed from the church. She is considered a fugitive by U.S. authorities. [1] She is the president of La Familia Latina Unida (United Latino Family), a group that lobbies for families that could be split by deportation. [2] |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
History: |
On August 23, 1997, Arellano arrived at the Calexico Port of Entry on the Mexico/California border, attempting to enter the United States as a tourist using the name Sofia Escobar-Vela. She was denied permission to enter because she attempted to do so "by fraud or by willfully misrepresenting a material fact." [3] An expedited removal proceeding was conducted resulting in a removal order and Notice to Alien Ordered Removed/Departure Verification forbidding Arellano from "entering, attempting to enter, or being in the United States" for a period of 5 years. [3] Arellano signed the removal order Danna Miranda-Barreto. [3] Around August 30, 1997, she returned to the United States illegally and lived for three years in Oregon[1] where she met her son Saul's father. On December 18, 1998 in Toppenish, Washington she gave birth to Saul Arellano. [3] The whereabouts of Saul's father remain unknown since he abandoned Arellano three months into her pregnancy. Saul has never met his father and has no other relatives in the United States. [3] He is now seven years old and a United States citizen by virtue of having been born on United States soil. In 2000, Arellano moved to Chicago and worked as an airplane cabin cleaner at O'Hare International Airport [3] [4]. In 2002, following a post-September 11 security sweep, she was arrested for using the Social Security number of an 82 year old woman from Milwaukee, Wisconsin to obtain employment. Arellano signed a statement acknowledging her previous removal after which Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) gave her "an administrative warrant for her arrest based upon her prior removal and illegal reentry" as well as a "Notice of Intent/Decision to Reinstate Prior Order" in which ICE informed Arellano of their intent to reinstate her order of removal. [3] She indicated on the forms that she did not wish to make a statement contesting this reinstatement. Arellano was then released with an order of supervision pending the outcome of her criminal trial. She was convicted of the Social Security charge and on March 20, 2003 was sentenced to three years probation [4] that also included the conditions that if she is deported, she remain outside the United States unless the Attorney General of the United States grants her permission to enter and that she "comply with all directions of, and to provide truthful information to, her Immigration and Naturalization Service Officer." [3] |
Arellano entered the United States illegally in 1997[3], was apprehended and deported back to Mexico by the United States government[4]. She returned within days and lived for three years in Oregon[1].
|
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Just have time for a quick comment right now. I think that the "father remains unnamed", or something similar, is sufficient. The fact that he is not in the picture is perhaps relevant to the case, but once that is established further elaboration on the topic serves no useful purpose. -- Ramsey2006 03:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Deportation: |
Around August 12, 2003 the Chicago office of Immigration and Customs Enforcement sent Arellano a Form I-166 wherein it was stated she was "found deportable." [3] Due to health issues with her son, Arellano obtained support from the Illinois congressional delegation and on September 16, 2003, United States Representative Luis Gutierrez requested a deferral on her removal order by ICE. Deferral was granted until February 16, 2004. [3] On February 12, 2004, Arellano's attorney Chris Bergin asked for a six month extension of the administrative stay due to private bills filed in Congress on Arellano's behalf. ICE granted this and extended the administrative stay to August 16, 2004. On August 11, 2004, Mr. Bergin requested another stay, which was again granted by ICE changing her new removal date to August 16, 2005. On July 29, 2005, Congressman Gutierrez, along with Senator Richard Durbin and Mr. Bergin, requested an extension to the stay. The stay was granted and Arellano's new removal date was set for August 12, 2006. [3] Finally, on July 14, 2006, Mr. Bergin requested another extension of the stay, however this time, ICE declined to do so since Congress had adjourned without approving any of the private bills filed on Arellano's behalf. [3] Since her son's condition had improved, Senators Richard Durbin and Barack Obama stated there was nothing more they could do. [5]. Hence, at 9 AM on August 15, 2006, Arellano was ordered to appear before immigration authorities [1]. Instead, on that date she took refuge in the Adalberto United Methodist church in the Humboldt Park area of Chicago to avoid arrest and deportation. Since entering the church she has been quite vocal, stating "if she is arrested on 'holy ground,' she 'will know that God wants me to be an example of the hatred and hypocrisy of the current policy of this government.'" By her own account, Arellano is confident stating "I didn’t allow them to deport me" and that she has community support for her actions.[6] On September 29, 2006, U.S. District Judge Amy St. Eve dismissed a lawsuit filed on Saul Arellano's behalf by his mother's pastor, The Rev. Walter L. Coleman, wherein it was claimed that to deport Ms. Arellano would violate the constitutional rights of her son, Saul. In her order, the judge wrote "The question before the court is whether that hardship is of constitutional magnitude -- under any construction of the alleged facts, it is not." She further stated "Saul will not suffer any injury to his constitutional right to remain in the United States." [7] On November 14, 2006 in Mexico City, Saul Arellano, appeared before the Congress of Mexico [8]. The Mexican lawmakers passed a resolution to urge the United States government to suspend the deportation of Arellano and other parents of children who are United States citizens. [9] On May 3, 2007, Rep. Bobby Rush (D-IL) introduced H.R. 2182, which would grant legal immigrant status, with the possibility of applying for permanent residence status, to Arellano as well as to thirty-three other people.[10] The bill was referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary and (as of May 9, 2007) has yet to move out of committee. |
(there is no “Deportation” Section in this version - the text below is from the “History” section above)
Arellano was ordered to appear before immigration authorities on August 15, 2006. [1] Instead, on that date, she took refuge in the Adalberto United Methodist church in the Humboldt Park area of Chicago to avoid arrest and deportation.
|
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Impact: |
Arellano and her supporters assert that to deport her would be to violate the rights of her son Saul, a United States citizen, as he would be forced to be deported with her.[6] There are an estimated 4.9 million U.S. citizen children of illegal immigrants currently in the United States.[6] Critics of Arellano counter that she is exploiting her son in order to remain in the United States.[6] Latino advocates have highlighted this case as one of civil rights.[11] Arellano's right of sanctuary and her right to stay in the United States has been taken up by civil rights groups such as National Alliance for Immigrants' Rights, NCLR, LULAC, among others.[11] [12] In support, La Placita, a historic Los Angeles church, declared itself a sanctuary for any undocumented immigrant facing deportation, something it did during the 1980's for the first refugees from war-ridden Guatemala and El Salvador who escaped to California. [11] The U.S. government's position is that Arellano is free to take Saul with her to Mexico in order to keep her family together.[1] U.S. Law does not recognize the right of sanctuary. |
Arellano and her supporters assert that to deport her would be to violate the rights of her son Saul, a United States citizen, as he would be forced to be deported with her.[9] According to Mexico's Congressional Representative Jose Jacques, there are "more than 4.9 million children who have been born in the United States and whose parents live under the threat of deportation."[9] Critics of Arellano counter that she is exploiting her son in order to remain in the United States.[9] Latino advocates have highlighted this case as one of civil rights.[11] Arellano's right of sanctuary and her right to stay in the United States has been taken up by civil rights groups such as National Alliance for Immigrants' Rights, NCLR, LULAC, among others.[11] [12] In support, La Placita, a historic Los Angeles church, declared itself a sanctuary for any undocumented immigrant facing deportation, something it did during the 1980's for the first refugees from war-ridden Guatemala and El Salvador who escaped to California. [11] The U.S. government's position is that Arellano is free to take Saul with her to Mexico in order to keep her family together.[1] U.S. Law does not recognize the right of sanctuary On May 3, 2007, Rep. Bobby Rush (D-IL) introduced H.R. 2182, which would grant legal immigrant status, with the possibility of applying for permanent residence status, to Arellano as well as 33 other people.[13] The bill was referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary and (as of May 9th, 2007) has yet to move out of the committee. |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
See also: |
Illegal immigration to the United States Mexican American |
Illegal immigration to the United States Mexican American |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
External links: | (This version has no external links listed) | Legal Brief filed on behalf of Saul Arellano |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
Un-reverted Version | Reverted Version | |
Categories: |
Accuracy disputes Current events as of June 2997 Mexican people 1975 births Living people Latino civil rights activists Mexican Protestants Mexican American leaders |
Mexican people 1975 births Living people Latino civil rights activists Mexican American leaders Protestants |
PLACE COMMENTS HERE:
What do you say Evrik and Ramsey? -- LordPathogen 03:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The discussion and the issues are not moot because of the reversion. Evrik has initiated an opportunity for us to do it all over again, but to do it right this time. We'll have a fresh start with a concerted team effort towards NPOV. On controversial issues we can work towards win/win situations and the article will be better for it. But for us to be successful we all need to act professionally and be civil to each other. LordPathogen, I won't call you and Will locos if you won't make references to fecal matter and sockpuppetry and Evrik, you need to stop using that darned tag that is making LP so upset. If we can't do this then I'll agree to mediation. Does anybody else agree or am I the Lone Ranger on this one? Chicaneo 19:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
In looking through the talk page it looks to me like Evrik has been pointing out his POV objections all along. Similarly, you have complained about his POV as well. I'm not going to butt into it any further, this scrap belongs to ya'll anyway. So if you're not willing to give it a go with a larger editorial team willing to strive towards strict NPOV then suit yourself. I, for one, will keep on keepin' on. c/s 70.120.88.79 22:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC) (forgot to sign-in again) Chicaneo 22:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
First, I’m not going to argue with you about what I read. Second, from the content of your most recent posts to this article you don’t appear to be willing to work things out with anyone regardless of the terms of agreement. I will elaborate later as it is connected to my fourth point. Third, 90% of the time just you three? You are living in the past instead of in the here and now. Tony (the Marine) and I have provided you with encouragement and support on your personal talk page. Tony has provided you with support here on this talk page. Rockero, Tony and I have agreed with you on various issues on this talk page. I have assured you on your own personal talk page that I was committed to editing this and one other article as that is what my time allows. Fourth, resistance to mediation? Why is proposing that we try to settle things as a team and then use mediation if it doesn't work resistance to mediation? I said: we have an opportunity to “do it right this time. We'll have a fresh start with a concerted team effort towards NPOV. On controversial issues we can work towards win/win situations and the article will be better for it. But for us to be successful we all need to act professionally and be civil to each other. … “ (BTW, Ramsy2006 agreed. You declined.) I also said that if we can’t work together as a team “then I'll agree to mediation”. On your own personal talk page I stated: “As Tony suggested, a mediator might help since it doesn't appear that two of the editors are getting along because of a long history of argument.” OK, so I ask you again: What resistance to mediation? Fifth, I think the questions should appropriately be: What is your resistance to working as a team? And: What is your resistance to being civil? Sixth, you state that you are interested in assuring that the “intellectual integrity of the article is maintained.”, but I have to question that also. So far since I have returned what I have observed you do is bicker, accuse, obfuscate, insult other editors, complain, disrupt the editorial and team environments, make illogical assumptions and arguments, and brag about your four degrees. There is no denying that you are book smart, but all the education in the world doesn’t prepare one adequately enough for a few things in life called cooperation, teamwork, professionalism, civility, consideration and compromise. Finally, your edits here are valued. Tony has said that, and I'm saying it now. Your contributions will make this article better and richer, but unless we work together in a civil manner "the intellectual integrity of the article" can not be maintained. Now, if you don’t mind, I am going to go edit this article --- this bull (and please note that I am not referring to fecal matter) that you that you insist on riding is too old for me to sit around on this talk page and continue to watch. As far as I'm concerned this rodeo show is over. Chicaneo 08:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Ramsey2006, my recommendation is that before we continue any further with this we all need to make (not take) the time to read Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons which is official policy, not merely a guideline. This page states "in a nutshell: Wikipedia articles can affect real people's lives. This gives us an ethical and legal responsibility. Biographical material must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality and avoiding original research, particularly if it is contentious." Also, " 'Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia.' – Jimbo Wales." The policy also requires a presumption in favor of privacy stating: "Biographies of living people must be written conservatively and with due regard to the subject's privacy. In case of doubt, the rule of thumb should be 'do no harm'. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. When writing about a person who is only notable for one or two events, including every detail, no matter how well-sourced, can lead to problems. In the best case, this can simply lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, this can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic."
It is my stance that we should leave the pared back version and scrutinize the un-reverted version for relevant material to be included that would not infringe upon the privacy of the Arellano's, in particular upon the privacy of Saul, a minor child, who by the way is innocent in all of this and he will remain innocent in all of this for the remainder of his life. Wikipedia is particularly sensitive about exposure to lawsuits. The un-reverted version, in my lay opinion, provided too much private information. There are bits and peices of relevant information in the Memorandum Opinion and Order that I am looking at now, but again, in my lay opinion, that does not warrant re-posting the entire un-reverted version all over again. My stance is still to keep the last version of what was considered neutral (in accordance with policy) and let's use this opportunity to start over, taking all of LordPathogen's previous suggestions and addition of new sources seriously, and work together to make this a good encyclopedic article. I will not change my position on this. Three of us had already agreed to revert the article and after reading Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons thoroughly and then going back and re-reading the un-reverted article I am convinced we made the right decision. I am also convinced that Evrik's revert was not illegal as LordPathogen states, but that it was our duty as ethical editors to make the revert. If LordPathogen is not willing to work with us as a team in this endeavor then we are obliged to work without him. c/s Chicaneo 07:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm getting a little tired of this nonsense. [7] Something needs to be done to put a stop it. I am nobody's sockpuppet. And I don't appreciate other editors comparing my comments with fecal matter, either. -- Ramsey2006 10:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
(1) The sentence U.S. Law does not recognize the right of sanctuary needs a citation. (2) Re the sentence that included 4.9 million - the 4.9 millon has been taken out and replaced with “millions”. This is because the estimate of 4.9 million was done by a representative of the Mexican Government. The 4.9 million figure should come from US records, perhaps census information. (3) Reference #12 the article by Jason Byassee was an opinion/editorial. In the spirit of NPOV I’m removing that link and all references to that link. Chicaneo 10:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
In light of the recent requests for mediation (rejected) and arbitration (rejected), and per User:Will Beback's recommendation for a RfC on the arbitration page, I am requesting comments regarding issues on which we have already reached consensus. Please note that I am not asking for comments on issues that editors feel need to be revisited, I am simply trying to compile a list of all issues on which we have reached consensus from November 2006 (date of first entry on talk page) to date. Once this is done, any editor is free to seek consensus change per Wikipedia:Consensus, which is official policy. All editors are expected to follow Wikipedia:Etiquette guidelines and any editor who engages in disruptive editing will be dealt with according to the Wikipedia:Disruptive editing guideline. It important to point out that on Wikipedia:Etiquette, Larry Sanger states “Show the door to trolls, vandals, and wiki-anarchists, who, if permitted, would waste your time and create a poisonous atmosphere here.” And that is what I intend to do. Chicaneo 10:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
* A consensus was reached that this article falls within the scope of
WikiProject Mexican-Americans. Discussion took place in the following sections: “Use of categories“, and “Scope of WikiProject:Mexican-Americans”.
Chicaneo 19:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC) strikethrough: --
Chicaneo
00:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Was a consensus reached regarding placing Elvira's name in Category:Mexican criminals? We had discusson under “Request for Comment: Use of categories Mexican American leaders, Mexican criminals and Fugitives as well as links to article Mexican Americans”. LordPathogen argued in favor of the category and Rockero and I stated that if someone put her name in that category we would not oppose it. No one else commented. I believe that was a consensus. Does anyone agree? Disagree? Chicaneo 23:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
OK - Then the consensus statement regarding the use of Category:Mexican criminals is:
* A consensus was reached that the article be taken back to the version of
20:36, 9 May 2007
Chicaneo
06:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
LAST CALL - The above list & discussions reflect the issues on which the editorial team has reached consensus to date. If I missed anything please add new consensus statements to the list here. I'll leave this message open for about a week to allow other editors time to comment/contribute. After a week or so I'll post a final consensus list referencing this section as our discussion regarding the consensus points. Thank you all for your comments.
Chicaneo
06:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Based on the above discussion the following terms of consensus have been reached to date:
-- Chicaneo 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The article states, in reference to Rep. Rush's bill to grant green cards to Arellano and 33 others, that
It is in fact unclear why Rep. Rush's bill, which explicitly enumerates the 34 people affected, would impact "millions of children" -- as a matter of fact, it is not even clear if there are in fact millions of children who were born in the US to parents who are threatened with deportation. Unless there is serious objection, I will remove this passage. Malatinszky 19:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Before this article goes off the deep end again ... please remember, we're trying to work by consensus. -- evrik ( talk) 17:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe someone can put this information in the article that the criminal, illegal alien has now been detained. [8] Die4Dixie 00:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The current sentence says that she is notable for living in the USA illegally. No time right now to check on what it used to say, but this makes about as much sense as saying that she is notable because of the number of books that she had overdue at the public library. It doesn't set her apart from millions of other undocumented folks who live out perfectly ordinary mundane lives in this country, and whose names have never appeared in print. Will somebody please check the history and find out what the old wording was and revert it? -- Ramsey2006 01:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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