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Fritz Guy made the point in a WP:RS, and I have explained his point in my own words. tgeorgescu ( talk) 23:59, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Be advised... Ellen White did not write the Desire of Ages — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:6D52:E040:905C:75CB:D6A5:6706 ( talk) 06:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
So, yeah, Although not actively anti-Trinitarian
is a quote from a book published by Indiana University Press. It is not something me or another Wikipedian devised by themself.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
18:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
The WP:CITEd work is WP:RS. Now there are two possibilities: either she did not believe that Jesus was God since eternity past, or her major preaching work is a jumbled, irrational writing which makes no sense rationally. tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
And, if you don't believe me, here is her writing:
Extended content
|
---|
Chapter I. - The Fall of Satan. Satan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God’s dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God’s dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he 17 had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father’s will would be fulfilled in him. Satan was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of Heaven, his power and authority to be the same as that of God himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted; but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the height of God himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God, had shone especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied, and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, 18 which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into his unsearchable wisdom and ascertain his purposes in exalting his Son Jesus, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. Angels that were loyal and true sought to reconcile this mighty, rebellious angel to the will of his Creator. They justified the act of God in conferring honor upon Jesus Christ, and with forcible reasoning sought to convince Satan that no less honor was his now than before the Father had proclaimed the honor which he had conferred upon his Son. They clearly set forth that Jesus was the Son of God, existing with him before the angels were created; and that he had ever stood at the right hand of God, and his mild, loving authority had not heretofore been questioned; and that he had given no commands but what it was joy for the heavenly host to execute. They 19 urged that Christ’s receiving special honor from the Father, in the presence of the angels, did not detract from the honor that he had heretofore received. The angels wept. They anxiously sought to move Satan to renounce his wicked design and yield submission to their Creator; for all had heretofore been peace and harmony, and what could occasion this dissenting, rebellious voice? Satan refused to listen. And then he turned from the loyal and true angels, denouncing them as slaves. These angels, true to God, stood in amazement as they saw that Satan was successful in his effort to excite rebellion. He promised them a new and better government than they then had, in which all would be freedom. Great numbers signified their purpose to accept Satan as their leader and chief commander. As he saw his advances were met with success, he flattered himself that he should yet have all the angels on his side, and that he would be equal with God himself, and his voice of authority would be heard in commanding the entire host of Heaven. Again the loyal angels warned Satan, and assured him what must be the consequence if he persisted; that He who could create the angels, could by his power overturn all their authority, and in some signal manner punish their audacity and terrible rebellion. To think that an angel should resist the law of God which was as sacred as himself! They warned the rebellious to close their ears to Satan’s deceptive reasonings, and advised Satan, and all who had been affected by him, to go to God and confess their wrong for even admitting a thought of questioning his authority. |
Copyright notice: since she is long dead, her book is public domain. Evidence: https://ellenwhite.org/correspondence/184045
Why would God need a public ceremony to formalize an objective fact known since eternity past? It does not make sense that in her scenario Jesus was God from eternity past.
And she probably did not understand what "ontological reality" means: the doctrine of the Trinity defines ontology, i.e. what everything that exists is made of. In Trinitarianism, the idea that Jesus is God is not God's accidental (willful) choice, but an ontological reality: God simply could not choose not to be Trinity. God is made of Trinity, and cannot choose to be something else. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Sorry to say this, but in 1865, when she published Health, Or: How to Live she was mostly right to oppose medicines and physicians. But that holds no longer true today. She was right at that moment, but that does not make it an eternal truth.
Want "proof"? Examine the medical advertisements from Revised Handbook for Boys, 1927 edition. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Can someone chuck a redirection onto this page please (so she appears when you type 'E.G. White')? She is published as 'E.G. White' and i had to google the book name to find her wiki page. X Kempee ( talk) 10:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
There are a couple of lines on the article that I do not believe are properly sourced. The first in the lead says "White is considered a leading figure in American vegetarian history", the source given is the International Vegetarian Union website [1], but this source fails to support that claim. The IVU website is clearly an advocacy website, I do not oppose using this website on Wikipedia (it's useful for dates and other minor details) but it isn't a good reference to be using in the lead on a biography. It is not an academic source. We would need stronger sourcing here, preferably a work from a historian.
Ellen G. White did not write much on vegetarianism. She became a vegetarian in 1894, so she was only a vegetarian for the last ten years of her life. I wouldn't describe her as a "leading figure in American vegetarian history". I have not seen any good sourcing claim that. She was influential but "leading figure" is WP:OR here.
The other line that isn't properly sourced is "The most vegetarian church fellowship is in North America where over half of Adventists in North American are vegetarian or vegan." This is sourced to the website Christianity Today. The website does not list a source for its claim. I do not consider this source to be reliable for data on vegetarians.
Few Adventists are vegetarians as this source notes "Very, very few Adventists are vegetarians, even by the permissive definition of Lorna Linda University researchers (eating meat less than one day per week). Even in California, one of the oases of Adventist vegetarians-along with Scandinavia, Australia, and New Zealand investigators estimate only half the Adventists are vegetarians. Some 90 percent of Adventists live elsewhere, and are overwhelmingly not vegetarians". [2]
According to this review of the Adventist Health Study 2 [3] 36% of 96,000 Adventists sampled in North America were vegetarians (vegan and vegetarian). The claim that "over half of Adventists in North American are vegetarian or vegan" is not supported by any good sourcing. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 22:11, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
There seems to be a confusion with the institution she was involved in in Australia. The wiki page for the correct institution is at Avondale University but this page currently links to Avondale College, an Auckland high school. I just changed the same mistake in the page for Cooranbong but can't do so here. 121.75.119.210 ( talk) 08:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
The article makes the following claim:
"In her own opinion, Jesus did not begin as equal to God the Father but was at a certain moment promoted to equality with the Father, which triggered Lucifer's rebellion (as explained in her book Spirit of Prophecy) [End Quote]
This claim is clearly incorrect. Here is an actual statement from Ellen White that shows her view:
"There had been no change in the position or authority of Christ. Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation and his claims to equality with Christ had made necessary a statement of the true position of the Son of God; but this had been the same from the beginning. Many of the angels were, however, blinded by Lucifer's deceptions (Patriarchs and Prophets pg 38)
So, according to Mrs. White, Jesus was already equal to God the Father. He was not promoted to equality at a certain moment. The actual sequence of events that she presents (see Patriarchs and Prophets pg 35 onward) is that Lucifer became envious of the Son of God and he broke the perfect harmony of heaven by developing a disposition to serve himself. He purposed in his heart to dispute the supremacy of the Son of God. God the Father gave a statement publicly declaring His Son's position of equality with Himself. He did that so that all His creatures could know His will and guard themselves against Lucifer's sophistry. Instead of submitting to the will of the Father, Lucifer distorted this statement by lying to the angels and making it seem that a new position of authority had been given to Christ. Although many of the angels believed Lucifer's lie, this was not actually the case. The reality is that there had been no change in Christ's position or authority. Christ's position was the same as it had always been. It was only Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation that had made the statement necessary. Jems777 ( talk) 01:52, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Some scholars have denied that Ellen White was a major influence in the Adventist shift toward Trinitarian doctrine and have argued that early Adventism had neither an Arian, Semi-Arian, nor Trinitarian theology, but rather a materialist one. [1]
tgeorgescu, I'm curious about what you mean when you write "Trinitarian" or "Trinity". To aid in further communication about the article content, I have a few questions:
Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 18:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity ( Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') [2] is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: [3] [4] God the Father, God the Son ( Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature ( homoousion). [5] As the Fourth Lateran Council declared, it is the Father who begets, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. [6] [7] [8] In this context, one essence/nature defines what God is, while the three persons define who God is. [9] [10] This expresses at once their distinction and their indissoluble unity. Thus, the entire process of creation and grace is viewed as a single shared action of the three divine persons, in which each person manifests the attributes unique to them in the Trinity, thereby proving that everything comes "from the Father," "through the Son," and "in the Holy Spirit." [11]
This doctrine is called Trinitarianism and its adherents are called Trinitarians, while its opponents are called antitrinitarians or nontrinitarians. Christian nontrinitarian positions include Unitarianism, Binitarianism and Modalism.
Indeed. Here I want to explore what she said and believed. We need to get it right. Here is one quote about the matter:
There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. [14]
That's a pretty clear statement that supports her Trinitarian beliefs. Here is another:
The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. [15]
Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 04:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
A good PowerPoint presentation from Andrews University deals with the history of anti-Trinitarian and Trinitarian beliefs in the church and EGW's statements. It's not long and well worth reading. Download Ellen G. White and God: One, Two or Three? -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 05:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
(Continued below)
References
oxforddictionaries.com
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).def-lateran1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).thelogy-sanity
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Nature answers the question what we are; person answers the question who we are. [...] Nature is the source of our operations, person does them.
@ Valjean: I'm not reading the RS the same way: according to me, Bull is actually doubting that she wrote a "Trinitarian declaration". tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:18, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
He wrote that "one researcher was forced to conclude" there has not "been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to [1898], by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White." She was the lone exception.
"... one researcher was forced to conclude
that he was "unable to discover any evidence that 'many were Trinitarians' before 1898,nor has there been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to that date, by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White." [1]
"... one researcher was forced to conclude" there has not "been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to [1898], by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White."
"sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power." ( The Desire of Ages, p. 671 (1898).
BTW, the most authoritative source for her writings is the "Ellen G. White Estate" in Takoma Park, Washington, DC. Although much of what she wrote is published in books, they have everything she wrote at EGW Writings. The website has good search functions. This page is a good place to start for this topic: Table of Contents: Ellen White's Trinitarian Statements: What Did She Actually Write? Everything she wrote started with her handwritten notes, and those were then typed by her multiple secretaries, using several carbon copies. That means there were several copies of each original document, and many, if not most, of those copies got into circulation. My father had possibly the largest private collection in the church. When I was in college, I stayed with him in the summer and helped catalog his collection. It dominated the basement of our house. We had many carbon copies that had her signature or stamp. When I was 15 and my father was doing research for his doctorate, we visited the vault many times, so I've been in there where her writings are stored. There is a complete list of everything she's written, and the employees bring out the documents that are needed for research by scholars, authors, and others. There are branch research centers/archives/vaults located in many other places and countries. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 18:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
References
With Adventism's most articulate spokesmen so implacably opposed to the doctrine of the Trinity, it is unsurprising that one researcher was forced to conclude that he was "unable to discover any evidence that 'many were Trinitarians' before 1898, nor has there been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to that date, by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White."46 But even this is an overstatement. Although not actively anti-Trinitarian, Ellen White always carefully avoided using the term "Trinity," and her husband stated categorically that her visions did not support the Trinitarian creed.47
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Fritz Guy made the point in a WP:RS, and I have explained his point in my own words. tgeorgescu ( talk) 23:59, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Be advised... Ellen White did not write the Desire of Ages — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:6D52:E040:905C:75CB:D6A5:6706 ( talk) 06:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
So, yeah, Although not actively anti-Trinitarian
is a quote from a book published by Indiana University Press. It is not something me or another Wikipedian devised by themself.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
18:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
The WP:CITEd work is WP:RS. Now there are two possibilities: either she did not believe that Jesus was God since eternity past, or her major preaching work is a jumbled, irrational writing which makes no sense rationally. tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
And, if you don't believe me, here is her writing:
Extended content
|
---|
Chapter I. - The Fall of Satan. Satan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God’s dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God’s dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he 17 had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father’s will would be fulfilled in him. Satan was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of Heaven, his power and authority to be the same as that of God himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted; but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the height of God himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God, had shone especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied, and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, 18 which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into his unsearchable wisdom and ascertain his purposes in exalting his Son Jesus, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. Angels that were loyal and true sought to reconcile this mighty, rebellious angel to the will of his Creator. They justified the act of God in conferring honor upon Jesus Christ, and with forcible reasoning sought to convince Satan that no less honor was his now than before the Father had proclaimed the honor which he had conferred upon his Son. They clearly set forth that Jesus was the Son of God, existing with him before the angels were created; and that he had ever stood at the right hand of God, and his mild, loving authority had not heretofore been questioned; and that he had given no commands but what it was joy for the heavenly host to execute. They 19 urged that Christ’s receiving special honor from the Father, in the presence of the angels, did not detract from the honor that he had heretofore received. The angels wept. They anxiously sought to move Satan to renounce his wicked design and yield submission to their Creator; for all had heretofore been peace and harmony, and what could occasion this dissenting, rebellious voice? Satan refused to listen. And then he turned from the loyal and true angels, denouncing them as slaves. These angels, true to God, stood in amazement as they saw that Satan was successful in his effort to excite rebellion. He promised them a new and better government than they then had, in which all would be freedom. Great numbers signified their purpose to accept Satan as their leader and chief commander. As he saw his advances were met with success, he flattered himself that he should yet have all the angels on his side, and that he would be equal with God himself, and his voice of authority would be heard in commanding the entire host of Heaven. Again the loyal angels warned Satan, and assured him what must be the consequence if he persisted; that He who could create the angels, could by his power overturn all their authority, and in some signal manner punish their audacity and terrible rebellion. To think that an angel should resist the law of God which was as sacred as himself! They warned the rebellious to close their ears to Satan’s deceptive reasonings, and advised Satan, and all who had been affected by him, to go to God and confess their wrong for even admitting a thought of questioning his authority. |
Copyright notice: since she is long dead, her book is public domain. Evidence: https://ellenwhite.org/correspondence/184045
Why would God need a public ceremony to formalize an objective fact known since eternity past? It does not make sense that in her scenario Jesus was God from eternity past.
And she probably did not understand what "ontological reality" means: the doctrine of the Trinity defines ontology, i.e. what everything that exists is made of. In Trinitarianism, the idea that Jesus is God is not God's accidental (willful) choice, but an ontological reality: God simply could not choose not to be Trinity. God is made of Trinity, and cannot choose to be something else. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Sorry to say this, but in 1865, when she published Health, Or: How to Live she was mostly right to oppose medicines and physicians. But that holds no longer true today. She was right at that moment, but that does not make it an eternal truth.
Want "proof"? Examine the medical advertisements from Revised Handbook for Boys, 1927 edition. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
Can someone chuck a redirection onto this page please (so she appears when you type 'E.G. White')? She is published as 'E.G. White' and i had to google the book name to find her wiki page. X Kempee ( talk) 10:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
There are a couple of lines on the article that I do not believe are properly sourced. The first in the lead says "White is considered a leading figure in American vegetarian history", the source given is the International Vegetarian Union website [1], but this source fails to support that claim. The IVU website is clearly an advocacy website, I do not oppose using this website on Wikipedia (it's useful for dates and other minor details) but it isn't a good reference to be using in the lead on a biography. It is not an academic source. We would need stronger sourcing here, preferably a work from a historian.
Ellen G. White did not write much on vegetarianism. She became a vegetarian in 1894, so she was only a vegetarian for the last ten years of her life. I wouldn't describe her as a "leading figure in American vegetarian history". I have not seen any good sourcing claim that. She was influential but "leading figure" is WP:OR here.
The other line that isn't properly sourced is "The most vegetarian church fellowship is in North America where over half of Adventists in North American are vegetarian or vegan." This is sourced to the website Christianity Today. The website does not list a source for its claim. I do not consider this source to be reliable for data on vegetarians.
Few Adventists are vegetarians as this source notes "Very, very few Adventists are vegetarians, even by the permissive definition of Lorna Linda University researchers (eating meat less than one day per week). Even in California, one of the oases of Adventist vegetarians-along with Scandinavia, Australia, and New Zealand investigators estimate only half the Adventists are vegetarians. Some 90 percent of Adventists live elsewhere, and are overwhelmingly not vegetarians". [2]
According to this review of the Adventist Health Study 2 [3] 36% of 96,000 Adventists sampled in North America were vegetarians (vegan and vegetarian). The claim that "over half of Adventists in North American are vegetarian or vegan" is not supported by any good sourcing. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 22:11, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
There seems to be a confusion with the institution she was involved in in Australia. The wiki page for the correct institution is at Avondale University but this page currently links to Avondale College, an Auckland high school. I just changed the same mistake in the page for Cooranbong but can't do so here. 121.75.119.210 ( talk) 08:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
The article makes the following claim:
"In her own opinion, Jesus did not begin as equal to God the Father but was at a certain moment promoted to equality with the Father, which triggered Lucifer's rebellion (as explained in her book Spirit of Prophecy) [End Quote]
This claim is clearly incorrect. Here is an actual statement from Ellen White that shows her view:
"There had been no change in the position or authority of Christ. Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation and his claims to equality with Christ had made necessary a statement of the true position of the Son of God; but this had been the same from the beginning. Many of the angels were, however, blinded by Lucifer's deceptions (Patriarchs and Prophets pg 38)
So, according to Mrs. White, Jesus was already equal to God the Father. He was not promoted to equality at a certain moment. The actual sequence of events that she presents (see Patriarchs and Prophets pg 35 onward) is that Lucifer became envious of the Son of God and he broke the perfect harmony of heaven by developing a disposition to serve himself. He purposed in his heart to dispute the supremacy of the Son of God. God the Father gave a statement publicly declaring His Son's position of equality with Himself. He did that so that all His creatures could know His will and guard themselves against Lucifer's sophistry. Instead of submitting to the will of the Father, Lucifer distorted this statement by lying to the angels and making it seem that a new position of authority had been given to Christ. Although many of the angels believed Lucifer's lie, this was not actually the case. The reality is that there had been no change in Christ's position or authority. Christ's position was the same as it had always been. It was only Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation that had made the statement necessary. Jems777 ( talk) 01:52, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Some scholars have denied that Ellen White was a major influence in the Adventist shift toward Trinitarian doctrine and have argued that early Adventism had neither an Arian, Semi-Arian, nor Trinitarian theology, but rather a materialist one. [1]
tgeorgescu, I'm curious about what you mean when you write "Trinitarian" or "Trinity". To aid in further communication about the article content, I have a few questions:
Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 18:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity ( Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') [2] is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: [3] [4] God the Father, God the Son ( Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature ( homoousion). [5] As the Fourth Lateran Council declared, it is the Father who begets, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. [6] [7] [8] In this context, one essence/nature defines what God is, while the three persons define who God is. [9] [10] This expresses at once their distinction and their indissoluble unity. Thus, the entire process of creation and grace is viewed as a single shared action of the three divine persons, in which each person manifests the attributes unique to them in the Trinity, thereby proving that everything comes "from the Father," "through the Son," and "in the Holy Spirit." [11]
This doctrine is called Trinitarianism and its adherents are called Trinitarians, while its opponents are called antitrinitarians or nontrinitarians. Christian nontrinitarian positions include Unitarianism, Binitarianism and Modalism.
Indeed. Here I want to explore what she said and believed. We need to get it right. Here is one quote about the matter:
There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. [14]
That's a pretty clear statement that supports her Trinitarian beliefs. Here is another:
The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. [15]
Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 04:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
A good PowerPoint presentation from Andrews University deals with the history of anti-Trinitarian and Trinitarian beliefs in the church and EGW's statements. It's not long and well worth reading. Download Ellen G. White and God: One, Two or Three? -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 05:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
(Continued below)
References
oxforddictionaries.com
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help page).Nature answers the question what we are; person answers the question who we are. [...] Nature is the source of our operations, person does them.
@ Valjean: I'm not reading the RS the same way: according to me, Bull is actually doubting that she wrote a "Trinitarian declaration". tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:18, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
He wrote that "one researcher was forced to conclude" there has not "been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to [1898], by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White." She was the lone exception.
"... one researcher was forced to conclude
that he was "unable to discover any evidence that 'many were Trinitarians' before 1898,nor has there been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to that date, by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White." [1]
"... one researcher was forced to conclude" there has not "been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to [1898], by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White."
"sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power." ( The Desire of Ages, p. 671 (1898).
BTW, the most authoritative source for her writings is the "Ellen G. White Estate" in Takoma Park, Washington, DC. Although much of what she wrote is published in books, they have everything she wrote at EGW Writings. The website has good search functions. This page is a good place to start for this topic: Table of Contents: Ellen White's Trinitarian Statements: What Did She Actually Write? Everything she wrote started with her handwritten notes, and those were then typed by her multiple secretaries, using several carbon copies. That means there were several copies of each original document, and many, if not most, of those copies got into circulation. My father had possibly the largest private collection in the church. When I was in college, I stayed with him in the summer and helped catalog his collection. It dominated the basement of our house. We had many carbon copies that had her signature or stamp. When I was 15 and my father was doing research for his doctorate, we visited the vault many times, so I've been in there where her writings are stored. There is a complete list of everything she's written, and the employees bring out the documents that are needed for research by scholars, authors, and others. There are branch research centers/archives/vaults located in many other places and countries. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 18:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
References
With Adventism's most articulate spokesmen so implacably opposed to the doctrine of the Trinity, it is unsurprising that one researcher was forced to conclude that he was "unable to discover any evidence that 'many were Trinitarians' before 1898, nor has there been found any Trinitarian declaration written, prior to that date, by an Adventist writer other than Ellen G. White."46 But even this is an overstatement. Although not actively anti-Trinitarian, Ellen White always carefully avoided using the term "Trinity," and her husband stated categorically that her visions did not support the Trinitarian creed.47