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WP:LEAD is a guideline for the length of an article's lead section. Not only does it specifically state that exceptions may be made for long important articles, it is also (deliberately, I think) very vaguely worded, and so shoudl never be applied legalistically. The very fact that it describes an optimal length in terms of paragraphs, which are of variable length, shoudl give this away. The lead in this article is the length of three or four acceptably long paragraphs, and so could literally fit within the guideline simply by amalgamating paragraphs. However, to do this would be stupid, as it reads better this way. This is precisely the sort of reason why Wikipedia guidelines are usually applied with sensible flexibility. JPD ( talk) 14:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be the same length as the leads of most FAs, it's just broken into more paragraphs. Don't worry about it. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 23:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Is the photo at top of page really the best we can do? Passingtramp 09:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
(reduce indent) Love the NASA photo! Coincidence that she was visiting the states. :-P Real96 18:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
The royal family's website now (don't think it did before) has a page of downloadable images, including a good official one of the Queen. It says they're for use by "individuals, communities, charities, parishes and other non-commercial organisations". Does wikipedia class as a non-commercial organisation? If so, could we use the photo? The current one is good, but this one's more formal, and so perhaps more suitable. http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page5711.asp Passingtramp 12:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I find it absolutely impossible to believe that there is no decent photo of this woman that we can use on this page. This is probably the most photographed woman over the age of 50 in the world. Unschool 17:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The source of this article's quote "Her ancestry includes a wide range of European and even Middle Eastern and other Asian Royal Houses.[4]" is the unsourced quote "Queen Elizabeth II's ancestry is a multicultural panorama. German and Danish in the main lines, it also includes figures as diverse as Armenian princes, Mongol warriors and Muslim leaders." I don't have a problem with the assertion (virtually NO living human is not in someway connected genetically to widely-spaced populations throughout the world because of eons of migration and mixing), but a more reliable source is needed. Kemet
There are several references along the lines of 'the Palace says'; one understands that there will be statements from the Queen's 'office' and maybe 'the Palce says' doesn't need rerwording. However, 'Buckingham Palace is also reported to be considering giving the Prince more access to government papers' I think warrants a more formal label for the office at the Palace that's making the atatements (Is it always Buckingham Palace, how about Windsor, Balmoral etc?) -- Brenont 05:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Since when is Canada back under the rule of the UK? I was taught in school, and read on the Wiki under "Canada" that they are a democracy... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.42.35.210 ( talk) 15:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
The UK isn't a democracy, it's a constitutional monarchy, they just happen to share a lot of the same characteristics. (MJC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 18:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
From the wiki page on constitutional monarchy: "Although current constitutional monarchies are mostly representative democracies (called constitutional democratic monarchies..." Andrew McIntosh ( talk) 03:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I think to all practical purposes the UK operates as a democratic state, so i actually don't dispute what you say and i think constitutional democratic monarchy is a reasonably effective working description. However it is something of an oddity that we should satisfy ourselves with the assumption that Britain is a democracy simply because one third of the legislative power is a representative body, but this is more to do with definitions of Democracy, rather than the practical implications of British government which does follow the common usage understanding of a modern democratic state. (MJC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 14:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Canada is an independent sovereign state. The UK government has no power in Canada since the early 1980s. The UK and Canada do share the same head of state, which is only right and long may it continue. It is the main difference Canada has compared with the USA and is an important part of its identity. The country was founded by British loyalists who never wanted a republic. They were North American settlers loyal to the Crown. If you want to live in a republic then move to the USA. Canada is an independent British nation and will remain so! YourPTR! 06:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
-- Golden Phoenix 09:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
User:JPD, why do you keep reverting the addition of the Overseas Territories? Queen Elizabeth II is the reigning monarch of the OT's and the article completely omits this fact. As stated in British overseas territories, the OT's are "not part of the UK itself, although under UK sovereignty". Nor are they Commonwealth Realms.
If the article is going to enumerate Commonwealth nations such as Australia and Canada, then to be factually accurate it needs to either: (a) mention the OT's by name, such as Cayman, Bermuda, etc., (see list of UK OT's or (b) at least provide an inline Wikilink to British overseas territories, in the interest of Lead succinctness. I have been a resident of Bermuda for the past five years, and your insistence on omission of the fact that HM is the reigning monarch of Bermuda and the other OT's is an insult to Bermudians. HM is on our currency and postage, and the Royal Governor delivers the Throne Speech in Her name. I have corrected this once again.
Also, please explain why the article should ignore WP:CAP? JGHowes talk - 16:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
JGHowes talk - 19:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)Apart from the United Kingdom, Elizabeth II is also Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize,
andSaint Kitts and Nevis, and the British overseas territories, where she is represented by Governors-General. The sixteen countries of which she is Queen are known as Commonwealth Realms, and their combined population is 128 million
All of this discussion ignores one salient fact which makes the article correct: There is NO separate monarchy for the BOTs, either individually or as a group; they are under the UK's monarchy, even though they are not legally part of the UK itself. That is different from the other 15 Commonwealth realms, whose monarchies are legally independent and merely in personal union with that of the UK; any of them (even the UK) could leave that union by declaring another monarch, by independent changes in the law of succession which are subsequently invoked, or by abolishing their monarchy, though to date only the latter has happened. If any dependency of any Commonwealth realm belongs in this list, it is the Cook Islands, whose monarchy is de jure independent of New Zealand's, just as New Zealand's is from that of the UK. -- RBBrittain 13:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The Queen reigns in the Crown Dependencies as Queen of the United Kingdom, she also has the additional titles there: Lord of Man and Duke of Normandy but she still reigns as Queen of the UK just like in the BOTs. YourPTR! 06:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.97.101 ( talk)
Hi everyone. Although I'm an American, I admire the Queen and respect her, so with her recent trip to the states, I thought I would check out her article. This one thing really popped out to me: the second paragraph in the lead, which states: "Apart from the United Kingdom and its overseas territories, Elizabeth II is also Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, and Saint Kitts and Nevis, where she is represented by Governors-General. The sixteen countries of which she is Queen are known as Commonwealth Realms, and their combined population is 128 million."
Is it really necessary for the lead? According to WP:LEAD, leads are supposed to be short and summarize the article, and I don't know what the point of the above paragraph is in the lead. Maybe it could be put in the "Life as Queen" section, but as far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't go in the lead. Happyme22 03:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
De jure simply means 'in law'; literally 'regarding law'. According to law, the Queen is Head of State in the Commonwealth realms and in the United Kingdom. De facto means 'in fact', that is, 'for all practical purposes', but not accordingly to law. A de facto head of state would be one who governs practically but without due process of law, such as the leader of a coup or a usurper. Even when a country is presided over by a person acting as a regent, such as the Prince Regent George who became George IV, or a Governor-General in the Commonwealth Realms, the reigning Sovereign remains de jure Head of State. Tharkuncoll appears to misunderstand the technical distinction betweeen de jure and de facto Please let us not resurrect the awful discussion about who Elizabeth is really Queen of. It took up pages and created a lot of heat and bad feeling. If editors are proud to have Elizabeth as their country's sovereign, why can't they just share that pride?-- Gazzster 13:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}}
The Fourth Paragraph Reads: "She is presently the world's only monarch who is simultaneously Head of State of more than one independent nation. In practice, however, she personally exercises very little political or executive power, especially outside the UK, but not little enough."
I believe "but not little enough" should be omitted as it constitutes somebody's opinion, it was probably an appendage to an otherwise good sentence.
The Travels section reads "From 1953 to 1954 she and Philip made a six-month, around the world tour, becoming the first monarch to circumnavigate the globe." King David Kalakaua circumnavigated the globe in 1881.
From his wikipedia article "In 1881, King Kalākaua left Hawaiʻi on a trip around the world to study the matter of immigration and to improve foreign relations. ... The King first traveled to San Francisco where he was given a royal welcome. Then he sailed to the Empire of Japan ... He continued through Qing Dynasty China, Siam, Burma, British Raj India, Egypt, Italy, Belgium, the German Empire, Austria-Hungary, the French Third Republic, Spain under the Restoration, Portugal, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and back through the United States before returning to Hawaiʻi. During this trip, he met with many other crowned heads of state, including Pope Leo XIII, Umberto I of Italy, and Victoria of the United Kingdom. In this, he became the first king to travel around the world." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mitcheca ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC).
Mitcheca 05:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Historically indigenous? Except when it has been imported from the Netherlands, Greece, Germany, Denmark, Scotland or Normandy? What a crazy statement - please rewrite.-- Docg 23:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
While 'historically indigenous' is an awkward phrase, it is born out of a discussion in which many editors felt the special identification of the sovereign with the UK needed to be mentioned in the introduction. The phrase, and the entire sentence, is unecessary to the introduction. But for fear of provoking a long edit war, it is perhaps wise to discuss a substitute phrase on this page. I suggest 'however, she is more directly involved with the United Kingdom, where the Royal Family resides, and wher the Monarchy is historically identified with the Kingdoms of England, Scotland, and the former Kingdom of Ireland.'-- Gazzster 07:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please stop attempting the relegate the UK to just one of 16 realms. The monarchy is British. If you want separate pages for Elizabeth II of Australia, etc, then create them - but good luck with finding enough specifically Australian information to fill the article. TharkunColl 07:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Doc.We have had this exchange with TharkunColl and others before. I fail to see anything in the edit I have suggested that demeans the status of the United Kingdom. And his attempt to score points off the citizens of other monarchies ('good luck with finding enough specifically Australian information to fill the article'), is not only unmannerly, but puerile. I trust we don't need to go down this path again.-- Gazzster 09:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm moving this discussion here from my talk page -- G2bambino 16:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC):
What is wrong with admitting that the only place the Queen has a direct role in govt. - weekly meetings with the PM for example - is the UK? Signing one law in 1982, or whatever, does not constitute a direct role in govt. Indeed, the constitutions of the dominions specifically excludes a direct role, vesting such powers in the GG. I was attempting to make the wording more encyclopedic, because as it stands it's too informal. TharkunColl 16:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if it is necessary to be so hair-splitting in the intro. An introduction summarises a topic in the most general of terms.-- Gazzster 21:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I was absolutely bewildered to find the quote "In practice, she exercises virtually no executive power." What idiot wrote that in there? Its completely untrue. When she signs a bill, she exercises executive power. When she dissolves parliament she exercises executive power, when she appoints the Prime minister she exercises executive power! So to quote her using virtually no executive power is a gross under statement and a huge misjudgment. I'm quite sure none of you are actually involved in British central government and i am also quite sure not a lot of you are really up to scratch with your constitutional knowledge. Her Majesty is hugely involved with the running of government in the United Kingdom more than anyone actually realises. TJJ 1/8/07 17:10 (BST)
Stop attempting to demote the UK to just one amongst 16 places of which she is queen. This is not a legal treatise. Her involvement with the UK is qualitively different from those other places. This is all highly insulting to the people of the UK, who support the monarchy with their taxes - unlike anywhere else. TharkunColl 15:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, me too. We've already been through this. Let's remember that the versions we agreed upon did involve compromise on either side. The few editors who are protesting now did agree to the final edits (at least tacitly), didn't they?-- Gazzster 22:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl, that is something you simply cannot understand, can you? You are so convinced the Windsors belong by right to the British alone that you cannot recognise the legitimate attachment of many other peoples to them. OK, try and look at the royal family as many citizens of Commonwealth nations see them. I'm not asking you to agree or sympathise. Just try and understand. Countries like Australia, New Zealand, and Canada rightly pride themselves on their independence and sovereignty. Now, you talk about the struggle of the British people for freedom. You're rightly proud of that. Well, other nations have their history too, of which we're proud. And the British heritage, including the monarchy, has been part of that. Consider if the monarchy didn't exist. Where would be the cultural heritage of Britain? As you say, the United Kingdom has defined itself by hundreds of years of struggle for freedom. The monarchy has been part of that. Without the monarchy, the UK would have to radically redefine itself. Many of these sovereign monarchies who have Elizabeth II as their queen would face a similar dilemna; even more so, since they are young countries and do not have your history. Notice the number of Commonwealth or former Commonwealth nations that are now republics; India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ireland, etc. They all have centuries of tradition as peoples independent of Britain. Other nations do not have that history, but are proud of their sovereignty. In time they will probably become republics. My own country attempted to several years ago, but we are not quite ready yet. In the meantime, respect the dignity of these countries. Respect their independence, and the sovereignty of the queen over them. I am a republican at heart. The republic will come in time. In the meantime, why am I proud to own Elizabeth as the 'Queen of Australia'? Because she, not the United Kingdom, of which she happens to be queen as well, is the guarantee of Australia's sovereignty. -- Gazzster 23:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
(Reply to last post of TharkunColl) Yawn. Actually, your Parliament would find it hard to abolish the monarchy. The monarch would have to sign off on the Act of Parliament, right? And I think you'll find that according to the Statute of Westminster the deposition of the monarch would require the unanimous consent of all the monarchies. Indeed we do pay for the Queen of Australia. Aussie taxpayers pay for her visits, and the Governor-General, who is the Queen in Australia, is paid for out of the public purse. OK. I've said my peace. I've had enough.-- Gazzster 00:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl, the language you use in your first statement is a little condescending, but hey - I know what you're trying to say. But it's not simply a matter of it being 'nice'; sentimental, nostalgic. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II by the Grace of God, etc, etc, is Queen of other nations in law as well as fact.I don't know how you make this strange distinction between fact and law. Obviously, if HM is Queen of a nation in law, she is in fact also. Actually, you are quite correct. The monarchy is British. Elizabeth is Queen of the United Kingdom. The monarchy is also Australian, because HM is Queen of Australia in her own right. The monarchy is also Canadian, because she is Queen of Canada in her own right. The same goes for New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, etc, etc, etc. We are talking about separate monarchies. The monarchy is not a United Kingdom monarchy shared about.Why is it so difficult for you to understand that? Oh God, I'm getting a headache.-- Gazzster 09:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to thank you TharkunColl for showing us your true motives. You are not having difficulty grasping the concept of separate monarchies. You are not even willfully ignorant. You understand very well. You are contributing out of personbal motives biased in favour of an outdated (and irrelevant) Anglocentric world view. 'Presposterous'? 'It is little more than a legal fiction concocted to ease the tortuously long and drawn out process of the end of the British Empire'? That is not only ignorant, but grossly insulting. I am sad you cannot see why. If respond anymore, it will be on your talk page. -- Gazzster 10:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
At first I responded to this gem of a comment on his talk page, as I said, but I think it really needs to be repeated here:
OK. So from saying that the monarchies of the non-UK realms are true, but inferior, nay 'preposterous' monarchies, you are saying they are no monarchies at all. Let us put aside the issue of your ignorance. Let us put aside the issue of whether a monarch is any less a monarch because her realm is 'on the other side of the world'. (By your logic, HM is only half ruler of Gibraltar and hardly at all of the Falkland Islands) and ask ourselves how much influence the Queen has in the United Kingdom? Not a lot, I suspect.-- Gazzster 10:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
And Prince Harry dressing as a Nazi makes Australia 'no monarchy' how?-- Gazzster 11:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Once again you show your ignorance. We have our own monarch. She's called Queen of Australia. Gee! We even have an article about her. Following your logic, HM is Queen of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Mann and the Channel Islands 'in name only.'-- Gazzster 11:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Mate, I know what you're saying. You are saying that the monarchy plays a greater public role in the UK than elsewhere. That has never been in dispute on this page. In fact, the article was edited to show it. But you have stated on this page that my country is 'no monarchy.' You have publicly insulted the non UK monarchies. Kindly recognize that HM is dear to many nations, not just your own. Practically she plays an important part in the Australian Constitution. Without her, Australia would not exist. You can't get any more practical than that. And for the record, she is a 'figurehead' in your country too.-- Gazzster 12:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh my God, this is just too easy. As to your first sentence, I repeat: that has never been in dispute. Can't take yes for an answer, can you? As to the second, the Queen of Australia is Head of State of Australia (see Australian Constitution. So yes, if the Queen ceased to be Queen of Australia, the realm of Australia would cease to exist. If the UK abolished the monarchy, it would cease to be the Kingdom of the UK, wouldn't it? It would become another entity. And I repeat my accusation, you have accused Australia, and, by implication, other monarchies, as being 'no monarchies'. Do you stand by that?-- Gazzster 12:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's 10 pm here, and I'm getting tired, but really, your ignorance continues to astound. But I should be grateful I suppose that you have retracted the absurdity that my nation is 'no monarchy.'Kindly define a monarchy 'in name only'. I'm not familiar with that term in constitutional law. We are 'already a republic'? I see. You'd better email the G-G and John Howard. I don't think they know yet. And for your information, our GG is not 'appointed by elected ministers'; he or she is appointed by the Queen of Australia on the advice of the PM. -- Gazzster 12:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
And how am I to define the government of my country? By the Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom Talk Page? Of course I'm going to refer to my nation's constitution. And there you again demonstrating an ignorance of the constitutional law of other realms. As I have already said, the GG is not appointed by elected reps, but by the Queen of Australia upon the advice of the PM. That the Queen of Australia following the advice of the PM makes Australia a republic, how? Would you rather she didn't?-- Gazzster 13:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Your first statement: I agree. I would not want the Queen of Australia to veto any act of the PM of Australia or the Parliament of Australia. I presume you would say the same for the Queen of the UK and the PM and Parliament of the UK. So if you expect the Queen of the UK to follow the advice of her elected ministers, does that make the UK a practical republic? You're a little confused, I think. As to your 'personal prefertence', that is perfectly irrelevant for this article. Thanks for admitting that.-- Gazzster 13:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
As an Englishman, and proud of it, I can see no problem with head of 16 states as intro currently stands. She is my Queen, but I am more than happy to shere her with all who recognise her. thanks. (Bilbobee away from home, forgot to sign)\
You are a just and magnaminous man, Bilbobee.-- Gazzster 13:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't recall asking for your opinion. I do remember you dictating it to me.'Facts do not necessarily conform to law'? Then do you suggest this article avoid questions of law when it conflicts with what you have already admitted is your personal opinion? What your discourse about the Queen of the UK's reserve powers has to do with the debate I do not know. -- Gazzster 13:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of TharkunColl's comments are completely irrelevant, because he is addressing the question from the point of view "Why should all these indepedent countries want to have the Queen", whereas an encyclopedia simply reports the fact without commenting on whether it is logical or not. It does not matter whether users approve of the constitutional arrangements, simply whether the article correctly reports them. It is true that there is a good argument that Australia is a "crowned republic", and that the crown is less important there than in the UK, but not that the crown is not relevant at all. JPD ( talk) 19:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is 100k – far over the desired article size. I propose splitting off at least the entire "Life as Queen" section to Elizabeth II's life as Queen or something of the similar. If there are no objections in the next three days I'll make the split. Suggestions for a better new article name would be nice too.
I've already moved the "Personality and image" section to Personality and image of Queen Elizabeth II, as that was less controversial than my above proposal. -- Fbv 65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 22:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is a quote from the PM of Canada in 1953 [1]:
"Her Majesty is now Queen of Canada but she is the Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the United Kingdom. . . It is not a separate office .. it is the sovereign who is recognized as the sovereign of the United Kingdom who is our Sovereign. . ." Hansard. February 3, 1953, page 1566.
A very frank and interesting statemant that flatly contradicts a great deal of the nationalist POV that has been incessantly pushed around here. The Queen is Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the UK. It is not a separate office. TharkunColl 12:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
"I am perfectly prepared to concede, even happily affirm, that the British Crown no longer exists in Canada, but that is because legal reality indicates to me that in one sense, the British Crown no longer exists in Britain: the Crown transcends Britain just as much as it does Canada. One can therefore speak of "the British Crown" or "the Canadian Crown" or indeed the "Barbadian" or "Tuvaluan" Crown, but what one will mean by the term is the Crown acting or expressing itself within the context of that particular jurisdiction... But there is a danger that this concept of the "divisibility" of the Crown, which, given the manner in which the legislative independence of the Queen's realms in the Commonwealth has developed, I must admit is a fact, can lead to the idea that the Crown is at present "divided". This is not true, but it would immediately become true if, let us say, an alteration were to be made in the United Kingdom to the Act of Settlement 1701, providing for the succession of the Crown. It is my opinion that the domestic constitutional law of Australia or Papua New Guinea, for example, would provide for the succession in those countries of the same person who became Sovereign of the United Kingdom. But this would not be true in Canada. There is no existing provision in our law, other than the Act of Settlement 1701, that provides that the King or Queen of Canada shall be the same person as the King or Queen of the United Kingdom. If the British law were to be changed and we did not change our law..., the Crown would be divided. The person provided for in the new law would become king or queen in at least some realms of the Commonwealth; Canada would continue on with the person who would have become monarch under the previous law..."
How about this legal ruling from 2003 (my bold, see link above):
In the present case the court is being asked to apply the Charter not to rule on the validity of acts or decisions of the Crown, one of the branches of our government, but rather to disrupt the core of how the monarchy functions, namely the rules by which succession is determined. To do this would make the constitutional principle of Union under the British Crown together with other Commonwealth countries unworkable, would defeat a manifest intention expressed in the preamble of our Constitution, and would have the courts overstep their role in our democratic structure.
So there you have it. TharkunColl 15:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have said nothing about Canada being subservient to the UK. But the Canadian monarchy is an adjunct of the British monarchy. It is surely only nationalistic pride that refuses to allow you to see this, and that has no place in an encyclopedia. TharkunColl 15:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The only editor who continues to object in this matter is TharkunColl (GoodDay objects also, but respects the discussion we have previously had on this page). I hardly think mediation is necessary for TharkunColl's sake. In fact he has shown himself to be insulting to the non-UK monarchies. He has found himself pursuing nonsensical and contradictory arguments. With G2bambino he has argued that the Canadian crown is part of the UK Crown, and then said the former is not inferior to the latter. He cannot have it both ways. In an exchange with myself a week ago he said that non-UK monarchies were 'preposterous' monarchies. He later went on to say that were 'no' monarchies at all. Then he implied that the validity of a monarchy depended upon the distance of a nation from the place she resides. He described Australia as a republic on the basis that the Queen of Australia is a figurehead there and respects a democratically elected government. Then he realised that he had just described the UK monarchy as well! On top of this, the UK is the supreme monarchy, apparently, because Prince Harry has dressed as a Nazi and the Princess Royal runs up parking tickets there. When forced to pursue his own arguments TharkunColl trips over himself and is forced to contradict himself. And he has stated on this page that his arguments about the superiority of the UK Crown are his own personal arguments. I do not think we should allow TharkunColl to hijack this discussion. We have talked about this. We have settled on an edit which acknowledges the special role of HM in the UK. The edit is accurate and fair. Let's stick to it.-- Gazzster 21:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I think you mean to say, 'you didn't give me the answers I wanted.' And I do not trivialise. That is what your arguments sound like. And isn't it hypocritical to accuse me of that when you 'trivialise' the dignity of 15 sovereign nations, many of whom are represented by editors on this page? If you're waiting for an answer, this article is about Queen Elizabeth II. Her full-time job is being Queen of 16 realms. No, she isn't part-time monarch of Australia and Canada. If you need to continue, I invite you to go to my talk page.-- Gazzster 04:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
My point is that mediation should not be necessary on the basis of one editor's disruption. Editors simply need to show a common face in favour of the agreed upon edits. Taking administrive action only gives the attention he wants.-- Gazzster 22:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I think most, if not all non-UK Commonwealth realms have the Act of Settlement as part of their constitutional law. At least, I know that is the case in Australia. That would mean that only a non-Catholic descendant of Electress Sophia Dorothea of Hanover, whose spouse was not Catholic could succeed, as in the UK. Of course, any sovereign nation could legislate to choose any monarch it wanted. Any change concerning the succession of the common monarchy would require the agreement of all the realms, according to the Statute of Westminster. But I suppose any realm could unilaterally annul the Statute of Westminster. After that, who knows? An interesting hypothetical scednario. -- Gazzster 05:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Good call, mate. SD was the mother of George I.-- Gazzster 22:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Right again. George's mother was Sophia of the Palatinate?-- Gazzster 23:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
It was true when the PM said it but it isnt now. Since then the UK lost its last remaining legal links to Canada and the Canadian Crown became patriated in law in 1982.
If the Queen's role as Queen of Canada, Australia, etc. really is completely distinct from her role as Queen of the UK, then why wasn't she crowned as such? Those places weren't even mentioned during her coronation. TharkunColl 13:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it isn't ambiguous. It is a matter of law and practice.Now it would be impractical and ridiculous to crown the monarch 16 times with 16 different crowns. The poor woman wouldn't be out of the abbey until the evening.In any case, most monarchs these days aren't crowned- the UK monarchy is about the last to have a coronation. The rite of coronation is just that, a ceremony, and does not actually make a monarch. So no coronation does not mean no monarchy.-- Gazzster 21:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that all her titles should be included. And I do not recognize that this article needs to be summarised. I particularly enjoyed this article, and condensing it would remove a lot of detail.
125.239.6.184
04:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
If the Queen is equally the Queen of the other realms as she is of the UK, as some have suggested, then wouldn't it be more likely for Charles to be crowned in a country other than the UK? Of course not! He will first be King of the UK, and then of the other nations. Jleonau 07:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
My point is that if the relationship between the monarch and each realm were equal, then it would be less likely (chance 1 out of 16) for the next monarch to be coronated in the UK than it would be for him to be coronated somewhere else (chance 15 out of 16). Jleonau 12:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I know I'm only an American, but it seems to me as an outsider with no natioanl agenda to push that the phrase "Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith" is a good compromise. Listing all 16 crowns she holds would be a bit much. And while she is Queen of all sixteen Commonwealth monarchies, it is also true that her historical homeland, the land of her ancestors, and the land where the crown originated is the UK. So the phrase noted above seems like a fair compromise. Just the opinion of a lowly Yank, and since Bush no one likes us anymore anyway. ;) RockStarSheister ( talk) 21:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems that since it's her official title, it's the best solution. I think people in commonwealth countries/former colonies are being a bit too touchy about this entire subject. RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Gosh, you sure are mistaken, but I'll give you points for being proud of your country. Calling Elizabeth the Queen of the UK and her other realms and territories is infinitely more sensible than calling her Queen of Tuvalu. Does she live in Tuvalu? Did her father George VI, or grandfather George V, or great-grandfather Edward VII? Does she speak English with a Tuvalu accent? Did her coronation take place in Tuvalu? National pride is all fine and dandy but let's not be blinded by it. With regard to the Commonwealth of Nations, the UK will always be Primus Inter Pares, first among equals. Did Tuvalu export its language to the UK or was it the other way around? Did the traditional Tuvalu monarch become monarch in the UK, or does the tradional UK monarch reign in Tuvalu? A little common sense goes a long way in situations like this. I can go anywhere in the world and mention Queen Elizabeth of the UK and people know who I mean. If I were to mention Queen Elizabeth of Tuvalu, they would ask who is she, some local monarch or tribal queen? That may not be politically correct, but that's what the reaction would be. I'm not going to discuss it anymore, as national pride seems to be blinding your common sense. RockStarSheister ( talk) 06:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Next time you want to argue against what I write, I suggest you actually read my words. If you had, you would see that I did not deny she is Queenof sixteen nations. What I said is that her role in the UK is more important than her role in the other nations. The Prime Minister of only one of these sixteen nations meets with her on a regular basis. Care to guess which one? Hint: It isn't Canada or Vulatu RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Once again, you have failed to read my words correctly and you are arguing against a point I did not make. I never said the UK was more important than any of the other fifteen nations she reigns over. I said (and read this carefully lest we go through deja vu all over again) that her relationship with the government of the UK is more important than her relationship with the government of the fifteen other realms. That is not an opinion, it is a fact shown by such things as her weekly meeting with PM of the UK and her daily perusal of "the box" containing state papers (overwhelmingly concerning the UK). Therefore, her reign over the UK is more significant, and yes more important, than her reign over the other nations, which tends to be more in name only as opposed to the more active role she plays in the government of the UK. I never said the UK itself was more important than any other nation. Stop being so defensive. RockStarSheister ( talk) 23:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not see any criticism here. And is not her real last name Saxe-Coburg-Gothe. Where is the mention of how the whole familiy is really German? Xavier cougat 16:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
"Also in 1992, part of Windsor Castle was seriously damaged by fire. An announcement that the approximately $100 million needed to repair the castle would come from public funds set off a furor about the monarchy’s exemption from the tax code. As a result the queen and Prince Charles agreed to pay income taxes on their personal income, the first time the monarchy has done so"
How about 'QE had not paid taxes until 1992 when a public furor occurred after the announcement that public funds would pay for the Windsor Castle that was damaged by fire. After the public's reaction QE agreed to pay taxes'?
hi, This is a wrong piece of information which could be misleading to the readers. Pakistan got its independence from British Empire on August 14, 1947.
Hence why you will never find a post box in Scotland with QEII (or QE2) as a mark - they are all shown as a Crown !!
She's been on the throne 50+ years. Of course its going to be a long article. Whats wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing. But what section are to commenting on? And please sign your contributions, which are welcome.-- Gazzster 12:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
She is currently the third longest reigning British monarch after Victoria, who reigned for sixty-three years and George III, who reigned for fifty-nine years.
And what about Henry III of England, and James VI of Scotland? The above statement is misleading at best, and simply false at worst. TharkunColl 18:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
It is misleading to refer to Britain as 'a continuation of the English state'. Britain was a forced amalgamation of Scotland and Ireland with England, which was the strongest of those states.Scotland and Northern Ireland retain their separate identities, even more so in these days of devolution, and it is certainly not correct to identify these nations with England.-- Gazzster 23:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Um, returning to the point: the issue isn't whether or not the "third-longest" statement is *factual*, it's whether or not it's *useful*. I think a strong case can be made that including Henry III and James VI are is useful, so I'll do so (making sure to use unambiguous wording, of course).
Doops |
talk
05:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
No you didnt. But associating them with a list of long reigns of British monarchs was irrelevant and confusing. Your latest edit is fine.-- Gazzster 07:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
For once, Sir, I agree with you. Cheers!-- Gazzster 07:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
It's extraordinary the things we end up debating, isn't it?-- Gazzster 08:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
No worries, mate. You're cool!-- Gazzster 08:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Not all Scottish institutions were abolished, and as an administrative unit Scotland remained distinct from England. Scots Gaelic was widely spoken and the Scots used their own dialects of the English language. The clan system was not abolished in 1707, though it was bloodily repressed after the Jacobite Wars. Scottish law remained distinct from English law. The monarch in Scotland is not head of the Scottish Church. Scotland had its own Secretary of State in London until 1999. Since then it has its own executive and Parliament. Likewise, England, and for that matter, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and Man are distinct political entities with their own laws, customs and institutions. True, the Crowns of these different entities have been merged into one: the Crown of the United Kingdom. But let's not confuse the single Crown and the several, distinct states under the crown. They remain distinct. They have not been absorbed by England.-- Gazzster 13:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I did not say they were separate nations. I said they were 'distinct states' or 'entities'. And I clearly made the point that they are united under one crown; not absorbed by England. You apparently agree with me. -- Gazzster 21:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Gosh, all this is so needlessly complicated; there's so much barking up a wrong tree. All the sentence is trying to do is talk about length of reign. The fact that the constitutional status of his territories altered during the course of George III's life doesn't mean that the poor guy had two reigns: he had one. He didn't stop reigning one day and start again the next; he kept reigning. Furthermore, there's really no need to rehash the whole series of constitutional changes here on the talk page: I'm pretty sure we all know it like the back of our hands. The point is, although these changes certainly occurred, and although they are certainly important, they don't amount to a blank slate starting all over again. There was lots of continuity (in laws, in institutions, in regnal numerals, etc.) during each change. I don't see why so many people are unwilling to grasp the quite simple concept of a successor state.
The point is this: we want to talk about length of time reigning. Did George III reign longer than Elizabeth II or not? Of course he did. If we don't say so, we're muddying the waters pointlessly. By all means, let's use accurate language; I would never advocate inaccuracy. But the length-of-reign sentence should be about length-of-reign, not obsessed with constitutional questions. Doops | talk 17:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Ideally we should follow, in this matter as all, the KISS principle whenever we can, for a couple of reasons; to avoid cumbersome renderings; to avoid getting into long discussions over relatively unimportant points. The statement as it stands is OK. But really, the only intention of the paragraph is to inform readers that EII is one of the longest reigning monarchs of Britain. To be really simple, it would only be necessary to say something like, 'Elizabeth II is one of the longest reigning monarchs of Great Britain. She has reigned for ----years. Only Victoria (---yrs) and George III (---yrs) have longer reigns.' I believe the original statement was as simple as this. But we had to complicate it by references to James VI. Henry III, etc. I really do not think the public needs this additional information (certainly not in an introduction) & is likely to be confused by it.-- Gazzster 22:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Look, I can certainly see how one could include those two sovereigns (and others) but to do so strays unecessarily into contentious waters. Look how much time we spent on the topic. I admit, I have been an offender in this matter. But Ive said my piece. I dont want to rake it up again.-- Gazzster 02:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Good point m8!-- Gazzster 04:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I think people should stop referring to the UK as a continuation of the English state. Regardless of what one's personal views are, it was techincally a union of the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland to form the Kingdom of Great Britain which later becomae the United Kingdom. To incorrectly call the UK a continuation of the English state is unfair and insulting to all Scots. Yes, I know parliament is based in London, but I might counter with the fact that James VI, the Scottish monarch, claimed the English throne. An English monarch did not claim the Scottish throne. Technicalities such as this can be argued as infinitum, so why not in the future refer to the union as it truly was, a union of kingdoms and not the takeover of one kingdom by another? RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I have a question: why were the mentions of the Queen awarding former American Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Buah, as well as former Polish Leader Lech Walesa, the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath removed? I think that saying that would greatly enhance the "Relations with foreign leaders" section, for it demonstrates not just a friendly relationship with the Queen, but a working relationship also. I propose adding that back in, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this page first. Best, Happyme22 16:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that Andorra is not actually an independent nation, but is a joint protectorate of France and Spain. Rather like Monaco being a French protectorate, and San Marino and Vatican City being Italian protectorates. TharkunColl 15:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Andorra is most certainly an independent and sovereign state. While the Heads of State are the President of France and the (Spanish) Bishop of Urgell, these positions are merely the ceremonial heads of state, not the head of government, who is an Andorran politician. To not consider Andorra an independent nation because of this technicality would be akin to saying that Canada or New Zealand are not independent countries because Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is head of state in those two countries. The misunderstanding is a common one, but to put the matter to rest, Andorra is without doubt a sovereign state, as the UN website, Andorra's website, and any encyclopedia will tell you. RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Having reviewed G2bambino's equal status for commonwealth nations edits (here and at relating pages). Doesn't it all seem to contradict this page's title? Wounldn't G2's views, demand Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom be 'moved' to Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth? I'm not critizing, just seeking consistancy. Why is it both ways? GoodDay 19:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I see no issue with retaining the title, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom,as it is the realm most prominently associated with her in the public eye. True, as said above, Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth sounds like a title, which it isnt. She is Head of the Commonwealth. Similar, Queen of the Commonwealth Realms sounds as if it is a title. And it sounds as if the 'Commonwealth Realms' is a single political entity, like an empire or the United States. The present title of the article is fine.-- Gazzster 02:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This issue is having an impact on other pages related to Commonwealth Realms. It's not just a bit misleading, it is factually wrong to describe the "current monarch" of <non-UK realm> as "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" - she is "Elizabeth II of <non-UK realm>". "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth" also doesn't cut it -- there is no such title.
By far the simplest solution, IMO, would be to refer to her as Elizabeth II. That currently takes you to a redirect page that gets you here. I tried piping her through, which is effectively equivalent to this, but ran into the objection that there is a WP policy that links in DABlinks should be to the actual title of the article, and discourages pipes and redirects. Although there is also a policy allowing editors to override other policies if the particular circumstances warrant, and it seems to me completely justified to do so in this case, there was some disagreement about that. So I'm looking for another solution.
Looking at the WP history, the article about her started as a simple Elizabeth II. It was given the current title in April 2002. The justification was something to do with a WP policy on nomenclature, which I haven't seen. I imagine it says something like that an article about a monarch must be entitled "<monarch> of <somewhere>".
I think that decision was a mistake and should be reversed. This is one case (and historically there are others, e.g. some monarchs, like Demetrius I were peripatetic) where a single <somewhere> doesn't do justice to the case.
She is most commonly known as Elizabeth II, without qualification, and the name is completely unambiguous. There are no other monarchs of that name, nor are there likely to be so for a considerable time, if ever.
So, I propose moving this article back into Elizabeth II and turning Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom into the redirect. Any takers? -- Chris Bennett 17:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
As Ive said, I have no problem with the present title. But, if we must change it, Chris's suggestion is excellent. -- Gazzster 21:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish there were a way to make it possible for one page to display a different title depending on where it was linked from. That would make the name of this article so much easier.-- Ibagli ( Talk) 04:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
If we'll rename this article to Elizabeth II, Queen of the Commonwealth Realms, should we change Charles, Prince of Wales to Charles, Heir Apparent of the Commonwealth Realms? ― 韓斌/Yes0song ( 談笑 筆跡 다지모) 07:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not correct actually. The Prince of Wales is a title that has no meaning in Scotland, as the Principality of Wales was a principality of the Kingdom of England, and it remains as such hence England and Wales share a legal system whilst Scotland has its own. As such, yes the title of Prince of Wales is given to the heir-apparent of the UK, by tradition, but it does not denote this. The titles of Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothsay, Prince and Great Stewart of Scotland, and others are also given traditionally to the heir-apparent but again they do not officially denote the heir-apparent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.88.64 ( talk) 00:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Belize is an independent nation and does not have no queen! I've noticed that wikipedia puts a lot of false statements on their pages. Belize was once a british colony but that's no longer true. If anything, Belize is slowly becoming a Latino Caribbean country, as Spanish is becoming more dominant in the country. Please learn your history wikipedia!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.101.156 ( talk) 20:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC).
Don't spread rubbish - this is what the Belizean government has to say :
"Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is the constitutional Head of State. She is represented in Belize by a Governor-General, who must be a Belizean.
http://www.belize.gov.bz/ab_politics.html
-- Bluezy 20:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It says in this article that the crown lands are "technically the Queen's" - in fact they are only hers as Sovereign, like the Royal Collection or the Occupied Palaces, not personally.
I know this is somewhat tangential to EIIR, but User:TharkunColl has engaged himself in an edit war at Passport and started his "all the realms are under the British Queen" argument again at the related talk page. Rather than go through all this garbage yet again, could interested people please come and put a swift end to his incessant trolling? I started an RfC at Talk:Passport#Request for Comment: Passport. Cheers. -- G2bambino 23:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
G2bambino, valued editor as you are, I think it is an unwise move for you to bring your dispute from Passport to this or any other page.Especially as this particular page, having gone through several bloody edit wars, is now quiet and in peace. The language you use, such as 'garbage', 'incessant trolling' , and inviting others to become involved in a dispute on another page, could be seen as unhelpfully provocative.-- Gazzster 14:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The lead section of this article is in major breach of WP:MOS, and more specifically, WP:LEAD. I'm aware this article has been site to alot of dispute, but is it possible it could be streamlined/merged/cropped/copy-editted? Not least remove the dablink mid prose (!).
I'd rather not recieve replys saying the lead is "fine as it is", and "it's ok to be a mess because its a long, important, disputed and/or complex subject" - I cite Jesus, World War II, Universe, Islam, Evolution, George W. Bush as examples of comparably seminal articles with appropriate and policy-compliant leads. I'd just like to see a quality overview of the Elizabeth II article sooner rather than later. Jza84 01:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll bite: I've just made a first attempt to refocus the lead. Doops | talk 02:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this important for the Queen?-- Oliver s. 14:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Now my English history is very shakey but I'm pretty sure that the Tudors ousted the Yorks anyway and so even had Edward been replaced with George, the Tudors still would have lead to our own dear queen.
Scroggie
20:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Dick Cromwell was the 'ruler/former ruler' who lived the longest (nearly 86). However at the time he 'ceased to be' ruler, Cromwell was about 33. A similiar thing occurs with the American Presidency longevity trivia. Is there a better way, we can include young ruler Cromwell? GoodDay 22:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I like the context section, however I slightly take issue with "As other colonies of the British Empire (now the Commonwealth of Nations)...". I'm not sure you can really say the British Empire is 'now the commonwealth of nations'? Most of the members of the commonwealth were indeed in the British Empire, but I think too strong a link is implied. Passingtramp 12:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There is one nation Mozambique which was not a colony according to Commonwealth of Nations, so as a general description it's accurate enough it seems to me. David Underdown 12:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC
Youre right, the statement is incorrect (and unsourced, I might add).The Commonwealth of Nations is not a replacement of the BE. In fact it was created to move away from from the idea of empire. The source of unity of the Empire was a common sovereignty under the British Sovereign. The source of unity of the Commonwealth of Nations is a free spirit of association of cooperation under Elizabeth as Head of the Commonwealth. Countries which have never been part of the Empire may apply for membership.-- Gazzster 00:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Then to avoid the interpretation I suggest my latest edit stands.-- Gazzster 10:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Her Majesty is not simply called Elizabeth, that would be disrespectful and quite wrong. Surely this article should be at least, renamed "Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom", rarely in this article is the Queen referred to as the Queen of the United Kingdom, but quite often as the Queen of the Commonwealth Realms, firstly the Queen holds sovereignty of Britain seperately from the Commonwealth Realms, only after the monarch at the time who conquered or fought in other countries named that country a member of the British Empire, which then became Commonwealth Nations and now Realms, the Queen is first and foremost the Queen of the United Kingdom and so this article should set this clear from the outset, her first concern and worry is with Britain, as she holds most of her powers albeit limited, and all of her Royal Residences within the UK PoliceChief 00:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the convention in the English language is to refer to crowned heads of state by their regnal name, not their title. So we talk about 'Napoleon I', rather than, 'Emperor Napoleon I', or 'Elizabeth II' rather than 'Queen Elizabeth II'.-- Gazzster 01:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I've eliminated many cases of the Christian name alone in reference to the Queen, though not all of them. Although the use seems to be normal for dead monarchs and for Princes, it's far more common for the monarch to be referred to as "Elizabeth II" or "the Queen". American media often refer to her as "Queen Elizabeth". I've left the Christian name intact where the Queen's early life is mentioned or where it is sensible to avoid repitition of longer titles. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 00:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I have just heard on the grapevine that The Queen has died (touch wood she hasn't) but has anybody heard anything else about this? I must stress that I have been told through rumour and not through official sources. Doyley Talk 15:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't appear to be anything right now.-- Ibagli rnbs ( Talk) 20:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Will the Queen's diamond jubilee coincide with the 2012 olympics. Diamond signifies 60 years on the throne doesn't it? I was just wondering -- Hadseys 14:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Why is edinburgh mentioned in the infobox but normandy isnt, she's duchess of both. I added it correctly and its been reverted...-- Tefalstar 18:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Be all that as it may, the point is this: that section of the infobox does not contain several titles, one per line; rather, it contains several lines, each of which includes a short title appropriate to a particular part of her life. For the last 50-plus years she's been the Queen; before that there was a period when she was the Duchess of Edinburgh; before that there was a period when she was Princess Elizabeth; and before that there was a period when she was Princess Elizabeth of York. So whether or not Duke/Duchess of Normandy is a real title or not isn't really relevant to the infobox. Doops | talk 20:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Surely "The Queen" ought to be redirected to Elizabeth II of the UK? Although very informal Her Majesty Elizabeth II is known as "the Queen" worldwide. Even many other languages for example German uses the word "Queen" as a synonym for HM instead of their literal translation of "Königin". -- Camaeron 11:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree and am willing to revert a second time. Linking to one specific person for a generic title is quite POV, I cannot imagine the outcry if "the president" linked to George W Bush, Iajuddin Ahmed or Karolos Papoulias. Each is A president, and likewise, Queen Elizabeth II is A queen, amongst many, future, past and present. Gareth E Kegg 14:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I still disagree... GW Bush is not referred to as "the President" worldwide. Also interestingly on typing in "Queen" in the german Wikipedia it comes up with the following "englisches Wort für Königin meistens synonym die amtierende britische Königin Elizabeth II." which roughly translates as "English word for Queen mostly used as a synonym for the reigning british monarch Queen Elizabeth II. -- Camaeron 14:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Whilst I agree she is not THE only QUEEN, the Queen has become a synoym for HM. Maybe we should agree to disagree and make a disambiguation page for "the Queen" and have a list of reigning Queens, Margarethe, Beatrix and Elizabeth are the only one that come to my mind but I must admit Im only interested in european monarchies... -- Camaeron ( talk) 16:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me many people have missed something. Are you sure all English speakers are going to assume you mean E II when you speak of the queen? It seems to me easily possible that in Thailand most people will assume you mean the queen of Thailand. Similarly with other countries with monarches Nil Einne ( talk) 17:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
We still have a weird article called 'The queen'. I was looking for the film. 'The queen' page should still have some kind of link to Queen, where all Queens are found. I will fix that. Maybe it should also have a disambiguation to The Queen (film). Also maybe there should be a list of Queens, or a category for Queens (already there?). Queen page talks about reigning monarchs that are queens - it might be useful to have a list somewhere of all current queens, or all queens ever, regardless of status. I disagree that The Queen should redirect to EIIR - even in England there have been previous queens who were The Queen. Stevebritgimp ( talk) 19:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
rastas believe she is the Whore of Babylon. it's mentioned on pages about rastafarians as well as the whore of babylon page. should it be mentioned on this page?
160.39.129.60 21:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
should it be mentioned on this page?
I would like to see you try to get it to stick in the Whore of Babylon article first before you attempt to put it in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diegueno ( talk • contribs) 04:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The article is too long, and also doesn not read like an encyclopedia, but like an article for a mag of royalty fans, sorry! Can someone call in a historian ? Johncmullen1960 09:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
"Constitutionally, the Queen is an essential part of the legislative process of her Realms. In practice, much of the Queen's role in the legislative process is ceremonial, as her reserve powers are rarely exercised."
What this mean? and what is "her reserve powers are rarely exercised"? can she free someone from prison or put someone in? can she dimiss the parliament? can she declare war? can she punish someone who publicly insult her or because she hate him/her? can she pass a law or ignore the law? if she have no rights then why she is queen? (suppose) if she do a crime (incidental shock and kill someone by her car) can the govermeant put her in the prison? for someone live in the middle east where (King=God) it's hard to understand what is the ceremonial king or queen. I respect her for being a good and respected person (monarch) for 50 year!! but want to know what is exactly her rights (reserve powers)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saddon ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is puzzling:
As other colonies of the British Empire attained independence from the UK during her reign, she acceded to the newly created thrones as Queen of each respective realm so that throughout her 55 years on the throne she has been the sovereign of 32 nations, half of which either subsequently adopted other royal houses or became republics.
I don't know of any former commonwealth realms that went on to adopt another royal house. Unless I missing something or misreading this sentence (and please speak up iif I am), I'm going to change it... -- Jfruh ( talk) 01:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
. Your article on Elizabeth II says, "Her reign of over half a century has seen twelve different Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom and numerous Prime Ministers in the Commonwealth Realms."
There have in fact been twelve "prime ministerships," but only eleven prime ministers: Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Douglas-Home, Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Callahan, Thatcher, Major, Blair, and Brown. Harold Wilson was both Edward Heath's predecessor and his successor, which gives you a total of 11. Gregwuliger ( talk) 08:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC) gregwuliger
- Theaveng ( talk) 15:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression it was protocol only for subjects of the Queen to bow... Mind you even that is not a must these days some..Cherie Blair impolitely refused to even though her husband was more than happy to..bitch! lol -- Camaeron ( talk) 18:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that B Palace does not insist on anyone bowing or curtseying to the sovereign.In any case, why should one head of state be bound to bow to another head of state? Bowing implies subservience, and heads of state are equal.-- Gazzster ( talk) 21:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
To Gazzster: Though of course technically royalty and nobility outrank every "commoner"....even if they are a president... -- Camaeron 16:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed RC as oldest British ruler as he wasn't. Cromwell is the oldest former British ruler. For example, if Elizabeth II abdicates before 21 December, 2007? she wouldn't qualify as the oldest monarch/ruler. GoodDay ( talk) 21:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Er, Elizabeth isn't a British ruler at all. She does not rule Britain or any other place. Grassynoel ( talk) 11:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Elizabeth II has just become the oldest British monarch (and oldest of all British Isles monarchs -English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh-). GoodDay ( talk) 17:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Elizabeth is currently (20 December 2007) tied with Victoria. The Palace announced that Elizabeth would pass Victoria at 1700 UTC based on the time of day of the queens' relative births and Victoria's death. They are perfectly entitled to do so, but it does not make sense for Wikipedia. There are several articles related to longevity and time in service. These are measured in days, not hours. That is because in most cases it is impossible to know at what time the person was born or died. For the sake of consistency across the project, it makes more sense to use 21 December 2007 as the date the tie is broken. - Rrius ( talk) 23:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC) And so it being December 23 2007 then all can agree that Elizabeth II is the longest reigning monarch of Britain!
Something is wrong with the ancestry table. I can see the list of ancestors in the code for the page, but Firefox and IE7 are not rendering the table or a "show" button on the blue "Ancestors of Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" box. What's going on? - Rrius ( talk) 18:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The article previously stated: Additionally, the plan to make the princess patroness of Urdd Gobaith Cymru was dropped as two of the leading members were conscientious objectors, "a view shared by the princess herself". I removed the phrase at the end of the sentence since it made it sound as though Princess Elizabeth was herself a conscientious objector, which of course she was not. The sentence was probably supposed to mean that the princess also believed that the Urdd leaders were conscientious objectors, except that nobody else is identified in this sentence as also thinking that the Urdd leaders were conscientious objectors; thus, it doesn't make sense to say that she "shared" the view. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the section about the Apollo 11 goodwill message left by Elizabeth II. The source is:
Fabfivefreddy ( talk) 06:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not good at adding citations yet. Please help! Fabfivefreddy ( talk) 20:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Most of the other monarch articles show their official portrait as their image - should this article not show the same? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 12:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is worth mentioning anywhere, or of interest to anyone, but these are Queen Elizabeth's current 16 Prime Ministers. Aridd ( talk) 20:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Why am I not surprised? ;) Thanks. Aridd ( talk) 23:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
This article on Queen Victoria states "as a monarch Queen V. proposed to Albert". I found this very interesting. Why does it not link to another article? Surely this interesting fact deserves an article of its own? Does anyone have any info on this? Does this rule still exist today? Did QEII propose to Philip? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.56.188.39 ( talk) 15:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh yes of course, I knew that. Though I am still suprised that there isnt an article on it. Not that i would know what to look for. Monarchs proposal or something similar. Somebody must have some info on it! Thanks anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.56.174.13 ( talk) 16:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone here know how much the royal collection is worth? Somebody must have at least estimated its worth! Does anyone have any sources? -- 89.56.175.231 ( talk) 12:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Under the sub heading Context you state that Elizabeth ii reign of 56 years ranks behind Victoria 63yrs, George iii 59yrs, James i/vi 57yrs,Henry iii 56 years placing her 5th in the list of longest reigning british monarchs. James i/vi of England/Scotland i think should not be included in this list. James was king of scotland from 1567-1603 when Scotland was a separate monarchy.The thrones of England and scotland combined on the death of Elizabeth i in 1603.Therefore there was no british king James before 1603.James was only King of Britain from1603-1625.To add together 2 separate reigns for this King is inaccurate.
Elizabeth ii has been Queen of Great Britain/United kingdom from 6th Feb 1952.One continous reign.On 6/7th March 2008 the queen will equal and then surpass the reign of Henryiii 56 yrs 29 days to become the 3rd longest reigning monarch in 1200 yrs of british history.
I feel that the main article should be amended to include this fact. Thanks Howbridge ( talk) 12:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Agreed -- Camaeron ( talk) 19:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Article dated 7th March 2008 still ranks Elizabeth ii behind Henry iii in longest reigning monarchs context. The queen surpassed Henry iii reign of 56 years 29 days(18th oct 1216-16 Nov 1272)on 7th March 2008. Elizabeth ii having reigned 56 years 30 days by this date. Many Thanks Howbridge ( talk) 14:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks so much for telling me I hadn't realised. I have now updated it. Next time Be bold!. -- Camaeron ( talk) 15:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
WP:LEAD is a guideline for the length of an article's lead section. Not only does it specifically state that exceptions may be made for long important articles, it is also (deliberately, I think) very vaguely worded, and so shoudl never be applied legalistically. The very fact that it describes an optimal length in terms of paragraphs, which are of variable length, shoudl give this away. The lead in this article is the length of three or four acceptably long paragraphs, and so could literally fit within the guideline simply by amalgamating paragraphs. However, to do this would be stupid, as it reads better this way. This is precisely the sort of reason why Wikipedia guidelines are usually applied with sensible flexibility. JPD ( talk) 14:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be the same length as the leads of most FAs, it's just broken into more paragraphs. Don't worry about it. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 23:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Is the photo at top of page really the best we can do? Passingtramp 09:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
(reduce indent) Love the NASA photo! Coincidence that she was visiting the states. :-P Real96 18:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
The royal family's website now (don't think it did before) has a page of downloadable images, including a good official one of the Queen. It says they're for use by "individuals, communities, charities, parishes and other non-commercial organisations". Does wikipedia class as a non-commercial organisation? If so, could we use the photo? The current one is good, but this one's more formal, and so perhaps more suitable. http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page5711.asp Passingtramp 12:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I find it absolutely impossible to believe that there is no decent photo of this woman that we can use on this page. This is probably the most photographed woman over the age of 50 in the world. Unschool 17:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The source of this article's quote "Her ancestry includes a wide range of European and even Middle Eastern and other Asian Royal Houses.[4]" is the unsourced quote "Queen Elizabeth II's ancestry is a multicultural panorama. German and Danish in the main lines, it also includes figures as diverse as Armenian princes, Mongol warriors and Muslim leaders." I don't have a problem with the assertion (virtually NO living human is not in someway connected genetically to widely-spaced populations throughout the world because of eons of migration and mixing), but a more reliable source is needed. Kemet
There are several references along the lines of 'the Palace says'; one understands that there will be statements from the Queen's 'office' and maybe 'the Palce says' doesn't need rerwording. However, 'Buckingham Palace is also reported to be considering giving the Prince more access to government papers' I think warrants a more formal label for the office at the Palace that's making the atatements (Is it always Buckingham Palace, how about Windsor, Balmoral etc?) -- Brenont 05:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Since when is Canada back under the rule of the UK? I was taught in school, and read on the Wiki under "Canada" that they are a democracy... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.42.35.210 ( talk) 15:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
The UK isn't a democracy, it's a constitutional monarchy, they just happen to share a lot of the same characteristics. (MJC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 18:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
From the wiki page on constitutional monarchy: "Although current constitutional monarchies are mostly representative democracies (called constitutional democratic monarchies..." Andrew McIntosh ( talk) 03:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I think to all practical purposes the UK operates as a democratic state, so i actually don't dispute what you say and i think constitutional democratic monarchy is a reasonably effective working description. However it is something of an oddity that we should satisfy ourselves with the assumption that Britain is a democracy simply because one third of the legislative power is a representative body, but this is more to do with definitions of Democracy, rather than the practical implications of British government which does follow the common usage understanding of a modern democratic state. (MJC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 14:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Canada is an independent sovereign state. The UK government has no power in Canada since the early 1980s. The UK and Canada do share the same head of state, which is only right and long may it continue. It is the main difference Canada has compared with the USA and is an important part of its identity. The country was founded by British loyalists who never wanted a republic. They were North American settlers loyal to the Crown. If you want to live in a republic then move to the USA. Canada is an independent British nation and will remain so! YourPTR! 06:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
-- Golden Phoenix 09:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
User:JPD, why do you keep reverting the addition of the Overseas Territories? Queen Elizabeth II is the reigning monarch of the OT's and the article completely omits this fact. As stated in British overseas territories, the OT's are "not part of the UK itself, although under UK sovereignty". Nor are they Commonwealth Realms.
If the article is going to enumerate Commonwealth nations such as Australia and Canada, then to be factually accurate it needs to either: (a) mention the OT's by name, such as Cayman, Bermuda, etc., (see list of UK OT's or (b) at least provide an inline Wikilink to British overseas territories, in the interest of Lead succinctness. I have been a resident of Bermuda for the past five years, and your insistence on omission of the fact that HM is the reigning monarch of Bermuda and the other OT's is an insult to Bermudians. HM is on our currency and postage, and the Royal Governor delivers the Throne Speech in Her name. I have corrected this once again.
Also, please explain why the article should ignore WP:CAP? JGHowes talk - 16:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
JGHowes talk - 19:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)Apart from the United Kingdom, Elizabeth II is also Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize,
andSaint Kitts and Nevis, and the British overseas territories, where she is represented by Governors-General. The sixteen countries of which she is Queen are known as Commonwealth Realms, and their combined population is 128 million
All of this discussion ignores one salient fact which makes the article correct: There is NO separate monarchy for the BOTs, either individually or as a group; they are under the UK's monarchy, even though they are not legally part of the UK itself. That is different from the other 15 Commonwealth realms, whose monarchies are legally independent and merely in personal union with that of the UK; any of them (even the UK) could leave that union by declaring another monarch, by independent changes in the law of succession which are subsequently invoked, or by abolishing their monarchy, though to date only the latter has happened. If any dependency of any Commonwealth realm belongs in this list, it is the Cook Islands, whose monarchy is de jure independent of New Zealand's, just as New Zealand's is from that of the UK. -- RBBrittain 13:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The Queen reigns in the Crown Dependencies as Queen of the United Kingdom, she also has the additional titles there: Lord of Man and Duke of Normandy but she still reigns as Queen of the UK just like in the BOTs. YourPTR! 06:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.97.101 ( talk)
Hi everyone. Although I'm an American, I admire the Queen and respect her, so with her recent trip to the states, I thought I would check out her article. This one thing really popped out to me: the second paragraph in the lead, which states: "Apart from the United Kingdom and its overseas territories, Elizabeth II is also Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, and Saint Kitts and Nevis, where she is represented by Governors-General. The sixteen countries of which she is Queen are known as Commonwealth Realms, and their combined population is 128 million."
Is it really necessary for the lead? According to WP:LEAD, leads are supposed to be short and summarize the article, and I don't know what the point of the above paragraph is in the lead. Maybe it could be put in the "Life as Queen" section, but as far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't go in the lead. Happyme22 03:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
De jure simply means 'in law'; literally 'regarding law'. According to law, the Queen is Head of State in the Commonwealth realms and in the United Kingdom. De facto means 'in fact', that is, 'for all practical purposes', but not accordingly to law. A de facto head of state would be one who governs practically but without due process of law, such as the leader of a coup or a usurper. Even when a country is presided over by a person acting as a regent, such as the Prince Regent George who became George IV, or a Governor-General in the Commonwealth Realms, the reigning Sovereign remains de jure Head of State. Tharkuncoll appears to misunderstand the technical distinction betweeen de jure and de facto Please let us not resurrect the awful discussion about who Elizabeth is really Queen of. It took up pages and created a lot of heat and bad feeling. If editors are proud to have Elizabeth as their country's sovereign, why can't they just share that pride?-- Gazzster 13:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
{{ Editprotected}}
The Fourth Paragraph Reads: "She is presently the world's only monarch who is simultaneously Head of State of more than one independent nation. In practice, however, she personally exercises very little political or executive power, especially outside the UK, but not little enough."
I believe "but not little enough" should be omitted as it constitutes somebody's opinion, it was probably an appendage to an otherwise good sentence.
The Travels section reads "From 1953 to 1954 she and Philip made a six-month, around the world tour, becoming the first monarch to circumnavigate the globe." King David Kalakaua circumnavigated the globe in 1881.
From his wikipedia article "In 1881, King Kalākaua left Hawaiʻi on a trip around the world to study the matter of immigration and to improve foreign relations. ... The King first traveled to San Francisco where he was given a royal welcome. Then he sailed to the Empire of Japan ... He continued through Qing Dynasty China, Siam, Burma, British Raj India, Egypt, Italy, Belgium, the German Empire, Austria-Hungary, the French Third Republic, Spain under the Restoration, Portugal, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and back through the United States before returning to Hawaiʻi. During this trip, he met with many other crowned heads of state, including Pope Leo XIII, Umberto I of Italy, and Victoria of the United Kingdom. In this, he became the first king to travel around the world." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mitcheca ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC).
Mitcheca 05:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Historically indigenous? Except when it has been imported from the Netherlands, Greece, Germany, Denmark, Scotland or Normandy? What a crazy statement - please rewrite.-- Docg 23:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
While 'historically indigenous' is an awkward phrase, it is born out of a discussion in which many editors felt the special identification of the sovereign with the UK needed to be mentioned in the introduction. The phrase, and the entire sentence, is unecessary to the introduction. But for fear of provoking a long edit war, it is perhaps wise to discuss a substitute phrase on this page. I suggest 'however, she is more directly involved with the United Kingdom, where the Royal Family resides, and wher the Monarchy is historically identified with the Kingdoms of England, Scotland, and the former Kingdom of Ireland.'-- Gazzster 07:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please stop attempting the relegate the UK to just one of 16 realms. The monarchy is British. If you want separate pages for Elizabeth II of Australia, etc, then create them - but good luck with finding enough specifically Australian information to fill the article. TharkunColl 07:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Doc.We have had this exchange with TharkunColl and others before. I fail to see anything in the edit I have suggested that demeans the status of the United Kingdom. And his attempt to score points off the citizens of other monarchies ('good luck with finding enough specifically Australian information to fill the article'), is not only unmannerly, but puerile. I trust we don't need to go down this path again.-- Gazzster 09:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm moving this discussion here from my talk page -- G2bambino 16:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC):
What is wrong with admitting that the only place the Queen has a direct role in govt. - weekly meetings with the PM for example - is the UK? Signing one law in 1982, or whatever, does not constitute a direct role in govt. Indeed, the constitutions of the dominions specifically excludes a direct role, vesting such powers in the GG. I was attempting to make the wording more encyclopedic, because as it stands it's too informal. TharkunColl 16:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if it is necessary to be so hair-splitting in the intro. An introduction summarises a topic in the most general of terms.-- Gazzster 21:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I was absolutely bewildered to find the quote "In practice, she exercises virtually no executive power." What idiot wrote that in there? Its completely untrue. When she signs a bill, she exercises executive power. When she dissolves parliament she exercises executive power, when she appoints the Prime minister she exercises executive power! So to quote her using virtually no executive power is a gross under statement and a huge misjudgment. I'm quite sure none of you are actually involved in British central government and i am also quite sure not a lot of you are really up to scratch with your constitutional knowledge. Her Majesty is hugely involved with the running of government in the United Kingdom more than anyone actually realises. TJJ 1/8/07 17:10 (BST)
Stop attempting to demote the UK to just one amongst 16 places of which she is queen. This is not a legal treatise. Her involvement with the UK is qualitively different from those other places. This is all highly insulting to the people of the UK, who support the monarchy with their taxes - unlike anywhere else. TharkunColl 15:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, me too. We've already been through this. Let's remember that the versions we agreed upon did involve compromise on either side. The few editors who are protesting now did agree to the final edits (at least tacitly), didn't they?-- Gazzster 22:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl, that is something you simply cannot understand, can you? You are so convinced the Windsors belong by right to the British alone that you cannot recognise the legitimate attachment of many other peoples to them. OK, try and look at the royal family as many citizens of Commonwealth nations see them. I'm not asking you to agree or sympathise. Just try and understand. Countries like Australia, New Zealand, and Canada rightly pride themselves on their independence and sovereignty. Now, you talk about the struggle of the British people for freedom. You're rightly proud of that. Well, other nations have their history too, of which we're proud. And the British heritage, including the monarchy, has been part of that. Consider if the monarchy didn't exist. Where would be the cultural heritage of Britain? As you say, the United Kingdom has defined itself by hundreds of years of struggle for freedom. The monarchy has been part of that. Without the monarchy, the UK would have to radically redefine itself. Many of these sovereign monarchies who have Elizabeth II as their queen would face a similar dilemna; even more so, since they are young countries and do not have your history. Notice the number of Commonwealth or former Commonwealth nations that are now republics; India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ireland, etc. They all have centuries of tradition as peoples independent of Britain. Other nations do not have that history, but are proud of their sovereignty. In time they will probably become republics. My own country attempted to several years ago, but we are not quite ready yet. In the meantime, respect the dignity of these countries. Respect their independence, and the sovereignty of the queen over them. I am a republican at heart. The republic will come in time. In the meantime, why am I proud to own Elizabeth as the 'Queen of Australia'? Because she, not the United Kingdom, of which she happens to be queen as well, is the guarantee of Australia's sovereignty. -- Gazzster 23:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
(Reply to last post of TharkunColl) Yawn. Actually, your Parliament would find it hard to abolish the monarchy. The monarch would have to sign off on the Act of Parliament, right? And I think you'll find that according to the Statute of Westminster the deposition of the monarch would require the unanimous consent of all the monarchies. Indeed we do pay for the Queen of Australia. Aussie taxpayers pay for her visits, and the Governor-General, who is the Queen in Australia, is paid for out of the public purse. OK. I've said my peace. I've had enough.-- Gazzster 00:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl, the language you use in your first statement is a little condescending, but hey - I know what you're trying to say. But it's not simply a matter of it being 'nice'; sentimental, nostalgic. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II by the Grace of God, etc, etc, is Queen of other nations in law as well as fact.I don't know how you make this strange distinction between fact and law. Obviously, if HM is Queen of a nation in law, she is in fact also. Actually, you are quite correct. The monarchy is British. Elizabeth is Queen of the United Kingdom. The monarchy is also Australian, because HM is Queen of Australia in her own right. The monarchy is also Canadian, because she is Queen of Canada in her own right. The same goes for New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, etc, etc, etc. We are talking about separate monarchies. The monarchy is not a United Kingdom monarchy shared about.Why is it so difficult for you to understand that? Oh God, I'm getting a headache.-- Gazzster 09:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to thank you TharkunColl for showing us your true motives. You are not having difficulty grasping the concept of separate monarchies. You are not even willfully ignorant. You understand very well. You are contributing out of personbal motives biased in favour of an outdated (and irrelevant) Anglocentric world view. 'Presposterous'? 'It is little more than a legal fiction concocted to ease the tortuously long and drawn out process of the end of the British Empire'? That is not only ignorant, but grossly insulting. I am sad you cannot see why. If respond anymore, it will be on your talk page. -- Gazzster 10:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
At first I responded to this gem of a comment on his talk page, as I said, but I think it really needs to be repeated here:
OK. So from saying that the monarchies of the non-UK realms are true, but inferior, nay 'preposterous' monarchies, you are saying they are no monarchies at all. Let us put aside the issue of your ignorance. Let us put aside the issue of whether a monarch is any less a monarch because her realm is 'on the other side of the world'. (By your logic, HM is only half ruler of Gibraltar and hardly at all of the Falkland Islands) and ask ourselves how much influence the Queen has in the United Kingdom? Not a lot, I suspect.-- Gazzster 10:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
And Prince Harry dressing as a Nazi makes Australia 'no monarchy' how?-- Gazzster 11:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Once again you show your ignorance. We have our own monarch. She's called Queen of Australia. Gee! We even have an article about her. Following your logic, HM is Queen of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Mann and the Channel Islands 'in name only.'-- Gazzster 11:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Mate, I know what you're saying. You are saying that the monarchy plays a greater public role in the UK than elsewhere. That has never been in dispute on this page. In fact, the article was edited to show it. But you have stated on this page that my country is 'no monarchy.' You have publicly insulted the non UK monarchies. Kindly recognize that HM is dear to many nations, not just your own. Practically she plays an important part in the Australian Constitution. Without her, Australia would not exist. You can't get any more practical than that. And for the record, she is a 'figurehead' in your country too.-- Gazzster 12:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh my God, this is just too easy. As to your first sentence, I repeat: that has never been in dispute. Can't take yes for an answer, can you? As to the second, the Queen of Australia is Head of State of Australia (see Australian Constitution. So yes, if the Queen ceased to be Queen of Australia, the realm of Australia would cease to exist. If the UK abolished the monarchy, it would cease to be the Kingdom of the UK, wouldn't it? It would become another entity. And I repeat my accusation, you have accused Australia, and, by implication, other monarchies, as being 'no monarchies'. Do you stand by that?-- Gazzster 12:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's 10 pm here, and I'm getting tired, but really, your ignorance continues to astound. But I should be grateful I suppose that you have retracted the absurdity that my nation is 'no monarchy.'Kindly define a monarchy 'in name only'. I'm not familiar with that term in constitutional law. We are 'already a republic'? I see. You'd better email the G-G and John Howard. I don't think they know yet. And for your information, our GG is not 'appointed by elected ministers'; he or she is appointed by the Queen of Australia on the advice of the PM. -- Gazzster 12:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
And how am I to define the government of my country? By the Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom Talk Page? Of course I'm going to refer to my nation's constitution. And there you again demonstrating an ignorance of the constitutional law of other realms. As I have already said, the GG is not appointed by elected reps, but by the Queen of Australia upon the advice of the PM. That the Queen of Australia following the advice of the PM makes Australia a republic, how? Would you rather she didn't?-- Gazzster 13:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Your first statement: I agree. I would not want the Queen of Australia to veto any act of the PM of Australia or the Parliament of Australia. I presume you would say the same for the Queen of the UK and the PM and Parliament of the UK. So if you expect the Queen of the UK to follow the advice of her elected ministers, does that make the UK a practical republic? You're a little confused, I think. As to your 'personal prefertence', that is perfectly irrelevant for this article. Thanks for admitting that.-- Gazzster 13:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
As an Englishman, and proud of it, I can see no problem with head of 16 states as intro currently stands. She is my Queen, but I am more than happy to shere her with all who recognise her. thanks. (Bilbobee away from home, forgot to sign)\
You are a just and magnaminous man, Bilbobee.-- Gazzster 13:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't recall asking for your opinion. I do remember you dictating it to me.'Facts do not necessarily conform to law'? Then do you suggest this article avoid questions of law when it conflicts with what you have already admitted is your personal opinion? What your discourse about the Queen of the UK's reserve powers has to do with the debate I do not know. -- Gazzster 13:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of TharkunColl's comments are completely irrelevant, because he is addressing the question from the point of view "Why should all these indepedent countries want to have the Queen", whereas an encyclopedia simply reports the fact without commenting on whether it is logical or not. It does not matter whether users approve of the constitutional arrangements, simply whether the article correctly reports them. It is true that there is a good argument that Australia is a "crowned republic", and that the crown is less important there than in the UK, but not that the crown is not relevant at all. JPD ( talk) 19:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is 100k – far over the desired article size. I propose splitting off at least the entire "Life as Queen" section to Elizabeth II's life as Queen or something of the similar. If there are no objections in the next three days I'll make the split. Suggestions for a better new article name would be nice too.
I've already moved the "Personality and image" section to Personality and image of Queen Elizabeth II, as that was less controversial than my above proposal. -- Fbv 65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 22:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is a quote from the PM of Canada in 1953 [1]:
"Her Majesty is now Queen of Canada but she is the Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the United Kingdom. . . It is not a separate office .. it is the sovereign who is recognized as the sovereign of the United Kingdom who is our Sovereign. . ." Hansard. February 3, 1953, page 1566.
A very frank and interesting statemant that flatly contradicts a great deal of the nationalist POV that has been incessantly pushed around here. The Queen is Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the UK. It is not a separate office. TharkunColl 12:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
"I am perfectly prepared to concede, even happily affirm, that the British Crown no longer exists in Canada, but that is because legal reality indicates to me that in one sense, the British Crown no longer exists in Britain: the Crown transcends Britain just as much as it does Canada. One can therefore speak of "the British Crown" or "the Canadian Crown" or indeed the "Barbadian" or "Tuvaluan" Crown, but what one will mean by the term is the Crown acting or expressing itself within the context of that particular jurisdiction... But there is a danger that this concept of the "divisibility" of the Crown, which, given the manner in which the legislative independence of the Queen's realms in the Commonwealth has developed, I must admit is a fact, can lead to the idea that the Crown is at present "divided". This is not true, but it would immediately become true if, let us say, an alteration were to be made in the United Kingdom to the Act of Settlement 1701, providing for the succession of the Crown. It is my opinion that the domestic constitutional law of Australia or Papua New Guinea, for example, would provide for the succession in those countries of the same person who became Sovereign of the United Kingdom. But this would not be true in Canada. There is no existing provision in our law, other than the Act of Settlement 1701, that provides that the King or Queen of Canada shall be the same person as the King or Queen of the United Kingdom. If the British law were to be changed and we did not change our law..., the Crown would be divided. The person provided for in the new law would become king or queen in at least some realms of the Commonwealth; Canada would continue on with the person who would have become monarch under the previous law..."
How about this legal ruling from 2003 (my bold, see link above):
In the present case the court is being asked to apply the Charter not to rule on the validity of acts or decisions of the Crown, one of the branches of our government, but rather to disrupt the core of how the monarchy functions, namely the rules by which succession is determined. To do this would make the constitutional principle of Union under the British Crown together with other Commonwealth countries unworkable, would defeat a manifest intention expressed in the preamble of our Constitution, and would have the courts overstep their role in our democratic structure.
So there you have it. TharkunColl 15:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have said nothing about Canada being subservient to the UK. But the Canadian monarchy is an adjunct of the British monarchy. It is surely only nationalistic pride that refuses to allow you to see this, and that has no place in an encyclopedia. TharkunColl 15:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The only editor who continues to object in this matter is TharkunColl (GoodDay objects also, but respects the discussion we have previously had on this page). I hardly think mediation is necessary for TharkunColl's sake. In fact he has shown himself to be insulting to the non-UK monarchies. He has found himself pursuing nonsensical and contradictory arguments. With G2bambino he has argued that the Canadian crown is part of the UK Crown, and then said the former is not inferior to the latter. He cannot have it both ways. In an exchange with myself a week ago he said that non-UK monarchies were 'preposterous' monarchies. He later went on to say that were 'no' monarchies at all. Then he implied that the validity of a monarchy depended upon the distance of a nation from the place she resides. He described Australia as a republic on the basis that the Queen of Australia is a figurehead there and respects a democratically elected government. Then he realised that he had just described the UK monarchy as well! On top of this, the UK is the supreme monarchy, apparently, because Prince Harry has dressed as a Nazi and the Princess Royal runs up parking tickets there. When forced to pursue his own arguments TharkunColl trips over himself and is forced to contradict himself. And he has stated on this page that his arguments about the superiority of the UK Crown are his own personal arguments. I do not think we should allow TharkunColl to hijack this discussion. We have talked about this. We have settled on an edit which acknowledges the special role of HM in the UK. The edit is accurate and fair. Let's stick to it.-- Gazzster 21:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I think you mean to say, 'you didn't give me the answers I wanted.' And I do not trivialise. That is what your arguments sound like. And isn't it hypocritical to accuse me of that when you 'trivialise' the dignity of 15 sovereign nations, many of whom are represented by editors on this page? If you're waiting for an answer, this article is about Queen Elizabeth II. Her full-time job is being Queen of 16 realms. No, she isn't part-time monarch of Australia and Canada. If you need to continue, I invite you to go to my talk page.-- Gazzster 04:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
My point is that mediation should not be necessary on the basis of one editor's disruption. Editors simply need to show a common face in favour of the agreed upon edits. Taking administrive action only gives the attention he wants.-- Gazzster 22:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I think most, if not all non-UK Commonwealth realms have the Act of Settlement as part of their constitutional law. At least, I know that is the case in Australia. That would mean that only a non-Catholic descendant of Electress Sophia Dorothea of Hanover, whose spouse was not Catholic could succeed, as in the UK. Of course, any sovereign nation could legislate to choose any monarch it wanted. Any change concerning the succession of the common monarchy would require the agreement of all the realms, according to the Statute of Westminster. But I suppose any realm could unilaterally annul the Statute of Westminster. After that, who knows? An interesting hypothetical scednario. -- Gazzster 05:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Good call, mate. SD was the mother of George I.-- Gazzster 22:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Right again. George's mother was Sophia of the Palatinate?-- Gazzster 23:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
It was true when the PM said it but it isnt now. Since then the UK lost its last remaining legal links to Canada and the Canadian Crown became patriated in law in 1982.
If the Queen's role as Queen of Canada, Australia, etc. really is completely distinct from her role as Queen of the UK, then why wasn't she crowned as such? Those places weren't even mentioned during her coronation. TharkunColl 13:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, it isn't ambiguous. It is a matter of law and practice.Now it would be impractical and ridiculous to crown the monarch 16 times with 16 different crowns. The poor woman wouldn't be out of the abbey until the evening.In any case, most monarchs these days aren't crowned- the UK monarchy is about the last to have a coronation. The rite of coronation is just that, a ceremony, and does not actually make a monarch. So no coronation does not mean no monarchy.-- Gazzster 21:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that all her titles should be included. And I do not recognize that this article needs to be summarised. I particularly enjoyed this article, and condensing it would remove a lot of detail.
125.239.6.184
04:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
If the Queen is equally the Queen of the other realms as she is of the UK, as some have suggested, then wouldn't it be more likely for Charles to be crowned in a country other than the UK? Of course not! He will first be King of the UK, and then of the other nations. Jleonau 07:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
My point is that if the relationship between the monarch and each realm were equal, then it would be less likely (chance 1 out of 16) for the next monarch to be coronated in the UK than it would be for him to be coronated somewhere else (chance 15 out of 16). Jleonau 12:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I know I'm only an American, but it seems to me as an outsider with no natioanl agenda to push that the phrase "Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith" is a good compromise. Listing all 16 crowns she holds would be a bit much. And while she is Queen of all sixteen Commonwealth monarchies, it is also true that her historical homeland, the land of her ancestors, and the land where the crown originated is the UK. So the phrase noted above seems like a fair compromise. Just the opinion of a lowly Yank, and since Bush no one likes us anymore anyway. ;) RockStarSheister ( talk) 21:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems that since it's her official title, it's the best solution. I think people in commonwealth countries/former colonies are being a bit too touchy about this entire subject. RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Gosh, you sure are mistaken, but I'll give you points for being proud of your country. Calling Elizabeth the Queen of the UK and her other realms and territories is infinitely more sensible than calling her Queen of Tuvalu. Does she live in Tuvalu? Did her father George VI, or grandfather George V, or great-grandfather Edward VII? Does she speak English with a Tuvalu accent? Did her coronation take place in Tuvalu? National pride is all fine and dandy but let's not be blinded by it. With regard to the Commonwealth of Nations, the UK will always be Primus Inter Pares, first among equals. Did Tuvalu export its language to the UK or was it the other way around? Did the traditional Tuvalu monarch become monarch in the UK, or does the tradional UK monarch reign in Tuvalu? A little common sense goes a long way in situations like this. I can go anywhere in the world and mention Queen Elizabeth of the UK and people know who I mean. If I were to mention Queen Elizabeth of Tuvalu, they would ask who is she, some local monarch or tribal queen? That may not be politically correct, but that's what the reaction would be. I'm not going to discuss it anymore, as national pride seems to be blinding your common sense. RockStarSheister ( talk) 06:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Next time you want to argue against what I write, I suggest you actually read my words. If you had, you would see that I did not deny she is Queenof sixteen nations. What I said is that her role in the UK is more important than her role in the other nations. The Prime Minister of only one of these sixteen nations meets with her on a regular basis. Care to guess which one? Hint: It isn't Canada or Vulatu RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Once again, you have failed to read my words correctly and you are arguing against a point I did not make. I never said the UK was more important than any of the other fifteen nations she reigns over. I said (and read this carefully lest we go through deja vu all over again) that her relationship with the government of the UK is more important than her relationship with the government of the fifteen other realms. That is not an opinion, it is a fact shown by such things as her weekly meeting with PM of the UK and her daily perusal of "the box" containing state papers (overwhelmingly concerning the UK). Therefore, her reign over the UK is more significant, and yes more important, than her reign over the other nations, which tends to be more in name only as opposed to the more active role she plays in the government of the UK. I never said the UK itself was more important than any other nation. Stop being so defensive. RockStarSheister ( talk) 23:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not see any criticism here. And is not her real last name Saxe-Coburg-Gothe. Where is the mention of how the whole familiy is really German? Xavier cougat 16:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
"Also in 1992, part of Windsor Castle was seriously damaged by fire. An announcement that the approximately $100 million needed to repair the castle would come from public funds set off a furor about the monarchy’s exemption from the tax code. As a result the queen and Prince Charles agreed to pay income taxes on their personal income, the first time the monarchy has done so"
How about 'QE had not paid taxes until 1992 when a public furor occurred after the announcement that public funds would pay for the Windsor Castle that was damaged by fire. After the public's reaction QE agreed to pay taxes'?
hi, This is a wrong piece of information which could be misleading to the readers. Pakistan got its independence from British Empire on August 14, 1947.
Hence why you will never find a post box in Scotland with QEII (or QE2) as a mark - they are all shown as a Crown !!
She's been on the throne 50+ years. Of course its going to be a long article. Whats wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing. But what section are to commenting on? And please sign your contributions, which are welcome.-- Gazzster 12:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
She is currently the third longest reigning British monarch after Victoria, who reigned for sixty-three years and George III, who reigned for fifty-nine years.
And what about Henry III of England, and James VI of Scotland? The above statement is misleading at best, and simply false at worst. TharkunColl 18:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
It is misleading to refer to Britain as 'a continuation of the English state'. Britain was a forced amalgamation of Scotland and Ireland with England, which was the strongest of those states.Scotland and Northern Ireland retain their separate identities, even more so in these days of devolution, and it is certainly not correct to identify these nations with England.-- Gazzster 23:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Um, returning to the point: the issue isn't whether or not the "third-longest" statement is *factual*, it's whether or not it's *useful*. I think a strong case can be made that including Henry III and James VI are is useful, so I'll do so (making sure to use unambiguous wording, of course).
Doops |
talk
05:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
No you didnt. But associating them with a list of long reigns of British monarchs was irrelevant and confusing. Your latest edit is fine.-- Gazzster 07:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
For once, Sir, I agree with you. Cheers!-- Gazzster 07:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
It's extraordinary the things we end up debating, isn't it?-- Gazzster 08:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
No worries, mate. You're cool!-- Gazzster 08:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Not all Scottish institutions were abolished, and as an administrative unit Scotland remained distinct from England. Scots Gaelic was widely spoken and the Scots used their own dialects of the English language. The clan system was not abolished in 1707, though it was bloodily repressed after the Jacobite Wars. Scottish law remained distinct from English law. The monarch in Scotland is not head of the Scottish Church. Scotland had its own Secretary of State in London until 1999. Since then it has its own executive and Parliament. Likewise, England, and for that matter, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and Man are distinct political entities with their own laws, customs and institutions. True, the Crowns of these different entities have been merged into one: the Crown of the United Kingdom. But let's not confuse the single Crown and the several, distinct states under the crown. They remain distinct. They have not been absorbed by England.-- Gazzster 13:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I did not say they were separate nations. I said they were 'distinct states' or 'entities'. And I clearly made the point that they are united under one crown; not absorbed by England. You apparently agree with me. -- Gazzster 21:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Gosh, all this is so needlessly complicated; there's so much barking up a wrong tree. All the sentence is trying to do is talk about length of reign. The fact that the constitutional status of his territories altered during the course of George III's life doesn't mean that the poor guy had two reigns: he had one. He didn't stop reigning one day and start again the next; he kept reigning. Furthermore, there's really no need to rehash the whole series of constitutional changes here on the talk page: I'm pretty sure we all know it like the back of our hands. The point is, although these changes certainly occurred, and although they are certainly important, they don't amount to a blank slate starting all over again. There was lots of continuity (in laws, in institutions, in regnal numerals, etc.) during each change. I don't see why so many people are unwilling to grasp the quite simple concept of a successor state.
The point is this: we want to talk about length of time reigning. Did George III reign longer than Elizabeth II or not? Of course he did. If we don't say so, we're muddying the waters pointlessly. By all means, let's use accurate language; I would never advocate inaccuracy. But the length-of-reign sentence should be about length-of-reign, not obsessed with constitutional questions. Doops | talk 17:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Ideally we should follow, in this matter as all, the KISS principle whenever we can, for a couple of reasons; to avoid cumbersome renderings; to avoid getting into long discussions over relatively unimportant points. The statement as it stands is OK. But really, the only intention of the paragraph is to inform readers that EII is one of the longest reigning monarchs of Britain. To be really simple, it would only be necessary to say something like, 'Elizabeth II is one of the longest reigning monarchs of Great Britain. She has reigned for ----years. Only Victoria (---yrs) and George III (---yrs) have longer reigns.' I believe the original statement was as simple as this. But we had to complicate it by references to James VI. Henry III, etc. I really do not think the public needs this additional information (certainly not in an introduction) & is likely to be confused by it.-- Gazzster 22:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Look, I can certainly see how one could include those two sovereigns (and others) but to do so strays unecessarily into contentious waters. Look how much time we spent on the topic. I admit, I have been an offender in this matter. But Ive said my piece. I dont want to rake it up again.-- Gazzster 02:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Good point m8!-- Gazzster 04:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I think people should stop referring to the UK as a continuation of the English state. Regardless of what one's personal views are, it was techincally a union of the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland to form the Kingdom of Great Britain which later becomae the United Kingdom. To incorrectly call the UK a continuation of the English state is unfair and insulting to all Scots. Yes, I know parliament is based in London, but I might counter with the fact that James VI, the Scottish monarch, claimed the English throne. An English monarch did not claim the Scottish throne. Technicalities such as this can be argued as infinitum, so why not in the future refer to the union as it truly was, a union of kingdoms and not the takeover of one kingdom by another? RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I have a question: why were the mentions of the Queen awarding former American Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Buah, as well as former Polish Leader Lech Walesa, the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath removed? I think that saying that would greatly enhance the "Relations with foreign leaders" section, for it demonstrates not just a friendly relationship with the Queen, but a working relationship also. I propose adding that back in, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this page first. Best, Happyme22 16:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that Andorra is not actually an independent nation, but is a joint protectorate of France and Spain. Rather like Monaco being a French protectorate, and San Marino and Vatican City being Italian protectorates. TharkunColl 15:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Andorra is most certainly an independent and sovereign state. While the Heads of State are the President of France and the (Spanish) Bishop of Urgell, these positions are merely the ceremonial heads of state, not the head of government, who is an Andorran politician. To not consider Andorra an independent nation because of this technicality would be akin to saying that Canada or New Zealand are not independent countries because Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is head of state in those two countries. The misunderstanding is a common one, but to put the matter to rest, Andorra is without doubt a sovereign state, as the UN website, Andorra's website, and any encyclopedia will tell you. RockStarSheister ( talk) 22:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Having reviewed G2bambino's equal status for commonwealth nations edits (here and at relating pages). Doesn't it all seem to contradict this page's title? Wounldn't G2's views, demand Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom be 'moved' to Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth? I'm not critizing, just seeking consistancy. Why is it both ways? GoodDay 19:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I see no issue with retaining the title, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom,as it is the realm most prominently associated with her in the public eye. True, as said above, Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth sounds like a title, which it isnt. She is Head of the Commonwealth. Similar, Queen of the Commonwealth Realms sounds as if it is a title. And it sounds as if the 'Commonwealth Realms' is a single political entity, like an empire or the United States. The present title of the article is fine.-- Gazzster 02:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This issue is having an impact on other pages related to Commonwealth Realms. It's not just a bit misleading, it is factually wrong to describe the "current monarch" of <non-UK realm> as "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" - she is "Elizabeth II of <non-UK realm>". "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth" also doesn't cut it -- there is no such title.
By far the simplest solution, IMO, would be to refer to her as Elizabeth II. That currently takes you to a redirect page that gets you here. I tried piping her through, which is effectively equivalent to this, but ran into the objection that there is a WP policy that links in DABlinks should be to the actual title of the article, and discourages pipes and redirects. Although there is also a policy allowing editors to override other policies if the particular circumstances warrant, and it seems to me completely justified to do so in this case, there was some disagreement about that. So I'm looking for another solution.
Looking at the WP history, the article about her started as a simple Elizabeth II. It was given the current title in April 2002. The justification was something to do with a WP policy on nomenclature, which I haven't seen. I imagine it says something like that an article about a monarch must be entitled "<monarch> of <somewhere>".
I think that decision was a mistake and should be reversed. This is one case (and historically there are others, e.g. some monarchs, like Demetrius I were peripatetic) where a single <somewhere> doesn't do justice to the case.
She is most commonly known as Elizabeth II, without qualification, and the name is completely unambiguous. There are no other monarchs of that name, nor are there likely to be so for a considerable time, if ever.
So, I propose moving this article back into Elizabeth II and turning Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom into the redirect. Any takers? -- Chris Bennett 17:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
As Ive said, I have no problem with the present title. But, if we must change it, Chris's suggestion is excellent. -- Gazzster 21:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish there were a way to make it possible for one page to display a different title depending on where it was linked from. That would make the name of this article so much easier.-- Ibagli ( Talk) 04:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
If we'll rename this article to Elizabeth II, Queen of the Commonwealth Realms, should we change Charles, Prince of Wales to Charles, Heir Apparent of the Commonwealth Realms? ― 韓斌/Yes0song ( 談笑 筆跡 다지모) 07:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not correct actually. The Prince of Wales is a title that has no meaning in Scotland, as the Principality of Wales was a principality of the Kingdom of England, and it remains as such hence England and Wales share a legal system whilst Scotland has its own. As such, yes the title of Prince of Wales is given to the heir-apparent of the UK, by tradition, but it does not denote this. The titles of Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothsay, Prince and Great Stewart of Scotland, and others are also given traditionally to the heir-apparent but again they do not officially denote the heir-apparent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.88.64 ( talk) 00:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Belize is an independent nation and does not have no queen! I've noticed that wikipedia puts a lot of false statements on their pages. Belize was once a british colony but that's no longer true. If anything, Belize is slowly becoming a Latino Caribbean country, as Spanish is becoming more dominant in the country. Please learn your history wikipedia!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.101.156 ( talk) 20:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC).
Don't spread rubbish - this is what the Belizean government has to say :
"Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is the constitutional Head of State. She is represented in Belize by a Governor-General, who must be a Belizean.
http://www.belize.gov.bz/ab_politics.html
-- Bluezy 20:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It says in this article that the crown lands are "technically the Queen's" - in fact they are only hers as Sovereign, like the Royal Collection or the Occupied Palaces, not personally.
I know this is somewhat tangential to EIIR, but User:TharkunColl has engaged himself in an edit war at Passport and started his "all the realms are under the British Queen" argument again at the related talk page. Rather than go through all this garbage yet again, could interested people please come and put a swift end to his incessant trolling? I started an RfC at Talk:Passport#Request for Comment: Passport. Cheers. -- G2bambino 23:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
G2bambino, valued editor as you are, I think it is an unwise move for you to bring your dispute from Passport to this or any other page.Especially as this particular page, having gone through several bloody edit wars, is now quiet and in peace. The language you use, such as 'garbage', 'incessant trolling' , and inviting others to become involved in a dispute on another page, could be seen as unhelpfully provocative.-- Gazzster 14:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The lead section of this article is in major breach of WP:MOS, and more specifically, WP:LEAD. I'm aware this article has been site to alot of dispute, but is it possible it could be streamlined/merged/cropped/copy-editted? Not least remove the dablink mid prose (!).
I'd rather not recieve replys saying the lead is "fine as it is", and "it's ok to be a mess because its a long, important, disputed and/or complex subject" - I cite Jesus, World War II, Universe, Islam, Evolution, George W. Bush as examples of comparably seminal articles with appropriate and policy-compliant leads. I'd just like to see a quality overview of the Elizabeth II article sooner rather than later. Jza84 01:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll bite: I've just made a first attempt to refocus the lead. Doops | talk 02:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this important for the Queen?-- Oliver s. 14:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Now my English history is very shakey but I'm pretty sure that the Tudors ousted the Yorks anyway and so even had Edward been replaced with George, the Tudors still would have lead to our own dear queen.
Scroggie
20:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Dick Cromwell was the 'ruler/former ruler' who lived the longest (nearly 86). However at the time he 'ceased to be' ruler, Cromwell was about 33. A similiar thing occurs with the American Presidency longevity trivia. Is there a better way, we can include young ruler Cromwell? GoodDay 22:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I like the context section, however I slightly take issue with "As other colonies of the British Empire (now the Commonwealth of Nations)...". I'm not sure you can really say the British Empire is 'now the commonwealth of nations'? Most of the members of the commonwealth were indeed in the British Empire, but I think too strong a link is implied. Passingtramp 12:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There is one nation Mozambique which was not a colony according to Commonwealth of Nations, so as a general description it's accurate enough it seems to me. David Underdown 12:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC
Youre right, the statement is incorrect (and unsourced, I might add).The Commonwealth of Nations is not a replacement of the BE. In fact it was created to move away from from the idea of empire. The source of unity of the Empire was a common sovereignty under the British Sovereign. The source of unity of the Commonwealth of Nations is a free spirit of association of cooperation under Elizabeth as Head of the Commonwealth. Countries which have never been part of the Empire may apply for membership.-- Gazzster 00:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Then to avoid the interpretation I suggest my latest edit stands.-- Gazzster 10:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Her Majesty is not simply called Elizabeth, that would be disrespectful and quite wrong. Surely this article should be at least, renamed "Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom", rarely in this article is the Queen referred to as the Queen of the United Kingdom, but quite often as the Queen of the Commonwealth Realms, firstly the Queen holds sovereignty of Britain seperately from the Commonwealth Realms, only after the monarch at the time who conquered or fought in other countries named that country a member of the British Empire, which then became Commonwealth Nations and now Realms, the Queen is first and foremost the Queen of the United Kingdom and so this article should set this clear from the outset, her first concern and worry is with Britain, as she holds most of her powers albeit limited, and all of her Royal Residences within the UK PoliceChief 00:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the convention in the English language is to refer to crowned heads of state by their regnal name, not their title. So we talk about 'Napoleon I', rather than, 'Emperor Napoleon I', or 'Elizabeth II' rather than 'Queen Elizabeth II'.-- Gazzster 01:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I've eliminated many cases of the Christian name alone in reference to the Queen, though not all of them. Although the use seems to be normal for dead monarchs and for Princes, it's far more common for the monarch to be referred to as "Elizabeth II" or "the Queen". American media often refer to her as "Queen Elizabeth". I've left the Christian name intact where the Queen's early life is mentioned or where it is sensible to avoid repitition of longer titles. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 00:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I have just heard on the grapevine that The Queen has died (touch wood she hasn't) but has anybody heard anything else about this? I must stress that I have been told through rumour and not through official sources. Doyley Talk 15:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't appear to be anything right now.-- Ibagli rnbs ( Talk) 20:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Will the Queen's diamond jubilee coincide with the 2012 olympics. Diamond signifies 60 years on the throne doesn't it? I was just wondering -- Hadseys 14:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Why is edinburgh mentioned in the infobox but normandy isnt, she's duchess of both. I added it correctly and its been reverted...-- Tefalstar 18:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Be all that as it may, the point is this: that section of the infobox does not contain several titles, one per line; rather, it contains several lines, each of which includes a short title appropriate to a particular part of her life. For the last 50-plus years she's been the Queen; before that there was a period when she was the Duchess of Edinburgh; before that there was a period when she was Princess Elizabeth; and before that there was a period when she was Princess Elizabeth of York. So whether or not Duke/Duchess of Normandy is a real title or not isn't really relevant to the infobox. Doops | talk 20:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Surely "The Queen" ought to be redirected to Elizabeth II of the UK? Although very informal Her Majesty Elizabeth II is known as "the Queen" worldwide. Even many other languages for example German uses the word "Queen" as a synonym for HM instead of their literal translation of "Königin". -- Camaeron 11:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree and am willing to revert a second time. Linking to one specific person for a generic title is quite POV, I cannot imagine the outcry if "the president" linked to George W Bush, Iajuddin Ahmed or Karolos Papoulias. Each is A president, and likewise, Queen Elizabeth II is A queen, amongst many, future, past and present. Gareth E Kegg 14:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I still disagree... GW Bush is not referred to as "the President" worldwide. Also interestingly on typing in "Queen" in the german Wikipedia it comes up with the following "englisches Wort für Königin meistens synonym die amtierende britische Königin Elizabeth II." which roughly translates as "English word for Queen mostly used as a synonym for the reigning british monarch Queen Elizabeth II. -- Camaeron 14:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Whilst I agree she is not THE only QUEEN, the Queen has become a synoym for HM. Maybe we should agree to disagree and make a disambiguation page for "the Queen" and have a list of reigning Queens, Margarethe, Beatrix and Elizabeth are the only one that come to my mind but I must admit Im only interested in european monarchies... -- Camaeron ( talk) 16:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me many people have missed something. Are you sure all English speakers are going to assume you mean E II when you speak of the queen? It seems to me easily possible that in Thailand most people will assume you mean the queen of Thailand. Similarly with other countries with monarches Nil Einne ( talk) 17:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
We still have a weird article called 'The queen'. I was looking for the film. 'The queen' page should still have some kind of link to Queen, where all Queens are found. I will fix that. Maybe it should also have a disambiguation to The Queen (film). Also maybe there should be a list of Queens, or a category for Queens (already there?). Queen page talks about reigning monarchs that are queens - it might be useful to have a list somewhere of all current queens, or all queens ever, regardless of status. I disagree that The Queen should redirect to EIIR - even in England there have been previous queens who were The Queen. Stevebritgimp ( talk) 19:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
rastas believe she is the Whore of Babylon. it's mentioned on pages about rastafarians as well as the whore of babylon page. should it be mentioned on this page?
160.39.129.60 21:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
should it be mentioned on this page?
I would like to see you try to get it to stick in the Whore of Babylon article first before you attempt to put it in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diegueno ( talk • contribs) 04:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The article is too long, and also doesn not read like an encyclopedia, but like an article for a mag of royalty fans, sorry! Can someone call in a historian ? Johncmullen1960 09:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
"Constitutionally, the Queen is an essential part of the legislative process of her Realms. In practice, much of the Queen's role in the legislative process is ceremonial, as her reserve powers are rarely exercised."
What this mean? and what is "her reserve powers are rarely exercised"? can she free someone from prison or put someone in? can she dimiss the parliament? can she declare war? can she punish someone who publicly insult her or because she hate him/her? can she pass a law or ignore the law? if she have no rights then why she is queen? (suppose) if she do a crime (incidental shock and kill someone by her car) can the govermeant put her in the prison? for someone live in the middle east where (King=God) it's hard to understand what is the ceremonial king or queen. I respect her for being a good and respected person (monarch) for 50 year!! but want to know what is exactly her rights (reserve powers)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saddon ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is puzzling:
As other colonies of the British Empire attained independence from the UK during her reign, she acceded to the newly created thrones as Queen of each respective realm so that throughout her 55 years on the throne she has been the sovereign of 32 nations, half of which either subsequently adopted other royal houses or became republics.
I don't know of any former commonwealth realms that went on to adopt another royal house. Unless I missing something or misreading this sentence (and please speak up iif I am), I'm going to change it... -- Jfruh ( talk) 01:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
. Your article on Elizabeth II says, "Her reign of over half a century has seen twelve different Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom and numerous Prime Ministers in the Commonwealth Realms."
There have in fact been twelve "prime ministerships," but only eleven prime ministers: Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Douglas-Home, Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Callahan, Thatcher, Major, Blair, and Brown. Harold Wilson was both Edward Heath's predecessor and his successor, which gives you a total of 11. Gregwuliger ( talk) 08:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC) gregwuliger
- Theaveng ( talk) 15:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression it was protocol only for subjects of the Queen to bow... Mind you even that is not a must these days some..Cherie Blair impolitely refused to even though her husband was more than happy to..bitch! lol -- Camaeron ( talk) 18:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that B Palace does not insist on anyone bowing or curtseying to the sovereign.In any case, why should one head of state be bound to bow to another head of state? Bowing implies subservience, and heads of state are equal.-- Gazzster ( talk) 21:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
To Gazzster: Though of course technically royalty and nobility outrank every "commoner"....even if they are a president... -- Camaeron 16:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed RC as oldest British ruler as he wasn't. Cromwell is the oldest former British ruler. For example, if Elizabeth II abdicates before 21 December, 2007? she wouldn't qualify as the oldest monarch/ruler. GoodDay ( talk) 21:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Er, Elizabeth isn't a British ruler at all. She does not rule Britain or any other place. Grassynoel ( talk) 11:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Elizabeth II has just become the oldest British monarch (and oldest of all British Isles monarchs -English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh-). GoodDay ( talk) 17:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Elizabeth is currently (20 December 2007) tied with Victoria. The Palace announced that Elizabeth would pass Victoria at 1700 UTC based on the time of day of the queens' relative births and Victoria's death. They are perfectly entitled to do so, but it does not make sense for Wikipedia. There are several articles related to longevity and time in service. These are measured in days, not hours. That is because in most cases it is impossible to know at what time the person was born or died. For the sake of consistency across the project, it makes more sense to use 21 December 2007 as the date the tie is broken. - Rrius ( talk) 23:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC) And so it being December 23 2007 then all can agree that Elizabeth II is the longest reigning monarch of Britain!
Something is wrong with the ancestry table. I can see the list of ancestors in the code for the page, but Firefox and IE7 are not rendering the table or a "show" button on the blue "Ancestors of Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" box. What's going on? - Rrius ( talk) 18:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The article previously stated: Additionally, the plan to make the princess patroness of Urdd Gobaith Cymru was dropped as two of the leading members were conscientious objectors, "a view shared by the princess herself". I removed the phrase at the end of the sentence since it made it sound as though Princess Elizabeth was herself a conscientious objector, which of course she was not. The sentence was probably supposed to mean that the princess also believed that the Urdd leaders were conscientious objectors, except that nobody else is identified in this sentence as also thinking that the Urdd leaders were conscientious objectors; thus, it doesn't make sense to say that she "shared" the view. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the section about the Apollo 11 goodwill message left by Elizabeth II. The source is:
Fabfivefreddy ( talk) 06:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not good at adding citations yet. Please help! Fabfivefreddy ( talk) 20:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Most of the other monarch articles show their official portrait as their image - should this article not show the same? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 12:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is worth mentioning anywhere, or of interest to anyone, but these are Queen Elizabeth's current 16 Prime Ministers. Aridd ( talk) 20:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Why am I not surprised? ;) Thanks. Aridd ( talk) 23:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
This article on Queen Victoria states "as a monarch Queen V. proposed to Albert". I found this very interesting. Why does it not link to another article? Surely this interesting fact deserves an article of its own? Does anyone have any info on this? Does this rule still exist today? Did QEII propose to Philip? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.56.188.39 ( talk) 15:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh yes of course, I knew that. Though I am still suprised that there isnt an article on it. Not that i would know what to look for. Monarchs proposal or something similar. Somebody must have some info on it! Thanks anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.56.174.13 ( talk) 16:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone here know how much the royal collection is worth? Somebody must have at least estimated its worth! Does anyone have any sources? -- 89.56.175.231 ( talk) 12:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Under the sub heading Context you state that Elizabeth ii reign of 56 years ranks behind Victoria 63yrs, George iii 59yrs, James i/vi 57yrs,Henry iii 56 years placing her 5th in the list of longest reigning british monarchs. James i/vi of England/Scotland i think should not be included in this list. James was king of scotland from 1567-1603 when Scotland was a separate monarchy.The thrones of England and scotland combined on the death of Elizabeth i in 1603.Therefore there was no british king James before 1603.James was only King of Britain from1603-1625.To add together 2 separate reigns for this King is inaccurate.
Elizabeth ii has been Queen of Great Britain/United kingdom from 6th Feb 1952.One continous reign.On 6/7th March 2008 the queen will equal and then surpass the reign of Henryiii 56 yrs 29 days to become the 3rd longest reigning monarch in 1200 yrs of british history.
I feel that the main article should be amended to include this fact. Thanks Howbridge ( talk) 12:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Agreed -- Camaeron ( talk) 19:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Article dated 7th March 2008 still ranks Elizabeth ii behind Henry iii in longest reigning monarchs context. The queen surpassed Henry iii reign of 56 years 29 days(18th oct 1216-16 Nov 1272)on 7th March 2008. Elizabeth ii having reigned 56 years 30 days by this date. Many Thanks Howbridge ( talk) 14:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks so much for telling me I hadn't realised. I have now updated it. Next time Be bold!. -- Camaeron ( talk) 15:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
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