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The text says "on the left side of the Rhine" but this could be either side of the Rhine, depending on whether I'm observing from the north or south. Assuming that the "left and right" referred to positions on the map, I've taken the step of changing "left and right" to "west and east". ("Left" has been assumed to mean "west", with "right" meaning "east").
Shouldn't the information here on the Palatinate state be found at Rhenish Palatinate instead of this article? It seems to me that the "Palatinate" article should just define the term and list the locations of different palatinates. Olessi 21:13, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I think you're right. There are many things (regions, historic regions, buildings, people) with "Pfalz" or "Palatinate" in their name, and this article should give directions to the various specific articles, like de:Pfalz. And probably a short description of where the term "pfalz/palatinate" comes from. Some of the articles this page should link to:
Markussep 18:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Let's move the content that relates specifically to the Rhenish Palatinate to that article. -- Chl 17:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. It's possible that this article isn't at the ideal title, but it was at least clear that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page, and Electoral Palatinate seems like a reasonable enough location for this article, at least for now. This move shouldn't be taken as any prejudice against choosing a better title for this article, if that turns out to make the most sense. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Palatinate → Electoral Palatinate and Palatinate (disambiguation) → Palatinate. Palatinate is sufficiently ambiguous with no one meaning predominant, all deriving from a root meaining of "a territory administered by a count palatine". Besides Electoral Palatinate, the other major use is for the contemporary region of Palatinate, as well as English palatinates. As an aside, this reflects what is used by German and some other interwikis ( de:Pfalz, de:Kurpfalz; fr:Palatinat; fr:Palatinat du Rhin; nl:Palts, nl:Rijnpalts). – AjaxSmack 01:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
Add any additional comments
Please also see related but separate move request at Talk:Palatinate of the Rhine#Requested move.
Why is Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz) nowhere to be found on Palatinate (disambiguation)? It seems like somebody must foolishly think that the only thing that can fit on the disambiguation page is the ones that fit under the scope of the current Palatinate article. Gene Nygaard 04:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I would really much prefer Elector Palatine, or, as in Markussep's discussion above, Rhenish Palatinate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page. But I'm not clear about the scope of the new Electoral Palatinate article -- will it still cover the periods before the state became an electorate? I wouldn't want it if we needed an additional County Palatine of the Rhine article or so -- that would get too complicated. Chl 21:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
First, sorry for my humble English.
Second, the article should not be moved in the dicussed way due to quite a number of reasons.
Third, the article should be devided in two different articles: a) Count Palatines (Germany), b) Electoral Palatine (= Rhenish Palatine) just to start with ;-).
Why?
A Count Palatine was a royal/emperial office which developed since the time of Charle Magne and which came to full powers under the Ottonen Kings/Emperors. The Count Palatine was a direct represantative of the royal/emperial power beside the Dukes representing the people/tribe of a designated area and lateron the territory itself. So, besides the Dukes of Saxony, Frankonia, Thuringia, Lower and Upper Lorraine, Swabia and Bavaria etc. there were Count Palatines for just the same areas (in case of Upper & Lower Lorraine only one Count Palatine who was called Count Palatine of the Rhine (Pfalzgraf bei Rhein) after the line of Ezzo Count Palatine of Lorraine died out (1085).
By the "Goldene Bulle" (1356) when the office of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was held by the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach they became one of the 7 Electorals (Kurfürsten) of the German Kings known as Electoral Palatine of the Rhine (note: and only later than that time the CoA was as shown in the article; in former times the CoA of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was "Sable with a lion rampant Or" - see Bild:Balduineum Wahl Heinrich VII.jpg on [
[1]]. The name "Kurpfalz" for the Electoral Palatine of the Rhine is quite a modern one which developed after the influence of the House of Wittelsbach was strengthened within that area.
Maps: a) For the time until 1356 you don't need a special map representing the "Counties Palatine", you may use one showing the old dukedoms; there is a suitable map esp. for the 10th/11th century within the wikipedia Netherland Historical Atlas project; for more modern times "in part 2" you would need a map showing the "Kurpfalz" (with a big part now in the Federal State of Rhine-Palatine (sic!) and other parts now in Baden-Württemberg and the Hesse) simply due to the fact that the Kurpfalz was not more than a small rudimetary relic of the once mighty Palatines of the Lorraines/Palatine of the Rhine.
ps: please don't call it "County Palatine of the Rhine". It is an absolute correct translation, but I'm afraid it will leave any English reader in an absolute mass getting mixed up with the meaning of a British county. The office bearer is a Count Palatine but speaking in territorial terms I would call the areas "Palatinates of ..."
Hope this helps a bit ... ;-) Wolfgang (no account here so far) aka Islandhopper (wikicommons) aka
91.64.0.69 01:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
(I am not modifying an archived discussion, but I am adding a postscript.) Greetings from
WikiProject Disambiguation. We just started a new round over at
Disambiguation pages with links and one of the most linkiferous disambiguation pages was [[
Palatinate]]. I started into it, and I have already fixed over 200 links (including a few I directed to [[
county palatine]], then realized my error and changed to [[
count palatine]]). Along the way I changed a few links [[
Palatinate (disambiguation)]].
Markussep noticed this, and was worried that I was starting to undo the page move. I'm not, but I appreciate the concern. The link to [[
Palatinate (disambiguation)]] is a note to disambiguators saying this link is not in need of disambiguation (see
Category:Redirects to disambiguation pages).
That brings me the point of this message. There are 18 links to [[
Palatinate (disambiguation)]] not in need of disambiguation, but there are over a hundred links to [[
Pfalz]] and [[
Palatinate]] still in need of repair. I was well on my way to fixing this, but now I'm stopping. It says at
Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Links_to_disambiguated_topics, A code of honor for creating disambiguation pages is to fix all resulting mis-directed links. Technically that means
GTBacchus is supposed to fix these links, but since there was a discussion, I am laying the responsibility on all of you who supported the move. I already did most of them; please fix the remaining links. I'll be back in a few days to see how you're doing. Note: [[
Count Palatine of Lotharingia]] is a redirect here, and can be used if it bugs you to link anachronous references like
Herman I (count palatine) directly to
Electoral Palatinate.
BTW, I support the move. Germans distinguish Pfalz from Kurpfalz, but in English we use Palatinate for both and for other things.
— Randall Bart 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I got impatient and fixed the rest of them. I wish I could convince peopel that they can't leave ambiguous links for the disambiguation faeries to fix, but we keep fixing them. — Randall Bart 00:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I think a map is needed, as Rheinland-Pfalz is the union of two historically different lands. I like the maps the on de:Pfalz (Region), I do not know how to import them to the English wiki or translate them properly though.
-- Jadger 19:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Map: link "download Gesamtdarstellung" on the right side 91.64.0.69 09:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The map is OK but it would be more informative with a key so I could know, for example, what "17" means. 71.171.103.178 ( talk) 02:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
This article needs to be merged with the article of Rhineland-Palatinate, as both articles are referring to one and the same subject: Rhenish Palatinate, Rhineland-Palatinate, or Electoral Palatinate, in German called Rheinland Pfalz or die Rheinische Pfalz, originally the Kurpfalz (Kur is archaic German for election as a noun, or electoral if used as an adjective). If there are slight deviations in the case of absorption of territory or towns, that may be brought to attention in the article Rhineland-Palatinate. To maintain the two separate articles as at present is totally misleading and wrong. Dieter Simon 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The numbering of the rulers skips from Henry II to Henry IV. What happened to Henry III? -- Jfruh ( talk) 01:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the list of rulers to a new article, List of Counts Palatine of the Rhine. This article was anomalous in combining an article about the territory with a list of rulers article. RandomCritic ( talk) 15:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 22:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Electorate of the Palatinate → Electoral Palatinate – I'd like to revert the page move by -Ilhador-.
Electoral Palatinate
is the normal English-language term (and closer to Kurpfalz
, the usual German term); Electorate of the Palatinate
, while accurate, is awkward (and a literal translation of the German Kurfürstentum von der Pfalz
).
For the sake of transparency, I have also just reverted the other edits by -Ilhador-.relisted -- Mike Cline ( talk) 13:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC) — OwenBlacker ( Talk) 00:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Someone is going around to related articles and changing Electoral Palatinate to Electorate of the Palatinate at every opportunity .... — Tamfang ( talk) 00:30, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't know whether it should be noted that the literal translation of the county's name is the (also on German) awkward "County Palatinate near Rhine." ("bei Rhein", grammatically correct it would be "bei dem Rhein(e)" or "beim Rhein", while Standard German wound be "an dem Rhein" or "am Rhein" (near the Rhine). "Of the Rhine", would, of course, be "des Rheins".) I wonder how that strange German construction came to be, which ich usually only used with town names ("bei Hamburg"). -- megA ( talk) 06:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
This is a controversial move that was disputed before (vide supra). And this move now effects several other articles that mention/address the subject. This should have been a matter for the talk page or WP:RM before any action. Today (13MAY2013 at 17:13) User:Hansmccx moved it to Electorate of the Palatinate using as a justification WP:TITLES which tells me nothing. From my view of sources, WP:COMMONNAME would be "Electoral Palatinate" just based on the number of mentions in books. With my interest in German history, I can attest that the sources don't often say "Electorate of the Palatinate" which is a cumbersome and inaccurate translation of the original German name Kurpfalz (heck, EotP isn't even mentioned in the lede of the article--not a promising sign). I've asked at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves for assistance also, perhaps even a third opinion, and asked Hansmccx for some insight on his move reasons.-- ColonelHenry ( talk) 16:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
For the record, I have just reverted several moves of articles by an anonymous editor to a newly created category, Category:Electorate of the Palatinate, that is clearly at odds with the main article here and with the various discussions above. I have recommended the category for a speedy delete as we already have a perfectly good category that reflects the current title i.e. Category:Electoral Palatinate. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 18:21, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The text says "on the left side of the Rhine" but this could be either side of the Rhine, depending on whether I'm observing from the north or south. Assuming that the "left and right" referred to positions on the map, I've taken the step of changing "left and right" to "west and east". ("Left" has been assumed to mean "west", with "right" meaning "east").
Shouldn't the information here on the Palatinate state be found at Rhenish Palatinate instead of this article? It seems to me that the "Palatinate" article should just define the term and list the locations of different palatinates. Olessi 21:13, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I think you're right. There are many things (regions, historic regions, buildings, people) with "Pfalz" or "Palatinate" in their name, and this article should give directions to the various specific articles, like de:Pfalz. And probably a short description of where the term "pfalz/palatinate" comes from. Some of the articles this page should link to:
Markussep 18:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Let's move the content that relates specifically to the Rhenish Palatinate to that article. -- Chl 17:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. It's possible that this article isn't at the ideal title, but it was at least clear that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page, and Electoral Palatinate seems like a reasonable enough location for this article, at least for now. This move shouldn't be taken as any prejudice against choosing a better title for this article, if that turns out to make the most sense. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Palatinate → Electoral Palatinate and Palatinate (disambiguation) → Palatinate. Palatinate is sufficiently ambiguous with no one meaning predominant, all deriving from a root meaining of "a territory administered by a count palatine". Besides Electoral Palatinate, the other major use is for the contemporary region of Palatinate, as well as English palatinates. As an aside, this reflects what is used by German and some other interwikis ( de:Pfalz, de:Kurpfalz; fr:Palatinat; fr:Palatinat du Rhin; nl:Palts, nl:Rijnpalts). – AjaxSmack 01:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
Add any additional comments
Please also see related but separate move request at Talk:Palatinate of the Rhine#Requested move.
Why is Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz) nowhere to be found on Palatinate (disambiguation)? It seems like somebody must foolishly think that the only thing that can fit on the disambiguation page is the ones that fit under the scope of the current Palatinate article. Gene Nygaard 04:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I would really much prefer Elector Palatine, or, as in Markussep's discussion above, Rhenish Palatinate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Palatinate should be a disambiguation page. But I'm not clear about the scope of the new Electoral Palatinate article -- will it still cover the periods before the state became an electorate? I wouldn't want it if we needed an additional County Palatine of the Rhine article or so -- that would get too complicated. Chl 21:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
First, sorry for my humble English.
Second, the article should not be moved in the dicussed way due to quite a number of reasons.
Third, the article should be devided in two different articles: a) Count Palatines (Germany), b) Electoral Palatine (= Rhenish Palatine) just to start with ;-).
Why?
A Count Palatine was a royal/emperial office which developed since the time of Charle Magne and which came to full powers under the Ottonen Kings/Emperors. The Count Palatine was a direct represantative of the royal/emperial power beside the Dukes representing the people/tribe of a designated area and lateron the territory itself. So, besides the Dukes of Saxony, Frankonia, Thuringia, Lower and Upper Lorraine, Swabia and Bavaria etc. there were Count Palatines for just the same areas (in case of Upper & Lower Lorraine only one Count Palatine who was called Count Palatine of the Rhine (Pfalzgraf bei Rhein) after the line of Ezzo Count Palatine of Lorraine died out (1085).
By the "Goldene Bulle" (1356) when the office of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was held by the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach they became one of the 7 Electorals (Kurfürsten) of the German Kings known as Electoral Palatine of the Rhine (note: and only later than that time the CoA was as shown in the article; in former times the CoA of the Pfalzgraf bei Rhein was "Sable with a lion rampant Or" - see Bild:Balduineum Wahl Heinrich VII.jpg on [
[1]]. The name "Kurpfalz" for the Electoral Palatine of the Rhine is quite a modern one which developed after the influence of the House of Wittelsbach was strengthened within that area.
Maps: a) For the time until 1356 you don't need a special map representing the "Counties Palatine", you may use one showing the old dukedoms; there is a suitable map esp. for the 10th/11th century within the wikipedia Netherland Historical Atlas project; for more modern times "in part 2" you would need a map showing the "Kurpfalz" (with a big part now in the Federal State of Rhine-Palatine (sic!) and other parts now in Baden-Württemberg and the Hesse) simply due to the fact that the Kurpfalz was not more than a small rudimetary relic of the once mighty Palatines of the Lorraines/Palatine of the Rhine.
ps: please don't call it "County Palatine of the Rhine". It is an absolute correct translation, but I'm afraid it will leave any English reader in an absolute mass getting mixed up with the meaning of a British county. The office bearer is a Count Palatine but speaking in territorial terms I would call the areas "Palatinates of ..."
Hope this helps a bit ... ;-) Wolfgang (no account here so far) aka Islandhopper (wikicommons) aka
91.64.0.69 01:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
(I am not modifying an archived discussion, but I am adding a postscript.) Greetings from
WikiProject Disambiguation. We just started a new round over at
Disambiguation pages with links and one of the most linkiferous disambiguation pages was [[
Palatinate]]. I started into it, and I have already fixed over 200 links (including a few I directed to [[
county palatine]], then realized my error and changed to [[
count palatine]]). Along the way I changed a few links [[
Palatinate (disambiguation)]].
Markussep noticed this, and was worried that I was starting to undo the page move. I'm not, but I appreciate the concern. The link to [[
Palatinate (disambiguation)]] is a note to disambiguators saying this link is not in need of disambiguation (see
Category:Redirects to disambiguation pages).
That brings me the point of this message. There are 18 links to [[
Palatinate (disambiguation)]] not in need of disambiguation, but there are over a hundred links to [[
Pfalz]] and [[
Palatinate]] still in need of repair. I was well on my way to fixing this, but now I'm stopping. It says at
Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Links_to_disambiguated_topics, A code of honor for creating disambiguation pages is to fix all resulting mis-directed links. Technically that means
GTBacchus is supposed to fix these links, but since there was a discussion, I am laying the responsibility on all of you who supported the move. I already did most of them; please fix the remaining links. I'll be back in a few days to see how you're doing. Note: [[
Count Palatine of Lotharingia]] is a redirect here, and can be used if it bugs you to link anachronous references like
Herman I (count palatine) directly to
Electoral Palatinate.
BTW, I support the move. Germans distinguish Pfalz from Kurpfalz, but in English we use Palatinate for both and for other things.
— Randall Bart 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I got impatient and fixed the rest of them. I wish I could convince peopel that they can't leave ambiguous links for the disambiguation faeries to fix, but we keep fixing them. — Randall Bart 00:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I think a map is needed, as Rheinland-Pfalz is the union of two historically different lands. I like the maps the on de:Pfalz (Region), I do not know how to import them to the English wiki or translate them properly though.
-- Jadger 19:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Map: link "download Gesamtdarstellung" on the right side 91.64.0.69 09:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The map is OK but it would be more informative with a key so I could know, for example, what "17" means. 71.171.103.178 ( talk) 02:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
This article needs to be merged with the article of Rhineland-Palatinate, as both articles are referring to one and the same subject: Rhenish Palatinate, Rhineland-Palatinate, or Electoral Palatinate, in German called Rheinland Pfalz or die Rheinische Pfalz, originally the Kurpfalz (Kur is archaic German for election as a noun, or electoral if used as an adjective). If there are slight deviations in the case of absorption of territory or towns, that may be brought to attention in the article Rhineland-Palatinate. To maintain the two separate articles as at present is totally misleading and wrong. Dieter Simon 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The numbering of the rulers skips from Henry II to Henry IV. What happened to Henry III? -- Jfruh ( talk) 01:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the list of rulers to a new article, List of Counts Palatine of the Rhine. This article was anomalous in combining an article about the territory with a list of rulers article. RandomCritic ( talk) 15:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 22:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Electorate of the Palatinate → Electoral Palatinate – I'd like to revert the page move by -Ilhador-.
Electoral Palatinate
is the normal English-language term (and closer to Kurpfalz
, the usual German term); Electorate of the Palatinate
, while accurate, is awkward (and a literal translation of the German Kurfürstentum von der Pfalz
).
For the sake of transparency, I have also just reverted the other edits by -Ilhador-.relisted -- Mike Cline ( talk) 13:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC) — OwenBlacker ( Talk) 00:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Someone is going around to related articles and changing Electoral Palatinate to Electorate of the Palatinate at every opportunity .... — Tamfang ( talk) 00:30, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't know whether it should be noted that the literal translation of the county's name is the (also on German) awkward "County Palatinate near Rhine." ("bei Rhein", grammatically correct it would be "bei dem Rhein(e)" or "beim Rhein", while Standard German wound be "an dem Rhein" or "am Rhein" (near the Rhine). "Of the Rhine", would, of course, be "des Rheins".) I wonder how that strange German construction came to be, which ich usually only used with town names ("bei Hamburg"). -- megA ( talk) 06:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
This is a controversial move that was disputed before (vide supra). And this move now effects several other articles that mention/address the subject. This should have been a matter for the talk page or WP:RM before any action. Today (13MAY2013 at 17:13) User:Hansmccx moved it to Electorate of the Palatinate using as a justification WP:TITLES which tells me nothing. From my view of sources, WP:COMMONNAME would be "Electoral Palatinate" just based on the number of mentions in books. With my interest in German history, I can attest that the sources don't often say "Electorate of the Palatinate" which is a cumbersome and inaccurate translation of the original German name Kurpfalz (heck, EotP isn't even mentioned in the lede of the article--not a promising sign). I've asked at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves for assistance also, perhaps even a third opinion, and asked Hansmccx for some insight on his move reasons.-- ColonelHenry ( talk) 16:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
For the record, I have just reverted several moves of articles by an anonymous editor to a newly created category, Category:Electorate of the Palatinate, that is clearly at odds with the main article here and with the various discussions above. I have recommended the category for a speedy delete as we already have a perfectly good category that reflects the current title i.e. Category:Electoral Palatinate. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 18:21, 28 September 2016 (UTC)