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Eric of Hlathir IP Address 09:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Let's try to do this in an organized way and try to get a reasonably comprehensive list of the historical sources which mention Eiríkr.
The later kings' sagas are almost completely derivative works from these. Haukur 23:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Not very reliable as history but interesting nevertheless.
Perhaps not so informative, but there's a few letters in the Diplomatarium Norvegicum [1] where "Yrric dux" is listed as a witness, youngest being from 1023 Fornadan (t) 06:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Why the use of Eirik and Eiríkr over Eric? What is the difference between Eirik and Eiríkr? Why isn't the English Eric employed? I raised this issue (naming) several times in Scotland-related articles employing hard-to-pronounce Gaelic names over well known Anglicisations. I was charged by some with "targetting" Scots, so, in the name of equality, I am targetting Norsemen too. This is an English encyclopaedia which should employ English usages where they exist and are accepted. As Eric is, it should be used. Furthermore, Eirik is not necessarily the contemporary usage as the sources cited indicate. I don't know about problems of consistency this will cause, but that's not my problem: my problem is this article's use of forms with which most Anglophones are not familiar and cannot properly pronounce.
As an aside, Stenton gives a death date of 1031. Srnec 03:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if one form is more accurate than another. I think Eric is by far more readable. I am not sure what's more consistent on Wikipedia: I think the articles on the many Erics of Sweden use that form, but otherwise I'm unsure. As to scholarly practice, you seem to have shown that Eiríkr predominates today. I just wonder why modern scholarly practice is more important than past practice. Does modern include the entire post-medieval period or just the past one or two hundred years? Or does it only cover contemporary scholarship? If the last, I have problems with that. But Stenton, still the utmost authority on Anglo-Saxon England, calls him Eric if that means anything. I would prefer, for reasons of readability, where consistency and accuracy are in doubt, to use Eric as the name at the tops of the page and throughout the article, with the other forms cited for completeness. Srnec 14:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that Anglicisation is not so important for nonroyalty. Your citations provide evidence of many variant forms (including contempraneous use of Eric) and I think its best to include a short section in the article detailing the many ways his name and titles were rendered in and around his own time. Finally, I would employ Eric throughout the article for readability, though the title and the opening paragraph need not conform to this. Srnec 17:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Looks improved to me. Srnec 00:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
He was a medieval ruler, almost a king but not nominally such. Naming conventions direct him to be titled by English first name(s) and with his main title. His title of course could be earl, but I am aware of Jarl being a somewhat specific case in medieval Scandinavia, and I am willing to follow the exception of a honorific being not translatable without resulting to confusion. Analogous examples are Robert I, Duke of Burgundy and Valdemar, Duke of Finland. Maed 12:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes, the family seat is the name, irrespective of what is ruled. Prince of Orange was leader of the Netherlands, but we cannot use the latter as the title. I would be happy if Eric was commonly titled by the realm he ruked, but tell me whether he was or not? I know that Ladejarl has been used of him, but no clear other territorial designation. The title should be included, whatever is the best title. Well, Haconson/Hakonarson is something I would drop altogether (but were there some people who feel it is something indispensable?). This guy however should be "Eric", as that's the common usage. Maed 19:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm getting the impression you're trying to get this up to WP:FA... 's that right? ;) — Nightst a llion (?) 10:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Scottish control of Lothian was strengthened with Máel Coluim II's victory over the Northumbrians and the Battle of Carham (1018).
If I may quote from the text: "And in 1017 Canute...gave...Northumbria to Eric...Eric remained as earl of Northumbria until his death. His earlship is primarily notable in that it is never recorded that he ever fought with the Scots or the Britons of Strathclyde, who were usually constantly threatening Northumbria...Eric's death can not strictly be placed more precisely than between 1023 and 1033."
However, Máel Coluim II of Scotland won a victory over the the Northumbrians at the Battle of Carham in 1018. Clearly that battle falls in the time period when Eric was earl of Northumbria. My sources are multiple, but for example:
A History of Northumberland, in Three Parts by John Hodgson, John Hodgson-Hinde, James Raine - 1858 - Page 162 - "Symeon, in his Church History, gives an account of this battle, fought at Carham on the Tweed, AD 1018."
The ruler of Northumberland at this time is named as Eadulf not Eric. Though of course Northumberland was a dual Earldom and Eric had the Southern, Yorkshire, end; I find it hard to think, given the scale of the battle, that Eric would not have had even a small involvement. It does apear that after the battle a state of peace prevails between Northumberland and Scotland. Possibly some more research required here.
Additional, the date given for Eric gaining his Earldom is the death of Uchtread in 1016.
I dont like this "Eric Haakonsson", semi-modern-Norwegian spelling. I dont think it was right to move this article boldly to Eric Haakonsson without discussion, when there had been an existing talk thread above #Naming where an agreement was reached (between Haukur and Srnec).
Thhist who performed the move commented "We use anglicised names" however, "Eirik Hakonarson (Earl of Norway)" is also anglicized spelling, and it is the one that as appears in Penguin classics translation of Icelandic sagas.
WP:UE on foreign names advises using prevalent spelling as used by RS. Since primary sources of substances are almost all Old Icelandic literature, I think scholarly commentaries on them (in English) are likely to fall on the "Eiríkr Hákonarson" or "Eirik Hakonarson" spelling.
As a crude measure, I did a books.google search (with +"Norway" as filter to constrain to English language books) and the count on the current name was rather low:
-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 20:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Eiríkr Hákonarson article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Eric of Hlathir IP Address 09:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Let's try to do this in an organized way and try to get a reasonably comprehensive list of the historical sources which mention Eiríkr.
The later kings' sagas are almost completely derivative works from these. Haukur 23:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Not very reliable as history but interesting nevertheless.
Perhaps not so informative, but there's a few letters in the Diplomatarium Norvegicum [1] where "Yrric dux" is listed as a witness, youngest being from 1023 Fornadan (t) 06:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Why the use of Eirik and Eiríkr over Eric? What is the difference between Eirik and Eiríkr? Why isn't the English Eric employed? I raised this issue (naming) several times in Scotland-related articles employing hard-to-pronounce Gaelic names over well known Anglicisations. I was charged by some with "targetting" Scots, so, in the name of equality, I am targetting Norsemen too. This is an English encyclopaedia which should employ English usages where they exist and are accepted. As Eric is, it should be used. Furthermore, Eirik is not necessarily the contemporary usage as the sources cited indicate. I don't know about problems of consistency this will cause, but that's not my problem: my problem is this article's use of forms with which most Anglophones are not familiar and cannot properly pronounce.
As an aside, Stenton gives a death date of 1031. Srnec 03:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if one form is more accurate than another. I think Eric is by far more readable. I am not sure what's more consistent on Wikipedia: I think the articles on the many Erics of Sweden use that form, but otherwise I'm unsure. As to scholarly practice, you seem to have shown that Eiríkr predominates today. I just wonder why modern scholarly practice is more important than past practice. Does modern include the entire post-medieval period or just the past one or two hundred years? Or does it only cover contemporary scholarship? If the last, I have problems with that. But Stenton, still the utmost authority on Anglo-Saxon England, calls him Eric if that means anything. I would prefer, for reasons of readability, where consistency and accuracy are in doubt, to use Eric as the name at the tops of the page and throughout the article, with the other forms cited for completeness. Srnec 14:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that Anglicisation is not so important for nonroyalty. Your citations provide evidence of many variant forms (including contempraneous use of Eric) and I think its best to include a short section in the article detailing the many ways his name and titles were rendered in and around his own time. Finally, I would employ Eric throughout the article for readability, though the title and the opening paragraph need not conform to this. Srnec 17:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Looks improved to me. Srnec 00:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
He was a medieval ruler, almost a king but not nominally such. Naming conventions direct him to be titled by English first name(s) and with his main title. His title of course could be earl, but I am aware of Jarl being a somewhat specific case in medieval Scandinavia, and I am willing to follow the exception of a honorific being not translatable without resulting to confusion. Analogous examples are Robert I, Duke of Burgundy and Valdemar, Duke of Finland. Maed 12:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes, the family seat is the name, irrespective of what is ruled. Prince of Orange was leader of the Netherlands, but we cannot use the latter as the title. I would be happy if Eric was commonly titled by the realm he ruked, but tell me whether he was or not? I know that Ladejarl has been used of him, but no clear other territorial designation. The title should be included, whatever is the best title. Well, Haconson/Hakonarson is something I would drop altogether (but were there some people who feel it is something indispensable?). This guy however should be "Eric", as that's the common usage. Maed 19:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm getting the impression you're trying to get this up to WP:FA... 's that right? ;) — Nightst a llion (?) 10:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Scottish control of Lothian was strengthened with Máel Coluim II's victory over the Northumbrians and the Battle of Carham (1018).
If I may quote from the text: "And in 1017 Canute...gave...Northumbria to Eric...Eric remained as earl of Northumbria until his death. His earlship is primarily notable in that it is never recorded that he ever fought with the Scots or the Britons of Strathclyde, who were usually constantly threatening Northumbria...Eric's death can not strictly be placed more precisely than between 1023 and 1033."
However, Máel Coluim II of Scotland won a victory over the the Northumbrians at the Battle of Carham in 1018. Clearly that battle falls in the time period when Eric was earl of Northumbria. My sources are multiple, but for example:
A History of Northumberland, in Three Parts by John Hodgson, John Hodgson-Hinde, James Raine - 1858 - Page 162 - "Symeon, in his Church History, gives an account of this battle, fought at Carham on the Tweed, AD 1018."
The ruler of Northumberland at this time is named as Eadulf not Eric. Though of course Northumberland was a dual Earldom and Eric had the Southern, Yorkshire, end; I find it hard to think, given the scale of the battle, that Eric would not have had even a small involvement. It does apear that after the battle a state of peace prevails between Northumberland and Scotland. Possibly some more research required here.
Additional, the date given for Eric gaining his Earldom is the death of Uchtread in 1016.
I dont like this "Eric Haakonsson", semi-modern-Norwegian spelling. I dont think it was right to move this article boldly to Eric Haakonsson without discussion, when there had been an existing talk thread above #Naming where an agreement was reached (between Haukur and Srnec).
Thhist who performed the move commented "We use anglicised names" however, "Eirik Hakonarson (Earl of Norway)" is also anglicized spelling, and it is the one that as appears in Penguin classics translation of Icelandic sagas.
WP:UE on foreign names advises using prevalent spelling as used by RS. Since primary sources of substances are almost all Old Icelandic literature, I think scholarly commentaries on them (in English) are likely to fall on the "Eiríkr Hákonarson" or "Eirik Hakonarson" spelling.
As a crude measure, I did a books.google search (with +"Norway" as filter to constrain to English language books) and the count on the current name was rather low:
-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 20:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Eiríkr Hákonarson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)