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I believe that there could be different wording used instead of the word 'unsuccessful' twice when talking about her political career. It also appears that the 16th citation no longer is an existing link. Otherwise this appears to be a very well written page. Thank you for contributing your information! Rosburn ( talk) 05:44, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Rosburn.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello,
it would be helpful to the reader to know more about her approach and conclusions, as she describes it in Barker, Eileen "The Scientific Study of Religion? You Must Be Joking!" Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 34 (1995), pp. 287-310. There she describes the position of the sociologist, the concepts of scientific research of these movements, the position of a scientist within a field of differing viewpoints which are not or much less scientifically based, how she made this researched information available to the public etc. I think this artcle should present more on her viewpoint, and then can have "controversial viewpoints of other personalities". Then I suggest to make a difference between a "controversial" person and a specific opinion or scientific interpretation which can be controversely dicussed. English is not my first language and I do not know enough about your editing procedure due to time constraints, but I like to read wikipedia and appreciate your work! Thank you so much for your efforts!
Kind regards!
Thomas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.54.87 ( talk) 09:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Sociologist shows "Moonies" are actually fairly normal, August 12, 1998
Reviewer: edpoor@mailexcite.com from Long Island, NY
Sociologist Eileen Barker spent considerable time "on campus" watching both old-time and potential Unificationists. She dispels the myth that the Unification Church uses some extraordinary set of techniques to trick or coerce people into joining (her statistics show that only a tiny percentage keep up their contact even after spending a whole weekend at a workshop). Although Barker never warms to the church (no accounting for taste <g>), she presents a detailed and remarkably fair viewpoint, which may dismay both those who have preconceived notions about the church and those who think it should not be criticized at all.
Raw material for the article:
One good indicator of the non-existence of mind-control techniques is the ineffectiveness of NRM recruitment programs. "Eileen Barker documents that out of 1000 people persuaded by the Moonies [Unification Church] to attend one of their overnight programs in 1979, 90% had no further involvement. Only 8% joined for more than one week..." 4
Another indicator of the non-existence of mind control is the high turnover rate of members. Eileen Barker mentions that there is a 50% attrition rate during the members' first two years. [1]
I met Ms. Barker at an AAR conference in November. When I gushingly praised her Making of a Moonie, she acted suspicious, immediately asking What do you want and complained that I was " love-bombing" her. J. Gordon Melton, sitting next to her, made no comment.
She interviewed me briefly and took my address. Uncle Ed 14:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I guess she likes traveling to the States. By the way, how about merging her book and bio? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 16:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Where is the indication or proof that Eileen Barker is more than average controversial compared to other people who write about cults and NRMs? Andries 21:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
How does the following article support the statement that she is controversial? I do not see it.
Andries 09:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll put back the segment with Dvorkin. BabyDweezil claims that this isn't criticism at all. (Funny, because for me, it looks that Dvorkin is saying in a very polite way that she is seriously wrong). BabyDweezil didn't modify the text, or put it in the non-criticism section - so this is clearly an attempt to simply remove something.
I'll revert the change that shortened the "cult in our midst" segment. First, per WP:NPOV, it is important to tell Barkers side of the story - even Singer/Lalich did so, in fairness, and so should we (although I can imagine that he excuse is not very credible). Second, it is important that the words "procult apologist" are mentioned: in the past, different people claimed that all sort of critics of cult apologists didn't use such words. -- Tilman 20:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Heh heh, I see it has already been done. As usual, I am of course willing to compromise with the style to make it more NPOV if other editors think so. But please, be constructive, not destructive. -- Tilman 20:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
BD, Instead of just deleting what you don't like - why not do some research and add more positive information about her? -- Tilman 21:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Dvorkin says ""an unusual response from persons claiming to be experts in the field of NRMs." I'm sorry, to include such an off the cuff opinion (by a guy who serves as a propaganda minister for the Russian Orthodox Church and has been cited as fomenting religious unrest in Russia by human rights groups) as constituting "criticism" worthy of an encyclopedia entry is just too much of a stretch. If you guys just want to bash Barker, come up with some reliable serious discussions of her work. BabyDweezil 21:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Criticism in this context would doing a serious analysis and consideration of the viewpoint of a fellow scholar (even though Dvorkin does not have a scholarly record) and if you disagree, you discuss why those views fall short. The Dvorkin quote does none of that, its somewhere in between a sound bite ("an unusual response") and an Ad hominem attack (calling scholars "persons claiming to be experts"). Then it would get not only my seal of approval, but more importantly, that of the academic community as a whole. BabyDweezil 23:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I reverted it back in. It has been in since July 2006 with no protest; only recently, it was mentioned (by Andries) that the text didn't properly characterize the content of the source given, so I corrected it with a more verbatim description. -- Tilman 08:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have searched him. Most results indicate he is an anti-cult activist in Russia, in each reference he seems to be listed as affiliated with a different organization, all of them related to the Orthodox Church. Nothing indicating the university where he is a professor or a bibliography of his scholarly articles. searching "Professor Dvorkin" just turns up blogs and the like, no reliable sources indicating where he is a professor. Am I missing something? BabyDweezil 22:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
For a respected scholar as Barker, this article is unbalanced, as the criticism section is as large as the rest of the text. The article needs to present other material about Barker, such as her work at INFORM and more about her views. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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I believe that there could be different wording used instead of the word 'unsuccessful' twice when talking about her political career. It also appears that the 16th citation no longer is an existing link. Otherwise this appears to be a very well written page. Thank you for contributing your information! Rosburn ( talk) 05:44, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Rosburn.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello,
it would be helpful to the reader to know more about her approach and conclusions, as she describes it in Barker, Eileen "The Scientific Study of Religion? You Must Be Joking!" Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 34 (1995), pp. 287-310. There she describes the position of the sociologist, the concepts of scientific research of these movements, the position of a scientist within a field of differing viewpoints which are not or much less scientifically based, how she made this researched information available to the public etc. I think this artcle should present more on her viewpoint, and then can have "controversial viewpoints of other personalities". Then I suggest to make a difference between a "controversial" person and a specific opinion or scientific interpretation which can be controversely dicussed. English is not my first language and I do not know enough about your editing procedure due to time constraints, but I like to read wikipedia and appreciate your work! Thank you so much for your efforts!
Kind regards!
Thomas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.54.87 ( talk) 09:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Sociologist shows "Moonies" are actually fairly normal, August 12, 1998
Reviewer: edpoor@mailexcite.com from Long Island, NY
Sociologist Eileen Barker spent considerable time "on campus" watching both old-time and potential Unificationists. She dispels the myth that the Unification Church uses some extraordinary set of techniques to trick or coerce people into joining (her statistics show that only a tiny percentage keep up their contact even after spending a whole weekend at a workshop). Although Barker never warms to the church (no accounting for taste <g>), she presents a detailed and remarkably fair viewpoint, which may dismay both those who have preconceived notions about the church and those who think it should not be criticized at all.
Raw material for the article:
One good indicator of the non-existence of mind-control techniques is the ineffectiveness of NRM recruitment programs. "Eileen Barker documents that out of 1000 people persuaded by the Moonies [Unification Church] to attend one of their overnight programs in 1979, 90% had no further involvement. Only 8% joined for more than one week..." 4
Another indicator of the non-existence of mind control is the high turnover rate of members. Eileen Barker mentions that there is a 50% attrition rate during the members' first two years. [1]
I met Ms. Barker at an AAR conference in November. When I gushingly praised her Making of a Moonie, she acted suspicious, immediately asking What do you want and complained that I was " love-bombing" her. J. Gordon Melton, sitting next to her, made no comment.
She interviewed me briefly and took my address. Uncle Ed 14:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I guess she likes traveling to the States. By the way, how about merging her book and bio? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 16:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Where is the indication or proof that Eileen Barker is more than average controversial compared to other people who write about cults and NRMs? Andries 21:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
How does the following article support the statement that she is controversial? I do not see it.
Andries 09:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll put back the segment with Dvorkin. BabyDweezil claims that this isn't criticism at all. (Funny, because for me, it looks that Dvorkin is saying in a very polite way that she is seriously wrong). BabyDweezil didn't modify the text, or put it in the non-criticism section - so this is clearly an attempt to simply remove something.
I'll revert the change that shortened the "cult in our midst" segment. First, per WP:NPOV, it is important to tell Barkers side of the story - even Singer/Lalich did so, in fairness, and so should we (although I can imagine that he excuse is not very credible). Second, it is important that the words "procult apologist" are mentioned: in the past, different people claimed that all sort of critics of cult apologists didn't use such words. -- Tilman 20:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Heh heh, I see it has already been done. As usual, I am of course willing to compromise with the style to make it more NPOV if other editors think so. But please, be constructive, not destructive. -- Tilman 20:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
BD, Instead of just deleting what you don't like - why not do some research and add more positive information about her? -- Tilman 21:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Dvorkin says ""an unusual response from persons claiming to be experts in the field of NRMs." I'm sorry, to include such an off the cuff opinion (by a guy who serves as a propaganda minister for the Russian Orthodox Church and has been cited as fomenting religious unrest in Russia by human rights groups) as constituting "criticism" worthy of an encyclopedia entry is just too much of a stretch. If you guys just want to bash Barker, come up with some reliable serious discussions of her work. BabyDweezil 21:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Criticism in this context would doing a serious analysis and consideration of the viewpoint of a fellow scholar (even though Dvorkin does not have a scholarly record) and if you disagree, you discuss why those views fall short. The Dvorkin quote does none of that, its somewhere in between a sound bite ("an unusual response") and an Ad hominem attack (calling scholars "persons claiming to be experts"). Then it would get not only my seal of approval, but more importantly, that of the academic community as a whole. BabyDweezil 23:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I reverted it back in. It has been in since July 2006 with no protest; only recently, it was mentioned (by Andries) that the text didn't properly characterize the content of the source given, so I corrected it with a more verbatim description. -- Tilman 08:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have searched him. Most results indicate he is an anti-cult activist in Russia, in each reference he seems to be listed as affiliated with a different organization, all of them related to the Orthodox Church. Nothing indicating the university where he is a professor or a bibliography of his scholarly articles. searching "Professor Dvorkin" just turns up blogs and the like, no reliable sources indicating where he is a professor. Am I missing something? BabyDweezil 22:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
For a respected scholar as Barker, this article is unbalanced, as the criticism section is as large as the rest of the text. The article needs to present other material about Barker, such as her work at INFORM and more about her views. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eileen Barker. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:40, 21 December 2016 (UTC)