This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The public opinion section was changed to be chronological. I believe the most important points should go at the top. Reverse chronological would be better, though being recent does not necessarily make a point important.-- RichardMathews 22:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I've read the arguments above, and have removed the NPOV tag. The main argument seemed to be over the article's existence, not over the content. That argument was settled by the AfD. Any other issues can be fixed. Rich Farmbrough. 21:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear anonymous user. Please discuss your reasons here and work toward improvements rather than tagging the article yet again and thus devaluing the considerable work of others on a controversial article.-- 164.106.227.118 21:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Oops, the computer logged me out, making me anonymous, too!-- Beth Wellington 21:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Although many factual assertions of this article are true (I assume), the synthesis of these facts into a "movement to impeach..." appears to be original research (which is prohibited - see WP:NOR). No sources are cited for the central claims of the article. Mirror Vax 23:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Mirror Vax, it's really not clear at all what the problem is. You say you want a citation from an authoritative source. Can you please provide a hypothetical example of what that would look like? I mean, one only has to do a google search of "impeach bush" and you will find thousands of hits that support that there are movements to impeach bush. So, im really not sure why you dis-believe that they exist, that you require a citation. It is beyond reason. Its like requiring a citation that mount everest exists. This is a waste of everyones time. -- Stbalbach 19:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Merrian-Webster: 2a : TENDENCY, TREND <detected a movement toward fairer pricing> b : a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end <the civil rights movement>
Dictionary.com: 3a. A series of actions and events taking place over a period of time and working to foster a principle or policy: a movement toward world peace. 3b. An organized effort by supporters of a common goal: a leader of the labor movement.
Also social movement on Dictionary.com: n : a group of people with a common ideology who try together to achieve certain general goals; "he was a charter member of the movement"; "politicians have to respect a mass movement"; "he led the national liberation front" [syn: movement, front]
People calling for impeachment does not necessarily make a "movement", but when a substantial number of people and groups of people work together vigorously to achieve a common purpose, that is a movement, by definition. Kevin baas 19:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The lead paragraph defining the movement is very awkwardly worded and completely unsupported. It currently reads:
I see no evidence in the real world of the latter definition. A web search finds it used exclusively to refer to an effort by particular organizations to lobby Congress and solicit public opinion in favor of impeachment. I did a google search for the phrases "movement to impeach" and "bush" (736 hits) and for the phrases "impeachment movement" and "bush" (929 hits). The top hits (other than Wikipedia and a news article about this Wikipedia article) were:
Can we agree on a definition that better matches these real-world examples of using the phrase?-- RichardMathews 16:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
No, it is not. At best, polls indicate that someone holds a certain view, not that they're part of a movement. As I've already mentioned before, you can find the most ridiculous polls online, because they're so easy for people to create and sign. The "stop ashlee simpson from singing" poll has over 300,000 signatures so far. Does that mean there's a movement to stop Ashlee Simpson from Singing? Hardly, I doubt there's anyone who really took it all that seriously, since it's just an internet poll which is effortless to sign.
impeachbush.org and votetoimpeach.org exist exclusively as websites and their only support is in the form of a worthless internet poll. They have only managed to double the Ashlee Simpson poll in number of votes. Given that this is supposedly a significant movement, one that is serious, I would expect it to have an order of magnitude more votes. disinfo.com, informationclearinghouse.info, irregular times and so forth are unknown websits that just happen to have articles on people working for impeachment--they are not part of the movement. The impeachbushcoalition is just a blog, not an organization and all they do is post articles. impeachcentral.com has an alexa rank of 5 million.
Please make a list of just websites that directly represent a significant movement (insigificant websites don't count). Make sure each one in the new list represents a significant movement, because I'm not going to go through them all, I'm just going to test one at random and if I find it doesn't qualify, then that only says to me that you can't construct such a list. Remember, they must be working to advance the cause, not simply believe that he should be impeached.
Definitions from the Compact OED which are relevent here: 3 a group of people working to advance a shared cause. 4 a series of organized actions to advance a shared cause. ~ Compact OED
Individuals are therefore not a movement. It needs to be a group of people.
Nathan J. Yoder 11:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there are groups working towards a shared cause for everything imaginable, but it doesn't mean we should have wikipedia articles on every fringe minority movement. You say my argument is weak, but you don't bother actually addressing it. The burden of proof is on you, demonstrate that there is some significant movement. If the best you've got is some internet polls, then you're out of luck. Nathan J. Yoder 07:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The KKK used to be big and it has a lot of historical relevence, that's why it has an article. As this isn't part of history yet, since he's still in office, you can't argue historically nor that it is big. You didn't read what I said. That 1/3rd of people aren't all part of aren't part of a movement. You shouldn't be editing the article if you can't distinguish between support for an idea and being part of a movement for that idea. I mean, I like strawberry ice cream, does that mean I'm part of a pro-strawberry ice cream movement?
Your criteria for burden of proof is silly. I'm asking the people who support the article to back up the most basic assumption of it--that there is a significant movement. Otherwise anyone can create an article for any reason and require that the burden of proof be on the people who don't want it to support its most basic premise. I'll just go create a "Movement to support strawberry ice cream" article and require that everyone else prove that there isn't one. I'm not "holding the article hostage," I'm just putting an NPOV tag on it. If you call putting an NPOV tag on an article, "holding it hostage," then I don't know what to say.
And I have never used ad hominem, that is a nice try though. You, on the other hand, supported someone who removed the fact from the article that there were no impeachment proceedings and supported them to insert a personally speculative statement (forbidden by WP:NOT) implying there would be impeachment proceedings. That reeks of bias. Nathan J. Yoder 17:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Then why did you accuse me of using ad hominem abusive? Ad hominem abusive is, by definition, a personal attack. It seems now you're retracting that statement. You didn't just cite ad hominem as an example, you said "liberal use of ad hominem abusive." So I'm to believe you were referring to some hypothetical person there? I have not ever used logical fallacies, but feel free to point them out. You explicitly supported this edit by Sterling Newberry which was not only POV, but implied there were would be an impeachment proceeding. You also defended Sterling Newberry as not in any way inserting POV into the article, even though he was the one who removed the statement (at least 2 times) saying that there weren't any impeachment proceedings.
And your argument is weak, since you haven't bothered supporting it. You say that there are a significant number of people who are part of a movement, but your only evidence is the number of people who simply agree with impeachment. Mind you, the same number Clinton had. Did Clinton have a significant impeachment movement against him? Following your logic, yes he did. I'm sorry, but a lack of evidence doesn't make something clear to me. If you're going to m ake a point that there are also a significant number that are part of a movement, you better support it with something. Nathan J. Yoder 19:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Nothing in the article supports this being a significant movement and your refusal to provide evidence that there is a significant movement is an implicit concession that there wasn't one. Just admit it when you're wrong. And you have your facts wrong. The impeachment hearings were from November 9th-December 12th. There were polls on it in August, September and October. All before the impeachment hearings were even started. It's not actually a logical fallacy to get a fact wrong, but if it were, you'd be doing it right now since you clearly got your facts mixed up and apparently didn't even check when the hearings started. Getting a fact wrong wouldn't be a false analogy by any measure, I'm not sure how you came up with that one. Nice try though. Also, you meant 'retroactively.' Nathan J. Yoder 13:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
There are many mainstream media publications that have called for the impeachment of Bush in the last few months. Sukiari 04:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I suppose this will of some use to somebody editing this article: Spying, the Constitution — and the ‘I-word’ - 2006 will offer up Nixon-era nastiness and a chorus of calls to impeach Bush. bd2412 T 23:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This is not a vote or poll, but it seems like the article would be less controversial and more accurate if it was called Movements to impeach George W. Bush (plural movements) .. since the article makes clear there is more than one movement, and more than one definition of the term movement applies. Thoughts? -- Stbalbach 02:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I have no problem with this.-- Beth Wellington 07:14, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The common meaning of the word "Movement" in the sense emploted in the title is multiple people/groups working together towards a single end. Pluralization in that sense would be redundant. Kevin baas 22:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
That would be an improvement. While "movement" can be used in a sense described by Kevin (3a in Houghton-Mifflin), that usage is rather uncommon. Certainly the immediate interpretation is as in "An organized effort by supporters of a common goal" (3b in Houghton-Mifflin) Can I propose the name "Calls to impeach George W. Bush"? -- Brian Brondel 22:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure media editorials are encylopedic or notable. Who is THOMAS G. DONLAN from Barrons and why should we care what he has to say, is he really that notable that his personal opinions are to be included in an Encyclopedia? -- Stbalbach 03:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Moved the section here for discussion:
Editorials by business magazines seem more notable as a subsection for opionion than that of entertainers. In an editorial, Donlan speaks for Barrons. Barrons, not Dolan is notable.
Media Editorials
"It is important to be clear that an impeachment case, if it comes to that, would not be about wiretapping, or about a possible Constitutional right not to be wiretapped. It would be about the power of Congress to set wiretapping rules by law, and it is about the obligation of the president to follow the rules in the Acts that he and his predecessors signed into law." [1]
There is material in the article that implies it is related to impeachment, but the sources themselves make no mention of impeachment. This is original research. I'll go ahead and remove them, and list them here and the reasons why it was removed:
Considered the first step to impeachment by whom? Isnt it possible this is simply a Resolution of Inquiry without a hidden agenda? It's original research to draw a connection to impeachment with this H.Res
This article is about the impeachment of GWB, not Karl Rove. In any case, this is simply a question and not a statement: is Rove impeachable? We dont know.
So, if Bush supporters chant "Nuke Iran" at a rally, does that mean Bush himself supports the nukeing of Iran? This does not belong under the Congressional activities section. Moved to the "Public demonstrations" section.
Tieing this activity with a movement to impeach bush is original research. Unless Nadler has said otherwise.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
-- Stbalbach 17:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC
You state, "the sources themselves make no mention of impeachment"
You are incorrect. Did you read the sources or only the parts cited? If needed, I will remedy it by quoting the part about impeachment, rather than just linking to it.
"Willful disregard of a law is potentially an impeachable offense. It is at least as impeachable as having a sexual escapade under the Oval Office desk and lying about it later. The members of the House Judiciary Committee who staged the impeachment of President Clinton ought to be as outraged at this situation. They ought to investigate it, consider it carefully and report either a bill that would change the wiretap laws to suit the president or a bill of impeachment."
"It is important to be clear that an impeachment case, if it comes to that, would not be about wiretapping, or about a possible Constitutional right not to be wiretapped. It would be about the power of Congress to set wiretapping rules by law, and it is about the obligation of the president to follow the rules in the Acts that he and his predecessors signed into law."
I believe I had part of the second paragraph in there the last time you axed this source on other grounds.
No mention of impeachment. The title was "Talking about impeachment"
The lead paragraph was
"The dwindling circle of right-wing defenders of the Bush-Cheney presidency would have Americans believe that only the most reckless partisans would even consider the prospect of censuring or perhaps even impeaching the president and vice president. But the prospect of officially sanctioning Bush and Cheney, as has now been proposed by U.S. Rep. John Conyers, the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, is gaining ground in unexpected quarters."
I posit that web polls, as easily manipulated as they are being that there's no control over the sample population, are wholly different from any commissioned poll and is not notable enough to report. This is referring to the MSNBC web poll in line 62.
The whole basis for using polls as a tool for analyzing public opinion is that there's some validity to their methodology. If there's no scientific validity, why quote it? It's on the same footing as a letter to the publisher in a major newspaper. It's been opined elsewhere that editorials should not be cited unless the author is a notable source or the writer is giving the opinion of the paper itself (I believe this was in reference to a Barrons editorial on this very talk page). Just because it's published by a reputable source doesn't mean that the publisher lends its authority to the author. Similarly, just because it was a poll on the MSNBC site doesn't overrule the fact that it has no scientific validity, a fact MSNBC is quite clear about.
-- Mmx1 07:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Mmx1 04:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The MSNBC poll does not really stand for the proposition that 160,000 voted to support impeachment - online polls are frequently (and easily) gamed, as partisans with access to multiple IP addresses will cast multiple votes. This should be so noted in the article. bd2412 T 23:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this internet poll ought to be included in this section especially. An internet poll is not a valid measure of public opinion, nor is the sample scientific or representative of the population, as the other polls mentioned in this section are.
Having this poll in the same section as other scientific and representative polls implies validity, of which this internet poll has none.
There is also no way to verify that the 250,000 votes in this poll are unique. It is common practice for internet activists to urge others to vote in these polls numerous times.-- RWR8189 16:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of information about gwb impeachment movements in this blog post from Metafilter. -- Stbalbach 20:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following sections for the listed reasons:
The legal brief makes no mention of a call to impeach GWB.
Edward Lazarus makes no mention of impeachment of GWB.
Jonathan Turley makes no mention of impeachment. A president can be accused of committing "high crimes" without calling for his impeachment.
-- Stbalbach 18:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Turley did mention impeachment in the Salon piece, "Bush's Impeachable Offense". As I've written before, regarding your deletion of the citation of a Barron's piece, if you would spend as much time looking at the original article and inserting the language that specifically mentions impeachment as writing long discussions in order to delete stuff as original research, we might be better get further on improving this article. In the case of the Barron's deletion, you said you didn't have a subscription, but Salon lets anyone view its articles after watching a short ad. Again, I find this frustrating; it makes me want to stop contributing. Here is the quote:
"The fact is, the federal law is perfectly clear," Turley says. "At the heart of this operation was a federal crime. The president has already conceded that he personally ordered that crime and renewed that order at least 30 times. This would clearly satisfy the standard of high crimes and misdemeanors for the purpose of an impeachment."
I will rewrite this to include the term impeachment. I suspect, but don't have time to check, as they were not my contributions, that others you deleted may have actually used the "i-word" too. I do appreciate, however, that you moved the items to discussion, rather than completely deleting as I have seen others do. -- Beth Wellington 00:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 03:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Moved these to NSA warrantless surveillance controversy. - Reaverdrop 02:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the edits by Ian 2k3k
1) A narrative account in a paragraph format is preferable to a "list of", in particular in the lead section of an article. There is no reason to turn it into a list when its allready a well-written paragraph.
2) POV tags have been a very contentious issue on this article. POV tags must have a corosponding talk page reason why it exists so that other editors who disagree can address it, including actionable items for its removal. See previous debates about POV tags on this page.
-- Stbalbach 00:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
As a result of one of the reversions (I can't quite figure out which), the article currently contains the sentence,
"Conyers along with Representative Frank (see below) asked for research into the impeachability of Karl Rove with regard to the disclosure of CIA Operative Valerie Plame's identity to reporters.",
but there is no refferent to the "see below"; that is, there is no subsequent mention of Barney Frank in the article. This inconsistency should be fixed.
Half the statements and sources given for this article completely lack encyclopedic credibility.
I tried to clean up some of it, but this article is in desperate need of attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RWR8189 ( talk • contribs) .
Wikipedia doesnt have a policy about "encyclopedic credibility". It has policies on Verifiable Sources (original research) and NPOV. -- Stbalbach 14:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
If there needs to be a discussion (instead of just editing the article), then do so on the discussion page, that is what discussion pages are for, there is no reason to add a tag which deprecates the validity of the article, in particular on such a controversial topic. Please provide point point examples and actionable items that are "inappropriate tone", or just edit the article directly. -- Stbalbach 14:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I find that the irreverent tone used in this article towards the terrible twin tower attack on 9/11 is plainly demonstrated by 9/11 being placed in quotation marks in the "Reasons" section of the current version of this article. Please try to be a bit more neutral, thanks.
Who is Winters? I have tried to make legitimate amendments to this page. FOr example: to note that "some people consider impeachment to be partisan extremism." This has been immediately edited out and I received "vandalism" warnings. Whoever does that is ruining the who purpose of Wikipedia: it is NOT a forum for your stupid political views - its a objective. This won't be accepted.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.173.8.75 ( talk • contribs) .
No,your argument is worthless. My changes were no less specific than "actions by individuals and groups" and "a social movement which indicates a degree of supoort." LEAVE YOUR IDIOT POLITICS OUT.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.173.8.75 ( talk • contribs) .
This is a sourced information about the impeachment trial by experts and there is no reason to randomly delete it from the page. Dr Debug 06:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Robert Zaller is a professor of the Department of History & Politics and has written several books about history. He may not be notable for his own page, but he is notable enough for his opinions.
It seems that the link to the original story is no longer online, but the democratic convention can also be sourced on truthout [19], it is on wikinews [20] and Indymedia [21] and they all refer back to the Capitol Times which reported the news. Dr Debug 06:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
In this Boston Globe article [22], Kerry claims his comment was made in jest. This means that his comment cannot be construed as an endorsement of impeachment, as the header suggests. RWR8189 10:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Unless any of these comments were made on the floor of the senate or house chamber I contend that none of them are actual endorsments.-- mitrebox 03:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
An has asserted that Specter "also raised doubts as to the constitutionality of the FISA statue saying 'If a statute is inconsistent with the Constitution, the Constitution governs and the constitutional powers predominate'." [23]. First of all, this is Original Research because a Wikipedia edior is making an analysis of a quotation that does not exits in the source he/she is citing. The source only provides the transcript of the hearing, with no such analysis. Furthermore, the very next line, which was omitted from the quotation inserted into the edit, makes clear that Specter was in fact reaffirming his view that the Statute was constitutional, by saying: "But here you have the President signing on and saying this is it, and that’s why I’ve been so skeptical of the program because it is in flat violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, but that’s not the end of the discussion." This is why I reverted that addition. -- AladdinSE 07:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct, he makes no determination, nor does the source say he "raises doubts." We cannot editorialize. You once again do not want to include the line that follows:"But here you have the President signing on and saying this is it". he was playing devil's advocate and then rebutting that argument, and reaffirming that the statue was constitutional. The fact that we disagree about the interpretation of his comments is a clear reason to disallow your editorializing comment that he was "raising doubts as to the constitutionality of the FISA statue" because no analyst in the source you used to cite this makes that postulation.
As for "warrantless surveillance program" vs "terrorist surveillance program", my source for that was not MSNBC, it was The New York Times. The first paragraph of that article states: "The Republican who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee said today that he believed the Bush administration had violated the law with its warrantless surveillance program and that its legal justifications for the program were "strained and unrealistic." When you made your edit, you displaced my citation and made it look like my NY times article was only supporting the line about when hearings were scheduled to begin, and that the MSNBC link which you inserted was supporting my edit about "warrantless surveillance program". I will return it where I originally placed it. -- AladdinSE 09:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not confusing constitutionality with law breaking. I am just refraining from OR and from entering competing interpretations of the meaning of Specter's words. Certainly you can include some mention of the question of the constitutionality of FISA, but not by editorializing on what Specter said, but by quoting an outside source that gives the interpretation you favor. An no, we cannot insert the wording you propose about said constitutionality, until it is supported by a credible source that is making that interpretation. Otherwise we would be inserting our interpretation. I do agree that the debate regarding the constitutionality of FISA is important now and stands to increase in importance if the controversy escalates. We needn't get hung up on Specter's interview with Russert to include it. I'm certain there are many other sources that clearly articulate these conjectures. As for your contention that my source is incorrect, well by all means produce another one contradicting the New York Times and we can list both interpretations side by side. Of course the Times editorializes, that is what newspapers do. That is just another word for interpretation. Wikipedia is full of such citations. Finally, you cannot "replace" the Times source which puts forward an analysis with the MSNBC interview with only quotes and analyzes nothing. I'm not saying don't include the MSNBC interview, use it by all means to report any quotation (not analysis) you wish. --
AladdinSE 12:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Specter article makes no mention of impeachment. This Wikipedia article is specifically about impeachment, not anyone who has a gripe with the President. Has Spector said he is calling for impeachment because of the wiretap? If so, lets see it. Otherwise, dont include it here, it's just opinion to associate Spector's comment with impeachment. -- Stbalbach 15:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I started this section to talk about the revert of my edit regarding an update about what Specter on Feb 5. The impeachment edit was not mine and was dated Jan 15. Nevertheless, I examined it, and it is perfectly viable. It does not say Specter called for impeachment. It says Specter "mentioned impeachment and criminal prosecution as potential remedies if President Bush broke the law." He did mention impeachment, as the sources will show. The Washington Post article link the original editor used is now dead, I will replace it with a couple of current links.-- AladdinSE 00:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
It would make sense to me to have the "Reasons" section of this article lower on the page. The article is about "actions by individuals and groups" and public opinion polls, so I think the writing about the actions themselves and the polls should come first. I suspect "Reasons" would fit better after "Public opinion", unless the "Endorsements" section is also intended as a description of a movement as opposed to endorsements of a movement. Any comments on this? -- Brian Brondel 14:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this paragraph, removed to here:
The source link is to a press article that says it had pre-release access to the poll. Is there a reason we cant link directly to the poll results? This poll needs to be verified and the methodology and other details examined. -- Stbalbach 16:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The openening paragraph has long been a source NPOV problems (people adding NPOV tags to the aricle), and the current version is one that most people have been able to live with for a while. The problem with your version is it can be seen as NPOV. It suggests that there is an actual movement. That is why we had the "for the purposes of this article" phrase to be a little more ambiguous to appease both sides. Second "a movement to impeach" suggests there is a singular movement. This is not accurate either, there are movements or a singular movement, again, this is not so well defined nor should it be. Third it says "In American politics", which suggests that outside of American politics there is somthing else, that this is a "political term" - again, not accurate, it is simply a term of convience "for the purposes of this article". I would encourage you to read previous talk page discussions and the many POVs on this issue and the problems associated with the phrase. -- Stbalbach 17:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The ABA article makes no mention of impeachment, and the ABA makes no endorsement of impeachment. This article is called "Movement to impeach" and it documents people/organizations who call for or endorse the impeachment of GWB. Including the ABA article here with no attribution to anyone else implicitly suggests that the ABA is calling for Bush's impeachment which is original research. Note, the sections of this articles are not divided by the issues, but by the people and organizations who discuss the issues. There is already another article that reports on the details of the wireless issue. -- Stbalbach 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing random about the inclusion of the ABA's comments here. Their comments in this article does not by any stretch of the imagination mean they are endorsing any action which the edit itself does not say they are endorsing. They are making a basic constitutional evaluation on executive authority that is a cornerstone of the impeachment movement. People and organizations have made allegations that Bush's actions as far as the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy constitute cause for impeachment because the program was unconstitutional. Here is the ABA giving its considered official opinion that it was in fact unconstitutional. The material does not portend to endorse anything the ABA does not explicitly state. No "attribution" in the manner your describe is required because no claim of "impeachment endorsement" and the like is made. You cannot disallow relevant and sourced legal analysis on such grounds. -- AladdinSE 01:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad we've arrived at the agreement that the ABA material is relevant to the article. I wish to state for the record that I entirely overlooked the fact that subsection Legal experts and scholars was located under the section Endorsements of impeachment. That was my mistake. If that had been noted from the start I would have immediately agreed to its being moved. However, initially the argument was that the material was entirely irrelevant. The transfer to Reasons seems correct to me. -- AladdinSE 21:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
"Movement to impeach..." is an absurdly biased title on its face. There are also many other problems with this. Merecat 08:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see anything wrong with "Movement to impeach". Could you be more specific? How else do you suggest we title this article? Activism to get Bush out of office? trust me, this is the best title. -- Revolución ( talk) 23:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no "movement" except in the most POV fringes of the partisan mind. If "movement" is in the title, the word "partisan" must be added. Other than that, substituting "calls" in the title, would satisfy my concerns there. Merecat 04:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I strongly question the validity of this article or any article of this type. If the impeachment of GWB became a real event, like the real impeachment of Clinton did, then this would be a historical article. Of course impeachment just means bringing charges against which ends up in a trial, not particularly a conviction. However, just because there is a wish list of events that just aren't happening is not cause for a similar list of articles. Clinton's impeachment is but a mere footnote in the article on impeachment and is completely glossed over in the article on Bill Clinton referring only to a few sex scandals.
I'm dreaming of a white Christmas, but there is no article on it, and I am not about to write one.
Magi Media 04:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)Magi Media
To me the factual basis of this ongoing debate / discussion is as much sociological as it is politial or legal. Much thought and effort is going into a well-thought-out list of reasons to not lose hope for the best-case-scenario of: '2006 Dems take back the House amd Senate and impeach Bush and Cheney putting Pelosi in the White House, disgracing Bush forever'. If the same people who spend so much time with this issue, on this forum and elsewhere, would use their energy to elect Democrats, their goals may be met. Even if the Dems take the House in 2006 and 60 seats in the Senate, an impeachment would be politically untennable. Impeachment will always be 95% poilitcs and 5% law so all the lists and petitions and endorsements mean nothing unless they are senators and congressmen. It is the amount of work put into this article that is the most interesting fact to me. (and here I am writing about it :))
The result of the debate was no consensus. — Nightst a llion (?) 21:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate at this point to have a vote on the name change issue.
Movement to impeach George W. Bush → Calls to impeach George W. Bush – "Calls" is more neutral, better supported by external references, and matches the corresponding section in George W. Bush.
-- http://www.carlsheeler.com/articles_impeachment_GA.asp
-- James S. 21:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Chris S.
I contend this is a more appropriate illustration for this article. -- James S. 08:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The fair use rational is almost not-existent. Are we sure this is fair use? Proposed for deletion, see links in image above. -- Stbalbach 15:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi. This is your local intellectual property lawyer chiming in. It certainly doesn't have to be an article about "Harpers Magazine" for the cover to be fair use - see Melinda Gates (cover of Time Magazine); Ally McBeal (cover of Time Magazine); Britney Spears (cover of ELLE). The factors examined for fair use are that the use be critical or educational (this is educational, as is all of Wikipedia); that the use not be for profit (ditto); that no more of the original is taken than is needed to make the point (small, low-res image of a magazine cover); and that the market value of the original not be diminished (no one is going to decide not to buy this issue of Harpers just because we post the image here - in fact, it would more likely boost Harpers sales). On an editorial note, publication of this sentiment on a major magazine cover is probative of the existance of a "movement", and illustrative of the sentiment being expressed. Certainly a better lead than the previous pic. bd2412 T 16:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the anon editors changes to the lead section. The lead section follows the rules of Wikipedia:Lead section which is a summary of the article body contents. If the anon editor (who left a private message on my talk page) thinks it is "POV", then anon editor should edit the body of the article first, because that is what the article says. Second, the "As of March" statement suggests that thing's are fluid and may change on a monthly basis. ie. if the anon editor had said instead "As of Sunday".. than things will change on a daily basis.. if anon editor had said "As of 12pm" then things are changing hourly. So please, there is no reason to say "As of X time" it is leading and suggestive that things will in fact change. The picture caption is relevant to the context of the article, and is factual and NPOV. Finally there is no need to use the word "various". And that statement about the history of the movement, move it to the body of the article it doesn't belong in the lead, and make sure you source it because it looks like original research. -- Stbalbach 16:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
If you cannot comprehend why I keep deleting your fallacious appeal to authority, then I guess you will never understand what the problem here is. 192.168.204.130 02:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
You've addressed none of the points above. The intro doesn't appeal to authority. Please provide a detailed example and explanation of "appeal to authority". -- Stbalbach 03:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Have you read Wikipedia:Lead section? The lead section is supposed to be a summary of the article content. If you have a problem with listing those names, then you should address the problem in the article, and remove the names from the article body. The lead section is simply a summary reflection of the article. If you dont like those names, pick some others, but a few of the key people need to be represented in the article summary.
Regarding this:
This doesn't belong in the article, it implies that "anti-Bush critics" (a double negative BTW), are trying to impeach Bush not based on factual policy grounds, but based on whatever the current/latest complaint is, which happens to be the Iraq War at the moment. This is highly POV language. Plus, there is no discussion of this at all in the article body, why is it in the lead section?
Regarding this:
They are not "justifications", they are reasons. In fact our very article has a section called "Reasons". Justifications is a POV term. The lead section reflects the article contents and the article says "reasons" throughout.
Regarding this:
This is fine except for the "As of March 2006" statment. There is no reason for that. It implies that things will change in the future. This is POV. Is there some reason you are unable to say straight forward with no qualifiers that the HoR has taken no action toward impeachment?
Regarding this:
This has been discussed to death numerous times in the above talk page(s), please review. There was even a vote the change the article name from "movement" to "calls" but it never achieved consensus. That's the real source of pov concerns, the title of the article, as it "could" suggest a large unified effort -- but then again, the lead section says clearly what is meant by movement in the first sentence, so your interpretation is taken out of context and not an accurate portrayal. -- Stbalbach 17:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 06:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've answered you enough - now all you do is attack me personally "your edits are clearly not being made in good faith"; whereas I only commented on your fact set "totatly wrong". Suffice it to say, I am not going to fight with you. If you edit unacceptably to me, I will either revert or modify. If not, I won't. I've talked here in good faith and you answer with insults. Come what may, I will not repond to you again - unless and until you apologize. 192.168.204.130 06:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
You really don't get it, do you? What does editing from a pool of rotating IP's, without logging in result in? An edit log pattern just like mine has been tonight. The fact that I keep answering your off-base accusations is self-evident proof that I am not a sock, but rahter, am merely not logging in. If you accuse me even one more time of being a sock, I will not speak with you any more, and then you'll have to guess. 66.98.130.204 07:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Pages 314-315 of the House Rules for the 109th Congress state:
Now can we have a discussion of each of Rhode Island's proposed articles? -- James S. 03:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Uh, we can't just go listing points that we think are reasons and we can't cite other wiki pages as sources. We need outside sources. Else we are committing original research which is a big no-no. 70.84.56.172 09:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Innocence must be presumed until the president has been convicted of any wrongdoing.-- RWR8189 10:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict
As for the final two paragraphs in "Reasons" they have no place in this article. First, the DCCC or DSCC makes no endorsement of impeachment. Inferring things from their usage of terms is original research and has no place here. Second, the ABA makes no endorsement of impeachment, this article is not the place to discuss exclusively the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy-- RWR8189 10:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The ABA article [39]:
and
and
and
and
The ABA is evidently discussing the inconsistencies in the argumentation put forward by the Bush administration. They show that several points are possibly violating US law. Which brings us back to "high crimes ..." Nomen Nescio 21:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph: Many activists charge that Bush committed obstruction of Congress, a felony under 18 U.S.C. 1001, by withholding information and by supplying information Bush should have known to be incorrect in his States of the Union speeches. This law is comparable to perjury, but it does not require that the statements be made under oath. Martha Stewart recently went to prison for violating this law by making false statements to investigators. Caspar Weinberger was indicted under this law in relation to his involvement in the Iran-Contra affair, but he escaped prosecution by being pardoned by Bush's father.
is original research and contains no citations, it does not belong in the article as of now, not to mention a large level of POV inherent in the writing.-- RWR8189 10:34, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Something needs to be made clear: when a lawyers says that something is against the law - well, usually he says it in court, in which case his statement is deliberately leading to prosecution. That is the role of a lawyer. When he makes statements within this role (that is, as a lawyer), his statements have that inherent import. A lawyer does not say someone is a criminal, they say that the person has commited a crime. And a lawyer never says "this person has commited a crime." That is an arbitrary assertion, and holds no water. They say what the law is, what the persons actions are, and how the two relate. By this act, they prosecute or defend. And that is what the ABA is doing as the ABA. Kevin Baas talk 02:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I am wondering why this article regarding the impeachment movement does not include more discussion of 9/11 under "reasons"? A few things to look into and consider: (1) Many New Yorkers (as shown in polls) and others (including MN Senator Mark Dayton) were very dissatisfied with the offical 9/11 commission report, and claimed that it seemed to be "doctored"; (2) Bush claimed that his initial reaction to seeing the hole(s) in the WTC tower(s) was something to the effect of, "Now there's a lousy pilot" - and yet we learned later that as early as August 6, 2001, he had received warnings, in the form of PDB's (Presidential Daily Briefs, or intelligence briefs) claiming that there was soon to be a terrorist attack involving hijackings. The "lousy pilot" remark seemed calculated, in order to cover up forknowledge. (3) The Mindy Klineberg (sp?) testimony to the commission was particularly damning, as was the memo from former FBI lawyer Coleen Rowley. (4) Surveilance video from the roof of the convenience store near the Pentagon was confiscated in the name of national security, and never released, although it might have cleared up the question of whether a plane or a missile struck the Pentagon. (5) To many people who have followed the story, the only wild conspiracy theory seems to be that the terrorists acted alone, without inside help from the Bush administration. (6) Theologian and professor emeritus of Claremont College, David Ray Griffin, has written and lectured about the contradictions and holes in the official report, as well as about evidence that the WTC towers and a third WTC building collapsed because of controlled demolition; the evidence includes both recently released oral history from New Yorkers and firefighters who were leaving the WTC before it collapsed, and the evidence of the videos of the collapse. (6) For Bush to have known but to have allowed 9/11 to unfold seems to be a possibility; knowing and aiding the terrorists seems to be another; both would be impeachable offenses. // - This topic seems to need links to articles on so-called 9-11 conspiracy theories, as much as I know that is a derogatory term, and as much as I'm also aware of psy-ops concepts such as "poisoning the well" - when false conspiracy theories are circulated to discredit true ones, etc. 14:00 17 March 2006 —This unsigned comment was added by 71.214.132.101 ( talk • contribs) .
In an article like this I would think making numerous and extensive changes without discussing them could be misunderstood. Please make smaller rewrites and discuss here in the future. Nomen Nescio 10:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Even after I provided sources some editors insist there are no sources. Please read this page and discuss your problems. Redacting out information on the basis of incorrect assertions does not constitute a good faith edit! Nomen Nescio 20:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This should go in somewhere: Vermont towns want Bush impeached - five Vermont towns have passed resolutions (at least one in a town hall meeting) directing Bernie Sanders to introduce articles of impeachment against Bush. Sanders says it's impractical at this time. bd2412 T 15:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The title of "Movement to impeach George W. Bush" is original research in and of itself. There is no "movement" being referred to by that word in the press or anywhere by any reliable source. The page ought to be renamed to "Partisan calls to impeach President Bush". 70.85.195.225 17:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This morning this article looked quite different. I changed the major deletions, although there were comments they were incorrect! Example, the reasons sections got crippled because there were no sources, looking higher up this page you will notice I supplied ample sources for that section. That clearly constitutes an incorrect edit comment. You ask of me to go back and restore all these unwarranted edits? That is ridiculuous.
Furthermore the numerous and elaborate edits since this morning were never discussed. Why do I need to discuss something I discussed intensively this morning? Please read this page! Nomen Nescio 20:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Avoid self-references says to avoid self references. The lead-in to this article currently contains the phrase "for the purpose of this article". From reading this talk page, I gather that this is because some people think that the title of the article is not in common use outside of Wikipedia. I understand that moving the page was suggested, but did not recieve consensus. Never-the-less, failure to reach consensus on a title change does not give us the right to violate Wikipedia:Avoid self-references. The self-referential phrase adds nothing, and conflicts with the proper tone for an encyclopedia. Whether or not the article is moved makes no difference, that self-referential phrase must be removed. Johntex\ talk 21:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Please stop re-inserting "reasons" without explicit citations to external sources which make clear that EACH "reason" mentioned is being advanced by a NOTABLE, VALID SOURCE as a "reason" for impeachment. If you fail to do this, then we are commiting original research in making that list. The correct place to list wiki articles like Plame and Yellowcake is in the See also section, NOT the "reasons" section. For the purposes of the narrative of our article here, wiki links to wiki pages are NOT acceptable primary sources. We must have a link to external, not internal sources or these "reasons" cannot rightly be listed as such. Please keep uncited wiki link "reasons" in the See also section only. 192.168.232.76 07:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Each and every specific allegation listed under "reasons/rationales" - this includes sub-section titles, MUST be backed up by specific links to external notable sources which specifically call for impeachment FOR THAT PARTICULAR REASON. Any allegation which is not backed up this way is original research and is NOT acceptable. 67.15.76.188 10:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
It is getting rather bulky so I started a new page for the reasons. It can be found here. Nomen Nescio 14:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I've semi-protected this article to try to get the edit war to cool off William M. Connolley 20:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Splash, how much longer do you plan to keep the full protection on? There is no discussion happening here, because there is nothing to discuss. The anon sock puppet user violated 3RR, it's really that simple. -- Stbalbach 16:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Stbalbach and User:AdamJacobMuller are reverting in close cooperation. I suspect them of sockpuppetry. Please see revert history for this article for proof. [54] 192.168.204.130 20:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.98.130.204 ( talk • contribs)
Stop with the accusations and read the full edit history with all the edit summaries. Many good edits have been made here by anons recently. It's AdamJacobMuller who made trouble, not any of the anons. Adam has been reported for 7RR violation [55]. 70.85.195.225 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The "current" tag is used when the information in an article is "changing rapidly" - it is used in events where the fundamentals of the story are changing hourly, like in hurricanes, as a warning to readers that they need to check back often, or that the basic facts may as of yet be incomplete. It is not used in articles about an ongoing issue that is already ongoing for 5 years and is fundamentally up to date, the article is about the same as it was 1 month ago. Will it keep changing? Of course. Lots of articles keep changing. Will the article change daily? No. Is it a current event? Of course lots of articles are "current events". The tag is not needed and is inappropriate to the rates and types of changes happening with this article. -- Stbalbach 15:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
http://news.google.com/news?q=impeach%20Bush&sourceid=mozilla-search&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&sa=N&tab=wn and http://www.google.com/search?q=impeach+Bush&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 demonstate that as a matter of fact it is an article that referrs to something in the news about which news is being made daily. As far as recent edits go, the tag "As a result of recent vandalism, editing of this page by new or unregistered users is temporarily disabled." indicates many would be edits aren't being made because it is protected. By your standard, any protected page is automaticly not current. This movement is gathering steam and judging it based on edit volumes a month ago is not relevant. "Types of changes" includes reverts, so any article that someone is constantly reverting would also automaticly not qualify for "current". (Whether that's the case here or not, I haven't checked. I just yesterday saw a TV program on it and looked it up here in Wikipedia. It's current to me.) WAS 4.250 15:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I just somewhere saw these 2 pages:
What is the difference between the two? Is there one or is it just a double? -- Jared [T]/ [+] 20:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It looks/sounds like the second page may have been made to substitute for this one. Mhking 22:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This phrase is just plain wrong:
The word "proscribed" is obviously incorrect and should be deleted. Also, it's not only elected officials that may be impeached but "all civil Officers of the United States." – Shoaler ( talk) 12:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.
I got it this time. Kevin Baas talk 21:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The relevancy of the content:
has been disputed.
The waxman letter includes the paragraph:
The Presentment Clause of the U.S. Constitution states that before a bill can become law, it must be passed by both Houses of Congress.[3] When the President took the oath of office, he swore to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States," which includes the Presentment Clause. If the President signed the Reconciliation Act knowing its constitutional infirmity, he would in effect be placing himself above the Constitution.
which raises the question as to whether the president has commited an impeachable offense. Kevin Baas talk 02:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The event has also been discussed at Talk:George_W._Bush#Bush_signs_bill_into_law_that_wasn.27t_passed_by_Congress, for whoever's interested. Kevin Baas talk 22:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Several editors and I have removed the website [59] Another editor continues to add it back. This website adds no value to this article, and is only a store, and maybe a blog. None the less, we are writing an encylopedia here, and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of links-- Adam ( talk) 03:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Savage is playing a significant role in the social movement to impeach a sitting U.S. president. If Wikipedia is to accurately represent the subject for posterity, his site should be part of that entry. The effort is distinguishable in that he is a nationally syndicated columnist attempting to rally support over a period of time, not a hack writing a single op-ed piece.
If Rosa Parks had run a blog against racism & segregation, would you have removed the link? - 20-June-2006
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The public opinion section was changed to be chronological. I believe the most important points should go at the top. Reverse chronological would be better, though being recent does not necessarily make a point important.-- RichardMathews 22:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I've read the arguments above, and have removed the NPOV tag. The main argument seemed to be over the article's existence, not over the content. That argument was settled by the AfD. Any other issues can be fixed. Rich Farmbrough. 21:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear anonymous user. Please discuss your reasons here and work toward improvements rather than tagging the article yet again and thus devaluing the considerable work of others on a controversial article.-- 164.106.227.118 21:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Oops, the computer logged me out, making me anonymous, too!-- Beth Wellington 21:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Although many factual assertions of this article are true (I assume), the synthesis of these facts into a "movement to impeach..." appears to be original research (which is prohibited - see WP:NOR). No sources are cited for the central claims of the article. Mirror Vax 23:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Mirror Vax, it's really not clear at all what the problem is. You say you want a citation from an authoritative source. Can you please provide a hypothetical example of what that would look like? I mean, one only has to do a google search of "impeach bush" and you will find thousands of hits that support that there are movements to impeach bush. So, im really not sure why you dis-believe that they exist, that you require a citation. It is beyond reason. Its like requiring a citation that mount everest exists. This is a waste of everyones time. -- Stbalbach 19:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Merrian-Webster: 2a : TENDENCY, TREND <detected a movement toward fairer pricing> b : a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end <the civil rights movement>
Dictionary.com: 3a. A series of actions and events taking place over a period of time and working to foster a principle or policy: a movement toward world peace. 3b. An organized effort by supporters of a common goal: a leader of the labor movement.
Also social movement on Dictionary.com: n : a group of people with a common ideology who try together to achieve certain general goals; "he was a charter member of the movement"; "politicians have to respect a mass movement"; "he led the national liberation front" [syn: movement, front]
People calling for impeachment does not necessarily make a "movement", but when a substantial number of people and groups of people work together vigorously to achieve a common purpose, that is a movement, by definition. Kevin baas 19:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The lead paragraph defining the movement is very awkwardly worded and completely unsupported. It currently reads:
I see no evidence in the real world of the latter definition. A web search finds it used exclusively to refer to an effort by particular organizations to lobby Congress and solicit public opinion in favor of impeachment. I did a google search for the phrases "movement to impeach" and "bush" (736 hits) and for the phrases "impeachment movement" and "bush" (929 hits). The top hits (other than Wikipedia and a news article about this Wikipedia article) were:
Can we agree on a definition that better matches these real-world examples of using the phrase?-- RichardMathews 16:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
No, it is not. At best, polls indicate that someone holds a certain view, not that they're part of a movement. As I've already mentioned before, you can find the most ridiculous polls online, because they're so easy for people to create and sign. The "stop ashlee simpson from singing" poll has over 300,000 signatures so far. Does that mean there's a movement to stop Ashlee Simpson from Singing? Hardly, I doubt there's anyone who really took it all that seriously, since it's just an internet poll which is effortless to sign.
impeachbush.org and votetoimpeach.org exist exclusively as websites and their only support is in the form of a worthless internet poll. They have only managed to double the Ashlee Simpson poll in number of votes. Given that this is supposedly a significant movement, one that is serious, I would expect it to have an order of magnitude more votes. disinfo.com, informationclearinghouse.info, irregular times and so forth are unknown websits that just happen to have articles on people working for impeachment--they are not part of the movement. The impeachbushcoalition is just a blog, not an organization and all they do is post articles. impeachcentral.com has an alexa rank of 5 million.
Please make a list of just websites that directly represent a significant movement (insigificant websites don't count). Make sure each one in the new list represents a significant movement, because I'm not going to go through them all, I'm just going to test one at random and if I find it doesn't qualify, then that only says to me that you can't construct such a list. Remember, they must be working to advance the cause, not simply believe that he should be impeached.
Definitions from the Compact OED which are relevent here: 3 a group of people working to advance a shared cause. 4 a series of organized actions to advance a shared cause. ~ Compact OED
Individuals are therefore not a movement. It needs to be a group of people.
Nathan J. Yoder 11:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there are groups working towards a shared cause for everything imaginable, but it doesn't mean we should have wikipedia articles on every fringe minority movement. You say my argument is weak, but you don't bother actually addressing it. The burden of proof is on you, demonstrate that there is some significant movement. If the best you've got is some internet polls, then you're out of luck. Nathan J. Yoder 07:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The KKK used to be big and it has a lot of historical relevence, that's why it has an article. As this isn't part of history yet, since he's still in office, you can't argue historically nor that it is big. You didn't read what I said. That 1/3rd of people aren't all part of aren't part of a movement. You shouldn't be editing the article if you can't distinguish between support for an idea and being part of a movement for that idea. I mean, I like strawberry ice cream, does that mean I'm part of a pro-strawberry ice cream movement?
Your criteria for burden of proof is silly. I'm asking the people who support the article to back up the most basic assumption of it--that there is a significant movement. Otherwise anyone can create an article for any reason and require that the burden of proof be on the people who don't want it to support its most basic premise. I'll just go create a "Movement to support strawberry ice cream" article and require that everyone else prove that there isn't one. I'm not "holding the article hostage," I'm just putting an NPOV tag on it. If you call putting an NPOV tag on an article, "holding it hostage," then I don't know what to say.
And I have never used ad hominem, that is a nice try though. You, on the other hand, supported someone who removed the fact from the article that there were no impeachment proceedings and supported them to insert a personally speculative statement (forbidden by WP:NOT) implying there would be impeachment proceedings. That reeks of bias. Nathan J. Yoder 17:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Then why did you accuse me of using ad hominem abusive? Ad hominem abusive is, by definition, a personal attack. It seems now you're retracting that statement. You didn't just cite ad hominem as an example, you said "liberal use of ad hominem abusive." So I'm to believe you were referring to some hypothetical person there? I have not ever used logical fallacies, but feel free to point them out. You explicitly supported this edit by Sterling Newberry which was not only POV, but implied there were would be an impeachment proceeding. You also defended Sterling Newberry as not in any way inserting POV into the article, even though he was the one who removed the statement (at least 2 times) saying that there weren't any impeachment proceedings.
And your argument is weak, since you haven't bothered supporting it. You say that there are a significant number of people who are part of a movement, but your only evidence is the number of people who simply agree with impeachment. Mind you, the same number Clinton had. Did Clinton have a significant impeachment movement against him? Following your logic, yes he did. I'm sorry, but a lack of evidence doesn't make something clear to me. If you're going to m ake a point that there are also a significant number that are part of a movement, you better support it with something. Nathan J. Yoder 19:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Nothing in the article supports this being a significant movement and your refusal to provide evidence that there is a significant movement is an implicit concession that there wasn't one. Just admit it when you're wrong. And you have your facts wrong. The impeachment hearings were from November 9th-December 12th. There were polls on it in August, September and October. All before the impeachment hearings were even started. It's not actually a logical fallacy to get a fact wrong, but if it were, you'd be doing it right now since you clearly got your facts mixed up and apparently didn't even check when the hearings started. Getting a fact wrong wouldn't be a false analogy by any measure, I'm not sure how you came up with that one. Nice try though. Also, you meant 'retroactively.' Nathan J. Yoder 13:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
There are many mainstream media publications that have called for the impeachment of Bush in the last few months. Sukiari 04:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I suppose this will of some use to somebody editing this article: Spying, the Constitution — and the ‘I-word’ - 2006 will offer up Nixon-era nastiness and a chorus of calls to impeach Bush. bd2412 T 23:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
This is not a vote or poll, but it seems like the article would be less controversial and more accurate if it was called Movements to impeach George W. Bush (plural movements) .. since the article makes clear there is more than one movement, and more than one definition of the term movement applies. Thoughts? -- Stbalbach 02:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I have no problem with this.-- Beth Wellington 07:14, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The common meaning of the word "Movement" in the sense emploted in the title is multiple people/groups working together towards a single end. Pluralization in that sense would be redundant. Kevin baas 22:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
That would be an improvement. While "movement" can be used in a sense described by Kevin (3a in Houghton-Mifflin), that usage is rather uncommon. Certainly the immediate interpretation is as in "An organized effort by supporters of a common goal" (3b in Houghton-Mifflin) Can I propose the name "Calls to impeach George W. Bush"? -- Brian Brondel 22:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure media editorials are encylopedic or notable. Who is THOMAS G. DONLAN from Barrons and why should we care what he has to say, is he really that notable that his personal opinions are to be included in an Encyclopedia? -- Stbalbach 03:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Moved the section here for discussion:
Editorials by business magazines seem more notable as a subsection for opionion than that of entertainers. In an editorial, Donlan speaks for Barrons. Barrons, not Dolan is notable.
Media Editorials
"It is important to be clear that an impeachment case, if it comes to that, would not be about wiretapping, or about a possible Constitutional right not to be wiretapped. It would be about the power of Congress to set wiretapping rules by law, and it is about the obligation of the president to follow the rules in the Acts that he and his predecessors signed into law." [1]
There is material in the article that implies it is related to impeachment, but the sources themselves make no mention of impeachment. This is original research. I'll go ahead and remove them, and list them here and the reasons why it was removed:
Considered the first step to impeachment by whom? Isnt it possible this is simply a Resolution of Inquiry without a hidden agenda? It's original research to draw a connection to impeachment with this H.Res
This article is about the impeachment of GWB, not Karl Rove. In any case, this is simply a question and not a statement: is Rove impeachable? We dont know.
So, if Bush supporters chant "Nuke Iran" at a rally, does that mean Bush himself supports the nukeing of Iran? This does not belong under the Congressional activities section. Moved to the "Public demonstrations" section.
Tieing this activity with a movement to impeach bush is original research. Unless Nadler has said otherwise.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
No mention of impeachment.
-- Stbalbach 17:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC
You state, "the sources themselves make no mention of impeachment"
You are incorrect. Did you read the sources or only the parts cited? If needed, I will remedy it by quoting the part about impeachment, rather than just linking to it.
"Willful disregard of a law is potentially an impeachable offense. It is at least as impeachable as having a sexual escapade under the Oval Office desk and lying about it later. The members of the House Judiciary Committee who staged the impeachment of President Clinton ought to be as outraged at this situation. They ought to investigate it, consider it carefully and report either a bill that would change the wiretap laws to suit the president or a bill of impeachment."
"It is important to be clear that an impeachment case, if it comes to that, would not be about wiretapping, or about a possible Constitutional right not to be wiretapped. It would be about the power of Congress to set wiretapping rules by law, and it is about the obligation of the president to follow the rules in the Acts that he and his predecessors signed into law."
I believe I had part of the second paragraph in there the last time you axed this source on other grounds.
No mention of impeachment. The title was "Talking about impeachment"
The lead paragraph was
"The dwindling circle of right-wing defenders of the Bush-Cheney presidency would have Americans believe that only the most reckless partisans would even consider the prospect of censuring or perhaps even impeaching the president and vice president. But the prospect of officially sanctioning Bush and Cheney, as has now been proposed by U.S. Rep. John Conyers, the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, is gaining ground in unexpected quarters."
I posit that web polls, as easily manipulated as they are being that there's no control over the sample population, are wholly different from any commissioned poll and is not notable enough to report. This is referring to the MSNBC web poll in line 62.
The whole basis for using polls as a tool for analyzing public opinion is that there's some validity to their methodology. If there's no scientific validity, why quote it? It's on the same footing as a letter to the publisher in a major newspaper. It's been opined elsewhere that editorials should not be cited unless the author is a notable source or the writer is giving the opinion of the paper itself (I believe this was in reference to a Barrons editorial on this very talk page). Just because it's published by a reputable source doesn't mean that the publisher lends its authority to the author. Similarly, just because it was a poll on the MSNBC site doesn't overrule the fact that it has no scientific validity, a fact MSNBC is quite clear about.
-- Mmx1 07:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Mmx1 04:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The MSNBC poll does not really stand for the proposition that 160,000 voted to support impeachment - online polls are frequently (and easily) gamed, as partisans with access to multiple IP addresses will cast multiple votes. This should be so noted in the article. bd2412 T 23:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this internet poll ought to be included in this section especially. An internet poll is not a valid measure of public opinion, nor is the sample scientific or representative of the population, as the other polls mentioned in this section are.
Having this poll in the same section as other scientific and representative polls implies validity, of which this internet poll has none.
There is also no way to verify that the 250,000 votes in this poll are unique. It is common practice for internet activists to urge others to vote in these polls numerous times.-- RWR8189 16:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of information about gwb impeachment movements in this blog post from Metafilter. -- Stbalbach 20:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following sections for the listed reasons:
The legal brief makes no mention of a call to impeach GWB.
Edward Lazarus makes no mention of impeachment of GWB.
Jonathan Turley makes no mention of impeachment. A president can be accused of committing "high crimes" without calling for his impeachment.
-- Stbalbach 18:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Turley did mention impeachment in the Salon piece, "Bush's Impeachable Offense". As I've written before, regarding your deletion of the citation of a Barron's piece, if you would spend as much time looking at the original article and inserting the language that specifically mentions impeachment as writing long discussions in order to delete stuff as original research, we might be better get further on improving this article. In the case of the Barron's deletion, you said you didn't have a subscription, but Salon lets anyone view its articles after watching a short ad. Again, I find this frustrating; it makes me want to stop contributing. Here is the quote:
"The fact is, the federal law is perfectly clear," Turley says. "At the heart of this operation was a federal crime. The president has already conceded that he personally ordered that crime and renewed that order at least 30 times. This would clearly satisfy the standard of high crimes and misdemeanors for the purpose of an impeachment."
I will rewrite this to include the term impeachment. I suspect, but don't have time to check, as they were not my contributions, that others you deleted may have actually used the "i-word" too. I do appreciate, however, that you moved the items to discussion, rather than completely deleting as I have seen others do. -- Beth Wellington 00:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 03:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Moved these to NSA warrantless surveillance controversy. - Reaverdrop 02:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the edits by Ian 2k3k
1) A narrative account in a paragraph format is preferable to a "list of", in particular in the lead section of an article. There is no reason to turn it into a list when its allready a well-written paragraph.
2) POV tags have been a very contentious issue on this article. POV tags must have a corosponding talk page reason why it exists so that other editors who disagree can address it, including actionable items for its removal. See previous debates about POV tags on this page.
-- Stbalbach 00:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
As a result of one of the reversions (I can't quite figure out which), the article currently contains the sentence,
"Conyers along with Representative Frank (see below) asked for research into the impeachability of Karl Rove with regard to the disclosure of CIA Operative Valerie Plame's identity to reporters.",
but there is no refferent to the "see below"; that is, there is no subsequent mention of Barney Frank in the article. This inconsistency should be fixed.
Half the statements and sources given for this article completely lack encyclopedic credibility.
I tried to clean up some of it, but this article is in desperate need of attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RWR8189 ( talk • contribs) .
Wikipedia doesnt have a policy about "encyclopedic credibility". It has policies on Verifiable Sources (original research) and NPOV. -- Stbalbach 14:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
If there needs to be a discussion (instead of just editing the article), then do so on the discussion page, that is what discussion pages are for, there is no reason to add a tag which deprecates the validity of the article, in particular on such a controversial topic. Please provide point point examples and actionable items that are "inappropriate tone", or just edit the article directly. -- Stbalbach 14:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I find that the irreverent tone used in this article towards the terrible twin tower attack on 9/11 is plainly demonstrated by 9/11 being placed in quotation marks in the "Reasons" section of the current version of this article. Please try to be a bit more neutral, thanks.
Who is Winters? I have tried to make legitimate amendments to this page. FOr example: to note that "some people consider impeachment to be partisan extremism." This has been immediately edited out and I received "vandalism" warnings. Whoever does that is ruining the who purpose of Wikipedia: it is NOT a forum for your stupid political views - its a objective. This won't be accepted.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.173.8.75 ( talk • contribs) .
No,your argument is worthless. My changes were no less specific than "actions by individuals and groups" and "a social movement which indicates a degree of supoort." LEAVE YOUR IDIOT POLITICS OUT.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.173.8.75 ( talk • contribs) .
This is a sourced information about the impeachment trial by experts and there is no reason to randomly delete it from the page. Dr Debug 06:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Robert Zaller is a professor of the Department of History & Politics and has written several books about history. He may not be notable for his own page, but he is notable enough for his opinions.
It seems that the link to the original story is no longer online, but the democratic convention can also be sourced on truthout [19], it is on wikinews [20] and Indymedia [21] and they all refer back to the Capitol Times which reported the news. Dr Debug 06:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
In this Boston Globe article [22], Kerry claims his comment was made in jest. This means that his comment cannot be construed as an endorsement of impeachment, as the header suggests. RWR8189 10:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Unless any of these comments were made on the floor of the senate or house chamber I contend that none of them are actual endorsments.-- mitrebox 03:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
An has asserted that Specter "also raised doubts as to the constitutionality of the FISA statue saying 'If a statute is inconsistent with the Constitution, the Constitution governs and the constitutional powers predominate'." [23]. First of all, this is Original Research because a Wikipedia edior is making an analysis of a quotation that does not exits in the source he/she is citing. The source only provides the transcript of the hearing, with no such analysis. Furthermore, the very next line, which was omitted from the quotation inserted into the edit, makes clear that Specter was in fact reaffirming his view that the Statute was constitutional, by saying: "But here you have the President signing on and saying this is it, and that’s why I’ve been so skeptical of the program because it is in flat violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, but that’s not the end of the discussion." This is why I reverted that addition. -- AladdinSE 07:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct, he makes no determination, nor does the source say he "raises doubts." We cannot editorialize. You once again do not want to include the line that follows:"But here you have the President signing on and saying this is it". he was playing devil's advocate and then rebutting that argument, and reaffirming that the statue was constitutional. The fact that we disagree about the interpretation of his comments is a clear reason to disallow your editorializing comment that he was "raising doubts as to the constitutionality of the FISA statue" because no analyst in the source you used to cite this makes that postulation.
As for "warrantless surveillance program" vs "terrorist surveillance program", my source for that was not MSNBC, it was The New York Times. The first paragraph of that article states: "The Republican who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee said today that he believed the Bush administration had violated the law with its warrantless surveillance program and that its legal justifications for the program were "strained and unrealistic." When you made your edit, you displaced my citation and made it look like my NY times article was only supporting the line about when hearings were scheduled to begin, and that the MSNBC link which you inserted was supporting my edit about "warrantless surveillance program". I will return it where I originally placed it. -- AladdinSE 09:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not confusing constitutionality with law breaking. I am just refraining from OR and from entering competing interpretations of the meaning of Specter's words. Certainly you can include some mention of the question of the constitutionality of FISA, but not by editorializing on what Specter said, but by quoting an outside source that gives the interpretation you favor. An no, we cannot insert the wording you propose about said constitutionality, until it is supported by a credible source that is making that interpretation. Otherwise we would be inserting our interpretation. I do agree that the debate regarding the constitutionality of FISA is important now and stands to increase in importance if the controversy escalates. We needn't get hung up on Specter's interview with Russert to include it. I'm certain there are many other sources that clearly articulate these conjectures. As for your contention that my source is incorrect, well by all means produce another one contradicting the New York Times and we can list both interpretations side by side. Of course the Times editorializes, that is what newspapers do. That is just another word for interpretation. Wikipedia is full of such citations. Finally, you cannot "replace" the Times source which puts forward an analysis with the MSNBC interview with only quotes and analyzes nothing. I'm not saying don't include the MSNBC interview, use it by all means to report any quotation (not analysis) you wish. --
AladdinSE 12:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Specter article makes no mention of impeachment. This Wikipedia article is specifically about impeachment, not anyone who has a gripe with the President. Has Spector said he is calling for impeachment because of the wiretap? If so, lets see it. Otherwise, dont include it here, it's just opinion to associate Spector's comment with impeachment. -- Stbalbach 15:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I started this section to talk about the revert of my edit regarding an update about what Specter on Feb 5. The impeachment edit was not mine and was dated Jan 15. Nevertheless, I examined it, and it is perfectly viable. It does not say Specter called for impeachment. It says Specter "mentioned impeachment and criminal prosecution as potential remedies if President Bush broke the law." He did mention impeachment, as the sources will show. The Washington Post article link the original editor used is now dead, I will replace it with a couple of current links.-- AladdinSE 00:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
It would make sense to me to have the "Reasons" section of this article lower on the page. The article is about "actions by individuals and groups" and public opinion polls, so I think the writing about the actions themselves and the polls should come first. I suspect "Reasons" would fit better after "Public opinion", unless the "Endorsements" section is also intended as a description of a movement as opposed to endorsements of a movement. Any comments on this? -- Brian Brondel 14:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this paragraph, removed to here:
The source link is to a press article that says it had pre-release access to the poll. Is there a reason we cant link directly to the poll results? This poll needs to be verified and the methodology and other details examined. -- Stbalbach 16:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The openening paragraph has long been a source NPOV problems (people adding NPOV tags to the aricle), and the current version is one that most people have been able to live with for a while. The problem with your version is it can be seen as NPOV. It suggests that there is an actual movement. That is why we had the "for the purposes of this article" phrase to be a little more ambiguous to appease both sides. Second "a movement to impeach" suggests there is a singular movement. This is not accurate either, there are movements or a singular movement, again, this is not so well defined nor should it be. Third it says "In American politics", which suggests that outside of American politics there is somthing else, that this is a "political term" - again, not accurate, it is simply a term of convience "for the purposes of this article". I would encourage you to read previous talk page discussions and the many POVs on this issue and the problems associated with the phrase. -- Stbalbach 17:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The ABA article makes no mention of impeachment, and the ABA makes no endorsement of impeachment. This article is called "Movement to impeach" and it documents people/organizations who call for or endorse the impeachment of GWB. Including the ABA article here with no attribution to anyone else implicitly suggests that the ABA is calling for Bush's impeachment which is original research. Note, the sections of this articles are not divided by the issues, but by the people and organizations who discuss the issues. There is already another article that reports on the details of the wireless issue. -- Stbalbach 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing random about the inclusion of the ABA's comments here. Their comments in this article does not by any stretch of the imagination mean they are endorsing any action which the edit itself does not say they are endorsing. They are making a basic constitutional evaluation on executive authority that is a cornerstone of the impeachment movement. People and organizations have made allegations that Bush's actions as far as the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy constitute cause for impeachment because the program was unconstitutional. Here is the ABA giving its considered official opinion that it was in fact unconstitutional. The material does not portend to endorse anything the ABA does not explicitly state. No "attribution" in the manner your describe is required because no claim of "impeachment endorsement" and the like is made. You cannot disallow relevant and sourced legal analysis on such grounds. -- AladdinSE 01:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad we've arrived at the agreement that the ABA material is relevant to the article. I wish to state for the record that I entirely overlooked the fact that subsection Legal experts and scholars was located under the section Endorsements of impeachment. That was my mistake. If that had been noted from the start I would have immediately agreed to its being moved. However, initially the argument was that the material was entirely irrelevant. The transfer to Reasons seems correct to me. -- AladdinSE 21:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
"Movement to impeach..." is an absurdly biased title on its face. There are also many other problems with this. Merecat 08:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see anything wrong with "Movement to impeach". Could you be more specific? How else do you suggest we title this article? Activism to get Bush out of office? trust me, this is the best title. -- Revolución ( talk) 23:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no "movement" except in the most POV fringes of the partisan mind. If "movement" is in the title, the word "partisan" must be added. Other than that, substituting "calls" in the title, would satisfy my concerns there. Merecat 04:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I strongly question the validity of this article or any article of this type. If the impeachment of GWB became a real event, like the real impeachment of Clinton did, then this would be a historical article. Of course impeachment just means bringing charges against which ends up in a trial, not particularly a conviction. However, just because there is a wish list of events that just aren't happening is not cause for a similar list of articles. Clinton's impeachment is but a mere footnote in the article on impeachment and is completely glossed over in the article on Bill Clinton referring only to a few sex scandals.
I'm dreaming of a white Christmas, but there is no article on it, and I am not about to write one.
Magi Media 04:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)Magi Media
To me the factual basis of this ongoing debate / discussion is as much sociological as it is politial or legal. Much thought and effort is going into a well-thought-out list of reasons to not lose hope for the best-case-scenario of: '2006 Dems take back the House amd Senate and impeach Bush and Cheney putting Pelosi in the White House, disgracing Bush forever'. If the same people who spend so much time with this issue, on this forum and elsewhere, would use their energy to elect Democrats, their goals may be met. Even if the Dems take the House in 2006 and 60 seats in the Senate, an impeachment would be politically untennable. Impeachment will always be 95% poilitcs and 5% law so all the lists and petitions and endorsements mean nothing unless they are senators and congressmen. It is the amount of work put into this article that is the most interesting fact to me. (and here I am writing about it :))
The result of the debate was no consensus. — Nightst a llion (?) 21:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate at this point to have a vote on the name change issue.
Movement to impeach George W. Bush → Calls to impeach George W. Bush – "Calls" is more neutral, better supported by external references, and matches the corresponding section in George W. Bush.
-- http://www.carlsheeler.com/articles_impeachment_GA.asp
-- James S. 21:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Chris S.
I contend this is a more appropriate illustration for this article. -- James S. 08:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The fair use rational is almost not-existent. Are we sure this is fair use? Proposed for deletion, see links in image above. -- Stbalbach 15:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi. This is your local intellectual property lawyer chiming in. It certainly doesn't have to be an article about "Harpers Magazine" for the cover to be fair use - see Melinda Gates (cover of Time Magazine); Ally McBeal (cover of Time Magazine); Britney Spears (cover of ELLE). The factors examined for fair use are that the use be critical or educational (this is educational, as is all of Wikipedia); that the use not be for profit (ditto); that no more of the original is taken than is needed to make the point (small, low-res image of a magazine cover); and that the market value of the original not be diminished (no one is going to decide not to buy this issue of Harpers just because we post the image here - in fact, it would more likely boost Harpers sales). On an editorial note, publication of this sentiment on a major magazine cover is probative of the existance of a "movement", and illustrative of the sentiment being expressed. Certainly a better lead than the previous pic. bd2412 T 16:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the anon editors changes to the lead section. The lead section follows the rules of Wikipedia:Lead section which is a summary of the article body contents. If the anon editor (who left a private message on my talk page) thinks it is "POV", then anon editor should edit the body of the article first, because that is what the article says. Second, the "As of March" statement suggests that thing's are fluid and may change on a monthly basis. ie. if the anon editor had said instead "As of Sunday".. than things will change on a daily basis.. if anon editor had said "As of 12pm" then things are changing hourly. So please, there is no reason to say "As of X time" it is leading and suggestive that things will in fact change. The picture caption is relevant to the context of the article, and is factual and NPOV. Finally there is no need to use the word "various". And that statement about the history of the movement, move it to the body of the article it doesn't belong in the lead, and make sure you source it because it looks like original research. -- Stbalbach 16:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
If you cannot comprehend why I keep deleting your fallacious appeal to authority, then I guess you will never understand what the problem here is. 192.168.204.130 02:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
You've addressed none of the points above. The intro doesn't appeal to authority. Please provide a detailed example and explanation of "appeal to authority". -- Stbalbach 03:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Have you read Wikipedia:Lead section? The lead section is supposed to be a summary of the article content. If you have a problem with listing those names, then you should address the problem in the article, and remove the names from the article body. The lead section is simply a summary reflection of the article. If you dont like those names, pick some others, but a few of the key people need to be represented in the article summary.
Regarding this:
This doesn't belong in the article, it implies that "anti-Bush critics" (a double negative BTW), are trying to impeach Bush not based on factual policy grounds, but based on whatever the current/latest complaint is, which happens to be the Iraq War at the moment. This is highly POV language. Plus, there is no discussion of this at all in the article body, why is it in the lead section?
Regarding this:
They are not "justifications", they are reasons. In fact our very article has a section called "Reasons". Justifications is a POV term. The lead section reflects the article contents and the article says "reasons" throughout.
Regarding this:
This is fine except for the "As of March 2006" statment. There is no reason for that. It implies that things will change in the future. This is POV. Is there some reason you are unable to say straight forward with no qualifiers that the HoR has taken no action toward impeachment?
Regarding this:
This has been discussed to death numerous times in the above talk page(s), please review. There was even a vote the change the article name from "movement" to "calls" but it never achieved consensus. That's the real source of pov concerns, the title of the article, as it "could" suggest a large unified effort -- but then again, the lead section says clearly what is meant by movement in the first sentence, so your interpretation is taken out of context and not an accurate portrayal. -- Stbalbach 17:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 06:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've answered you enough - now all you do is attack me personally "your edits are clearly not being made in good faith"; whereas I only commented on your fact set "totatly wrong". Suffice it to say, I am not going to fight with you. If you edit unacceptably to me, I will either revert or modify. If not, I won't. I've talked here in good faith and you answer with insults. Come what may, I will not repond to you again - unless and until you apologize. 192.168.204.130 06:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
You really don't get it, do you? What does editing from a pool of rotating IP's, without logging in result in? An edit log pattern just like mine has been tonight. The fact that I keep answering your off-base accusations is self-evident proof that I am not a sock, but rahter, am merely not logging in. If you accuse me even one more time of being a sock, I will not speak with you any more, and then you'll have to guess. 66.98.130.204 07:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Pages 314-315 of the House Rules for the 109th Congress state:
Now can we have a discussion of each of Rhode Island's proposed articles? -- James S. 03:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Uh, we can't just go listing points that we think are reasons and we can't cite other wiki pages as sources. We need outside sources. Else we are committing original research which is a big no-no. 70.84.56.172 09:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Innocence must be presumed until the president has been convicted of any wrongdoing.-- RWR8189 10:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict
As for the final two paragraphs in "Reasons" they have no place in this article. First, the DCCC or DSCC makes no endorsement of impeachment. Inferring things from their usage of terms is original research and has no place here. Second, the ABA makes no endorsement of impeachment, this article is not the place to discuss exclusively the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy-- RWR8189 10:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The ABA article [39]:
and
and
and
and
The ABA is evidently discussing the inconsistencies in the argumentation put forward by the Bush administration. They show that several points are possibly violating US law. Which brings us back to "high crimes ..." Nomen Nescio 21:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph: Many activists charge that Bush committed obstruction of Congress, a felony under 18 U.S.C. 1001, by withholding information and by supplying information Bush should have known to be incorrect in his States of the Union speeches. This law is comparable to perjury, but it does not require that the statements be made under oath. Martha Stewart recently went to prison for violating this law by making false statements to investigators. Caspar Weinberger was indicted under this law in relation to his involvement in the Iran-Contra affair, but he escaped prosecution by being pardoned by Bush's father.
is original research and contains no citations, it does not belong in the article as of now, not to mention a large level of POV inherent in the writing.-- RWR8189 10:34, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Something needs to be made clear: when a lawyers says that something is against the law - well, usually he says it in court, in which case his statement is deliberately leading to prosecution. That is the role of a lawyer. When he makes statements within this role (that is, as a lawyer), his statements have that inherent import. A lawyer does not say someone is a criminal, they say that the person has commited a crime. And a lawyer never says "this person has commited a crime." That is an arbitrary assertion, and holds no water. They say what the law is, what the persons actions are, and how the two relate. By this act, they prosecute or defend. And that is what the ABA is doing as the ABA. Kevin Baas talk 02:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I am wondering why this article regarding the impeachment movement does not include more discussion of 9/11 under "reasons"? A few things to look into and consider: (1) Many New Yorkers (as shown in polls) and others (including MN Senator Mark Dayton) were very dissatisfied with the offical 9/11 commission report, and claimed that it seemed to be "doctored"; (2) Bush claimed that his initial reaction to seeing the hole(s) in the WTC tower(s) was something to the effect of, "Now there's a lousy pilot" - and yet we learned later that as early as August 6, 2001, he had received warnings, in the form of PDB's (Presidential Daily Briefs, or intelligence briefs) claiming that there was soon to be a terrorist attack involving hijackings. The "lousy pilot" remark seemed calculated, in order to cover up forknowledge. (3) The Mindy Klineberg (sp?) testimony to the commission was particularly damning, as was the memo from former FBI lawyer Coleen Rowley. (4) Surveilance video from the roof of the convenience store near the Pentagon was confiscated in the name of national security, and never released, although it might have cleared up the question of whether a plane or a missile struck the Pentagon. (5) To many people who have followed the story, the only wild conspiracy theory seems to be that the terrorists acted alone, without inside help from the Bush administration. (6) Theologian and professor emeritus of Claremont College, David Ray Griffin, has written and lectured about the contradictions and holes in the official report, as well as about evidence that the WTC towers and a third WTC building collapsed because of controlled demolition; the evidence includes both recently released oral history from New Yorkers and firefighters who were leaving the WTC before it collapsed, and the evidence of the videos of the collapse. (6) For Bush to have known but to have allowed 9/11 to unfold seems to be a possibility; knowing and aiding the terrorists seems to be another; both would be impeachable offenses. // - This topic seems to need links to articles on so-called 9-11 conspiracy theories, as much as I know that is a derogatory term, and as much as I'm also aware of psy-ops concepts such as "poisoning the well" - when false conspiracy theories are circulated to discredit true ones, etc. 14:00 17 March 2006 —This unsigned comment was added by 71.214.132.101 ( talk • contribs) .
In an article like this I would think making numerous and extensive changes without discussing them could be misunderstood. Please make smaller rewrites and discuss here in the future. Nomen Nescio 10:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Even after I provided sources some editors insist there are no sources. Please read this page and discuss your problems. Redacting out information on the basis of incorrect assertions does not constitute a good faith edit! Nomen Nescio 20:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This should go in somewhere: Vermont towns want Bush impeached - five Vermont towns have passed resolutions (at least one in a town hall meeting) directing Bernie Sanders to introduce articles of impeachment against Bush. Sanders says it's impractical at this time. bd2412 T 15:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The title of "Movement to impeach George W. Bush" is original research in and of itself. There is no "movement" being referred to by that word in the press or anywhere by any reliable source. The page ought to be renamed to "Partisan calls to impeach President Bush". 70.85.195.225 17:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This morning this article looked quite different. I changed the major deletions, although there were comments they were incorrect! Example, the reasons sections got crippled because there were no sources, looking higher up this page you will notice I supplied ample sources for that section. That clearly constitutes an incorrect edit comment. You ask of me to go back and restore all these unwarranted edits? That is ridiculuous.
Furthermore the numerous and elaborate edits since this morning were never discussed. Why do I need to discuss something I discussed intensively this morning? Please read this page! Nomen Nescio 20:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Avoid self-references says to avoid self references. The lead-in to this article currently contains the phrase "for the purpose of this article". From reading this talk page, I gather that this is because some people think that the title of the article is not in common use outside of Wikipedia. I understand that moving the page was suggested, but did not recieve consensus. Never-the-less, failure to reach consensus on a title change does not give us the right to violate Wikipedia:Avoid self-references. The self-referential phrase adds nothing, and conflicts with the proper tone for an encyclopedia. Whether or not the article is moved makes no difference, that self-referential phrase must be removed. Johntex\ talk 21:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Please stop re-inserting "reasons" without explicit citations to external sources which make clear that EACH "reason" mentioned is being advanced by a NOTABLE, VALID SOURCE as a "reason" for impeachment. If you fail to do this, then we are commiting original research in making that list. The correct place to list wiki articles like Plame and Yellowcake is in the See also section, NOT the "reasons" section. For the purposes of the narrative of our article here, wiki links to wiki pages are NOT acceptable primary sources. We must have a link to external, not internal sources or these "reasons" cannot rightly be listed as such. Please keep uncited wiki link "reasons" in the See also section only. 192.168.232.76 07:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Each and every specific allegation listed under "reasons/rationales" - this includes sub-section titles, MUST be backed up by specific links to external notable sources which specifically call for impeachment FOR THAT PARTICULAR REASON. Any allegation which is not backed up this way is original research and is NOT acceptable. 67.15.76.188 10:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
It is getting rather bulky so I started a new page for the reasons. It can be found here. Nomen Nescio 14:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I've semi-protected this article to try to get the edit war to cool off William M. Connolley 20:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Splash, how much longer do you plan to keep the full protection on? There is no discussion happening here, because there is nothing to discuss. The anon sock puppet user violated 3RR, it's really that simple. -- Stbalbach 16:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Stbalbach and User:AdamJacobMuller are reverting in close cooperation. I suspect them of sockpuppetry. Please see revert history for this article for proof. [54] 192.168.204.130 20:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.98.130.204 ( talk • contribs)
Stop with the accusations and read the full edit history with all the edit summaries. Many good edits have been made here by anons recently. It's AdamJacobMuller who made trouble, not any of the anons. Adam has been reported for 7RR violation [55]. 70.85.195.225 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The "current" tag is used when the information in an article is "changing rapidly" - it is used in events where the fundamentals of the story are changing hourly, like in hurricanes, as a warning to readers that they need to check back often, or that the basic facts may as of yet be incomplete. It is not used in articles about an ongoing issue that is already ongoing for 5 years and is fundamentally up to date, the article is about the same as it was 1 month ago. Will it keep changing? Of course. Lots of articles keep changing. Will the article change daily? No. Is it a current event? Of course lots of articles are "current events". The tag is not needed and is inappropriate to the rates and types of changes happening with this article. -- Stbalbach 15:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
http://news.google.com/news?q=impeach%20Bush&sourceid=mozilla-search&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&sa=N&tab=wn and http://www.google.com/search?q=impeach+Bush&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 demonstate that as a matter of fact it is an article that referrs to something in the news about which news is being made daily. As far as recent edits go, the tag "As a result of recent vandalism, editing of this page by new or unregistered users is temporarily disabled." indicates many would be edits aren't being made because it is protected. By your standard, any protected page is automaticly not current. This movement is gathering steam and judging it based on edit volumes a month ago is not relevant. "Types of changes" includes reverts, so any article that someone is constantly reverting would also automaticly not qualify for "current". (Whether that's the case here or not, I haven't checked. I just yesterday saw a TV program on it and looked it up here in Wikipedia. It's current to me.) WAS 4.250 15:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I just somewhere saw these 2 pages:
What is the difference between the two? Is there one or is it just a double? -- Jared [T]/ [+] 20:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It looks/sounds like the second page may have been made to substitute for this one. Mhking 22:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This phrase is just plain wrong:
The word "proscribed" is obviously incorrect and should be deleted. Also, it's not only elected officials that may be impeached but "all civil Officers of the United States." – Shoaler ( talk) 12:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.
I got it this time. Kevin Baas talk 21:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The relevancy of the content:
has been disputed.
The waxman letter includes the paragraph:
The Presentment Clause of the U.S. Constitution states that before a bill can become law, it must be passed by both Houses of Congress.[3] When the President took the oath of office, he swore to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States," which includes the Presentment Clause. If the President signed the Reconciliation Act knowing its constitutional infirmity, he would in effect be placing himself above the Constitution.
which raises the question as to whether the president has commited an impeachable offense. Kevin Baas talk 02:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The event has also been discussed at Talk:George_W._Bush#Bush_signs_bill_into_law_that_wasn.27t_passed_by_Congress, for whoever's interested. Kevin Baas talk 22:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Several editors and I have removed the website [59] Another editor continues to add it back. This website adds no value to this article, and is only a store, and maybe a blog. None the less, we are writing an encylopedia here, and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of links-- Adam ( talk) 03:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Savage is playing a significant role in the social movement to impeach a sitting U.S. president. If Wikipedia is to accurately represent the subject for posterity, his site should be part of that entry. The effort is distinguishable in that he is a nationally syndicated columnist attempting to rally support over a period of time, not a hack writing a single op-ed piece.
If Rosa Parks had run a blog against racism & segregation, would you have removed the link? - 20-June-2006