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There are a wave of editors who wander up to this article (and associated ones like Colston bun) and want to spell out that Colston was first and foremost a slave trader. The connection to this is true, and his reputation has been discredited somewhat because of it, particularly recently and particularly by anti-government groups such as Massive Attack. However, I don't believe we can include it so prominently as it's not a view spelled out by sources generally; Colston did a lot of good for Bristol and was considered a philanthropist around the city, and without trying to excuse his connections to slave trade, he was simply doing what was considered morally acceptable in 17th/18th century Britain. @ Rodw:, I don't suppose you've got any views on this? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:57, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
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I want to change some information back to correct 95.147.193.73 ( talk) 15:34, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Removal of wire philanthropist from bio of a man who was a slave trader. 148.252.128.81 ( talk) 16:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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ADD TO STATUE OF COLSTON
On June the 7th 2020 during a Black Lives Matter protest in response to the death of George Floyd by a police officer after kneeling on his neck for over 8 minutes, the Statue of Colston was pulled down by protesters. Following this, it was carried to the Harbourside and thrown into the Avon River, where it now resides. It's location is visible on Google maps, which was updated only hours after the occurrence. 86.7.194.79 ( talk) 16:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Edward colstons statue was torn down on 8th June 2020 by protestors, protesting for Black Lives Matter 89.124.9.9 ( talk) 19:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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A person can not really be a philanthropist if they do so by selling other human beings. This description of this man is white washing history. I suggest his description be edited to "a piece of shit who liked to put his name on buildings for white people by kidnapping and selling black people to other white people."
Thanks and have a wonderful day. Dumdum263 ( talk) 20:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Change “thrown into Bristol Bay” to “thrown into Bristol harbour”. Reason: geographical accuracy. Doctorjohny ( talk) 21:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Change profession from "Merchant" to "Slave-trader" 86.175.239.3 ( talk) 23:57, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
There is clearly a few fans of his who are sugarcoating his legacy. Wikipedia is impartial. We call a spade a spade.
The truth of the matter is that Colston was a man who participated and garnered most of his income from the slave-trade. Who then utilized the money at-home for philanthropic reasons (whether it is to garner love from the masses or clean the stains of slavery off of his name). Regardless, we mention both things. We do not omit impartial information, and neither should we white-wash his actions. JasonMoore ( talk) 03:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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His career and work was also vital to building the economy we have today. Despite left wing principles. 78.150.17.0 ( talk) 08:11, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Not done - unsourced commentary. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
I suggest that the description of Colston as a ‘philanthropist’ and projects funded through his exploitation as ‘philanthropic’ or ‘philanthropy’ or other variants, be removed as inappropriate, disrespectful and inflammatory. Di cee21 ( talk) 14:28, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
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Change “His wealth was largely acquired through the trade and exploitation of slaves” to “His wealth was largely acquired through the trade and exploitation of enslaved Africans” 173.235.214.126 ( talk) 00:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
His occupation was being a slave trader, not a ‘merchant’ Emisweet ( talk) 10:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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What is "disorder public disorder" (this phrase which appears in the current version of this article)? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 22:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Edward Colston was a Tory MP. The articles for Pitt the Younger and the Duke of Wellington mention their status as Tories in the lead sentence, alongside their other notable professions. As such, it's appropriate and consistent to note his status as a Tory MP in the first sentence of this article, alongside his other occupations of merchant, slave trader and philanthropist.
I should also point out that local politicians and lobbyists attempted to erase all mention of his status as a Tory MP from a plaque put up to educate locals on the origins of the statue. This makes his political affiliation even more relevant.
I brought the edit in line with articles of other historical statesmen of the UK. Do we have consensus that an exception shouldn't be made for Colston?
Kronix1986 ( talk) 11:17, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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Colston donated much of the wealth he made to charities in Bristol and across the country, bequeathing around £71,000 to charity at his death. He also gave extensively to Bristol churches, donated to Queen Elizabeth's Hospital School and founded a religious school for 100 boys. 2A00:23C5:C607:300:54DE:3EF9:9010:5A40 ( talk) 05:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Not sure why prople keep removing parts of his life and all of his wealth donated to Bristol after his death. Oricus100 ( talk) 06:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Ok Anonymouss.3513864 ( talk) 18:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
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Not sure who has included Tory party in the article but it's clearly erroneous as the Tory party didn't exist until 1834 and Edward Colston died in 1710 (source: /info/en/?search=Conservative_Party_(UK))
Suggest removing all references to Tory as this is factually incorrect.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonjinn ( talk • contribs)
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He was taken down from Bristol central because the controversial origins of the statue during the Black Lives Matter protests followingthe death of George floyd. WritermanN0.1 ( talk) 10:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Not done - This matter is already covered in depth at the Statue of Edward Colston article. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 10:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
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Hello, I request that his occupation be changed from merchant to slave trader.
Many thanks,
Emi Emisweet ( talk) 10:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Could we consider slight grammar and prose change to this sentence?
"The former Bristol youth worker is a Black man who was instrumental in the 1963 Bristol Bus Boycott, inspired by the one in Montgomery, Alabama, in the United States, that brought an end to an illegal employment colour ban in Bristol bus companies.[23]"
Does WP:MOS state that we need to capitalise "Black"? And I think "inspired by the one in Montgomery" seems a bit clumsy? I realise that the proceeding words "Bristol Bus Boycott" help show that "the one" is referred to a bus boycott, but would it read a bit more professional if we had (with proposed changes in "[]"):
"The former Bristol youth worker is a [b]lack man who was instrumental in the 1963 Bristol Bus Boycott which, inspired by [an American bus boycott/a boycott] in Montgomery, Alabama, brought an end to an illegal employment colour ban in Bristol bus companies.[23]"
Any thoughts? 2A00:23C4:6C0C:A900:3854:65B3:6B0:9FE2 ( talk) 10:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Given today's events - and the relatively large section in the existing article - I would favour a separate article on Statue of Edward Colston. I suspect this will be in the news for some time, and indeed be of some lasting significance Ghmyrtle ( talk) 14:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
"Edward Colston (2 November 1636 – 11 October 1721) was an English slave trader, merchant, philanthropist, and Member of Parliament. He supported and endowed schools, almshouses, hospitals and churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. His name is commemorated in several Bristol landmarks, streets, three schools and the Colston bun. Many of his charitable foundations still survive.[1] A portion of his wealth was acquired through the trade and exploitation of slaves.[2][3][4][5][6]"
Chronological order would be preferred within the first paragraph.
Instead, how about "Edward Colston (2 November 1636 – 11 October 1721) was a merchant, English slave trader, philanthropist, and Member of Parliament." As that is the order how he lived.
Also, "A portion of his wealth was acquired through the trade and exploitation of slaves.[2][3][4][5][6]" is redudant to say that a portion of unknown amount is misleading as it's already stated in the first sentance that he was a slave trader, however the links are highly informative and should be put within the career path (After he joined the Royal African Company would be a better place.)
TheRealVordox (
talk)
20:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
The sentence, "Ship's crew mortality rates were often similar and sometimes greater than the mortality rates amongst the slaves" is not only irrelevant to the article, but is offensively so. One is led to wonder whether the article should point out that many people were injured or killed in building the slave ships and in forging the shackles for enslaved people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ppazniokas ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
When scope is deemed irrelevant we have truly hit mass saturation of low information society, which is shameful. 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 23:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
The body of the article currently states "The proportion of his wealth that came from his involvement in the slave trade and slave-produced sugar is unknown, and can only be the subject of conjecture unless further evidence is unearthed." The lead claims to know the opposite, and that his wealth largely came from slavery. This is rather confusing. -- Kendrick7 talk 22:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
"The History Today Who's Who In British History" (see ref in main article) states that he is a "slave-trader" and "withdrew from the African Co. in 1692 but continued trading in slaves privately". The entry also says: "Colston's manufactured trading beads that were exchanged with other goods for slaves" but has no further detail. I would assume that "Colston's" was a business which specialised in manufacturing trade beads for sale in connection with the slave trade and would be interested whether anyone has any further information on this aspect of his career. -- Sufcmad ( talk) 23:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
There was a statement saying "Many of his charitable foundations still survive." citing < https://www.dolphin-society.org.uk/history>. I changed this in this revision. The source says "Originally founded by people in Bristol who were keen to replicate the financial support shown by Bristol-born Edward Colston in the 1600s, ...", "The Societies’ founders were never his contemporaries and the Societies never received any of his wealth.". Sipos0 ( talk) 23:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
It may be that charitable foundations that he founded do still exist, but the source implies not (by saying that these are probably the city's oldest, and that they date from after his death). I would be good if someone could check further. Sipos0 ( talk) 23:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Given the downgrading of what the sentence says, it may make sense to move it from the first paragraph. Sipos0 ( talk) 23:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Slave Trader Edward Colston would only allow people to benefit from his wealth if they held his Political beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:4304:8100:A824:F940:F7B9:214B ( talk) 09:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
A reference in the article to a poll of Bristol residents conducted in 2014 by The Post (showing that 56% were in favour of retaining the statue) seems to have been removed.
Why?
Whether you agree on the statue being up or not is irrelevant. The poll forms part of the debate on its presence in the city. You'll forgive me if I seems that some editors have taken it upon themselves to scratch the poll from the record due to political bias. Explanations please. F.M. Sir D.H ( talk) 12:00, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Edit: The poll is still available on the article for Colston's statue. Can we expect it to disappear from there as well? F.M. Sir D.H ( talk) 12:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
I concur that the removal of mention of this poll, which was there last time I looked at this article a few days ago, is disturbing and seems like an attempt to skew the article. Ben Finn ( talk) 12:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I feel that the introduction contains insufficient reference to the change in Colston's public image over the centuries and I propose new wording for the first paragraph. I would like to replace
with something like this:
I still don't see what's not neutral about "He later came to be regarded as a philanthropist, as a result of donating money to charitable causes which supported those who shared his political and religious views,". We are not saying "he was a philantropist" but "he was regarded as a philantropist" which is accurate. Whatever is happening "in the real world" should not influence us for this kind of thing, since that would be WP:RECENTISM, as I said. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 14:07, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Mildly off-topic
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How many threads are this on this? I would remind users we are not a soapbox. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
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This is about discussing how to improve the article, not users conduct. Please can we focus on the question at hand? Slatersteven ( talk) 15:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Whon invested into the Royal African Company is not relevant to the article. Also, the exploits about John Locke, like him beeing the "most influential of Enlightenment thinkers and commonly known as the 'Father of Liberalism'" are highly questionable. This section should be removed. -- Dete-Rakete ( talk) 21:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Any chance of the other aspects of Colston's life being written about? This is supposed to be a biographical and encyclopaedic account of Colston, the man, not his 21 century controversies. The ODNB doesn't read like this, and neither should this. This article is starting to read like a Controversies of Edward Colston article. By all means, someone start that, but this one is starting to suffer WP:UNDUE. Cassianto Talk 10:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
The ODNB doesn't read like this, and neither should this.
This article is starting to read like a Controversies of Edward Colston article.
... but this one is starting to suffer WP:UNDUE.
My complaint is about the undue weight that is being levied towards recent events.
I like the Admiral Nelson article myself, I like to use that as a benchmark on how to construct an article on a historic British figure. Maybe you guys can get a few ideas from there for article structure. Govvy ( talk) 15:57, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
The only evidence offered for this statement is a link to a newspaper article which states that this was part of the proposed wording for a second plaque. As this seems to have been the work of a politically motivated group and as there is no proper proof of the statement it should be deleted. Please delete Colston constituted his charities to deny their benefits to those who did not share his religious and political views.[14] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.102.250 ( talk) 18:45, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
86.142.102.250 ( talk) 18:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
References
Dr Dresser said she disagreed with the third proposal, claiming it 'sanitised' the slave trade.
Theft or vandalism of second Colston statue plaque 'may be justified' - Tory councillor
a range of groups, and included Year 6 pupils from Colston Primary School. Please read WP:RS which states
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources. Where did these primary school pupils publish their work and open it to peer review? The article is of course a proper source for what these groups feel should be the wording on the plaque, but to maintain it supports a statement as fact in wikivoice is a complete misunderstanding of how WP works. fiveby( zero) 12:38, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
References
Sorry, can someone point me to the discussion where it was agreed that "philanthropist" would be taken out? Cassianto Talk 08:42, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
The word "benefactor" appears nowhere in the article despite being frequently used in the sources. The word "philanthropic" is used in a section title. Good writers use synonyms. I also removed unsourced claims that Colton donated money outside of Bristol. I would be interested in reading references that actually say this. (Neither of the two articles cited supported the claim... that doesn't mean it was wrong.) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 08:52, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I am looking forward to seeing evidence of the promised references to Colston's extensive philanthropy outside of Bristol. Apparently, for some reason, this entry formerly cited two articles which did not mention that philanthropy instead of a third which did? Weird. I also found that one of the three references supporting the "nobody knows how much of his capital originally came from slave-trading" said the exact opposite...
From 1680 he became heavily involved in the slave trade, from which he made the bulk of his fortune, and was an active member of the Royal African Company, becoming deputy-governor briefly during 1689–90. At the time of his admission to the Merchant Venturers’ Society in 1683 he was also described as a West Indian merchant. The 1680s were undoubtedly his most lucrative years in business, and according to one account he was said to have owned over 40 ships.
-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
@ SashiRolls: here are the quotes you asked for. From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography website, in the article on Edward Colston by Kenneth Morgan.
His munificence also extended to other parts of the country, and he gave benefactions to churches, hospitals, workhouses, and almshouses in London, Surrey, Devon, and Lancashire. But these did not match the extent of his charitable gifts to Bristol.
A bronze statue of him stands in Colston Avenue, and the philanthropist is also honoured by the city's chief concert venue, the Colston Hall, and various streets that are named after him.
-- DeFacto ( talk). 14:27, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I really don't think some of you have read all the records online or other sources. Colston took commodities to Africa from England, slaves (gold, gems, ivory) from Africa to the Caribbean, his routes back from the Caribbean traded large quantities of sugar. He also had a couple of ships sale to India via Middle East, those ships would drop of slaves to sale in the markets in the middle east, carry on to India, and bring back tea. So please do not say he made the majority of his money in slaves, that would be totally incorrect. Govvy ( talk) 14:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
If he's to be described as "a philanthropist" in the lede, then he must also be described as "a slave trader" since both are equally true and equally significant. "Slave trader" must come first since he was a slave trader before he was a philanthropist, and the money he made from slave trading enable him to give money to charity.
Note: the slave trade was at the time the most lucrative sea trade from Africa. It's where the richest sea merchants made most of their riches.
Michael F 1967 ( talk) 01:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Is this an RS? Slatersteven ( talk) 10:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
In this change the article was apparently fully protected until 11:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC) by El C. So how could this edit have happened. Is The Land an admin? -- DeFacto ( talk). 12:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Could an admin please correct the misattribution of the authorship of the following encyclopedia contribution, please? You can in find it by searching for <ref name=hayton>:
From 1680 he became heavily involved in the slave trade, from which he made the bulk of his fortune, and was an active member of the Royal African Company, becoming deputy-governor briefly during 1689–90.
Given the current context on the page, it is likely we would need to start an RfC to determine how best to fix the current misrepresentation of the source in the lede, but at least we could get the author right, even if we get what the author says wrong. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Done - those seem pretty uncontroverisal to me. The Land ( talk) 19:06, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
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Minor issue 2nd paragraph, repeated word - change: ... "involved in the slave trade as a member of of the Royal African Company"... To: ... "involved in the slave trade as a member of the Royal African Company"... That is to delete the repeated "of" Thanks Crep171166 ( talk) 18:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC) Crep171166 ( talk) 18:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC) Done - thanks for pointing that out The Land ( talk) 19:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
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There are a wave of editors who wander up to this article (and associated ones like Colston bun) and want to spell out that Colston was first and foremost a slave trader. The connection to this is true, and his reputation has been discredited somewhat because of it, particularly recently and particularly by anti-government groups such as Massive Attack. However, I don't believe we can include it so prominently as it's not a view spelled out by sources generally; Colston did a lot of good for Bristol and was considered a philanthropist around the city, and without trying to excuse his connections to slave trade, he was simply doing what was considered morally acceptable in 17th/18th century Britain. @ Rodw:, I don't suppose you've got any views on this? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:57, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
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I want to change some information back to correct 95.147.193.73 ( talk) 15:34, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Removal of wire philanthropist from bio of a man who was a slave trader. 148.252.128.81 ( talk) 16:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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ADD TO STATUE OF COLSTON
On June the 7th 2020 during a Black Lives Matter protest in response to the death of George Floyd by a police officer after kneeling on his neck for over 8 minutes, the Statue of Colston was pulled down by protesters. Following this, it was carried to the Harbourside and thrown into the Avon River, where it now resides. It's location is visible on Google maps, which was updated only hours after the occurrence. 86.7.194.79 ( talk) 16:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Edward colstons statue was torn down on 8th June 2020 by protestors, protesting for Black Lives Matter 89.124.9.9 ( talk) 19:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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A person can not really be a philanthropist if they do so by selling other human beings. This description of this man is white washing history. I suggest his description be edited to "a piece of shit who liked to put his name on buildings for white people by kidnapping and selling black people to other white people."
Thanks and have a wonderful day. Dumdum263 ( talk) 20:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Change “thrown into Bristol Bay” to “thrown into Bristol harbour”. Reason: geographical accuracy. Doctorjohny ( talk) 21:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Change profession from "Merchant" to "Slave-trader" 86.175.239.3 ( talk) 23:57, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
There is clearly a few fans of his who are sugarcoating his legacy. Wikipedia is impartial. We call a spade a spade.
The truth of the matter is that Colston was a man who participated and garnered most of his income from the slave-trade. Who then utilized the money at-home for philanthropic reasons (whether it is to garner love from the masses or clean the stains of slavery off of his name). Regardless, we mention both things. We do not omit impartial information, and neither should we white-wash his actions. JasonMoore ( talk) 03:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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His career and work was also vital to building the economy we have today. Despite left wing principles. 78.150.17.0 ( talk) 08:11, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Not done - unsourced commentary. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
I suggest that the description of Colston as a ‘philanthropist’ and projects funded through his exploitation as ‘philanthropic’ or ‘philanthropy’ or other variants, be removed as inappropriate, disrespectful and inflammatory. Di cee21 ( talk) 14:28, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
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Change “His wealth was largely acquired through the trade and exploitation of slaves” to “His wealth was largely acquired through the trade and exploitation of enslaved Africans” 173.235.214.126 ( talk) 00:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
His occupation was being a slave trader, not a ‘merchant’ Emisweet ( talk) 10:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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What is "disorder public disorder" (this phrase which appears in the current version of this article)? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 22:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Edward Colston was a Tory MP. The articles for Pitt the Younger and the Duke of Wellington mention their status as Tories in the lead sentence, alongside their other notable professions. As such, it's appropriate and consistent to note his status as a Tory MP in the first sentence of this article, alongside his other occupations of merchant, slave trader and philanthropist.
I should also point out that local politicians and lobbyists attempted to erase all mention of his status as a Tory MP from a plaque put up to educate locals on the origins of the statue. This makes his political affiliation even more relevant.
I brought the edit in line with articles of other historical statesmen of the UK. Do we have consensus that an exception shouldn't be made for Colston?
Kronix1986 ( talk) 11:17, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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Colston donated much of the wealth he made to charities in Bristol and across the country, bequeathing around £71,000 to charity at his death. He also gave extensively to Bristol churches, donated to Queen Elizabeth's Hospital School and founded a religious school for 100 boys. 2A00:23C5:C607:300:54DE:3EF9:9010:5A40 ( talk) 05:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Not sure why prople keep removing parts of his life and all of his wealth donated to Bristol after his death. Oricus100 ( talk) 06:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Ok Anonymouss.3513864 ( talk) 18:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
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Not sure who has included Tory party in the article but it's clearly erroneous as the Tory party didn't exist until 1834 and Edward Colston died in 1710 (source: /info/en/?search=Conservative_Party_(UK))
Suggest removing all references to Tory as this is factually incorrect.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonjinn ( talk • contribs)
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He was taken down from Bristol central because the controversial origins of the statue during the Black Lives Matter protests followingthe death of George floyd. WritermanN0.1 ( talk) 10:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Not done - This matter is already covered in depth at the Statue of Edward Colston article. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 10:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
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Hello, I request that his occupation be changed from merchant to slave trader.
Many thanks,
Emi Emisweet ( talk) 10:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Could we consider slight grammar and prose change to this sentence?
"The former Bristol youth worker is a Black man who was instrumental in the 1963 Bristol Bus Boycott, inspired by the one in Montgomery, Alabama, in the United States, that brought an end to an illegal employment colour ban in Bristol bus companies.[23]"
Does WP:MOS state that we need to capitalise "Black"? And I think "inspired by the one in Montgomery" seems a bit clumsy? I realise that the proceeding words "Bristol Bus Boycott" help show that "the one" is referred to a bus boycott, but would it read a bit more professional if we had (with proposed changes in "[]"):
"The former Bristol youth worker is a [b]lack man who was instrumental in the 1963 Bristol Bus Boycott which, inspired by [an American bus boycott/a boycott] in Montgomery, Alabama, brought an end to an illegal employment colour ban in Bristol bus companies.[23]"
Any thoughts? 2A00:23C4:6C0C:A900:3854:65B3:6B0:9FE2 ( talk) 10:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Given today's events - and the relatively large section in the existing article - I would favour a separate article on Statue of Edward Colston. I suspect this will be in the news for some time, and indeed be of some lasting significance Ghmyrtle ( talk) 14:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
"Edward Colston (2 November 1636 – 11 October 1721) was an English slave trader, merchant, philanthropist, and Member of Parliament. He supported and endowed schools, almshouses, hospitals and churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. His name is commemorated in several Bristol landmarks, streets, three schools and the Colston bun. Many of his charitable foundations still survive.[1] A portion of his wealth was acquired through the trade and exploitation of slaves.[2][3][4][5][6]"
Chronological order would be preferred within the first paragraph.
Instead, how about "Edward Colston (2 November 1636 – 11 October 1721) was a merchant, English slave trader, philanthropist, and Member of Parliament." As that is the order how he lived.
Also, "A portion of his wealth was acquired through the trade and exploitation of slaves.[2][3][4][5][6]" is redudant to say that a portion of unknown amount is misleading as it's already stated in the first sentance that he was a slave trader, however the links are highly informative and should be put within the career path (After he joined the Royal African Company would be a better place.)
TheRealVordox (
talk)
20:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
The sentence, "Ship's crew mortality rates were often similar and sometimes greater than the mortality rates amongst the slaves" is not only irrelevant to the article, but is offensively so. One is led to wonder whether the article should point out that many people were injured or killed in building the slave ships and in forging the shackles for enslaved people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ppazniokas ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
When scope is deemed irrelevant we have truly hit mass saturation of low information society, which is shameful. 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 23:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
The body of the article currently states "The proportion of his wealth that came from his involvement in the slave trade and slave-produced sugar is unknown, and can only be the subject of conjecture unless further evidence is unearthed." The lead claims to know the opposite, and that his wealth largely came from slavery. This is rather confusing. -- Kendrick7 talk 22:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
"The History Today Who's Who In British History" (see ref in main article) states that he is a "slave-trader" and "withdrew from the African Co. in 1692 but continued trading in slaves privately". The entry also says: "Colston's manufactured trading beads that were exchanged with other goods for slaves" but has no further detail. I would assume that "Colston's" was a business which specialised in manufacturing trade beads for sale in connection with the slave trade and would be interested whether anyone has any further information on this aspect of his career. -- Sufcmad ( talk) 23:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
There was a statement saying "Many of his charitable foundations still survive." citing < https://www.dolphin-society.org.uk/history>. I changed this in this revision. The source says "Originally founded by people in Bristol who were keen to replicate the financial support shown by Bristol-born Edward Colston in the 1600s, ...", "The Societies’ founders were never his contemporaries and the Societies never received any of his wealth.". Sipos0 ( talk) 23:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
It may be that charitable foundations that he founded do still exist, but the source implies not (by saying that these are probably the city's oldest, and that they date from after his death). I would be good if someone could check further. Sipos0 ( talk) 23:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Given the downgrading of what the sentence says, it may make sense to move it from the first paragraph. Sipos0 ( talk) 23:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Slave Trader Edward Colston would only allow people to benefit from his wealth if they held his Political beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:4304:8100:A824:F940:F7B9:214B ( talk) 09:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
A reference in the article to a poll of Bristol residents conducted in 2014 by The Post (showing that 56% were in favour of retaining the statue) seems to have been removed.
Why?
Whether you agree on the statue being up or not is irrelevant. The poll forms part of the debate on its presence in the city. You'll forgive me if I seems that some editors have taken it upon themselves to scratch the poll from the record due to political bias. Explanations please. F.M. Sir D.H ( talk) 12:00, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Edit: The poll is still available on the article for Colston's statue. Can we expect it to disappear from there as well? F.M. Sir D.H ( talk) 12:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
I concur that the removal of mention of this poll, which was there last time I looked at this article a few days ago, is disturbing and seems like an attempt to skew the article. Ben Finn ( talk) 12:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I feel that the introduction contains insufficient reference to the change in Colston's public image over the centuries and I propose new wording for the first paragraph. I would like to replace
with something like this:
I still don't see what's not neutral about "He later came to be regarded as a philanthropist, as a result of donating money to charitable causes which supported those who shared his political and religious views,". We are not saying "he was a philantropist" but "he was regarded as a philantropist" which is accurate. Whatever is happening "in the real world" should not influence us for this kind of thing, since that would be WP:RECENTISM, as I said. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 14:07, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Mildly off-topic
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How many threads are this on this? I would remind users we are not a soapbox. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
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This is about discussing how to improve the article, not users conduct. Please can we focus on the question at hand? Slatersteven ( talk) 15:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Whon invested into the Royal African Company is not relevant to the article. Also, the exploits about John Locke, like him beeing the "most influential of Enlightenment thinkers and commonly known as the 'Father of Liberalism'" are highly questionable. This section should be removed. -- Dete-Rakete ( talk) 21:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Any chance of the other aspects of Colston's life being written about? This is supposed to be a biographical and encyclopaedic account of Colston, the man, not his 21 century controversies. The ODNB doesn't read like this, and neither should this. This article is starting to read like a Controversies of Edward Colston article. By all means, someone start that, but this one is starting to suffer WP:UNDUE. Cassianto Talk 10:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
The ODNB doesn't read like this, and neither should this.
This article is starting to read like a Controversies of Edward Colston article.
... but this one is starting to suffer WP:UNDUE.
My complaint is about the undue weight that is being levied towards recent events.
I like the Admiral Nelson article myself, I like to use that as a benchmark on how to construct an article on a historic British figure. Maybe you guys can get a few ideas from there for article structure. Govvy ( talk) 15:57, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
The only evidence offered for this statement is a link to a newspaper article which states that this was part of the proposed wording for a second plaque. As this seems to have been the work of a politically motivated group and as there is no proper proof of the statement it should be deleted. Please delete Colston constituted his charities to deny their benefits to those who did not share his religious and political views.[14] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.102.250 ( talk) 18:45, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
86.142.102.250 ( talk) 18:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
References
Dr Dresser said she disagreed with the third proposal, claiming it 'sanitised' the slave trade.
Theft or vandalism of second Colston statue plaque 'may be justified' - Tory councillor
a range of groups, and included Year 6 pupils from Colston Primary School. Please read WP:RS which states
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources. Where did these primary school pupils publish their work and open it to peer review? The article is of course a proper source for what these groups feel should be the wording on the plaque, but to maintain it supports a statement as fact in wikivoice is a complete misunderstanding of how WP works. fiveby( zero) 12:38, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
References
Sorry, can someone point me to the discussion where it was agreed that "philanthropist" would be taken out? Cassianto Talk 08:42, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
The word "benefactor" appears nowhere in the article despite being frequently used in the sources. The word "philanthropic" is used in a section title. Good writers use synonyms. I also removed unsourced claims that Colton donated money outside of Bristol. I would be interested in reading references that actually say this. (Neither of the two articles cited supported the claim... that doesn't mean it was wrong.) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 08:52, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I am looking forward to seeing evidence of the promised references to Colston's extensive philanthropy outside of Bristol. Apparently, for some reason, this entry formerly cited two articles which did not mention that philanthropy instead of a third which did? Weird. I also found that one of the three references supporting the "nobody knows how much of his capital originally came from slave-trading" said the exact opposite...
From 1680 he became heavily involved in the slave trade, from which he made the bulk of his fortune, and was an active member of the Royal African Company, becoming deputy-governor briefly during 1689–90. At the time of his admission to the Merchant Venturers’ Society in 1683 he was also described as a West Indian merchant. The 1680s were undoubtedly his most lucrative years in business, and according to one account he was said to have owned over 40 ships.
-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
@ SashiRolls: here are the quotes you asked for. From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography website, in the article on Edward Colston by Kenneth Morgan.
His munificence also extended to other parts of the country, and he gave benefactions to churches, hospitals, workhouses, and almshouses in London, Surrey, Devon, and Lancashire. But these did not match the extent of his charitable gifts to Bristol.
A bronze statue of him stands in Colston Avenue, and the philanthropist is also honoured by the city's chief concert venue, the Colston Hall, and various streets that are named after him.
-- DeFacto ( talk). 14:27, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I really don't think some of you have read all the records online or other sources. Colston took commodities to Africa from England, slaves (gold, gems, ivory) from Africa to the Caribbean, his routes back from the Caribbean traded large quantities of sugar. He also had a couple of ships sale to India via Middle East, those ships would drop of slaves to sale in the markets in the middle east, carry on to India, and bring back tea. So please do not say he made the majority of his money in slaves, that would be totally incorrect. Govvy ( talk) 14:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
If he's to be described as "a philanthropist" in the lede, then he must also be described as "a slave trader" since both are equally true and equally significant. "Slave trader" must come first since he was a slave trader before he was a philanthropist, and the money he made from slave trading enable him to give money to charity.
Note: the slave trade was at the time the most lucrative sea trade from Africa. It's where the richest sea merchants made most of their riches.
Michael F 1967 ( talk) 01:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Is this an RS? Slatersteven ( talk) 10:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
In this change the article was apparently fully protected until 11:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC) by El C. So how could this edit have happened. Is The Land an admin? -- DeFacto ( talk). 12:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Could an admin please correct the misattribution of the authorship of the following encyclopedia contribution, please? You can in find it by searching for <ref name=hayton>:
From 1680 he became heavily involved in the slave trade, from which he made the bulk of his fortune, and was an active member of the Royal African Company, becoming deputy-governor briefly during 1689–90.
Given the current context on the page, it is likely we would need to start an RfC to determine how best to fix the current misrepresentation of the source in the lede, but at least we could get the author right, even if we get what the author says wrong. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Done - those seem pretty uncontroverisal to me. The Land ( talk) 19:06, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
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Minor issue 2nd paragraph, repeated word - change: ... "involved in the slave trade as a member of of the Royal African Company"... To: ... "involved in the slave trade as a member of the Royal African Company"... That is to delete the repeated "of" Thanks Crep171166 ( talk) 18:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC) Crep171166 ( talk) 18:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC) Done - thanks for pointing that out The Land ( talk) 19:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)