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According to this article,
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765605805/Disfigured-Spain-fresco-rides-global-fame.html
she is looking into the legal matter of what may be the exploitation of her own work (see the "ship of theseus" reference, below). She's not going after the church for money. The wikipediat article, as written now, paints (ahem) her in a less than flattering light than this article would. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paustin ( talk • contribs) 11:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I do not know if Wikipedia will accept suggestions as to what the messed up painting looks like, but, the figure of Jesus now looks almost identical to Alice the Goon, created by E. C. Segar, that was visualized in the Popeye cartoons. Go to Google.com images and look up Alice the Goon Popeye. Good luck restoring it to it's original image. That would require a real miracle. 204.80.61.133 ( talk) 18:26, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Hundreds of people a day are traveling to Borja to view the new Ecce Homo. Over 18,000 people have signed a petition requesting the modern Ecce Homo not be removed. Many of these visiting supporters are leaving flowers at the home of the amateur restorer. If this attention and popularity persists much longer restoration is likely to become impossible as the Church and the town need the tourist income. For these reasons I think this article should not be deleted at this time. Perhaps it will become a permanet tourist attraction? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.154.171 ( talk) 02:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I removed the AfD message since there was actually no debate going on about deletion and I couldn't find a reason for there to be one. -- Hugo Spinelli ( talk) 08:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
The version by Elías García Martínez isn't what's attracting attention. Cecilia Giménez is the notable artist here. It's definitely too early to say what will be established as the normal term for this artwork, but in due course we should probably rename this article. Either to "Ecce Mono", or replace Elías García Martínez with Cecilia Giménez. Ideas? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm missing information about the context. Was Giménez commissioned by the church to do the restoration (and if so, why did she do such a bad job/why did the church do such a bad job in picking a restorationist?) or did she act on her own initiative in an honest attempt to "help"? How did the church react after they knew about the result? When exactly did all this happen (the article only states the date of the rising internet phenomenon, but gives no dates for the actual events)? etc. -- ::Slomox:: >< 15:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure mere coincidences are not notable enough to go into this article... However this incident is quite reminiscent of what happened to the painting in the movie Bean, and the theme to the Mr. Bean TV show started by singing "Ecce homo qui est faba". 71.82.152.28 11:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.152.28 ( talk)
This article currently gives no date when the Ecco Homo was painted in the church. So I googled to find the year Martinez painted the fresco and came up with 2 possible answers. The Guardian says the work dates from the 19th century. [1] Fox News gives the year as 1930. [2] What should finally be written in the article's History section regarding this important detail? - Gilliam ( talk) 10:57, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Hello, hello. User:Walter Görlitz removed my link to Vandalism of art from Ecce Homo (Elías García Martínez). I thought it was very similar to the topic because it is described like this: "The object is usually exhibited in public, becomes damaged as a result of the act, and remains in place right after the act. This may distinguish it from art destruction and iconoclasm, where it may be wholly destroyed and removed, and art theft, or looting." I put it into "see also" because the act was not necessarily intentional vandalism, which I do not want to claim it was.-- Razionale ( talk) 18:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
I also considered Accidental damage of art but thought this was less related. She knew it was art and the examples are very different. -- Razionale ( talk) 18:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC) Perhaps we can just add both?-- Razionale ( talk) 18:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Can this be put under the category "2012 works" or "2012 paintings", because, face it, it might as well be a whole new painting. It looks like something you would find at MoMA, or the Tate Modern. 50.36.81.177 ( talk) 21:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter that much whether we include the phrase, but from the source I find: "such is the furor over the mishap that Guardian art critic Jonathan Jones suggested today, tongue firmly in cheek, that Borja's amateur art restorer be hired by other localities with worthy artworks that needed some international attention. It has to be mentioned, however, that the updated monkey-like Christ has a freakish new power all its own, and may be its own kind of metaphor for modern man. "
The suggestion that Cecilia be employed to restore other art works is indeed ironic. The more serious comments on interpretation of the Ecce Mono are not. I'll leave it a day or two and, if there are no more comments, remove the phrase from its present inappropriate location. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 16:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I see you changed a reference from "muscular atrophy" to "muscular dystrophy". I also see you are an MD so I'll defer doing the research myself, but the source says "muscular atrophy". And again, I'll defer doing research, but Wikipedia has separate articles for the two. Is it really proper to change atrophy to dystrophy when the source says atrophy? Marteau ( talk) 08:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
What creationist views of the Church? Since I am Catholic, and I believe in Theistic Evolution as well as the Big Bang Theory and indeed, to the best of my knowledge, so have the last few Popes, I would like to know why this is included in the article. I know very few Catholics that would agree with the Fundamentalist Protestant Views of creation, and creationism certainly isn't the teaching of the Church, so why is there nothing in this article that points this out? Adam ( talk) 04:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
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This article should include a picture of the botched restoration results. It's relevant to the notoriety of the painting. 64.114.25.147 ( talk) 01:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
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After a recent change we have the clunky title of "Conservation-restoration of Ecce Homo by Elías García Martínez". It strikes me as obviously unsatisfactory, not used by any sources as far as I know, and I doubt if it's the only "Ecce Homo" produced by this artist. I suggest that we follow the Spanish Wikipedia and rename to "Ecce Homo of Borja". Richard Keatinge ( talk) 10:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
@ Richard Keatinge: @ RichardMcCoy: @ Anastan: @ Tigraan: @ Walter Görlitz:: Elías García Martínez is a Spanish name. García is the first surname and Martínez is the second. People is usually formally called by their first surname. When it is a very common one, the second may be used: Pablo Ruiz Picasso is known as Picasso, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero is just Zapatero. In this case, both surnames are very common. The original painter would be Mr García Martínez or the full name would be used (Elías is not so common). In this case, this page would be Ecce Homo (García Martínez and Giménez). However almost nobody who knows about this image would know the surnames of any of the painters. So, I suggest that the page is moved to Ecce Homo (Borja). Unfortunately I just created it as a redirect, so deleting the redirect would be needed. Do you agree? -- Error ( talk) 14:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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Elias Garcia Martinez's "Ecce Homo" *was* a fresco painting, it has been destroyed. What exists in its place is an amateur painting that bares no resemblance at all to his style, intent, or capabilities and is its own work, mockingly known as "Ecce Mono." Artists tend to take their names off of work when it is edited or defiled to the point that it doesn't represent their intent anymore. 173.70.187.220 ( talk) 04:26, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Unless somebody can produce evidence the fresco is capable of being resorted to the original, the original fresco should be considered GONE. Hence, the past tense should be used to refer to the artwork in the opening, especially given the photo of the original you page 'maintainers' have plastered up there in the opening on the right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walter Görlitz ( talk • contribs) 00:19, 10 September 2020 (UTC) I'm not sure why there is debate about this — you don't need a wrecking ball to destroy a fresco, you just need sharpie and a key to the church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.24.24.150 ( talk) 23:39, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
I think the IP editor, despite their ignorance of Wikipedia process, makes a good point. Anyone with working eyes can see that the original painting is unrecognizable in the current one. It'd be one thing if this was a minor touchup, but the entire nature of the painting has been changed . If I drew a mustache on the Mona Lisa, it wouldn't be the same work, but transformed instead (though maybe a philosophical issue to some).
Sources also seem to agree: The NYT and The Guardian refer to it as "ruined". The Independent outright uses the verb "destroys". Observer describes it as "smeared beyond recognition". Forbes even calls it "the Giménez Jesus". I would support using the past tense to refer to Martínez's original, and the present tense to the thing that's currently inside the church. Opencooper ( talk) 04:00, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
In 2016 a painting surfaced that seems to be the original used as reference by Martínez when painting the fresco.
This is relevant and interesting. I think it should be mentioned and ideally shown in this article. I'm hesitant to go wading in and adding a section without more research, and I haven't found a non-copyrighted image of the original painting.
Stay ( talk) 19:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved( closed by non-admin page mover) Megan☺️ Talk to the monster 10:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Ecce Homo (Martínez and Giménez, Borja) → Ecce Homo (Martínez and Giménez) – I can't see why this needs two disambiguation methods, unless Giménez damaged another Martínez' Ecce Homo at another location. © Tbhotch ™ 23:27, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
you forgot to add padlocks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.138.19.236 ( talk) 01:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
So, as of 2024, has the thoroughly botched "restoration" still not been repaired, possibly because the ruined version is such a huge tourist draw? This seems like an insult to the original artist, however "insignificant" he may be. At any rate, it might be nice if the article concluded with something like, "As of the present day, the painting remains in its botched state." with a mention of any plans to address the problem, if there are any, so we know its current status, until such time as it IS repaired. 2601:545:8201:6290:95A6:8845:703D:169F ( talk) 19:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
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According to this article,
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765605805/Disfigured-Spain-fresco-rides-global-fame.html
she is looking into the legal matter of what may be the exploitation of her own work (see the "ship of theseus" reference, below). She's not going after the church for money. The wikipediat article, as written now, paints (ahem) her in a less than flattering light than this article would. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paustin ( talk • contribs) 11:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I do not know if Wikipedia will accept suggestions as to what the messed up painting looks like, but, the figure of Jesus now looks almost identical to Alice the Goon, created by E. C. Segar, that was visualized in the Popeye cartoons. Go to Google.com images and look up Alice the Goon Popeye. Good luck restoring it to it's original image. That would require a real miracle. 204.80.61.133 ( talk) 18:26, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Hundreds of people a day are traveling to Borja to view the new Ecce Homo. Over 18,000 people have signed a petition requesting the modern Ecce Homo not be removed. Many of these visiting supporters are leaving flowers at the home of the amateur restorer. If this attention and popularity persists much longer restoration is likely to become impossible as the Church and the town need the tourist income. For these reasons I think this article should not be deleted at this time. Perhaps it will become a permanet tourist attraction? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.154.171 ( talk) 02:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I removed the AfD message since there was actually no debate going on about deletion and I couldn't find a reason for there to be one. -- Hugo Spinelli ( talk) 08:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
The version by Elías García Martínez isn't what's attracting attention. Cecilia Giménez is the notable artist here. It's definitely too early to say what will be established as the normal term for this artwork, but in due course we should probably rename this article. Either to "Ecce Mono", or replace Elías García Martínez with Cecilia Giménez. Ideas? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm missing information about the context. Was Giménez commissioned by the church to do the restoration (and if so, why did she do such a bad job/why did the church do such a bad job in picking a restorationist?) or did she act on her own initiative in an honest attempt to "help"? How did the church react after they knew about the result? When exactly did all this happen (the article only states the date of the rising internet phenomenon, but gives no dates for the actual events)? etc. -- ::Slomox:: >< 15:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure mere coincidences are not notable enough to go into this article... However this incident is quite reminiscent of what happened to the painting in the movie Bean, and the theme to the Mr. Bean TV show started by singing "Ecce homo qui est faba". 71.82.152.28 11:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.152.28 ( talk)
This article currently gives no date when the Ecco Homo was painted in the church. So I googled to find the year Martinez painted the fresco and came up with 2 possible answers. The Guardian says the work dates from the 19th century. [1] Fox News gives the year as 1930. [2] What should finally be written in the article's History section regarding this important detail? - Gilliam ( talk) 10:57, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Hello, hello. User:Walter Görlitz removed my link to Vandalism of art from Ecce Homo (Elías García Martínez). I thought it was very similar to the topic because it is described like this: "The object is usually exhibited in public, becomes damaged as a result of the act, and remains in place right after the act. This may distinguish it from art destruction and iconoclasm, where it may be wholly destroyed and removed, and art theft, or looting." I put it into "see also" because the act was not necessarily intentional vandalism, which I do not want to claim it was.-- Razionale ( talk) 18:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
I also considered Accidental damage of art but thought this was less related. She knew it was art and the examples are very different. -- Razionale ( talk) 18:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC) Perhaps we can just add both?-- Razionale ( talk) 18:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Can this be put under the category "2012 works" or "2012 paintings", because, face it, it might as well be a whole new painting. It looks like something you would find at MoMA, or the Tate Modern. 50.36.81.177 ( talk) 21:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter that much whether we include the phrase, but from the source I find: "such is the furor over the mishap that Guardian art critic Jonathan Jones suggested today, tongue firmly in cheek, that Borja's amateur art restorer be hired by other localities with worthy artworks that needed some international attention. It has to be mentioned, however, that the updated monkey-like Christ has a freakish new power all its own, and may be its own kind of metaphor for modern man. "
The suggestion that Cecilia be employed to restore other art works is indeed ironic. The more serious comments on interpretation of the Ecce Mono are not. I'll leave it a day or two and, if there are no more comments, remove the phrase from its present inappropriate location. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 16:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I see you changed a reference from "muscular atrophy" to "muscular dystrophy". I also see you are an MD so I'll defer doing the research myself, but the source says "muscular atrophy". And again, I'll defer doing research, but Wikipedia has separate articles for the two. Is it really proper to change atrophy to dystrophy when the source says atrophy? Marteau ( talk) 08:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
What creationist views of the Church? Since I am Catholic, and I believe in Theistic Evolution as well as the Big Bang Theory and indeed, to the best of my knowledge, so have the last few Popes, I would like to know why this is included in the article. I know very few Catholics that would agree with the Fundamentalist Protestant Views of creation, and creationism certainly isn't the teaching of the Church, so why is there nothing in this article that points this out? Adam ( talk) 04:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Ecce Homo (Elías García Martínez) which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
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This article should include a picture of the botched restoration results. It's relevant to the notoriety of the painting. 64.114.25.147 ( talk) 01:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
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After a recent change we have the clunky title of "Conservation-restoration of Ecce Homo by Elías García Martínez". It strikes me as obviously unsatisfactory, not used by any sources as far as I know, and I doubt if it's the only "Ecce Homo" produced by this artist. I suggest that we follow the Spanish Wikipedia and rename to "Ecce Homo of Borja". Richard Keatinge ( talk) 10:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
@ Richard Keatinge: @ RichardMcCoy: @ Anastan: @ Tigraan: @ Walter Görlitz:: Elías García Martínez is a Spanish name. García is the first surname and Martínez is the second. People is usually formally called by their first surname. When it is a very common one, the second may be used: Pablo Ruiz Picasso is known as Picasso, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero is just Zapatero. In this case, both surnames are very common. The original painter would be Mr García Martínez or the full name would be used (Elías is not so common). In this case, this page would be Ecce Homo (García Martínez and Giménez). However almost nobody who knows about this image would know the surnames of any of the painters. So, I suggest that the page is moved to Ecce Homo (Borja). Unfortunately I just created it as a redirect, so deleting the redirect would be needed. Do you agree? -- Error ( talk) 14:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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Elias Garcia Martinez's "Ecce Homo" *was* a fresco painting, it has been destroyed. What exists in its place is an amateur painting that bares no resemblance at all to his style, intent, or capabilities and is its own work, mockingly known as "Ecce Mono." Artists tend to take their names off of work when it is edited or defiled to the point that it doesn't represent their intent anymore. 173.70.187.220 ( talk) 04:26, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Unless somebody can produce evidence the fresco is capable of being resorted to the original, the original fresco should be considered GONE. Hence, the past tense should be used to refer to the artwork in the opening, especially given the photo of the original you page 'maintainers' have plastered up there in the opening on the right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walter Görlitz ( talk • contribs) 00:19, 10 September 2020 (UTC) I'm not sure why there is debate about this — you don't need a wrecking ball to destroy a fresco, you just need sharpie and a key to the church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.24.24.150 ( talk) 23:39, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
I think the IP editor, despite their ignorance of Wikipedia process, makes a good point. Anyone with working eyes can see that the original painting is unrecognizable in the current one. It'd be one thing if this was a minor touchup, but the entire nature of the painting has been changed . If I drew a mustache on the Mona Lisa, it wouldn't be the same work, but transformed instead (though maybe a philosophical issue to some).
Sources also seem to agree: The NYT and The Guardian refer to it as "ruined". The Independent outright uses the verb "destroys". Observer describes it as "smeared beyond recognition". Forbes even calls it "the Giménez Jesus". I would support using the past tense to refer to Martínez's original, and the present tense to the thing that's currently inside the church. Opencooper ( talk) 04:00, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
In 2016 a painting surfaced that seems to be the original used as reference by Martínez when painting the fresco.
This is relevant and interesting. I think it should be mentioned and ideally shown in this article. I'm hesitant to go wading in and adding a section without more research, and I haven't found a non-copyrighted image of the original painting.
Stay ( talk) 19:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved( closed by non-admin page mover) Megan☺️ Talk to the monster 10:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Ecce Homo (Martínez and Giménez, Borja) → Ecce Homo (Martínez and Giménez) – I can't see why this needs two disambiguation methods, unless Giménez damaged another Martínez' Ecce Homo at another location. © Tbhotch ™ 23:27, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
you forgot to add padlocks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.138.19.236 ( talk) 01:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
So, as of 2024, has the thoroughly botched "restoration" still not been repaired, possibly because the ruined version is such a huge tourist draw? This seems like an insult to the original artist, however "insignificant" he may be. At any rate, it might be nice if the article concluded with something like, "As of the present day, the painting remains in its botched state." with a mention of any plans to address the problem, if there are any, so we know its current status, until such time as it IS repaired. 2601:545:8201:6290:95A6:8845:703D:169F ( talk) 19:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)