![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The disputed section on Spiritual Ebionites was placed on Talk:Ebionites/Neo-Ebionite by the RFC editor. The talk sections relevant to the dispute have been moved to the same page. An abstract of the resolution of the dispute is shown below. Ovadyah 20:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Alecmconroy, let's bring this issue to closure before we fill another talk page. The spiritual ebionite folks have had plenty of opportunity to make their case for notability, and you have stated repeatedly that they don't meet Wiki's requirements. Despite Michael's best editorial efforts to find a compromise, the notability problem remains. I think we should move the current abstract on the spiritual ebionites to the second talk page along with all the related talk sections. Let them create a new page per Michael's suggestion, and if they survive the VfD process, they can link back to this article. Michael and I can work together to clean up the remaining material. What do you think? Ovadyah 04:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom OvadYah and Alecmconroy,
Its interesting the talk page was edited as well but then if it remained as was any non biased reasonable person would see the Spiritual Ebionite section was removed buy a selfserving POV after when each notibility issue you brought up was indeed shown to exist and you then would shift to another to support your point of view.
The story of real Ebionites were erased from history buy simular POV'S as those that dominate this artical today. The Spirit of Constantines correctors are alive in well. The modern Ebionite movement potrayed in the Wikipedia artical is mearly a Jehovah's witnesses verson of the Jews for Jesus movement. NazireneMystic 23:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
As it stands now very little of the Ebionite artical is relevant to Ebionites. I do not see how any of my post or thoes of like minded people discouraged discussion. On the contrary we sparked discussion but removing matrial different then the articals offical POV indeed discourages discussion. 205.188.116.198 02:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
OvadYah,Maybe you are unaware of wiki's AOL problems? If you are go read up on it. The funny thing about this is in the future when buried staches of Ebionite scriptures are found YOU will not allow them in your ebionite artical because it will seem like they come from a "malicious self-serving POV" 205.188.116.198 03:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I won't be responding to individual posts from now on regarding the RFC. I consider the matter to be closed. I will periodically sweep comments regarding the spiritual ebionites and the RFC process to the Neo-Ebionites page under "Further Comments". Thanks for participating. Ovadyah 14:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
How can the matter be closed! nothing was resolved and that is why what was on the talk page was archived away. if it remained here the choice to keep the modern ebionites in the artical and reject the spiritual ebionite would be laughable to anyone reading it. NazireneMystic 18:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah: you seem to have a POV that your Ebionite Jewish Community is notable, contrary to popular opinion amongst the editors here. I looked at the 'evidence' you have gathered to support your group's claim of notability and find them less compelling than the other groups you are so eager to delete mention of. I consider your position to be self serving and request that senior editors disallow Ovadyah from reinserting this unwarranted Wiki promotion of his group. Aliothrick 15:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom Rick, I have found, but yet to post in writings atributed to Ebionites that Peter discribes the oil used for anointing and he states it is pressed from the wood of the tree of life so this group that claims to be Ebionite and believes the anointing comes from actual literal oil must think they possess the actual tree of life in the garden of eden. If this is the case and they can show this tree it would be notible indeed. Thier point of view while shared by many is contary to the Ebionite view and this is one quote thats soon to surface in the artical, if need be.NazireneMystic 20:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC) NazireneMystic 20:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom OvadYah, Its not my intention to claim a religous belief is obsurd but to show by quoting the sources its obsurd to think of them as anything more to do with the notible Ebionites then a shared name. I for one believe all religions slowly life after life contribute to the growth of souls and are needed. If the Ebionite matieral makes the modern ebionite movement seem different which should go? Writings and witnesses of thier time or the new movement? without the Ebionites of the first few centuries to take a pedigree from the modern jewish Ebionite movement would not be notible at all period. So if these writings have nothing to do with them and thoes that wrote them were the notible Ebionties who the heck is this new group? NazireneMystic 20:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC) Stop deleting portions of the article without concensus or I will have you blocked. There are procedures that need to be followed on Wiki to resolve disputes. Please follow them. I have created a new section to facilitate discussion. Ovadyah 16:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
OvadYah,It seems the senior editors were quite biased. To accomadate the modern Ebionites hardly any quotes from earlier witnesses can even be listed in the artical. Only a selective few that do not counterdict the new verson of Ebionites mentioned on the artical. If large amounts of quotes regarding Ebionites and quotes from thier Gospel have to give way to accomadate this new movement then maybe the best attempts from these editors were failures?17:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
In the Ebionite artical it is said " The most complete of these comes from Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote his "Panarion" in the fourth century, denouncing 80 heretical sects, among them the Ebionites, described in Panarion 30. In addition to quotations from their gospels, there are also general descriptions of their ideas and point of view."
Untill now hardly any of the Panarion is quoted in fear that, "general descriptions of their ideas and point of view." Might be contrary to the modern POV the artical takes regarding modern Ebionites.
I went ahead and NPVOED the artical by qouting a few things formerly surpressed.
I have hummored you and have not quoted from the Clement writings and will instead stick to what you say is" to describe ancient Ebionites."
I do find this interesting that the editors claim you need scholarly support but text such as the Clement writings have just that and then you dispite the scholarly concensus. This sounds like stupendous first hand rearch! Isee your main funtion is to surpress many scholars and ealry witnesses to support a very narrow point of view you think is true but as you have reminded me" As Alec mentioned, Wikipedia's function is to report, not to decide what is truth. "
You may have misunderstud the earlier quotes regarding the law becuase the law they were justified in is the law when they thought eating meat was abominable. there is not historic reference to sugest the Ebionite didnt follow a spiritualized Esseneic view of the law but thses anti flesh quotes supports just that. To claim they upheld the literal law of torah like is unfounded.
What makes Ebionites notible is that they claim to be the first direct followers of Yeshua. Since Modern Ebionites mentioned in this artical clearly do not hold to these Ideas I do not see how thier mention in the artical is relevent.
They only took a name to give them Pedigree. They could be notable as calling themselves Modern Ebionite jewish communities and maybe they can start an "Modern Ebionite" artical or something of that nature but to surpress the Reporting of most evidence atributed to Ebionites in order to support someones verson of what a true Ebionite is doesnt sound very Wikipedia to me NazireneMystic 20:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
OvadYah, You seem to be tring to determining the truth here instead of reporting to give POV to atrical. such things are useful for blogging but have no place in wikipedia. NazireneMystic 19:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It is known the Essene thought of themselves as extremely Torah observent but it is well known they did not eat flesh or have anything to do with temple ritual so thier understanding of the law was one of spirit and not the literal word. If you place the reporting together you do not come up with counterdictions but the nature of the law they were justified by. When the gentile church complained the Ebionite said they needed to follow the law there is no reason to assume it was literal written rituals some speculate they followed.
If you only go by reportings as is what wikipedia is susposted to do and not deside truth its clear the greeks were objecting to following the spiritual law. anything else is POV but I dont mind even some point of view but not to the point were most of what is known can not be reported to support the verson of what some think is a true Ebionite. 205.188.116.198 20:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I, Loremaster, one of the main contributors to the Ebionites article, created the Modern Ebionites section and wrote its content, in which I only mentioned the Ebionite Jewish Community since I wasn't aware of any other group at the time. If there are other modern Ebionite groups that meet a degree of notability that Wikipedia considers sufficient I have no problem with them being mentioned in this section. -- Loremaster 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom Loremaster, I support the spiritual Ebionites. I am not Allan Cronshaw. My main goal here is to NPOV this artical. I understand you feel it was already NPOVED but the modern Ebionite section without a spititual counterpart to counter balance it made this artical bias against the historical Ebionites. In time quoting from writings scholars support as being pro Ebionite would make that more clear.Im fine with the artical as it is now with the modern Ebionite community section taken down. I dont believe anyone from the spiritual Ebionites wanted to use wikipedia as a promotion thing or soap box but rather didnt want Ebionites misrepresented. I feel its about as NPOV now as can be expected NazireneMystic 00:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Greetings Loremaster. Welcome to the party. The article looks much better now. I think you did the right thing by removing all the Modern Ebionites material. I would have removed the disputed EJC section of the article to this section of the talk page first, but that's ok. I'm looking forward to peer review. ;-) Ovadyah 12:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I created a new section so we don't mix up the discussions of ancient and modern Ebionites. You are off to a good start, NM. Keep in mind that some of what you just quoted from Epiphaneus directly contradicts the earlier writings of Hippolytus on Ebionite's obedience to the Law, so it's fair to say this material is less certain. Ovadyah 19:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
You cant mix up discussions about Modern and ancient Ebionites unless you do something like try to include them in the same artical. lol
The Ebionites are notible because of thier place in history and the convinant eradication of them. Ebionites are not the same as The modern jewish Ebionite movement so to avoid confussion lets remove them from the artical and if they are notible then thier Modern Jewish Ebionite community artical stand on its own I do agree thoe that its important to not confuss the Ebionites and the modern jewish communities calling themselves Ebionites. NazireneMystic 21:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
If they are can not pass the extreme notibilty standards the Spiritual Ebionites were held to the the only reason to include them is to promote your POINT OF VIEW. NazireneMystic 23:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The spiritual Ebionite section was never resolved!
Considering what I have only begone to pull up short quotes from the writings the Ebionite artical already says has scholary support elimenating the spiritual Ebionites who are in agreement with them but keeping the modern Ebionite section in the artical that seem to hold to one or two little fragments of that is considered Ebionite to support thier point of view and discard the rest is unfounded.
Is it a notability issue? We covered thoes bases and then we were archived to pretend the case was resolved. The space shuttle program is notible but guess what? Its not in the Ebionite artical because its not relevent to the "Ebionites" and after all thats what this artical is about. Its not about modern ebionites or space shuttles. actualy the modern Ebionite section cast a very biased POV toward the entire artical, Historical witnesses, and writings that scholars support as Ebionite in origin.
If the Ebionite artical is going to include thoes today that claim to be ebionites and disregard the rest of the artical that has also been deemed Ebionite related how can you then not include a group that is in agreement with them? Ive noticed the Essene artical has groups mentioned that are no more notible then Allan Cronshaw's group. but they are not archived for not being notible. Guess I will have to pull up more stuff from the Ebionite related writings untill the artical just looks plain silly with the modern section in it. NazireneMystic 18:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank-you Loremaster for resolving what is the greatest concern of many of us in regards to Ebionites being misrepresented by the content of the Modern Ebionite section. In reading your comments regarding the context of the original inclusion of this section I understand why it was done. Ebionites of the Gnostic pursuasion see being an Ebionite as a state of mind that is poor to the ways of this world. From this perspective a worldly Jewish sect does not represent a break from the ways of this world, and in fact stands for the opposite. Their physical worship makes them "rich ones" to the ways of the world and 'poor ones' to the ways of the spirit. As most people today that associate themselves as being Ebionites are sympathetic to the Gnostic position I am sure that the removal of the EJC section will temper discussion and allow all editors to work to make the article what it should be. Aliothrick 05:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia Community:
If I may, I'd like to add my perspective to the discussion regarding "Ebionite" and, by way of this current discussion, give my assessment about the removal of the "Talmidi" page about a year ago.
I am a scholar in religious studies and I specialize in comparing ancient and modern religions, with emphasis on Jewish, Jewish Christian and Christian mystical/gnostic ideas and movements. Researchers do not assess the value of an idea, movement or community with regard to whether it is "notable." That is a difficult word to define and unhelpful for research. If an idea, movement or community exists, whether ancient or modern, and has produced or produces literature and has an audience, it is a valid topic for academic attention.
I personally find it unhelpful for research for others who may have opinions on a topic or who may disagree about the content of others' religious beliefs, but who are not researchers in this field (and thus cannot imagine the benefit of a variety of information to academics) to determine the validity of a topic and to control access to it (in this case, for general information on the topic of "Ebionite" through Wikipedia now, and a year ago on the topic of "Talmidi"). I used Wikipedia for both topics (Ebionite and Talmidi) to contact members of these communities for research purposes. By using "notable" as the defining characteristic for inclusion, but failing to define exactly what "notable" means, indicates that a "neutral point of view" has not been preserved in the discussion.
My request is that the Ebionite page be edited to include all the varieities of Ebionitism that are being developed in the modern era, and that the Talmidi page be restored for the same reason.
Warmly, Helen C. Harrison PhD Candidate University of California Riverside
Shalom Alecmonroy, does relevence to the artical have anything to do with weather its in an artical? If it even compairs to notibility then the Modern neo ebionites supported by the Talmidim biased OvadYah is about as relevent to an Ebionite artical as tring to add a Talmidim link to wiki's artical on "Sabbatai Zevi" that he was enlightened by following the literal letter of the law, or pouring oil on his head. On that note considering the nature of the law the writings that give Ebionite prospective show, an internal link to the Sabbatai Zevi is much more notible in general and far more revevent to the law the Ebionites followed then the links now provided. The Talmidim wiki Editor with a POV so far holds the spiritual Ebionites to the same contempt as his brothern did to Sabbatai Zevi. The Ebionites did not live apart from the Jews for being literaly following the surface text of any book, In fact they wrote the scriptures many try to use against them today. NazireneMystic 19:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom OvadaYah,Any true Ebionite would be ,as you call it, Excommunicated from that group, its truly a blessing.We dont Loathe the misinformed man and could care less about his community if he wasnt listed in the past in Ebionite artical when he only has the name Ebionite in common with the Notible Ebionites of the past and you kept deleting any mention of the spiritual Ebionites as just a POV. That in itself is a very strong anti-Ebionite point of view.As far as loathing goes it seems your group has written almost a page of its site about Allan Cronshaw's Little group that you say is not notable. Just follow the link and scroll down till you see the heading condeming gnostism,click on the heading. The writer seems to not be discerning enough to understand what it is Simon Magnus was promoting and lumps all spiritual concepts into Gnostism. [ Ovadyas group. That alone is worth taking note about. Anyway as I said before, a few times now, in the end, if the modern Jewish community thing is part of the Ebionite Artical and the spiritual Ebionites are not included you will have to surpress almost all the writings in the artical that are currently thought to be NPOV, or deside what select few quote are offical truth and not pov in order keep it from looking flat out ignorant. I will keep quoting from the writings and it will become hard to explain how a susposed NPOV would want to surpress writings that show the notable Ebionite's point of view just to make the artical's featured group seem somewhat relevent to the artical. This artical will be the laughing stock of Wikipedia NazireneMystic 05:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
My point is the same as I started with. I want to see the artical NPOVED. When I first ran across this artical and saw its one sidedness and on the talk page you were deleting edits to the artical on diet even when editors backed thier position the artical was a totaal wreck and mainly an Ad for your group. I felt its my duty to counter that misinformation which happened but you fought to keep the artical very biased. The reason first given for the RFC was only to NPOV the spiritual Ebionite section. Then the notibility issue was brought up and even thoe we adressed the issues reality didnt matter to the RFC and we were archived. once it was asked that your Group be held to the same crazy standard thats when the your group was taken down, both were given religous stubs and the press to peer review was started. If you motives were as clear from the start as they are now your POV would had been harder to empose. Your extreme support of that religous group lead you to say crazy things to attack us. I have show them to be very misleading. I never hid that im part of allans group and even had the RFC ask me to let him join the group to check it out and the entire time only want the artical NPOVED. With given the notibiliy issue and artical content early witnesses and many modern scholars would have to be surpressed to include your group without ours. From early on we said It would be great if no groups were memtioned. 152.163.101.14 17:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am confussed by the above statment. How long have you known Allan Cronshaw and Mr. Phillips? 152.163.101.14 17:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Shalom Loremaster,
This is a big thing to ask that I assume good faith regarding OvadYah. This editor has been quite deceptive during this enite debate. First he was attempting to pass as a NPOV a few archived pages ago but I do not believe this can any longer be hid. Look at the exchange that took place right before you asked me to assume "good faith" were he states:
"I have never heard of Shemayah Phillips claiming for himself more than the title of Paqid, which is basically a secretary or clerk. By contrast, the claims of your leader are exceedingly pretentious, and he was also excommunicated -- from the Ebionite Jewish Community. I guess that's why you folks loathe Shemayah so much huh?
Given this statment what would you understand it to mean? I went to his site and searched for the term. it can be found by going to the FAQpage and look for the heading "how are Ebionites governed?" Paqid it says the term is irrelevent and it realy means "President" not only that but this office of President can be handed down to sucsessors like a Monarchy. This offices makes him the desider of all things Ebionite[in his little world]. This sounds like a type of priory of Sion situation given Yeshua said to not even call another man teacher but all should be taught by the christ I.E. "Anointing",which by the way has nothing to do with oil being poured on your head. In the above statment he tries to minumize this and then call Allan my "leader". All I can say is ive been in Allans fourms for over 3 years and hes never ordered anyone to do anything. Then he says Allan was Excommunicated or some nonsence like that. Wouldnt you have to be converted before your excommunicated? If the EC will tell you of "Ebionites proper" if asked regarding someones standing as thier President says at his site then they must have records of the rituals practised at converson like circumsision. I would LOVE to see reconds of that converson. This editor is relating the joining of a online fourm to being converted to thier religion.If you are kicked off the fourm your"Excommunicated". In that sence one of the wikipedia Editors is now a member in autoplasty from our group because one joined and then left. read my talk page and see the person that asked to join, he joinded shortly afterward he asked me to accept him to the fourm and then he left in a few days. If you message him and ask I dought he thinks he ever converted and accepted Allan as a "Leader" I dought he would think he did.LOL However this is the type foolishness directed as us im to take with good faith.
I did assume good faith when I called him ignorant because if these things were knowingly done it would be diobolical.NazireneMystic 22:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC) NazireneMystic 18:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
How is exposing a deceptful attack spewing bile? If I didnt adress what you say we would be ran over as fast as the early attempts from others to include NPOV statments in the Ebionite artical. 152.163.101.14 17:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Shalom, I understand some people were wondering why the talk page suddenly became archived and one editor said it was to remove person attacks off the talk page but in reallity it was because I posted the above comment in Loremaster's talk page. Once it was clear I was indeed presuming good faith and the deceptive nature of some editors was shown Loremaster desided to archive the issue away. NazireneMystic 18:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC) OvadYah's extreme POV!, OvadYah I have found some statements of yours quite telling. This is taken from your talk page "The books of Prof. Hyam Maccoby are considered to be foundational reading for Ebionites." and you say you dont promote the EC group?? Since you have already claimed out of ignorance on these talk pages that the witnesses stating the Ebionite didnt eat meat and blasphemed much of the law saying""christ has revevled this to me""... counterdicted earlier claims and now you even add from your discussion page .... "The EC does not think the Gospel of the Hebrews or the Clementine literature provide any more reliable insights into the ancient Ebionites than the New Testament. The pseudo-Clementines are heavily overlayed with gnostic stuff from later centuries. There is a core document in there somewhere of the Kerygmata Petrou, but it's hard to reconstruct it. That makes it easy for someone to come along and just pick and choose what they want. I think the Gospel of the Ebionites was probably written in Rome by Theodotus the Cobbler, but I can't prove it. His group had a very similar low christology to the Ebionites, but they were Gentiles and probably didn't follow Jewish law." This seems like stupendous first hand research!!!! Tell me since you think Gnostic belief means to think there is more then one God how are these writings in your terms Gnostic?you realy dont know what Ebionites are or what Gnostic meant to thoes that coined the term. High five to you! So let me get this right, in order for your EC group to be featured in the artical without a proper spiritual counterpart in Allan Cronshaw's group Wikipedia must toss aside most all shcolars, most all Ebionite related Scriptues, most all Historical Witnesses, and hold Your surpreme Leader the great speaker of truth and desider of what is Ebionite just so your group will seem some what relevent to the artical instead of reporting as Alchem has said Wikipedia is susposed to do? Listen up Wikipedia Editors, Like I have now Many times said allowing this ignorance to stand as susposed NPOV will make you look Ignorant in the long run. I can provide early sources that state Jesus was adopted at baptism which of course means IN THE EC's point of view that someone poured oil on his head or as we contend:"(Origen, quoted by Schliemann). Yeshua/Jesus, they asserted, "was justified by fulfilling the Law. He was the Christ of God, since not one of the rest of mankind had observed the Law completely. Had any one else fulfilled the commandments of the Law, he would have been the Christ." Hence "when Ebionites thus fulfill the law, they are able to become Christs, for they assert that our Lord Himself was a man in like sense with all humanity." (Hippolytus, Refut. Omn. Haer. vii. 34). WE deal with these types of fragmented points of view every day weather it be Jewish, Christian, muslim, newage, old age, humanist..... the same ignorance still stands today as it did in Yeshua's time, as it should be, so you might seek truth within yourself and stop following manmade doctorines. Good luck and kind regards with your Peer Review Party NazireneMystic 07:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
08:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC) BTW,Hyam Maccoby Was A Talimid scholar, ask the next Talimid rabbi you meet what they think of jesus and you will see the filter he was using, hardly a NPOV but this is the person that invented the EC'S religion. NazireneMystic
The following text was previously a section in the article:
In 1985, Shemayah Phillips founded a movement that would eventually grow into the online Ebionite Jewish Community by 1995. This movement claims to be the legitimate descendant in teaching and practice of the original Ebionites.
The Ebionite Jewish Community promotes Yahwism, the recognition of Jesus as a Jewish prophet (rather than as a Messiah as he is portrayed in Christian writing), and claims that Christianity is not a biblically-based religion. Ebionites actively campaign against missionary work done by Christian groups, and encourages a return to a Tanakh-reliant approach to Judaism amongst messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians, Gentile Christians and others.
Modern Ebionites are not gnostic, or dualist, but strictly monotheistic. Ebionites believe that monotheism disallows a belief in a " Satan" that competes with God. Modern Ebionitism emphasizes the social justice aspect of the Tanakh, and Yahwism as a socio-economic as well as a religious idea. They also reject membership for those involved in occupations deemed to be "exploitive."
Loremaster, I moved the original Modern Ebionites section to the talk page just to keep things consistent. Some scholars that have published research on the Ebionites are familiar with the EJC, and I want to bring this point up during peer review. Ovadyah 23:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
A CRITICAL INVESTIGATION OF EPIPHANIUS' KNOWLEDGE OF THE EBIONITES: A TRANSLATION AND CRITICAL DISCUSSION OF 'PANARION' 30.* GLENN ALAN KOCH, /University of Pennsylvania/ < http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/query.cgi?field_1=lname&value_1=KOCH&field_2=fname&value_2=GLENN%20ALAN&advanced=1> Date: 1976 Ovadyah 15:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there a Consensus among Scholars supporting that artical that point of view? Do living Scholars out over ride the dead? NazireneMystic 21:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Historicly ALL references to the Ebionites claimed they accepted him as Messiah but this new group being promoted does not claim he was. In this section they try to dance around this and say not as potrayed in christian writing but indeed they do not accept him as a Messiah in any way. On the sites FAQ section Was Jesus Messiah its clear Jesus is potrayed as a failed Messiah. This section is not relevent to the Ebionite artical in any way. Read the FAQ it is clear they are not only sayings he was not Messiah as the christians potray him but that he plain wasnt and failed, In fact they call Jesus Messianic . Guess they think Jesus thought a messiah was comming. They proudly pronounce thier belief in Jesus's failed attempt. NazireneMystic 13:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Although you may be right, is James Tabor right or wrong when he says that ancient Ebionites held the following view:
-- Loremaster 14:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting question, this group calls spiritual concepts such as reincarnation, mystic visions, inner kingdoms..."Gnostic stuff" from the greeks.The above statment can not mean a literal kingdom on this earth as the two Messiahs are ruling in gods kingdom with the prophet after his rejection and DEATH. LOL The only way they could rule "WITH HIM" in Gods Kingdom after his "DEATH "is eather the inner spiritual kingdom OR a forced reading could mean the Prophet reincarnates. The modern group rejects both things as Gnostic stuff from the greeks. The above question you pose makes the case for spiritual Ebionites and supports the historic witness.
This is an important issue because not only should the group in question be held to the same contempt regarding notibility as the Spiritual Ebionites were and now archived as Talk:Ebionites/Neo-Ebionite but they should be relevant to the views of the notible Ebionites of the past. 64.12.117.14 15:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC) NazireneMystic 15:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I think your bias is leading you to jump to conclusions. The statement could easily be interpreted to mean that Jesus would be "revealed in power" when, whether it be 40 days or 2000 years later, he returns to fulfill the rest of Messianic prophecy by anointing his two Messiahs who would rule with in the kingdom of God on Earth. -- Loremaster 18:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
So you think the Ebionites view was simular to the christan view and the god-man jesus is returning? Remember the Ebionites also believed anyone that follows the law completey can also become the Christ/Messiah. I think your reading of that is more forced then mine. NazireneMystic 19:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Not at all. Jesus does not have to a be a "god-man" in order to return anymore than Elijah needs to be. Also, no one is disputing that Jesus could have become the Messiah. However, it seems that Ebionites believed that he was the Prophet like Moses, who is one of three messianic figures. -- Loremaster 13:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The title Neo- Ebionite was created by a very self serving POV and should be changed to reflect the actual title of the section that was once in the artical" Spiritual Ebionites" This is tipical of of the deception used by some editors NazireneMystic 19:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
If you are going to accuse me of a personal attack I think you should show evidence of such. I do not believe I have. I have assumed good faith in the past with you as can bee clearly seen in the archived talk pages. NazireneMystic 22:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This is objective discussion and shows how strong the pov in this artical is. Using any other term to discribe a section called spiritual ebionite is pov. at that time we went from being in the artical to not only being archived but not even given the correct name of the section. Calling the section Neo ebionites was a personal attack NazireneMystic 20:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think calling this section "Neo-Ebionite" was a personal attack. Even if it was, you can't change it otherwise the archive will be lost. Therefore, I've restored it's proper title. -- Loremaster 13:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Listen up Wikipedia Editors. I have read the archive section will be used in part of the peer review. OvadYah restored the so called Modern ebionite section and listed reasons way he found it relevent to the peer review and I restored the spiritual section as it was in the artical also and gave simular reasons. Then OvadYah deleted the spiritual section and said its archived and cant be unarchived till theres a concensus among the editiors. Is this true?? anyway why would it matter? Im not tring to restore it to the artical or the artical talk page. Im only tring to resotre it to an ARCHIVED page and the very spot that others are prepairing for peer review. Anyone with the ability to reason should read the edit history of the archived talk page and read what I restored compaired to the modern section that was also restored. The spiritual section was to be used to show articals written by Allan and linked to in the Spiritual section have even been used and reprinted by P.H.D.ed Scholars. If the Spiritual ebionites are going to peer review with our mouths taped and hands tied how is that not POV? You should carfuly be looking at whos doing these things. NazireneMystic 20:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The RFC was only for disputed NPOV in the spiritual Ebionite section and not for its notibility! Were did you people come from? NazireneMystic 10:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please post here a list of all published research on modern Ebionites? -- Loremaster 13:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Quoted from the website reluctant-messenger.com-"Dr. Stephen W. Boston, creator of www.reluctant-messenger.com, holds a Comparative Religion Ph.D., Biblical Studies M.A., and was a computer engineer for a major utility corporation prior to devoting efforts to spiritual research. He teaches The World Great Religions at a state university" This is a link to the artical [[ Biblical-Corruption by Allan Cronshaw]] NazireneMystic 23:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
NazireneMystic, I think I misunderstood your question.
HaHa, This is unbelieveable. My question was simple, short,and clear. So was your answer and I delievered as promised. We are not the ones with notibility problems nor are we short of matieral to back our position. All Ebionite related writings witness to us. But your point of view is that the other group need not show any notibility as was the case before we showed up. Not only that but they need not reflect the Ebionite matieral. That P.H.D.lost your respect because he doesnt support your point of view. NazireneMystic 02:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
You did very nice edits on Ebionites, but I strongly advise you to create your own page at Ebionite Restoration Movement where you will tread on fewer toes. Just click on the redlinked article and start writing / cut and pasting. You might still have problems with your writing style (I do advise you to read the preceeding links about Wikipedia writing style etc). When you are happy with the Ebionite Restoration Movement article we can link to it from the Ebionite page. --Michael C. Price talk 19:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nazirene"
I've created the following two articles and mentioned them in the See also section of the Ebionites article:
I suggest people who have a vested interest in these articles surviving a speedy deletion attempt or a full article for deletion debate not only watch over them but also improve and expand them. -- Loremaster 14:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I also suggest that people move any debate about these two religious groups to their respective talk pages.
The Talk:Ebionites talk page is only for discussing changes to the Ebionites article. -- Loremaster 14:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
As discussed back in August, I've gone ahead and nominated Ebionite Jewish Community and Ebionite Restoration Movement for deletion. -- Alecmconroy 21:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I see someones been busy editing the archived section. If your POV is shown during edit debates on the talk pages it must be easer to get it across after people quite adressing it. I even seeem to be missing replys I made back then.At least one I cant find, Glad my Good Faith wasnt abused NazireneMystic 20:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Well within the policy to be bold I reinserted the Ebionite restoration movement artical.
I thought they would be judged on thier merit and had no part in the prosses but after revewing the log the vote was made after Alecmconroy gave misleading information regarding the groups size and this seemed to effect the vote and the reason for deletion.once bringing up the notibility issue that was shown to be a non issue compaired to the ME group.
Once the notibility issue was asked to be judged with fair balance and with equal measures thats how both sections were first removed from the Ebionite artical.lol What could not be shown upfront was sneeked in the back door. NazireneMystic 02:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
While I, in "good faith" let what I thought would be unbiased editors to the deletion prossess without it seems Ovadyah and Alecmconroy were active meatpuppets in the discussion to delete the Ebionite Restoration Movement artical.
Both of them from the archived talk pages clearly know around 400 people are in our main fourm at any given time. We have around 6 other groups also.
The main one alone has more menbers the the other group. Alecmconroy , in the role of meatpuppet that the group had one or 2 members!
Ovadyah memtioned the mis- named neo-ebionite archives but failed to mention after we showed that our group was more notible in every aspect brought out in the prosses to exclude us then we both became subs and removed from the artical.
Another voter claimed outside of Allan's sites there in no memtion of the group at all. On my talk page I clearly have one site that takes almost a whole page attacking Allan, another site were a P.H.D.ed religous scholar reprints an artical Allan has written, and still another site were Were modern spiritual Ebionite writings are listed side by side with famous Christian and Jewish Mystics.
By contrast the evidence Ovadyah claims to be showing his group doesnt even mention them by name and does not show the writers of the articals he links to even know the name of the group or its plaiq I.E. President I.E.King.
Only the reference that used the past wikipedia "Ebionite" artical back when the artical was mainly a billboard for the EJC mentions the group but that realy dones mean anything since it was obtained from Wikipedia. NazireneMystic 16:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah,
Funny I didnt attack you but only showed what happened. If I was in error please show me how. If reality seems like apersonal attack on you I cant help you there. Feel free to report all you want NazireneMystic 19:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah,
Any reasonable person could not determin if being called deceitful, ignorant or diabolical or a meatpuppet is a personal attack untill it was looked into to see if this is so, it would be ignorant to do otherwise. Were the charges against Foley a personal attack? They surely would be if it were not true but in light of the evidence even his own party is not calling it a personal attack. NazireneMystic 17:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
LoreMaster,
Why should I be the only editor involved in this artical that is held to Wikipedia standards? Do you know the Ignorance I have had to put up with to this point? How about just the last day? After I followed Policy and restored the artical "boldly even", and that it was linked to the main ebionite artical it would be against wiki policy to speedily delete it. Our ever Honorable friend reported my justified undeletion as vandalism and then yet another briliant wikipedian honored the wooo "report" and went as far to tell me not to undelete the artical again. Siteing someone for not following wikipedia policy involved in this artical is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway NazireneMystic 19:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
In the Ebionite article there is a wonderful amount of early Christian works listed that have general support as describing Ebionite beliefs and then in the next section "history" we find this paragraph:
All these Christian sources agree that Ebionites denied the divinity of Jesus, the doctrine of the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, and the death of Jesus as an atonement. Ebionites seemed to have emphasized the humanity of Jesus as the mortal son of Mary and Joseph who became the messianic " prophet like Moses" when he was anointed with the holy spirit at his baptism. Sources also suggest that Ebionites believed all Jews and Gentiles must observe the Law of Moses; but it must be understood through Jesus' expounding of the Law, which he taught during his Sermon on the Mount. Therefore, of the books of the New Testament Ebionites only accepted an Aramaic version of the Gospel of Matthew, referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews, as additional scripture. This version of Matthew, critics reported, omitted the first two chapters (on the nativity of Jesus), and started with the baptism of Jesus by John.
After carefully reading these Christian sources I fail to find these Christian sources agreeing that:
....who became the messianic "prophet like Moses" when he was anointed with the holy spirit at his baptism. Sources also suggest that Ebionites believed all Jews and Gentiles must observe the Law of Moses; but it must be understood through Jesus' expounding of the Law, which he taught during his Sermon on the Mount. Therefore, of the books of the New Testament Ebionites only accepted an Aramaic version of the Gospel of Matthew, referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews, as additional scripture. This version of Matthew, critics reported, omitted the first two chapters (on the nativity of Jesus), and started with the baptism of Jesus by John....
In Reality no matter how bad of a personal attack it may seem. 1) the sources agree he was the Christ of God because no one else ever completely forfilled the law. 2) the reports of Ebionites beliefs regarding scripture was that their Gospel itself fully represented the whole of their faith. [I can get the quote if you but Im sure you have seen it and besides in the past actual quotes were deemed POV.lol ] 3) They believed the kanakh had falsehoods written into it and while they didn't need it they did not condom the Jews who were stuck on its literal words anymore then they condemned the Greeks who they claimed already corrupted the Gospel they had given them.
Of the above #2 and #3 have to deal with the first paragraph in the history section as well as the second one because James Tabor is in agreement with the early Christian writings regarding those topics. The second paragraph seems to be hinting that Tabor is in argument with the Christian sources when in fact he is not. Inserting "argues" instead of "agrees" is deceptive regardless of how much it seems to isolate the Christian witness and supports a certain POV.
After reading the history section of the Ebionite article I see at some point an editor reverted an edit that correctly states what the Christian sources said and noted that he was removing Gnostic Christian POV. So while you list the sources because most people would expect to see them the POV dominating this article will not allow what the sources actually state if they disagree with the articles featured group. this type of thinking seems to fit the description of cranks suffering from "discognitive dissonance" regarding the facts set before them. NazireneMystic 22:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are two quotations from Shlomo Pines manuscript, The Jewish Christians Of The Early Centuries Of Christianity According To A New Source, Proceedings of the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities II, No. 13 (1966) that shed light on the Ebionites:
Loremaster, that Abd al Jabbar's Messianics did not call themselves Ebionites and Jabbar himself didnt make the connection at bset it could be noted that Pines has a different view of Ebionites but to pick one view over the other to deside truth and narrow the scope of the artical doesnt sound very wikipedian to me NazireneMystic 20:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, after going through the second AfD and all that followed, I am now convinced this can only end one way. I have asked Jayjg to help out. Ovadyah 02:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the procedures required for mediation, I'm not sure this is the best course of action. Formal mediation requires that all parties be willing participants, and we don't have that situation here. Informal mediation may still be possible. The core problem is incivility, which Wikipedia defines as behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress. Ovadyah 21:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah, perhaps I can help in bringing a sense of calm to the exchange between NazireneMystic and the others here. I think one aspect that has contributed to the charged atmosphere is the sense that as soon as anyone that is not of the Jewish Ebionite mindset that you endorse contributes to the article their contribution is quickly deleted and charged with trespassing on your turf. If we can come to some understanding about how to contribute in a respectful manner the Truths we know and can back up with citations without being treated as terrorists then I think we can build a reasonable article without the stress you are feeling. You must come to accept though that not all Ebionites subscribe to Jewish ideas. Even from the beginning, respectfully, the Ebionites were Hebrew but they were closer to what is represented in scripture as Israelites rather than Jews. The important thing is that we collectively work together to represent an objective article on the Ebionites that is sufficiently complete to give the readers an understanding of the diverse schools of thought on Ebionites so that they can seek within themselves the Truth of the matter. Are we able to find a way forward as children of YHVH without the need of putting ourselves before the judgment of men? If so I believe NazireneMystic would be agreeable to liaising with me offline so that we are able to forward a predetermined consensus. -- EbioniteOfTheWay 13:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, think about a short-list of editors that are knowledgeable about this topic that you can accept for third-party commentary if it comes to that. Please bring your suggestions to my talk page. Ovadyah 00:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree incivility is a big problem but its root is in the fact you delete any edits that do not support your group and promote your narrow point of view. In times past one scholar listed in the article has come here and posted suggestion of which it would be hard to find any remaining evidence of by reading the main Ebionite article even after he contributed to the talk page LoreMaster first received them well. Then the incivility thats marred the history of this article showed its face again. How can mediation work when such a dominating point of view surpessess any evidence that is contrary?
Who do you think Loremaster should invite to mediation that will agree that while scholars disagree on the issue the article should be written in a manor to discount those against Ovadyah's point of view? Would that not be deciding truth? That doesn't sound very Wikipedia like. The Fact is there is evidence pointed in more then one direction.
Some of the scholars you like so much use the Dead Sea Scrolls to support some of their theories but a few scholars that worked on the scrolls came away with different prospective. One when as far as to say that the John's gospel, long thought to be the most "Hellenistic," could no longer be looked at that way and its framework could be found directly on Palestinian soil.
If we are going to explore different early Christian witnesses will we be able to mention in the artical that regardless if they were second century accounts or fourth century accounts they all say he became the Christ/messiah by being the first to totally forfill the law and when they "Ebionites" also Forfill the law they to become Christ/Messiah's or will this as in the past be deemed Gnostic Christian POV. Will you shop for people with a certain POV like during the peer review and who claimed that there is no evidence of The spiritual Ebionite existence outside of its own group when my talk page shows otherwise?
Wikilawyering can turn any resolution process against its intentions so as long as evidence is going to be surpressed or attacked for the reasons already mentioned by both you and Loremaster:
"As Ovadyah has suggested elsewhere, despite the deletion of the Ebionite Restoration Movement stub, a more general article about modern Ebionites should be considered with the Ebionite Jewish Community paragraph as a subset. Some suggestions for titles are "Modern Ebionite Movements" or "Ebionite Restoration Movements" or "Ebionism in Modern Times". Hopefully the AfD debate narrows the scope of the article so that we don't have to deal with cranks calling themselves Ebionites. -- Loremaster 16:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)"
This is the root of the incivility about this artical. The implcations of an NPOV artical would leave you dealing with people you disagree with. NazireneMystic 20:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, I was feeling very hopeful yesterday, but I am back to being convinced this can only end one way. Let's discuss. Ovadyah 22:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, any thoughts on the ERM reference in the article and third-party intervention? Ovadyah 22:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I have spoken with NazireneMystic and he is happy to let me coordinate discussion as discussed above. I propose we delete this section and start again. I was hoping to move forward with preparing a scoping section to add to the talk page. Is this acceptable to everyone? -- EbioniteOfTheWay 01:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Please Don't fix, since the article on both the Ebionites and the Ebionite Jewish Community represents a typical suppression of both historical facts and quotes, and the castration of reference materials because of political pressure. I have begun to use the suppression of the facts as an example of how references resoureces are castrated in order to suppress the Truth which you can review at http://TheThreeLies.com#TrueProphet This is an important lesson for seekers of Truth to recognize, and I can therefore use this article and the main Ebionite article of a prime example of this fact and reality. -- Nazirene -- Nazirene 13:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The Ebionites and Ebionite Jewish Community articles and talk pages may be bugged with some kind of Trojan Horse. My user talk page is affected as well. It looks like some kind of redirect, judging by the warning messages I am seeing. I'm having WP:AN/I look into it. I wonder who has an interest in the Ebionites and EJC articles and my talk page combined with the technical expertise to do such a thing? Ovadyah 21:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I seem to have lost control of my NazireneMystic account. I changed a passward and forgot it but then I tried to get a new one send to my registered Email it never showed up and now I would have to wait a day to try again so I made up this one.
In the history section this sentence is totaly POV and should be removed as it has no justification "whether or not his claims are accurate" That could be placed in front of every source in the artical. who in the world edited that sentence in? LOL
Since we are going as far as list one scholars wild therory the Clement writings are Gnostic Christian I believe to attempt to present a NPOV I will add the ideas Hans Joachim Schoeps presents in his reviewed work: "Aus fruhchristlicher Zeit: Religionsgeschichtliche Untersuchungen " were he states the Clementine materals nearest parallels are to be found in the book of "Jubilees" and "Ehoch". His entire work is not on line but I found a nugget or to here http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-9231%28195203%2971%3A1%3C58%3AAFZRU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N&size=LARGE
Since we know this materal is very populous among the dead sea scroll fragments. SpiritualEbionite 09:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I just looked over the rest of the artical and it seems since ive been gone a darkness has come over the artical. Someone seems to have nailed "Epiphanius of Salamis" to the cross while ive been away. SpiritualEbionite 09:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster,
I think you are going have to explain yourself a little better then that. My adition was writen in a NPOV mannor. My " Schoeps " adition did not counter Pines but just gave credit to the clementine writings your current artical is trying to discredit. Schoeps is listed in the sources section . I cant help it if this does not support your point of view and I do not see any reason slant the artical and keep opinons of this scholar supressed in order to keep the artical somewhat in line with the EJC doctorines. A NPOV artical presents the facts,Wikipedia is not an experiment in socialism were a week, unsupported point of view is given creditbiliy by hindering evidence regarding the topic of the artical. Takeing from the pro clementine camp to support your anti clementine view is a form of wikipedian welfare. You do not own this artical. I would call your revert of my NPOV edit vandalism. Instead of a well written artical is seem people here waht to build a house of cards that looks sound from a quick glance but quickly falls apart under careful observation SpiritualEbionite 20:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Adding Pines without giving the pinion of Schoeps does not make the artical NPOV as you contend. Pines brings up the point that the source is not from the Jewish thought but rather from greek thought by calling it Gnostic christian. The unknowing might be lead to believe this. Schoeps clears this misconception up and shows the spiritual concepts come directly from a Hebrew mindset. SpiritualEbionite 20:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
LoreMaster,
Fair enough. Your edit makes it read better to. I do like the title of the work, I can not pronounce but thought it looked good in the artical.LOL SpiritualEbionite 20:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Only someone wanting to hide Wikipedialawyering and the real root of the incivility involved in working on this artical would be activly reverting ongoing discussion of the Ebionite artical into four seperate archives as to place things people say in obscure places and out of order with the time line and topic they were first posted in. I am not saying names and and in no way attacking anyone. Just for the record this edit first appeared on the ebionite talk page long after the Spiritual Ebionites that were mis-named neo-Ebionites section was removed from the artical. That the spiritual Ebionite section was removed and susposed resolved was the reason given to seperate it from the main archive But ongoing discussions on the Ebionite artical that present problems to the POV dominating the artical are still presently being revverted to mis-maned neo-Ebionte section. The truth has nothing to hide so why have so many highly regarded Wikipedia Admins that have been eyeing this artical not taken action regarding these practices? SpiritualEbionite 23:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I recently heard from a source that Shemayah Phillips was hacked and had a hard drive wiped out on one of his computers, resulting in considerable damage to his business. Clearly, there is a malevolent individual or group out there with advanced computer knowledge that won't hesitate to use it for destructive purposes. I don't know if this attack is related to the previous funny business I observed on these pages, but I would advise everyone working on the article to set up a double firewall to guard against similar mischief. Ovadyah 20:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah I see you butchered the artical quite well along with further vandalsim of the talk page. Does the POV editor you shoped for out weight the scholars I mentioned? While I think its silly, Wikipedia , or at least the religous and political POV's dominating the artical, have set a standard that only scholars with peer reviewed articals written about "Ebionite " by name are source materal. How is pleasing Rubenstein's request out weight the Scholars that meet this requirment? How can Ebionite's been literaly torah observant when they believed it had been falsified? How can you deny Ebionites believed they to become christ/messiah when they forfill the law when Peer reviewed scholars writing about ebionites say the very mind set in clementine writings YOU claim are Gnostic can be traced to earlier Hebrew text? With Scholars contrary to your paragraph listed as sources in the artical you out right lied publishing that all the while not adressing the very jewishness of inner revelation and a prexistant soul that evolves to perfection over many lives. You claim the very lack of such Jewish sources shows the Clementine writings are Gnostic which is funny since many scholars that out weight you say the Clementine writings attack Christian Gnostism. You realy dont have a clue as to what the scholars were pointing out just as you dont have a clue as to what an Ebionite is.
This is just keeping consistant with your M.O. From the deceptions from this talk page like:
Shalom Loremaster,
This is a big thing to ask that I assume good faith regarding OvadYah. This editor has been quite deceptive during this enite debate. First he was attempting to pass as a NPOV a few archived pages ago but I do not believe this can any longer be hid. Look at the exchange that took place right before you asked me to assume "good faith" were he states:
"I have never heard of Shemayah Phillips claiming for himself more than the title of Paqid, which is basically a secretary or clerk. By contrast, the claims of your leader are exceedingly pretentious, and he was also excommunicated -- from the Ebionite Jewish Community. I guess that's why you folks loathe Shemayah so much huh?
Given this statment what would you understand it to mean? I went to his site and searched for the term "Paqid" it says the term is irrelevent and it realy means "President" not only that but this office of President can be handed down to sucsessors like a Monarchy. This offices makes him the desider of all things Ebionite[in his little world]. This sounds like a type of "Priory of Sion" situation given Yeshua said to not even call another man teacher but all should be taught by the christ I.E. "Anointing",which by the way has nothing to do with oil being poured on your head.
In the above statment he tries to minumize this and then call Allan my "leader". All I can say is ive been in Allans fourms for over 3 years and hes never ordered anyone to do anything.
Then he says Allan was Excommunicated or some nonsence like that. Wouldnt you have to be converted before your excommunicated? If the EC will tell you of "Ebionites proper" if asked regarding someones standing as thier President says at his site then they must have records of the rituals practised at converson like circumsision. I would LOVE to see reconds of that converson. This editor is relating the joining of a online fourm to being converted to thier religion.If you are kicked off the fourm your"Excommunicated". In that sence one of the wikipedia Editors is now a member in autoplasty from our group because one joined and then left. read my talk page and see the person that asked to join, he joinded shortly afterward he asked me to accept him to the fourm and then he left in a few days. If you message him and ask I dought he thinks he ever converted and accepted Allan as a "Leader" I dought he would think he did.LOL However this is the type foolishness directed as us im to take with good faith.
I did assume good faith when I called him ignorant because if these things were knowingly done it would be diobolical.NazireneMystic 22:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Loremaster"
Well when Allan wrote a a section on Spiritual Ebionite in the same matter of fact mannor that the suspose EJC section was written in you called for a RFC on the grounds the spiritual section was POV however it was in the same style of your presidents group. Then the RFC raised the issue of notibility but in every case after we showed we met the standard he would set forth more so then your group both sections were droped ,subs were made of each, and You not only acted as a meatpuppet but invited a high ranking admin that total ignored the facts and even published a lie to support his vote, You and Alechemy did the same thing. None from our camp stooped as low as to bring a bised vote into your groups articals of deletion review let along invite people and lie about the facts. Do you remember this? First let me get a few facts from my talk page then we can look into the articals of deletion log on the Ebionite Restoration Movement, hows that?
Keep in mind alchemy had joined our group for about two days and knows first hand at any time about 400 people are memebers and a large core regularly contribute to the discussions
1) An entire page from a religous site actualy calling Allan by name and condeming us.The writer seems to not be discerning enough to understand what Peter contended with Simon Maguns over and links any spiritual concepts to him. religous group You can't make this stuff up.
2) P.H.D'ed religous scholars reprinting[with permition] Allan's articals. Artical by Allan Cronshaw
3) While records of the time show civil disobedence by Ebionites and early Christians no evidence shows it was done in the name of the Jewish state or the name of religion, Just as Yeshua said the truth will set you free, living thruth in your life will set you apart from the rest of the people on earth. The type of disobedence was not nationalist,socialist or communistic but rather aposing ignorance just as the Yeshua did, Based on truth. Different times,same spirit. fighting ignorance This is a link to court papers of a constitutional challange and evidence of endemic criminal corruption in the N.Y. court system.
4)If you understand why the Ebionites did not expect Jesus to return and rule the world and still call him Messiah after his death you understand the kingdom is purely spirital in nature. This site has spiritual Ebionite writings along side famous christian and jewish mystics like Max Heindel and Yonassan Gershom. Ebionite writings.
In light of my facts found through simple searches can any of you explain yourselves? Can you justify an artical in wikipedia on the EJC when you lawyered us out of an artical? Go look at Ovadyah talk page at his mountian high house of cards evidence. I dont see any of the people in the articals he is linked to even know of his President or his group. There are a few sites mirrored from past versons of the wikipedian articals that were a soapbox for that group but other then that not much at all. I should mention in all fairness one site I did find called called Ovadyah 's president a X-Baptist preacher. Is this all the notibility that was required?
We even had one of the scholars listed as source matieral come had give a list of sugestions of which Loremaster said he was happy to have but Ovadyah discredited him, Hmmm Maybe he is realy the EJC king himself? He sure thinks he is the desider of all things Ebionite and leads Loremaster around like a dog. NazireneMystic 21:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
LoreMaster,
Feel free to do what ever you want a try but manybe you should take the advise I left another Editor on my page when he accused me of attacking him. What is it you are claiming insulted you? If it was me saying you placed my edit in a section that was different then I posted in then please refure to DIFF 12:19, 12 November 2006 . Of course this has already been denied by you but there it is.
If it was refuring to being lead like a dog by Yah I dont have the time to dig through the archived pages to find our chat about science and how you prove modern sicence in that the thoughts of the experimentor can change the outcome of the Experiment after which you agreed you cant tell when you write in a POV mannor. You will also find in the archived past a list of Keith's sugestions that you seemed happy to apply untill Yah LEAD you in the direction of his POV. I dont think you can help it much and realy have been the most level headed Wikipedian ive meet that has been active in this artical while I have been hear whoever thats not saying much. One think slubinstine's comments is that a strong point of the artical names many big names as sources. Its a shame that Yah opening paragraph is at odds with at least Three of the listed Scholars however its writen in a mannor that would make the reader think all these sources agree to that POV paragraph. I have also joined the EJC online community. Its very interesting. Not that numbers mater to me like they seemed to matter to the meat puppets in the deletion hearings which can been seen at diff: 21:19, 12 November 2006 but this group is rather small.The EJC wikipedian artical as well as thier web site claim his movement GREW into this online community. Well with 50 members I would hate to see its size before this explosive growth. The only peron that can post messages appears to be the plaiq / King/ Desider of all things. Yah has turned out to be be like the wizard of OZZ with all his susposed evidence but only you pull back the curtian theres just a little man pulling a bunch of levers. NazireneMystic 20:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, explain yourself for your revert to the artical. You are favoring speculation over your source material. I see wikipedians love to stuff words in other people moughts then the source material doesnt fit thier POV. At least remove the scholar from the list of sources so it doesnt appear he supports the foolishness being published in the Ebionite artical. NazireneMystic 17:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The only short statment allowed to stand in the artical regarding Schoeps is " The influence of Ebionites is debated. Schoeps argues that their primary influence on mainstream Christianity was to aid in the defeat of gnosticism"
Since the concepts in the clementine writing wikipedians seem to get confused with simon magnus's gnosticism. You seem to favor publishing blantant lies and of course Yah does, that goes with out saying.
I have looked hard to find some of schopes work in public domain but most of it can only be seen buy research groups. This is all I could find and shows the spiritual concepts expressed in the clementine writings are rooted in Hebrew thought. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-9231%28195203%2971%3A1%3C58%3AAFZRU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N&size=LARGE
In the past sources not being public domain was a reason given on these talk pages to exclude information and has lead editors to include as a link the outdated bitanica artical on Ebionites. In view of recent evidence birtanica a much more accurate discription.
"Most of the features of Ebionite doctrine were anticipated in the teachings of the earlier Qumran sect, as revealed in the Dead Sea Scrolls. They believed in one God and taught that Jesus was the Messiah and was the true "prophet" mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:15. They rejected the Virgin Birth of Jesus, instead holding that he was the natural son of Joseph and Mary. The Ebionites believed Jesus became the Messiah because he obeyed the Jewish Law. They themselves faithfully followed the Law, although they removed what they regarded as interpolations in order to uphold their teachings, which included vegetarianism, holy poverty, ritual ablutions, and the rejection of animal sacrifices. The Ebionites also held Jerusalem in great veneration."
So my question is were in the public domain can I find that Schoeps argues that their primary influence on mainstream Christianity was to aid in the defeat of gnosticism besides here on wikipedia and sites that mirror it?
This artical is full of garbage like this. You have built a true house of cards. NazireneMystic 18:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems Birtanica has expanded the public domain portion of their Ebionite artical. Since the fossilized adition linked to the wikipedia Ebionite artical could not consider discoveries made at later dates this updated version would prove to be a much more accurate resourse to link to. Cheers! http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9031860/Ebionite NazireneMystic 19:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
So you can not find anything to support it?
Are thoes the only people that think articals should be backed with verifiable references?
you have not given one "Verifiable" citation for gospel of barnabas or the Schoeps reference. Sir I think you should do more research and learn to write a good artical before nominating one.
How can any reader Verify any of the information you have given so far?
Logging in only mask your IP adress so I realy do not understand your point.
I checked and that user is not blocked and was not blocked during my earlier edits. Has that user in the past asked for citations also?
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The disputed section on Spiritual Ebionites was placed on Talk:Ebionites/Neo-Ebionite by the RFC editor. The talk sections relevant to the dispute have been moved to the same page. An abstract of the resolution of the dispute is shown below. Ovadyah 20:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Alecmconroy, let's bring this issue to closure before we fill another talk page. The spiritual ebionite folks have had plenty of opportunity to make their case for notability, and you have stated repeatedly that they don't meet Wiki's requirements. Despite Michael's best editorial efforts to find a compromise, the notability problem remains. I think we should move the current abstract on the spiritual ebionites to the second talk page along with all the related talk sections. Let them create a new page per Michael's suggestion, and if they survive the VfD process, they can link back to this article. Michael and I can work together to clean up the remaining material. What do you think? Ovadyah 04:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom OvadYah and Alecmconroy,
Its interesting the talk page was edited as well but then if it remained as was any non biased reasonable person would see the Spiritual Ebionite section was removed buy a selfserving POV after when each notibility issue you brought up was indeed shown to exist and you then would shift to another to support your point of view.
The story of real Ebionites were erased from history buy simular POV'S as those that dominate this artical today. The Spirit of Constantines correctors are alive in well. The modern Ebionite movement potrayed in the Wikipedia artical is mearly a Jehovah's witnesses verson of the Jews for Jesus movement. NazireneMystic 23:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
As it stands now very little of the Ebionite artical is relevant to Ebionites. I do not see how any of my post or thoes of like minded people discouraged discussion. On the contrary we sparked discussion but removing matrial different then the articals offical POV indeed discourages discussion. 205.188.116.198 02:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
OvadYah,Maybe you are unaware of wiki's AOL problems? If you are go read up on it. The funny thing about this is in the future when buried staches of Ebionite scriptures are found YOU will not allow them in your ebionite artical because it will seem like they come from a "malicious self-serving POV" 205.188.116.198 03:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I won't be responding to individual posts from now on regarding the RFC. I consider the matter to be closed. I will periodically sweep comments regarding the spiritual ebionites and the RFC process to the Neo-Ebionites page under "Further Comments". Thanks for participating. Ovadyah 14:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
How can the matter be closed! nothing was resolved and that is why what was on the talk page was archived away. if it remained here the choice to keep the modern ebionites in the artical and reject the spiritual ebionite would be laughable to anyone reading it. NazireneMystic 18:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah: you seem to have a POV that your Ebionite Jewish Community is notable, contrary to popular opinion amongst the editors here. I looked at the 'evidence' you have gathered to support your group's claim of notability and find them less compelling than the other groups you are so eager to delete mention of. I consider your position to be self serving and request that senior editors disallow Ovadyah from reinserting this unwarranted Wiki promotion of his group. Aliothrick 15:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom Rick, I have found, but yet to post in writings atributed to Ebionites that Peter discribes the oil used for anointing and he states it is pressed from the wood of the tree of life so this group that claims to be Ebionite and believes the anointing comes from actual literal oil must think they possess the actual tree of life in the garden of eden. If this is the case and they can show this tree it would be notible indeed. Thier point of view while shared by many is contary to the Ebionite view and this is one quote thats soon to surface in the artical, if need be.NazireneMystic 20:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC) NazireneMystic 20:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom OvadYah, Its not my intention to claim a religous belief is obsurd but to show by quoting the sources its obsurd to think of them as anything more to do with the notible Ebionites then a shared name. I for one believe all religions slowly life after life contribute to the growth of souls and are needed. If the Ebionite matieral makes the modern ebionite movement seem different which should go? Writings and witnesses of thier time or the new movement? without the Ebionites of the first few centuries to take a pedigree from the modern jewish Ebionite movement would not be notible at all period. So if these writings have nothing to do with them and thoes that wrote them were the notible Ebionties who the heck is this new group? NazireneMystic 20:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC) Stop deleting portions of the article without concensus or I will have you blocked. There are procedures that need to be followed on Wiki to resolve disputes. Please follow them. I have created a new section to facilitate discussion. Ovadyah 16:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
OvadYah,It seems the senior editors were quite biased. To accomadate the modern Ebionites hardly any quotes from earlier witnesses can even be listed in the artical. Only a selective few that do not counterdict the new verson of Ebionites mentioned on the artical. If large amounts of quotes regarding Ebionites and quotes from thier Gospel have to give way to accomadate this new movement then maybe the best attempts from these editors were failures?17:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
In the Ebionite artical it is said " The most complete of these comes from Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote his "Panarion" in the fourth century, denouncing 80 heretical sects, among them the Ebionites, described in Panarion 30. In addition to quotations from their gospels, there are also general descriptions of their ideas and point of view."
Untill now hardly any of the Panarion is quoted in fear that, "general descriptions of their ideas and point of view." Might be contrary to the modern POV the artical takes regarding modern Ebionites.
I went ahead and NPVOED the artical by qouting a few things formerly surpressed.
I have hummored you and have not quoted from the Clement writings and will instead stick to what you say is" to describe ancient Ebionites."
I do find this interesting that the editors claim you need scholarly support but text such as the Clement writings have just that and then you dispite the scholarly concensus. This sounds like stupendous first hand rearch! Isee your main funtion is to surpress many scholars and ealry witnesses to support a very narrow point of view you think is true but as you have reminded me" As Alec mentioned, Wikipedia's function is to report, not to decide what is truth. "
You may have misunderstud the earlier quotes regarding the law becuase the law they were justified in is the law when they thought eating meat was abominable. there is not historic reference to sugest the Ebionite didnt follow a spiritualized Esseneic view of the law but thses anti flesh quotes supports just that. To claim they upheld the literal law of torah like is unfounded.
What makes Ebionites notible is that they claim to be the first direct followers of Yeshua. Since Modern Ebionites mentioned in this artical clearly do not hold to these Ideas I do not see how thier mention in the artical is relevent.
They only took a name to give them Pedigree. They could be notable as calling themselves Modern Ebionite jewish communities and maybe they can start an "Modern Ebionite" artical or something of that nature but to surpress the Reporting of most evidence atributed to Ebionites in order to support someones verson of what a true Ebionite is doesnt sound very Wikipedia to me NazireneMystic 20:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
OvadYah, You seem to be tring to determining the truth here instead of reporting to give POV to atrical. such things are useful for blogging but have no place in wikipedia. NazireneMystic 19:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It is known the Essene thought of themselves as extremely Torah observent but it is well known they did not eat flesh or have anything to do with temple ritual so thier understanding of the law was one of spirit and not the literal word. If you place the reporting together you do not come up with counterdictions but the nature of the law they were justified by. When the gentile church complained the Ebionite said they needed to follow the law there is no reason to assume it was literal written rituals some speculate they followed.
If you only go by reportings as is what wikipedia is susposted to do and not deside truth its clear the greeks were objecting to following the spiritual law. anything else is POV but I dont mind even some point of view but not to the point were most of what is known can not be reported to support the verson of what some think is a true Ebionite. 205.188.116.198 20:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I, Loremaster, one of the main contributors to the Ebionites article, created the Modern Ebionites section and wrote its content, in which I only mentioned the Ebionite Jewish Community since I wasn't aware of any other group at the time. If there are other modern Ebionite groups that meet a degree of notability that Wikipedia considers sufficient I have no problem with them being mentioned in this section. -- Loremaster 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom Loremaster, I support the spiritual Ebionites. I am not Allan Cronshaw. My main goal here is to NPOV this artical. I understand you feel it was already NPOVED but the modern Ebionite section without a spititual counterpart to counter balance it made this artical bias against the historical Ebionites. In time quoting from writings scholars support as being pro Ebionite would make that more clear.Im fine with the artical as it is now with the modern Ebionite community section taken down. I dont believe anyone from the spiritual Ebionites wanted to use wikipedia as a promotion thing or soap box but rather didnt want Ebionites misrepresented. I feel its about as NPOV now as can be expected NazireneMystic 00:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Greetings Loremaster. Welcome to the party. The article looks much better now. I think you did the right thing by removing all the Modern Ebionites material. I would have removed the disputed EJC section of the article to this section of the talk page first, but that's ok. I'm looking forward to peer review. ;-) Ovadyah 12:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I created a new section so we don't mix up the discussions of ancient and modern Ebionites. You are off to a good start, NM. Keep in mind that some of what you just quoted from Epiphaneus directly contradicts the earlier writings of Hippolytus on Ebionite's obedience to the Law, so it's fair to say this material is less certain. Ovadyah 19:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
You cant mix up discussions about Modern and ancient Ebionites unless you do something like try to include them in the same artical. lol
The Ebionites are notible because of thier place in history and the convinant eradication of them. Ebionites are not the same as The modern jewish Ebionite movement so to avoid confussion lets remove them from the artical and if they are notible then thier Modern Jewish Ebionite community artical stand on its own I do agree thoe that its important to not confuss the Ebionites and the modern jewish communities calling themselves Ebionites. NazireneMystic 21:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
If they are can not pass the extreme notibilty standards the Spiritual Ebionites were held to the the only reason to include them is to promote your POINT OF VIEW. NazireneMystic 23:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The spiritual Ebionite section was never resolved!
Considering what I have only begone to pull up short quotes from the writings the Ebionite artical already says has scholary support elimenating the spiritual Ebionites who are in agreement with them but keeping the modern Ebionite section in the artical that seem to hold to one or two little fragments of that is considered Ebionite to support thier point of view and discard the rest is unfounded.
Is it a notability issue? We covered thoes bases and then we were archived to pretend the case was resolved. The space shuttle program is notible but guess what? Its not in the Ebionite artical because its not relevent to the "Ebionites" and after all thats what this artical is about. Its not about modern ebionites or space shuttles. actualy the modern Ebionite section cast a very biased POV toward the entire artical, Historical witnesses, and writings that scholars support as Ebionite in origin.
If the Ebionite artical is going to include thoes today that claim to be ebionites and disregard the rest of the artical that has also been deemed Ebionite related how can you then not include a group that is in agreement with them? Ive noticed the Essene artical has groups mentioned that are no more notible then Allan Cronshaw's group. but they are not archived for not being notible. Guess I will have to pull up more stuff from the Ebionite related writings untill the artical just looks plain silly with the modern section in it. NazireneMystic 18:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank-you Loremaster for resolving what is the greatest concern of many of us in regards to Ebionites being misrepresented by the content of the Modern Ebionite section. In reading your comments regarding the context of the original inclusion of this section I understand why it was done. Ebionites of the Gnostic pursuasion see being an Ebionite as a state of mind that is poor to the ways of this world. From this perspective a worldly Jewish sect does not represent a break from the ways of this world, and in fact stands for the opposite. Their physical worship makes them "rich ones" to the ways of the world and 'poor ones' to the ways of the spirit. As most people today that associate themselves as being Ebionites are sympathetic to the Gnostic position I am sure that the removal of the EJC section will temper discussion and allow all editors to work to make the article what it should be. Aliothrick 05:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia Community:
If I may, I'd like to add my perspective to the discussion regarding "Ebionite" and, by way of this current discussion, give my assessment about the removal of the "Talmidi" page about a year ago.
I am a scholar in religious studies and I specialize in comparing ancient and modern religions, with emphasis on Jewish, Jewish Christian and Christian mystical/gnostic ideas and movements. Researchers do not assess the value of an idea, movement or community with regard to whether it is "notable." That is a difficult word to define and unhelpful for research. If an idea, movement or community exists, whether ancient or modern, and has produced or produces literature and has an audience, it is a valid topic for academic attention.
I personally find it unhelpful for research for others who may have opinions on a topic or who may disagree about the content of others' religious beliefs, but who are not researchers in this field (and thus cannot imagine the benefit of a variety of information to academics) to determine the validity of a topic and to control access to it (in this case, for general information on the topic of "Ebionite" through Wikipedia now, and a year ago on the topic of "Talmidi"). I used Wikipedia for both topics (Ebionite and Talmidi) to contact members of these communities for research purposes. By using "notable" as the defining characteristic for inclusion, but failing to define exactly what "notable" means, indicates that a "neutral point of view" has not been preserved in the discussion.
My request is that the Ebionite page be edited to include all the varieities of Ebionitism that are being developed in the modern era, and that the Talmidi page be restored for the same reason.
Warmly, Helen C. Harrison PhD Candidate University of California Riverside
Shalom Alecmonroy, does relevence to the artical have anything to do with weather its in an artical? If it even compairs to notibility then the Modern neo ebionites supported by the Talmidim biased OvadYah is about as relevent to an Ebionite artical as tring to add a Talmidim link to wiki's artical on "Sabbatai Zevi" that he was enlightened by following the literal letter of the law, or pouring oil on his head. On that note considering the nature of the law the writings that give Ebionite prospective show, an internal link to the Sabbatai Zevi is much more notible in general and far more revevent to the law the Ebionites followed then the links now provided. The Talmidim wiki Editor with a POV so far holds the spiritual Ebionites to the same contempt as his brothern did to Sabbatai Zevi. The Ebionites did not live apart from the Jews for being literaly following the surface text of any book, In fact they wrote the scriptures many try to use against them today. NazireneMystic 19:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Shalom OvadaYah,Any true Ebionite would be ,as you call it, Excommunicated from that group, its truly a blessing.We dont Loathe the misinformed man and could care less about his community if he wasnt listed in the past in Ebionite artical when he only has the name Ebionite in common with the Notible Ebionites of the past and you kept deleting any mention of the spiritual Ebionites as just a POV. That in itself is a very strong anti-Ebionite point of view.As far as loathing goes it seems your group has written almost a page of its site about Allan Cronshaw's Little group that you say is not notable. Just follow the link and scroll down till you see the heading condeming gnostism,click on the heading. The writer seems to not be discerning enough to understand what it is Simon Magnus was promoting and lumps all spiritual concepts into Gnostism. [ Ovadyas group. That alone is worth taking note about. Anyway as I said before, a few times now, in the end, if the modern Jewish community thing is part of the Ebionite Artical and the spiritual Ebionites are not included you will have to surpress almost all the writings in the artical that are currently thought to be NPOV, or deside what select few quote are offical truth and not pov in order keep it from looking flat out ignorant. I will keep quoting from the writings and it will become hard to explain how a susposed NPOV would want to surpress writings that show the notable Ebionite's point of view just to make the artical's featured group seem somewhat relevent to the artical. This artical will be the laughing stock of Wikipedia NazireneMystic 05:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
My point is the same as I started with. I want to see the artical NPOVED. When I first ran across this artical and saw its one sidedness and on the talk page you were deleting edits to the artical on diet even when editors backed thier position the artical was a totaal wreck and mainly an Ad for your group. I felt its my duty to counter that misinformation which happened but you fought to keep the artical very biased. The reason first given for the RFC was only to NPOV the spiritual Ebionite section. Then the notibility issue was brought up and even thoe we adressed the issues reality didnt matter to the RFC and we were archived. once it was asked that your Group be held to the same crazy standard thats when the your group was taken down, both were given religous stubs and the press to peer review was started. If you motives were as clear from the start as they are now your POV would had been harder to empose. Your extreme support of that religous group lead you to say crazy things to attack us. I have show them to be very misleading. I never hid that im part of allans group and even had the RFC ask me to let him join the group to check it out and the entire time only want the artical NPOVED. With given the notibiliy issue and artical content early witnesses and many modern scholars would have to be surpressed to include your group without ours. From early on we said It would be great if no groups were memtioned. 152.163.101.14 17:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I am confussed by the above statment. How long have you known Allan Cronshaw and Mr. Phillips? 152.163.101.14 17:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Shalom Loremaster,
This is a big thing to ask that I assume good faith regarding OvadYah. This editor has been quite deceptive during this enite debate. First he was attempting to pass as a NPOV a few archived pages ago but I do not believe this can any longer be hid. Look at the exchange that took place right before you asked me to assume "good faith" were he states:
"I have never heard of Shemayah Phillips claiming for himself more than the title of Paqid, which is basically a secretary or clerk. By contrast, the claims of your leader are exceedingly pretentious, and he was also excommunicated -- from the Ebionite Jewish Community. I guess that's why you folks loathe Shemayah so much huh?
Given this statment what would you understand it to mean? I went to his site and searched for the term. it can be found by going to the FAQpage and look for the heading "how are Ebionites governed?" Paqid it says the term is irrelevent and it realy means "President" not only that but this office of President can be handed down to sucsessors like a Monarchy. This offices makes him the desider of all things Ebionite[in his little world]. This sounds like a type of priory of Sion situation given Yeshua said to not even call another man teacher but all should be taught by the christ I.E. "Anointing",which by the way has nothing to do with oil being poured on your head. In the above statment he tries to minumize this and then call Allan my "leader". All I can say is ive been in Allans fourms for over 3 years and hes never ordered anyone to do anything. Then he says Allan was Excommunicated or some nonsence like that. Wouldnt you have to be converted before your excommunicated? If the EC will tell you of "Ebionites proper" if asked regarding someones standing as thier President says at his site then they must have records of the rituals practised at converson like circumsision. I would LOVE to see reconds of that converson. This editor is relating the joining of a online fourm to being converted to thier religion.If you are kicked off the fourm your"Excommunicated". In that sence one of the wikipedia Editors is now a member in autoplasty from our group because one joined and then left. read my talk page and see the person that asked to join, he joinded shortly afterward he asked me to accept him to the fourm and then he left in a few days. If you message him and ask I dought he thinks he ever converted and accepted Allan as a "Leader" I dought he would think he did.LOL However this is the type foolishness directed as us im to take with good faith.
I did assume good faith when I called him ignorant because if these things were knowingly done it would be diobolical.NazireneMystic 22:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC) NazireneMystic 18:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
How is exposing a deceptful attack spewing bile? If I didnt adress what you say we would be ran over as fast as the early attempts from others to include NPOV statments in the Ebionite artical. 152.163.101.14 17:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Shalom, I understand some people were wondering why the talk page suddenly became archived and one editor said it was to remove person attacks off the talk page but in reallity it was because I posted the above comment in Loremaster's talk page. Once it was clear I was indeed presuming good faith and the deceptive nature of some editors was shown Loremaster desided to archive the issue away. NazireneMystic 18:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC) OvadYah's extreme POV!, OvadYah I have found some statements of yours quite telling. This is taken from your talk page "The books of Prof. Hyam Maccoby are considered to be foundational reading for Ebionites." and you say you dont promote the EC group?? Since you have already claimed out of ignorance on these talk pages that the witnesses stating the Ebionite didnt eat meat and blasphemed much of the law saying""christ has revevled this to me""... counterdicted earlier claims and now you even add from your discussion page .... "The EC does not think the Gospel of the Hebrews or the Clementine literature provide any more reliable insights into the ancient Ebionites than the New Testament. The pseudo-Clementines are heavily overlayed with gnostic stuff from later centuries. There is a core document in there somewhere of the Kerygmata Petrou, but it's hard to reconstruct it. That makes it easy for someone to come along and just pick and choose what they want. I think the Gospel of the Ebionites was probably written in Rome by Theodotus the Cobbler, but I can't prove it. His group had a very similar low christology to the Ebionites, but they were Gentiles and probably didn't follow Jewish law." This seems like stupendous first hand research!!!! Tell me since you think Gnostic belief means to think there is more then one God how are these writings in your terms Gnostic?you realy dont know what Ebionites are or what Gnostic meant to thoes that coined the term. High five to you! So let me get this right, in order for your EC group to be featured in the artical without a proper spiritual counterpart in Allan Cronshaw's group Wikipedia must toss aside most all shcolars, most all Ebionite related Scriptues, most all Historical Witnesses, and hold Your surpreme Leader the great speaker of truth and desider of what is Ebionite just so your group will seem some what relevent to the artical instead of reporting as Alchem has said Wikipedia is susposed to do? Listen up Wikipedia Editors, Like I have now Many times said allowing this ignorance to stand as susposed NPOV will make you look Ignorant in the long run. I can provide early sources that state Jesus was adopted at baptism which of course means IN THE EC's point of view that someone poured oil on his head or as we contend:"(Origen, quoted by Schliemann). Yeshua/Jesus, they asserted, "was justified by fulfilling the Law. He was the Christ of God, since not one of the rest of mankind had observed the Law completely. Had any one else fulfilled the commandments of the Law, he would have been the Christ." Hence "when Ebionites thus fulfill the law, they are able to become Christs, for they assert that our Lord Himself was a man in like sense with all humanity." (Hippolytus, Refut. Omn. Haer. vii. 34). WE deal with these types of fragmented points of view every day weather it be Jewish, Christian, muslim, newage, old age, humanist..... the same ignorance still stands today as it did in Yeshua's time, as it should be, so you might seek truth within yourself and stop following manmade doctorines. Good luck and kind regards with your Peer Review Party NazireneMystic 07:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
08:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC) BTW,Hyam Maccoby Was A Talimid scholar, ask the next Talimid rabbi you meet what they think of jesus and you will see the filter he was using, hardly a NPOV but this is the person that invented the EC'S religion. NazireneMystic
The following text was previously a section in the article:
In 1985, Shemayah Phillips founded a movement that would eventually grow into the online Ebionite Jewish Community by 1995. This movement claims to be the legitimate descendant in teaching and practice of the original Ebionites.
The Ebionite Jewish Community promotes Yahwism, the recognition of Jesus as a Jewish prophet (rather than as a Messiah as he is portrayed in Christian writing), and claims that Christianity is not a biblically-based religion. Ebionites actively campaign against missionary work done by Christian groups, and encourages a return to a Tanakh-reliant approach to Judaism amongst messianic Jews, Hebrew Christians, Gentile Christians and others.
Modern Ebionites are not gnostic, or dualist, but strictly monotheistic. Ebionites believe that monotheism disallows a belief in a " Satan" that competes with God. Modern Ebionitism emphasizes the social justice aspect of the Tanakh, and Yahwism as a socio-economic as well as a religious idea. They also reject membership for those involved in occupations deemed to be "exploitive."
Loremaster, I moved the original Modern Ebionites section to the talk page just to keep things consistent. Some scholars that have published research on the Ebionites are familiar with the EJC, and I want to bring this point up during peer review. Ovadyah 23:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
A CRITICAL INVESTIGATION OF EPIPHANIUS' KNOWLEDGE OF THE EBIONITES: A TRANSLATION AND CRITICAL DISCUSSION OF 'PANARION' 30.* GLENN ALAN KOCH, /University of Pennsylvania/ < http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/query.cgi?field_1=lname&value_1=KOCH&field_2=fname&value_2=GLENN%20ALAN&advanced=1> Date: 1976 Ovadyah 15:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there a Consensus among Scholars supporting that artical that point of view? Do living Scholars out over ride the dead? NazireneMystic 21:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Historicly ALL references to the Ebionites claimed they accepted him as Messiah but this new group being promoted does not claim he was. In this section they try to dance around this and say not as potrayed in christian writing but indeed they do not accept him as a Messiah in any way. On the sites FAQ section Was Jesus Messiah its clear Jesus is potrayed as a failed Messiah. This section is not relevent to the Ebionite artical in any way. Read the FAQ it is clear they are not only sayings he was not Messiah as the christians potray him but that he plain wasnt and failed, In fact they call Jesus Messianic . Guess they think Jesus thought a messiah was comming. They proudly pronounce thier belief in Jesus's failed attempt. NazireneMystic 13:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Although you may be right, is James Tabor right or wrong when he says that ancient Ebionites held the following view:
-- Loremaster 14:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting question, this group calls spiritual concepts such as reincarnation, mystic visions, inner kingdoms..."Gnostic stuff" from the greeks.The above statment can not mean a literal kingdom on this earth as the two Messiahs are ruling in gods kingdom with the prophet after his rejection and DEATH. LOL The only way they could rule "WITH HIM" in Gods Kingdom after his "DEATH "is eather the inner spiritual kingdom OR a forced reading could mean the Prophet reincarnates. The modern group rejects both things as Gnostic stuff from the greeks. The above question you pose makes the case for spiritual Ebionites and supports the historic witness.
This is an important issue because not only should the group in question be held to the same contempt regarding notibility as the Spiritual Ebionites were and now archived as Talk:Ebionites/Neo-Ebionite but they should be relevant to the views of the notible Ebionites of the past. 64.12.117.14 15:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC) NazireneMystic 15:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I think your bias is leading you to jump to conclusions. The statement could easily be interpreted to mean that Jesus would be "revealed in power" when, whether it be 40 days or 2000 years later, he returns to fulfill the rest of Messianic prophecy by anointing his two Messiahs who would rule with in the kingdom of God on Earth. -- Loremaster 18:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
So you think the Ebionites view was simular to the christan view and the god-man jesus is returning? Remember the Ebionites also believed anyone that follows the law completey can also become the Christ/Messiah. I think your reading of that is more forced then mine. NazireneMystic 19:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Not at all. Jesus does not have to a be a "god-man" in order to return anymore than Elijah needs to be. Also, no one is disputing that Jesus could have become the Messiah. However, it seems that Ebionites believed that he was the Prophet like Moses, who is one of three messianic figures. -- Loremaster 13:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The title Neo- Ebionite was created by a very self serving POV and should be changed to reflect the actual title of the section that was once in the artical" Spiritual Ebionites" This is tipical of of the deception used by some editors NazireneMystic 19:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
If you are going to accuse me of a personal attack I think you should show evidence of such. I do not believe I have. I have assumed good faith in the past with you as can bee clearly seen in the archived talk pages. NazireneMystic 22:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This is objective discussion and shows how strong the pov in this artical is. Using any other term to discribe a section called spiritual ebionite is pov. at that time we went from being in the artical to not only being archived but not even given the correct name of the section. Calling the section Neo ebionites was a personal attack NazireneMystic 20:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think calling this section "Neo-Ebionite" was a personal attack. Even if it was, you can't change it otherwise the archive will be lost. Therefore, I've restored it's proper title. -- Loremaster 13:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Listen up Wikipedia Editors. I have read the archive section will be used in part of the peer review. OvadYah restored the so called Modern ebionite section and listed reasons way he found it relevent to the peer review and I restored the spiritual section as it was in the artical also and gave simular reasons. Then OvadYah deleted the spiritual section and said its archived and cant be unarchived till theres a concensus among the editiors. Is this true?? anyway why would it matter? Im not tring to restore it to the artical or the artical talk page. Im only tring to resotre it to an ARCHIVED page and the very spot that others are prepairing for peer review. Anyone with the ability to reason should read the edit history of the archived talk page and read what I restored compaired to the modern section that was also restored. The spiritual section was to be used to show articals written by Allan and linked to in the Spiritual section have even been used and reprinted by P.H.D.ed Scholars. If the Spiritual ebionites are going to peer review with our mouths taped and hands tied how is that not POV? You should carfuly be looking at whos doing these things. NazireneMystic 20:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The RFC was only for disputed NPOV in the spiritual Ebionite section and not for its notibility! Were did you people come from? NazireneMystic 10:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please post here a list of all published research on modern Ebionites? -- Loremaster 13:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Quoted from the website reluctant-messenger.com-"Dr. Stephen W. Boston, creator of www.reluctant-messenger.com, holds a Comparative Religion Ph.D., Biblical Studies M.A., and was a computer engineer for a major utility corporation prior to devoting efforts to spiritual research. He teaches The World Great Religions at a state university" This is a link to the artical [[ Biblical-Corruption by Allan Cronshaw]] NazireneMystic 23:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
NazireneMystic, I think I misunderstood your question.
HaHa, This is unbelieveable. My question was simple, short,and clear. So was your answer and I delievered as promised. We are not the ones with notibility problems nor are we short of matieral to back our position. All Ebionite related writings witness to us. But your point of view is that the other group need not show any notibility as was the case before we showed up. Not only that but they need not reflect the Ebionite matieral. That P.H.D.lost your respect because he doesnt support your point of view. NazireneMystic 02:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
You did very nice edits on Ebionites, but I strongly advise you to create your own page at Ebionite Restoration Movement where you will tread on fewer toes. Just click on the redlinked article and start writing / cut and pasting. You might still have problems with your writing style (I do advise you to read the preceeding links about Wikipedia writing style etc). When you are happy with the Ebionite Restoration Movement article we can link to it from the Ebionite page. --Michael C. Price talk 19:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nazirene"
I've created the following two articles and mentioned them in the See also section of the Ebionites article:
I suggest people who have a vested interest in these articles surviving a speedy deletion attempt or a full article for deletion debate not only watch over them but also improve and expand them. -- Loremaster 14:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I also suggest that people move any debate about these two religious groups to their respective talk pages.
The Talk:Ebionites talk page is only for discussing changes to the Ebionites article. -- Loremaster 14:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
As discussed back in August, I've gone ahead and nominated Ebionite Jewish Community and Ebionite Restoration Movement for deletion. -- Alecmconroy 21:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I see someones been busy editing the archived section. If your POV is shown during edit debates on the talk pages it must be easer to get it across after people quite adressing it. I even seeem to be missing replys I made back then.At least one I cant find, Glad my Good Faith wasnt abused NazireneMystic 20:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Well within the policy to be bold I reinserted the Ebionite restoration movement artical.
I thought they would be judged on thier merit and had no part in the prosses but after revewing the log the vote was made after Alecmconroy gave misleading information regarding the groups size and this seemed to effect the vote and the reason for deletion.once bringing up the notibility issue that was shown to be a non issue compaired to the ME group.
Once the notibility issue was asked to be judged with fair balance and with equal measures thats how both sections were first removed from the Ebionite artical.lol What could not be shown upfront was sneeked in the back door. NazireneMystic 02:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
While I, in "good faith" let what I thought would be unbiased editors to the deletion prossess without it seems Ovadyah and Alecmconroy were active meatpuppets in the discussion to delete the Ebionite Restoration Movement artical.
Both of them from the archived talk pages clearly know around 400 people are in our main fourm at any given time. We have around 6 other groups also.
The main one alone has more menbers the the other group. Alecmconroy , in the role of meatpuppet that the group had one or 2 members!
Ovadyah memtioned the mis- named neo-ebionite archives but failed to mention after we showed that our group was more notible in every aspect brought out in the prosses to exclude us then we both became subs and removed from the artical.
Another voter claimed outside of Allan's sites there in no memtion of the group at all. On my talk page I clearly have one site that takes almost a whole page attacking Allan, another site were a P.H.D.ed religous scholar reprints an artical Allan has written, and still another site were Were modern spiritual Ebionite writings are listed side by side with famous Christian and Jewish Mystics.
By contrast the evidence Ovadyah claims to be showing his group doesnt even mention them by name and does not show the writers of the articals he links to even know the name of the group or its plaiq I.E. President I.E.King.
Only the reference that used the past wikipedia "Ebionite" artical back when the artical was mainly a billboard for the EJC mentions the group but that realy dones mean anything since it was obtained from Wikipedia. NazireneMystic 16:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah,
Funny I didnt attack you but only showed what happened. If I was in error please show me how. If reality seems like apersonal attack on you I cant help you there. Feel free to report all you want NazireneMystic 19:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah,
Any reasonable person could not determin if being called deceitful, ignorant or diabolical or a meatpuppet is a personal attack untill it was looked into to see if this is so, it would be ignorant to do otherwise. Were the charges against Foley a personal attack? They surely would be if it were not true but in light of the evidence even his own party is not calling it a personal attack. NazireneMystic 17:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
LoreMaster,
Why should I be the only editor involved in this artical that is held to Wikipedia standards? Do you know the Ignorance I have had to put up with to this point? How about just the last day? After I followed Policy and restored the artical "boldly even", and that it was linked to the main ebionite artical it would be against wiki policy to speedily delete it. Our ever Honorable friend reported my justified undeletion as vandalism and then yet another briliant wikipedian honored the wooo "report" and went as far to tell me not to undelete the artical again. Siteing someone for not following wikipedia policy involved in this artical is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway NazireneMystic 19:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
In the Ebionite article there is a wonderful amount of early Christian works listed that have general support as describing Ebionite beliefs and then in the next section "history" we find this paragraph:
All these Christian sources agree that Ebionites denied the divinity of Jesus, the doctrine of the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, and the death of Jesus as an atonement. Ebionites seemed to have emphasized the humanity of Jesus as the mortal son of Mary and Joseph who became the messianic " prophet like Moses" when he was anointed with the holy spirit at his baptism. Sources also suggest that Ebionites believed all Jews and Gentiles must observe the Law of Moses; but it must be understood through Jesus' expounding of the Law, which he taught during his Sermon on the Mount. Therefore, of the books of the New Testament Ebionites only accepted an Aramaic version of the Gospel of Matthew, referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews, as additional scripture. This version of Matthew, critics reported, omitted the first two chapters (on the nativity of Jesus), and started with the baptism of Jesus by John.
After carefully reading these Christian sources I fail to find these Christian sources agreeing that:
....who became the messianic "prophet like Moses" when he was anointed with the holy spirit at his baptism. Sources also suggest that Ebionites believed all Jews and Gentiles must observe the Law of Moses; but it must be understood through Jesus' expounding of the Law, which he taught during his Sermon on the Mount. Therefore, of the books of the New Testament Ebionites only accepted an Aramaic version of the Gospel of Matthew, referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews, as additional scripture. This version of Matthew, critics reported, omitted the first two chapters (on the nativity of Jesus), and started with the baptism of Jesus by John....
In Reality no matter how bad of a personal attack it may seem. 1) the sources agree he was the Christ of God because no one else ever completely forfilled the law. 2) the reports of Ebionites beliefs regarding scripture was that their Gospel itself fully represented the whole of their faith. [I can get the quote if you but Im sure you have seen it and besides in the past actual quotes were deemed POV.lol ] 3) They believed the kanakh had falsehoods written into it and while they didn't need it they did not condom the Jews who were stuck on its literal words anymore then they condemned the Greeks who they claimed already corrupted the Gospel they had given them.
Of the above #2 and #3 have to deal with the first paragraph in the history section as well as the second one because James Tabor is in agreement with the early Christian writings regarding those topics. The second paragraph seems to be hinting that Tabor is in argument with the Christian sources when in fact he is not. Inserting "argues" instead of "agrees" is deceptive regardless of how much it seems to isolate the Christian witness and supports a certain POV.
After reading the history section of the Ebionite article I see at some point an editor reverted an edit that correctly states what the Christian sources said and noted that he was removing Gnostic Christian POV. So while you list the sources because most people would expect to see them the POV dominating this article will not allow what the sources actually state if they disagree with the articles featured group. this type of thinking seems to fit the description of cranks suffering from "discognitive dissonance" regarding the facts set before them. NazireneMystic 22:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are two quotations from Shlomo Pines manuscript, The Jewish Christians Of The Early Centuries Of Christianity According To A New Source, Proceedings of the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities II, No. 13 (1966) that shed light on the Ebionites:
Loremaster, that Abd al Jabbar's Messianics did not call themselves Ebionites and Jabbar himself didnt make the connection at bset it could be noted that Pines has a different view of Ebionites but to pick one view over the other to deside truth and narrow the scope of the artical doesnt sound very wikipedian to me NazireneMystic 20:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, after going through the second AfD and all that followed, I am now convinced this can only end one way. I have asked Jayjg to help out. Ovadyah 02:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the procedures required for mediation, I'm not sure this is the best course of action. Formal mediation requires that all parties be willing participants, and we don't have that situation here. Informal mediation may still be possible. The core problem is incivility, which Wikipedia defines as behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress. Ovadyah 21:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah, perhaps I can help in bringing a sense of calm to the exchange between NazireneMystic and the others here. I think one aspect that has contributed to the charged atmosphere is the sense that as soon as anyone that is not of the Jewish Ebionite mindset that you endorse contributes to the article their contribution is quickly deleted and charged with trespassing on your turf. If we can come to some understanding about how to contribute in a respectful manner the Truths we know and can back up with citations without being treated as terrorists then I think we can build a reasonable article without the stress you are feeling. You must come to accept though that not all Ebionites subscribe to Jewish ideas. Even from the beginning, respectfully, the Ebionites were Hebrew but they were closer to what is represented in scripture as Israelites rather than Jews. The important thing is that we collectively work together to represent an objective article on the Ebionites that is sufficiently complete to give the readers an understanding of the diverse schools of thought on Ebionites so that they can seek within themselves the Truth of the matter. Are we able to find a way forward as children of YHVH without the need of putting ourselves before the judgment of men? If so I believe NazireneMystic would be agreeable to liaising with me offline so that we are able to forward a predetermined consensus. -- EbioniteOfTheWay 13:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, think about a short-list of editors that are knowledgeable about this topic that you can accept for third-party commentary if it comes to that. Please bring your suggestions to my talk page. Ovadyah 00:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree incivility is a big problem but its root is in the fact you delete any edits that do not support your group and promote your narrow point of view. In times past one scholar listed in the article has come here and posted suggestion of which it would be hard to find any remaining evidence of by reading the main Ebionite article even after he contributed to the talk page LoreMaster first received them well. Then the incivility thats marred the history of this article showed its face again. How can mediation work when such a dominating point of view surpessess any evidence that is contrary?
Who do you think Loremaster should invite to mediation that will agree that while scholars disagree on the issue the article should be written in a manor to discount those against Ovadyah's point of view? Would that not be deciding truth? That doesn't sound very Wikipedia like. The Fact is there is evidence pointed in more then one direction.
Some of the scholars you like so much use the Dead Sea Scrolls to support some of their theories but a few scholars that worked on the scrolls came away with different prospective. One when as far as to say that the John's gospel, long thought to be the most "Hellenistic," could no longer be looked at that way and its framework could be found directly on Palestinian soil.
If we are going to explore different early Christian witnesses will we be able to mention in the artical that regardless if they were second century accounts or fourth century accounts they all say he became the Christ/messiah by being the first to totally forfill the law and when they "Ebionites" also Forfill the law they to become Christ/Messiah's or will this as in the past be deemed Gnostic Christian POV. Will you shop for people with a certain POV like during the peer review and who claimed that there is no evidence of The spiritual Ebionite existence outside of its own group when my talk page shows otherwise?
Wikilawyering can turn any resolution process against its intentions so as long as evidence is going to be surpressed or attacked for the reasons already mentioned by both you and Loremaster:
"As Ovadyah has suggested elsewhere, despite the deletion of the Ebionite Restoration Movement stub, a more general article about modern Ebionites should be considered with the Ebionite Jewish Community paragraph as a subset. Some suggestions for titles are "Modern Ebionite Movements" or "Ebionite Restoration Movements" or "Ebionism in Modern Times". Hopefully the AfD debate narrows the scope of the article so that we don't have to deal with cranks calling themselves Ebionites. -- Loremaster 16:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)"
This is the root of the incivility about this artical. The implcations of an NPOV artical would leave you dealing with people you disagree with. NazireneMystic 20:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, I was feeling very hopeful yesterday, but I am back to being convinced this can only end one way. Let's discuss. Ovadyah 22:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, any thoughts on the ERM reference in the article and third-party intervention? Ovadyah 22:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I have spoken with NazireneMystic and he is happy to let me coordinate discussion as discussed above. I propose we delete this section and start again. I was hoping to move forward with preparing a scoping section to add to the talk page. Is this acceptable to everyone? -- EbioniteOfTheWay 01:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Please Don't fix, since the article on both the Ebionites and the Ebionite Jewish Community represents a typical suppression of both historical facts and quotes, and the castration of reference materials because of political pressure. I have begun to use the suppression of the facts as an example of how references resoureces are castrated in order to suppress the Truth which you can review at http://TheThreeLies.com#TrueProphet This is an important lesson for seekers of Truth to recognize, and I can therefore use this article and the main Ebionite article of a prime example of this fact and reality. -- Nazirene -- Nazirene 13:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The Ebionites and Ebionite Jewish Community articles and talk pages may be bugged with some kind of Trojan Horse. My user talk page is affected as well. It looks like some kind of redirect, judging by the warning messages I am seeing. I'm having WP:AN/I look into it. I wonder who has an interest in the Ebionites and EJC articles and my talk page combined with the technical expertise to do such a thing? Ovadyah 21:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I seem to have lost control of my NazireneMystic account. I changed a passward and forgot it but then I tried to get a new one send to my registered Email it never showed up and now I would have to wait a day to try again so I made up this one.
In the history section this sentence is totaly POV and should be removed as it has no justification "whether or not his claims are accurate" That could be placed in front of every source in the artical. who in the world edited that sentence in? LOL
Since we are going as far as list one scholars wild therory the Clement writings are Gnostic Christian I believe to attempt to present a NPOV I will add the ideas Hans Joachim Schoeps presents in his reviewed work: "Aus fruhchristlicher Zeit: Religionsgeschichtliche Untersuchungen " were he states the Clementine materals nearest parallels are to be found in the book of "Jubilees" and "Ehoch". His entire work is not on line but I found a nugget or to here http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-9231%28195203%2971%3A1%3C58%3AAFZRU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N&size=LARGE
Since we know this materal is very populous among the dead sea scroll fragments. SpiritualEbionite 09:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I just looked over the rest of the artical and it seems since ive been gone a darkness has come over the artical. Someone seems to have nailed "Epiphanius of Salamis" to the cross while ive been away. SpiritualEbionite 09:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster,
I think you are going have to explain yourself a little better then that. My adition was writen in a NPOV mannor. My " Schoeps " adition did not counter Pines but just gave credit to the clementine writings your current artical is trying to discredit. Schoeps is listed in the sources section . I cant help it if this does not support your point of view and I do not see any reason slant the artical and keep opinons of this scholar supressed in order to keep the artical somewhat in line with the EJC doctorines. A NPOV artical presents the facts,Wikipedia is not an experiment in socialism were a week, unsupported point of view is given creditbiliy by hindering evidence regarding the topic of the artical. Takeing from the pro clementine camp to support your anti clementine view is a form of wikipedian welfare. You do not own this artical. I would call your revert of my NPOV edit vandalism. Instead of a well written artical is seem people here waht to build a house of cards that looks sound from a quick glance but quickly falls apart under careful observation SpiritualEbionite 20:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Adding Pines without giving the pinion of Schoeps does not make the artical NPOV as you contend. Pines brings up the point that the source is not from the Jewish thought but rather from greek thought by calling it Gnostic christian. The unknowing might be lead to believe this. Schoeps clears this misconception up and shows the spiritual concepts come directly from a Hebrew mindset. SpiritualEbionite 20:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
LoreMaster,
Fair enough. Your edit makes it read better to. I do like the title of the work, I can not pronounce but thought it looked good in the artical.LOL SpiritualEbionite 20:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Only someone wanting to hide Wikipedialawyering and the real root of the incivility involved in working on this artical would be activly reverting ongoing discussion of the Ebionite artical into four seperate archives as to place things people say in obscure places and out of order with the time line and topic they were first posted in. I am not saying names and and in no way attacking anyone. Just for the record this edit first appeared on the ebionite talk page long after the Spiritual Ebionites that were mis-named neo-Ebionites section was removed from the artical. That the spiritual Ebionite section was removed and susposed resolved was the reason given to seperate it from the main archive But ongoing discussions on the Ebionite artical that present problems to the POV dominating the artical are still presently being revverted to mis-maned neo-Ebionte section. The truth has nothing to hide so why have so many highly regarded Wikipedia Admins that have been eyeing this artical not taken action regarding these practices? SpiritualEbionite 23:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I recently heard from a source that Shemayah Phillips was hacked and had a hard drive wiped out on one of his computers, resulting in considerable damage to his business. Clearly, there is a malevolent individual or group out there with advanced computer knowledge that won't hesitate to use it for destructive purposes. I don't know if this attack is related to the previous funny business I observed on these pages, but I would advise everyone working on the article to set up a double firewall to guard against similar mischief. Ovadyah 20:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Ovadyah I see you butchered the artical quite well along with further vandalsim of the talk page. Does the POV editor you shoped for out weight the scholars I mentioned? While I think its silly, Wikipedia , or at least the religous and political POV's dominating the artical, have set a standard that only scholars with peer reviewed articals written about "Ebionite " by name are source materal. How is pleasing Rubenstein's request out weight the Scholars that meet this requirment? How can Ebionite's been literaly torah observant when they believed it had been falsified? How can you deny Ebionites believed they to become christ/messiah when they forfill the law when Peer reviewed scholars writing about ebionites say the very mind set in clementine writings YOU claim are Gnostic can be traced to earlier Hebrew text? With Scholars contrary to your paragraph listed as sources in the artical you out right lied publishing that all the while not adressing the very jewishness of inner revelation and a prexistant soul that evolves to perfection over many lives. You claim the very lack of such Jewish sources shows the Clementine writings are Gnostic which is funny since many scholars that out weight you say the Clementine writings attack Christian Gnostism. You realy dont have a clue as to what the scholars were pointing out just as you dont have a clue as to what an Ebionite is.
This is just keeping consistant with your M.O. From the deceptions from this talk page like:
Shalom Loremaster,
This is a big thing to ask that I assume good faith regarding OvadYah. This editor has been quite deceptive during this enite debate. First he was attempting to pass as a NPOV a few archived pages ago but I do not believe this can any longer be hid. Look at the exchange that took place right before you asked me to assume "good faith" were he states:
"I have never heard of Shemayah Phillips claiming for himself more than the title of Paqid, which is basically a secretary or clerk. By contrast, the claims of your leader are exceedingly pretentious, and he was also excommunicated -- from the Ebionite Jewish Community. I guess that's why you folks loathe Shemayah so much huh?
Given this statment what would you understand it to mean? I went to his site and searched for the term "Paqid" it says the term is irrelevent and it realy means "President" not only that but this office of President can be handed down to sucsessors like a Monarchy. This offices makes him the desider of all things Ebionite[in his little world]. This sounds like a type of "Priory of Sion" situation given Yeshua said to not even call another man teacher but all should be taught by the christ I.E. "Anointing",which by the way has nothing to do with oil being poured on your head.
In the above statment he tries to minumize this and then call Allan my "leader". All I can say is ive been in Allans fourms for over 3 years and hes never ordered anyone to do anything.
Then he says Allan was Excommunicated or some nonsence like that. Wouldnt you have to be converted before your excommunicated? If the EC will tell you of "Ebionites proper" if asked regarding someones standing as thier President says at his site then they must have records of the rituals practised at converson like circumsision. I would LOVE to see reconds of that converson. This editor is relating the joining of a online fourm to being converted to thier religion.If you are kicked off the fourm your"Excommunicated". In that sence one of the wikipedia Editors is now a member in autoplasty from our group because one joined and then left. read my talk page and see the person that asked to join, he joinded shortly afterward he asked me to accept him to the fourm and then he left in a few days. If you message him and ask I dought he thinks he ever converted and accepted Allan as a "Leader" I dought he would think he did.LOL However this is the type foolishness directed as us im to take with good faith.
I did assume good faith when I called him ignorant because if these things were knowingly done it would be diobolical.NazireneMystic 22:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Loremaster"
Well when Allan wrote a a section on Spiritual Ebionite in the same matter of fact mannor that the suspose EJC section was written in you called for a RFC on the grounds the spiritual section was POV however it was in the same style of your presidents group. Then the RFC raised the issue of notibility but in every case after we showed we met the standard he would set forth more so then your group both sections were droped ,subs were made of each, and You not only acted as a meatpuppet but invited a high ranking admin that total ignored the facts and even published a lie to support his vote, You and Alechemy did the same thing. None from our camp stooped as low as to bring a bised vote into your groups articals of deletion review let along invite people and lie about the facts. Do you remember this? First let me get a few facts from my talk page then we can look into the articals of deletion log on the Ebionite Restoration Movement, hows that?
Keep in mind alchemy had joined our group for about two days and knows first hand at any time about 400 people are memebers and a large core regularly contribute to the discussions
1) An entire page from a religous site actualy calling Allan by name and condeming us.The writer seems to not be discerning enough to understand what Peter contended with Simon Maguns over and links any spiritual concepts to him. religous group You can't make this stuff up.
2) P.H.D'ed religous scholars reprinting[with permition] Allan's articals. Artical by Allan Cronshaw
3) While records of the time show civil disobedence by Ebionites and early Christians no evidence shows it was done in the name of the Jewish state or the name of religion, Just as Yeshua said the truth will set you free, living thruth in your life will set you apart from the rest of the people on earth. The type of disobedence was not nationalist,socialist or communistic but rather aposing ignorance just as the Yeshua did, Based on truth. Different times,same spirit. fighting ignorance This is a link to court papers of a constitutional challange and evidence of endemic criminal corruption in the N.Y. court system.
4)If you understand why the Ebionites did not expect Jesus to return and rule the world and still call him Messiah after his death you understand the kingdom is purely spirital in nature. This site has spiritual Ebionite writings along side famous christian and jewish mystics like Max Heindel and Yonassan Gershom. Ebionite writings.
In light of my facts found through simple searches can any of you explain yourselves? Can you justify an artical in wikipedia on the EJC when you lawyered us out of an artical? Go look at Ovadyah talk page at his mountian high house of cards evidence. I dont see any of the people in the articals he is linked to even know of his President or his group. There are a few sites mirrored from past versons of the wikipedian articals that were a soapbox for that group but other then that not much at all. I should mention in all fairness one site I did find called called Ovadyah 's president a X-Baptist preacher. Is this all the notibility that was required?
We even had one of the scholars listed as source matieral come had give a list of sugestions of which Loremaster said he was happy to have but Ovadyah discredited him, Hmmm Maybe he is realy the EJC king himself? He sure thinks he is the desider of all things Ebionite and leads Loremaster around like a dog. NazireneMystic 21:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
LoreMaster,
Feel free to do what ever you want a try but manybe you should take the advise I left another Editor on my page when he accused me of attacking him. What is it you are claiming insulted you? If it was me saying you placed my edit in a section that was different then I posted in then please refure to DIFF 12:19, 12 November 2006 . Of course this has already been denied by you but there it is.
If it was refuring to being lead like a dog by Yah I dont have the time to dig through the archived pages to find our chat about science and how you prove modern sicence in that the thoughts of the experimentor can change the outcome of the Experiment after which you agreed you cant tell when you write in a POV mannor. You will also find in the archived past a list of Keith's sugestions that you seemed happy to apply untill Yah LEAD you in the direction of his POV. I dont think you can help it much and realy have been the most level headed Wikipedian ive meet that has been active in this artical while I have been hear whoever thats not saying much. One think slubinstine's comments is that a strong point of the artical names many big names as sources. Its a shame that Yah opening paragraph is at odds with at least Three of the listed Scholars however its writen in a mannor that would make the reader think all these sources agree to that POV paragraph. I have also joined the EJC online community. Its very interesting. Not that numbers mater to me like they seemed to matter to the meat puppets in the deletion hearings which can been seen at diff: 21:19, 12 November 2006 but this group is rather small.The EJC wikipedian artical as well as thier web site claim his movement GREW into this online community. Well with 50 members I would hate to see its size before this explosive growth. The only peron that can post messages appears to be the plaiq / King/ Desider of all things. Yah has turned out to be be like the wizard of OZZ with all his susposed evidence but only you pull back the curtian theres just a little man pulling a bunch of levers. NazireneMystic 20:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Loremaster, explain yourself for your revert to the artical. You are favoring speculation over your source material. I see wikipedians love to stuff words in other people moughts then the source material doesnt fit thier POV. At least remove the scholar from the list of sources so it doesnt appear he supports the foolishness being published in the Ebionite artical. NazireneMystic 17:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The only short statment allowed to stand in the artical regarding Schoeps is " The influence of Ebionites is debated. Schoeps argues that their primary influence on mainstream Christianity was to aid in the defeat of gnosticism"
Since the concepts in the clementine writing wikipedians seem to get confused with simon magnus's gnosticism. You seem to favor publishing blantant lies and of course Yah does, that goes with out saying.
I have looked hard to find some of schopes work in public domain but most of it can only be seen buy research groups. This is all I could find and shows the spiritual concepts expressed in the clementine writings are rooted in Hebrew thought. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-9231%28195203%2971%3A1%3C58%3AAFZRU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N&size=LARGE
In the past sources not being public domain was a reason given on these talk pages to exclude information and has lead editors to include as a link the outdated bitanica artical on Ebionites. In view of recent evidence birtanica a much more accurate discription.
"Most of the features of Ebionite doctrine were anticipated in the teachings of the earlier Qumran sect, as revealed in the Dead Sea Scrolls. They believed in one God and taught that Jesus was the Messiah and was the true "prophet" mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:15. They rejected the Virgin Birth of Jesus, instead holding that he was the natural son of Joseph and Mary. The Ebionites believed Jesus became the Messiah because he obeyed the Jewish Law. They themselves faithfully followed the Law, although they removed what they regarded as interpolations in order to uphold their teachings, which included vegetarianism, holy poverty, ritual ablutions, and the rejection of animal sacrifices. The Ebionites also held Jerusalem in great veneration."
So my question is were in the public domain can I find that Schoeps argues that their primary influence on mainstream Christianity was to aid in the defeat of gnosticism besides here on wikipedia and sites that mirror it?
This artical is full of garbage like this. You have built a true house of cards. NazireneMystic 18:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems Birtanica has expanded the public domain portion of their Ebionite artical. Since the fossilized adition linked to the wikipedia Ebionite artical could not consider discoveries made at later dates this updated version would prove to be a much more accurate resourse to link to. Cheers! http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9031860/Ebionite NazireneMystic 19:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
So you can not find anything to support it?
Are thoes the only people that think articals should be backed with verifiable references?
you have not given one "Verifiable" citation for gospel of barnabas or the Schoeps reference. Sir I think you should do more research and learn to write a good artical before nominating one.
How can any reader Verify any of the information you have given so far?
Logging in only mask your IP adress so I realy do not understand your point.
I checked and that user is not blocked and was not blocked during my earlier edits. Has that user in the past asked for citations also?