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I wrote this for the Arbitration page, but have posted it here since it would appear from the rules that once a statement has been made there it should not lead into a discussion. It is in reply to Michael C. Price
DBachman's opinion (and it has weight),now cited by Michael Price, that this article may suffer from WP:OWN, referred to Ovadyah's requests for precise documentation on a specific argument. However, Since Ovadyah's requests have since been shared by several other people, the WP:OWN cannot surely apply to Ovadyah (I hardly think 'collective ownership' is the point here, either, since those same editors frequently disagree among themselves, but have managed to achieve a consensual mode of editing). If anything WP:OWN could bear on Michael C.Price's ultramontane defence of a passage he has admitted was a synthetic construction based partially on his own inferences, precisely the point made by all others party to this dispute. Secondly, Michael C Price's complaints about the reduction, over time, of Tabor and Eisenman's presence, and his defence of his editing as an attempt to achieve balance by reincorporating them, appear to ignore, for want of a better word, the problems of fancruft, to which indeed the same DBachman alludes on his homepage as a problem. Nishidani 11:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
ps.I do not personally think your problem is 'bad faith'. I think the problem is you have not the slightest idea of why other editors challenge you, and you do not understand standard methods of historical analysis, involving the balanced sifting of evidence, the attribution of primary weight stringently to the evidence, and what it can and cannot allow us to infer from it. Eisenman rewrites the evidence speculatively because he considers the primary evidence doctored, and imagines a different story to the one narrated, and therefore has to be handled with extreme scruple. Tabor instead goes far far beyond what little evidence we have. Technically, the two, though accomplished scholars, hazard hypotheses that fail, to use an idea you once cited, Popper's verifiability criteria (note in particular that the radiocarbon evidence Eisenman pressed for, when done, contradicted his own beliefs. What did he do? He challenged the results and methods. Popper used to have a field day with that kind of gamesmanship). Nishidani 11:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Michael C. Price. You don't seem to understand anything here at this point. As someone, who, despite a critical awareness of the extreme difficulties and technical dangers in Eisenman's approach, was fascinated years ago by his hypothesis, I entered this Talk Page to mediate on your behalf, showing a willingness to give your take on that work a solid hearing. I did not interfere with the page, except to correct a spelling anomaly. Wiki policy on editing refers to rules of drafting the page, and therefore if you accuse me of violating one - content judgement - that in no way affects those who have worked on the page, or the controversial passage, since I haven't touched it. What I did was to give you a thumbnail sketch of why many authorities in the world of Biblical criticism consider Eisenman's hypothesis an unreliable source or at best, one to be handled with extreme caution. I expounded these considerations on this talk page. I did this because you do not seem to know (1)where Eisenman is coming from (2) as proven, you misinterpreted his text, understandably so since even the best of critics have difficulty in parsing its meaning and its implications, and (3) you ignore, in calling Eisenman's work something that represents the 'tip' (cusp) of a considerable hermeneutic consensus, Eisenman's own affirmation that his work does not represent a 'consensus:-
Almost everything in the book, from the restoration of James to his rightful place . . to the elucidation of the Dead Sea Scrolls in a manner at odds with dominant scholarly comsenses, will occur outside the traditional or received order.' Eiseman,James the Brother of Jesus p.xxxvi
Here you have Eisenman explicitly admitting that his work runs in the face of scholarly consensus, (2) that scholarly elites (the consensus) have dominated a docile public and that (3) he trusts in a knowledgeable and enlightened public to break the scholarly consensus, implicitly in this last affirmation (ibid) by using the enlightenment his anti-consensual POV provides them in order to break the bonds imposed on them, as a docile public, by a long tradition of accomplished scholars. This is Eisenman's POV, that his book is a fringe theory designed to convince a docile readership to challenge the standard authorities in the field. You have risen to the bait, taking up the banner of a 'non-consensual' theory to challenge the 'docile public' of other editors caught up in the magical thrall of mainstream scholarship, being yourself neither a trained hand at the subject nor someone (see the record) who actually understands the problems and implications of Eisenman's work.
Eisenman has the intellectual courage to assert his ideas are wholly out of whack with the scholarly consensus of the subject. All your critics in here take him at his word. You do not. You keep insisting he is at the forefront ('tip' ) of a growing scholarly consensus which includes Keith Akers (a vegetarian who knows nothing about the subject), Larson (sp.) who had a degree in English literature and wrote for Parade Magazine on a field he had no academic training in, long before this book by Eisenman was published. Like you I am personally intrigued by his thesis. Unlike you, I take to heart the comments of those many authorities in Eisenman's field, the Geza Vermes, Antony Saldarinis and others, who document the errors, oversights, methodological incoherencies, who reviewing him as a peer write that 'his conclusions are improbable, his arguments incoherent and his prose impossible,' and warn the reading public against a naive embrace of what is a fringe theory. Unlike you, I do not run to the Wiki rule book to try and justify myself. I simply, on the talk pages, try to tell you to shake off the spell of enchantment by looking at the larger literature, and to take into serious consideration the challenges which a scholarly consensus has laid in Eisenman's way. What you object to as an illegal 'judgement of content' in my remarks on this Talk Page' dialogue I have endeavoured to make with you, is nothing more than an objection to what Eisenman himself says, which I paraphrase, and what his major critics say, which I also paraphrase. That you should find it objectionable that someone on a talk page should remind you of what Eisenman thinks, and his critics say, and that you should atribute both opinions to me as a judgement of source content instead of being a construal of the state of the academic debate, shows once more that you grasp for straws, using an 'ad hominem' argument to undermine the pertinence for the page you are drafting of what the 'scholarly consensus' (not mine) says on Eisenman, a consensus which, greatest of all ironies, Eisenman readily recognizes Nishidani 09:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
(A note on what follows. It replies to the following remark by Michael Price which is substantially shorter than the text above, which was reelaborated after my comment below. Unless this is clear, the talk will become nonsensical. He wrote:-
No, this wikilawyering won't work either. I am not on the record as advising that 'content be removed' from the article. I am on the record as asking you to get your personal syntheses to respect the evidence and the distinct views of scholars instead of manipulating them in a personal POV of the argument. Tabor and Eisenman of course stay on the page, but not in the way you have engineered their views to appear as identical and thus to create the false impression of a 'consensus' in what are independent fringe theories (the ostensible aim, my inference, being to undermine the prevailing academic consensus).
I am on the record as analysing why that content, as you phrased it, was a personal synthesis (violating wiki policy) you made of two distinct theories, in which you conflated, on the basis of personal inferences or OR (violating wiki policy) books, attributing the views of one scholar, Tabor, to another, Eisenman. At this point, I suggest you just take a deep breath and review the record for the arguments of substance, and not 'frig' about in this pettifogging manner. You have allowed that what what you did was a synthesis based on personal inferences. Now you are trying to invalidate my analysis (on the talk page) and therefore retain on the Ebionism page a conflation you virtually concede was an illegitimate synthesis of the OR variety.
Your second point is incomprehensible. Nishidani 10:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Str1977 (talk) 11:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
In reply to Michael C Price's second version of his recent post.
This increasingly sounds like washerwomen backbiting over the fence. Your altered post in no way addresses my points. You are attempting to introduce a wider argument I have not commented on, to insinuate I am disputing 'Essene influences on early Christian origins.' The intent, apparently, is to sweep under the carpet and hide from view the argument I made, which you partially accepted, that in the specific passage disputed, you make an OR synthesis. This is not the place for Hyde Park oratorical oneupmanship, but for specific points addressed correctly.
'Vermes whom you so adore'. I don't 'adore' any scholar. I love scholarship, and yes, I dislike blow-ins from pseuds' corner like Keith Akers being smuggled into an article that gives rightful place to scholars of distinguished intellectual accomplishment, like Vermes, and Eisenman. It's like citing Charlie Chaplin's views on de Vere as the author of Shakespeare's works. Nishidani 10:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
(Since we have finally a full house consensus, reflecting both Michael's willingness to post his material, and our readiness to analyse its relation to the disputed section with him, I propose this new section, where, if I am not mistaken, the natural procedure would be to:
(1) paste in the disputed passage
(2) Below, for each footnote to the disputed passage in the Ebionism text, are to be placed the page references to both Tabor and Eisenman, on which each affirmation in the text rests
(3) For each footnote, the relevant text in both authors is to be supplied.
Over to you then Michael.
Nishidani 20:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Please note that almost all of the discussion from the talk page section on Mediation to this one was just to get the page numbers for one literature citation. This is what I mean by ceaseless edit-warring and an obdurate refusal to edit consensually. It is a flagrant example of bad faith editing by Michael Price. Now that we finally have the page numbers, I am repeating my request for specific content.
I have read over the citations several times and I don't see what is being claimed. Four editors are requesting specific evidence, and you are adamantly unwilling to provide it. Why do you persist in your refusal to provide the evidence needed to verify of your statements? Ovadyah 12:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The disputed material has not been sourced adequately, as per statements from knowledgeable parties above. On that basis I am now formally requesting that we attempt to determine consensus here. The specific question is whether we have cause to remove the inadequately sourced material from the article to the talk page, until and unless adequate sourcing for that material is provided. Please answer below by affixing your signature to the appropriate section.
I have tagged those source citations which are not yet sufficient with the {{ page number}}, which is the template which most closely approximates the required information for each citation, which is the specific quote from the relevant text. Better evidence will be produced or the text which these citations support will be eligible for removal. Considering that this information has already been challenged repeatedly, I believe one week is more than sufficient time for the relevant quotations to be produced, or the citations and the content they support will be removed. Also, for what it's worth, the entry from the Encyclopedia of Religion is from the "Ebionites" article. If anyone has a better understanding than I do of reference formatting, they are more than welcome to add that information. John Carter 19:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
in my experience, in a deadlock such as this one, there is no way forward except patient addressing of each point separately. Instead of theoretically discussing over the ways of attributing a point, pick the first point treat it as a case study. Thus, I see "page number required" for the claim
I might add that the "despite" is already a clear attempt at spinning in my view. The author seems to want to convey the opinion that it is somehow ironic that the Ebionites were marginalized because they "possibly" remained closer to the historical teachings of Jesus. Now quite apart from this matter of stylistics (I can see how it could be argued that it is ironic, but this would be due to a lack of understanding of Pauline Christianity and the importance of Pentecost: Pauline Christianity has very little to do with the historical Jesus, and this will only seem "ironical" to Protestants or naive secularists), what are the sources given?
here we have two books, judging from their title one polemic against Paul, and one sensationalist treatise from the height of the hype surrounding the "Dead Sea Scrolls". No page number. I can well believe that these authors make such statements of the Ebionites, but these are evidently authors with an agenda. We can say "some authors" (Maccoby, Eisenman) made the claim. We can even say "some scholars", if these books received scholarly reviews. To hide the polemic behind a mere "possibly", and then not even giving a precise location where the claim was made is unacceptable. My conclusion is, the statement in question as it stands is tendentious and argumentative, and either needs better attribution or needs to go. -- dab () 12:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
googling for five minutes, I find the following: Howard Bream, The Journal of Religion (1952): review of H. J. Schoeps, Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums (1949), p.58:
I present this as an example that one brief google search can replace pages and pages of debate. This establishes that the possibility has been voiced in respectable literature, and the reference I cite is orders of magnitude more useful than just gesturing towards two rather suspect tomes. Now, please do the same for the remaining citation request, or, I suppose, you have to accept their being removed pending attribution. -- dab () 13:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone else concerned that the page numbers are not being added individually, but are ss often as not rather "bulk" citations. As an example, see footnote 32, which refers to no less than 12 pages, and 31, which appears to only limit the quotation to somewhere in 30 consecutive pages. What was being requested was not only a page number but rather a citation of exactly where in the book the statement upon which the content is based was found. I do not see, unless the writer repeated himself rather a lot, that this necessarily meets the requirements. John Carter 14:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
look: does Eisenman, or does he not, specifically state that he believes the Ebionites held Simeon to be Jesus' brother? If so, on which page? If not, cobbling the conclusion together from a dozen pages is WP:SYN. Now, we may well ask on what grounds Eisenman believes that. Maybe there is an unambiguous statement to the effect in some primary source? If so, quote that. If the argument is synthetic (Eisenman's synthesis, not ours), the details of the argument might go to Simeon of Jerusalem since they are not really relevant here. The same goes for John's vegetarianism. Here, apparently, Eisenman's argument is synthetic. There will still be some specific location where he draws the conclusion. Tracing his argument based on Slavonic Josephus and what not is hardly relevant here, and may find a home on John the Baptist. dab () 15:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Str1977 (talk) 16:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
you realize, of course, that it would be up to you to quote the relevant passage? it transpires that you just copied a bunch of pages from the book's index, that even taken together they do not substantiate your claim, that the question addressed by Eisenman is never did the Ebionites believe S. was the brother of J., but whether they were "in fact" brothers. This is obviously a case of misattribution, and I propose that your other claims will be reviewed very carefully in the light of this precedent. Some of the passages quoted may have some relevance to Simeon of Jerusalem, but nothing I see here is relevant to this article, at all. I do hope you take away the lesson that it is your job to present a passage where the author makes the claim you say he makes, and that you cannot expect other editors to do your work for you. dab () 17:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The entry in the Encyclopedia of Religion refers to the evidence for the Ebionites being scattered from the middle of the second century to the middle of the fifth. I'm not sure that the last such evidence is directly contemporary, however. John Carter 15:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
then we can hardly claim they "lived in and around Judea and Palestine from the 1st to the 5th century". Theodoret in the 430s or so tells us they had disappeared. Obviously, we don't know if that happened before or after AD 400, or even if some of them were still lurking around in AD 450, or AD 500 for that matter, unbeknownst to Theodoret. dab () 17:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
looking around for scholarly reception of Eisenman, I find his book is called "eccentric" by J. K. Elliott, Novum Testamentum (1999). These reviews [2] [3] are enthusiastic, but also further drive home the eccentric nature of the work. I conclude from this that Eisenman's views should be given due space, but that they need to be treated separate, clearly marked as "Eisenman's eccentric but brilliant revisionism", and not dispersed among the mainstream discussion. dab () 17:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
true, I too remain sceptical of such groundbreaking feats. But I think we can assume notability for Eisenman sufficient for his own section, where we can present his hypothesis for whatever it is worth. -- dab () 07:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone consider the page citations which have been added to be sufficient, given the failure of the person who added the citations to even include a directly relevant citation in the one instance already examined? If not, what else would need to be done for this content to qualify as verified according to WP:V rules? John Carter 22:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Let's retrieve the relevant quotes from p.62 and p.69 of James the Brother of Jesus and go through the formal excercise of falsifying Michael's conclusions (again). Ovadyah 22:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I reproduce the quote from p.69 again with the relevant clause in bold.
For his part, Josephus is anxious to portray the Jews as burning down their own Temple and Titus as doing everything he can to quench the flames. In this manner he rescues Titus from the charge of impiety or Temple desecration, so important to a people as superstitious as the Romans. It is easy to recognize in Josephus' presentation of Titus the presentation of the behavior of Pontius Pilate and Herod towards Messianic leaders such as Jesus and John the Baptist in the Gospels - not surprisingly, since all these documents were produced by similar mindsets under similar constraints.
— Eisenman, James the brother of Jesus, p.69
Please note the complete context surrounding this phrase. Ovadyah 22:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I reproduce the quote from p.62 placed by Nishidani, again with the relevant clauses in bold.
Josephus also clarifies the reason for John's execution, as opposed to the more mythologized one encountered in the Gospels. Mark 6:20 even had Herod taking John for a "Righteous Man" (that is a Zaddik)!. . . .Herod, consequently, feared that John would lead an uprising and decided to have him executed . . .This execution, as in the case of Jesus, James and quite a few of these Messianic or 'opposition' leaders - for instance James and Simon, the two sons of Judas the Galilean - was a preventative one.
This is the demythologized John.— Eisenman, James the brother of Jesus, p.62
I would appreciate it if someone else would verify from the source document that the quotes I have placed here are accurate and that there is sufficient surrounding context before we begin the analysis. Ovadyah 22:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll begin the discussion with the citation on p.62. Eisenman claims that the portrait of John the Baptist we have from the gospels is mythologized. Referring instead to Josephus, he describes John as a righteous Zaddik whom Herod feared would lead an uprising. Eisenman goes on to describe John as one of many Messianic, and clarifying, 'opposition' leaders, along with Jesus, James, and the two sons of Judas the Galilean, who were executed for insurrection. Here, Eisenman is describing John as being one of a class of opposition leaders, that he terms "Messianic leaders", ie. those who led, or the ruling authorities feared would lead, an insurrection. Are we ok so far? Ovadyah 12:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Michael C. Price talk 14:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Now for the citation on p.69. Here Eisenman again refers to Josephus, but this time argues that his portrait of Titus and the destruction of the Temple is a mythologized apologetic for the Romans. Referring back to his comments on p.62, he argues that this process of mythologizing is similar to what was done with the "Messianic leaders", such as Jesus and John, in the gospels. He reinforces this point by stating that "all these documents were produced by similar mindsets under similar constraints". Is there anything in dispute about this summary of Eisenman's words in quotes? Ovadyah 12:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the summary given above was accurate and that "John as Messiah figure" is a) not in Eisenman, b) not meriting inclusion. Str1977 (talk) 18:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. What Michael has attempted to do is to selectively isolate the phrase "Messianic leaders such as Jesus and John the Baptist" from it's context to support his Taborite theory that John the Baptist was the Aaronic Messiah of the Essenes. To pull off this magic trick:
1. We must not be allowed to consider any of the surrounding context on p.69, and that Eisenman was comparing Josephus' apologetics about Titus back to the apologetics in the gospels he mentioned on p.62.
2. We must not consider that the term "Messianic leader" was already defined by Eisenman on p.62, as an opposition leader, and that John the Baptist was described as one of many such opposition leaders.
3. We must accept uncritically that Eisenman believes the Ebionites regarded JTB to be a Messiah (I didn't notice the Ebionites mentioned anywhere, did you?)
4. We must accept a priori that John the Baptist was an Essene to tie back to Tabor's theory.
5. We must accept a priori that the Essenes are the same as the Ebionites to tie all of this mumbo jumbo to the Ebionites.
It is a massive web of synthesis and a gross violation of WP:SYN. Michael, you made a stupid mistake because you have no background in or understanding of this literature. Once this mistake was pointed out to you by several editors, you refused to retract your erroneous statement or allow it to be modified. At this point, a mistake that could have been easily corrected became a false statement, just as was the case with Pliny, because you had not decided. When the disputed material was removed by other editors based on WP:SYN and WP:Undue weight, you compounded your violation of Wiki policy by repeatedly adding it back to the article. The problem, as Nishidani pointed out, is that you; the hubris that you are the final arbitrator of truth. Ovadyah 01:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Reviewing the recently added quotes, I find the quotation for footnote 29 to lay far less importance on the extant text than the existing content does, and wonder whether the quotation actually is sufficient for inclusion of the extant text, given that apparent overemphasis of a small point. Also, regarding footnote 67, I cannot see how the text of the quotation is even remotely directly relevant to either the article or the text which it appears to be intended to support. The quotation deals purely with the Essenes, and no direct or indirect mention of the Ebionites is to be found in it. Also, I would note that as is both of these citations are poorly constructed, as they do not cite the author, book, or page number of the quotes supplied. John Carter 16:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Also note that the Tabor quote says that the Essenes espoused things like "being the poor" 150 years before Jesus (another contradiction to Eisenman, who disregards the date of the Dead Sea Scrolls and identifies its people with New Testament people). If so, how does that differ from Cullman's view that appellatives like "the poor" was current in pious Jewish circles? If so, how does that make it a direct Essene influence on the Christians/Ebionties? Is Tabor clearer anywhere else? Str1977 (talk) 10:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC) BTW, Michael, you do not need to trim the quotes in article (that should have been posted here and not there) as they will be removed in time anyway. Str1977 (talk) 10:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have changed my vote to yes for removing inadequately sourced material to the talk page. I encourage the rest of you to do the same, and let's get on with it. Footnoting, while potentially useful, will not solve the problem of conflation. Ovadyah 15:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
TEXT.
'In one excerpt from the Gospel of the Ebionites quoted by Epiphanius, John the Baptist is portrayed as a vegetarian Nazirite teacher of righteousness.' = note 70
NOTE70
70 Eisenman (1997), pp. 240, 264, 295, 300, 326, 331-2, 367, 403, 619.
All these page numbers repeat the entry under John the Baptist, of food, in Eisenman's index, p.1054 column 1.
Let's scrutinize the first note.
The relevant passage on p.240 runs as follows.
‘Interestingly, when speaking of James as ‘a Nazirite’, Epiphanius gives John the Baptist as another example ‘of these persons consecrated to God,’ In doing so, he cites Luke 1:15 which pictures the Angel predicting that John ‘will drink neither wine nor strong drink’,so pregnant with meaning regarding so-called 'Rechabites' above and which all sources also predicate of James. Epiphanius does not, however, cite Luke 7:33 further to this about John- in contrast to Jesus (thus) –‘neither eating bread not drinking wine,' The issue of Jesus aside, these points are never mentioned in other descriptions of John, not even by Josephus. If we substitute ‘meat’ for ‘bread’ – overlapping terms in Hebrew – then, of course, the resultant meaning is that John (unlike Jesus) was both a ‘Rechabite’ or ‘Nazarite’ and vegetarian, and virtual convergence with known information about James is achieved.’ p.240
Epiphanius speaks of James as a Nazirite. Epiphanius cites John as someone 'consecrated to God' (like James, who was a Nazirite) Epiphanius cites Luke 1:15 that John will abstain from wine and drink'
Thus Epiphanius on that page presented as saying John is consecrated to God, and will abstain from alcohol.
On that page he is not represented as saying John is a (1) vegetarian (2) a Nazirite (3) a teacher of righteousness.'
It is Eisenman, not Epiphanius, on this page, who says, that substituting terms, mutatis mutandis, in a passage of Luke not cited by Epiphanius, the meaning would be that John is 'a Rechabite' (a Nazirite' and 'vegetarian')
The inference Eisenman makes from Epiphanius is that John, (like James who is a Nazirite) may be a Nazirite, but this is not stated, as Eisenman puts it, in Epiphanius.
In short Michael C.Price, is attributing, on this page, views Eisenman reconstructs about John, to Epiphanius. He is engaged in synthesis, confusing primary sources and secondary sources. One can repeat this kind of breakdown infinitely, with the notes he has provided so far. Is there any point in proceding? In old foruming days, when a crank mainlining on a fringe theory threw in bait to get the gudgeons biting, wiser minds would admonish all: Don’t feed the beast, in order to save the forum from degenerating into idiocy. Nishidani 20:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Mmh, as I wrote above this item is included not in a section split into various views but reports in a factual manner. The question is: does Eisenman deserve a place in this. Also, can someone please point out to me what Epiphanius quote we are talking about. Here is a link to his excerpts from the Gospel of the Ebionites. The only "food-oriented" stuff I found was ", and his food, as it is said, was wild honey, the taste if which was that of manna, as a cake dipped in oil. Thus they were resolved to pervert the truth into a lie and put a cake in the place of locusts.", with the last sentence being Epiphanius' comment. I see nothing about no alcohol etc., let alone Nazirites. Str1977 (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is to be used to remove disputed material from the article for further discussion on the talk page, per majority consensus of the editors. Ovadyah 23:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The full citation from Hyam Maccoby, "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity", Chp.2, p.17 (proposition 6):
6 The Ebionites were stigmatized by the Church as heretics who failed to understand that Jesus was a divine person and asserted instead that he was a human being who came to inaugurate a new earthly age, as prophesied by the Jewish prophets of the Bible. Moreover, the Ebionites refused to accept the Church doctrine, derived from Paul, that Jesus abolished or abrogated the Torah, the Jewish law. Instead, the Ebionites observed the Jewish law and regarded themselves as Jews. The Ebionites were not heretics, as the Church asserted, nor 're-Judaizers', as modern scholars call them, but the authentic successors of the immediate disciples and followers of Jesus, whose views and doctrines they faithfully transmitted, believing correctly that they were derived from Jesus himself. They were the same group that had earlier been called the Nazarenes, who were led by James and Peter, who had known Jesus during his lifetime, and were in a far better position to know his aims than Paul, who met Jesus only in dreams and visions. Thus the opinion held by the Ebionites about Paul is of extraordinary interest and deserves respectful consideration, instead of dismissal as 'scurrilous' propaganda -- the reaction of Christian scholars from ancient to modern times.
— Hyam Maccoby, The Mythmaker, Chp.2, p.17
The sentence most relevant to the Lead section of the article is in bold. Ovadyah 17:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Chapter 2 - The Standpoint Of This Book, pp.14-18, is where Maccoby lays out his arguments in general terms. What I called section 6 is really the last of 6 propositions. Maybe that's what I should have called it. I'll make it clearer above. I also added page numbers for Chp.15 - The Evidence of the Ebionites, pp.172-183. Ovadyah 20:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I added page numbers for Eisenman, "James the Brother of Jesus", pp.5-6 in the Lead. Eisenman does not put his thesis forward with the clarity of Maccoby, typical of his non-linear writing style, but he argues that the Christianity we have today is the Roman-approved version, in the same way that Rabbinic Judaism was the only form of Judaism the Romans would tolerate. Here are some quotes that outline his thinking:
With the gradual production of rabbinical literature....a new form of Judaism was formulated no longer predicated on the Temple. This became dominant in Palestine only after the Romans imposed it by brute force. Because of its palpably more accomodating attitude toward foreign rule....it was really the only form of Jewish religious expression the Romans were willing to live with. The same was to hold true for the form of Christianity we can refer to as 'Pauline', which was equally submissive or accomodating to Roman power.
This form of Judaism must be distinguished from the more variegated tapestry that characterized Jewish religious expression in Jesus' and James' lifetimes. ...They were written out of Judaism in the same manner that James and Jesus' other brothers were written out of Christianity.
'Christianity', as we know it, developed in the West in contradistinction to the more variegated landscape that continued to characterize the East. It would be more proper to refer to Western Christianity at this point as 'Pauline' or 'Gentile Christian'. ...It's documents and credos were collected and imposed on what is now known as the Christian World at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE and others that followed in the fourth century and beyond.
To put this proposition differently: the fact of the power and brutality of Rome was operating...to drive out and to declare heretical what is now called Jewish Christianity -'Essenism' or 'Ebionitism' would perhaps be a better description of it in Palestine. ...This surgery was necessary if Christianity in the form we know it was to survive, since certain doctrines represented by James, and probably dating back to his Messianic predecessor 'Jesus', were distinctly opposed to those ultimately considered to be Christian.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.1, pp.5-6
A little long-winded, but Eisenman lays out a proposition that Christianity as we know it was imposed by Roman power and was much different than the Jewish Christianity of Jesus and James. Ovadyah 00:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Eisenman's general use of the terminology The Poor, pp.4,45:
Eusebius contemptuously alluded to the poverty-stricken spirituality of the Ebionites,....He did so in the form of a pun on the Hebrew meaning of their name, 'the Poor',... The euphemism 'the Poor' was already in common use as an honorable form of self-designation in the community responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls - commonly called 'the Qumran Community',....as it was among those in contact with James' Jerusalem Community, most notably Paul. The usage also figures prominently in both the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew and in the Letter attributed to James itself.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.1, p.4
Not only was the uprising aimed at burning the palaces of the High Priests and the Herodian Kings but the debt records as well, in order, as Josephus makes clear, 'to turn the Poor against the Rich'. Once again, it is the same genre of language evinced in the Letter of James and the Dead Sea Scrolls in their condemnation of 'the Rich'. It is also the language applied to the Movement led by James, by Paul (Gal. 2:10) and to the later Ebionites, so named because of it, as well as the nomenclature used by the Movement represented by the Scrolls to describe its own rank and file - called there as well 'the Ebionim' or 'the Poor'.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.3, p.45
Eisenman points out that the terminology "The Poor" was used in common by the Essenes, early Christians, and Ebionites. He doesn't make any distinctions between Judaic and more gnostic Ebionites in the pseudo-Clementines. That's enough for tonight. I'm growing weary of digging up page references and citations for content I didn't even add to the article. Ovadyah 01:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Maccoby's use of the term Ebionites:
Various theories have been put forward as to why some Jewish Christian sects were called Nazarenes while others were called Ebionites. The best solution seems to be that the original name was Nazarenes, but at some point they were given the name Ebionites, as a derogatory nickname, which, however, some of them adopted with pride, since its meaning, 'poor men', was a reminder of Jesus' saying, 'Blessed are the poor', and also of his and James's sayings against the rich.
— Hyam Maccoby, The Mythmaker, Chp.15, p.175
I think that takes care of the page citations in the Lead and the Names section. Ovadyah 15:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Could someone check reference 29 re Eisenman. This looks like a dump from an index. I won't have time to fix it today. Once fixed, that's it for the History section. The request for page numbers for the 1998 Tabor article is ridiculous. Its an online article that would print out on 2 pages. Ovadyah 15:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I found the time to go through ref 29 that Michael dumped from the index. None of the pages really address the question of the relation of the Essenes to the Ebionites, except p.34. In fact, Eisenman never states it explicitly as a hypothesis. Here are some excerpts that outline his ideas:
The surprising absence to 'Essenes' per se in the New Testament is even more easily explained. The New Testament refers to Pharisees, Sadducees (sometimes 'Scribes'), Herodians, and even to a certain extent Zealots. ...The reason Josephus' Essenes are missing from this list is that this is the group that the New Testament is itself. That said, the New Testament is developing additional terminology to describe itself, that of 'Nazoraeans'/'Nazirites'/'Nazrenes'...
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.3 p.34
Here Eisenman explicitly makes a link between the Essenes and early Christians, who he refers to as Nazoraeans, by saying they are the same. Elsewhere on p.45, already cited, he refers to the Ebionites as being later than James and Paul. Ovadyah 21:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems with Josephus' picture of the sects is that, since he is covering a chronological time frame of some two hundred and fifty years, one does not really know to which period his points apply. ...For instance, his Sadducees bear no relation to the Qumran Sadducees (or 'Essenes') whatsoever. ...I have in previous works referred to the Qumran or 'Purist Sadducees' as 'Messianic Sadducees', taking into account their Messianic tendencies. Others might wish to call them 'Essenes' or 'Zealots'... But they also display characteristics of what in other quarters are being called Nazoraeans/Nazrenes/Jewish Christians or Ebionites.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.3 pp.35-36
Here Eisenman lumps all these groups together as being somehow related as opposition groups to the Herodian Establishment. Ovadyah 22:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
That takes care of the page numbers in the History section other than Tabor. I'm beginning to wonder, based on the Eisenman citations from the index, if Michael has even cracked the book. He may just be looking at the index on Amazon and whatever he can pick up on web searches. That would certainly explain some of the stupid mistakes and taking things out of context. Ovadyah 02:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I checked the rest of the sections, and the page requests look like they have been met. Maccoby is now sourced with page numbers throughout, and as I said, the 1998 Tabor article is online and all of two pages long. Someone still needs to verify the accuracy of the page numbers for Tabor's Jesus Dynasty. I left all the requests for page numbers in place so someone else can check them. Ovadyah 02:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Please let me know if the literature cites and page numbers for Eisenman are ok by Tuesday. I checked out all of the multiple page references Michael added to the article. Many of them did not support what is being stated in the article or only peripherally. I anyone thinks otherwise, please add them back, but also put the content from those pages here as quotations so it can be verified. Ovadyah 15:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I know it's an odd question, but can anyone tell me why the three sentences are structured in the way they are? I might have thought that the source with the most recent citation may have come first, with the other two later. Right now, it is constructed directly opposite of that. Not necessarily arguing the current structure, just curious. John Carter 21:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is for removal of content from Eisenman and Tabor that has been conflated to make it seem that both sources are in agreement. The consensus of a majority of editors is that these two authors have very different POVs that cannot be combined. The article content will be deconflated here into distinct statements that accurately represent the viewpoints of their respective authors. Ovadyah 19:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to move the disputed content from the History section first. I think the Names section is ok, but I will double-check. This shouldn't take too long if we all work on it together. Another related issue is whether specific content is appropriate to the article. I know this has been a big issue for Str1977. I will move possibly inappropriate content of Eisenman and Tabor here too, and make clear that is the reason for removing it. Ovadyah 20:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I see no problems with the factual accuracy or references in this section. If everyone else agrees, can someone take a stab at rewriting it? The section is too choppy as is, probably resulting from past edit-wars. One possible concern is that there is more discussion about Christians than Ebionites in places. The main point is that the designation 'the Poor' was common to several groups over time, who were not necessarily related, including lastly the Ebionites. Ovadyah 22:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Removing E & T conflated content from the History section. It's impossible to sort out what's conflated sentence by sentence, so I copied over the whole sub-section.
Ovadyah 21:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The remaining content looks ok to me. There are some one-sentence paragraphs that need fixing or expanding. Ovadyah 22:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Removing conflated E & T content and possibly inappropriate content, including material on the Essenes and John the Baptist. Ovadyah 22:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Removing disputed and possibly inappropriate content to the talk page. Ovadyah 22:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, this section should broken up into actual views and practices. Whether the Essene connection belongs in there is also dubious to me. Especially sentences like "Regarding the Ebionites specifically, a number of scholars have different theories on how the Ebionites may have developed from an Essene Jewish messianic sect." and "Hans-Joachim Schoeps argues that the conversion of some Essenes to Jewish Christianity after the Siege ..." looks more like history to me. Str1977 (talk) 06:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Please review the remaining material in the article for stability (1e), neutrality (1d), and factual accuracy (1c). I would like to report to FAR that the remaining content is clean, and we are making progress on the rest. Indicate your agreement or disagreement. If any editors disagree, please give specific comments on the remaining content that needs to be fixed. Ovadyah 01:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
*Agree
Ovadyah 01:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Not quite there yet, see below.
Ovadyah 14:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem is a conflation of Eisenman & Tabor re the opposition High Priest. The content is technically true in a narrow sense, but not accurate. Both authors do see James as an opposition High Priest, but Eisenman goes further than this. He identifies James specifically as the Teacher of Righteousness. This conjecture has been widely refuted by other scholars, along with the more general conjecture that the Essenes were the early Christians. Therefore, we need to deconflate the two authors and either remove Eisenman or report his views more accurately. Ovadyah 14:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Copied James content to the talk page to deconflate E & T. Ovadyah 14:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
John, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, so I copied the Lead section here. The current version is much choppier than the FA version. You can link to some previous versions in the FAR comment box or view them at Ebionites/wip. Ovadyah 20:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This was the FA version, so apparently the references became separated from the text during the edit-wars. Ovadyah 21:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The FA version was changed because it was empty words: "disciples of the early Jerusalem church" - no one disputes this. The newer version is the gist of what Eisenman and Tabor are saying. Str1977 (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I decided to be bold and make the change. We now have two Schoeps references. Is that one too many? Ovadyah 02:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
To speak about their marginalisation only makes sense if they were mainstream before. I really don't see what the problem was with the former version (apart from the small paragraphs). Str1977 (talk) 06:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone (besides me) think the Lead is still too sparse? It used to say a lot more about scholar's views of specific Ebionite beliefs and practices. It also had their views of Paul as an apostate from the Law. We could say something like, "Some modern scholars believe that the Ebionites revered James the Just as their spiritual leader and rejected Paul as an apostate from the Law." Ovadyah 17:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, are the editors aware that it is not a requirement to add references to the Lead, as long as they are somewhere in the body of the article? We put them in anyway because of frequent challenges to the content by drive-by editors. Ovadyah 17:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's a paragraph from the Lead in January to illustrate what I mean. The FA version is more stripped down because a "certain-someone" insisted on adding material about the Essenes and JTB. The compromise to make that go away was to remove a good deal of the content. Ovadyah 17:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
'Beyond doubt (Ebionism) goes back to a self-designation of this group, rather than to the two Pauline passages in which the Apostle chances to speak of the 'poor' in the primitive Church (Gal.2:10; Rom.15:26). Nor is it to be understood as a representation of the actual state of their fortunes, but as a religious confession: 'Despite our poverty, nay on account of our very poverty, God has chosen us.' They connect the beatitudes of the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20f) with themselves, consider themselves the brothers of poor Lazarus, above all they appropriate the numerous passages of the Old Testament in which 'the poor' is a designation either of the people of Israel as a whole or of the true Israel, the pious among the people, and consider it their right to designate themselves thus as being the truly righteous and beloved of God, as the elect who are certain of a glorious future (ref Count von Baudissin). Thus there is present here, as in the name Nazarene, a relic of the earlier period, which was not washed away by the development in the empire. How perplexed the men of the great Church were made by this name is shown by their attempt at its explanation. Besides relating it to the mythical Ebion, they speak of the 'poor' mode of thought of these people, especially the poor Christology; but they no longer understand its original meaning. So much the more evident is the connection of heretical Christianity with the primitive Church on this point' Johannes Weiss, Earliest Christianity: A History of the Period A.D.30-150, vol.2 (1937)1965 Harper Torchbook ed.New York p731 Nishidani 17:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Link to the January 12, 2007 version [5]. Ovadyah 00:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Pasted references here to make it easier to update them in the current article. Ovadyah 00:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
There are three bibliographical issues:
These issues certainly are not very pressing but I wanted to raise them nonetheless. Str1977 (talk) 06:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, using encyclopedias as sources is discouraged by Wikipedia because they are considered tertiary sources. I would avoid it in an FA if possible, unless we tried and can't get the info any other way. Ovadyah 14:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
John, you added the citation from the Encyclopedia of Religion. Do you still want this material to stay in the Lead section? If so, we need clarification as requested above. Thanks. Ovadyah 17:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Before we go any farther on creating separate Notes and References sections, I want editors to be aware that we had that before (see link above to Jan. 12 2007 version), and we had to change the whole reference structure. I will try to locate the diff where FAC told us to change it. Ovadyah 15:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is way too choppy in terms of writing style. All the single-sentence paragraphs simply will not do for a FA. Also, two sections are about early Christians rather than Ebionites. I'm going to do some cutting to eliminate the isolated fragments. They either need to be expanded, consolidated, or stay eliminated. Ovadyah 02:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the article is somewhat improved in terms of sytle, but it could use another going over. However, keep in mind that a lot more noodling on the article's content will defeat the claim that the article is stable. Ovadyah 03:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is much closer now to addressing the issue of (1a). Loremaster indicated he might stop by, if things are quiet, to polish up the writing a bit more. After that, I would be fine with telling FAR we are finished with our changes and asking for a revote. However, before that happens, we need to address a few issues related to content:
1. The structure of the article.
Str1977 has indicated a preference to add back a section on Patristic Fathers that was created from the History section and later removed. I would like all the editors to weigh in on this idea.
The Views and Practices section used to have separate sub-sections for Judaic and Gnostic Ebionites (a third section on the Essenes has been removed). Should we go back to separate subsections or leave them combined?
The editors are vacillating between the single Reference section we have currently and going back to separate Notes and References sections. This should be discussed among all the editors, and I would like to get an opinion from FAR before we change anything.
2. Disputed content
Should we make it a priority to deconflate the disputed content and restore some of it to the article? This relates to a more general discussion, long overdue, about weighting the traditional/mainstream view vs. the Eisenman/Maccoby/Tabor alternative views.
If we are going to make changes to the structure and content of the article, I suggest that now is the time or hold your peace. Noodling on the article is, in part, why we are in this mess. It creates the impression that the article is unstable and invites further changes. Ovadyah 22:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the things that has concerned me for a long time about the "traditional" view is that the sources are 70-plus years old. The assumption is that this view continues to be the "mainstream" view, and it is not reported because there is nothing more to be said. However, that is an argument from silence. Loremaster and I diligently searched the literature going back 30 years, and we found nothing mainstream on the Ebionites. We were criticized as being biased for the lack of sources in the article. A new exhaustive search was done going back 100-plus years resulting in much of the new material added to the article. The question I still have is, what is the current mainstream view? I contacted several academics, including Mark Goodacre, James Tabor, Bart Ehrman, and Ed Sanders, in an attempt to get at the answer. What am I missing? Ovadyah 14:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It could be argued that Maccoby started a new quest for the history of the Ebionites by making six propositions in his book "The Mythmaker" that are not unlike Luther nailing his theses to the church door. That would be a good place to start a discussion about alternative views. Ovadyah 14:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that the article will fail in FAR (see FAR comments). No matter how hard we work to fix it, new reasons will appear to take their place. Therefore, I am finished editing this article. Ovadyah 01:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been caught up in a rather extraordinary futile piece of accusatory litigation elsewhere and keeping my record free of taint has taken my time away from this page. I can't find the page where the FAR comments you allude to are. Could I ask you to do me the courtesy to specify where I can find it, so I can examine it? Thanks, and best wishes Nishidani 09:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the three links to note 12 are necessarily required for the article. As they are from a personal webpage, I was wondering if there would be any objection to removing them. That might call for a change in the image, though. John Carter 14:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
After reading the FAR, I thought I might look at the remarks regarding style and examine the text from that angle. I immediately noticed, 'elucidating on' in an awkward sentence, and emended. But I do not want to proceed off my own bat. I can understand this side merits attention because of the enormous amount of hard labour on the content that recent disputes have engendered.
So I will make my suggestions here:-
Apropos. 'Church Fathers, who . .whom,'
If this approach to style disturbs the sense of the text, or is inferior, let me know. It is only a quick suggestion, nothing more. Nishidani 16:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Remove. There are still a lot of issues. I just fixed the footnote punctuation per WP:FN (haven't had to do that in a very long time, so just noting it so that regular editors will be aware).
See WP:MOS regarding use of e.g. There is a likely copyvio citation to a geocities personal website, not a reliable source. Many publishers aren't identified on sources, making it difficult to evaluate reliability of sources without clicking on each source.
(ah, and I see I asked for this to be attended to during the FAC, and apparently it never was.) For example, one sources is selfhelp-guide.com; is that a reliable source?
Is hebrew4christians.com a reliable source?
There are still citation needs, samples only:
There are still copyedit needs and redundant prose, samples only:
Then further on again, we find Church Fathers linked.
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I moved Sandy's FARC comments to the talk page so they can be addressed more easily. I will work on these as I have time, since it seems clear by now that no one else will. Ovadyah 22:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Sandy, I think I have addressed all of your initial comments. Ovadyah 01:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
I wrote this for the Arbitration page, but have posted it here since it would appear from the rules that once a statement has been made there it should not lead into a discussion. It is in reply to Michael C. Price
DBachman's opinion (and it has weight),now cited by Michael Price, that this article may suffer from WP:OWN, referred to Ovadyah's requests for precise documentation on a specific argument. However, Since Ovadyah's requests have since been shared by several other people, the WP:OWN cannot surely apply to Ovadyah (I hardly think 'collective ownership' is the point here, either, since those same editors frequently disagree among themselves, but have managed to achieve a consensual mode of editing). If anything WP:OWN could bear on Michael C.Price's ultramontane defence of a passage he has admitted was a synthetic construction based partially on his own inferences, precisely the point made by all others party to this dispute. Secondly, Michael C Price's complaints about the reduction, over time, of Tabor and Eisenman's presence, and his defence of his editing as an attempt to achieve balance by reincorporating them, appear to ignore, for want of a better word, the problems of fancruft, to which indeed the same DBachman alludes on his homepage as a problem. Nishidani 11:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
ps.I do not personally think your problem is 'bad faith'. I think the problem is you have not the slightest idea of why other editors challenge you, and you do not understand standard methods of historical analysis, involving the balanced sifting of evidence, the attribution of primary weight stringently to the evidence, and what it can and cannot allow us to infer from it. Eisenman rewrites the evidence speculatively because he considers the primary evidence doctored, and imagines a different story to the one narrated, and therefore has to be handled with extreme scruple. Tabor instead goes far far beyond what little evidence we have. Technically, the two, though accomplished scholars, hazard hypotheses that fail, to use an idea you once cited, Popper's verifiability criteria (note in particular that the radiocarbon evidence Eisenman pressed for, when done, contradicted his own beliefs. What did he do? He challenged the results and methods. Popper used to have a field day with that kind of gamesmanship). Nishidani 11:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Michael C. Price. You don't seem to understand anything here at this point. As someone, who, despite a critical awareness of the extreme difficulties and technical dangers in Eisenman's approach, was fascinated years ago by his hypothesis, I entered this Talk Page to mediate on your behalf, showing a willingness to give your take on that work a solid hearing. I did not interfere with the page, except to correct a spelling anomaly. Wiki policy on editing refers to rules of drafting the page, and therefore if you accuse me of violating one - content judgement - that in no way affects those who have worked on the page, or the controversial passage, since I haven't touched it. What I did was to give you a thumbnail sketch of why many authorities in the world of Biblical criticism consider Eisenman's hypothesis an unreliable source or at best, one to be handled with extreme caution. I expounded these considerations on this talk page. I did this because you do not seem to know (1)where Eisenman is coming from (2) as proven, you misinterpreted his text, understandably so since even the best of critics have difficulty in parsing its meaning and its implications, and (3) you ignore, in calling Eisenman's work something that represents the 'tip' (cusp) of a considerable hermeneutic consensus, Eisenman's own affirmation that his work does not represent a 'consensus:-
Almost everything in the book, from the restoration of James to his rightful place . . to the elucidation of the Dead Sea Scrolls in a manner at odds with dominant scholarly comsenses, will occur outside the traditional or received order.' Eiseman,James the Brother of Jesus p.xxxvi
Here you have Eisenman explicitly admitting that his work runs in the face of scholarly consensus, (2) that scholarly elites (the consensus) have dominated a docile public and that (3) he trusts in a knowledgeable and enlightened public to break the scholarly consensus, implicitly in this last affirmation (ibid) by using the enlightenment his anti-consensual POV provides them in order to break the bonds imposed on them, as a docile public, by a long tradition of accomplished scholars. This is Eisenman's POV, that his book is a fringe theory designed to convince a docile readership to challenge the standard authorities in the field. You have risen to the bait, taking up the banner of a 'non-consensual' theory to challenge the 'docile public' of other editors caught up in the magical thrall of mainstream scholarship, being yourself neither a trained hand at the subject nor someone (see the record) who actually understands the problems and implications of Eisenman's work.
Eisenman has the intellectual courage to assert his ideas are wholly out of whack with the scholarly consensus of the subject. All your critics in here take him at his word. You do not. You keep insisting he is at the forefront ('tip' ) of a growing scholarly consensus which includes Keith Akers (a vegetarian who knows nothing about the subject), Larson (sp.) who had a degree in English literature and wrote for Parade Magazine on a field he had no academic training in, long before this book by Eisenman was published. Like you I am personally intrigued by his thesis. Unlike you, I take to heart the comments of those many authorities in Eisenman's field, the Geza Vermes, Antony Saldarinis and others, who document the errors, oversights, methodological incoherencies, who reviewing him as a peer write that 'his conclusions are improbable, his arguments incoherent and his prose impossible,' and warn the reading public against a naive embrace of what is a fringe theory. Unlike you, I do not run to the Wiki rule book to try and justify myself. I simply, on the talk pages, try to tell you to shake off the spell of enchantment by looking at the larger literature, and to take into serious consideration the challenges which a scholarly consensus has laid in Eisenman's way. What you object to as an illegal 'judgement of content' in my remarks on this Talk Page' dialogue I have endeavoured to make with you, is nothing more than an objection to what Eisenman himself says, which I paraphrase, and what his major critics say, which I also paraphrase. That you should find it objectionable that someone on a talk page should remind you of what Eisenman thinks, and his critics say, and that you should atribute both opinions to me as a judgement of source content instead of being a construal of the state of the academic debate, shows once more that you grasp for straws, using an 'ad hominem' argument to undermine the pertinence for the page you are drafting of what the 'scholarly consensus' (not mine) says on Eisenman, a consensus which, greatest of all ironies, Eisenman readily recognizes Nishidani 09:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
(A note on what follows. It replies to the following remark by Michael Price which is substantially shorter than the text above, which was reelaborated after my comment below. Unless this is clear, the talk will become nonsensical. He wrote:-
No, this wikilawyering won't work either. I am not on the record as advising that 'content be removed' from the article. I am on the record as asking you to get your personal syntheses to respect the evidence and the distinct views of scholars instead of manipulating them in a personal POV of the argument. Tabor and Eisenman of course stay on the page, but not in the way you have engineered their views to appear as identical and thus to create the false impression of a 'consensus' in what are independent fringe theories (the ostensible aim, my inference, being to undermine the prevailing academic consensus).
I am on the record as analysing why that content, as you phrased it, was a personal synthesis (violating wiki policy) you made of two distinct theories, in which you conflated, on the basis of personal inferences or OR (violating wiki policy) books, attributing the views of one scholar, Tabor, to another, Eisenman. At this point, I suggest you just take a deep breath and review the record for the arguments of substance, and not 'frig' about in this pettifogging manner. You have allowed that what what you did was a synthesis based on personal inferences. Now you are trying to invalidate my analysis (on the talk page) and therefore retain on the Ebionism page a conflation you virtually concede was an illegitimate synthesis of the OR variety.
Your second point is incomprehensible. Nishidani 10:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Str1977 (talk) 11:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
In reply to Michael C Price's second version of his recent post.
This increasingly sounds like washerwomen backbiting over the fence. Your altered post in no way addresses my points. You are attempting to introduce a wider argument I have not commented on, to insinuate I am disputing 'Essene influences on early Christian origins.' The intent, apparently, is to sweep under the carpet and hide from view the argument I made, which you partially accepted, that in the specific passage disputed, you make an OR synthesis. This is not the place for Hyde Park oratorical oneupmanship, but for specific points addressed correctly.
'Vermes whom you so adore'. I don't 'adore' any scholar. I love scholarship, and yes, I dislike blow-ins from pseuds' corner like Keith Akers being smuggled into an article that gives rightful place to scholars of distinguished intellectual accomplishment, like Vermes, and Eisenman. It's like citing Charlie Chaplin's views on de Vere as the author of Shakespeare's works. Nishidani 10:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
(Since we have finally a full house consensus, reflecting both Michael's willingness to post his material, and our readiness to analyse its relation to the disputed section with him, I propose this new section, where, if I am not mistaken, the natural procedure would be to:
(1) paste in the disputed passage
(2) Below, for each footnote to the disputed passage in the Ebionism text, are to be placed the page references to both Tabor and Eisenman, on which each affirmation in the text rests
(3) For each footnote, the relevant text in both authors is to be supplied.
Over to you then Michael.
Nishidani 20:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Please note that almost all of the discussion from the talk page section on Mediation to this one was just to get the page numbers for one literature citation. This is what I mean by ceaseless edit-warring and an obdurate refusal to edit consensually. It is a flagrant example of bad faith editing by Michael Price. Now that we finally have the page numbers, I am repeating my request for specific content.
I have read over the citations several times and I don't see what is being claimed. Four editors are requesting specific evidence, and you are adamantly unwilling to provide it. Why do you persist in your refusal to provide the evidence needed to verify of your statements? Ovadyah 12:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The disputed material has not been sourced adequately, as per statements from knowledgeable parties above. On that basis I am now formally requesting that we attempt to determine consensus here. The specific question is whether we have cause to remove the inadequately sourced material from the article to the talk page, until and unless adequate sourcing for that material is provided. Please answer below by affixing your signature to the appropriate section.
I have tagged those source citations which are not yet sufficient with the {{ page number}}, which is the template which most closely approximates the required information for each citation, which is the specific quote from the relevant text. Better evidence will be produced or the text which these citations support will be eligible for removal. Considering that this information has already been challenged repeatedly, I believe one week is more than sufficient time for the relevant quotations to be produced, or the citations and the content they support will be removed. Also, for what it's worth, the entry from the Encyclopedia of Religion is from the "Ebionites" article. If anyone has a better understanding than I do of reference formatting, they are more than welcome to add that information. John Carter 19:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
in my experience, in a deadlock such as this one, there is no way forward except patient addressing of each point separately. Instead of theoretically discussing over the ways of attributing a point, pick the first point treat it as a case study. Thus, I see "page number required" for the claim
I might add that the "despite" is already a clear attempt at spinning in my view. The author seems to want to convey the opinion that it is somehow ironic that the Ebionites were marginalized because they "possibly" remained closer to the historical teachings of Jesus. Now quite apart from this matter of stylistics (I can see how it could be argued that it is ironic, but this would be due to a lack of understanding of Pauline Christianity and the importance of Pentecost: Pauline Christianity has very little to do with the historical Jesus, and this will only seem "ironical" to Protestants or naive secularists), what are the sources given?
here we have two books, judging from their title one polemic against Paul, and one sensationalist treatise from the height of the hype surrounding the "Dead Sea Scrolls". No page number. I can well believe that these authors make such statements of the Ebionites, but these are evidently authors with an agenda. We can say "some authors" (Maccoby, Eisenman) made the claim. We can even say "some scholars", if these books received scholarly reviews. To hide the polemic behind a mere "possibly", and then not even giving a precise location where the claim was made is unacceptable. My conclusion is, the statement in question as it stands is tendentious and argumentative, and either needs better attribution or needs to go. -- dab () 12:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
googling for five minutes, I find the following: Howard Bream, The Journal of Religion (1952): review of H. J. Schoeps, Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums (1949), p.58:
I present this as an example that one brief google search can replace pages and pages of debate. This establishes that the possibility has been voiced in respectable literature, and the reference I cite is orders of magnitude more useful than just gesturing towards two rather suspect tomes. Now, please do the same for the remaining citation request, or, I suppose, you have to accept their being removed pending attribution. -- dab () 13:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone else concerned that the page numbers are not being added individually, but are ss often as not rather "bulk" citations. As an example, see footnote 32, which refers to no less than 12 pages, and 31, which appears to only limit the quotation to somewhere in 30 consecutive pages. What was being requested was not only a page number but rather a citation of exactly where in the book the statement upon which the content is based was found. I do not see, unless the writer repeated himself rather a lot, that this necessarily meets the requirements. John Carter 14:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
look: does Eisenman, or does he not, specifically state that he believes the Ebionites held Simeon to be Jesus' brother? If so, on which page? If not, cobbling the conclusion together from a dozen pages is WP:SYN. Now, we may well ask on what grounds Eisenman believes that. Maybe there is an unambiguous statement to the effect in some primary source? If so, quote that. If the argument is synthetic (Eisenman's synthesis, not ours), the details of the argument might go to Simeon of Jerusalem since they are not really relevant here. The same goes for John's vegetarianism. Here, apparently, Eisenman's argument is synthetic. There will still be some specific location where he draws the conclusion. Tracing his argument based on Slavonic Josephus and what not is hardly relevant here, and may find a home on John the Baptist. dab () 15:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Str1977 (talk) 16:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
you realize, of course, that it would be up to you to quote the relevant passage? it transpires that you just copied a bunch of pages from the book's index, that even taken together they do not substantiate your claim, that the question addressed by Eisenman is never did the Ebionites believe S. was the brother of J., but whether they were "in fact" brothers. This is obviously a case of misattribution, and I propose that your other claims will be reviewed very carefully in the light of this precedent. Some of the passages quoted may have some relevance to Simeon of Jerusalem, but nothing I see here is relevant to this article, at all. I do hope you take away the lesson that it is your job to present a passage where the author makes the claim you say he makes, and that you cannot expect other editors to do your work for you. dab () 17:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The entry in the Encyclopedia of Religion refers to the evidence for the Ebionites being scattered from the middle of the second century to the middle of the fifth. I'm not sure that the last such evidence is directly contemporary, however. John Carter 15:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
then we can hardly claim they "lived in and around Judea and Palestine from the 1st to the 5th century". Theodoret in the 430s or so tells us they had disappeared. Obviously, we don't know if that happened before or after AD 400, or even if some of them were still lurking around in AD 450, or AD 500 for that matter, unbeknownst to Theodoret. dab () 17:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
looking around for scholarly reception of Eisenman, I find his book is called "eccentric" by J. K. Elliott, Novum Testamentum (1999). These reviews [2] [3] are enthusiastic, but also further drive home the eccentric nature of the work. I conclude from this that Eisenman's views should be given due space, but that they need to be treated separate, clearly marked as "Eisenman's eccentric but brilliant revisionism", and not dispersed among the mainstream discussion. dab () 17:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
true, I too remain sceptical of such groundbreaking feats. But I think we can assume notability for Eisenman sufficient for his own section, where we can present his hypothesis for whatever it is worth. -- dab () 07:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone consider the page citations which have been added to be sufficient, given the failure of the person who added the citations to even include a directly relevant citation in the one instance already examined? If not, what else would need to be done for this content to qualify as verified according to WP:V rules? John Carter 22:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Let's retrieve the relevant quotes from p.62 and p.69 of James the Brother of Jesus and go through the formal excercise of falsifying Michael's conclusions (again). Ovadyah 22:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I reproduce the quote from p.69 again with the relevant clause in bold.
For his part, Josephus is anxious to portray the Jews as burning down their own Temple and Titus as doing everything he can to quench the flames. In this manner he rescues Titus from the charge of impiety or Temple desecration, so important to a people as superstitious as the Romans. It is easy to recognize in Josephus' presentation of Titus the presentation of the behavior of Pontius Pilate and Herod towards Messianic leaders such as Jesus and John the Baptist in the Gospels - not surprisingly, since all these documents were produced by similar mindsets under similar constraints.
— Eisenman, James the brother of Jesus, p.69
Please note the complete context surrounding this phrase. Ovadyah 22:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I reproduce the quote from p.62 placed by Nishidani, again with the relevant clauses in bold.
Josephus also clarifies the reason for John's execution, as opposed to the more mythologized one encountered in the Gospels. Mark 6:20 even had Herod taking John for a "Righteous Man" (that is a Zaddik)!. . . .Herod, consequently, feared that John would lead an uprising and decided to have him executed . . .This execution, as in the case of Jesus, James and quite a few of these Messianic or 'opposition' leaders - for instance James and Simon, the two sons of Judas the Galilean - was a preventative one.
This is the demythologized John.— Eisenman, James the brother of Jesus, p.62
I would appreciate it if someone else would verify from the source document that the quotes I have placed here are accurate and that there is sufficient surrounding context before we begin the analysis. Ovadyah 22:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll begin the discussion with the citation on p.62. Eisenman claims that the portrait of John the Baptist we have from the gospels is mythologized. Referring instead to Josephus, he describes John as a righteous Zaddik whom Herod feared would lead an uprising. Eisenman goes on to describe John as one of many Messianic, and clarifying, 'opposition' leaders, along with Jesus, James, and the two sons of Judas the Galilean, who were executed for insurrection. Here, Eisenman is describing John as being one of a class of opposition leaders, that he terms "Messianic leaders", ie. those who led, or the ruling authorities feared would lead, an insurrection. Are we ok so far? Ovadyah 12:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Michael C. Price talk 14:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Now for the citation on p.69. Here Eisenman again refers to Josephus, but this time argues that his portrait of Titus and the destruction of the Temple is a mythologized apologetic for the Romans. Referring back to his comments on p.62, he argues that this process of mythologizing is similar to what was done with the "Messianic leaders", such as Jesus and John, in the gospels. He reinforces this point by stating that "all these documents were produced by similar mindsets under similar constraints". Is there anything in dispute about this summary of Eisenman's words in quotes? Ovadyah 12:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the summary given above was accurate and that "John as Messiah figure" is a) not in Eisenman, b) not meriting inclusion. Str1977 (talk) 18:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. What Michael has attempted to do is to selectively isolate the phrase "Messianic leaders such as Jesus and John the Baptist" from it's context to support his Taborite theory that John the Baptist was the Aaronic Messiah of the Essenes. To pull off this magic trick:
1. We must not be allowed to consider any of the surrounding context on p.69, and that Eisenman was comparing Josephus' apologetics about Titus back to the apologetics in the gospels he mentioned on p.62.
2. We must not consider that the term "Messianic leader" was already defined by Eisenman on p.62, as an opposition leader, and that John the Baptist was described as one of many such opposition leaders.
3. We must accept uncritically that Eisenman believes the Ebionites regarded JTB to be a Messiah (I didn't notice the Ebionites mentioned anywhere, did you?)
4. We must accept a priori that John the Baptist was an Essene to tie back to Tabor's theory.
5. We must accept a priori that the Essenes are the same as the Ebionites to tie all of this mumbo jumbo to the Ebionites.
It is a massive web of synthesis and a gross violation of WP:SYN. Michael, you made a stupid mistake because you have no background in or understanding of this literature. Once this mistake was pointed out to you by several editors, you refused to retract your erroneous statement or allow it to be modified. At this point, a mistake that could have been easily corrected became a false statement, just as was the case with Pliny, because you had not decided. When the disputed material was removed by other editors based on WP:SYN and WP:Undue weight, you compounded your violation of Wiki policy by repeatedly adding it back to the article. The problem, as Nishidani pointed out, is that you; the hubris that you are the final arbitrator of truth. Ovadyah 01:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Reviewing the recently added quotes, I find the quotation for footnote 29 to lay far less importance on the extant text than the existing content does, and wonder whether the quotation actually is sufficient for inclusion of the extant text, given that apparent overemphasis of a small point. Also, regarding footnote 67, I cannot see how the text of the quotation is even remotely directly relevant to either the article or the text which it appears to be intended to support. The quotation deals purely with the Essenes, and no direct or indirect mention of the Ebionites is to be found in it. Also, I would note that as is both of these citations are poorly constructed, as they do not cite the author, book, or page number of the quotes supplied. John Carter 16:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Also note that the Tabor quote says that the Essenes espoused things like "being the poor" 150 years before Jesus (another contradiction to Eisenman, who disregards the date of the Dead Sea Scrolls and identifies its people with New Testament people). If so, how does that differ from Cullman's view that appellatives like "the poor" was current in pious Jewish circles? If so, how does that make it a direct Essene influence on the Christians/Ebionties? Is Tabor clearer anywhere else? Str1977 (talk) 10:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC) BTW, Michael, you do not need to trim the quotes in article (that should have been posted here and not there) as they will be removed in time anyway. Str1977 (talk) 10:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have changed my vote to yes for removing inadequately sourced material to the talk page. I encourage the rest of you to do the same, and let's get on with it. Footnoting, while potentially useful, will not solve the problem of conflation. Ovadyah 15:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
TEXT.
'In one excerpt from the Gospel of the Ebionites quoted by Epiphanius, John the Baptist is portrayed as a vegetarian Nazirite teacher of righteousness.' = note 70
NOTE70
70 Eisenman (1997), pp. 240, 264, 295, 300, 326, 331-2, 367, 403, 619.
All these page numbers repeat the entry under John the Baptist, of food, in Eisenman's index, p.1054 column 1.
Let's scrutinize the first note.
The relevant passage on p.240 runs as follows.
‘Interestingly, when speaking of James as ‘a Nazirite’, Epiphanius gives John the Baptist as another example ‘of these persons consecrated to God,’ In doing so, he cites Luke 1:15 which pictures the Angel predicting that John ‘will drink neither wine nor strong drink’,so pregnant with meaning regarding so-called 'Rechabites' above and which all sources also predicate of James. Epiphanius does not, however, cite Luke 7:33 further to this about John- in contrast to Jesus (thus) –‘neither eating bread not drinking wine,' The issue of Jesus aside, these points are never mentioned in other descriptions of John, not even by Josephus. If we substitute ‘meat’ for ‘bread’ – overlapping terms in Hebrew – then, of course, the resultant meaning is that John (unlike Jesus) was both a ‘Rechabite’ or ‘Nazarite’ and vegetarian, and virtual convergence with known information about James is achieved.’ p.240
Epiphanius speaks of James as a Nazirite. Epiphanius cites John as someone 'consecrated to God' (like James, who was a Nazirite) Epiphanius cites Luke 1:15 that John will abstain from wine and drink'
Thus Epiphanius on that page presented as saying John is consecrated to God, and will abstain from alcohol.
On that page he is not represented as saying John is a (1) vegetarian (2) a Nazirite (3) a teacher of righteousness.'
It is Eisenman, not Epiphanius, on this page, who says, that substituting terms, mutatis mutandis, in a passage of Luke not cited by Epiphanius, the meaning would be that John is 'a Rechabite' (a Nazirite' and 'vegetarian')
The inference Eisenman makes from Epiphanius is that John, (like James who is a Nazirite) may be a Nazirite, but this is not stated, as Eisenman puts it, in Epiphanius.
In short Michael C.Price, is attributing, on this page, views Eisenman reconstructs about John, to Epiphanius. He is engaged in synthesis, confusing primary sources and secondary sources. One can repeat this kind of breakdown infinitely, with the notes he has provided so far. Is there any point in proceding? In old foruming days, when a crank mainlining on a fringe theory threw in bait to get the gudgeons biting, wiser minds would admonish all: Don’t feed the beast, in order to save the forum from degenerating into idiocy. Nishidani 20:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Mmh, as I wrote above this item is included not in a section split into various views but reports in a factual manner. The question is: does Eisenman deserve a place in this. Also, can someone please point out to me what Epiphanius quote we are talking about. Here is a link to his excerpts from the Gospel of the Ebionites. The only "food-oriented" stuff I found was ", and his food, as it is said, was wild honey, the taste if which was that of manna, as a cake dipped in oil. Thus they were resolved to pervert the truth into a lie and put a cake in the place of locusts.", with the last sentence being Epiphanius' comment. I see nothing about no alcohol etc., let alone Nazirites. Str1977 (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is to be used to remove disputed material from the article for further discussion on the talk page, per majority consensus of the editors. Ovadyah 23:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The full citation from Hyam Maccoby, "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity", Chp.2, p.17 (proposition 6):
6 The Ebionites were stigmatized by the Church as heretics who failed to understand that Jesus was a divine person and asserted instead that he was a human being who came to inaugurate a new earthly age, as prophesied by the Jewish prophets of the Bible. Moreover, the Ebionites refused to accept the Church doctrine, derived from Paul, that Jesus abolished or abrogated the Torah, the Jewish law. Instead, the Ebionites observed the Jewish law and regarded themselves as Jews. The Ebionites were not heretics, as the Church asserted, nor 're-Judaizers', as modern scholars call them, but the authentic successors of the immediate disciples and followers of Jesus, whose views and doctrines they faithfully transmitted, believing correctly that they were derived from Jesus himself. They were the same group that had earlier been called the Nazarenes, who were led by James and Peter, who had known Jesus during his lifetime, and were in a far better position to know his aims than Paul, who met Jesus only in dreams and visions. Thus the opinion held by the Ebionites about Paul is of extraordinary interest and deserves respectful consideration, instead of dismissal as 'scurrilous' propaganda -- the reaction of Christian scholars from ancient to modern times.
— Hyam Maccoby, The Mythmaker, Chp.2, p.17
The sentence most relevant to the Lead section of the article is in bold. Ovadyah 17:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Chapter 2 - The Standpoint Of This Book, pp.14-18, is where Maccoby lays out his arguments in general terms. What I called section 6 is really the last of 6 propositions. Maybe that's what I should have called it. I'll make it clearer above. I also added page numbers for Chp.15 - The Evidence of the Ebionites, pp.172-183. Ovadyah 20:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I added page numbers for Eisenman, "James the Brother of Jesus", pp.5-6 in the Lead. Eisenman does not put his thesis forward with the clarity of Maccoby, typical of his non-linear writing style, but he argues that the Christianity we have today is the Roman-approved version, in the same way that Rabbinic Judaism was the only form of Judaism the Romans would tolerate. Here are some quotes that outline his thinking:
With the gradual production of rabbinical literature....a new form of Judaism was formulated no longer predicated on the Temple. This became dominant in Palestine only after the Romans imposed it by brute force. Because of its palpably more accomodating attitude toward foreign rule....it was really the only form of Jewish religious expression the Romans were willing to live with. The same was to hold true for the form of Christianity we can refer to as 'Pauline', which was equally submissive or accomodating to Roman power.
This form of Judaism must be distinguished from the more variegated tapestry that characterized Jewish religious expression in Jesus' and James' lifetimes. ...They were written out of Judaism in the same manner that James and Jesus' other brothers were written out of Christianity.
'Christianity', as we know it, developed in the West in contradistinction to the more variegated landscape that continued to characterize the East. It would be more proper to refer to Western Christianity at this point as 'Pauline' or 'Gentile Christian'. ...It's documents and credos were collected and imposed on what is now known as the Christian World at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE and others that followed in the fourth century and beyond.
To put this proposition differently: the fact of the power and brutality of Rome was operating...to drive out and to declare heretical what is now called Jewish Christianity -'Essenism' or 'Ebionitism' would perhaps be a better description of it in Palestine. ...This surgery was necessary if Christianity in the form we know it was to survive, since certain doctrines represented by James, and probably dating back to his Messianic predecessor 'Jesus', were distinctly opposed to those ultimately considered to be Christian.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.1, pp.5-6
A little long-winded, but Eisenman lays out a proposition that Christianity as we know it was imposed by Roman power and was much different than the Jewish Christianity of Jesus and James. Ovadyah 00:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Eisenman's general use of the terminology The Poor, pp.4,45:
Eusebius contemptuously alluded to the poverty-stricken spirituality of the Ebionites,....He did so in the form of a pun on the Hebrew meaning of their name, 'the Poor',... The euphemism 'the Poor' was already in common use as an honorable form of self-designation in the community responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls - commonly called 'the Qumran Community',....as it was among those in contact with James' Jerusalem Community, most notably Paul. The usage also figures prominently in both the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew and in the Letter attributed to James itself.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.1, p.4
Not only was the uprising aimed at burning the palaces of the High Priests and the Herodian Kings but the debt records as well, in order, as Josephus makes clear, 'to turn the Poor against the Rich'. Once again, it is the same genre of language evinced in the Letter of James and the Dead Sea Scrolls in their condemnation of 'the Rich'. It is also the language applied to the Movement led by James, by Paul (Gal. 2:10) and to the later Ebionites, so named because of it, as well as the nomenclature used by the Movement represented by the Scrolls to describe its own rank and file - called there as well 'the Ebionim' or 'the Poor'.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.3, p.45
Eisenman points out that the terminology "The Poor" was used in common by the Essenes, early Christians, and Ebionites. He doesn't make any distinctions between Judaic and more gnostic Ebionites in the pseudo-Clementines. That's enough for tonight. I'm growing weary of digging up page references and citations for content I didn't even add to the article. Ovadyah 01:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Maccoby's use of the term Ebionites:
Various theories have been put forward as to why some Jewish Christian sects were called Nazarenes while others were called Ebionites. The best solution seems to be that the original name was Nazarenes, but at some point they were given the name Ebionites, as a derogatory nickname, which, however, some of them adopted with pride, since its meaning, 'poor men', was a reminder of Jesus' saying, 'Blessed are the poor', and also of his and James's sayings against the rich.
— Hyam Maccoby, The Mythmaker, Chp.15, p.175
I think that takes care of the page citations in the Lead and the Names section. Ovadyah 15:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Could someone check reference 29 re Eisenman. This looks like a dump from an index. I won't have time to fix it today. Once fixed, that's it for the History section. The request for page numbers for the 1998 Tabor article is ridiculous. Its an online article that would print out on 2 pages. Ovadyah 15:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I found the time to go through ref 29 that Michael dumped from the index. None of the pages really address the question of the relation of the Essenes to the Ebionites, except p.34. In fact, Eisenman never states it explicitly as a hypothesis. Here are some excerpts that outline his ideas:
The surprising absence to 'Essenes' per se in the New Testament is even more easily explained. The New Testament refers to Pharisees, Sadducees (sometimes 'Scribes'), Herodians, and even to a certain extent Zealots. ...The reason Josephus' Essenes are missing from this list is that this is the group that the New Testament is itself. That said, the New Testament is developing additional terminology to describe itself, that of 'Nazoraeans'/'Nazirites'/'Nazrenes'...
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.3 p.34
Here Eisenman explicitly makes a link between the Essenes and early Christians, who he refers to as Nazoraeans, by saying they are the same. Elsewhere on p.45, already cited, he refers to the Ebionites as being later than James and Paul. Ovadyah 21:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems with Josephus' picture of the sects is that, since he is covering a chronological time frame of some two hundred and fifty years, one does not really know to which period his points apply. ...For instance, his Sadducees bear no relation to the Qumran Sadducees (or 'Essenes') whatsoever. ...I have in previous works referred to the Qumran or 'Purist Sadducees' as 'Messianic Sadducees', taking into account their Messianic tendencies. Others might wish to call them 'Essenes' or 'Zealots'... But they also display characteristics of what in other quarters are being called Nazoraeans/Nazrenes/Jewish Christians or Ebionites.
— Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus, Chp.3 pp.35-36
Here Eisenman lumps all these groups together as being somehow related as opposition groups to the Herodian Establishment. Ovadyah 22:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
That takes care of the page numbers in the History section other than Tabor. I'm beginning to wonder, based on the Eisenman citations from the index, if Michael has even cracked the book. He may just be looking at the index on Amazon and whatever he can pick up on web searches. That would certainly explain some of the stupid mistakes and taking things out of context. Ovadyah 02:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I checked the rest of the sections, and the page requests look like they have been met. Maccoby is now sourced with page numbers throughout, and as I said, the 1998 Tabor article is online and all of two pages long. Someone still needs to verify the accuracy of the page numbers for Tabor's Jesus Dynasty. I left all the requests for page numbers in place so someone else can check them. Ovadyah 02:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Please let me know if the literature cites and page numbers for Eisenman are ok by Tuesday. I checked out all of the multiple page references Michael added to the article. Many of them did not support what is being stated in the article or only peripherally. I anyone thinks otherwise, please add them back, but also put the content from those pages here as quotations so it can be verified. Ovadyah 15:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I know it's an odd question, but can anyone tell me why the three sentences are structured in the way they are? I might have thought that the source with the most recent citation may have come first, with the other two later. Right now, it is constructed directly opposite of that. Not necessarily arguing the current structure, just curious. John Carter 21:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is for removal of content from Eisenman and Tabor that has been conflated to make it seem that both sources are in agreement. The consensus of a majority of editors is that these two authors have very different POVs that cannot be combined. The article content will be deconflated here into distinct statements that accurately represent the viewpoints of their respective authors. Ovadyah 19:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to move the disputed content from the History section first. I think the Names section is ok, but I will double-check. This shouldn't take too long if we all work on it together. Another related issue is whether specific content is appropriate to the article. I know this has been a big issue for Str1977. I will move possibly inappropriate content of Eisenman and Tabor here too, and make clear that is the reason for removing it. Ovadyah 20:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I see no problems with the factual accuracy or references in this section. If everyone else agrees, can someone take a stab at rewriting it? The section is too choppy as is, probably resulting from past edit-wars. One possible concern is that there is more discussion about Christians than Ebionites in places. The main point is that the designation 'the Poor' was common to several groups over time, who were not necessarily related, including lastly the Ebionites. Ovadyah 22:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Removing E & T conflated content from the History section. It's impossible to sort out what's conflated sentence by sentence, so I copied over the whole sub-section.
Ovadyah 21:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The remaining content looks ok to me. There are some one-sentence paragraphs that need fixing or expanding. Ovadyah 22:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Removing conflated E & T content and possibly inappropriate content, including material on the Essenes and John the Baptist. Ovadyah 22:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Removing disputed and possibly inappropriate content to the talk page. Ovadyah 22:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, this section should broken up into actual views and practices. Whether the Essene connection belongs in there is also dubious to me. Especially sentences like "Regarding the Ebionites specifically, a number of scholars have different theories on how the Ebionites may have developed from an Essene Jewish messianic sect." and "Hans-Joachim Schoeps argues that the conversion of some Essenes to Jewish Christianity after the Siege ..." looks more like history to me. Str1977 (talk) 06:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Please review the remaining material in the article for stability (1e), neutrality (1d), and factual accuracy (1c). I would like to report to FAR that the remaining content is clean, and we are making progress on the rest. Indicate your agreement or disagreement. If any editors disagree, please give specific comments on the remaining content that needs to be fixed. Ovadyah 01:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
*Agree
Ovadyah 01:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Not quite there yet, see below.
Ovadyah 14:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem is a conflation of Eisenman & Tabor re the opposition High Priest. The content is technically true in a narrow sense, but not accurate. Both authors do see James as an opposition High Priest, but Eisenman goes further than this. He identifies James specifically as the Teacher of Righteousness. This conjecture has been widely refuted by other scholars, along with the more general conjecture that the Essenes were the early Christians. Therefore, we need to deconflate the two authors and either remove Eisenman or report his views more accurately. Ovadyah 14:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Copied James content to the talk page to deconflate E & T. Ovadyah 14:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
John, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, so I copied the Lead section here. The current version is much choppier than the FA version. You can link to some previous versions in the FAR comment box or view them at Ebionites/wip. Ovadyah 20:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This was the FA version, so apparently the references became separated from the text during the edit-wars. Ovadyah 21:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The FA version was changed because it was empty words: "disciples of the early Jerusalem church" - no one disputes this. The newer version is the gist of what Eisenman and Tabor are saying. Str1977 (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I decided to be bold and make the change. We now have two Schoeps references. Is that one too many? Ovadyah 02:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
To speak about their marginalisation only makes sense if they were mainstream before. I really don't see what the problem was with the former version (apart from the small paragraphs). Str1977 (talk) 06:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone (besides me) think the Lead is still too sparse? It used to say a lot more about scholar's views of specific Ebionite beliefs and practices. It also had their views of Paul as an apostate from the Law. We could say something like, "Some modern scholars believe that the Ebionites revered James the Just as their spiritual leader and rejected Paul as an apostate from the Law." Ovadyah 17:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, are the editors aware that it is not a requirement to add references to the Lead, as long as they are somewhere in the body of the article? We put them in anyway because of frequent challenges to the content by drive-by editors. Ovadyah 17:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's a paragraph from the Lead in January to illustrate what I mean. The FA version is more stripped down because a "certain-someone" insisted on adding material about the Essenes and JTB. The compromise to make that go away was to remove a good deal of the content. Ovadyah 17:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
'Beyond doubt (Ebionism) goes back to a self-designation of this group, rather than to the two Pauline passages in which the Apostle chances to speak of the 'poor' in the primitive Church (Gal.2:10; Rom.15:26). Nor is it to be understood as a representation of the actual state of their fortunes, but as a religious confession: 'Despite our poverty, nay on account of our very poverty, God has chosen us.' They connect the beatitudes of the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20f) with themselves, consider themselves the brothers of poor Lazarus, above all they appropriate the numerous passages of the Old Testament in which 'the poor' is a designation either of the people of Israel as a whole or of the true Israel, the pious among the people, and consider it their right to designate themselves thus as being the truly righteous and beloved of God, as the elect who are certain of a glorious future (ref Count von Baudissin). Thus there is present here, as in the name Nazarene, a relic of the earlier period, which was not washed away by the development in the empire. How perplexed the men of the great Church were made by this name is shown by their attempt at its explanation. Besides relating it to the mythical Ebion, they speak of the 'poor' mode of thought of these people, especially the poor Christology; but they no longer understand its original meaning. So much the more evident is the connection of heretical Christianity with the primitive Church on this point' Johannes Weiss, Earliest Christianity: A History of the Period A.D.30-150, vol.2 (1937)1965 Harper Torchbook ed.New York p731 Nishidani 17:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Link to the January 12, 2007 version [5]. Ovadyah 00:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Pasted references here to make it easier to update them in the current article. Ovadyah 00:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
There are three bibliographical issues:
These issues certainly are not very pressing but I wanted to raise them nonetheless. Str1977 (talk) 06:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, using encyclopedias as sources is discouraged by Wikipedia because they are considered tertiary sources. I would avoid it in an FA if possible, unless we tried and can't get the info any other way. Ovadyah 14:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
John, you added the citation from the Encyclopedia of Religion. Do you still want this material to stay in the Lead section? If so, we need clarification as requested above. Thanks. Ovadyah 17:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Before we go any farther on creating separate Notes and References sections, I want editors to be aware that we had that before (see link above to Jan. 12 2007 version), and we had to change the whole reference structure. I will try to locate the diff where FAC told us to change it. Ovadyah 15:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
This section is way too choppy in terms of writing style. All the single-sentence paragraphs simply will not do for a FA. Also, two sections are about early Christians rather than Ebionites. I'm going to do some cutting to eliminate the isolated fragments. They either need to be expanded, consolidated, or stay eliminated. Ovadyah 02:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the article is somewhat improved in terms of sytle, but it could use another going over. However, keep in mind that a lot more noodling on the article's content will defeat the claim that the article is stable. Ovadyah 03:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is much closer now to addressing the issue of (1a). Loremaster indicated he might stop by, if things are quiet, to polish up the writing a bit more. After that, I would be fine with telling FAR we are finished with our changes and asking for a revote. However, before that happens, we need to address a few issues related to content:
1. The structure of the article.
Str1977 has indicated a preference to add back a section on Patristic Fathers that was created from the History section and later removed. I would like all the editors to weigh in on this idea.
The Views and Practices section used to have separate sub-sections for Judaic and Gnostic Ebionites (a third section on the Essenes has been removed). Should we go back to separate subsections or leave them combined?
The editors are vacillating between the single Reference section we have currently and going back to separate Notes and References sections. This should be discussed among all the editors, and I would like to get an opinion from FAR before we change anything.
2. Disputed content
Should we make it a priority to deconflate the disputed content and restore some of it to the article? This relates to a more general discussion, long overdue, about weighting the traditional/mainstream view vs. the Eisenman/Maccoby/Tabor alternative views.
If we are going to make changes to the structure and content of the article, I suggest that now is the time or hold your peace. Noodling on the article is, in part, why we are in this mess. It creates the impression that the article is unstable and invites further changes. Ovadyah 22:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the things that has concerned me for a long time about the "traditional" view is that the sources are 70-plus years old. The assumption is that this view continues to be the "mainstream" view, and it is not reported because there is nothing more to be said. However, that is an argument from silence. Loremaster and I diligently searched the literature going back 30 years, and we found nothing mainstream on the Ebionites. We were criticized as being biased for the lack of sources in the article. A new exhaustive search was done going back 100-plus years resulting in much of the new material added to the article. The question I still have is, what is the current mainstream view? I contacted several academics, including Mark Goodacre, James Tabor, Bart Ehrman, and Ed Sanders, in an attempt to get at the answer. What am I missing? Ovadyah 14:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It could be argued that Maccoby started a new quest for the history of the Ebionites by making six propositions in his book "The Mythmaker" that are not unlike Luther nailing his theses to the church door. That would be a good place to start a discussion about alternative views. Ovadyah 14:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that the article will fail in FAR (see FAR comments). No matter how hard we work to fix it, new reasons will appear to take their place. Therefore, I am finished editing this article. Ovadyah 01:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been caught up in a rather extraordinary futile piece of accusatory litigation elsewhere and keeping my record free of taint has taken my time away from this page. I can't find the page where the FAR comments you allude to are. Could I ask you to do me the courtesy to specify where I can find it, so I can examine it? Thanks, and best wishes Nishidani 09:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the three links to note 12 are necessarily required for the article. As they are from a personal webpage, I was wondering if there would be any objection to removing them. That might call for a change in the image, though. John Carter 14:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
After reading the FAR, I thought I might look at the remarks regarding style and examine the text from that angle. I immediately noticed, 'elucidating on' in an awkward sentence, and emended. But I do not want to proceed off my own bat. I can understand this side merits attention because of the enormous amount of hard labour on the content that recent disputes have engendered.
So I will make my suggestions here:-
Apropos. 'Church Fathers, who . .whom,'
If this approach to style disturbs the sense of the text, or is inferior, let me know. It is only a quick suggestion, nothing more. Nishidani 16:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Remove. There are still a lot of issues. I just fixed the footnote punctuation per WP:FN (haven't had to do that in a very long time, so just noting it so that regular editors will be aware).
See WP:MOS regarding use of e.g. There is a likely copyvio citation to a geocities personal website, not a reliable source. Many publishers aren't identified on sources, making it difficult to evaluate reliability of sources without clicking on each source.
(ah, and I see I asked for this to be attended to during the FAC, and apparently it never was.) For example, one sources is selfhelp-guide.com; is that a reliable source?
Is hebrew4christians.com a reliable source?
There are still citation needs, samples only:
There are still copyedit needs and redundant prose, samples only:
Then further on again, we find Church Fathers linked.
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I moved Sandy's FARC comments to the talk page so they can be addressed more easily. I will work on these as I have time, since it seems clear by now that no one else will. Ovadyah 22:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Sandy, I think I have addressed all of your initial comments. Ovadyah 01:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
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