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A fact from Eating utensil etiquette appeared on Wikipedia's
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To the author: Great article. :-) That's what I like about Wikipedia: these little pieces of culture and cultural differences that you won't find documented elsewhere. Simon A. 19:21, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
If only someone had told me these differences existed before I married my American wife (I'm from the UK).... The only real comment I have is that the zig zag method must be better for you, since the switching, putting down, swapping etc between each bit must slow the eater and improve digestion. Jonathan from England. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.11.108.93 (
talk)
00:48, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Wonderful article. Who coined the term "zigzag"?
I think this manner of eating is also done here in Canada as well. At least, I do something that approximates this, though my table manners are not exactly perfect. :) Can any other Canadians corroborate? -- Saforrest 19:47, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed that a lot of "zig zag" eaters eat with hats on backward at the table and talk in grunts and monosyllables. Is this also socially significant?????
In England, it is also more common to hold the fork "upside down" and push the food onto the prongs of fork with the knife.
Eating technique varies with the thing being eaten. Some foods are more scoopable than stabbable. I never knew there was a technical term for this eating method though! Paul Tracy
It's been interesting coming to live in Canada from the UK. People say that eating the European way instead of 'zigzagging' actually is a more efficient way of eating, and also looks better. I am having considerable difficulty getting my 9 y o daughter to eat the 'correct' way.
While I of course can not speak for every Pole here, but I'd like to point out that zigzag method is considered unpolite here in Poland. Zigzag method is permitted for very young children or in very non-formal circumtances. Przepla 18:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not a Pole or a Scot. I'm an American. My understanding of the above, is that Europeans (especially Poles and Scots) in the US eating in their customary manner (European Style) would be showing good manners and good upbringing. Any Americans at their table or any surrounding tables, mind you this is in the US, eating in their customary manner(American Method) would be *demonstrating a distinct lack of manners and a bad upbringing*. What drivel. BTW The Poles showed up two(2) weeks late for the US Bicentennial in 1976. Bad manners or just being Polish? Puts one in mind of the Polish Mine Detector. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.223.160 ( talk • contribs)
In India you eat with the right hand, touching the food with the tips of your fingers only. It is very rude to use the left hand when eating (because you are supposed to wash your ass with the left hand, not to use toilet paper). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgius ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Do Americans generally eat like this? I seems like a lot of work, changing hands constantly? - Matthew238 03:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
This discussion, while interesting, is not particularly useful: A verifiable reference giving percentages of European v. American utensil-handling styles in the States would be much more helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.166.60.151 ( talk) 16:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
I have heard the zig-zag method is to cut a piece of the food, put down the knife and eat the piece with only the fork, and thereafter again pick up the knife to cut a new piece and eat that with only the fork, and so on. But this way of eating is not at all flexible. If one should eat with only the fork, then isn't it more flexible to cut the whole food into pieces first and thereafter eat with only the fork, or is that way of eating perceived as unproper?
I don't know exactly what's the reason to the etiquette that when eating a steak, one is supposed to cut and eat one piece at a time, but I have heard that "if the whole of the steak is cut into pieces, it gets colder faster". But does this reason really mean one is forced to cut one piece at a time? I don't think I'm absolutely forced, or either forced at all, to cut one piece at a time. Just because a steak gets colder, it doesn't mean its taste will be worsening, how may its taste be worsening if it gets colder? And if its taste isn't worsening, then what's the difference? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 13:19, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
As a (British) child I had to ask at table if I may turn my fork over in order to scoop up food. This request was usually granted, albeit grudgingly. We were reminded of how "common" people ate (pronounced "et" in those days) by the rhyme: He eats his peas with honey He´s done it all his life It makes the peas taste funny But it keeps them on his knife.
I want to ask the question, "How does a proper Brit eat peas?" Do I recall correctly that it is with what we Americans would call a butter knife? If so, what do you call this knife? I assume it is not the same knife that one uses for cutting steak? Doesn't it seem inefficient? On another note, I've tried to eat, keeping the fork in my left hand. It feels very unnatural to me as I am not used to it. The fork-switching is used only in the most proper setting. With family or friends we don't typically bother. The fork switching is quite tiresome. Of course there are families that insist on their children doing the fork switching thing; to eat that way every time. It just depends on what people prefer. But it, or the European method should be followed when eating with someone of importance (That is, in the U.S.) Scot.parker 22:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
To answer your question about Brits eating peas. Mashed Potatoes are ubiquitous with their meals. Put some mash on your fork, dip it in the peas witch stick to the mash then eat. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
216.37.223.160 (
talk)
01:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
The British method of eating does indeed require smashing the food to the convex tines so that it sticks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.129.119.92 ( talk) 01:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I was asked by Secular mind why I put {{OR}} (original research) on the article. It looks like most of the claims have been verified by people on this talk page. Perhaps {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}} would have been better, as there are no citations. I will replace {{OR}} with {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}}. -- Midnightcomm 14:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is a site the authors of this site should have a look at: [2]. Just a suggestion and FYI: both the Euro continental method and the Zig-Zag method are used in the US, with the former being depending on envrionment seen as more appropriate in elegant settings. To be honest I have a spent a large part of my life in the US where I currently life and zig-zagging in a nice resturant is not that common. But this article shouldn't be based on people's experiences. Both methods are used in the US, as my research indicates. Please lets add some sources. Signature brendel 07:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I read somewhere the fork in the right hand was a way to differentiate from the English in colonial American pubs? But can not find any reference to this.
Or is this another difference between America and the rest of the world? I've travelled the globe, many times over, but have never stayed for more than a stop over in America and I've always been drilled by my parents from a young age that you use your utensils from the inside out. Thus making room from an entree plate for a main plate, et cetera. 211.30.71.59 08:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh yeah? Neither Korea nor Taiwan have the concept of a *starting dish*. Maybe Europeans don't consider them as part of the world. I spent 15 months in the former and 13 months in the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.223.160 ( talk) 13:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
In Europe, the fork is held pretty much as in the states - the tines pointing down and pressed into what is being cut, then turned to be held somewhat like a pencil to allow greater movability. This allows the end of the fork to move straight into the mouth of the consumer without the need to move the elbow above the table (which is considered rude unless it is required in order to reach something in front of you). Also, unless absolutely necessary, it is considered rude to cut off more than one will eat in a single bite.
Furthermore, indicating that one has finished his/her course is done by placing fork and knife on the plate in parallel in a "twenty past five" postition. Resting the utencils for any other reason is done in the most practical way - preferably without crossing more than the blade of the knife by the tines of the fork.
In contrast to the American method of using a fork much like a spoon (tines up), the Europeans primarily use the fork with tines facing away from the user (tines down). Only in Britain, this method is widely correct. In most continental Countrys this would be considered bad table manners.
212.97.128.218 16:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Since this is the *European utensil handling* section, it should be mentioned that when they want to emphasize a point in their table talk they'll jab their knife or fork at people and/or wave them in the air. I was never able to ascertain the proper way to do this. Do you wave them clockwise or counter clockwise? As an aside I want to mention that when I was close enough to hear the conversation (12 or 13m) all I heard were grunts and multi syllable guttural sounds. Could be they weren't talking, just eating. They wore their hats correctly, bill forward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.223.160 ( talk) 14:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of what is prevalent throughout the world, it is not up to wikipedians to name something the "Standard Method". These two methods are known by their respective names in the English speaking world. You can claim the "continental" method is more prevalent, and I can claim that the American method is equally codified, and one saves time and energy, and one looks more dainty, or less ridiculous, or that both are an insult to the chef by suggesting that the diner must continue to prepare the food after it has been served, or that serving food that requires cutting in the first place is barbaric and antiquated, and only a fork should be required, but none of these opinions can create a claim to what is the "Standard Method." -- Njsustain ( talk) 19:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have no objection to someone claiming that it is one valid POV that the European standard is correct and the other method is not considered correct in Europe, if you can find a relevent reference for it, but one from 1878 is simply not... it's just ridiculous to list that as a reference to justify what you believe is a current acceptable cultural practice. If you can't find a reasobaly current one, then you have no more justification for making your claims than anyone else. And yes, I do believe that what Emily Post said in 1922 is not necessarily considered correct etiquette today.
With all due respect, this seems to border on calling people rude because of their style of eating, and that refernce you had included some very crass words that people simply don't use in polite conversations about proper behavior. The rudest thing of all is to call other people rude, and suggesting that certain people are not of proper breeding is absolutely archaic etiquette, even in discussions of the rules. Please find a modern relevant reference or drop this. Njsustain ( talk) 19:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
By which reason is holding a fork in the right hand perceived as rude in Europe? I have learnt there are some exceptional cases when one may eat with only a fork, when eating dishes which only require a fork to eat. Besides that, I don't think it's proper to say eating with only a fork is bad table manners. At least in Sweden, where I'm living, it has become more common that people switch side on the knife and fork by the following reasons:
In America it's relatively common that people cut the food into pieces and thereafter eat with just the fork, but by which reason is that way of eating perceived as rude in Europe? I don't think it's any difference between eating so in America and in Europe. Just because it is "traditional etiquette" to cut and eat one piece at a time in America as well as in Europe, I don't think one is absolutely forced, or either forced at all, to do so. What's the difference between cutting one piece at a time and cutting the whole of the food into pieces? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 13:50, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Is there really a need to discuss what's "correct" in an article describing the differences from one region of the world to another? What difference does it make whether a minority or majority use a particular style, in terms of educating through discussion how customs vary from one part of the world to another, on a subject where the major claims are rooted in an ambiguous "correctness" or citations of superiority of particular technique that may not truly bear out in all circumstances?
For example, in China, the majority of people tolerate communism. Does that make communism correct?
Having just spent a month traveling through Europe, watching people eat, I can assure you that the American style is not "unheard of" nor is the "continental" style without its flaws. Watching Europeans struggle with forking particulate food using the Euro style was no less painful than watching someone switch utensils in the American style.
Anyway, go ahead and insist that you are correct, or that someone else is wrong, if it cements your sense of superiority. But in the end what differences does it make to you, and why are you so offended, if someone uses their utensils differently from you, if it's effective for them? The actual vast majority of the world's population eats with sticks or their fingers. So if you want to talk pure majorities, utensils themselves are "incorrect."
Don't be so haughty, and demand that everyone do things the way that you do.
This article begs for photos or diagrams of the different ways to hold and use the fork.-- 84.20.17.84 16:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems a bit odd to me to start the article with the "American method", specifying that it's the style mostly used in the US, and then go on to say that practically everywhere else the "European method" is preferred. Shouldn't the article state the (globally) more applicable etiquette first? MCSmarties ( talk) 20:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Should the American way read that the fork is held on the *left* hand, and then switched to the right hand? 200.9.3.65 ( talk) 15:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
A section on chopsticks that is not in standard English (this is English WP after all) does not justify the movement of Fork Etiquette to Eating Utensil. I think Fork Etiquette should be restored. Njsustain ( talk) 21:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Moving this article has made way for a section on spoon etiquette - slurping, holding-style, soup spoon vs. dessert spoon. Leegee23 ( talk) 16:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
1. Both methods are acceptable in North America but is the American Method considered proper etiquette elsewhere?
2. The term "Continental Method" is only used in the USA. The people who use this method don't call it that nor are they all from Europe. Can we find a better description? Nick ( talk) 20:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Re Acceptability: A number of users on this talk page have commented that the American fork method is not considered proper etiquette in their country so the article should not indicate that it is considered standard worldwide. The only candidate for a country where it is considered standard apart from the USA is Canada. It is difficult to find sources saying this explicitly but I have found these quotes:
The second quote is not very recent but no one has presented any other quotes to suggest that rules have changed since then.
These last two quotes suggest that American customs may be tolerated from American tourists but are by no means considered proper table manners in those countries.
Re name: I suggested "standard method" because it's the only acceptable method in any country that uses knives and forks, execept the USA (and maybe Canada). I'm not particularly wedded to that name, it just bothers me that the people who use this method don't call it that ( Wikipedia:ENGVAR) nor are they all from Europe. If "standard" is too tendentious, I'd settle for the "two-handed method" or something equally descriptive. Nick ( talk) 23:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
"American" and "European" without "continental". "Continental" is confusing to UK readers because it implies that this method is peculiar to continental Europe and is not used in the UK. Although the European method is not restricted to Europe it originated there and thus "European" is a fair description. The terms are also simple, and less PoV than say "Standard". Martin Hogbin ( talk) 22:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Should some mention be made of using the fork only (even when the table may have been laid with a knife and fork) for dishes such as rice or pasta which do not require the use of a knife? In the UK at least, it has become acceptable in most circles to use a fork only (held tines up in the dominant hand) in these cases. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 22:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
In Colombia rice and soup are often part of a regular meal and therefore the table is laid with knife, fork and spoon. The fork is held both with the right and left hand during the course of the same meal. I have to tell that I know nothing for certain about etiquette, but that is just the way I haver seen it is around here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jucalon ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I think it should be OK to eat with only the fork even when eating a steak. A steak only requires a knife for cutting it into smaller pieces, but one can cut it into pieces first and thereafter eat with only the fork, or is that way of eating perceived as improper? However, I think it's improper to say it's not right to cut the food into pieces and eat with only the fork. One is not absolutely forced, or either forced at all, to cut and eat one piece at a time, at least not according to the reason that a steak is supposed to be cut in one piece at a time: I have heard this reason is that "If you cut the whole of the steak into pieces, it gets colder faster.". However, I don't think it's anything wrong with eating it when it's colder rather than when it's kept warm, 'cause what's the difference? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 12:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
In the "European Style" section describing why Americans use their forks differently than other parts of the British empire needs a citation. It states that the American colonies were establisbed before the fork and fork ettiquette became common usage in Europe yet other places, such as Canada, were settled just as early as the American colonies and yet it states that Canada uses the British usage. This passages needs to be clarified and citations are needed.
The claim that the side-switching American style was the original European style is supported only by a link to a popular newspaper column by Judith Martin (Miss Manners). This column has no further references. It is obviously not an authoritative source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.179.19.153 ( talk) 00:29, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
In the article Australia is lumped in with the UK and the rest of the Commonwealth with the rule of knife always in right hand, fork always in left.
It's certainly not true in Australia -- or at least of my social stratum in Australia (middle class, Irish background).
I'm not going to go looking for sources to back up what I say so I won't update the article, but Australian etiquette as I was taught is:
-- 203.202.43.54 ( talk) 03:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
This is becoming generally more acceptable in the UK also, except at the most formal occasions, especially for 'fork only' foods. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 16:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I think the best thing is to say that European style is only considered essential (in Europe) on fairly formal occasions. I am sure that in most countries of the world there has been a general relaxation of eating rules in most circumstances. The article might say something along these lines. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 16:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I have removed some of the the 'citation needed' tags from the European style section. Whilst I agree that reliable sources are generally required I suggest that this is not so for something that is a daily occurrence for hundreds of millions of people. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 16:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
As a born American citizen, I have never seen anyone American use the so-called "zig-zag method" (in fact the only person in my recollection who I have seen use it was Chinese). What I HAVE seen is a lot of people who, like myself, hold the fork with their right hand and the knife with their left hand throughout the duration of the meal. Are there different practices throughout the US, or is this simply a case of a generality I have somehow managed to avoid? FYI I'm originally from Oregon but currently live in Indiana. In Oregon everyone I knew held their utensils as I do. Virtually everyone I know here is from abroad, so I naturally see a lot of "European method", I can't speak for native Indianans. -- GregorR ( talk) 12:54, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
The whole section on fork etiquette is/was focused solely on what to do with your fork after cutting meat. Newsflash, the fork is used for other foods besides steak. The fork is used to consume food without cutting. In fact, it is considered proper to cut food with the side of your fork if it is capable of doing so without using a knife. The entire section needs to be rewritten. I don't really feel like it right now, but thought I'd mention it here. Njsustain ( talk) 23:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Please let us not get into an East vs West or US vs UK vs Europe fight about which method is the 'best'. They are a social customs used in different places. None is inherently better or worse than any other. Martin Hogbin ( talk)
As I am a vegetarian and never need to use a knife to cut food on my plate, I assure you my interest is strictly academic. Njsustain ( talk) 20:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Mr. Hogbin, I find it odd and puzzling that you removed a reference along with referenced information, and then added a tag requesting a reference. It seems you are the one trying to start a fight for no reason. Njsustain ( talk) 14:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I think the article should be rewritten using 'dominant' and 'weak' hand instead of left and right because most left handed people do things the opposite way that right handed people do, such as using a fork and knife. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.127.32 ( talk) 08:52, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the following section headed "Mongolian etiquette":
"Proceed to grab fork with dominate hand with fork tines pointing down. Then sink tines into whole food and take mouthful bites vigorously . Quickly chew , while grabbing a beverage and wash it down.[citation needed]"
It seems to be a crude attempt at humour: Other sources indicate that the behaviour suggested would give as much offence in Mongolia as anywhere else in the world: http://www.safaritheglobe.com/food_mongolia.aspx, http://www.mongolian-ways.com/customs.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.158.25 ( talk) 14:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
The style described in the 'European' section is actually the British style. In Germany and I think most of Continental Europe you won't see many trying to stick their peas onto the back of the fork. Knife and fork are both kept in hand. But it is tines down for meat and spearing things and tines up for rice, peas and the like, assistance with the knive if needed. Pretty much exactly what is described as 'new' hybrid style here.
For reference: http://www.knigge.de/archiv/ihre-fragen/die-tischmanieren---gabel-halten-11398.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.252.125.9 ( talk) 19:45, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
This article has been flagged as a how-to/guide, which is something that doesn't have a place on Wikipedia (see WP:NOTADVICE). I think there needs to be a discussion on whether this article a) fits into this how-to category; and b) whether it should be re-written or deleted if it is a how-to. I personally feel deletion would be pretty extreme - I reckon if the article was rewritten in a more descriptive style instead of an imperative style, then it would be in keeping with the Wikipedia guidelines. OliverEastwood ( talk) 03:21, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
BHB95 ( talk · contribs)/ 90.226.9.16 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS), the version of the article that you keep reverting to is completely inappropriate. You deleted sources; added opinion, original research, and crystal-ball gazing, and tagged well-sourced information with a dozen "why" and "dubious".
Further, you have reverted several improvements to the article that address the concerns you were raising, including sourced content that explains the history of why the styles developed the way they did.-- Trystan ( talk) 15:17, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Per the above, I had restored the article and done considerable further work on it to add sources, trim unsourced, and shift to a more encyclopedic, descriptive article and away from one that read like a how-to. The above user has reverted all of those changes. Any input from other editors would be appreciated.-- Trystan ( talk) 23:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Why are all types of table practises "discriminating" against left-handed people? For example, when eating without the knife, one is supposed to hold the fork in the right hand, which I think is discriminating left-handed people. The perception that one should eat with the right hand might have been the reason that people living in the past thought it was right to force left-handed children to eat with the right hand and not the left, but it isn't right.
I also wonder, why do many parents, especially in Europe, say it's bad table manners to cut the whole of the food into pieces and eat with only the fork? Normally, I am cutting the food into pieces and then eating with only the fork, and I want to know why that is claimed to be bad table manners. Aren't many American people eating in that way? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 19:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from Eating utensil etiquette appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 September 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
To the author: Great article. :-) That's what I like about Wikipedia: these little pieces of culture and cultural differences that you won't find documented elsewhere. Simon A. 19:21, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
If only someone had told me these differences existed before I married my American wife (I'm from the UK).... The only real comment I have is that the zig zag method must be better for you, since the switching, putting down, swapping etc between each bit must slow the eater and improve digestion. Jonathan from England. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.11.108.93 (
talk)
00:48, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Wonderful article. Who coined the term "zigzag"?
I think this manner of eating is also done here in Canada as well. At least, I do something that approximates this, though my table manners are not exactly perfect. :) Can any other Canadians corroborate? -- Saforrest 19:47, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
I have noticed that a lot of "zig zag" eaters eat with hats on backward at the table and talk in grunts and monosyllables. Is this also socially significant?????
In England, it is also more common to hold the fork "upside down" and push the food onto the prongs of fork with the knife.
Eating technique varies with the thing being eaten. Some foods are more scoopable than stabbable. I never knew there was a technical term for this eating method though! Paul Tracy
It's been interesting coming to live in Canada from the UK. People say that eating the European way instead of 'zigzagging' actually is a more efficient way of eating, and also looks better. I am having considerable difficulty getting my 9 y o daughter to eat the 'correct' way.
While I of course can not speak for every Pole here, but I'd like to point out that zigzag method is considered unpolite here in Poland. Zigzag method is permitted for very young children or in very non-formal circumtances. Przepla 18:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not a Pole or a Scot. I'm an American. My understanding of the above, is that Europeans (especially Poles and Scots) in the US eating in their customary manner (European Style) would be showing good manners and good upbringing. Any Americans at their table or any surrounding tables, mind you this is in the US, eating in their customary manner(American Method) would be *demonstrating a distinct lack of manners and a bad upbringing*. What drivel. BTW The Poles showed up two(2) weeks late for the US Bicentennial in 1976. Bad manners or just being Polish? Puts one in mind of the Polish Mine Detector. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.223.160 ( talk • contribs)
In India you eat with the right hand, touching the food with the tips of your fingers only. It is very rude to use the left hand when eating (because you are supposed to wash your ass with the left hand, not to use toilet paper). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgius ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Do Americans generally eat like this? I seems like a lot of work, changing hands constantly? - Matthew238 03:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
This discussion, while interesting, is not particularly useful: A verifiable reference giving percentages of European v. American utensil-handling styles in the States would be much more helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.166.60.151 ( talk) 16:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
I have heard the zig-zag method is to cut a piece of the food, put down the knife and eat the piece with only the fork, and thereafter again pick up the knife to cut a new piece and eat that with only the fork, and so on. But this way of eating is not at all flexible. If one should eat with only the fork, then isn't it more flexible to cut the whole food into pieces first and thereafter eat with only the fork, or is that way of eating perceived as unproper?
I don't know exactly what's the reason to the etiquette that when eating a steak, one is supposed to cut and eat one piece at a time, but I have heard that "if the whole of the steak is cut into pieces, it gets colder faster". But does this reason really mean one is forced to cut one piece at a time? I don't think I'm absolutely forced, or either forced at all, to cut one piece at a time. Just because a steak gets colder, it doesn't mean its taste will be worsening, how may its taste be worsening if it gets colder? And if its taste isn't worsening, then what's the difference? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 13:19, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
As a (British) child I had to ask at table if I may turn my fork over in order to scoop up food. This request was usually granted, albeit grudgingly. We were reminded of how "common" people ate (pronounced "et" in those days) by the rhyme: He eats his peas with honey He´s done it all his life It makes the peas taste funny But it keeps them on his knife.
I want to ask the question, "How does a proper Brit eat peas?" Do I recall correctly that it is with what we Americans would call a butter knife? If so, what do you call this knife? I assume it is not the same knife that one uses for cutting steak? Doesn't it seem inefficient? On another note, I've tried to eat, keeping the fork in my left hand. It feels very unnatural to me as I am not used to it. The fork-switching is used only in the most proper setting. With family or friends we don't typically bother. The fork switching is quite tiresome. Of course there are families that insist on their children doing the fork switching thing; to eat that way every time. It just depends on what people prefer. But it, or the European method should be followed when eating with someone of importance (That is, in the U.S.) Scot.parker 22:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
To answer your question about Brits eating peas. Mashed Potatoes are ubiquitous with their meals. Put some mash on your fork, dip it in the peas witch stick to the mash then eat. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
216.37.223.160 (
talk)
01:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
The British method of eating does indeed require smashing the food to the convex tines so that it sticks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.129.119.92 ( talk) 01:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I was asked by Secular mind why I put {{OR}} (original research) on the article. It looks like most of the claims have been verified by people on this talk page. Perhaps {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}} would have been better, as there are no citations. I will replace {{OR}} with {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}}. -- Midnightcomm 14:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is a site the authors of this site should have a look at: [2]. Just a suggestion and FYI: both the Euro continental method and the Zig-Zag method are used in the US, with the former being depending on envrionment seen as more appropriate in elegant settings. To be honest I have a spent a large part of my life in the US where I currently life and zig-zagging in a nice resturant is not that common. But this article shouldn't be based on people's experiences. Both methods are used in the US, as my research indicates. Please lets add some sources. Signature brendel 07:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I read somewhere the fork in the right hand was a way to differentiate from the English in colonial American pubs? But can not find any reference to this.
Or is this another difference between America and the rest of the world? I've travelled the globe, many times over, but have never stayed for more than a stop over in America and I've always been drilled by my parents from a young age that you use your utensils from the inside out. Thus making room from an entree plate for a main plate, et cetera. 211.30.71.59 08:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh yeah? Neither Korea nor Taiwan have the concept of a *starting dish*. Maybe Europeans don't consider them as part of the world. I spent 15 months in the former and 13 months in the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.223.160 ( talk) 13:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
In Europe, the fork is held pretty much as in the states - the tines pointing down and pressed into what is being cut, then turned to be held somewhat like a pencil to allow greater movability. This allows the end of the fork to move straight into the mouth of the consumer without the need to move the elbow above the table (which is considered rude unless it is required in order to reach something in front of you). Also, unless absolutely necessary, it is considered rude to cut off more than one will eat in a single bite.
Furthermore, indicating that one has finished his/her course is done by placing fork and knife on the plate in parallel in a "twenty past five" postition. Resting the utencils for any other reason is done in the most practical way - preferably without crossing more than the blade of the knife by the tines of the fork.
In contrast to the American method of using a fork much like a spoon (tines up), the Europeans primarily use the fork with tines facing away from the user (tines down). Only in Britain, this method is widely correct. In most continental Countrys this would be considered bad table manners.
212.97.128.218 16:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Since this is the *European utensil handling* section, it should be mentioned that when they want to emphasize a point in their table talk they'll jab their knife or fork at people and/or wave them in the air. I was never able to ascertain the proper way to do this. Do you wave them clockwise or counter clockwise? As an aside I want to mention that when I was close enough to hear the conversation (12 or 13m) all I heard were grunts and multi syllable guttural sounds. Could be they weren't talking, just eating. They wore their hats correctly, bill forward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.223.160 ( talk) 14:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of what is prevalent throughout the world, it is not up to wikipedians to name something the "Standard Method". These two methods are known by their respective names in the English speaking world. You can claim the "continental" method is more prevalent, and I can claim that the American method is equally codified, and one saves time and energy, and one looks more dainty, or less ridiculous, or that both are an insult to the chef by suggesting that the diner must continue to prepare the food after it has been served, or that serving food that requires cutting in the first place is barbaric and antiquated, and only a fork should be required, but none of these opinions can create a claim to what is the "Standard Method." -- Njsustain ( talk) 19:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have no objection to someone claiming that it is one valid POV that the European standard is correct and the other method is not considered correct in Europe, if you can find a relevent reference for it, but one from 1878 is simply not... it's just ridiculous to list that as a reference to justify what you believe is a current acceptable cultural practice. If you can't find a reasobaly current one, then you have no more justification for making your claims than anyone else. And yes, I do believe that what Emily Post said in 1922 is not necessarily considered correct etiquette today.
With all due respect, this seems to border on calling people rude because of their style of eating, and that refernce you had included some very crass words that people simply don't use in polite conversations about proper behavior. The rudest thing of all is to call other people rude, and suggesting that certain people are not of proper breeding is absolutely archaic etiquette, even in discussions of the rules. Please find a modern relevant reference or drop this. Njsustain ( talk) 19:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
By which reason is holding a fork in the right hand perceived as rude in Europe? I have learnt there are some exceptional cases when one may eat with only a fork, when eating dishes which only require a fork to eat. Besides that, I don't think it's proper to say eating with only a fork is bad table manners. At least in Sweden, where I'm living, it has become more common that people switch side on the knife and fork by the following reasons:
In America it's relatively common that people cut the food into pieces and thereafter eat with just the fork, but by which reason is that way of eating perceived as rude in Europe? I don't think it's any difference between eating so in America and in Europe. Just because it is "traditional etiquette" to cut and eat one piece at a time in America as well as in Europe, I don't think one is absolutely forced, or either forced at all, to do so. What's the difference between cutting one piece at a time and cutting the whole of the food into pieces? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 13:50, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Is there really a need to discuss what's "correct" in an article describing the differences from one region of the world to another? What difference does it make whether a minority or majority use a particular style, in terms of educating through discussion how customs vary from one part of the world to another, on a subject where the major claims are rooted in an ambiguous "correctness" or citations of superiority of particular technique that may not truly bear out in all circumstances?
For example, in China, the majority of people tolerate communism. Does that make communism correct?
Having just spent a month traveling through Europe, watching people eat, I can assure you that the American style is not "unheard of" nor is the "continental" style without its flaws. Watching Europeans struggle with forking particulate food using the Euro style was no less painful than watching someone switch utensils in the American style.
Anyway, go ahead and insist that you are correct, or that someone else is wrong, if it cements your sense of superiority. But in the end what differences does it make to you, and why are you so offended, if someone uses their utensils differently from you, if it's effective for them? The actual vast majority of the world's population eats with sticks or their fingers. So if you want to talk pure majorities, utensils themselves are "incorrect."
Don't be so haughty, and demand that everyone do things the way that you do.
This article begs for photos or diagrams of the different ways to hold and use the fork.-- 84.20.17.84 16:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems a bit odd to me to start the article with the "American method", specifying that it's the style mostly used in the US, and then go on to say that practically everywhere else the "European method" is preferred. Shouldn't the article state the (globally) more applicable etiquette first? MCSmarties ( talk) 20:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Should the American way read that the fork is held on the *left* hand, and then switched to the right hand? 200.9.3.65 ( talk) 15:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
A section on chopsticks that is not in standard English (this is English WP after all) does not justify the movement of Fork Etiquette to Eating Utensil. I think Fork Etiquette should be restored. Njsustain ( talk) 21:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Moving this article has made way for a section on spoon etiquette - slurping, holding-style, soup spoon vs. dessert spoon. Leegee23 ( talk) 16:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
1. Both methods are acceptable in North America but is the American Method considered proper etiquette elsewhere?
2. The term "Continental Method" is only used in the USA. The people who use this method don't call it that nor are they all from Europe. Can we find a better description? Nick ( talk) 20:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Re Acceptability: A number of users on this talk page have commented that the American fork method is not considered proper etiquette in their country so the article should not indicate that it is considered standard worldwide. The only candidate for a country where it is considered standard apart from the USA is Canada. It is difficult to find sources saying this explicitly but I have found these quotes:
The second quote is not very recent but no one has presented any other quotes to suggest that rules have changed since then.
These last two quotes suggest that American customs may be tolerated from American tourists but are by no means considered proper table manners in those countries.
Re name: I suggested "standard method" because it's the only acceptable method in any country that uses knives and forks, execept the USA (and maybe Canada). I'm not particularly wedded to that name, it just bothers me that the people who use this method don't call it that ( Wikipedia:ENGVAR) nor are they all from Europe. If "standard" is too tendentious, I'd settle for the "two-handed method" or something equally descriptive. Nick ( talk) 23:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
"American" and "European" without "continental". "Continental" is confusing to UK readers because it implies that this method is peculiar to continental Europe and is not used in the UK. Although the European method is not restricted to Europe it originated there and thus "European" is a fair description. The terms are also simple, and less PoV than say "Standard". Martin Hogbin ( talk) 22:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Should some mention be made of using the fork only (even when the table may have been laid with a knife and fork) for dishes such as rice or pasta which do not require the use of a knife? In the UK at least, it has become acceptable in most circles to use a fork only (held tines up in the dominant hand) in these cases. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 22:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
In Colombia rice and soup are often part of a regular meal and therefore the table is laid with knife, fork and spoon. The fork is held both with the right and left hand during the course of the same meal. I have to tell that I know nothing for certain about etiquette, but that is just the way I haver seen it is around here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jucalon ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I think it should be OK to eat with only the fork even when eating a steak. A steak only requires a knife for cutting it into smaller pieces, but one can cut it into pieces first and thereafter eat with only the fork, or is that way of eating perceived as improper? However, I think it's improper to say it's not right to cut the food into pieces and eat with only the fork. One is not absolutely forced, or either forced at all, to cut and eat one piece at a time, at least not according to the reason that a steak is supposed to be cut in one piece at a time: I have heard this reason is that "If you cut the whole of the steak into pieces, it gets colder faster.". However, I don't think it's anything wrong with eating it when it's colder rather than when it's kept warm, 'cause what's the difference? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 12:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
In the "European Style" section describing why Americans use their forks differently than other parts of the British empire needs a citation. It states that the American colonies were establisbed before the fork and fork ettiquette became common usage in Europe yet other places, such as Canada, were settled just as early as the American colonies and yet it states that Canada uses the British usage. This passages needs to be clarified and citations are needed.
The claim that the side-switching American style was the original European style is supported only by a link to a popular newspaper column by Judith Martin (Miss Manners). This column has no further references. It is obviously not an authoritative source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.179.19.153 ( talk) 00:29, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
In the article Australia is lumped in with the UK and the rest of the Commonwealth with the rule of knife always in right hand, fork always in left.
It's certainly not true in Australia -- or at least of my social stratum in Australia (middle class, Irish background).
I'm not going to go looking for sources to back up what I say so I won't update the article, but Australian etiquette as I was taught is:
-- 203.202.43.54 ( talk) 03:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
This is becoming generally more acceptable in the UK also, except at the most formal occasions, especially for 'fork only' foods. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 16:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I think the best thing is to say that European style is only considered essential (in Europe) on fairly formal occasions. I am sure that in most countries of the world there has been a general relaxation of eating rules in most circumstances. The article might say something along these lines. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 16:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I have removed some of the the 'citation needed' tags from the European style section. Whilst I agree that reliable sources are generally required I suggest that this is not so for something that is a daily occurrence for hundreds of millions of people. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 16:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
As a born American citizen, I have never seen anyone American use the so-called "zig-zag method" (in fact the only person in my recollection who I have seen use it was Chinese). What I HAVE seen is a lot of people who, like myself, hold the fork with their right hand and the knife with their left hand throughout the duration of the meal. Are there different practices throughout the US, or is this simply a case of a generality I have somehow managed to avoid? FYI I'm originally from Oregon but currently live in Indiana. In Oregon everyone I knew held their utensils as I do. Virtually everyone I know here is from abroad, so I naturally see a lot of "European method", I can't speak for native Indianans. -- GregorR ( talk) 12:54, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
The whole section on fork etiquette is/was focused solely on what to do with your fork after cutting meat. Newsflash, the fork is used for other foods besides steak. The fork is used to consume food without cutting. In fact, it is considered proper to cut food with the side of your fork if it is capable of doing so without using a knife. The entire section needs to be rewritten. I don't really feel like it right now, but thought I'd mention it here. Njsustain ( talk) 23:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Please let us not get into an East vs West or US vs UK vs Europe fight about which method is the 'best'. They are a social customs used in different places. None is inherently better or worse than any other. Martin Hogbin ( talk)
As I am a vegetarian and never need to use a knife to cut food on my plate, I assure you my interest is strictly academic. Njsustain ( talk) 20:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Mr. Hogbin, I find it odd and puzzling that you removed a reference along with referenced information, and then added a tag requesting a reference. It seems you are the one trying to start a fight for no reason. Njsustain ( talk) 14:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I think the article should be rewritten using 'dominant' and 'weak' hand instead of left and right because most left handed people do things the opposite way that right handed people do, such as using a fork and knife. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.127.32 ( talk) 08:52, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the following section headed "Mongolian etiquette":
"Proceed to grab fork with dominate hand with fork tines pointing down. Then sink tines into whole food and take mouthful bites vigorously . Quickly chew , while grabbing a beverage and wash it down.[citation needed]"
It seems to be a crude attempt at humour: Other sources indicate that the behaviour suggested would give as much offence in Mongolia as anywhere else in the world: http://www.safaritheglobe.com/food_mongolia.aspx, http://www.mongolian-ways.com/customs.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.158.25 ( talk) 14:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
The style described in the 'European' section is actually the British style. In Germany and I think most of Continental Europe you won't see many trying to stick their peas onto the back of the fork. Knife and fork are both kept in hand. But it is tines down for meat and spearing things and tines up for rice, peas and the like, assistance with the knive if needed. Pretty much exactly what is described as 'new' hybrid style here.
For reference: http://www.knigge.de/archiv/ihre-fragen/die-tischmanieren---gabel-halten-11398.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.252.125.9 ( talk) 19:45, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
This article has been flagged as a how-to/guide, which is something that doesn't have a place on Wikipedia (see WP:NOTADVICE). I think there needs to be a discussion on whether this article a) fits into this how-to category; and b) whether it should be re-written or deleted if it is a how-to. I personally feel deletion would be pretty extreme - I reckon if the article was rewritten in a more descriptive style instead of an imperative style, then it would be in keeping with the Wikipedia guidelines. OliverEastwood ( talk) 03:21, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
BHB95 ( talk · contribs)/ 90.226.9.16 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS), the version of the article that you keep reverting to is completely inappropriate. You deleted sources; added opinion, original research, and crystal-ball gazing, and tagged well-sourced information with a dozen "why" and "dubious".
Further, you have reverted several improvements to the article that address the concerns you were raising, including sourced content that explains the history of why the styles developed the way they did.-- Trystan ( talk) 15:17, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Per the above, I had restored the article and done considerable further work on it to add sources, trim unsourced, and shift to a more encyclopedic, descriptive article and away from one that read like a how-to. The above user has reverted all of those changes. Any input from other editors would be appreciated.-- Trystan ( talk) 23:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Why are all types of table practises "discriminating" against left-handed people? For example, when eating without the knife, one is supposed to hold the fork in the right hand, which I think is discriminating left-handed people. The perception that one should eat with the right hand might have been the reason that people living in the past thought it was right to force left-handed children to eat with the right hand and not the left, but it isn't right.
I also wonder, why do many parents, especially in Europe, say it's bad table manners to cut the whole of the food into pieces and eat with only the fork? Normally, I am cutting the food into pieces and then eating with only the fork, and I want to know why that is claimed to be bad table manners. Aren't many American people eating in that way? 90.226.9.16 ( talk) 19:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)