![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Csernicka added Easter on the list of May holidays. I reverted that because Christianity has made a point to celebrate it on 25 April at the latest. C. reverted this again with the argument that the Orthodox sometimes celebrate it in May. That would be May in the Gregorian calendar. But in that case the Orthodox use the Julian calendar and still 25 April is the latest date. So I maintain that Easter is not a May holiday. You can not mix calendar systems. I still want this classification removed. Tom Peters 11:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Those entering comments on this page are correct; Pesach (Passover) has nothing to do with the pagan celebration of easter. And contrary to what is written in the primary article, the timing of easter has nothing to do with the timing of Passover. They are completely unrelated. In some years, the two dates can fall several weeks apart. God commanded that the month of the exodus from Egypt was to become the first of months. This was the month of Nisan. To commemorate the Exodus, the Passover was to be observed throughout the generations on the 15th of the first month, Nisan. However, the beginning of Nisan was not an arbitrary date. In order for Nisan to begin, the religious leaders had to search the barley fields and determine if the grain had reached a state of ripening called 'Aviv.' That is why the first month is also called the month of the Abib (barley). If the barley was found to be 'aviv/abib' then Nisan could begin with next new moon sighting. IF, the barley was still too green to be 'aviv', then a 13th month was added to the calendar allowing the crops an additional lunar cycle to fully ripen. The month of Nisan (the month of the Abib), and thus the dating of Passover (Deut 16:1), is subject to the barley grain. Easter is subject to dating according to the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.
During the Diaspora, Hillel II instituted a Hebrew calendar that approximated the lunar cycle and leap years with impressive accuracy. However, this was not the Biblical method of calculating time according to God’s word. Now that the Jewish people are home again, we can return to God’s reckoning of time. There are religious scholars and researchers in Israel that have resumed a calendar based upon the ripening of the barley crops. To illustrate the potential timing difference between easter and Passover, let us consider this year (2007). The barley crops were found to be abib in mid-march allowing the month of Nisan to begin on March 20. This placed Passover, according to the Agriculturally and Biblically Corrected Hebrew Calendar on April 4th. Had the barley not been found aviv when they searched, an extra month (Adar II) would have been added and Passover would not have occurred until early May. This disproves the author's position that Easter is directly related to Passover. It is a terrible disservice to wikipedia and its users to have a blatantly errant entry in its dbase. In my opinion, this author sought not to edify truth, but manipulate data to support his belief that easter is one of the most holy religious holidays and almost synonymous with the Jewish Passover. True scholarly research is undertaken to establish truth. Many times, this research uncovers truth that is quite uncomfortable to our current understanding and knowledge. You cannot curtail learning to fall short of trampling on your personally held "truths." <tww apr-04-2007 19:11EDT>
Some editors have found a variety of verifiable sources that in some places people are now calling "Easter" "Spring Holiday." i created a section of this article called "Spring Holday" and added the contents on who and how people have come to call Easter "Spring Break." AYArktos reverted. Do others agree this material is ireelevant to Easter? Slrubenstein | Talk 12:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Dogface, I urge you to look at the article in question, Spring Holiday. I happen to agree with you and think that article should cover holidays with no reference to Christianity or Easter. However, the principal authors of the article insist that it is just another name for Easter or Good Friday. Would you be willing to comment here [1] and in the subsequent section, here [2]? It seems to me that there are two choices concerning the Spring Holiday article: either it is about a variety of holidays that do not have to do with Easter, in which case it stands as an independent NPOV article, or it is about Easter under a new name, in which case it should be merged with this article. You seem to take the first position, but Crazy'n'Sane and ARKytos do not. Nor do they take the second position (I personally find the first and second positions equally acceptable). Their position is that Spring Holiday is really Easter, but that it must be its own, independent article. I would aprpeciate your thoughts, especially on that article's talk page. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
If "Spring holiday" is a direct euphamism for Easter, then discussion of this euphimism for Easter belongs in the article on Easter. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I haven't had time to read the whole article yet, and I see of course there's been a lot of discussion here. My first instinct is to ask -- at the first sentence-- Who calls Easter "Passover" in English? As a native (US) English speaker, I have never heard any other US, UK, Aussie, or Canadian English speaker use the words "Passover" and "Easter" interchangeably, nor substituted "Passover" for "Easter".
Who ever wrote this article is purposely misleading the public. Pesach and Easter ARE NOT the same!!!!!!! Nor has Easter ever been called Pesach (or Passover in English--or any other language for that matter! The author needs to correct this gross error!!! Pesach/Passover is Scripturally based, while Easter IS NOT!! If the author does not correct this serious error then those in Wikipedia need to!!!!!!
Oops, forgot to sign:
J Lorraine
00:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I would not rush to translate "pascha" as "passover." Words change in meaning, and their meanings expand. In Latin America, Pascuas is used to refer both to Easter and Christmas, for example. Jews will use it to refer to Passover. Does this mean that it "really" means "passover?" I think it now means at least three different things. The question is, when people call Easter "Pascua" are they consciously identifying it with Passover? in my experience, no. We should not be surprised that one word can be translated in different ways. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"In the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia, a tradition of whipping is carried out on Easter Monday" I am not aware of any whipping here (Hungary), only sprinkling. Frigo 16:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Just because people use one word to refer to two different things does not mean those two things are the same. Thus, one should not translate the word the same way in both contexts. Each context merits a different translation. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Do Christians today still consider Ester to be Passover? I am tryuing to distinguish between etymology of a word and contemporary usage. Thanks. Slrubenstein | Talk 06:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. With all due respect, I suggest adding more (from verifiable sources, perhaps theologians or clergy) on how conemporary Christians understand 'Passover.' I am not being argumentative, but since it means something so different from the Jewish Passover, I think the article could benefit from more discussion of this. I am not just talking about the meaning of Easter as such, which the article covers very well, but rather the contemporary meaning of the word passover for Christians. My point is that the article would be much more informative if instead of just providing a translation of the word or its etymology it explained why Christians still think of Easter as a passover and what they mean by that. I think adding this really would improve the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely no need to apologize. You weren´t treating me as if I were obtuse, and of course it was I who misunderstood a theological issue for an issue in translation. But these are the kinds of disagreements or confusions that talk pages are for, when the outcome is better understanding and a constructive suggestion for improving the article. I appreciate your patience and that of others in explaining the matter to me, user:Slrubenstein
I'm curious as to the reference stating that the English and German names of the holiday ("Easter" and "Ostern", respectively) come from "Oestre".
Oestre was an Anglo-Saxon goddess who only shares a passing likeness to modern, commercial, Easter paraphenalia, like the "Easter Bunny". The "Oestre" argument, when you think about it, relies more heavily on circular-reasoning, than on any historical fact.
Is it not more likely that said names come from "Hystera" (Greek for "womb")? This, to me, would make more sense since it was historically a Christian celebration of "being born again", celebrated with decorating of eggs and often closely associated with young children.
Or is there something else which I'm not aware of? Pine 21:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
More history distorting Chritian lies. The name "Easter" originated with the names of an ancient Goddess and God. The Venerable Bede, (672-735 CE.) a Christian scholar, first asserted in his book De Ratione Temporum that Easter was named after Eostre (a.k.a. Eastre). She was the Great Mother Goddess of the Saxon people in Northern Europe. Similarly, the "Teutonic dawn goddess of fertility [was] known variously as Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Eostra, Eostre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron and Ausos." Despite attempts to Christianise it Easter is accepted by most serious scholars to be a pagan fertility rite in origin celebrating the rebirth of life in spring. There is more than a "passing resemblane" to here as she is the goddess of spring and rebirth and Easter is in Spring , her name is a Eastre , and both eggs and hares fertility and rebirth symbols. Please stop lying im sure your lord told you it was a sin.
I understand this isn't the best place to ask, but I'm desperate. Well, I've been needing to figure this out for a long time for an essay that's due next week, and I haev searched most of the internet. I was born on Easter Sunday, March 26th, 1989, and was wondering how I might go about figuring out when the next time Easter will fall on March 26th will be. Any Help would be appreciated. Myzou 00:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The below section doesn't really make sense or read like an article. Also there is no citation that Baptists don't believe Jesus drank wine; I certainly never heard such a believe declared in 20+ years of attending a Southern Baptist church.
"In the United Kingdom, the Easter Act of 1928 set out legislation to allow the date of Easter to be fixed as the first Sunday after the second Saturday in April. However, the legislation was never implemented." ummm? Really? Why isn't this expressed as 'the second Sunday in April'? Also, a source would be good.
I also removed http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=237&SID=3, which is semi-official response from the Orthodox Church of America about the connection to pagan traditions. It's actually a fine source to talk about the Church's position, but it was being used to support something completely different. – Þ 06:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This page has a hideous mish-mash of citations and external links. I am severely tempted to clean them all up as proper end-note citations. Does anyone object to this? Is anyone infatuated with links over proper citations? Dogface 15:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The book in question is essentially the text of my MA thesis entitled, 'Pagan Ritual And Myth, In The Early Christian Church'. It does indeed cover many aspects of the Jesus Myth, Christian festival et al...As an example, the first eight chapters are headed: (1)Rebirth of a Myth, (2)Christianity And The Sun God, (3)The Dying And Resurrected Saviour God,(4)Stars And Their Portents, (5)The Virgin Mother Of The World, (6)The Cave And Stable Myth, (7)Slaughter Of The Innocents, (8)Miracles...................etc. There are 16 chapters, 230pp, inc' Bibliography, and index.The work is therefore accademically sound, and relevant to many diverse aspects of Christianity. Larry Wright 25/03/07
Looks like it's time to temporarily protect another holiday page, until the holiday passes. Anyone else think this? Dogface 19:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I am new register so I can't yet edit on here, but could someone please edit the section titled "Names derived from the Hebrew Pesach (פסח) Passover". Yesterday I added the Malayalam language to the section, but I couldn't find the Malayalam script. Today, the article was locked. Anyhow, I meant to add it in this manner: Malayalam പെശഹ (Pæsacha/Pæsaha) Thanks, MikeThomasChicago 28 Mar 07, 01:22UTC.
"Canada and the United States and parts of UK". I would say that the UK is more secular than the US - which parts of the UK don't have a secular easter? Northern Ireland and some bits of Scotland? I'm going to change this to the UK unless anyone disagrees. Secretlondon 05:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey there, can't edit the page myself. Can someone please change the Netherlands section to include Northern Germany where Easter fires are also quite common. thanks :) Marco (Northern Germany) Bonteburg 20:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Under "Etymology", the meaning of the word "Passover" in John 28:8 is mentioned. If this is referring to ########## of John, there is no John 28:8; ########## of John is only 21 chapters long. I can't edit this; perhaps someone can. However, I haven't found an alternative verse to cite. John 19:8 and 20:8 don't have the word "Passover" in the New International Version. There is a Matthew 28:8, but no reference to the word "Passover" there either (using the same version). Perhaps someone can find the right Gospel of John reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John ISEM ( talk • contribs) 14:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC).
There are varying interoperations of when the gospels state that the Last Supper took place. There is wide-spread agreement that the Synoptic Gospels say is was the Passover meal, so that is easy. The more difficult issue with the Gospel of John. One main interpretation is that says the same thing as the other gospels; another main interpretation is that says the Last Supper was earlier. A good, reliable source that I found that provides insight into the breadth of each opinion is the NIV Study Bible. The authors sift through the various theological writings and digest scholars opinions and includes a sense of how popular a given interpretation is. Using a source like this is a big step up from past versions of this article that didn’t provide any source regarding the popularity of an article. Still, if someone can find an even better sources to help with providing an unbiased overview, there is room for further improvement. -- Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I didn't mention John 19:14 regarding the interpretation that John differs because it's not clear as to the rationale for the interpretation. Does anyone have a source for that? -- Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The "last supper" was not the Passover Seder meal as mentioned in this entry. Why? This is determined quite simply by common sense as applied to the manner in which God commaded that Passover was to be kept. (Read Exodus chapter 12) Jesus was OUR Passover lamb. His shed blood redeemed us from our sinful state of bondage in the same manner that the original Passover lamb redeemed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. He was sacrified on preparation day (Nisan 14), at the same time the High Priest was sacrificing the lambs, as our full and final sacrifice. At sundown, which began Nissan 15, the Passover meal was to be eaten. Now read very carefully, the Lamb is eaten AT the Passover meal, it is the main course. You cannot have the Passover Seder while the lamb is still alive. So again, since Jesus is our Passover Lamb he was dead and buried by the time the nation of Israel, including the disciples, was sitting down to the Passover meal. The last supper was simply that, the last meal he sat down to partake with his disciples. Without doubt, he included elements of the Seder meal which pointed to his fulfillment of the Passover sacrifice. But it was not the seder which he ate on the evening of Nisan 13. This would have been contrary to God's commands. Disobeying God is sin. Jesus was without sin. So he would not have broken his Father's command regarding the keeping of the annual Passover feast. I have had fellow religious scholars debate me and try to prove that it was the Passover feast and Jesus was alive for it. BUT, if you can prove that Jesus was alive on Nisan 15 and ate the Passover meal then you also prove that Heeaster k ahabout the lord thats all byeis a day to have a great time and thinIS NOT our Passover Lamb. And as such, his death means nothing. Why? Because God's law regarding the sacrificial system is very specific. No where in scripture does it allow for an offering to be sacrificed on Passover day itself. A sacrifice so offered would be an abomination to God and his law. So let's review the facts. The "last supper" was just a last meal with the 12 before his crucifixion. This meal took place late Nisan 13/early Nisan 14. He was crucified on Nisan 14 and died around 3pm. He was quickly buried before sunset, at which time Nisan 15 began and commenced the High Sabbath of Passover. <tww, apr-04-2007>
I had to remove the "double curvy bracket" christianity}} tag because it messed up the formatting of the page - made everything centered and other things. I do not know how to edit such a thing. Ellimist 00:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Since Pascha redirects here, I am adding it to the beginning of the article. Majoreditor 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
THis is debatable, it is just as probable that the latin root for Easter derives from "Passio", latin for suffering. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
207.5.234.30 (
talk)
20:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The Easter Triduum article declares that Lent ends on Holy Thursday, but the Lent article states that it ends either at the dusk of Holy Saturday (Easter Vigil) or the morning of Easter Sunday. These seem to conflict, so which one is right?? 74.62.177.140 20:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
-- 84.13.86.63 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Lent ends on
Palm Sunday (
Passion Sunday ) because that day is exactly 40 days after
Ash Wednesday ( The start of Lent ) and there are 40 days in Lent !!!! So you see how it all makes sense ? Does anyone have any different opinions ?
Lent ends on the Thursday preceding Easter. The following days until Easter Vigil are considered the Triduum, or "three days", and "personal penances" - what an individual gives up for lent - ends with the Triduum, NOT Lent. Lent is called 40 days because that is referenced in the Bible, but there are a number of ways to get to this count, including not counting Sundays (which are "mini-Easters") or by arguing the start-date of Lent. This is the stance of the Catholic Church, I don't know the other stances (although they would have more or less arisen from the Catholic tradition, anyway). —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.16.147.33 (
talk)
09:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Every 14 years, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of Hitler occurs on the same day. Next Occurrence will be on April 20th 2014 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funkadelic1 ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
Regarding the name : the article mentions bulgarian easter translation but it is wrong. In Bulgarian easter is Velikden (or "Великден"), which is selebrated on Sunday and the night before is called Bydni Vecher("Бъдни Вечер")which is the expectation of Easter. Also, in those countries the official days off are Friday through Monday, not as in catholic world, where it starts with good friday and end on sunday. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.41.47 ( talk) 12:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
I don't think that calling certain groups "cults" is an NPOV sort of thing. 141.152.79.93 15:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Easter Fires (Påskbrasor) is tradition in Scandinavia (Sweden specifically) and this is not reflected in the text.
Is there any reason for the pre-emptive protection of this article? There's a definite reason to leave it not protected - we want someone googling Easter to be able to edit it and potentially become a user. If every high profile page is s-protected preemptively, then potential new users get the idea that they can't "edit this page right now". -- BigDT 00:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Agree with protection. The high volume of vandalism is not worth the slight possibility that someone might add something useful during the next day or two. Academic Challenger 01:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
This might sound like a stupid question, but I'm unsure of something. the article states:
"Easter, the Sunday of the Resurrection...It celebrates the resurrection of Jesus, which his followers believe occurred on the third day after his death by crucifixion...Good Friday."
If he was killed on Friday, and he was resurrected three days later, wouldn't that be Monday? Friday to Saturday is one day, Saturday to Sunday is two days, and Sunday to Monday is three days. The text says 'the third day after his death', so Saturday is the first day after, Sunday is the second day after, and so Monday is the third day after. Is there an error in the article, or can I not count? 須藤 04:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on the topic, but I think that Friday is counted as the first day, Saturday is the second day and Easter is the third day. Anyway, the idea of Jesus rising on the third day is in the bible. I'm sure there have been lots of debates on this. Another thing to remember is that at that time, days were considered to have begun at sunset. That's all I know about it, I've wondered about that also. Academic Challenger 05:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, many conservative Protestants believe that Good Friday is wrong and that Christ was crucified on Thursday. He was crucified on the "preparation day" before a Sabbath, but, the first day of Passover was a Sabbath, over and above the Saturday Sabbath (Exodus 12:16). John 19:14 says in no uncertain terms, "And it was the preparation of the passover". So the day Jesus was crucified was the day before Passover, not necessarily on a Friday. So if we're going to get 3 days + 3 nights, that makes it a Thursday. -- BigDT 12:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The issue of what actually did or did not happen two milennia ago is not what my response was concerned with; I was simply explaining how it is that the crucifixion is by tradition commemorated on a Friday, Easter on a Sunday, and yet "on the third day" is always the wording. Doops | talk 19:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It's quite simple really: this is an encyclopedia. We describe things. Spiritual and intellectual growth aren't in the job description. Doops | talk 22:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
To be honest, as an Atheist, I don't care about all this theology. I just, for the sake of Wikipedia, want the article, as I'd want with any, to be clear, logical, and make sense. If there needs to be a new section added about a possible contreversy, OK. If the article needs to say 'it is unsure what this means' or 'there are differing views as to the meaning or validity of this...which is discussd elsewhere' that's fine. We just need to be factual, logical, and clear. 須藤 21:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
As I'm sure that someone will revert my recent edit without thinking..... the old statement either alleges that Jesus died on Thursday or was resurrected on Monday. The third day after Friday is Monday: Friday (0), Saturday (+1), Sunday (+2), Monday (+3). I spelled it out agonizingly in the comment, which probably should be editted down, but I'm hoping someone won't revert it if they read it. The phrase: "on the third day he rose again" includes Friday, the day he was crucified, as the first day. So he was ressurected on the second day after, not the third day. KV( Talk) 01:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I know much of the easter egg tradition is included in the easter bunny article however, what about adding the American?(not sure if it originated elsewhere.) tradition of the egg roll in the "Non-religious Easter traditions" section.
the Wikipedia entry is [4]
By egg roll I mean the tradition of racing others while propelling an egg with your nose or a spoon not the Chinese appetizer.
Sdumont 13:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
If information is relavant, factual, and NPOV, than I don't think it should be removed. That said, should the list of other language names be re-directed to Wiktionary? 須藤 22:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Yet so much evidence *unsighted and ignored by most people of most religions whether pagan or christian* points to the fact that the very holiday of Easter was celebrated prior to christianity, a 2000 year old religion, and christianity has fabricated it to its own purposes, as with many other stories told on a similar lines. The following website has such examples, far too comprehensive to be discussed here; www.exposingchristianity.com. As an article on Easter, on a public, editable wiki-encyclopedia, there should be more reference to Easter as a pagan celebration as well, not necessarily more but it IS needed to ensure the neutrality of a reference that so many people use worldwide as a reliable source of LEGITIMATE information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.110.180.146 ( talk) 11:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Should the translations be moved to Easter wiktionary article and removed from this article? -- Bkkbrad 05:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The mention of Bel and Astarte seems to be a mistake for Bel and Ishtar (or Sarpanit)as Bel (Marduk) mythology relates him to these two goddesses.
Surely Easter was initally a pagan ritual and was around at 2400BC?
I don't think this article is neutral and also i notice that so called references in the text are actually taken from the bible. The bible is not a factual book and is actually works from many authors - many of these books are not part of the historic timeline.
I think a banner should be put of this page about neutrality until this issue is resolved.
Comments on this welcome..
To say that easter was "initially a pagan ritual" is misleading. Easter as the celebration of the resurrection of Christ is a distinct Christian concept. This is the most common usage of the term easter, and has nothing to do with paganism. I believe accepted scholarship is that in converting pagans in the early history of the Church, the Church allowed the incorporation of some pagan traditions to make easter celebration and the Christian religion more palatable to those they were attempting to convert. This does not mean that Easter has its "origins" in Pagan tradition. 66.57.229.78 16:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Oestre was a pagan goddess celebrated in the spring to recognise new growth and prolification, that is why spring flowers, rabbits and eggs are used as symbols. The symbolism of the return of life was hijacked by the church for obvious reasons, much the same as Christmas was introduced into the Yuletijd, the coming of the light. Not just Christians but people of all religions should be aware that the "books", "rules" and "traditions" they follow were all produced by mankind albeit in the name of a god. While I agree with the positive social aspect of the church, it can be argued that religions are created to work against God's purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JCartmer ( talk) 19:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's the scenario:
What if March 21 fell on a Sunday? Also, what if a full moon were to occur just after midnight on that Sunday, March 21?? Then, wouldn't Easter fall on March 21, since it is the first Sunday on or after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox??? PhiEaglesfan712 15:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Easter is the first Sunday after (never on) the first full moon (Luna XIV) that is on or after the vernal equinox (March 21).
Actually, it is after March 21, not the vernal equinox. A crucial distinction. Canada Jack ( talk) 01:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
March 21 is not the real vernal equinox, it is the ecclestiastical vernal equinox, as you state. While it seems like a quibble to point this out, making that distinction explains why the date stays the same even when spring started March 20 this year, and why most years the Eastern churches have Easter so much later, as they retain the same nominal date. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I think this conversation may be going a bit astray of championing Easter's origins. The relative merits of "the Church" to one side, the Christian faith, and the Catholic church in particular, has been more than happy to incorporate pagan holidays and rituals into their version of the Christian story as noted above with the Yuletide/Christmas timing. Easter is a holiday of renewal and an affirmation of life after death, read: spring after winter. That these holidays were used to incorporate a bridge between pagan rites and Christian rites is well-established and widely accepted. The purpose was not one of kindness on the part of the church. The purpose was to avoid revolt by the masses of pagans that were highly suspicious of the church's stories and credibility. I think it highly appropriate for this wikipedia article to be inclusive of the CULTURAL HISTORY of the holidays Easter was meant to overwrite. Easter was not a brand new holiday to celebrate Jesus of Nazareth's ressurction. Easter is a holiday that not only borrowed from, but built upon thousands of years of non-Christian culture and tradition. The truth shall set you free (didn't Jesus say that?) (Kieran Taylor kieran.mclaury@gmail.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.51.214 ( talk) 13:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
In Eastern Christianity, Easter falls between 4 April and 8 May between 1900 and 1970 based on the Gregorian date. Does it mean there was no Easter before 1900 or after 1970??? This needs rewriting. -- Jotel 07:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
It was implied in the previous version that the Eastern Orthodox were "mistaken" in their calculation of the date of Eastern. I removed this bias and attempted more neutral language. 11:40 AM, 19 October 2007
Why can't Easter fall on April 26? -- 88.78.228.207 ( talk) 21:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
"The English name, "Easter", and the German, "Ostern", derive from the name of a putative Anglo-Saxon Goddess of the Dawn (thus, of spring, as the dawn of the year) — called Ēaster, Ēastre, and Ēostre in various dialects of Old English and Ostara in German.[4]"
OK so the next paragraphs below the article debunk this. That not very neutural imo. Its giving incorrect accounts to boot. Xuchilbara ( talk) 02:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The cycle of Easter dates repeats after exactly 5,700,000 years. At any stage during that cycle, does Easter ever fall on the same date 2 years in a row? I think the answer is probably no, but I'd like confirmation. Thanks. -- JackofOz ( talk) 11:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Is the same date ever a Sunday two years in a row? - mathematically impossible with 7-day weeks * 365-day & 366-day years --- JimWae ( talk) 22:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a complete list of the intervals between Easters of the same M-D date, starting 5 6 11 17 35 40 46 51 57 62 63 68 73 79 84 95, in http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/estrdate.htm#EDR. Such a list can easily be produced, quickly enough, by brute force on a computer. Since Sunday moves by one date per ordinary year and by two dates per leap year, it is clear that the shortest interval must be at least 5 years. 82.163.24.100 ( talk) 13:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The reason for this is that the full moon involved (called the Paschal full moon) is not an astronomical full moon, but an ecclesiastical moon. The difference is that the astronomical vernal equinox is a natural astronomical phenomenon, while the ecclesiastical vernal equinox is a fixed March 21.
I reread this several times and it doesn't make sense to me. While the first sentence is true, the second doesn't explain the difference, as it speaks to the date of the equinox rather than the moon. A full moon is a full moon regardless of the date we set for the equinox. Equinoxes and full moons astronomically are two independent phenomena. (I'm not disputing the fact that there are differences between both ecclesiastical/astronomical moons and equinoxes, just saying they are two separate issues while the juxtaposition of the two sentences indicates otherwise). Gr8white ( talk) 02:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It still bothered me how the sentences flowed, seeming to imply the difference between astronomical & ecclastical moons stemming from the difference in determining the equinox. I reworded so the two sentences read "One reason for this..." and then "Another difference...". Hope that's OK. Gr8white ( talk) 01:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC) All of this is true.
An anon IP added some text suggesting "Pascha" is a "gross misinterpretation" of something. I reverted because it didn't add any useful information and was unreferenced (and doesn't belong in the caption of an image anyway). If there is some basis to this it might be added to etymology section if properly referenced. Gr8white ( talk) 18:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed the section commenting on the early Church. I would like to clarify that there is indeed evidence that the Apostles (or at least one) did in fact honor pascha.
"When the blessed Polycarp was visiting in Rome in the time of Anicetus [c. 155],... they were at once well inclined towards each other, not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this matter [the observance of Easter]. For Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [of his Easter customs] inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant." Irenaeus (c 180), volume 1, page 569 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers (Hendrickson Publishers' edition).
There is also a lot more to be found concerning what these early Church Fathers said and wrote (particularly that it was indeed generally insisted that they celebrated it on Sunday) that I would love to include if I can get the time and access to this page. Any further questions or comments can be directed to me at sphorner at the g-m-a-i-l domain dot com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The masters servant ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Is Sunday brunch a religious or non-religious aspect of Easter celibrations? Should it be mentioned? -- Firefly322 ( talk) 06:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The last amendment has added The name refers to the Eostur-monath, a month of the Celtic Year... sorry but Easter isn't really celtic, and the word Eostar-monath is anything but celtic. Did someone mean 'Germanic year? Akerbeltz ( talk) 15:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
33 is given as the year of the death of Jesus in the article. I understood that "most" people understood that Dionysius Exiguus computed the year wrong when he came up with the current system of numbering. (Dionysius article is ambiguous as well). Anyway, outside of Wikipedia (!) I thought most people believed that Jesus was really born in 4 BC (no year 0) and therefore died in 30 AD, in his 33rd year. This can even be pinned down to a day of the year 33, April 7 to correspond with Passover that year. Here is one such chronology which is probably not usable as a reference unfortunately. Student7 ( talk) 22:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm working on a footer for Easter related pages. Feel free to jump in and help make it better. Remember ( talk) 19:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone has just coined the word "Anglosphere" for certain Anglophone countries. Isn't this WP:OR? Is India and Nigeria included? I assume not though there are more English books published in India than anywhere else. Sounds ambiguous to me. Student7 ( talk) 11:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The statement that Easter is "also called Pascha" is odd. That is the Latin term (hence "paschal", French "Pâques" etc.), but never used in English.
Although "Easter" is the norm when it comes to the title of this holiday (in English that is), many English speaking Christians do use the term Pascha. Eastern Orthodoxy is a prime example of this. Though Orthodoxy does not have a major foothold in English Speaking countries comparative to other denominations, it still has a long history in Christianity and is still among the primary denominations worldwide. For these reasons (that of the word "Pascha" is used in english, and the term "Pascha" is commonly accepted amongst many around the world if those weren't made clear earlier) I'm adding "also known as Pascha" in the beginning of this article to add for a more neutral stance between the different ways of the Eastern and Western churches. Johnpjr ( talk) 02:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The etymology section should note that the ultimate root of the word is the same as that for "east" and "yeast" - all connoting "rising."
The etymology section "germanic languages" ought to mention, that there are only two languages, English and German, where the origin of the feast's name might derive from something like "eostur". All other germanic languages from Dutch to Icelandic use a form of "pascha" like all the non-germanic languages do. So if there ever was a goddess "Eostre" or so, it seems to have been at least no goddess common to all germanic tribes. Says someone who would like to apologize for his poor English. By the way: Happy Easter to everyone out there! 80.144.191.189 ( talk) 10:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The last paragraph in the current introduction seems overly complicated, at least for an introduction. Would you agree with that? If so, any thoughts on how to keep only the essential information in that paragraph and moving the details elsewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.254.165 ( talk) 14:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
That John contradicts the synoptics is the neutral point of view. The Gospel texts themselves support this. It is trying to reconcile them that generates all kinds of sophistry and tendentious pleading.-- Mockingbird0 ( talk) 17:01, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Jews don't celebrate Easter, they celebrate Passover, beginning on Nisan 15. Also, the Council of Nicaea did not anathemize the Quartodecimans, Constantine simply decreed that all Christians should celebrate Easter on the same day, to be announced by the Bishop of Alexandria, without determining specifically what that day was, which is still true today, see Easter controversy. 64.149.83.12 ( talk) 05:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The annotations in the Zondervan NIV Study Bible take as their presupposition that there is no discrepancy between the Johannine and Synoptic passion chronologies. Such a tendentious reading is not NPOV. In any case, the wording I prefer cites this source accurately.
I see no justification for referring to the Gospel chronology question in the section about the quartodeciman controversy. Neither Hippolytus, nor Eusebius, nor the author of the Adversus omnes haereses attributed to Tertullian, nor Epiphanius mentions the chronology question in connection with their discussions of quartodecimanism. Epiphanius states as fact, in his discussion of the quartodecimans, that "Christ had to be slain on the fourteenth of the month in accordance with the Law," but he does not refer to any discrepancy with the synoptic Gospels, or connect the quartodecimans with the Gospel of John in any way. Following Hippolytus, he states that they take as their proof-text "Cursed be he who shall not keep the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month", while the "solar quartodecimans", who celebrate Easter on March 25th, take as their authority the Acts of Pilate. Panarion, Heresy 50. When Epiphanius goes through the Johannine chronology in detail, it is not in connection with the quartodecimans, but in his description of sectarians who refuse to accept the Gospel of John or the Revelation. Panarion, Heresy 51.
A much later Easter controversy involved the definition of the Week of Unleavened Bread, with some arguing for luna 14 to luna 20, and others for luna 15 to luna 21 (the view that prevailed and is still used). This is the controversy referred to by Columbanus and Bede, for example. It may be that the Gospel chronology question was cited in the course of this controversy (though no name springs to mind). But it was a later controversy, not the quartodeciman controversy.
The statement about Roman emperors interfering with the Jewish calendar, if it is not to be scrapped altogether, belongs in the section of 3rd/4th century controversy and council, not in the section on the quartodeciman controversy. Furthermore, Ben-Sasson is the editor, not the author, of the History cited, though he contributed the section on the middle ages. The author of the section in question (which clearly states that it is referring to the reign of Constantius in the 4th century) is S. Safrai, who cites no sources for the statement.-- Mockingbird0 ( talk) 00:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Csernicka added Easter on the list of May holidays. I reverted that because Christianity has made a point to celebrate it on 25 April at the latest. C. reverted this again with the argument that the Orthodox sometimes celebrate it in May. That would be May in the Gregorian calendar. But in that case the Orthodox use the Julian calendar and still 25 April is the latest date. So I maintain that Easter is not a May holiday. You can not mix calendar systems. I still want this classification removed. Tom Peters 11:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Those entering comments on this page are correct; Pesach (Passover) has nothing to do with the pagan celebration of easter. And contrary to what is written in the primary article, the timing of easter has nothing to do with the timing of Passover. They are completely unrelated. In some years, the two dates can fall several weeks apart. God commanded that the month of the exodus from Egypt was to become the first of months. This was the month of Nisan. To commemorate the Exodus, the Passover was to be observed throughout the generations on the 15th of the first month, Nisan. However, the beginning of Nisan was not an arbitrary date. In order for Nisan to begin, the religious leaders had to search the barley fields and determine if the grain had reached a state of ripening called 'Aviv.' That is why the first month is also called the month of the Abib (barley). If the barley was found to be 'aviv/abib' then Nisan could begin with next new moon sighting. IF, the barley was still too green to be 'aviv', then a 13th month was added to the calendar allowing the crops an additional lunar cycle to fully ripen. The month of Nisan (the month of the Abib), and thus the dating of Passover (Deut 16:1), is subject to the barley grain. Easter is subject to dating according to the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.
During the Diaspora, Hillel II instituted a Hebrew calendar that approximated the lunar cycle and leap years with impressive accuracy. However, this was not the Biblical method of calculating time according to God’s word. Now that the Jewish people are home again, we can return to God’s reckoning of time. There are religious scholars and researchers in Israel that have resumed a calendar based upon the ripening of the barley crops. To illustrate the potential timing difference between easter and Passover, let us consider this year (2007). The barley crops were found to be abib in mid-march allowing the month of Nisan to begin on March 20. This placed Passover, according to the Agriculturally and Biblically Corrected Hebrew Calendar on April 4th. Had the barley not been found aviv when they searched, an extra month (Adar II) would have been added and Passover would not have occurred until early May. This disproves the author's position that Easter is directly related to Passover. It is a terrible disservice to wikipedia and its users to have a blatantly errant entry in its dbase. In my opinion, this author sought not to edify truth, but manipulate data to support his belief that easter is one of the most holy religious holidays and almost synonymous with the Jewish Passover. True scholarly research is undertaken to establish truth. Many times, this research uncovers truth that is quite uncomfortable to our current understanding and knowledge. You cannot curtail learning to fall short of trampling on your personally held "truths." <tww apr-04-2007 19:11EDT>
Some editors have found a variety of verifiable sources that in some places people are now calling "Easter" "Spring Holiday." i created a section of this article called "Spring Holday" and added the contents on who and how people have come to call Easter "Spring Break." AYArktos reverted. Do others agree this material is ireelevant to Easter? Slrubenstein | Talk 12:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Dogface, I urge you to look at the article in question, Spring Holiday. I happen to agree with you and think that article should cover holidays with no reference to Christianity or Easter. However, the principal authors of the article insist that it is just another name for Easter or Good Friday. Would you be willing to comment here [1] and in the subsequent section, here [2]? It seems to me that there are two choices concerning the Spring Holiday article: either it is about a variety of holidays that do not have to do with Easter, in which case it stands as an independent NPOV article, or it is about Easter under a new name, in which case it should be merged with this article. You seem to take the first position, but Crazy'n'Sane and ARKytos do not. Nor do they take the second position (I personally find the first and second positions equally acceptable). Their position is that Spring Holiday is really Easter, but that it must be its own, independent article. I would aprpeciate your thoughts, especially on that article's talk page. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
If "Spring holiday" is a direct euphamism for Easter, then discussion of this euphimism for Easter belongs in the article on Easter. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I haven't had time to read the whole article yet, and I see of course there's been a lot of discussion here. My first instinct is to ask -- at the first sentence-- Who calls Easter "Passover" in English? As a native (US) English speaker, I have never heard any other US, UK, Aussie, or Canadian English speaker use the words "Passover" and "Easter" interchangeably, nor substituted "Passover" for "Easter".
Who ever wrote this article is purposely misleading the public. Pesach and Easter ARE NOT the same!!!!!!! Nor has Easter ever been called Pesach (or Passover in English--or any other language for that matter! The author needs to correct this gross error!!! Pesach/Passover is Scripturally based, while Easter IS NOT!! If the author does not correct this serious error then those in Wikipedia need to!!!!!!
Oops, forgot to sign:
J Lorraine
00:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I would not rush to translate "pascha" as "passover." Words change in meaning, and their meanings expand. In Latin America, Pascuas is used to refer both to Easter and Christmas, for example. Jews will use it to refer to Passover. Does this mean that it "really" means "passover?" I think it now means at least three different things. The question is, when people call Easter "Pascua" are they consciously identifying it with Passover? in my experience, no. We should not be surprised that one word can be translated in different ways. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"In the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia, a tradition of whipping is carried out on Easter Monday" I am not aware of any whipping here (Hungary), only sprinkling. Frigo 16:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Just because people use one word to refer to two different things does not mean those two things are the same. Thus, one should not translate the word the same way in both contexts. Each context merits a different translation. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Do Christians today still consider Ester to be Passover? I am tryuing to distinguish between etymology of a word and contemporary usage. Thanks. Slrubenstein | Talk 06:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. With all due respect, I suggest adding more (from verifiable sources, perhaps theologians or clergy) on how conemporary Christians understand 'Passover.' I am not being argumentative, but since it means something so different from the Jewish Passover, I think the article could benefit from more discussion of this. I am not just talking about the meaning of Easter as such, which the article covers very well, but rather the contemporary meaning of the word passover for Christians. My point is that the article would be much more informative if instead of just providing a translation of the word or its etymology it explained why Christians still think of Easter as a passover and what they mean by that. I think adding this really would improve the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely no need to apologize. You weren´t treating me as if I were obtuse, and of course it was I who misunderstood a theological issue for an issue in translation. But these are the kinds of disagreements or confusions that talk pages are for, when the outcome is better understanding and a constructive suggestion for improving the article. I appreciate your patience and that of others in explaining the matter to me, user:Slrubenstein
I'm curious as to the reference stating that the English and German names of the holiday ("Easter" and "Ostern", respectively) come from "Oestre".
Oestre was an Anglo-Saxon goddess who only shares a passing likeness to modern, commercial, Easter paraphenalia, like the "Easter Bunny". The "Oestre" argument, when you think about it, relies more heavily on circular-reasoning, than on any historical fact.
Is it not more likely that said names come from "Hystera" (Greek for "womb")? This, to me, would make more sense since it was historically a Christian celebration of "being born again", celebrated with decorating of eggs and often closely associated with young children.
Or is there something else which I'm not aware of? Pine 21:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
More history distorting Chritian lies. The name "Easter" originated with the names of an ancient Goddess and God. The Venerable Bede, (672-735 CE.) a Christian scholar, first asserted in his book De Ratione Temporum that Easter was named after Eostre (a.k.a. Eastre). She was the Great Mother Goddess of the Saxon people in Northern Europe. Similarly, the "Teutonic dawn goddess of fertility [was] known variously as Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Eostra, Eostre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron and Ausos." Despite attempts to Christianise it Easter is accepted by most serious scholars to be a pagan fertility rite in origin celebrating the rebirth of life in spring. There is more than a "passing resemblane" to here as she is the goddess of spring and rebirth and Easter is in Spring , her name is a Eastre , and both eggs and hares fertility and rebirth symbols. Please stop lying im sure your lord told you it was a sin.
I understand this isn't the best place to ask, but I'm desperate. Well, I've been needing to figure this out for a long time for an essay that's due next week, and I haev searched most of the internet. I was born on Easter Sunday, March 26th, 1989, and was wondering how I might go about figuring out when the next time Easter will fall on March 26th will be. Any Help would be appreciated. Myzou 00:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The below section doesn't really make sense or read like an article. Also there is no citation that Baptists don't believe Jesus drank wine; I certainly never heard such a believe declared in 20+ years of attending a Southern Baptist church.
"In the United Kingdom, the Easter Act of 1928 set out legislation to allow the date of Easter to be fixed as the first Sunday after the second Saturday in April. However, the legislation was never implemented." ummm? Really? Why isn't this expressed as 'the second Sunday in April'? Also, a source would be good.
I also removed http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=237&SID=3, which is semi-official response from the Orthodox Church of America about the connection to pagan traditions. It's actually a fine source to talk about the Church's position, but it was being used to support something completely different. – Þ 06:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This page has a hideous mish-mash of citations and external links. I am severely tempted to clean them all up as proper end-note citations. Does anyone object to this? Is anyone infatuated with links over proper citations? Dogface 15:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The book in question is essentially the text of my MA thesis entitled, 'Pagan Ritual And Myth, In The Early Christian Church'. It does indeed cover many aspects of the Jesus Myth, Christian festival et al...As an example, the first eight chapters are headed: (1)Rebirth of a Myth, (2)Christianity And The Sun God, (3)The Dying And Resurrected Saviour God,(4)Stars And Their Portents, (5)The Virgin Mother Of The World, (6)The Cave And Stable Myth, (7)Slaughter Of The Innocents, (8)Miracles...................etc. There are 16 chapters, 230pp, inc' Bibliography, and index.The work is therefore accademically sound, and relevant to many diverse aspects of Christianity. Larry Wright 25/03/07
Looks like it's time to temporarily protect another holiday page, until the holiday passes. Anyone else think this? Dogface 19:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I am new register so I can't yet edit on here, but could someone please edit the section titled "Names derived from the Hebrew Pesach (פסח) Passover". Yesterday I added the Malayalam language to the section, but I couldn't find the Malayalam script. Today, the article was locked. Anyhow, I meant to add it in this manner: Malayalam പെശഹ (Pæsacha/Pæsaha) Thanks, MikeThomasChicago 28 Mar 07, 01:22UTC.
"Canada and the United States and parts of UK". I would say that the UK is more secular than the US - which parts of the UK don't have a secular easter? Northern Ireland and some bits of Scotland? I'm going to change this to the UK unless anyone disagrees. Secretlondon 05:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey there, can't edit the page myself. Can someone please change the Netherlands section to include Northern Germany where Easter fires are also quite common. thanks :) Marco (Northern Germany) Bonteburg 20:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Under "Etymology", the meaning of the word "Passover" in John 28:8 is mentioned. If this is referring to ########## of John, there is no John 28:8; ########## of John is only 21 chapters long. I can't edit this; perhaps someone can. However, I haven't found an alternative verse to cite. John 19:8 and 20:8 don't have the word "Passover" in the New International Version. There is a Matthew 28:8, but no reference to the word "Passover" there either (using the same version). Perhaps someone can find the right Gospel of John reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John ISEM ( talk • contribs) 14:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC).
There are varying interoperations of when the gospels state that the Last Supper took place. There is wide-spread agreement that the Synoptic Gospels say is was the Passover meal, so that is easy. The more difficult issue with the Gospel of John. One main interpretation is that says the same thing as the other gospels; another main interpretation is that says the Last Supper was earlier. A good, reliable source that I found that provides insight into the breadth of each opinion is the NIV Study Bible. The authors sift through the various theological writings and digest scholars opinions and includes a sense of how popular a given interpretation is. Using a source like this is a big step up from past versions of this article that didn’t provide any source regarding the popularity of an article. Still, if someone can find an even better sources to help with providing an unbiased overview, there is room for further improvement. -- Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I didn't mention John 19:14 regarding the interpretation that John differs because it's not clear as to the rationale for the interpretation. Does anyone have a source for that? -- Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The "last supper" was not the Passover Seder meal as mentioned in this entry. Why? This is determined quite simply by common sense as applied to the manner in which God commaded that Passover was to be kept. (Read Exodus chapter 12) Jesus was OUR Passover lamb. His shed blood redeemed us from our sinful state of bondage in the same manner that the original Passover lamb redeemed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. He was sacrified on preparation day (Nisan 14), at the same time the High Priest was sacrificing the lambs, as our full and final sacrifice. At sundown, which began Nissan 15, the Passover meal was to be eaten. Now read very carefully, the Lamb is eaten AT the Passover meal, it is the main course. You cannot have the Passover Seder while the lamb is still alive. So again, since Jesus is our Passover Lamb he was dead and buried by the time the nation of Israel, including the disciples, was sitting down to the Passover meal. The last supper was simply that, the last meal he sat down to partake with his disciples. Without doubt, he included elements of the Seder meal which pointed to his fulfillment of the Passover sacrifice. But it was not the seder which he ate on the evening of Nisan 13. This would have been contrary to God's commands. Disobeying God is sin. Jesus was without sin. So he would not have broken his Father's command regarding the keeping of the annual Passover feast. I have had fellow religious scholars debate me and try to prove that it was the Passover feast and Jesus was alive for it. BUT, if you can prove that Jesus was alive on Nisan 15 and ate the Passover meal then you also prove that Heeaster k ahabout the lord thats all byeis a day to have a great time and thinIS NOT our Passover Lamb. And as such, his death means nothing. Why? Because God's law regarding the sacrificial system is very specific. No where in scripture does it allow for an offering to be sacrificed on Passover day itself. A sacrifice so offered would be an abomination to God and his law. So let's review the facts. The "last supper" was just a last meal with the 12 before his crucifixion. This meal took place late Nisan 13/early Nisan 14. He was crucified on Nisan 14 and died around 3pm. He was quickly buried before sunset, at which time Nisan 15 began and commenced the High Sabbath of Passover. <tww, apr-04-2007>
I had to remove the "double curvy bracket" christianity}} tag because it messed up the formatting of the page - made everything centered and other things. I do not know how to edit such a thing. Ellimist 00:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Since Pascha redirects here, I am adding it to the beginning of the article. Majoreditor 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
THis is debatable, it is just as probable that the latin root for Easter derives from "Passio", latin for suffering. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
207.5.234.30 (
talk)
20:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The Easter Triduum article declares that Lent ends on Holy Thursday, but the Lent article states that it ends either at the dusk of Holy Saturday (Easter Vigil) or the morning of Easter Sunday. These seem to conflict, so which one is right?? 74.62.177.140 20:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
-- 84.13.86.63 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Lent ends on
Palm Sunday (
Passion Sunday ) because that day is exactly 40 days after
Ash Wednesday ( The start of Lent ) and there are 40 days in Lent !!!! So you see how it all makes sense ? Does anyone have any different opinions ?
Lent ends on the Thursday preceding Easter. The following days until Easter Vigil are considered the Triduum, or "three days", and "personal penances" - what an individual gives up for lent - ends with the Triduum, NOT Lent. Lent is called 40 days because that is referenced in the Bible, but there are a number of ways to get to this count, including not counting Sundays (which are "mini-Easters") or by arguing the start-date of Lent. This is the stance of the Catholic Church, I don't know the other stances (although they would have more or less arisen from the Catholic tradition, anyway). —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.16.147.33 (
talk)
09:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Every 14 years, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of Hitler occurs on the same day. Next Occurrence will be on April 20th 2014 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funkadelic1 ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
Regarding the name : the article mentions bulgarian easter translation but it is wrong. In Bulgarian easter is Velikden (or "Великден"), which is selebrated on Sunday and the night before is called Bydni Vecher("Бъдни Вечер")which is the expectation of Easter. Also, in those countries the official days off are Friday through Monday, not as in catholic world, where it starts with good friday and end on sunday. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.41.47 ( talk) 12:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
I don't think that calling certain groups "cults" is an NPOV sort of thing. 141.152.79.93 15:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Easter Fires (Påskbrasor) is tradition in Scandinavia (Sweden specifically) and this is not reflected in the text.
Is there any reason for the pre-emptive protection of this article? There's a definite reason to leave it not protected - we want someone googling Easter to be able to edit it and potentially become a user. If every high profile page is s-protected preemptively, then potential new users get the idea that they can't "edit this page right now". -- BigDT 00:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Agree with protection. The high volume of vandalism is not worth the slight possibility that someone might add something useful during the next day or two. Academic Challenger 01:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
This might sound like a stupid question, but I'm unsure of something. the article states:
"Easter, the Sunday of the Resurrection...It celebrates the resurrection of Jesus, which his followers believe occurred on the third day after his death by crucifixion...Good Friday."
If he was killed on Friday, and he was resurrected three days later, wouldn't that be Monday? Friday to Saturday is one day, Saturday to Sunday is two days, and Sunday to Monday is three days. The text says 'the third day after his death', so Saturday is the first day after, Sunday is the second day after, and so Monday is the third day after. Is there an error in the article, or can I not count? 須藤 04:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on the topic, but I think that Friday is counted as the first day, Saturday is the second day and Easter is the third day. Anyway, the idea of Jesus rising on the third day is in the bible. I'm sure there have been lots of debates on this. Another thing to remember is that at that time, days were considered to have begun at sunset. That's all I know about it, I've wondered about that also. Academic Challenger 05:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, many conservative Protestants believe that Good Friday is wrong and that Christ was crucified on Thursday. He was crucified on the "preparation day" before a Sabbath, but, the first day of Passover was a Sabbath, over and above the Saturday Sabbath (Exodus 12:16). John 19:14 says in no uncertain terms, "And it was the preparation of the passover". So the day Jesus was crucified was the day before Passover, not necessarily on a Friday. So if we're going to get 3 days + 3 nights, that makes it a Thursday. -- BigDT 12:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The issue of what actually did or did not happen two milennia ago is not what my response was concerned with; I was simply explaining how it is that the crucifixion is by tradition commemorated on a Friday, Easter on a Sunday, and yet "on the third day" is always the wording. Doops | talk 19:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It's quite simple really: this is an encyclopedia. We describe things. Spiritual and intellectual growth aren't in the job description. Doops | talk 22:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
To be honest, as an Atheist, I don't care about all this theology. I just, for the sake of Wikipedia, want the article, as I'd want with any, to be clear, logical, and make sense. If there needs to be a new section added about a possible contreversy, OK. If the article needs to say 'it is unsure what this means' or 'there are differing views as to the meaning or validity of this...which is discussd elsewhere' that's fine. We just need to be factual, logical, and clear. 須藤 21:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
As I'm sure that someone will revert my recent edit without thinking..... the old statement either alleges that Jesus died on Thursday or was resurrected on Monday. The third day after Friday is Monday: Friday (0), Saturday (+1), Sunday (+2), Monday (+3). I spelled it out agonizingly in the comment, which probably should be editted down, but I'm hoping someone won't revert it if they read it. The phrase: "on the third day he rose again" includes Friday, the day he was crucified, as the first day. So he was ressurected on the second day after, not the third day. KV( Talk) 01:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I know much of the easter egg tradition is included in the easter bunny article however, what about adding the American?(not sure if it originated elsewhere.) tradition of the egg roll in the "Non-religious Easter traditions" section.
the Wikipedia entry is [4]
By egg roll I mean the tradition of racing others while propelling an egg with your nose or a spoon not the Chinese appetizer.
Sdumont 13:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
If information is relavant, factual, and NPOV, than I don't think it should be removed. That said, should the list of other language names be re-directed to Wiktionary? 須藤 22:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Yet so much evidence *unsighted and ignored by most people of most religions whether pagan or christian* points to the fact that the very holiday of Easter was celebrated prior to christianity, a 2000 year old religion, and christianity has fabricated it to its own purposes, as with many other stories told on a similar lines. The following website has such examples, far too comprehensive to be discussed here; www.exposingchristianity.com. As an article on Easter, on a public, editable wiki-encyclopedia, there should be more reference to Easter as a pagan celebration as well, not necessarily more but it IS needed to ensure the neutrality of a reference that so many people use worldwide as a reliable source of LEGITIMATE information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.110.180.146 ( talk) 11:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Should the translations be moved to Easter wiktionary article and removed from this article? -- Bkkbrad 05:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The mention of Bel and Astarte seems to be a mistake for Bel and Ishtar (or Sarpanit)as Bel (Marduk) mythology relates him to these two goddesses.
Surely Easter was initally a pagan ritual and was around at 2400BC?
I don't think this article is neutral and also i notice that so called references in the text are actually taken from the bible. The bible is not a factual book and is actually works from many authors - many of these books are not part of the historic timeline.
I think a banner should be put of this page about neutrality until this issue is resolved.
Comments on this welcome..
To say that easter was "initially a pagan ritual" is misleading. Easter as the celebration of the resurrection of Christ is a distinct Christian concept. This is the most common usage of the term easter, and has nothing to do with paganism. I believe accepted scholarship is that in converting pagans in the early history of the Church, the Church allowed the incorporation of some pagan traditions to make easter celebration and the Christian religion more palatable to those they were attempting to convert. This does not mean that Easter has its "origins" in Pagan tradition. 66.57.229.78 16:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Oestre was a pagan goddess celebrated in the spring to recognise new growth and prolification, that is why spring flowers, rabbits and eggs are used as symbols. The symbolism of the return of life was hijacked by the church for obvious reasons, much the same as Christmas was introduced into the Yuletijd, the coming of the light. Not just Christians but people of all religions should be aware that the "books", "rules" and "traditions" they follow were all produced by mankind albeit in the name of a god. While I agree with the positive social aspect of the church, it can be argued that religions are created to work against God's purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JCartmer ( talk) 19:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's the scenario:
What if March 21 fell on a Sunday? Also, what if a full moon were to occur just after midnight on that Sunday, March 21?? Then, wouldn't Easter fall on March 21, since it is the first Sunday on or after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox??? PhiEaglesfan712 15:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Easter is the first Sunday after (never on) the first full moon (Luna XIV) that is on or after the vernal equinox (March 21).
Actually, it is after March 21, not the vernal equinox. A crucial distinction. Canada Jack ( talk) 01:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
March 21 is not the real vernal equinox, it is the ecclestiastical vernal equinox, as you state. While it seems like a quibble to point this out, making that distinction explains why the date stays the same even when spring started March 20 this year, and why most years the Eastern churches have Easter so much later, as they retain the same nominal date. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I think this conversation may be going a bit astray of championing Easter's origins. The relative merits of "the Church" to one side, the Christian faith, and the Catholic church in particular, has been more than happy to incorporate pagan holidays and rituals into their version of the Christian story as noted above with the Yuletide/Christmas timing. Easter is a holiday of renewal and an affirmation of life after death, read: spring after winter. That these holidays were used to incorporate a bridge between pagan rites and Christian rites is well-established and widely accepted. The purpose was not one of kindness on the part of the church. The purpose was to avoid revolt by the masses of pagans that were highly suspicious of the church's stories and credibility. I think it highly appropriate for this wikipedia article to be inclusive of the CULTURAL HISTORY of the holidays Easter was meant to overwrite. Easter was not a brand new holiday to celebrate Jesus of Nazareth's ressurction. Easter is a holiday that not only borrowed from, but built upon thousands of years of non-Christian culture and tradition. The truth shall set you free (didn't Jesus say that?) (Kieran Taylor kieran.mclaury@gmail.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.51.214 ( talk) 13:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
In Eastern Christianity, Easter falls between 4 April and 8 May between 1900 and 1970 based on the Gregorian date. Does it mean there was no Easter before 1900 or after 1970??? This needs rewriting. -- Jotel 07:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
It was implied in the previous version that the Eastern Orthodox were "mistaken" in their calculation of the date of Eastern. I removed this bias and attempted more neutral language. 11:40 AM, 19 October 2007
Why can't Easter fall on April 26? -- 88.78.228.207 ( talk) 21:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
"The English name, "Easter", and the German, "Ostern", derive from the name of a putative Anglo-Saxon Goddess of the Dawn (thus, of spring, as the dawn of the year) — called Ēaster, Ēastre, and Ēostre in various dialects of Old English and Ostara in German.[4]"
OK so the next paragraphs below the article debunk this. That not very neutural imo. Its giving incorrect accounts to boot. Xuchilbara ( talk) 02:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The cycle of Easter dates repeats after exactly 5,700,000 years. At any stage during that cycle, does Easter ever fall on the same date 2 years in a row? I think the answer is probably no, but I'd like confirmation. Thanks. -- JackofOz ( talk) 11:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Is the same date ever a Sunday two years in a row? - mathematically impossible with 7-day weeks * 365-day & 366-day years --- JimWae ( talk) 22:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a complete list of the intervals between Easters of the same M-D date, starting 5 6 11 17 35 40 46 51 57 62 63 68 73 79 84 95, in http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/estrdate.htm#EDR. Such a list can easily be produced, quickly enough, by brute force on a computer. Since Sunday moves by one date per ordinary year and by two dates per leap year, it is clear that the shortest interval must be at least 5 years. 82.163.24.100 ( talk) 13:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The reason for this is that the full moon involved (called the Paschal full moon) is not an astronomical full moon, but an ecclesiastical moon. The difference is that the astronomical vernal equinox is a natural astronomical phenomenon, while the ecclesiastical vernal equinox is a fixed March 21.
I reread this several times and it doesn't make sense to me. While the first sentence is true, the second doesn't explain the difference, as it speaks to the date of the equinox rather than the moon. A full moon is a full moon regardless of the date we set for the equinox. Equinoxes and full moons astronomically are two independent phenomena. (I'm not disputing the fact that there are differences between both ecclesiastical/astronomical moons and equinoxes, just saying they are two separate issues while the juxtaposition of the two sentences indicates otherwise). Gr8white ( talk) 02:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It still bothered me how the sentences flowed, seeming to imply the difference between astronomical & ecclastical moons stemming from the difference in determining the equinox. I reworded so the two sentences read "One reason for this..." and then "Another difference...". Hope that's OK. Gr8white ( talk) 01:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC) All of this is true.
An anon IP added some text suggesting "Pascha" is a "gross misinterpretation" of something. I reverted because it didn't add any useful information and was unreferenced (and doesn't belong in the caption of an image anyway). If there is some basis to this it might be added to etymology section if properly referenced. Gr8white ( talk) 18:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed the section commenting on the early Church. I would like to clarify that there is indeed evidence that the Apostles (or at least one) did in fact honor pascha.
"When the blessed Polycarp was visiting in Rome in the time of Anicetus [c. 155],... they were at once well inclined towards each other, not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this matter [the observance of Easter]. For Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [of his Easter customs] inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant." Irenaeus (c 180), volume 1, page 569 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers (Hendrickson Publishers' edition).
There is also a lot more to be found concerning what these early Church Fathers said and wrote (particularly that it was indeed generally insisted that they celebrated it on Sunday) that I would love to include if I can get the time and access to this page. Any further questions or comments can be directed to me at sphorner at the g-m-a-i-l domain dot com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The masters servant ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Is Sunday brunch a religious or non-religious aspect of Easter celibrations? Should it be mentioned? -- Firefly322 ( talk) 06:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The last amendment has added The name refers to the Eostur-monath, a month of the Celtic Year... sorry but Easter isn't really celtic, and the word Eostar-monath is anything but celtic. Did someone mean 'Germanic year? Akerbeltz ( talk) 15:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
33 is given as the year of the death of Jesus in the article. I understood that "most" people understood that Dionysius Exiguus computed the year wrong when he came up with the current system of numbering. (Dionysius article is ambiguous as well). Anyway, outside of Wikipedia (!) I thought most people believed that Jesus was really born in 4 BC (no year 0) and therefore died in 30 AD, in his 33rd year. This can even be pinned down to a day of the year 33, April 7 to correspond with Passover that year. Here is one such chronology which is probably not usable as a reference unfortunately. Student7 ( talk) 22:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm working on a footer for Easter related pages. Feel free to jump in and help make it better. Remember ( talk) 19:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone has just coined the word "Anglosphere" for certain Anglophone countries. Isn't this WP:OR? Is India and Nigeria included? I assume not though there are more English books published in India than anywhere else. Sounds ambiguous to me. Student7 ( talk) 11:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The statement that Easter is "also called Pascha" is odd. That is the Latin term (hence "paschal", French "Pâques" etc.), but never used in English.
Although "Easter" is the norm when it comes to the title of this holiday (in English that is), many English speaking Christians do use the term Pascha. Eastern Orthodoxy is a prime example of this. Though Orthodoxy does not have a major foothold in English Speaking countries comparative to other denominations, it still has a long history in Christianity and is still among the primary denominations worldwide. For these reasons (that of the word "Pascha" is used in english, and the term "Pascha" is commonly accepted amongst many around the world if those weren't made clear earlier) I'm adding "also known as Pascha" in the beginning of this article to add for a more neutral stance between the different ways of the Eastern and Western churches. Johnpjr ( talk) 02:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The etymology section should note that the ultimate root of the word is the same as that for "east" and "yeast" - all connoting "rising."
The etymology section "germanic languages" ought to mention, that there are only two languages, English and German, where the origin of the feast's name might derive from something like "eostur". All other germanic languages from Dutch to Icelandic use a form of "pascha" like all the non-germanic languages do. So if there ever was a goddess "Eostre" or so, it seems to have been at least no goddess common to all germanic tribes. Says someone who would like to apologize for his poor English. By the way: Happy Easter to everyone out there! 80.144.191.189 ( talk) 10:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The last paragraph in the current introduction seems overly complicated, at least for an introduction. Would you agree with that? If so, any thoughts on how to keep only the essential information in that paragraph and moving the details elsewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.254.165 ( talk) 14:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
That John contradicts the synoptics is the neutral point of view. The Gospel texts themselves support this. It is trying to reconcile them that generates all kinds of sophistry and tendentious pleading.-- Mockingbird0 ( talk) 17:01, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Jews don't celebrate Easter, they celebrate Passover, beginning on Nisan 15. Also, the Council of Nicaea did not anathemize the Quartodecimans, Constantine simply decreed that all Christians should celebrate Easter on the same day, to be announced by the Bishop of Alexandria, without determining specifically what that day was, which is still true today, see Easter controversy. 64.149.83.12 ( talk) 05:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The annotations in the Zondervan NIV Study Bible take as their presupposition that there is no discrepancy between the Johannine and Synoptic passion chronologies. Such a tendentious reading is not NPOV. In any case, the wording I prefer cites this source accurately.
I see no justification for referring to the Gospel chronology question in the section about the quartodeciman controversy. Neither Hippolytus, nor Eusebius, nor the author of the Adversus omnes haereses attributed to Tertullian, nor Epiphanius mentions the chronology question in connection with their discussions of quartodecimanism. Epiphanius states as fact, in his discussion of the quartodecimans, that "Christ had to be slain on the fourteenth of the month in accordance with the Law," but he does not refer to any discrepancy with the synoptic Gospels, or connect the quartodecimans with the Gospel of John in any way. Following Hippolytus, he states that they take as their proof-text "Cursed be he who shall not keep the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month", while the "solar quartodecimans", who celebrate Easter on March 25th, take as their authority the Acts of Pilate. Panarion, Heresy 50. When Epiphanius goes through the Johannine chronology in detail, it is not in connection with the quartodecimans, but in his description of sectarians who refuse to accept the Gospel of John or the Revelation. Panarion, Heresy 51.
A much later Easter controversy involved the definition of the Week of Unleavened Bread, with some arguing for luna 14 to luna 20, and others for luna 15 to luna 21 (the view that prevailed and is still used). This is the controversy referred to by Columbanus and Bede, for example. It may be that the Gospel chronology question was cited in the course of this controversy (though no name springs to mind). But it was a later controversy, not the quartodeciman controversy.
The statement about Roman emperors interfering with the Jewish calendar, if it is not to be scrapped altogether, belongs in the section of 3rd/4th century controversy and council, not in the section on the quartodeciman controversy. Furthermore, Ben-Sasson is the editor, not the author, of the History cited, though he contributed the section on the middle ages. The author of the section in question (which clearly states that it is referring to the reign of Constantius in the 4th century) is S. Safrai, who cites no sources for the statement.-- Mockingbird0 ( talk) 00:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)