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So I'm a Dutch guy in the Netherlands who loves Belgium and hates the Netherlands, that is my bias. That being said, in the Dutch language, I've never heard this movement called "Early Netherlandish Painting" before at all, ever, but maybe that's just me. I normally hear it referred to as "Vlaamse Primitieven," even in Dutch media. "The Netherlands" and "Netherlandish" is ambiguous because it gets easily confused as a homonym with the modern country of the Netherlands, and thus not with Belgium, while the vast majority, or practically all of these painters were from what is now Belgium. This is an art movement that is associated with Belgium and modern-day Flanders in particular.
It's like you're referring to a mostly Scottish art movement primarily based in Scotland with maybe a few painters in
Berwick-upon-Tweed, that is well known as "Highlander Classics" (made up for the sake of analogy), which may not be totally accurate because not all Scots are Highlanders, but then people want to call it "Old British Painting," except here it's even worse because Netherlands the region and Netherlands the country are homonyms, so effectively in this analogy it would be called "Old Anglo-Saxon Painting."
And I'm sorry, I may be paranoid, but I always feel like there's a bit of Dutch-glory, fuck the Belgians bias in the making of these decisions.
Anyway, I know that the titles of these kinds of articles are probably based on what they are best known as in academic circles, so my question is, in the English language, is this movement better known as "Flemish Primitives" or "Early Netherlandish painting"? If in academic circles it's widely known as Flemish Primitives but you're worried about the fact not all or most of the Southern Low Countries were part of the
County of Flanders, you can call it Flemish Primitives, and then just as with the current name clarify that despite the name it refers to a movement that flourished primarily in the Southern Low Countries (present day Belgium) as the article already does.
I'd rather have a layman confused about the modern state of Flanders not being the same as the Medieval County of Flanders than have them think all of this rich culture is actually Dutch. If it is indeed much more widely known as Early Netherlandish Painting then I'll shut up, but the argument can't be made that it's a more accurate name.
Dapperedavid (
talk)
10:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
"Erwin Panofsky preferred the term ars nova ("new art"), which linked the movement with innovative composers of music such as Guillaume Dufay and Gilles Binchois, who were favoured by the Burgundian court over artists attached to the lavish French court.[6]"
I under fully recognize that this is cited but I'm not sure how it could make sense. The
ars nova style was active from 1310–1377 or the 14th century by the narrowest and broadest definitions respectively. Du Fay and Binchois were both composers of the 15th century, after
ars nova and
Ars subtilior and at the beginning of the Renaissance (Renaissance music begins around the 1400s). If all that is needed here are important ars nova composers then
Guillaume de Machaut is by far the most prominent, followed by
Philippe de Vitry.
Aza24 (
talk)
23:51, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Shouldn't the filesizes be reduced? Thank you for your time. Lotje ( talk) 16:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Early Netherlandish painting article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 11, 2014. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
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This page has archives. Sections older than 120 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
So I'm a Dutch guy in the Netherlands who loves Belgium and hates the Netherlands, that is my bias. That being said, in the Dutch language, I've never heard this movement called "Early Netherlandish Painting" before at all, ever, but maybe that's just me. I normally hear it referred to as "Vlaamse Primitieven," even in Dutch media. "The Netherlands" and "Netherlandish" is ambiguous because it gets easily confused as a homonym with the modern country of the Netherlands, and thus not with Belgium, while the vast majority, or practically all of these painters were from what is now Belgium. This is an art movement that is associated with Belgium and modern-day Flanders in particular.
It's like you're referring to a mostly Scottish art movement primarily based in Scotland with maybe a few painters in
Berwick-upon-Tweed, that is well known as "Highlander Classics" (made up for the sake of analogy), which may not be totally accurate because not all Scots are Highlanders, but then people want to call it "Old British Painting," except here it's even worse because Netherlands the region and Netherlands the country are homonyms, so effectively in this analogy it would be called "Old Anglo-Saxon Painting."
And I'm sorry, I may be paranoid, but I always feel like there's a bit of Dutch-glory, fuck the Belgians bias in the making of these decisions.
Anyway, I know that the titles of these kinds of articles are probably based on what they are best known as in academic circles, so my question is, in the English language, is this movement better known as "Flemish Primitives" or "Early Netherlandish painting"? If in academic circles it's widely known as Flemish Primitives but you're worried about the fact not all or most of the Southern Low Countries were part of the
County of Flanders, you can call it Flemish Primitives, and then just as with the current name clarify that despite the name it refers to a movement that flourished primarily in the Southern Low Countries (present day Belgium) as the article already does.
I'd rather have a layman confused about the modern state of Flanders not being the same as the Medieval County of Flanders than have them think all of this rich culture is actually Dutch. If it is indeed much more widely known as Early Netherlandish Painting then I'll shut up, but the argument can't be made that it's a more accurate name.
Dapperedavid (
talk)
10:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
"Erwin Panofsky preferred the term ars nova ("new art"), which linked the movement with innovative composers of music such as Guillaume Dufay and Gilles Binchois, who were favoured by the Burgundian court over artists attached to the lavish French court.[6]"
I under fully recognize that this is cited but I'm not sure how it could make sense. The
ars nova style was active from 1310–1377 or the 14th century by the narrowest and broadest definitions respectively. Du Fay and Binchois were both composers of the 15th century, after
ars nova and
Ars subtilior and at the beginning of the Renaissance (Renaissance music begins around the 1400s). If all that is needed here are important ars nova composers then
Guillaume de Machaut is by far the most prominent, followed by
Philippe de Vitry.
Aza24 (
talk)
23:51, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Shouldn't the filesizes be reduced? Thank you for your time. Lotje ( talk) 16:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)