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The SHA is missing; what is here called OT should be called omega. OT is the the name for the omega with the tripodial t over it.
Otherwise, excellent image.
19:34, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sha is the last letter on the 3rd row. 81.153.120.175 09:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I've created a table and images to replace Djinn112's excellent image. I figure this one will be easier to edit. I've tried to incorporate the info from the original image, and also from this image I found in the Ukrainian Wikipedia:
Does everything show up correctly? Are all the diacritics there? Do the nasalization symbols in the IPA for the Yuses appear in your browser? (They don't on my Mac with Verdana specified in the stylesheet, but I think they're specified correctly.)
Since old manuscripts didn't differentiate letter case, I haven't included upper-/lower-case letters in the images, but I did include them in the Unicode column. I used lower-case Kirillica Nova font for the images, since it was simple, included most of the characters, and captured the look of manuscripts. I've left out the "er" near the end, which I think is a differently-drawn Hard Sign. Is the last glyph really a separate letter, or just an ornamental Omega? I think some of the transliterations may need a bit of adjustment. Can anyone supply IPA for the letters' names?
— Michael Z. 20:49, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)
Table and discussion archived to Talk:Early Cyrillic alphabet/Alphabet table
Here they are. Most don't work in any of my web browsers. Needs some work, and more pictures. Have to take the plunge and move that table over soon.
Several diacritics, adopted from Polytonic Greek orthography, were also used [these may not appear correctly in all web browsers]:
U+1FFD
), similar to an
acute accentU+1FEF
), similar to a
grave accentU+0484
), similar to an inverted
breveU+0485
)U+0486
)U+0483
)U+0308
)Punctuation marks:
U+0589
), resembling a
colonU+037E
), similar to a
semicolonU+0387
), a middle dot used as a word separator— OwenBlacker 14:39, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)
About as good as the results in Safari/Mac:
In all my fonts that have them, the pneuma appear as tiny half-Н glyphs. Does Unicode have a way to make non-combining accents combine? — Michael Z. 2005-02-1 16:51 Z
I've linked the Unicode letters to the individual letter articles. Dzherv is broken, because it's really a transliterated Glagolitic letter; Tshe and Dje are related glyphs, but not the same letter, methinks. — Michael Z. 2005-02-4 05:38 Z
Also corrected the IPA. Used the ligature (U+02A6) for [ts], and corrected the position of the double combining inverted breve (U+0361) for [ks] and [ps]. Yes, it looks wrong in Arial Unicode MS -- that font renders it incorrectly, too far to the left. But it looks right in every other font that has the character (try Lucida Grande, Code2000, Gentium, or TITUS Cyberbit). — Michael Z. 2005-02-4 06:30 Z
194.51.131.78, I reverted your edit to the lines for ksi and psi. As noted above (and in more detail at Talk:International Phonetic Alphabet#Other symbols), the common font Arial Unicode MS renders the double combining diacritics improperly. Paste the text into a text editor and change the font; you'll find that it appears correctly in every other font that supports these characters. — Michael Z. 2005-07-8 18:43 Z
Close front rounded vowel is there in the Slavic language?― 219.173.119.52 04:58, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I've assessed the article as start. The description of the alphabet itself is well done, but there is very little other information, such as history, usage, evolution, etc. The ikiroid ( talk· desk· Advise me) 03:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the way this article is written. It presents the modern version of the alphabet as currently used in "Old Church Slavonic", but the title implies that it is the version used a thousand years ago or so. An article with the current title should be using glyphs directly off of images of the earliest attestations of the language, not current, typeset versions.
I don't know much about the original alphabet that shows up in those old birchbark manuscripts, but I do know a lot about the current version. The capital letters are almost all missing. Why? There is no discussion of the "breath mark" that appears over all initial vowels, capital or lower case. There is no discussion about the letters that take two different forms depending on their place in the word (word-initial vs. medial or final) [examples: ya and ou]. There is no discussion about the various forms that the stress-accent marks take, or the way the double-dotted I functions.
Regarding the "ornate omega": This is the capital version of the previous glyph (OT). In some versions of this glyph, the little "hat" part looks like a truncated T.
I think the table could benefit from a new column providing the translation of teh meaning of the name of the letter (where known).
I think the best solution is to divide this content into two pages, one for the ancient version and one for the modern. I'll tag the page next. Cbdorsett 04:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
How can the modern Serbian letter ћ be the origin of the Old-Slavonic gerv? As far as I know, travelling into past was not invented.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.151.252.224 ( talk • contribs)
I think that cyrillic buki hasn't developed from greek beta but rather from glagolitic buki which is essentially an image of a tree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.146.115.126 ( talk) 15:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The article heavily talks about the obscure Bulgar alphabet. The Bulgar alphabet is nonexistent on Wikipedia, not mentioned in any citations (i.e. in external links or bibliography), and the letters that are designated as (possibly) of Bulgar origin quite often have Greek or Glagolitic parallels, i.e. origins. The Bulgar alphabet, I guess, is supposed to be some late obscure form of the Orkhon Script, but without any references it should be removed. Or please, do add definite references. Szabi ( talk) 18:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Please don't add material which is not verifiable, that is, without citing a reliable source. Please discuss editing the article—if you personally dislike the established name for this alphabet, I suggest you take that to a chat group. — Michael Z. 2008-05-21 16:58 z
Attribution of creation to St. Clement of Ohrid has been considered as coming from an unreliable source since 1970, at least. [See: Jensen, Hans. Sign, Symbol and Script. London: George Allen and Unwin Ltd., 1970. pp. 502. -- though this source disseminates the incorrect idea that Cyrillic came before Glagolitic]. The Wikipedia article, "Cyrillic Alphabet," contains a more accurate historical description, pointing up the "unsettled" nature of the scholarship, and so, eschews any real detail. An excellent discussion of the history of the Cyrillic alphabet can be found in Terence R. Carlton's Introduction to the Phonological History of the Slavic Languages (Columbus: Slavica Publishers, 1990) amongst pp. 50-53. Carlton especially discusses the St. Clement "legend" in detail on pp. 52-53. Thank you. Altobasso ( talk) 20:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Kwami, I don't think it's outrageous for this article to include Hebrew shin as well as the Glagolitic. I think your deletion here and at tse was abrupt and a bit judgemental. It's not wild speculation to say "Glagolitic, ultimately from Hebrew shin". -- Evertype· ✆ 12:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Discussion on giving primacy to Daniels & Bright vs. the Cyril & Methodius legend at talk:glagolitic alphabet. (So far I don't have a more thorough source than D&B.) kwami ( talk) 08:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Another editor removed a line from the table of letters, and I thought I would preserve it here so that if a consensus is reached to replace the information, it is preserved.
Ћ ћ | гѥрв | gerv, gjerv | [d͡ʒɛrv], [djɛrv] | đ, dj | [d͡ʒ], [dj] | Glagolitic djerv Ⰼ ? | Revived for Serbian. In Russian, it is used in academic texts to transliterate Glagolitic. |
It was removed by User:Kostja with the edit summary: (Removing contradiction)
I didn't think it was particularly contradictory, but I don't actually know much about the history of the early Cyrillic alphabet, so I would ask those who are more informed to judge whether this content was correctly removed. Van Isaac WS 03:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I rewrote the introduction according to the general accepted facts by the scientists. Please do not revert it if you do not like, we just present the fact. It is a fact that the alphabet is based on the Greek, it is a fact that is was developed for the Slavs in general and it is a fact that the first organized country that officially accepted the alphabet is the Bulgarian Empire. Please do not delete facts. Thanks-- MacedonianBoy ( talk) 14:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Ximhua, please do not modify this facts supported by reliable sources. Your edits appear to be unconstructive and have been reverted or removed. If you believe the information you removed was incorrect, please cite reliable references or sources or discuss the changes on the article's talk page before making them again. Thank you. Jingiby ( talk) 14:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Was this letter used at all in Old East Slavic? In (early) Old Church Slavonic, it represented a unique sound that derived from Proto-Slavic *ť / *tj, but that same sound became č in East Slavic so it was presumably spelled with Ч there. So was Щ used for anything in OES and if so, to represent what sound(s)? CodeCat ( talk) 02:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Please note that images uploaded by user Vaskots7 contain a lot of mistakes and original researches. I removed them from the article, please don't bring those errors back to the article.-- 95.37.236.218 ( talk) 12:06, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
I need expert help here: Shouldn't the first line of this illustration read БЪЛГАРЬСКА instead of БЛЪГАРЬСКА? Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 04:44, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't want to infer anything, but let me point out that "хѣр" ~ χηρ in Khazar (=> probably in Oghur Bulgar, too) meant 'daughter'. It's cognitive with the Oghuz/Kipchak "kız" meaning the same. Can somebody knowing modern Chuvash add how it's in that language (which, as far as I know, is descendant from Old Bulgar)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.18.237 ( talk) 15:51, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
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The user 70.74.112.20 has attempted to change, in the original pronunciation/names of letters, ꙃ to ѕ, ѳ to ф, and оу to ѹ. Additionally, some citations were deleted. All of this was done without any discussion, and each time, these changes were reverted by multiple editors, namely Vorziblix, Drmccreedy, and Jingiby. I would like to invite 70.74.112.20 to discuss these changes and make an argument for them. While the IP user has been blocked, this block expires today, so discussion can begin very soon. Pinging @ Vorziblix, Drmccreedy, and Jingiby: to make aware, as well, so that further discussion can take place. BirdValiant ( talk) 16:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Learn the other alphabets 2A00:23C7:B6A7:2501:C5EA:6652:14C5:B39A ( talk) 21:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
There have been several edits recently, mostly by 46.34.233.135 and Thulean enjoyer involving changing letter names.
I feel like this warrants a review / citation of all letter names. Maks-s15 ( talk) 08:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The SHA is missing; what is here called OT should be called omega. OT is the the name for the omega with the tripodial t over it.
Otherwise, excellent image.
19:34, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sha is the last letter on the 3rd row. 81.153.120.175 09:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I've created a table and images to replace Djinn112's excellent image. I figure this one will be easier to edit. I've tried to incorporate the info from the original image, and also from this image I found in the Ukrainian Wikipedia:
Does everything show up correctly? Are all the diacritics there? Do the nasalization symbols in the IPA for the Yuses appear in your browser? (They don't on my Mac with Verdana specified in the stylesheet, but I think they're specified correctly.)
Since old manuscripts didn't differentiate letter case, I haven't included upper-/lower-case letters in the images, but I did include them in the Unicode column. I used lower-case Kirillica Nova font for the images, since it was simple, included most of the characters, and captured the look of manuscripts. I've left out the "er" near the end, which I think is a differently-drawn Hard Sign. Is the last glyph really a separate letter, or just an ornamental Omega? I think some of the transliterations may need a bit of adjustment. Can anyone supply IPA for the letters' names?
— Michael Z. 20:49, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)
Table and discussion archived to Talk:Early Cyrillic alphabet/Alphabet table
Here they are. Most don't work in any of my web browsers. Needs some work, and more pictures. Have to take the plunge and move that table over soon.
Several diacritics, adopted from Polytonic Greek orthography, were also used [these may not appear correctly in all web browsers]:
U+1FFD
), similar to an
acute accentU+1FEF
), similar to a
grave accentU+0484
), similar to an inverted
breveU+0485
)U+0486
)U+0483
)U+0308
)Punctuation marks:
U+0589
), resembling a
colonU+037E
), similar to a
semicolonU+0387
), a middle dot used as a word separator— OwenBlacker 14:39, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)
About as good as the results in Safari/Mac:
In all my fonts that have them, the pneuma appear as tiny half-Н glyphs. Does Unicode have a way to make non-combining accents combine? — Michael Z. 2005-02-1 16:51 Z
I've linked the Unicode letters to the individual letter articles. Dzherv is broken, because it's really a transliterated Glagolitic letter; Tshe and Dje are related glyphs, but not the same letter, methinks. — Michael Z. 2005-02-4 05:38 Z
Also corrected the IPA. Used the ligature (U+02A6) for [ts], and corrected the position of the double combining inverted breve (U+0361) for [ks] and [ps]. Yes, it looks wrong in Arial Unicode MS -- that font renders it incorrectly, too far to the left. But it looks right in every other font that has the character (try Lucida Grande, Code2000, Gentium, or TITUS Cyberbit). — Michael Z. 2005-02-4 06:30 Z
194.51.131.78, I reverted your edit to the lines for ksi and psi. As noted above (and in more detail at Talk:International Phonetic Alphabet#Other symbols), the common font Arial Unicode MS renders the double combining diacritics improperly. Paste the text into a text editor and change the font; you'll find that it appears correctly in every other font that supports these characters. — Michael Z. 2005-07-8 18:43 Z
Close front rounded vowel is there in the Slavic language?― 219.173.119.52 04:58, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I've assessed the article as start. The description of the alphabet itself is well done, but there is very little other information, such as history, usage, evolution, etc. The ikiroid ( talk· desk· Advise me) 03:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the way this article is written. It presents the modern version of the alphabet as currently used in "Old Church Slavonic", but the title implies that it is the version used a thousand years ago or so. An article with the current title should be using glyphs directly off of images of the earliest attestations of the language, not current, typeset versions.
I don't know much about the original alphabet that shows up in those old birchbark manuscripts, but I do know a lot about the current version. The capital letters are almost all missing. Why? There is no discussion of the "breath mark" that appears over all initial vowels, capital or lower case. There is no discussion about the letters that take two different forms depending on their place in the word (word-initial vs. medial or final) [examples: ya and ou]. There is no discussion about the various forms that the stress-accent marks take, or the way the double-dotted I functions.
Regarding the "ornate omega": This is the capital version of the previous glyph (OT). In some versions of this glyph, the little "hat" part looks like a truncated T.
I think the table could benefit from a new column providing the translation of teh meaning of the name of the letter (where known).
I think the best solution is to divide this content into two pages, one for the ancient version and one for the modern. I'll tag the page next. Cbdorsett 04:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
How can the modern Serbian letter ћ be the origin of the Old-Slavonic gerv? As far as I know, travelling into past was not invented.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.151.252.224 ( talk • contribs)
I think that cyrillic buki hasn't developed from greek beta but rather from glagolitic buki which is essentially an image of a tree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.146.115.126 ( talk) 15:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The article heavily talks about the obscure Bulgar alphabet. The Bulgar alphabet is nonexistent on Wikipedia, not mentioned in any citations (i.e. in external links or bibliography), and the letters that are designated as (possibly) of Bulgar origin quite often have Greek or Glagolitic parallels, i.e. origins. The Bulgar alphabet, I guess, is supposed to be some late obscure form of the Orkhon Script, but without any references it should be removed. Or please, do add definite references. Szabi ( talk) 18:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Please don't add material which is not verifiable, that is, without citing a reliable source. Please discuss editing the article—if you personally dislike the established name for this alphabet, I suggest you take that to a chat group. — Michael Z. 2008-05-21 16:58 z
Attribution of creation to St. Clement of Ohrid has been considered as coming from an unreliable source since 1970, at least. [See: Jensen, Hans. Sign, Symbol and Script. London: George Allen and Unwin Ltd., 1970. pp. 502. -- though this source disseminates the incorrect idea that Cyrillic came before Glagolitic]. The Wikipedia article, "Cyrillic Alphabet," contains a more accurate historical description, pointing up the "unsettled" nature of the scholarship, and so, eschews any real detail. An excellent discussion of the history of the Cyrillic alphabet can be found in Terence R. Carlton's Introduction to the Phonological History of the Slavic Languages (Columbus: Slavica Publishers, 1990) amongst pp. 50-53. Carlton especially discusses the St. Clement "legend" in detail on pp. 52-53. Thank you. Altobasso ( talk) 20:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Kwami, I don't think it's outrageous for this article to include Hebrew shin as well as the Glagolitic. I think your deletion here and at tse was abrupt and a bit judgemental. It's not wild speculation to say "Glagolitic, ultimately from Hebrew shin". -- Evertype· ✆ 12:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Discussion on giving primacy to Daniels & Bright vs. the Cyril & Methodius legend at talk:glagolitic alphabet. (So far I don't have a more thorough source than D&B.) kwami ( talk) 08:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Another editor removed a line from the table of letters, and I thought I would preserve it here so that if a consensus is reached to replace the information, it is preserved.
Ћ ћ | гѥрв | gerv, gjerv | [d͡ʒɛrv], [djɛrv] | đ, dj | [d͡ʒ], [dj] | Glagolitic djerv Ⰼ ? | Revived for Serbian. In Russian, it is used in academic texts to transliterate Glagolitic. |
It was removed by User:Kostja with the edit summary: (Removing contradiction)
I didn't think it was particularly contradictory, but I don't actually know much about the history of the early Cyrillic alphabet, so I would ask those who are more informed to judge whether this content was correctly removed. Van Isaac WS 03:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I rewrote the introduction according to the general accepted facts by the scientists. Please do not revert it if you do not like, we just present the fact. It is a fact that the alphabet is based on the Greek, it is a fact that is was developed for the Slavs in general and it is a fact that the first organized country that officially accepted the alphabet is the Bulgarian Empire. Please do not delete facts. Thanks-- MacedonianBoy ( talk) 14:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Ximhua, please do not modify this facts supported by reliable sources. Your edits appear to be unconstructive and have been reverted or removed. If you believe the information you removed was incorrect, please cite reliable references or sources or discuss the changes on the article's talk page before making them again. Thank you. Jingiby ( talk) 14:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Was this letter used at all in Old East Slavic? In (early) Old Church Slavonic, it represented a unique sound that derived from Proto-Slavic *ť / *tj, but that same sound became č in East Slavic so it was presumably spelled with Ч there. So was Щ used for anything in OES and if so, to represent what sound(s)? CodeCat ( talk) 02:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Please note that images uploaded by user Vaskots7 contain a lot of mistakes and original researches. I removed them from the article, please don't bring those errors back to the article.-- 95.37.236.218 ( talk) 12:06, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
I need expert help here: Shouldn't the first line of this illustration read БЪЛГАРЬСКА instead of БЛЪГАРЬСКА? Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 04:44, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't want to infer anything, but let me point out that "хѣр" ~ χηρ in Khazar (=> probably in Oghur Bulgar, too) meant 'daughter'. It's cognitive with the Oghuz/Kipchak "kız" meaning the same. Can somebody knowing modern Chuvash add how it's in that language (which, as far as I know, is descendant from Old Bulgar)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.18.237 ( talk) 15:51, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
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The user 70.74.112.20 has attempted to change, in the original pronunciation/names of letters, ꙃ to ѕ, ѳ to ф, and оу to ѹ. Additionally, some citations were deleted. All of this was done without any discussion, and each time, these changes were reverted by multiple editors, namely Vorziblix, Drmccreedy, and Jingiby. I would like to invite 70.74.112.20 to discuss these changes and make an argument for them. While the IP user has been blocked, this block expires today, so discussion can begin very soon. Pinging @ Vorziblix, Drmccreedy, and Jingiby: to make aware, as well, so that further discussion can take place. BirdValiant ( talk) 16:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Learn the other alphabets 2A00:23C7:B6A7:2501:C5EA:6652:14C5:B39A ( talk) 21:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
There have been several edits recently, mostly by 46.34.233.135 and Thulean enjoyer involving changing letter names.
I feel like this warrants a review / citation of all letter names. Maks-s15 ( talk) 08:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)