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A map of NYC showing the boudaries of Dyker Heights is needed. (in the top left corner)
Images of the parks, waterfront and the homes. (right below the desciption of the location)
There are illustrations, photos and floorplans of the Dyker Heights Country Club in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. The club was renamed the Italian American Country Club at some point in the 1930s.
jeez, I look at this and I know it was definitely written with the promotion of real estate in mind. The buzzwords of developers and building histories makes this very clear. Hey, put up a little neighborhood history, some hotass century 21 agents' #s, a view of the Verrazano, and you might get a few offers right now.-- Screwball23 talk 02:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it really appropriate to describe Dyker Heights as "suburban?" According to Wikipedia itself, in the U.S., the term is not commonly applied to areas within the limits of the defining city. And as a native Brooklynite I'd certainly never have described areas within Brooklyn as suburban, except perhaps metaphorically. DeSales 23:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Cjz208 feels that these editorial comments belong in the article. Anyone have an opinion? CitiCat ♫ 12:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Reply from CJZ208 on 00:39, 1 Nov 2007
I tried to answer these as objectively as possible. Let us have a dialogue if anything is not clear or needs to be challenged. If anyone feels that the explanations offered herein could supplement the article than please feel free and add them verbatim or paraphrased.
“Very few of these homes fit into the historic context of Dyker Heights…” 1. Infill homes that are fully and semi attached and some fully detached homes are by definition not in the historical character of original DH because they are:
a. on lots smaller than the minimal lot of DH homes (60X100)
b. of different architectural design (not Queen Anne)
c. built after the initial development stopped (~1902).
2. Infill homes that are fully detached and are of “mini mansion” scale and/or renovated homes
a. Bricking over DH homes takes them out of the historical context. No exterior bricks were used in the original homes.
b. Mediterranean homes/villas are of a totally different architecture, they are not in the Queen Anne style. They represent the southern European character of the neighborhood as it is today; this is different from the northern European character of the neighborhood 110 years ago. Thus it is not historically connected.
3. Condos
a. Do I really need to explain this one?
4. The Saitta House is not in a Historic District
a. If these homes were historically connected, then the Saitta House would be in a Historic District.
“Very few have been constructed with the high level of design, craftsmanship, and materials exhibited by the Saitta House - both inside and out.”
1. The interior of new homes have plaster board. The Saitta house has wainscoting.
2. If infill homes were of equal merit, they too would get listing for their architectural spirit.
“The Saitta House is significant in that it retains a high degree of integrity of location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling, and association.”
1. This is all true, that is why the home was listed on both the state and national register of historic places.
"In addition to the efforts by local government officials to help protect the character of the neighborhood, the community should recognize those who have preserved Dyker Heights’ historic houses through the years.
1. The new zoning was put in place to preserve the character of DH, that is why Bay Ridge has new zoning.
As for the historical society: “The recently established Dyker Heights Historical Society, [this is true, it was established in 2006] associated with the Dyker Heights Civic Association founded in 1928 [this is also true, as that is how it was established], is raising the community’s awareness of its rich historic and architectural heritage [this is also true, as part of the affiliation with the DHCA, the DHHS is editing the Wikipedia article, and lecturing the DHCA, as well as the Bay Ridge Historical Society, and the Society of Old Brooklynites]. The first official action of the Historical Society was the preparation of the Saitta House National Register nomination. [This is true as well.] The Dyker Heights Historical Society will begin to help the residents of this locality finally recognize and appreciate the beauty, quality, and importance of the original homes of Dyker Heights, as well as help them learn about the history to become prouder of this great community [again, true. I lecture and edit this article]. It is important for people to know that the DHHS exists and what it does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjz208 ( talk • contribs) 04:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has many, many problems. Nearly every assertion is uncited. Much of the language and tone is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article, contains obvious original research, and whole sections that rely on quotes and unsourced interpretation. There are numerous Manual of Style violations, and nearly every image appears to be a copyright violation and will soon be deleted. I have tagged where necessary, and left inline comments to aid the process of cleaning up. I trust that the primary author of the article ( as noted in the New York Times) knows what they are talking about and it should be fairly easy to provide references. However, an uninvolved third party will need to step in and get rid of the POV and original research, as well as fixing the overall tone problems.
Additionally, there is no information about transportation, demographics, attractions, and, well, pretty much everything else that can be found in every other NYC neighborhood article.
The article really isn't bad, and the author(s) know what they are talking about, but cites must be provided, the language needs to be neutralized a bit, and there needs to be a more broad focus. -- Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 05:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
You need to expand on the demographics of the neighborhood in this article to at least bring it up to par with one that properly describes the neighborhood. If you don't know how to obtain these demographics, just look on the City of New York website in the Department of City Planning's pages. There are figures from, among other things, the 2000 census on median income, population statistics, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.116.31.59 ( talk) 05:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
This is supposed to be in Brooklyn, but takes you to a location upstate. Matt Zeidenberg ( talk) 03:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
User:Cjz208 continues to add his own opinions to this article as facts (I understand this opinions may be held by others as well, but they are still opinions). I recently removed the statement "Very few of these homes fit into the historic context of Dyker Heights and very few have been constructed with the high level of design, craftsmanship, and materials exhibited by the Saitta House - both inside and out" - and the words "Unfortunately many" from the statement "Unfortunately, many of Dyker Heights’ original surviving homes have been extensively renovated and remodeled." He immediately reverted those edits with the edit summary "Historic context is correct. It is written in the State and National Registers of Historic Places Report for the Saitta House". Once again I am stating for you - Wikipedia articles are for facts, not your opinions, or those of your society, no matter how strongly you may feel about them. CitiCat ♫ 16:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
From WP:3o - it does not appear that the sources provided in the paragraph as written support the statements. If there are people who say the new houses are bad, certainly they have had their statements published somewhere. Where have these statements been published? Hipocrite ( talk) 16:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Haven't we gone over this before?
1. historic context - if the homes were built in the historical context (design, craftsmanship, and materials) then the saitta house would be within an historic district. the state/feds found no other home to have a similar merits.
2a. Unfortunately - again, if they were not altered/demolished there would be an historic district and/or other homes added to the register.
2b. Unfortunately - DH (and BR) were both re-zoned by the City Council to protect the community from condos/overdevelopment.
If you were to read the entire SH report, the answers to your question(s) would be present. File find "150" and also look at the photos which show demolition and condos replacing original homes.
I think the article would benefit more if you were to add substance: photos, stories, history, current events, citations, rather than by picking at pieces and deleting whole chunks. Be constructive, not destructive. Add a blurb about Christmas Lights or Parks or find another supporting documentation. Be like Matt Zeidenberg who made a nice, useful edit on the navigation. Or Rostdo who added section (and a photo) on the sunshine society’s blind school. Cjz208 ( talk) 17:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Over a period of two years various statements which appear to be at best synthesis have been placed in the article. Numerous discussions have failed to resolve the question of these comments being acceptable under Wikipedia guidelines. CitiCat ♫ 02:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 16:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
The information in this subsection is entirely useless and un-encyclopedic. Not another NYC neighborhood has this dreck (in a quick sample of ten+ in multiple boroughs I took to make sure I wasn't crazy). Just having a cite doesn't make it automatically appropriate to include. Schools are listed, places of worship as well, because those exist uniquely in and of the neighborhood, like its notable residents, parks, and landmarks. But saying NYPD and Brooklyn Public Library serve a neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York is so asinine and just clutters the page. If the precinct or branch or ladderhouse had its own page or was in any way significant, I could see its merit to include it. As it stands there is no reason Dyker Heights should be alone in the encyclopedia in having non-encyclopedic information on its page just because User:Alansohn wants it there without any rationale given or MOS to back it up. JesseRafe ( talk) 19:09, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
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@ Alansohn: WP:ONUS and WP:BURDEN apply. Please don’t keep reverting when you haven’t done what you need to do, its disruptive and doubly so when you don’t understand whats going on so you make wild accusations. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:47, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
To any editors who are not already directly involved in this discussion, should we include crime or health statistics? Should we go as far as removing police precincts and fire engines that serve the neighborhood? I propose removing minor details like petty crime, bodega count, or police precinct/fire station addresses, but the above concerns the removal of nearly all info about crime and health, even if the information has been there for two years. Note that I had added this information two years ago, but some of the details do not fall under WP:DUE. Epicgenius ( talk) 00:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dyker Heights, Brooklyn article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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A map of NYC showing the boudaries of Dyker Heights is needed. (in the top left corner)
Images of the parks, waterfront and the homes. (right below the desciption of the location)
There are illustrations, photos and floorplans of the Dyker Heights Country Club in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. The club was renamed the Italian American Country Club at some point in the 1930s.
jeez, I look at this and I know it was definitely written with the promotion of real estate in mind. The buzzwords of developers and building histories makes this very clear. Hey, put up a little neighborhood history, some hotass century 21 agents' #s, a view of the Verrazano, and you might get a few offers right now.-- Screwball23 talk 02:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it really appropriate to describe Dyker Heights as "suburban?" According to Wikipedia itself, in the U.S., the term is not commonly applied to areas within the limits of the defining city. And as a native Brooklynite I'd certainly never have described areas within Brooklyn as suburban, except perhaps metaphorically. DeSales 23:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Cjz208 feels that these editorial comments belong in the article. Anyone have an opinion? CitiCat ♫ 12:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Reply from CJZ208 on 00:39, 1 Nov 2007
I tried to answer these as objectively as possible. Let us have a dialogue if anything is not clear or needs to be challenged. If anyone feels that the explanations offered herein could supplement the article than please feel free and add them verbatim or paraphrased.
“Very few of these homes fit into the historic context of Dyker Heights…” 1. Infill homes that are fully and semi attached and some fully detached homes are by definition not in the historical character of original DH because they are:
a. on lots smaller than the minimal lot of DH homes (60X100)
b. of different architectural design (not Queen Anne)
c. built after the initial development stopped (~1902).
2. Infill homes that are fully detached and are of “mini mansion” scale and/or renovated homes
a. Bricking over DH homes takes them out of the historical context. No exterior bricks were used in the original homes.
b. Mediterranean homes/villas are of a totally different architecture, they are not in the Queen Anne style. They represent the southern European character of the neighborhood as it is today; this is different from the northern European character of the neighborhood 110 years ago. Thus it is not historically connected.
3. Condos
a. Do I really need to explain this one?
4. The Saitta House is not in a Historic District
a. If these homes were historically connected, then the Saitta House would be in a Historic District.
“Very few have been constructed with the high level of design, craftsmanship, and materials exhibited by the Saitta House - both inside and out.”
1. The interior of new homes have plaster board. The Saitta house has wainscoting.
2. If infill homes were of equal merit, they too would get listing for their architectural spirit.
“The Saitta House is significant in that it retains a high degree of integrity of location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling, and association.”
1. This is all true, that is why the home was listed on both the state and national register of historic places.
"In addition to the efforts by local government officials to help protect the character of the neighborhood, the community should recognize those who have preserved Dyker Heights’ historic houses through the years.
1. The new zoning was put in place to preserve the character of DH, that is why Bay Ridge has new zoning.
As for the historical society: “The recently established Dyker Heights Historical Society, [this is true, it was established in 2006] associated with the Dyker Heights Civic Association founded in 1928 [this is also true, as that is how it was established], is raising the community’s awareness of its rich historic and architectural heritage [this is also true, as part of the affiliation with the DHCA, the DHHS is editing the Wikipedia article, and lecturing the DHCA, as well as the Bay Ridge Historical Society, and the Society of Old Brooklynites]. The first official action of the Historical Society was the preparation of the Saitta House National Register nomination. [This is true as well.] The Dyker Heights Historical Society will begin to help the residents of this locality finally recognize and appreciate the beauty, quality, and importance of the original homes of Dyker Heights, as well as help them learn about the history to become prouder of this great community [again, true. I lecture and edit this article]. It is important for people to know that the DHHS exists and what it does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjz208 ( talk • contribs) 04:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has many, many problems. Nearly every assertion is uncited. Much of the language and tone is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article, contains obvious original research, and whole sections that rely on quotes and unsourced interpretation. There are numerous Manual of Style violations, and nearly every image appears to be a copyright violation and will soon be deleted. I have tagged where necessary, and left inline comments to aid the process of cleaning up. I trust that the primary author of the article ( as noted in the New York Times) knows what they are talking about and it should be fairly easy to provide references. However, an uninvolved third party will need to step in and get rid of the POV and original research, as well as fixing the overall tone problems.
Additionally, there is no information about transportation, demographics, attractions, and, well, pretty much everything else that can be found in every other NYC neighborhood article.
The article really isn't bad, and the author(s) know what they are talking about, but cites must be provided, the language needs to be neutralized a bit, and there needs to be a more broad focus. -- Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 05:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
You need to expand on the demographics of the neighborhood in this article to at least bring it up to par with one that properly describes the neighborhood. If you don't know how to obtain these demographics, just look on the City of New York website in the Department of City Planning's pages. There are figures from, among other things, the 2000 census on median income, population statistics, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.116.31.59 ( talk) 05:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
This is supposed to be in Brooklyn, but takes you to a location upstate. Matt Zeidenberg ( talk) 03:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
User:Cjz208 continues to add his own opinions to this article as facts (I understand this opinions may be held by others as well, but they are still opinions). I recently removed the statement "Very few of these homes fit into the historic context of Dyker Heights and very few have been constructed with the high level of design, craftsmanship, and materials exhibited by the Saitta House - both inside and out" - and the words "Unfortunately many" from the statement "Unfortunately, many of Dyker Heights’ original surviving homes have been extensively renovated and remodeled." He immediately reverted those edits with the edit summary "Historic context is correct. It is written in the State and National Registers of Historic Places Report for the Saitta House". Once again I am stating for you - Wikipedia articles are for facts, not your opinions, or those of your society, no matter how strongly you may feel about them. CitiCat ♫ 16:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
From WP:3o - it does not appear that the sources provided in the paragraph as written support the statements. If there are people who say the new houses are bad, certainly they have had their statements published somewhere. Where have these statements been published? Hipocrite ( talk) 16:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Haven't we gone over this before?
1. historic context - if the homes were built in the historical context (design, craftsmanship, and materials) then the saitta house would be within an historic district. the state/feds found no other home to have a similar merits.
2a. Unfortunately - again, if they were not altered/demolished there would be an historic district and/or other homes added to the register.
2b. Unfortunately - DH (and BR) were both re-zoned by the City Council to protect the community from condos/overdevelopment.
If you were to read the entire SH report, the answers to your question(s) would be present. File find "150" and also look at the photos which show demolition and condos replacing original homes.
I think the article would benefit more if you were to add substance: photos, stories, history, current events, citations, rather than by picking at pieces and deleting whole chunks. Be constructive, not destructive. Add a blurb about Christmas Lights or Parks or find another supporting documentation. Be like Matt Zeidenberg who made a nice, useful edit on the navigation. Or Rostdo who added section (and a photo) on the sunshine society’s blind school. Cjz208 ( talk) 17:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Over a period of two years various statements which appear to be at best synthesis have been placed in the article. Numerous discussions have failed to resolve the question of these comments being acceptable under Wikipedia guidelines. CitiCat ♫ 02:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 16:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
The information in this subsection is entirely useless and un-encyclopedic. Not another NYC neighborhood has this dreck (in a quick sample of ten+ in multiple boroughs I took to make sure I wasn't crazy). Just having a cite doesn't make it automatically appropriate to include. Schools are listed, places of worship as well, because those exist uniquely in and of the neighborhood, like its notable residents, parks, and landmarks. But saying NYPD and Brooklyn Public Library serve a neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York is so asinine and just clutters the page. If the precinct or branch or ladderhouse had its own page or was in any way significant, I could see its merit to include it. As it stands there is no reason Dyker Heights should be alone in the encyclopedia in having non-encyclopedic information on its page just because User:Alansohn wants it there without any rationale given or MOS to back it up. JesseRafe ( talk) 19:09, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
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tag to
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/entertainment/1998/11/29/1998-11-29_the_lights_before_christmas_.html{{
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http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/ny_local/1995/06/04/1995-06-04_highlight_of_dyker_heights.html{{
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@ Alansohn: WP:ONUS and WP:BURDEN apply. Please don’t keep reverting when you haven’t done what you need to do, its disruptive and doubly so when you don’t understand whats going on so you make wild accusations. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 20:47, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
To any editors who are not already directly involved in this discussion, should we include crime or health statistics? Should we go as far as removing police precincts and fire engines that serve the neighborhood? I propose removing minor details like petty crime, bodega count, or police precinct/fire station addresses, but the above concerns the removal of nearly all info about crime and health, even if the information has been there for two years. Note that I had added this information two years ago, but some of the details do not fall under WP:DUE. Epicgenius ( talk) 00:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)