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This comes from the article introduction:
This paragraph is in my opinion not very successfull in characterising the differences between Flemish and Dutch. As a flemish speaker and being familiar with the way Dutch is spoken in various areas in the Netherlands (except Friesland) I would say that in general the differences between Flemish and Dutch as spoken in the Netherlands boil down to this:
Flemish:
Dutch as spoken by native speakers in the Netherlands:
This list is not exclusive but it's my attempt to demonstrate we need to come up with a better way to describe the difference between Flemish and Netherlandic Dutch than roughly comparable to the differences between American and British English. 62.102.20.12 16:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Like I'm from Flanders, I would suggest that there is a difference between Dutch and Flemish, no yet as important as the difference between American and British, but already as important as between Mexican and Spanish or Brazilian and Portuguese.
The spelling is the same, most words are used in both 'states' (Flanders isn't a country yet) but the pronunciation differs somewhat and the expressions, the fixed propositions (after adjectives and nouns) and some words differ enough to same there is a standard difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.244.152.214 ( talk) 10:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
a standard pronunciation difference: nationaal Dutch [na:tsiona:l] versus Flemish[nasiona:l]
this applies to all international words with vowel + ti + vowel
some words:
Flemish stoof Dutch kachel (but kachel is understood in Flanders too) Flemish tas Dutch kopje Flemish corniche Dutch dakgoot
Pieter Jansegers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.244.152.214 ( talk) 11:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The article exagerates the number of people speaking Dutch. -- Gronky 16:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten a section, and my original source uses the wording "wat de streng gelovige Nederlanders zeer aansprak". I've translated "aanspreken" with "to like" but I have a feeling it's not entirely correct. But I can't find the "full" English translation of aanspreken .. anyone else got any ideas as how to translate? HP1740-B ( talk) 16:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I am a native Dutch speaker (from the Netherlands). When listening to the pronunciation in this audio, it somehow does not seem correct to me. It sounds like it was done by someone who speaks Dutch pretty fluently, but is not a native speaker. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't seem to me like any native Dutch speaker would ever pronounce "angstschreeuw" quite this way. But MAYBE that's just because the word is probably never used in actual speech without any passion. 97.103.81.29 ( talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Being a native speaker, I am surprised that someone should introduce "standard pronunciation" in exactly the area of pronouncing r. In the 12 years of my schooling, no one ever mentioned there was a right (or wrong, for that matter!) pronunciation of r and I doubt if there are official guidelines in this area. I would love to be surprised! Pronunciation in the Netherlands varies widely. Some pronunciations may be frowned upon, but thinking of examples, those would be vowels (like 'a', 'ei'/'ij' from the Amsterdam area, as sung by Ciskede Rat in "Krijg toch allemaal de kolere, val van mijn part allemaal dood"), rather than consonants. Tongue-r ( alveolar trill) or throat-r ( uvular trill) depends on location/area, as does the pronunciation of 'g' and 'ch'. It has nothing to do with dialects, that is an entirely different subject matter. The only debate I know about pronouncing r, is the one about the Gooise r ( nl:Gooise_r), that I will not comment on here...
My main reason for commenting, though: What about the translation? "Scream in fear" is given as translation for 'angstschreeuw'. It is hard to definitely judge that translation, but "scream in fear" sounds like a verb to me, whereas "angstschreeuw" is definitely a noun. Make it "scream of fear" if 'scream' and 'fear' are necessary. I would probably opt for "cry of terror". Marc1966 ( talk) 14:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry but it is very typical for Hollanders to think that their dialect is the correct form of Dutch, where the Limburgs accent (as well as Flemish, Frisian, etc.) are all just as correct. And a seperate accent used in Algemeen Nederlands has nothing to do with dialect, they are two different animals. But when I was growing up in Limburg a Hollandic accent sounded astoundingly funny to us kids at school, where we would say that Hollanders sounded mean and rude, and that that must be how the song "Advocaatje ging op Reis" came to be -Andreas Dolos
The number of unnecessary links is turning the article blue. Now, granted it might be nice to display a Dutch Delft Blue article. Given some time I will remove unnecessary links unless there is an objection-- Buster7 ( talk) 12:00, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Maybe this is the wrong place, but is there a single article (or list) about the off-definition meanings and uses of 'Dutch' in English, like in Dutch courage and Dutch wife. Could be added to the See also-section (so I'm on the right place after all). - DePiep ( talk) 10:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I am informed that American rather then British English pronounciation is that which is now being taught in Dutch schools. Certainly most student-age people I met recently spoke with a very pronounced US accent whereas older people did not. I am not aware of what spelling is taught.
IanWorthington 16:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
British English is most widely taught of the two, the European union considers British English the correct version of spelling and pronunciation, In other former colonies of Britain also use the British variation also. 86.186.3.245 ( talk) 17:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is almost completely unreferenced. Do something about it. Shinobu 18:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
infobox mentions dutch spoken in sweden. i only know 2 people who speak it here and know it has not much of an official presence... waht's the source ofthis claim? 77.116.230.85 19:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Same in France !! no one speaks dutch there!! weird .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.87.93.59 ( talk) 23:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The list of fourteen simple vowels and four diphthongs listed in this article seems to fall short in that it merely distinguishes between ʏ and øːand omits the intermediate ʏ : as in "deur", "geur" and "zeur". There is a marked distinction between the pronunciation of the diphtong in these words and the pronunciation of both the diphtong øːin "neus", "leut" and "deuk" and the vowel ʏ in "hut", "dus" and "bul". One also notices the absence of œ as in "huid", "uit" and "fuik", which is markedly different from the open œy in "ui", "lui" and "bui". I am hesitant to edit correspondingly since references do not generally appear to support this, but I do wonder what the general feeling about this is. -- Roger Pilgham ( talk) 08:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Other diphthongs: aren't these also diphthongs: aai (baai, haai), ooi (mooi, dooi), oei (roei, woei), eeuw (leeuw, sneeuw), ieuw (nieuw, kieuw), uw (duw, luw) ? 195.240.67.116 ( talk) 13:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
"Dutch is a stress language; the stress position of words matters. Stress can occur on any syllable position in a word." Besides the listed example (vóórkomen (occur) and voorkómen (prevent)), I can only think of one, even weaker (intended as word play by Marten Toonder) example "bommelding". I'm not a linguist but I guess a single example doesn't make a whole language a stress language. It's not like people who use Dutch as a second language make mistakes that completely change the meaning of a sentence like in Chinese. I would like a source saying it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joepnl ( talk • contribs) 03:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
The Limburg dialect of Dutch is according to this nl.wiki article. The word bein (leg or legs) can be be either singular or plural depending on pronouncation. The "voorkomen" example might be silly, but saying that at least one dialect is a stress language could be justified. We need a linguist for this I guess. Joepnl ( talk) 23:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC
No Limburgs is tonal not stress. I know, I am a native speaker. One syllable words will have their tones changes but switching syllabic stress has no effect. Stress is overwhelmingly often on the first syllable unless the word is of Romance (French or Latin) origin. Also, Limburgs is not Dutch! It is its own regional language with its own grammar, vocabulary, and writing system. :) Your use of Bein (leg) instead of been shows this clearly. ( talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.198.148 ( talk) 17:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Please reconsider the part on diminutives because it may be wrong. There is no citation whatsoever. Diminutives are not formed by the suffix -je, plural -jes but originally by the suffix -tje, plural -tjes. According to the Taalunie 'the rule' is that there are four suffixes: -je, -tje, -etje, and -pje. There are various rules regarding the change of these suffixes which are determined by length of the preceding vowel and stress. Please see Taalunie website or try any more trustable source. I can try to improve the article once I found a good source. Myterjov ( talk) 10:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
As also posted by me at nl:Overleg:Nederlands I would like to ask if there is any interest to create an article Regional accents of Dutch or Regional accents of Standard Dutch. Indeed, varieties of Dutch are touched upon by the Dutch dialects series, but do not cover the notion of regional accent (linguistics) / pronunciation of Standard Dutch speakers. For instance, I myself hail from the Dutch province of Limburg but I do not speak a the Limburgian dialect. The Standard Dutch I do use is however laden with a strong Limburgian, or even Maastrichtian, accent. In my personal opinion the difference between accent and dialect should be made more clear. Let me know what your thoughts are. Take care, LightPhoenix ( talk) 15:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC).
I would propose to limit the size of the phonology section, remove the example words etc. It is almost as large as the main article it refers to, and bound to be less up to date (I just corrected the "14 single vowels" to "13", which I had corrected in the phonology article years ago). Jalwikip ( talk) 10:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
User:PaddyBriggs, there is nothing "unusual" about the distinction between colloquial and written Dutch, and the differences are nowhere as great as is suggested by the examples you give. Any newspaper will write "vandaag" for "today", not "heden", which is a very archaic word that is only used in an extremely formal context nowadays. For a review of your source, see Taalunieversum, which shows that even the more recent version of this grammar (and not the one from 1977 you mention), with all due respect, is considered rather old-fashioned by today's native speakers of Dutch. Iblardi 16:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Dutch is very unusual in having this distinction. And my reference, which is from a non-Dutch source but perfectly acadamically robust, is s valid one. Tot ziens! PaddyBriggs 17:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm Dutch so I know. A newspaper today will write vandaag. You almost no one uses heden. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.10.75.131 (
talk)
10:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I added the entry for Dutch vs Deutsch as a misconception. Although it's now morphed into something where it states English users aren't generally confused, it's one of the most common questions I get (being Dutch and living in the U.S). Many folks do not understand the difference between Dutch & Deutsch and often ask for further clarification. Not to even go into the fact the Dutch and the Danes are the same thing either. I suggest this should be captured as part of the paragraph, but want to ensure I'm following some guidelines and have agreement (as a newbie here). 19:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Malbers
I must say that being dutch in America I am confused for German 99% of the time, and then when I say am Dutch, I always here back Sprechen Sie Deutsch?'. Though there is no source to cite for this, all dutch in North America can relate the the before mentioned. I have been in the USA since 2007 for Uni, and if I had 10cents for each time I was called german! ivogöllepe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.252.90 ( talk) 16:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Dutch being a german dialect name for Deutsch,
No no! Deutsch is the German word for the German language. I'm Dutch, so I know it for sure. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.10.75.131 (
talk)
11:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The infobox currently says that the name of the language is pronounced [ˈne:dərlɑnts]. However, the R in 'auslaut' (placed after the vowel in a syllable) is pronounced ɹ in the Randstad and some parts of Zeeland and Utrecht, ʁ in Brabant/ Limburg, R in the rest of the Netherlands (primarily the north and east) and as a lengthened r in Flanders. What to do? Mel sa ran 14:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a well-known Second World War anecdote in which the name of Dutch town Scheveningen was used as a Shibboleth by the Dutch Resistance, as there is also no phonetic counterpart in German. Native German speakers will pronounce the consonant cluster sch in Scheveningen as /ʃ/ (as in the English word short), while Dutch native speakers will pronounce it as /sx/. This linguistic difference provided an excellent thumb instrument to uncover German spies in the ranks of the Dutch resistance.
This is nonsense. There is /x/ in German. Germans who don't know dutch probably will read that name with /ʃ/, but I doubt that spies or anyone with good knowlege of dutch wouldn't be able to read it correctly. See German_orthography#Grapheme-to-phoneme_correspondences and Dutch_orthography#Basic_graphemes-- 88.101.76.122 12:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Easy, being raised in a bilingual German / Dutch household I can tell you that ein Bißchen (a little) is not pronounced ein Biʃen, but ein Bi/sx/en. I've always thought this to be an urban legend, but some of the more ignorant Dutch in the north would arrest Limburgers assuming they were speaking German and labeled it a "vijandige taal" (enemy language) - Fritz Schröders —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.131.57.62 ( talk) 11:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Maybe that the problem is that /x/ is not a separate phoneme in German, but just an allophone of /ç/ after back vowels. I used to have problems pronouncing /ŋ/ not followed by k or g. So I guess that German people have similar problem to pronounce /x/ not preceded by a back vowel. So, maybe German people say /sç/ and /sç/ sounds to Dutch people like /ʃ/?--
88.101.76.122
15:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not really happy with the map.
I think this way the map represents a good overview of where Dutch (and Afrikaans) is spoken. Unfortunately, I lack the software and the skills to edit the map myself, so if someone could do that, that would be fantastic. Cheers, -- Hooiwind ( talk) 12:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Since the Dutch introduced Western law to Indonesia, the Dutch language is officially used during legal matters next to the Indonesian language. Also many jurists are required to know Dutch.
When I read the link
http://www.wetenschapsagenda.leidenuniv.nl/index.php3?c=22 which is ought to state the above claims, I cannot find anywhere that Dutch is still officially used in Indonesian courts nor that contemporary jurists are still required to know the language. It only says that some Indonesian jurists feel unsatisfied with the refinement of Indonesian law texts, and that some documents were never translated from Dutch to Indonesian but that those "have been obscured". Moreover, I doubt the authority of this link, since it is nothing more than a summary of a master thesis at Leiden University.--
Hooiwind (
talk)
12:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, first off why do you think the university of Leiden has no authority? Just because it is a summary or something? That's nonsense.
I really would like to know why an university which is well, the best in languages in the Netherlands, has no authority to you. Mallerd ( talk) 11:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Original research yes, but it doesn't make it untrue. Believe me, I am trying to find sources but in lack of any it is not very credible I guess. Google books has limited books on this, several are not available etc. Anyway I guess it's time to move on I just tried to tell the readers something. Mallerd ( talk) 19:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I was not referring to you Hooiwind, I know you are Dutch/Flemish. It doesn't matter if you didn't understand my point. Mallerd ( talk) 18:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I was not referring to an actual person in this discussion. My point was that if something is so obvious in a culture, people of that culture don't bother check if it's actually verifiable. Sure, if something is that obvious there would be a source about it somewhere. But I don't see a reference tag on this sentence and many alike: " London ( pronunciation (help·info); IPA: /ˈlʌndən/) is the capital and largest urban area of both England and the United Kingdom.". This is not bad, because it is very obvious to anglophone people. I am not saying that if you don't speak English, you can't know it but it's harder to search for "reliable" sources. Even acceptance of sources on wikipedia is harder if you don't use English ones. However, it becomes more annoying when it comes to facts that are not part of the anglophone world. Say, the city of Rome: "Rome (pronounced /roʊm/; Italian: Roma, pronounced [ˈroma]; Latin: Roma) is the capital city of Italy and Lazio,[2]". For some reason, the obvious suddenly has to be verified and referenced. All fun and nice (leuk en aardig) those rules, but it's really stupid having to justify yourself against an anglophone majority, while that majority is inconsequent regarding their own. I don't know if those last few sentences were correct English, but I hope you understand my point now. I personally feel that these digital encyclopedias are better of when transferring and translating every single article including the tiny and seemingly unworthy to eachother, because then you cover the most "facts" from across the world. Mallerd ( talk) 17:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I have accepted (1), but it is downright stupid to say "That is the consequence of writing in English Wikipedia". Is it not just an encyclopedia that is written in the English language? The great advantage of the internet is the possibility for many different people with different cultures to participate. What you are basically saying is that the English wikipedia is for people who speak English as their mothertongue and people who speak English as a secondary language can join too, but only
you know what, never mind. Mallerd ( talk) 18:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps less is more and more is less in an encyclopedia. Since relying too much on references can leave out "facts", noteworthy to one or not to another, and any source about 1 subject added more in an article has less value in comparison to the other sources. Anyway, knowing that it cannot be perfect should not mean we should not try to build it. Have you ever read a religious text? If you have, you might know that the situation of "redemption", "nirvana" or "walhalla" are perfect and are strifed for. Some say they have reached this perfect state of being. Why not give it a shot? As they say in the Netherlands: "Een betere wereld begint bij jezelf." - A better world starts with yourself." If you don't agree, it sounds as defeatism. Mallerd ( talk) 20:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I know you feel that it is not obvious, but in my experience a certain level of trust in people also keeps away a lot of unnecessary stress. Or do you not believe anything you see and hear about war zones? On wikipedia those are articles as well, with references. Are those references unreliable and one-sided? I don't know, you tell me. I believe a crying civilian who says she has just lost her entire family during a bombing raid, even without seeing the dead bodies. Or is that obvious? I hope you think wikipedia is not worth fighting for, it will hurt more people than it helps by preserving it. Mallerd ( talk) 18:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
In the section about word order, it says:
Subclause: "omdat het veel te donker is" The verb or verbs always go in the final position.
It does not always go in the final position, as I could also write "want het is veel te donker."
85.24.188.86 ( talk) 09:39, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Your info box is interesting in that it doesn't include New Zealand as a country where Dutch is spoken. As far as i'm aware, until recently Dutch was the second most spoken language in NZ after English. Only recently has it been overtaken in second place by NZ's native language Maori. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 08:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Why cannot I find anywhere on Wikipedia a mention of the pronunciation (nowadays very common especially among young people) known as "Polder Dutch"? It means that the diphthongs spelled as ij, ou and ui are pronounced more open, like [aɪ], [aʊ] and [ɑʏ] or even [ɔʊ]. Sociolinguistically, the phenomenon is also interesting because it is apparently of recent origin (perhaps as late as the 1970s) and occurred first in middle-aged, urban and ambitious women.
By the way, a young lady from Folkestone, Kent (who learned Finnish as a hobby) told me a few years ago that she had heard very old people in Kent pronounce house like what she would spell höys in Finnish, i. e. [hœʏs]. This would confirm what has been claimed in an older discussion that is now archived, namely that there are indeed English dialects where house is pronounced essentially like Dutch huis. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The introduction of the article speaks about the "the relative rarity of the Germanic umlaut". Now, the is not entirely wrong, but it's not right either. We do not have the Germanic umlaut at all. We do use the same diacritic in a different role (calling it a trema rather than an umlaut.
The idea is that the umlaut changes a vowel into another vowel. The trema (as used in Dutch) separates a diphthong, keeping it as two vowels where without it, it would have been one.
I did not correct the sentence as I don't know just how to correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.218.33 ( talk) 14:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
As an American who is quite familiar with German and considerably less so with Dutch, my perception is that Dutch uses far fewer true umlauts in the phonological sense. That is, German has many more words in which umlaut serves as the marker for the plural of a noun or for certain parts of a verb conjugation. On the other hand, Dutch seems to use sounds like /œ/ (German "ö") and /ʏ/ (German "ü") considerably more than German, for a very simple reason: in Dutch, these sounds form part of many more words' uninflected roots, while in German it's frequently only the inflected forms of a word that carry the umlaut (e.g. German mochten/möchten ("like"/"would like"). Pithecanthropus ( talk) 22:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi, while I do understand your point I just wanted to correct you on the mochten/möchten. möchten ("would like") is the Konjunktiv II of mögen ("like"). mochten (they/we "liked") is Präteritum 1. and 3. person plural of mögen. And as a German I can't really think of many verbs that change into Umlaut when inflected (the ones that do, only do so in Konjunktiv II as far as I can tell). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.237.172 ( talk) 13:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
This comparison between Dutch and English is not correct - Dutch has a much larger and more developed Germanic vocabulary than English currently has. Words like "comparison", "developed", "core", "vocabulary", "difference", "sentence", "reliable", "source" and "remove" for example are respectively the Germanic "vergelijking", "ontwikkelen", "kern", "woordenschat", "verschil", "zin","betrouwbaar", "bron" and "verwijderen". in Dutch. Also, I am quite certain (knowing both Dutch and German) that there is not a significant difference in Roman loanwords between Dutch and German. Could anyone back these sentences up by some reliable online sources? Or else, remove them. Morgengave ( talk) 21:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, that's my fault, the word "considerable" slipped in. I think the current wording is perfect.-- Hooiwind ( talk) 13:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Often, it happens that there's more than one word for a thing: Much words in Dutch do also exist in German and vice-versa: Dutch oorlog and German Krieg, but there's also Dutch krijg and German Urlug (though rarely used). Seldomly, the Dutchmen prefer Germanic and the Germans international one... Compare Germanic-stemmed Dutch denkbeeld and schouwburg (but idee and theater is also possible) to German Idee and Theater (but Denkbild and Schauburg are also known).
-- user:Cristiano_16, 26.08.2012 —Preceding undated comment added 12:45, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
The Dialect in Groningen should be called Gronings and not East-Frisian. Frisian is a dialect that is spoken in the Friesland province and some other places, but it is not an equivalent of Gronings. Gronings is a lower-saxon dialect. Lower-saxon dialects (a.o. Gronings, Drents, Twents) are spoken in the Northern East region of NL and a large part of Germany. Frisian is spoken mainly in the Friesland province which lies in the north-west and is not a lower-saxon dialect. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nedersaksiese_taalgebied.png
So please correct this.
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evil1980 ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The dialect spoken in the province to the east of the province of Frisia, the Province of Groningen is called Gronings. It is a lower Saxon dialect and not Frisian. (See Gronings.) In neighbouring Germany however there is a historic county called East Frisia. In that county a lower Saxon dialect very similar to Gronings is spoken. It is called East Frisian. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 15:02, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
The current table shows only the old genitive forms, but of these only the plural 'der' is commonly used outside set phrases and the like, and even then it is very old-fashioned. As for the other inflected forms, they are no less common in set phrases than the old genitives. I think it would be better to either remove the table altogether, or to add the other old forms as well, and use some marking to indicate which ones are only used in set phrases and which ones are still occasionally used in archaistic language. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 10:21, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
"while historical minorities remain in parts of France and Germany, and to a lesser extent, in Indonesia, ..."(first paragraph). The existence of a dialect continuum (footnote 1) doesn't mean that there's a "historical minority" in the neighbouring German region. The Low Franconian and Low Saxon dialects spoken in the adjacent parts of Germany are quite close to Dutch and have often been regarded as "Dutch dialects", but the regions have never been part of the Netherlands (with the exception of few villages). Germany isn't mentioned in the "Geographical Distribution" section at all; otherwise, every German region where a potential "Dutch" dialect is or has been spoken would have to be listed. Johnny2323 ( talk) 03:41, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The 'trots op het moedertaal' source, cited from 3 locations in the article, is not suitable for quoting here. It says that 96% *of survey respondents* say that Dutch is their mother tongue. Did they survey only Dutch speakers? It doesn't actually say one way or the other but my suspicion is yes.
Have some original research:
That, right there, is more than 5% of the population being non-native speakers, and I've not remotely covered the whole population.-- Froggienation ( talk) 14:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Now that ʔ and ɡ feature in the table, and ʃ is mentioned as being a frequent realization of /s/ + /j/ sequences, I propose to add frequent realizations of /t/ + /j/ and /k/ + /j/ to the table showing parts of the Dutch consonant system as well. I am in doubt though about what IPA signs ought to be used. Maybe ȶ or ʨ, and c, respectively? Redav ( talk) 13:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I move to strike the following passage:
'The characters 'Ç', 'ç', 'Ñ' or 'ñ' can also be found in the Dutch language but the words which contain one of these characters are loanwords too and these words are inherited from Spain and Portugal. They don't occur very often.'
...because 1) its message is implied by the previous sentence: 'Other diacritical marks such as the circumflex only occur in a few words, most of them loanwords from French', which rather says it all; 2) its 'wording' is rather clumsy ('words... loanwords... words'; 'inherited from Spain and Portugal' instead of 'borrowed from Portuguese and Spanish, respectively'); 3) it contains errors: there are certainly no loanwords in Dutch from Portuguese which contain capital Ç (in Portuguese itself, Ç and ç never occur word-initially); in the same vein, I am quite sure there are no loanwords in Dutch from Spanish containing Ñ (or beginning with ñ). The only use for capitals Ç and Ñ is in all-capital (e.g. newspaper) expression (CURAÇAO, EL NIÑO), which is a world-wide shouting rather than Dutch writing system. Collideascope ( talk) 19:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
These two pages should clearly contain the same information. How is this synchronised? CodeCat ( talk) 11:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I propose to remove the citation from the Vorstermansbijbel:
'want si waren onder veel teghen mi' means 'because they were amongst many against me'.
This is a different meaning from all other citations (which all read, essentially, 'because amongst many, he was with me'). Even if the Vorsterman translation (from the Vulgata) would in any way be arguably correct, it distracts from the linguistic comparison that is being made here.
Also, it looks like the Vorsterman citation has been inserted later and rather willy-nilly, without any consideration of context, as it spoils the flow and contents of the surrounding text. Collideascope ( talk) 19:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the Vorstermansbijbel citation. Collideascope ( talk) 18:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I think the word order of the interrogative main clause should be mentioned, as it (at least in its simplest form) constitutes an exception to both the SOV and V2 word orders as described. If this view is supported I could edit this myself but I'll gladly leave it to the original editor of 'Word order'; or, indeed, to anyone else who feels the need. Collideascope ( talk) 18:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC) Added word order in interrogative clauses. Collideascope ( talk) 20:34, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Currently South Africa is listed as a country where Dutch is spoken, with a parenthetical explanation that it is spoken "as Afrikaans". Is that really appropriate? I don't think we list other closely related languages this way. Since Afrikaans is officially and linguistically a separate language now I feel like this entry should be removed. Opinions? Dusty| 💬| You can help! 16:28, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes "Netherlandish" is proposed as a more proper word in English to refer to "Dutch", because of the confusion this word creates, not only amongst English native speakers, but also amongst everybody learning about the Dutch language through English as a second language, thus propagating this confusion (between "Dutch" and "Deutsch", mainly) worldwide. Maybe it would be an idea to include a heading about this alternative term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joekiedoe ( talk • contribs) 23:26, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Would it be possible for a keen-eyed English speaker who's good at making connections to learn Dutch as if it were English rather than from scratch like a foreign language? In the sense of how in uni, people read Chaucer in Middle English but with a glossary at the bottom but it's close enough that someone can pick it up and read it like modern English "naturally" with just a little help without having to learn it from scratch the way one would a more distant language such as Spanish or Japanese. What I wonder is if someone who had no difficulty reading Chaucer and making the mental connections without having to "learn" it as a separate language could possibly read Dutch as if it were English with a glossary at the bottom and understand it and even learn it without learning it as a completely separate unrelated language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.63.43 ( talk) 15:38, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
In the table in the Diachronic paragraph I read of "Early Limburgish Middle Dutch" and "Late Limburgish Middle Dutch". I suppose "Early Middle Limburgish" and "Late Middle Limburgish" were meant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redav ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
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This comes from the article introduction:
This paragraph is in my opinion not very successfull in characterising the differences between Flemish and Dutch. As a flemish speaker and being familiar with the way Dutch is spoken in various areas in the Netherlands (except Friesland) I would say that in general the differences between Flemish and Dutch as spoken in the Netherlands boil down to this:
Flemish:
Dutch as spoken by native speakers in the Netherlands:
This list is not exclusive but it's my attempt to demonstrate we need to come up with a better way to describe the difference between Flemish and Netherlandic Dutch than roughly comparable to the differences between American and British English. 62.102.20.12 16:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Like I'm from Flanders, I would suggest that there is a difference between Dutch and Flemish, no yet as important as the difference between American and British, but already as important as between Mexican and Spanish or Brazilian and Portuguese.
The spelling is the same, most words are used in both 'states' (Flanders isn't a country yet) but the pronunciation differs somewhat and the expressions, the fixed propositions (after adjectives and nouns) and some words differ enough to same there is a standard difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.244.152.214 ( talk) 10:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
a standard pronunciation difference: nationaal Dutch [na:tsiona:l] versus Flemish[nasiona:l]
this applies to all international words with vowel + ti + vowel
some words:
Flemish stoof Dutch kachel (but kachel is understood in Flanders too) Flemish tas Dutch kopje Flemish corniche Dutch dakgoot
Pieter Jansegers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.244.152.214 ( talk) 11:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The article exagerates the number of people speaking Dutch. -- Gronky 16:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten a section, and my original source uses the wording "wat de streng gelovige Nederlanders zeer aansprak". I've translated "aanspreken" with "to like" but I have a feeling it's not entirely correct. But I can't find the "full" English translation of aanspreken .. anyone else got any ideas as how to translate? HP1740-B ( talk) 16:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I am a native Dutch speaker (from the Netherlands). When listening to the pronunciation in this audio, it somehow does not seem correct to me. It sounds like it was done by someone who speaks Dutch pretty fluently, but is not a native speaker. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't seem to me like any native Dutch speaker would ever pronounce "angstschreeuw" quite this way. But MAYBE that's just because the word is probably never used in actual speech without any passion. 97.103.81.29 ( talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Being a native speaker, I am surprised that someone should introduce "standard pronunciation" in exactly the area of pronouncing r. In the 12 years of my schooling, no one ever mentioned there was a right (or wrong, for that matter!) pronunciation of r and I doubt if there are official guidelines in this area. I would love to be surprised! Pronunciation in the Netherlands varies widely. Some pronunciations may be frowned upon, but thinking of examples, those would be vowels (like 'a', 'ei'/'ij' from the Amsterdam area, as sung by Ciskede Rat in "Krijg toch allemaal de kolere, val van mijn part allemaal dood"), rather than consonants. Tongue-r ( alveolar trill) or throat-r ( uvular trill) depends on location/area, as does the pronunciation of 'g' and 'ch'. It has nothing to do with dialects, that is an entirely different subject matter. The only debate I know about pronouncing r, is the one about the Gooise r ( nl:Gooise_r), that I will not comment on here...
My main reason for commenting, though: What about the translation? "Scream in fear" is given as translation for 'angstschreeuw'. It is hard to definitely judge that translation, but "scream in fear" sounds like a verb to me, whereas "angstschreeuw" is definitely a noun. Make it "scream of fear" if 'scream' and 'fear' are necessary. I would probably opt for "cry of terror". Marc1966 ( talk) 14:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry but it is very typical for Hollanders to think that their dialect is the correct form of Dutch, where the Limburgs accent (as well as Flemish, Frisian, etc.) are all just as correct. And a seperate accent used in Algemeen Nederlands has nothing to do with dialect, they are two different animals. But when I was growing up in Limburg a Hollandic accent sounded astoundingly funny to us kids at school, where we would say that Hollanders sounded mean and rude, and that that must be how the song "Advocaatje ging op Reis" came to be -Andreas Dolos
The number of unnecessary links is turning the article blue. Now, granted it might be nice to display a Dutch Delft Blue article. Given some time I will remove unnecessary links unless there is an objection-- Buster7 ( talk) 12:00, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Maybe this is the wrong place, but is there a single article (or list) about the off-definition meanings and uses of 'Dutch' in English, like in Dutch courage and Dutch wife. Could be added to the See also-section (so I'm on the right place after all). - DePiep ( talk) 10:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I am informed that American rather then British English pronounciation is that which is now being taught in Dutch schools. Certainly most student-age people I met recently spoke with a very pronounced US accent whereas older people did not. I am not aware of what spelling is taught.
IanWorthington 16:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
British English is most widely taught of the two, the European union considers British English the correct version of spelling and pronunciation, In other former colonies of Britain also use the British variation also. 86.186.3.245 ( talk) 17:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is almost completely unreferenced. Do something about it. Shinobu 18:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
infobox mentions dutch spoken in sweden. i only know 2 people who speak it here and know it has not much of an official presence... waht's the source ofthis claim? 77.116.230.85 19:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Same in France !! no one speaks dutch there!! weird .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.87.93.59 ( talk) 23:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The list of fourteen simple vowels and four diphthongs listed in this article seems to fall short in that it merely distinguishes between ʏ and øːand omits the intermediate ʏ : as in "deur", "geur" and "zeur". There is a marked distinction between the pronunciation of the diphtong in these words and the pronunciation of both the diphtong øːin "neus", "leut" and "deuk" and the vowel ʏ in "hut", "dus" and "bul". One also notices the absence of œ as in "huid", "uit" and "fuik", which is markedly different from the open œy in "ui", "lui" and "bui". I am hesitant to edit correspondingly since references do not generally appear to support this, but I do wonder what the general feeling about this is. -- Roger Pilgham ( talk) 08:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Other diphthongs: aren't these also diphthongs: aai (baai, haai), ooi (mooi, dooi), oei (roei, woei), eeuw (leeuw, sneeuw), ieuw (nieuw, kieuw), uw (duw, luw) ? 195.240.67.116 ( talk) 13:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
"Dutch is a stress language; the stress position of words matters. Stress can occur on any syllable position in a word." Besides the listed example (vóórkomen (occur) and voorkómen (prevent)), I can only think of one, even weaker (intended as word play by Marten Toonder) example "bommelding". I'm not a linguist but I guess a single example doesn't make a whole language a stress language. It's not like people who use Dutch as a second language make mistakes that completely change the meaning of a sentence like in Chinese. I would like a source saying it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joepnl ( talk • contribs) 03:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
The Limburg dialect of Dutch is according to this nl.wiki article. The word bein (leg or legs) can be be either singular or plural depending on pronouncation. The "voorkomen" example might be silly, but saying that at least one dialect is a stress language could be justified. We need a linguist for this I guess. Joepnl ( talk) 23:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC
No Limburgs is tonal not stress. I know, I am a native speaker. One syllable words will have their tones changes but switching syllabic stress has no effect. Stress is overwhelmingly often on the first syllable unless the word is of Romance (French or Latin) origin. Also, Limburgs is not Dutch! It is its own regional language with its own grammar, vocabulary, and writing system. :) Your use of Bein (leg) instead of been shows this clearly. ( talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.198.148 ( talk) 17:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Please reconsider the part on diminutives because it may be wrong. There is no citation whatsoever. Diminutives are not formed by the suffix -je, plural -jes but originally by the suffix -tje, plural -tjes. According to the Taalunie 'the rule' is that there are four suffixes: -je, -tje, -etje, and -pje. There are various rules regarding the change of these suffixes which are determined by length of the preceding vowel and stress. Please see Taalunie website or try any more trustable source. I can try to improve the article once I found a good source. Myterjov ( talk) 10:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
As also posted by me at nl:Overleg:Nederlands I would like to ask if there is any interest to create an article Regional accents of Dutch or Regional accents of Standard Dutch. Indeed, varieties of Dutch are touched upon by the Dutch dialects series, but do not cover the notion of regional accent (linguistics) / pronunciation of Standard Dutch speakers. For instance, I myself hail from the Dutch province of Limburg but I do not speak a the Limburgian dialect. The Standard Dutch I do use is however laden with a strong Limburgian, or even Maastrichtian, accent. In my personal opinion the difference between accent and dialect should be made more clear. Let me know what your thoughts are. Take care, LightPhoenix ( talk) 15:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC).
I would propose to limit the size of the phonology section, remove the example words etc. It is almost as large as the main article it refers to, and bound to be less up to date (I just corrected the "14 single vowels" to "13", which I had corrected in the phonology article years ago). Jalwikip ( talk) 10:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
User:PaddyBriggs, there is nothing "unusual" about the distinction between colloquial and written Dutch, and the differences are nowhere as great as is suggested by the examples you give. Any newspaper will write "vandaag" for "today", not "heden", which is a very archaic word that is only used in an extremely formal context nowadays. For a review of your source, see Taalunieversum, which shows that even the more recent version of this grammar (and not the one from 1977 you mention), with all due respect, is considered rather old-fashioned by today's native speakers of Dutch. Iblardi 16:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Dutch is very unusual in having this distinction. And my reference, which is from a non-Dutch source but perfectly acadamically robust, is s valid one. Tot ziens! PaddyBriggs 17:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm Dutch so I know. A newspaper today will write vandaag. You almost no one uses heden. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.10.75.131 (
talk)
10:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I added the entry for Dutch vs Deutsch as a misconception. Although it's now morphed into something where it states English users aren't generally confused, it's one of the most common questions I get (being Dutch and living in the U.S). Many folks do not understand the difference between Dutch & Deutsch and often ask for further clarification. Not to even go into the fact the Dutch and the Danes are the same thing either. I suggest this should be captured as part of the paragraph, but want to ensure I'm following some guidelines and have agreement (as a newbie here). 19:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Malbers
I must say that being dutch in America I am confused for German 99% of the time, and then when I say am Dutch, I always here back Sprechen Sie Deutsch?'. Though there is no source to cite for this, all dutch in North America can relate the the before mentioned. I have been in the USA since 2007 for Uni, and if I had 10cents for each time I was called german! ivogöllepe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.252.90 ( talk) 16:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Dutch being a german dialect name for Deutsch,
No no! Deutsch is the German word for the German language. I'm Dutch, so I know it for sure. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.10.75.131 (
talk)
11:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The infobox currently says that the name of the language is pronounced [ˈne:dərlɑnts]. However, the R in 'auslaut' (placed after the vowel in a syllable) is pronounced ɹ in the Randstad and some parts of Zeeland and Utrecht, ʁ in Brabant/ Limburg, R in the rest of the Netherlands (primarily the north and east) and as a lengthened r in Flanders. What to do? Mel sa ran 14:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a well-known Second World War anecdote in which the name of Dutch town Scheveningen was used as a Shibboleth by the Dutch Resistance, as there is also no phonetic counterpart in German. Native German speakers will pronounce the consonant cluster sch in Scheveningen as /ʃ/ (as in the English word short), while Dutch native speakers will pronounce it as /sx/. This linguistic difference provided an excellent thumb instrument to uncover German spies in the ranks of the Dutch resistance.
This is nonsense. There is /x/ in German. Germans who don't know dutch probably will read that name with /ʃ/, but I doubt that spies or anyone with good knowlege of dutch wouldn't be able to read it correctly. See German_orthography#Grapheme-to-phoneme_correspondences and Dutch_orthography#Basic_graphemes-- 88.101.76.122 12:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Easy, being raised in a bilingual German / Dutch household I can tell you that ein Bißchen (a little) is not pronounced ein Biʃen, but ein Bi/sx/en. I've always thought this to be an urban legend, but some of the more ignorant Dutch in the north would arrest Limburgers assuming they were speaking German and labeled it a "vijandige taal" (enemy language) - Fritz Schröders —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.131.57.62 ( talk) 11:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Maybe that the problem is that /x/ is not a separate phoneme in German, but just an allophone of /ç/ after back vowels. I used to have problems pronouncing /ŋ/ not followed by k or g. So I guess that German people have similar problem to pronounce /x/ not preceded by a back vowel. So, maybe German people say /sç/ and /sç/ sounds to Dutch people like /ʃ/?--
88.101.76.122
15:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not really happy with the map.
I think this way the map represents a good overview of where Dutch (and Afrikaans) is spoken. Unfortunately, I lack the software and the skills to edit the map myself, so if someone could do that, that would be fantastic. Cheers, -- Hooiwind ( talk) 12:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Since the Dutch introduced Western law to Indonesia, the Dutch language is officially used during legal matters next to the Indonesian language. Also many jurists are required to know Dutch.
When I read the link
http://www.wetenschapsagenda.leidenuniv.nl/index.php3?c=22 which is ought to state the above claims, I cannot find anywhere that Dutch is still officially used in Indonesian courts nor that contemporary jurists are still required to know the language. It only says that some Indonesian jurists feel unsatisfied with the refinement of Indonesian law texts, and that some documents were never translated from Dutch to Indonesian but that those "have been obscured". Moreover, I doubt the authority of this link, since it is nothing more than a summary of a master thesis at Leiden University.--
Hooiwind (
talk)
12:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, first off why do you think the university of Leiden has no authority? Just because it is a summary or something? That's nonsense.
I really would like to know why an university which is well, the best in languages in the Netherlands, has no authority to you. Mallerd ( talk) 11:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Original research yes, but it doesn't make it untrue. Believe me, I am trying to find sources but in lack of any it is not very credible I guess. Google books has limited books on this, several are not available etc. Anyway I guess it's time to move on I just tried to tell the readers something. Mallerd ( talk) 19:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I was not referring to you Hooiwind, I know you are Dutch/Flemish. It doesn't matter if you didn't understand my point. Mallerd ( talk) 18:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I was not referring to an actual person in this discussion. My point was that if something is so obvious in a culture, people of that culture don't bother check if it's actually verifiable. Sure, if something is that obvious there would be a source about it somewhere. But I don't see a reference tag on this sentence and many alike: " London ( pronunciation (help·info); IPA: /ˈlʌndən/) is the capital and largest urban area of both England and the United Kingdom.". This is not bad, because it is very obvious to anglophone people. I am not saying that if you don't speak English, you can't know it but it's harder to search for "reliable" sources. Even acceptance of sources on wikipedia is harder if you don't use English ones. However, it becomes more annoying when it comes to facts that are not part of the anglophone world. Say, the city of Rome: "Rome (pronounced /roʊm/; Italian: Roma, pronounced [ˈroma]; Latin: Roma) is the capital city of Italy and Lazio,[2]". For some reason, the obvious suddenly has to be verified and referenced. All fun and nice (leuk en aardig) those rules, but it's really stupid having to justify yourself against an anglophone majority, while that majority is inconsequent regarding their own. I don't know if those last few sentences were correct English, but I hope you understand my point now. I personally feel that these digital encyclopedias are better of when transferring and translating every single article including the tiny and seemingly unworthy to eachother, because then you cover the most "facts" from across the world. Mallerd ( talk) 17:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I have accepted (1), but it is downright stupid to say "That is the consequence of writing in English Wikipedia". Is it not just an encyclopedia that is written in the English language? The great advantage of the internet is the possibility for many different people with different cultures to participate. What you are basically saying is that the English wikipedia is for people who speak English as their mothertongue and people who speak English as a secondary language can join too, but only
you know what, never mind. Mallerd ( talk) 18:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps less is more and more is less in an encyclopedia. Since relying too much on references can leave out "facts", noteworthy to one or not to another, and any source about 1 subject added more in an article has less value in comparison to the other sources. Anyway, knowing that it cannot be perfect should not mean we should not try to build it. Have you ever read a religious text? If you have, you might know that the situation of "redemption", "nirvana" or "walhalla" are perfect and are strifed for. Some say they have reached this perfect state of being. Why not give it a shot? As they say in the Netherlands: "Een betere wereld begint bij jezelf." - A better world starts with yourself." If you don't agree, it sounds as defeatism. Mallerd ( talk) 20:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I know you feel that it is not obvious, but in my experience a certain level of trust in people also keeps away a lot of unnecessary stress. Or do you not believe anything you see and hear about war zones? On wikipedia those are articles as well, with references. Are those references unreliable and one-sided? I don't know, you tell me. I believe a crying civilian who says she has just lost her entire family during a bombing raid, even without seeing the dead bodies. Or is that obvious? I hope you think wikipedia is not worth fighting for, it will hurt more people than it helps by preserving it. Mallerd ( talk) 18:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
In the section about word order, it says:
Subclause: "omdat het veel te donker is" The verb or verbs always go in the final position.
It does not always go in the final position, as I could also write "want het is veel te donker."
85.24.188.86 ( talk) 09:39, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Your info box is interesting in that it doesn't include New Zealand as a country where Dutch is spoken. As far as i'm aware, until recently Dutch was the second most spoken language in NZ after English. Only recently has it been overtaken in second place by NZ's native language Maori. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 08:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Why cannot I find anywhere on Wikipedia a mention of the pronunciation (nowadays very common especially among young people) known as "Polder Dutch"? It means that the diphthongs spelled as ij, ou and ui are pronounced more open, like [aɪ], [aʊ] and [ɑʏ] or even [ɔʊ]. Sociolinguistically, the phenomenon is also interesting because it is apparently of recent origin (perhaps as late as the 1970s) and occurred first in middle-aged, urban and ambitious women.
By the way, a young lady from Folkestone, Kent (who learned Finnish as a hobby) told me a few years ago that she had heard very old people in Kent pronounce house like what she would spell höys in Finnish, i. e. [hœʏs]. This would confirm what has been claimed in an older discussion that is now archived, namely that there are indeed English dialects where house is pronounced essentially like Dutch huis. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The introduction of the article speaks about the "the relative rarity of the Germanic umlaut". Now, the is not entirely wrong, but it's not right either. We do not have the Germanic umlaut at all. We do use the same diacritic in a different role (calling it a trema rather than an umlaut.
The idea is that the umlaut changes a vowel into another vowel. The trema (as used in Dutch) separates a diphthong, keeping it as two vowels where without it, it would have been one.
I did not correct the sentence as I don't know just how to correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.218.33 ( talk) 14:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
As an American who is quite familiar with German and considerably less so with Dutch, my perception is that Dutch uses far fewer true umlauts in the phonological sense. That is, German has many more words in which umlaut serves as the marker for the plural of a noun or for certain parts of a verb conjugation. On the other hand, Dutch seems to use sounds like /œ/ (German "ö") and /ʏ/ (German "ü") considerably more than German, for a very simple reason: in Dutch, these sounds form part of many more words' uninflected roots, while in German it's frequently only the inflected forms of a word that carry the umlaut (e.g. German mochten/möchten ("like"/"would like"). Pithecanthropus ( talk) 22:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi, while I do understand your point I just wanted to correct you on the mochten/möchten. möchten ("would like") is the Konjunktiv II of mögen ("like"). mochten (they/we "liked") is Präteritum 1. and 3. person plural of mögen. And as a German I can't really think of many verbs that change into Umlaut when inflected (the ones that do, only do so in Konjunktiv II as far as I can tell). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.237.172 ( talk) 13:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
This comparison between Dutch and English is not correct - Dutch has a much larger and more developed Germanic vocabulary than English currently has. Words like "comparison", "developed", "core", "vocabulary", "difference", "sentence", "reliable", "source" and "remove" for example are respectively the Germanic "vergelijking", "ontwikkelen", "kern", "woordenschat", "verschil", "zin","betrouwbaar", "bron" and "verwijderen". in Dutch. Also, I am quite certain (knowing both Dutch and German) that there is not a significant difference in Roman loanwords between Dutch and German. Could anyone back these sentences up by some reliable online sources? Or else, remove them. Morgengave ( talk) 21:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, that's my fault, the word "considerable" slipped in. I think the current wording is perfect.-- Hooiwind ( talk) 13:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Often, it happens that there's more than one word for a thing: Much words in Dutch do also exist in German and vice-versa: Dutch oorlog and German Krieg, but there's also Dutch krijg and German Urlug (though rarely used). Seldomly, the Dutchmen prefer Germanic and the Germans international one... Compare Germanic-stemmed Dutch denkbeeld and schouwburg (but idee and theater is also possible) to German Idee and Theater (but Denkbild and Schauburg are also known).
-- user:Cristiano_16, 26.08.2012 —Preceding undated comment added 12:45, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
The Dialect in Groningen should be called Gronings and not East-Frisian. Frisian is a dialect that is spoken in the Friesland province and some other places, but it is not an equivalent of Gronings. Gronings is a lower-saxon dialect. Lower-saxon dialects (a.o. Gronings, Drents, Twents) are spoken in the Northern East region of NL and a large part of Germany. Frisian is spoken mainly in the Friesland province which lies in the north-west and is not a lower-saxon dialect. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nedersaksiese_taalgebied.png
So please correct this.
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evil1980 ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
The dialect spoken in the province to the east of the province of Frisia, the Province of Groningen is called Gronings. It is a lower Saxon dialect and not Frisian. (See Gronings.) In neighbouring Germany however there is a historic county called East Frisia. In that county a lower Saxon dialect very similar to Gronings is spoken. It is called East Frisian. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 15:02, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
The current table shows only the old genitive forms, but of these only the plural 'der' is commonly used outside set phrases and the like, and even then it is very old-fashioned. As for the other inflected forms, they are no less common in set phrases than the old genitives. I think it would be better to either remove the table altogether, or to add the other old forms as well, and use some marking to indicate which ones are only used in set phrases and which ones are still occasionally used in archaistic language. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 10:21, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
"while historical minorities remain in parts of France and Germany, and to a lesser extent, in Indonesia, ..."(first paragraph). The existence of a dialect continuum (footnote 1) doesn't mean that there's a "historical minority" in the neighbouring German region. The Low Franconian and Low Saxon dialects spoken in the adjacent parts of Germany are quite close to Dutch and have often been regarded as "Dutch dialects", but the regions have never been part of the Netherlands (with the exception of few villages). Germany isn't mentioned in the "Geographical Distribution" section at all; otherwise, every German region where a potential "Dutch" dialect is or has been spoken would have to be listed. Johnny2323 ( talk) 03:41, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The 'trots op het moedertaal' source, cited from 3 locations in the article, is not suitable for quoting here. It says that 96% *of survey respondents* say that Dutch is their mother tongue. Did they survey only Dutch speakers? It doesn't actually say one way or the other but my suspicion is yes.
Have some original research:
That, right there, is more than 5% of the population being non-native speakers, and I've not remotely covered the whole population.-- Froggienation ( talk) 14:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Now that ʔ and ɡ feature in the table, and ʃ is mentioned as being a frequent realization of /s/ + /j/ sequences, I propose to add frequent realizations of /t/ + /j/ and /k/ + /j/ to the table showing parts of the Dutch consonant system as well. I am in doubt though about what IPA signs ought to be used. Maybe ȶ or ʨ, and c, respectively? Redav ( talk) 13:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I move to strike the following passage:
'The characters 'Ç', 'ç', 'Ñ' or 'ñ' can also be found in the Dutch language but the words which contain one of these characters are loanwords too and these words are inherited from Spain and Portugal. They don't occur very often.'
...because 1) its message is implied by the previous sentence: 'Other diacritical marks such as the circumflex only occur in a few words, most of them loanwords from French', which rather says it all; 2) its 'wording' is rather clumsy ('words... loanwords... words'; 'inherited from Spain and Portugal' instead of 'borrowed from Portuguese and Spanish, respectively'); 3) it contains errors: there are certainly no loanwords in Dutch from Portuguese which contain capital Ç (in Portuguese itself, Ç and ç never occur word-initially); in the same vein, I am quite sure there are no loanwords in Dutch from Spanish containing Ñ (or beginning with ñ). The only use for capitals Ç and Ñ is in all-capital (e.g. newspaper) expression (CURAÇAO, EL NIÑO), which is a world-wide shouting rather than Dutch writing system. Collideascope ( talk) 19:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
These two pages should clearly contain the same information. How is this synchronised? CodeCat ( talk) 11:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I propose to remove the citation from the Vorstermansbijbel:
'want si waren onder veel teghen mi' means 'because they were amongst many against me'.
This is a different meaning from all other citations (which all read, essentially, 'because amongst many, he was with me'). Even if the Vorsterman translation (from the Vulgata) would in any way be arguably correct, it distracts from the linguistic comparison that is being made here.
Also, it looks like the Vorsterman citation has been inserted later and rather willy-nilly, without any consideration of context, as it spoils the flow and contents of the surrounding text. Collideascope ( talk) 19:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the Vorstermansbijbel citation. Collideascope ( talk) 18:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I think the word order of the interrogative main clause should be mentioned, as it (at least in its simplest form) constitutes an exception to both the SOV and V2 word orders as described. If this view is supported I could edit this myself but I'll gladly leave it to the original editor of 'Word order'; or, indeed, to anyone else who feels the need. Collideascope ( talk) 18:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC) Added word order in interrogative clauses. Collideascope ( talk) 20:34, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Currently South Africa is listed as a country where Dutch is spoken, with a parenthetical explanation that it is spoken "as Afrikaans". Is that really appropriate? I don't think we list other closely related languages this way. Since Afrikaans is officially and linguistically a separate language now I feel like this entry should be removed. Opinions? Dusty| 💬| You can help! 16:28, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes "Netherlandish" is proposed as a more proper word in English to refer to "Dutch", because of the confusion this word creates, not only amongst English native speakers, but also amongst everybody learning about the Dutch language through English as a second language, thus propagating this confusion (between "Dutch" and "Deutsch", mainly) worldwide. Maybe it would be an idea to include a heading about this alternative term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joekiedoe ( talk • contribs) 23:26, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Would it be possible for a keen-eyed English speaker who's good at making connections to learn Dutch as if it were English rather than from scratch like a foreign language? In the sense of how in uni, people read Chaucer in Middle English but with a glossary at the bottom but it's close enough that someone can pick it up and read it like modern English "naturally" with just a little help without having to learn it from scratch the way one would a more distant language such as Spanish or Japanese. What I wonder is if someone who had no difficulty reading Chaucer and making the mental connections without having to "learn" it as a separate language could possibly read Dutch as if it were English with a glossary at the bottom and understand it and even learn it without learning it as a completely separate unrelated language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.63.43 ( talk) 15:38, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
In the table in the Diachronic paragraph I read of "Early Limburgish Middle Dutch" and "Late Limburgish Middle Dutch". I suppose "Early Middle Limburgish" and "Late Middle Limburgish" were meant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redav ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)