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I don't think it's necessary to mention abbreviations (is this the right term?) like 't, z'n, d'r in an outline of the Dutch grammar. In written Dutch they aren't used a lot. I think the way it's done now could confuse people. It's probably better to mention them seperately. Guaka 18:46, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This article is not clear on how the 3 genders work in Dutch. Many non-Dutch speakers believe Dutch has only two genders like Danish and Swedish, especially since Dutch-teaching textbooks and dictionaries only ever seem to go as far as "de nouns" and "het nouns". We could use some example sentences showing how the correct pronoun for "it" must be used depending on the gender of the object being referred to.
The pronoun section also seems to throw everything in together making it hard to get a feel of the gender and case distinctins. — Hippietrail 01:21, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
there also seem to be some factual errors in here. referring especially to the distinction between second person singular pronoun and plural.
somebody needs to clean this up a bit.
I just cleaned up the mistake regarding the 2nd person pronoun. I think a couple of things still need to be improved on. A section relating to adjectives and how they are inflected with -e seems important, 'pronouns' shouldn't be a sub-section of nouns, but rather a sub-section of its own, with separate entries on personal, demonstrative, interrogative pronouns, etc.
As for gender: I don't think a section on the difference between masculine and feminine genders should be given that much importance, because in practice Dutch has become a two-gender language: a phrase like "de zon en zijn stralen" is AFAIK considered correct by the ANS e.a. Most speakers in the Netherlands are completely unaware of the distinction between masculine and feminine nouns. Joost 00:26, 24 Jan 2005 (CET)
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 09:35, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Compared to other grammar articles on Wikipedia, I think this one is a bit "dumbed down" in the way it ommits the distinction between maculine and feminine genders. Or should there be a separate article for Dutch nouns or Dutch genders or Advanced Dutch grammar?
I would like to add that altough it might be difficult for people from the netherlands to make a distinction between masculine and feminine in some words they do know the difference really well in others. for example if one says de moeder en haar kinderen no-one would suggest de moeder en zijn kinderen. Of course it is obvious that moeder is a feminine word but for many dutch speakers as I know words like zon and regering are the same. To me it seems important to make clear in this article that Dutch has a difference between masculine and femine words albeit do don't feel it in all of them.
Something else I've just learned about Dutch which is interesting but not covered here is the use of "aan het" in particular verb constructions. I would like to know more about it please. — Hippietrail 01:09, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The only example of aan het I can think of is zonnebaden aan het strand (sunbathing on the beach). I think the meaning of aan het is best described as at the location, folowed by the actual location. I'm no expert though, just a random Dutch person. So I'm afraid I can't help you with any questions regarding when you can use it, because I do it intuitively - DodgeK
Could you give us a source for that. I dont think it is true
merijn
A number of weak verbs such as denken show the irregularity associated with Rückumlaut: see the article on umlaut:
Last time I checked, the past tense of denken was ik dacht, which is simply a strong verb. I don't quite get the sentence above it either, maybe my knowledge of my own language is limited, but I think it can be completely removed. - DodgeK
I don't understand what is meant by this rule. Who does? Sixtus 20:44, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
It does occur, but always with the verb 'laten' (laten we gaan = let's go, etc.). Not strictly a 'command', though. 157.193.51.71 13:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I found an orphaned article about a small part of Dutch grammar: T-rules, however I don't see a way how a link to te "T-rules" article might be established in the "Dutch grammar" article. Freako 13:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
At any rate, we don't need both T-rules and 't kofschip! I prefer the latter as a title. If the T-rules has useful discrete info, merge it into the 't kofschip and then delete T-rules. -- Doric Loon 14:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the T-rules add useful info, but they are different form the 't kofschip, the T-rules deal with the second person form of verbs in all moods, voices,tenses and numbers, while 't kofschip deals with the active past simple, but for all persons. Maybe we could link them. Furthermore, the rules expressed by Sixtus are not correct, they only handle about the active simple present and the active perfect, only in the indicative mood and only for the pronouns jij (je) and u. So they are not 'completely' correct.
Why have the explanations of the Dutch article been oversimplified?
--> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbuiging_van_het_lidwoord
The article stated that Dutch nouns are marked for definiteness. As far as I understand 'marking' and 'definiteness', that's not correct, so I removed it. The placing of the comment did make me suspect that it was meant in the context of Flemish Dutch. If this was the case, could someone please elaborate? Junes 21:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Sandertje expanded the section about the gender of nouns with more information about genders. When I reverted this, he answered "The grammer provided is correct. It doesn't matter what most of the Dutch know about Dutch grammer, if so the page would be rather empty." Yes, it doesn't matter what they know, but it does matter what they use. A grammar is a description of a language, after all.
The difference between masculine and feminine nouns, if there were any in Dutch, would only be visible in the usage of the personal pronoun "he" (hij) or "she" (zij) for the word. In fact, the Dutch don't use these pronouns as it is in the article now. The situation in Belgium may be different, though. Ucucha (talk) 06:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This version simply isn't correct. originally there were 'there are' 3 genders.Just because the masc. and fem. use the same article in the nominative doesn't mean we lost it.That's rediculous.
So i'm sorry to say but your compromise will just not do. This about accurate and factual information on Dutch grammer. I mean what's next? Claiming that Dutch lost the dative, accustive and genitive ?
Sandertje (talk) 09:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
@Sandertje: Dutch has almost lost these cases. At least in spoken language, there is no difference between dative and accusative, while the datcusative and the genitive are only marked in some pronouns. I'm sorry, your last edit is partly ridiculous. The section is about nouns, not only about their gender. In fact, your version states that Dutch has only two genders ("As a result of evolution masculine, feminine nouns merged into one common gender."), while the old version ("For all practical purposes, at least in the Netherlands, the masculine and feminine gender have merged into one common gender.") is more subtle. Furthermore, your version does not explain the difference between the Netherlands and Flanders, which exists. Ucucha (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Um ... no not quite.The genitive still exists: De supermarks aanbiedingen. The accustive and dative still exist in hen and hun, and then there's the sytaxs: Onderwerp/Lijdendvoorwerp/Meewerkendvoorwerp and the preposition 'van'. I'm suprised how you can say >>in spoken Dutch, there is no distinction between masculine/feminine<< simple proof of the fact that we do is 'teef vs reu'. Of 'dief' vs 'dievegge'.
But this is not the point.Point is that dutch has 3 genders not 2.
>> In fact, your version states that Dutch has only two genders ("As a result of evolution masculine, feminine nouns merged into one common gender."), while the old version ("For all practical purposes, at least in the Netherlands, the masculine and feminine gender have merged into one common gender.")<<
No my version doesn't say that.Common = gemeenschappelijk. in the form of 'de'. The old versions claimes that dutch merged the 2 for practical purposes which isn't true. - taalontwikkeling -.
Sandertje 13.17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The article should state that Dutch still has 3 genders, although in practice, many
inhabitants of large parts of The Netherlands do not distinguish anymore between many M and F words, but that's something different. Some words are still considered M or F; not only words like 'boer' or 'secretaresse', but also words ending on -ing (always F) or on -aard (always M) and many more. Look up 'vereniging' or 'beiaard' in the Groene Boekje or Van Dale. It is still wrong to say "de vereniging - zijn leden" or "de beiaard - haar geluid". (That's descriptive, not purely prescriptive: the editors of the Groene Boekje and the dictionaries have already removed the gender for many other de-words because there, the difference is not "experienced" anymore. But that does not mean that the genders have ceased to exist alltogether!) Different example: every lawyer knows that 'raad' is M and that 'rechtbank' is F. And in Belgium and some parts of The Netherlands, most people still distinguish between M and F for practically all de-words (and use the article "een" (F) or "(e)ne" (M) depending on the gender).
Useful links (ANS):
[1] and
[2].
Sixtus
14:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
By the way, it's 'der supermarkt aanbiedingen', not 'des supermarkts aanbiedingen' ;-) Sixtus 14:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
>>
How hard is it to understand that Dutch has 3 genders? there are many people who use hen and hun correctly and it's wasn't invented in the 16th century.
Sandertje 14.17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
No, it was the 17th century. By P.C. Hooft, if I'm not mistaken.
As noted, we should not confuse biological sex with grammatical gender. English can also use 'he' and 'she' to refer to male and female things, but that does not mean that English has grammatical gender. In the literature standard Dutch is assumed to have two genders. See for instance Booij, The Morphology of Dutch'
Google book search, p.36, "Dutch nouns belong to one of two gender classes, common gender or neuter gender".
I think the compromise that Sixtus suggests is fine, but I would include that in "Northern" standard Dutch the difference really is only one of writing and formal spoken Dutch, and then only minimally ("De vereniging en zijn leden" does not sound ungrammatical to me in colloquial Dutch, although I wouldn't use it in writing).
Junes
14:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, do we really need this huge list of words that fall in the feminine or masculine category, if they're only very minimally distinguished? I mean, it seems a bit overemphasized when compared to the rest of the article... Junes 14:33, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh please stop the P.C hooft and schoolmaster crap (excuse me) cases as such are not invented by people.they developed themselves.
A few remarks
1] There is such thing as ' "Northern" standard Dutch ' there is only one standard form used in both Flanders and the Netherlands.
2]"De vereniging en zijn leden" doesn't sound right to me (Unless I knew it would be a mens only club or something like that)
3] 'Things' in English can never be 'he' or 'she' except when regarding an animals. Calling a schip 'her' or 'she' in English is common but grammatically incorect.
Sandertje 14.55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The distinction between 'hen' and 'hun' coming from grammarians is not 'crap'. See for instance
this link or the [
Dutch Wikipedia]. "Hen" en "hun" existed, but it were 17th century grammarians that wanted to model Dutch onto Latin who invented these things. The same happened with English, hence the prescriptivist "do not end sentences with a proposition" or "do not split infinitives".
Anyhow, I'm getting a bit exasperated with this discussion. You've been quite condescending in some of your remarks, without supplying any evidence outside of your personal opinion. I think the last version by Thijs! was perfectly fine and a lot better than the garbled, unstructured thing that we have now (with nonsensical wikilinks, such as to "Evolution").
Junes
15:19, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
1 Ucucha,
-I'll answer in '#' to make it easier to read:
1] Kot vs kamers. This is called regional variation.Studing in Antwerp I know that a lot of Flemish persons say kamers as wel. (just like Dutch tent to say 'wasbak' more often than 'wastafel')
2] Such as. (and thanks for agreeing that means a lot to me ;-) -no sarcasm intended-)
3] I was referring to a line written by Junes.
2 Junes,
I really don't want to sound condescending or insulting for that manner, I guess I'm just irritated and astonished of the fact that 'my logic' which for is pretty easy to understand needs so much fuss :-) Please remember that I never mean to be arrogant/insulting or anything i that reaction.
Sandertje (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Ucucha (talk) 16:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
That sentence is impossible, an astroid can't have a moon (in it's orbit). But I'll give you a sentence: De astroïde heeft een baan die haar elke 3 jaar langs de aarde stuurt.
Sandertje (talk) 16.41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, no offense taken. Now, let's see if we can find some middle ground. I like the original text better, because it was much more concise and was stylistically better. Here it is:
I don't see much wrong with this. It says that there were originally three genders (true), and that for all practical purposes, two of those have merged into one common gender. We could make it "most". We could add the exceptions. We might exclude the dictionary statement, which I personally find hard to believe and is not very relevant anyway. We might also remove the "(slight)" at the end. Then we'd get something like this:
Now, is that acceptable? If not, what is wrong with it specifically? Also, how useful is the long list of masculine and feminine nouns to potential readers of this article? Junes 16:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, I have 2 big problems with that version:
1] "Originally" will just not do because Dutch 'still' has 3 genders.
2] The difference between 'belgian' and 'dutch dutch' . There is not difference , grammatically, between Dutch in the Netherlands and in Flanders.Therefore 'the different grammatical role' isn't correct.
But I'm glad we've started 'working ' instead of arguing.
Sandertje 16:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
@2: Yes, there is. An example I know is the "doordringbaarheid van de werkwoordelijke eindgroep". For example, in the Netherlands you can only say "Ik zeg dat hij nooit kan werken", while in Belgium "Ik zeg dat hij kan nooit werken" is also possible (I'm not sure if this example is really correct, but the difference certainly exists; I've also seen it in Dutch written by Belgians). See nl:Woordgeslacht. Ucucha (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Junes 16:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Another authorative source on Dutch grammar, the Algemene Nederlandse Spraakkunst, says this about Dutch gender [5]: "Ten aanzien van de-woorden die geen personen of dieren aanduiden geldt het volgende. In de gesproken taal worden deze woorden in het noorden vrij algemeen als mannelijk behandeld; in de geschreven taal worden in het noorden een aantal, met name formeel gekenmerkte, substantieven ook wel als vrouwelijk behandeld. (...) Overigens lijkt het zuidelijke driegenerasysteem te evolueren in de richting van het noordelijke tweegenerasysteem." (emphasis mine). Junes 17:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
>>>>> Yes, there is. An example I know is the "doordringbaarheid van de werkwoordelijke eindgroep". For example, in the Netherlands you can only say "Ik zeg dat hij nooit kan werken", while in Belgium "Ik zeg dat hij kan nooit werken" is also possible (I'm not sure if this example is really correct, but the difference certainly exists; I've also seen it in Dutch written by Belgians). See nl:Woordgeslacht. Ucucha (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)<<<<<
No there isn't I use both sentences. DUTCH in the Netherlands is the same as in FLANDERS. There is no difference. Why would we have de taalunie which makes the spelling for Dutch when we have 2 versions?
Sandertje 17:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
No confirmation whatsoever. I'm Dutch too you see. Sandertje 21:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The person in the post you provided uses dialect and forms of Dutch that most people here consider archaisms. BUT The spelling and grammer is the same. If he or she would enter a text in both common practised spelling here and there she would get the same mark because the spelling is both accepted Dutch.
Sandertje 17:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
It's not just that person or that specific dialect. This phenomenon is widespread throughout Flanders. The grammar is not the same. The articles are different for masculine and feminine (unlike in Dutch Dutch) and the possesive pronoun ("haar" vs. "hare") is different. Those are grammatical differences (one has
agreement for M/F, the other doesn't).
The Taalunie tries to maintain a standard form of written Dutch used for official purposes, which is a noble goal in itself. But it's not our purpose here. We must try to describe Dutch without any preconception of what is right or wrong. That doesn't mean we need to include every dialectal oddity, but when something is widespread throughout Flanders, it needs to be mentioned. But I'm sorry, I really don't have more time to discuss this. I'll leave a note on Sixtus' user page, to see if he has an idea how to proceed, since he made quite some sensible comments earlier.
Junes
17:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I study Germanic language for ****'s sake :-) I know what I'm talking about. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE! SPELLING IS THE SAME AND IN SOME CASES OPTIONAL. I mean please people!
Sandertje 18:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't have to convince anyone.I provide facts.The problem here are people that refuse to 'obey' Dutch grammar. And why? Because 'it doesn't sound wrong' ?
Sandertje 18:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, the discussion about gender is not about spelling, so let's not get into that. Secondly, the major reference books (ANS, Van Dale, Groene Boekje) agree upon the fact that Dutch still has three genders. BUT: nowadays, many de-words (which term sounds a bit childish to me) are not considered exclusively M or F by many native speakers, especially by native speakers from "the North". One can refer to these words by using either 'hij' or 'zij'; that's both "right", because these words are considered both M and F! Words that do not fall into this category, are still denoted m. or v. in the dictionaries and Groene Boekje. I'd suggest something like this:
Sixtus 20:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This message by Sixtus get's us somewhere:
>>>In Dutch there are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. Masculine and feminine nouns are often also called de-words, and neuter nouns are often called het-words, as a result of the definite article with which these nouns are accompanied. Few native speakers in the Netherlands are aware which nouns are masculine and which are feminine, though, and many words are considered both masculine and feminine. In Belgium, however, awareness of the distinction between feminine and masculine nouns is much stronger, and still plays a grammatical role in the Dutch spoken in Flanders and the Flemish dialects. <<<<
If this would be changed to the text below you'd make me very VERY happy:
In Dutch there are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. Masculine and feminine nouns are sometimes called de-words, and neuter nouns are sometimes called het-words, as a result of the definite article with which these nouns are accompanied. The number of native speakers in the Netherlands who are aware which nouns are masculine and which are feminine is smaller than in Flanders, and a large number of words are considered both masculine and feminine. In Belgium, the awareness of the distinction between feminine and masculine nouns is stronger, and plays a larger grammatical role in the Dutch spoken in Flanders than the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands.
Sandertje 20:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
− Woodstone 22:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I really don't mean to sound arrogant but I believe that compared to the versions I've seen up to now.My version is the 'best'.
Sandertje 22:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I just thought about another place we see the difference, ie in wier/wiens. And another idea: we can make a list with detoriations of our language, with these examples, as well as hun/hen (for which the rule is completely artificial) and some others. Thijs! 15:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
>>>>in written language in Algemeen Nederlands, the official standard language of Belgium, Suriname and the Netherlands, the difference between feminine and masculine shows only in personal pronouns.<<<<
Sorry but how can you say this? "de vereniging viert haar jubileum" proves the opposite. Besides that is 'Flemmish' when you mean "Vlamingen".
I've adapted the article:
In Dutch there are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. Masculine and feminine nouns are sometimes called de-words, and neuter nouns are sometimes called het-words, as a result of the definite article with which these nouns are accompanied. The number of native speakers in the Netherlands who are aware which nouns are masculine and which are feminine is smaller than in Flanders, and a large number of words are considered both masculine and feminine. nevertheless, the distinction between feminine and masculine nouns is made but plays a slightly larger grammatical role in the Dutch spoken in Flanders than the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands. Sandertje 15:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
May I also propose to move the two screens full of text about rules for determination of the gender of nouns to a page Gender in Dutch grammar, so we can keep this article more comprehensive? Thijs! 21:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, yes.But let's agree on the text on the main grammer page first :-) Sandertje 22:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I moved the list of rules together with the introductionary text to Gender in Dutch grammar. Please note that I copied the introductionary text as well, so if we agree here on a different text, we have to keep in mind to change it in the other article as well. Thijs! 17:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
How come Dutch is claimed to be SVO? Last time I checked most theories explain things with SOV underlying.
Let me help you,
Ik las gisteren dit boek. I read yesterday this book
Sandertje 15:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Dutch is in my opinion best described as a SOV language that has also V2 properties. All verbs follow the object with the exception of the inflected verb in a main clause. The inflected verb of a main clause is in the second position in normal sentences (V2) and in the first position in yes/no questions. Then there is a final rule that says that subordinate clauses tend to be at the end of a sentence. All the examples above can be discribed this way. So in the example above "hij (S) eet (V) vlees (O)" (he eats meat)the word order appears as SVO because 1) it is a main clause 2) it starts with the subject 3) it is not a question and 4) it has only one verb. If a sentence doesnt fulfil these 4 conditions, it wont have SVO word order (unless the object is a suburbinate clause but lets not complicate this complicated matter too much). I dont know how to put this in easy-to-grasp way but this is how Dutch word order works.
Another reason that Dutch is basically SOV is de position of the infinitive:
And:
It seems that Dutch is basically SOV, but the inflected verb goes to the second position (V2). Another part of the sentence can also be placed before the inflected verb. Ucucha (talk) 20:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The above is very strange theory where the exception is declared the rule, with an additional rule to shuffle it back to normal in most cases. This must be regarded as a typical case where some experts excel at making their theories so involved and distant from practice, that the speakers do not recognise themselves anymore. I will try tro find some more sources. − Woodstone 19:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
E: I can buy a dog (S V V O) F: Je peux acheter un chien (S V V O) D: Ik kan een hond kopen (S V O V)
and
E: I look up a word (S V "V" O) D: Ik zoek een woord op (S V O "V")
(the particles up and op can be considered part of the verb; I'm sorry I don't know any examples from French)
The simplest explanation is obviously underlying SOV with inflected verb moved to V2. Ucucha (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Woodstone: nope. For SVO, you need a main rule (Dutch is SVO) with three exceptions:
SOV has only one:
The 3rd exception to SOV may not be that good, since OVS might need another exception to underlying SOV, but in any case there's one more exception in SVO. Ucucha (talk) 14:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, Woodstone. However, in this construction "er" is a form of "hier/daar/waar" (cf. German darauf/drauf). "Er" does not replace a noun. Or am I missing something? Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 20:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
So it is a pronoun for all genders. I will let this one go if you promise to include a section describing the use of er as a reference to a preceding (or implied) word (noun). I do not care if you call it a pronoun. − Woodstone 19:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I've expanded the "Pronominal adverbs" section, saying that "er" can be both a (special kind of) pronoun and an adverb, depending on the context… The term "r-pronoun" is well established in the linguistic literature about Dutch prepositional structures (I only cited the most famous guy in the references). And personally I don't like the label "pronominal adverb" but it comes from traditional Dutch grammar, so what can you do? But terminology aside, this is really something interesting and unique about Dutch grammar, so I hope it doesn't just get deleted without a trace. CapnPrep 21:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The part about the genitive in Dutch bothers me: it states that one shouldn't use the genitive because some people make grammar mistakes? What kind of bullshit is that. I certainly think we should remove the grammar mistake from wikipedia. There still is a genitive in Dutch, although it is right that it isn't used very often. But de geschiedenis der Nederlandse film is just wrong. It is true that some people might write this, but these people also write "ik wordt" instead of "ik word", this doesn't mean that we should stop using the verb "worden"! Moreover the genitive of people's names is used very often: Jans boek (Jan's book); het boek van Jan is just incorrect. Govert Miereveld 19:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Sourced content has been deleted twice today from the Personal and possessive pronouns section by 86.39.64.102 / 86.39.64.74, in favor of an earlier revision by 134.184.49.145 ( 18:47, 23 May). Please discuss here and provide appropriate sources before making the same unmotivated edits again. CapnPrep 22:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to rekindle the gender discussion, but the following does not make sense: "This notion of commonality between masculine and feminine nouns in Dutch is supported by the fact that the gender of Dutch nouns can usually only be found by looking them up in a dictionary, although there are some rules to help determining the gender of many words." The same holds for German, in which genders are very actively distinguished. What is the sentence supposed to mean? Can it be deleted? 129.27.237.29 19:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The definite articles list is not complete. It has missed out the possessive/genitive article. This is best seen in the Dutch name for the King of the Belgians, De Koning der Belgen. I don't know if all grammatical genders have a possessive article, but it certainly seems the plural does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.193.145 ( talk) 14:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
The section has on Mon Jan 26 09:10:07 CET 2009:
Pronominal adverbs
Pronouns in Dutch work differently depending on whether or not they appear with a preposition. When they are used as the subject or object of a verb (without a preposition), they are chosen according to the grammatical gender of the noun they replace—i.e. hij/hem/'m for masculine (or common gender) nouns, zij/haar/d'r for feminine nouns, and het/'t for neuter nouns (the reduced forms are preferred when referring to inanimate objects):
* Zie je [de stoel]/[de deur]/[het broodje]? ("Do you see the chair/the door/the sandwich?") * Ik zie 'm/(d)'r/'t. (lit. "I see him/her/it.")
The error is that in standard Dutch (at least in the Netherlands) feminine nouns are only recognized as feminine nouns in the grammatical sense when they refer to real human or animal females - not something like a door. I'm a native speaker, and wouldn't know if "de deur" was masculine or feminine even if my life depended on it. Zie je de deur? Ja, ik zie 'm.
Perhaps that in the Netherlands in very formal written language (or perhaps when spoken by the Queen) one may make distinctions between grammatical masculine/feminine gender with regard to certain words - but AFAIK that's as far as it goes.
Maybe things are slightly different in Belgium, so, either the section contains an error, or should indicate that the example is for Belgium only. -- Kornelis ( talk) 08:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I just removed this new section:
Is this really such a notable feature of Dutch grammar that it deserves a section on a par with "Word order" and "Verbs"? If it goes back in the article somewhere (and not, for example, in Wikibooks, or Wikitravel), it should at least be sourced. CapnPrep ( talk) 21:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
It was difficult to find a source for something that obvious. Eventually I tried the google-pictures and it showed an "unfinished firsst floor"
Faithfully yours,
Robert Prummel ( talk) 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the article it is more common to express numbers up to 10000 in terms of hundreds, as opposed to a combination of thousands and hundreds. Is this actually true?
(I'm satisfied that both forms are acceptable, and that hundreds are probably more common up to 2000. I've not been able to find any evidence that hundreds are more common between 2000 and 10000, and the only citable example I've found - from A Reference Grammar of Dutch - gives 2576=tweeduizendvijfhonderdzesenzeventig. For information the limit is 2000 in British English and Afrikaans, but 10000 in American English.)
-- Dr Graham D Shaw ( talk) 06:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello. Great development of the article! I think we should add a complete list and paradigm of the irregular verbs. They're just nine: kunnen, zullen, willen, mogen (preterite-present verbs; moeten is regular); zijn, hebben; and with minor irregularities komen (vowel shortening) and houden, rijden (with hou, rij alongside houd, rijd). These are all for as much as I know. Best regards!
"cases have largely fallen out of use", does this mean that in some dialects case is marked, or that it was used recently, and perhaps some dutch speakers recognize them? Or does it mean that dutch no longer has case, like in english?
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I added a section on modal particles, similar to the one in German grammar, however this one links to the main page on it instead of a separate page for Dutch grammar, since all information on the dutch modal particle on the english wikipedia is on that page. I've done it this way, since I'm a bit hesitant to make a separate "Dutch modal particle" page. (because then there could be a separate page for that for 8+ languages). SteenDesAanstoots22 ( talk) 13:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
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I don't think it's necessary to mention abbreviations (is this the right term?) like 't, z'n, d'r in an outline of the Dutch grammar. In written Dutch they aren't used a lot. I think the way it's done now could confuse people. It's probably better to mention them seperately. Guaka 18:46, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This article is not clear on how the 3 genders work in Dutch. Many non-Dutch speakers believe Dutch has only two genders like Danish and Swedish, especially since Dutch-teaching textbooks and dictionaries only ever seem to go as far as "de nouns" and "het nouns". We could use some example sentences showing how the correct pronoun for "it" must be used depending on the gender of the object being referred to.
The pronoun section also seems to throw everything in together making it hard to get a feel of the gender and case distinctins. — Hippietrail 01:21, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
there also seem to be some factual errors in here. referring especially to the distinction between second person singular pronoun and plural.
somebody needs to clean this up a bit.
I just cleaned up the mistake regarding the 2nd person pronoun. I think a couple of things still need to be improved on. A section relating to adjectives and how they are inflected with -e seems important, 'pronouns' shouldn't be a sub-section of nouns, but rather a sub-section of its own, with separate entries on personal, demonstrative, interrogative pronouns, etc.
As for gender: I don't think a section on the difference between masculine and feminine genders should be given that much importance, because in practice Dutch has become a two-gender language: a phrase like "de zon en zijn stralen" is AFAIK considered correct by the ANS e.a. Most speakers in the Netherlands are completely unaware of the distinction between masculine and feminine nouns. Joost 00:26, 24 Jan 2005 (CET)
MWAK-- 84.27.81.59 09:35, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Compared to other grammar articles on Wikipedia, I think this one is a bit "dumbed down" in the way it ommits the distinction between maculine and feminine genders. Or should there be a separate article for Dutch nouns or Dutch genders or Advanced Dutch grammar?
I would like to add that altough it might be difficult for people from the netherlands to make a distinction between masculine and feminine in some words they do know the difference really well in others. for example if one says de moeder en haar kinderen no-one would suggest de moeder en zijn kinderen. Of course it is obvious that moeder is a feminine word but for many dutch speakers as I know words like zon and regering are the same. To me it seems important to make clear in this article that Dutch has a difference between masculine and femine words albeit do don't feel it in all of them.
Something else I've just learned about Dutch which is interesting but not covered here is the use of "aan het" in particular verb constructions. I would like to know more about it please. — Hippietrail 01:09, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The only example of aan het I can think of is zonnebaden aan het strand (sunbathing on the beach). I think the meaning of aan het is best described as at the location, folowed by the actual location. I'm no expert though, just a random Dutch person. So I'm afraid I can't help you with any questions regarding when you can use it, because I do it intuitively - DodgeK
Could you give us a source for that. I dont think it is true
merijn
A number of weak verbs such as denken show the irregularity associated with Rückumlaut: see the article on umlaut:
Last time I checked, the past tense of denken was ik dacht, which is simply a strong verb. I don't quite get the sentence above it either, maybe my knowledge of my own language is limited, but I think it can be completely removed. - DodgeK
I don't understand what is meant by this rule. Who does? Sixtus 20:44, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
It does occur, but always with the verb 'laten' (laten we gaan = let's go, etc.). Not strictly a 'command', though. 157.193.51.71 13:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I found an orphaned article about a small part of Dutch grammar: T-rules, however I don't see a way how a link to te "T-rules" article might be established in the "Dutch grammar" article. Freako 13:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
At any rate, we don't need both T-rules and 't kofschip! I prefer the latter as a title. If the T-rules has useful discrete info, merge it into the 't kofschip and then delete T-rules. -- Doric Loon 14:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the T-rules add useful info, but they are different form the 't kofschip, the T-rules deal with the second person form of verbs in all moods, voices,tenses and numbers, while 't kofschip deals with the active past simple, but for all persons. Maybe we could link them. Furthermore, the rules expressed by Sixtus are not correct, they only handle about the active simple present and the active perfect, only in the indicative mood and only for the pronouns jij (je) and u. So they are not 'completely' correct.
Why have the explanations of the Dutch article been oversimplified?
--> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbuiging_van_het_lidwoord
The article stated that Dutch nouns are marked for definiteness. As far as I understand 'marking' and 'definiteness', that's not correct, so I removed it. The placing of the comment did make me suspect that it was meant in the context of Flemish Dutch. If this was the case, could someone please elaborate? Junes 21:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Sandertje expanded the section about the gender of nouns with more information about genders. When I reverted this, he answered "The grammer provided is correct. It doesn't matter what most of the Dutch know about Dutch grammer, if so the page would be rather empty." Yes, it doesn't matter what they know, but it does matter what they use. A grammar is a description of a language, after all.
The difference between masculine and feminine nouns, if there were any in Dutch, would only be visible in the usage of the personal pronoun "he" (hij) or "she" (zij) for the word. In fact, the Dutch don't use these pronouns as it is in the article now. The situation in Belgium may be different, though. Ucucha (talk) 06:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This version simply isn't correct. originally there were 'there are' 3 genders.Just because the masc. and fem. use the same article in the nominative doesn't mean we lost it.That's rediculous.
So i'm sorry to say but your compromise will just not do. This about accurate and factual information on Dutch grammer. I mean what's next? Claiming that Dutch lost the dative, accustive and genitive ?
Sandertje (talk) 09:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
@Sandertje: Dutch has almost lost these cases. At least in spoken language, there is no difference between dative and accusative, while the datcusative and the genitive are only marked in some pronouns. I'm sorry, your last edit is partly ridiculous. The section is about nouns, not only about their gender. In fact, your version states that Dutch has only two genders ("As a result of evolution masculine, feminine nouns merged into one common gender."), while the old version ("For all practical purposes, at least in the Netherlands, the masculine and feminine gender have merged into one common gender.") is more subtle. Furthermore, your version does not explain the difference between the Netherlands and Flanders, which exists. Ucucha (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Um ... no not quite.The genitive still exists: De supermarks aanbiedingen. The accustive and dative still exist in hen and hun, and then there's the sytaxs: Onderwerp/Lijdendvoorwerp/Meewerkendvoorwerp and the preposition 'van'. I'm suprised how you can say >>in spoken Dutch, there is no distinction between masculine/feminine<< simple proof of the fact that we do is 'teef vs reu'. Of 'dief' vs 'dievegge'.
But this is not the point.Point is that dutch has 3 genders not 2.
>> In fact, your version states that Dutch has only two genders ("As a result of evolution masculine, feminine nouns merged into one common gender."), while the old version ("For all practical purposes, at least in the Netherlands, the masculine and feminine gender have merged into one common gender.")<<
No my version doesn't say that.Common = gemeenschappelijk. in the form of 'de'. The old versions claimes that dutch merged the 2 for practical purposes which isn't true. - taalontwikkeling -.
Sandertje 13.17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The article should state that Dutch still has 3 genders, although in practice, many
inhabitants of large parts of The Netherlands do not distinguish anymore between many M and F words, but that's something different. Some words are still considered M or F; not only words like 'boer' or 'secretaresse', but also words ending on -ing (always F) or on -aard (always M) and many more. Look up 'vereniging' or 'beiaard' in the Groene Boekje or Van Dale. It is still wrong to say "de vereniging - zijn leden" or "de beiaard - haar geluid". (That's descriptive, not purely prescriptive: the editors of the Groene Boekje and the dictionaries have already removed the gender for many other de-words because there, the difference is not "experienced" anymore. But that does not mean that the genders have ceased to exist alltogether!) Different example: every lawyer knows that 'raad' is M and that 'rechtbank' is F. And in Belgium and some parts of The Netherlands, most people still distinguish between M and F for practically all de-words (and use the article "een" (F) or "(e)ne" (M) depending on the gender).
Useful links (ANS):
[1] and
[2].
Sixtus
14:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
By the way, it's 'der supermarkt aanbiedingen', not 'des supermarkts aanbiedingen' ;-) Sixtus 14:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
>>
How hard is it to understand that Dutch has 3 genders? there are many people who use hen and hun correctly and it's wasn't invented in the 16th century.
Sandertje 14.17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
No, it was the 17th century. By P.C. Hooft, if I'm not mistaken.
As noted, we should not confuse biological sex with grammatical gender. English can also use 'he' and 'she' to refer to male and female things, but that does not mean that English has grammatical gender. In the literature standard Dutch is assumed to have two genders. See for instance Booij, The Morphology of Dutch'
Google book search, p.36, "Dutch nouns belong to one of two gender classes, common gender or neuter gender".
I think the compromise that Sixtus suggests is fine, but I would include that in "Northern" standard Dutch the difference really is only one of writing and formal spoken Dutch, and then only minimally ("De vereniging en zijn leden" does not sound ungrammatical to me in colloquial Dutch, although I wouldn't use it in writing).
Junes
14:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, do we really need this huge list of words that fall in the feminine or masculine category, if they're only very minimally distinguished? I mean, it seems a bit overemphasized when compared to the rest of the article... Junes 14:33, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh please stop the P.C hooft and schoolmaster crap (excuse me) cases as such are not invented by people.they developed themselves.
A few remarks
1] There is such thing as ' "Northern" standard Dutch ' there is only one standard form used in both Flanders and the Netherlands.
2]"De vereniging en zijn leden" doesn't sound right to me (Unless I knew it would be a mens only club or something like that)
3] 'Things' in English can never be 'he' or 'she' except when regarding an animals. Calling a schip 'her' or 'she' in English is common but grammatically incorect.
Sandertje 14.55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The distinction between 'hen' and 'hun' coming from grammarians is not 'crap'. See for instance
this link or the [
Dutch Wikipedia]. "Hen" en "hun" existed, but it were 17th century grammarians that wanted to model Dutch onto Latin who invented these things. The same happened with English, hence the prescriptivist "do not end sentences with a proposition" or "do not split infinitives".
Anyhow, I'm getting a bit exasperated with this discussion. You've been quite condescending in some of your remarks, without supplying any evidence outside of your personal opinion. I think the last version by Thijs! was perfectly fine and a lot better than the garbled, unstructured thing that we have now (with nonsensical wikilinks, such as to "Evolution").
Junes
15:19, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
1 Ucucha,
-I'll answer in '#' to make it easier to read:
1] Kot vs kamers. This is called regional variation.Studing in Antwerp I know that a lot of Flemish persons say kamers as wel. (just like Dutch tent to say 'wasbak' more often than 'wastafel')
2] Such as. (and thanks for agreeing that means a lot to me ;-) -no sarcasm intended-)
3] I was referring to a line written by Junes.
2 Junes,
I really don't want to sound condescending or insulting for that manner, I guess I'm just irritated and astonished of the fact that 'my logic' which for is pretty easy to understand needs so much fuss :-) Please remember that I never mean to be arrogant/insulting or anything i that reaction.
Sandertje (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Ucucha (talk) 16:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
That sentence is impossible, an astroid can't have a moon (in it's orbit). But I'll give you a sentence: De astroïde heeft een baan die haar elke 3 jaar langs de aarde stuurt.
Sandertje (talk) 16.41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, no offense taken. Now, let's see if we can find some middle ground. I like the original text better, because it was much more concise and was stylistically better. Here it is:
I don't see much wrong with this. It says that there were originally three genders (true), and that for all practical purposes, two of those have merged into one common gender. We could make it "most". We could add the exceptions. We might exclude the dictionary statement, which I personally find hard to believe and is not very relevant anyway. We might also remove the "(slight)" at the end. Then we'd get something like this:
Now, is that acceptable? If not, what is wrong with it specifically? Also, how useful is the long list of masculine and feminine nouns to potential readers of this article? Junes 16:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, I have 2 big problems with that version:
1] "Originally" will just not do because Dutch 'still' has 3 genders.
2] The difference between 'belgian' and 'dutch dutch' . There is not difference , grammatically, between Dutch in the Netherlands and in Flanders.Therefore 'the different grammatical role' isn't correct.
But I'm glad we've started 'working ' instead of arguing.
Sandertje 16:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
@2: Yes, there is. An example I know is the "doordringbaarheid van de werkwoordelijke eindgroep". For example, in the Netherlands you can only say "Ik zeg dat hij nooit kan werken", while in Belgium "Ik zeg dat hij kan nooit werken" is also possible (I'm not sure if this example is really correct, but the difference certainly exists; I've also seen it in Dutch written by Belgians). See nl:Woordgeslacht. Ucucha (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Junes 16:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Another authorative source on Dutch grammar, the Algemene Nederlandse Spraakkunst, says this about Dutch gender [5]: "Ten aanzien van de-woorden die geen personen of dieren aanduiden geldt het volgende. In de gesproken taal worden deze woorden in het noorden vrij algemeen als mannelijk behandeld; in de geschreven taal worden in het noorden een aantal, met name formeel gekenmerkte, substantieven ook wel als vrouwelijk behandeld. (...) Overigens lijkt het zuidelijke driegenerasysteem te evolueren in de richting van het noordelijke tweegenerasysteem." (emphasis mine). Junes 17:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
>>>>> Yes, there is. An example I know is the "doordringbaarheid van de werkwoordelijke eindgroep". For example, in the Netherlands you can only say "Ik zeg dat hij nooit kan werken", while in Belgium "Ik zeg dat hij kan nooit werken" is also possible (I'm not sure if this example is really correct, but the difference certainly exists; I've also seen it in Dutch written by Belgians). See nl:Woordgeslacht. Ucucha (talk) 16:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)<<<<<
No there isn't I use both sentences. DUTCH in the Netherlands is the same as in FLANDERS. There is no difference. Why would we have de taalunie which makes the spelling for Dutch when we have 2 versions?
Sandertje 17:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
No confirmation whatsoever. I'm Dutch too you see. Sandertje 21:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The person in the post you provided uses dialect and forms of Dutch that most people here consider archaisms. BUT The spelling and grammer is the same. If he or she would enter a text in both common practised spelling here and there she would get the same mark because the spelling is both accepted Dutch.
Sandertje 17:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
It's not just that person or that specific dialect. This phenomenon is widespread throughout Flanders. The grammar is not the same. The articles are different for masculine and feminine (unlike in Dutch Dutch) and the possesive pronoun ("haar" vs. "hare") is different. Those are grammatical differences (one has
agreement for M/F, the other doesn't).
The Taalunie tries to maintain a standard form of written Dutch used for official purposes, which is a noble goal in itself. But it's not our purpose here. We must try to describe Dutch without any preconception of what is right or wrong. That doesn't mean we need to include every dialectal oddity, but when something is widespread throughout Flanders, it needs to be mentioned. But I'm sorry, I really don't have more time to discuss this. I'll leave a note on Sixtus' user page, to see if he has an idea how to proceed, since he made quite some sensible comments earlier.
Junes
17:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I study Germanic language for ****'s sake :-) I know what I'm talking about. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE! SPELLING IS THE SAME AND IN SOME CASES OPTIONAL. I mean please people!
Sandertje 18:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't have to convince anyone.I provide facts.The problem here are people that refuse to 'obey' Dutch grammar. And why? Because 'it doesn't sound wrong' ?
Sandertje 18:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, the discussion about gender is not about spelling, so let's not get into that. Secondly, the major reference books (ANS, Van Dale, Groene Boekje) agree upon the fact that Dutch still has three genders. BUT: nowadays, many de-words (which term sounds a bit childish to me) are not considered exclusively M or F by many native speakers, especially by native speakers from "the North". One can refer to these words by using either 'hij' or 'zij'; that's both "right", because these words are considered both M and F! Words that do not fall into this category, are still denoted m. or v. in the dictionaries and Groene Boekje. I'd suggest something like this:
Sixtus 20:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This message by Sixtus get's us somewhere:
>>>In Dutch there are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. Masculine and feminine nouns are often also called de-words, and neuter nouns are often called het-words, as a result of the definite article with which these nouns are accompanied. Few native speakers in the Netherlands are aware which nouns are masculine and which are feminine, though, and many words are considered both masculine and feminine. In Belgium, however, awareness of the distinction between feminine and masculine nouns is much stronger, and still plays a grammatical role in the Dutch spoken in Flanders and the Flemish dialects. <<<<
If this would be changed to the text below you'd make me very VERY happy:
In Dutch there are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. Masculine and feminine nouns are sometimes called de-words, and neuter nouns are sometimes called het-words, as a result of the definite article with which these nouns are accompanied. The number of native speakers in the Netherlands who are aware which nouns are masculine and which are feminine is smaller than in Flanders, and a large number of words are considered both masculine and feminine. In Belgium, the awareness of the distinction between feminine and masculine nouns is stronger, and plays a larger grammatical role in the Dutch spoken in Flanders than the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands.
Sandertje 20:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
− Woodstone 22:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I really don't mean to sound arrogant but I believe that compared to the versions I've seen up to now.My version is the 'best'.
Sandertje 22:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I just thought about another place we see the difference, ie in wier/wiens. And another idea: we can make a list with detoriations of our language, with these examples, as well as hun/hen (for which the rule is completely artificial) and some others. Thijs! 15:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
>>>>in written language in Algemeen Nederlands, the official standard language of Belgium, Suriname and the Netherlands, the difference between feminine and masculine shows only in personal pronouns.<<<<
Sorry but how can you say this? "de vereniging viert haar jubileum" proves the opposite. Besides that is 'Flemmish' when you mean "Vlamingen".
I've adapted the article:
In Dutch there are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. Masculine and feminine nouns are sometimes called de-words, and neuter nouns are sometimes called het-words, as a result of the definite article with which these nouns are accompanied. The number of native speakers in the Netherlands who are aware which nouns are masculine and which are feminine is smaller than in Flanders, and a large number of words are considered both masculine and feminine. nevertheless, the distinction between feminine and masculine nouns is made but plays a slightly larger grammatical role in the Dutch spoken in Flanders than the Dutch spoken in the Netherlands. Sandertje 15:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
May I also propose to move the two screens full of text about rules for determination of the gender of nouns to a page Gender in Dutch grammar, so we can keep this article more comprehensive? Thijs! 21:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, yes.But let's agree on the text on the main grammer page first :-) Sandertje 22:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I moved the list of rules together with the introductionary text to Gender in Dutch grammar. Please note that I copied the introductionary text as well, so if we agree here on a different text, we have to keep in mind to change it in the other article as well. Thijs! 17:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
How come Dutch is claimed to be SVO? Last time I checked most theories explain things with SOV underlying.
Let me help you,
Ik las gisteren dit boek. I read yesterday this book
Sandertje 15:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Dutch is in my opinion best described as a SOV language that has also V2 properties. All verbs follow the object with the exception of the inflected verb in a main clause. The inflected verb of a main clause is in the second position in normal sentences (V2) and in the first position in yes/no questions. Then there is a final rule that says that subordinate clauses tend to be at the end of a sentence. All the examples above can be discribed this way. So in the example above "hij (S) eet (V) vlees (O)" (he eats meat)the word order appears as SVO because 1) it is a main clause 2) it starts with the subject 3) it is not a question and 4) it has only one verb. If a sentence doesnt fulfil these 4 conditions, it wont have SVO word order (unless the object is a suburbinate clause but lets not complicate this complicated matter too much). I dont know how to put this in easy-to-grasp way but this is how Dutch word order works.
Another reason that Dutch is basically SOV is de position of the infinitive:
And:
It seems that Dutch is basically SOV, but the inflected verb goes to the second position (V2). Another part of the sentence can also be placed before the inflected verb. Ucucha (talk) 20:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The above is very strange theory where the exception is declared the rule, with an additional rule to shuffle it back to normal in most cases. This must be regarded as a typical case where some experts excel at making their theories so involved and distant from practice, that the speakers do not recognise themselves anymore. I will try tro find some more sources. − Woodstone 19:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
E: I can buy a dog (S V V O) F: Je peux acheter un chien (S V V O) D: Ik kan een hond kopen (S V O V)
and
E: I look up a word (S V "V" O) D: Ik zoek een woord op (S V O "V")
(the particles up and op can be considered part of the verb; I'm sorry I don't know any examples from French)
The simplest explanation is obviously underlying SOV with inflected verb moved to V2. Ucucha (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Woodstone: nope. For SVO, you need a main rule (Dutch is SVO) with three exceptions:
SOV has only one:
The 3rd exception to SOV may not be that good, since OVS might need another exception to underlying SOV, but in any case there's one more exception in SVO. Ucucha (talk) 14:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, Woodstone. However, in this construction "er" is a form of "hier/daar/waar" (cf. German darauf/drauf). "Er" does not replace a noun. Or am I missing something? Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 20:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
So it is a pronoun for all genders. I will let this one go if you promise to include a section describing the use of er as a reference to a preceding (or implied) word (noun). I do not care if you call it a pronoun. − Woodstone 19:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I've expanded the "Pronominal adverbs" section, saying that "er" can be both a (special kind of) pronoun and an adverb, depending on the context… The term "r-pronoun" is well established in the linguistic literature about Dutch prepositional structures (I only cited the most famous guy in the references). And personally I don't like the label "pronominal adverb" but it comes from traditional Dutch grammar, so what can you do? But terminology aside, this is really something interesting and unique about Dutch grammar, so I hope it doesn't just get deleted without a trace. CapnPrep 21:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The part about the genitive in Dutch bothers me: it states that one shouldn't use the genitive because some people make grammar mistakes? What kind of bullshit is that. I certainly think we should remove the grammar mistake from wikipedia. There still is a genitive in Dutch, although it is right that it isn't used very often. But de geschiedenis der Nederlandse film is just wrong. It is true that some people might write this, but these people also write "ik wordt" instead of "ik word", this doesn't mean that we should stop using the verb "worden"! Moreover the genitive of people's names is used very often: Jans boek (Jan's book); het boek van Jan is just incorrect. Govert Miereveld 19:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Sourced content has been deleted twice today from the Personal and possessive pronouns section by 86.39.64.102 / 86.39.64.74, in favor of an earlier revision by 134.184.49.145 ( 18:47, 23 May). Please discuss here and provide appropriate sources before making the same unmotivated edits again. CapnPrep 22:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to rekindle the gender discussion, but the following does not make sense: "This notion of commonality between masculine and feminine nouns in Dutch is supported by the fact that the gender of Dutch nouns can usually only be found by looking them up in a dictionary, although there are some rules to help determining the gender of many words." The same holds for German, in which genders are very actively distinguished. What is the sentence supposed to mean? Can it be deleted? 129.27.237.29 19:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The definite articles list is not complete. It has missed out the possessive/genitive article. This is best seen in the Dutch name for the King of the Belgians, De Koning der Belgen. I don't know if all grammatical genders have a possessive article, but it certainly seems the plural does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.193.145 ( talk) 14:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
The section has on Mon Jan 26 09:10:07 CET 2009:
Pronominal adverbs
Pronouns in Dutch work differently depending on whether or not they appear with a preposition. When they are used as the subject or object of a verb (without a preposition), they are chosen according to the grammatical gender of the noun they replace—i.e. hij/hem/'m for masculine (or common gender) nouns, zij/haar/d'r for feminine nouns, and het/'t for neuter nouns (the reduced forms are preferred when referring to inanimate objects):
* Zie je [de stoel]/[de deur]/[het broodje]? ("Do you see the chair/the door/the sandwich?") * Ik zie 'm/(d)'r/'t. (lit. "I see him/her/it.")
The error is that in standard Dutch (at least in the Netherlands) feminine nouns are only recognized as feminine nouns in the grammatical sense when they refer to real human or animal females - not something like a door. I'm a native speaker, and wouldn't know if "de deur" was masculine or feminine even if my life depended on it. Zie je de deur? Ja, ik zie 'm.
Perhaps that in the Netherlands in very formal written language (or perhaps when spoken by the Queen) one may make distinctions between grammatical masculine/feminine gender with regard to certain words - but AFAIK that's as far as it goes.
Maybe things are slightly different in Belgium, so, either the section contains an error, or should indicate that the example is for Belgium only. -- Kornelis ( talk) 08:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I just removed this new section:
Is this really such a notable feature of Dutch grammar that it deserves a section on a par with "Word order" and "Verbs"? If it goes back in the article somewhere (and not, for example, in Wikibooks, or Wikitravel), it should at least be sourced. CapnPrep ( talk) 21:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
It was difficult to find a source for something that obvious. Eventually I tried the google-pictures and it showed an "unfinished firsst floor"
Faithfully yours,
Robert Prummel ( talk) 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the article it is more common to express numbers up to 10000 in terms of hundreds, as opposed to a combination of thousands and hundreds. Is this actually true?
(I'm satisfied that both forms are acceptable, and that hundreds are probably more common up to 2000. I've not been able to find any evidence that hundreds are more common between 2000 and 10000, and the only citable example I've found - from A Reference Grammar of Dutch - gives 2576=tweeduizendvijfhonderdzesenzeventig. For information the limit is 2000 in British English and Afrikaans, but 10000 in American English.)
-- Dr Graham D Shaw ( talk) 06:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello. Great development of the article! I think we should add a complete list and paradigm of the irregular verbs. They're just nine: kunnen, zullen, willen, mogen (preterite-present verbs; moeten is regular); zijn, hebben; and with minor irregularities komen (vowel shortening) and houden, rijden (with hou, rij alongside houd, rijd). These are all for as much as I know. Best regards!
"cases have largely fallen out of use", does this mean that in some dialects case is marked, or that it was used recently, and perhaps some dutch speakers recognize them? Or does it mean that dutch no longer has case, like in english?
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I added a section on modal particles, similar to the one in German grammar, however this one links to the main page on it instead of a separate page for Dutch grammar, since all information on the dutch modal particle on the english wikipedia is on that page. I've done it this way, since I'm a bit hesitant to make a separate "Dutch modal particle" page. (because then there could be a separate page for that for 8+ languages). SteenDesAanstoots22 ( talk) 13:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC)