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Dear colleagues, the primary sources do not specify the nature and origins of the Durdzuks but the article sees frequent WP:BOMBARD; WP:OR what should be avoided. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 13:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Franklin Benjamin 123, Niyskho, please discuss whether to include the disputed content here rather than edit warring. If you continue I'll request blocking the page. Alaexis ¿question? 16:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
There’s no need to discuss with Niyskho as he’s a fake “Ingush” propagandist who’s trying to divide Chechen and Ingush people and interpret history in his own way. Chechens and Ingush always had the same history and always will be brotherly nations no matter what you do or say. Chechens and Ingush were the same nation until modern times. You can quote your “authoritative” sources but we both know these sources aren’t reliable and probably were written by imperialists who wanted to cause division between us. Ingush are very good people and will always be brothers to us Chechens. Franklin Benjamin 123 ( talk) 06:43, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Blaze Wolf and Liz Please do something about Бекханов. Бекханов has only recently joined and instantly went on to vandalize the page which is very suspicious to me since it might be that he had other accounts where he did same thing. He wrote his own text without any source. He clearly has an agenda against Ingush people because he wrote "the Ingush and Batsbi, who have nothing to do with the Dzurdzuks". Not only that but he edited the Russian page about Durdzuks and wrote same thing. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 21:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Can you name those major sources please? I don't support phrasing it like that. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 10:29, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
I do agree with Reiner Gavriel version, there’s no doubt that Durdzuks were ancestors of both Chechens and Ingush peoples, so I don’t understand what’s the point of this localisation and saying that Durdzuks are only associated with Ingush people and not Chechens. Even in the source that mentions this says that it’s a very weak opinion. Franklin Benjamin 123 ( talk) 13:34, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Well if so then why not remove this text too: "others believe that during the Middle Ages the population of Chechnya was known to the South Caucasian peoples under the name "Durdzuks" (or "Dzurdzuks"), and the population of Ingushetia under the names "Gligvi", "giligii"? It also looks to me like an attempt to exclude the Ingush people. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 00:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Reiner Gavriel by the way do you know that Vakhushti Bagrationi excludes the Chechens completely? He wrote Chachans (Chechens) separate from the Durdzuketia. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 00:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Excuse me, but what city in the Sunzhensky district are we talking about? The ethnonym "Chechen" appeared from the village "Chechen-Aul" which was located a hundred kilometers from Sunzha on the border with Dagestan. Your theory that the Gligvs descended from the Dzurdzuks is unreliable, because if we refer to the same maps and records from Vakhushti Bagrationi, we will see that he considered the Gligvs, the Dzurdzuks to be one people, and the Chechens to be completely different, and Vakhushti is the most reliable source, since he is Georgian . Erzi Tower ( talk) 12:26, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Blaze Wolf and Liz, please pay attention to this problematic article, there is a vandal who vandalizes and rolls back the neutral version of this article, he destroys authoritative sources and refers only to some theories. Ingush Orsthoy ( talk) 18:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Reiner Gavriel I am awaiting proof for this statement. Please provide source material with page numbers. Muqale ( talk) 17:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Vakhushti clearly says "All these the gorges that we have described were originally Dzurdzuketia". Which gorges were described prior? Kisteti, Dzurdzuki and Gligvi. He also says "the name of Gligo (Ghligho), the grandson of Dzurdzuk". Nowhere does Vakhushti locate the tribes mostly in mountainous Ingushetia. Although his description is quite bad, he is precise about the Gligvi, not only does he locate them on the "Gligva river" and the village on this river, Angushti, he is also familiar with some of their customs and rules. He is aware about such information on the Gligvi, yet he differentiates them with Dzurdzuki and Kisteti. Reiner Gavriel ( talk) 20:44, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
@ WikiEditor1234567123 Do you know what unanimously means? Every single scholar, be they Chechen, Ingush, Russian, Soviet, Western or Georgian agree that Durdzuks is a term used for Chechens and Ingush, unless you have a source that says Durdzuks are Avars, Ossetians or another Caucasian people. ( Sextus Caedicius ( talk) 20:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC))
Historians link the Durdzuks to mountainous Ingushetia and identify them with the Ingush people,[10][11][12][13][14][15][16] others believe that in the period of the Middle Ages, the population of Chechnya was known to the South Caucasian peoples under the name "Durdzuks", or "Dzurdzuks" and the population of Ingushetia under the names "Glighvi", "Ghilighvi".[17][18][19] The Georgian historian V. N. Gamrekeli claims that "Durdzuk" is definitely and, with all its references, uniformly localized, between Didoeti-Dagestan in the east and the gorge of the Terek River, in the west.[20]
Одни исследователи локализуют дзурдзуков в горной Ингушетии и отождествляют с ингушами[1][2][3][4][5], другие считают что в период Средневековья южно-кавказским народам население Чечни известно под именем «дурдзуков», или «дзурдзуков»[6][7][8], а население Ингушетии под именами «Глигви», «гилигии»[9][10]. Другие же исследователи отождествляют их в общем с предками как ингушей, так и чеченцев[11][12][13][14][15][16][17]. Грузинский историк В. Н. Гамрекели утверждает, что «Дурдзук» определенно и, при всех его упоминаниях, единообразно локализуется, между Дидоэт-Дагестаном на востоке и ущельем реки Терека, на западе[18].
According to the saga of the Geoirgians, who embroider their genealogical table through Thargamos the Archfather Noah of the Mofaichen traditions, the inhabitants of Dzurdzukethi are said to belong to the oldest peoples of the Caucasus, and then they occupy the whole country, from the upper Terek to the border of the Lesghier, with deep names.
Much more often than the self-name of the Chechens, various ethnonyms of a collective nature are known in the written sources of the past, sometimes denoting Chechens and Ingush as a whole. Such are the Durzuks) (Durdzuki) of the Georgian chronicles - a term chronologically preceding the ethnonym of the (kistin).
The chronicle of 1204, in the story about the dispatch of troops by Queen Tamara against the rebellious mountaineers, lists the regions of Didoeti, Pkhoeti, i.e. Pshav-Khevsureti, and Durdzuketi (89, 88]. The latter region apparently included territories Since there is no doubt that in the 13th century this part of the Caucasus Mountains was inhabited by the Vainakhs, then, therefore, the term durdzuk of the Georgian sources of that time meant precisely the Chechen-Ingush tribes.
I didn't translate this text because I think you already know Russian as you use Russian sources but incase you don't, then you can quickly use a translator tool and translate the text. What we can see here is that Volkova says that during the 18th century the Durdzuk term became only used to refer to the Ingush and the country (Durdzuketi) was localized solely in Ingushetia. Regarding the Zurzakoy village, I still stand by my point that it's needs to be moved down. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 21:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)Этот термин не исчезает в Грузинской историографии XVIII столетия, хотя неизвестнен по доступным мне материалам в источниках XV—XVIII вв. Вахушти называет Дзурдзукети в числе других областей, связываемых им с территорией современной Ингушетии (Кистети, Джариехи, Глигвети). «Выше Кистети,»—пишет он,—находится Дзурзукия с постройками, селениями и башенями» [45, 151]. Если Кистетия помещалась им в среднем течении р. Армхи, то Дзурзукия находившаяся, по сведениям того же автора, выше (т. е. южнее Кистетии), Охкарохи, правого притока Терека, находящегося еще южнее Армхи. Таким образом, в грузинской литературе XVIII в. этническое содержание имени дурзуки (дзурзуки) по сравнению с источниками XI в. несколько изменилось: если в XI в. дурзуками именовали вайнахами в целом, то в XVIII столетии этим именем называли лишь часть народа, а именно его западные группы.
The ethnonym Durdzuki is also found in Arabic writings. It can be applied that in x century, to the knowledge of written sources, the ancestors of the Chechens and Ingush of the inquiry, were found as "yakhchamatyans", "kists" and "durdzuks"
this article is absolute mess. please provide direct citations. the only major credible source here are the Georgian chronicles. other sources are have no citations and they should be provided. if not the article must be cleaned up and only Georgian sources will stay. 2603:7000:3700:87E3:7CE9:1FE9:4107:D619 ( talk) 18:20, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
User:Muqale you have not provided the citation sources. and you should discuss on the talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:3700:87E3:6CA8:EEC5:A431:CAB7 ( talk) 19:19, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
An unsigned comment was added, I do not not who I am replying to. But the user with whom disussion was initiated is misusing the 'citation needed' tag in the article, also he removed big chunks of text and references, without valid cause. Sources are already verified, he just does not prefer them. -- Muqale ( talk) 19:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
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Dear colleagues, the primary sources do not specify the nature and origins of the Durdzuks but the article sees frequent WP:BOMBARD; WP:OR what should be avoided. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 13:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Franklin Benjamin 123, Niyskho, please discuss whether to include the disputed content here rather than edit warring. If you continue I'll request blocking the page. Alaexis ¿question? 16:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
There’s no need to discuss with Niyskho as he’s a fake “Ingush” propagandist who’s trying to divide Chechen and Ingush people and interpret history in his own way. Chechens and Ingush always had the same history and always will be brotherly nations no matter what you do or say. Chechens and Ingush were the same nation until modern times. You can quote your “authoritative” sources but we both know these sources aren’t reliable and probably were written by imperialists who wanted to cause division between us. Ingush are very good people and will always be brothers to us Chechens. Franklin Benjamin 123 ( talk) 06:43, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Blaze Wolf and Liz Please do something about Бекханов. Бекханов has only recently joined and instantly went on to vandalize the page which is very suspicious to me since it might be that he had other accounts where he did same thing. He wrote his own text without any source. He clearly has an agenda against Ingush people because he wrote "the Ingush and Batsbi, who have nothing to do with the Dzurdzuks". Not only that but he edited the Russian page about Durdzuks and wrote same thing. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 21:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Can you name those major sources please? I don't support phrasing it like that. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 10:29, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
I do agree with Reiner Gavriel version, there’s no doubt that Durdzuks were ancestors of both Chechens and Ingush peoples, so I don’t understand what’s the point of this localisation and saying that Durdzuks are only associated with Ingush people and not Chechens. Even in the source that mentions this says that it’s a very weak opinion. Franklin Benjamin 123 ( talk) 13:34, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Well if so then why not remove this text too: "others believe that during the Middle Ages the population of Chechnya was known to the South Caucasian peoples under the name "Durdzuks" (or "Dzurdzuks"), and the population of Ingushetia under the names "Gligvi", "giligii"? It also looks to me like an attempt to exclude the Ingush people. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 00:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Reiner Gavriel by the way do you know that Vakhushti Bagrationi excludes the Chechens completely? He wrote Chachans (Chechens) separate from the Durdzuketia. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 00:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Excuse me, but what city in the Sunzhensky district are we talking about? The ethnonym "Chechen" appeared from the village "Chechen-Aul" which was located a hundred kilometers from Sunzha on the border with Dagestan. Your theory that the Gligvs descended from the Dzurdzuks is unreliable, because if we refer to the same maps and records from Vakhushti Bagrationi, we will see that he considered the Gligvs, the Dzurdzuks to be one people, and the Chechens to be completely different, and Vakhushti is the most reliable source, since he is Georgian . Erzi Tower ( talk) 12:26, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Blaze Wolf and Liz, please pay attention to this problematic article, there is a vandal who vandalizes and rolls back the neutral version of this article, he destroys authoritative sources and refers only to some theories. Ingush Orsthoy ( talk) 18:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Reiner Gavriel I am awaiting proof for this statement. Please provide source material with page numbers. Muqale ( talk) 17:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Vakhushti clearly says "All these the gorges that we have described were originally Dzurdzuketia". Which gorges were described prior? Kisteti, Dzurdzuki and Gligvi. He also says "the name of Gligo (Ghligho), the grandson of Dzurdzuk". Nowhere does Vakhushti locate the tribes mostly in mountainous Ingushetia. Although his description is quite bad, he is precise about the Gligvi, not only does he locate them on the "Gligva river" and the village on this river, Angushti, he is also familiar with some of their customs and rules. He is aware about such information on the Gligvi, yet he differentiates them with Dzurdzuki and Kisteti. Reiner Gavriel ( talk) 20:44, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
@ WikiEditor1234567123 Do you know what unanimously means? Every single scholar, be they Chechen, Ingush, Russian, Soviet, Western or Georgian agree that Durdzuks is a term used for Chechens and Ingush, unless you have a source that says Durdzuks are Avars, Ossetians or another Caucasian people. ( Sextus Caedicius ( talk) 20:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC))
Historians link the Durdzuks to mountainous Ingushetia and identify them with the Ingush people,[10][11][12][13][14][15][16] others believe that in the period of the Middle Ages, the population of Chechnya was known to the South Caucasian peoples under the name "Durdzuks", or "Dzurdzuks" and the population of Ingushetia under the names "Glighvi", "Ghilighvi".[17][18][19] The Georgian historian V. N. Gamrekeli claims that "Durdzuk" is definitely and, with all its references, uniformly localized, between Didoeti-Dagestan in the east and the gorge of the Terek River, in the west.[20]
Одни исследователи локализуют дзурдзуков в горной Ингушетии и отождествляют с ингушами[1][2][3][4][5], другие считают что в период Средневековья южно-кавказским народам население Чечни известно под именем «дурдзуков», или «дзурдзуков»[6][7][8], а население Ингушетии под именами «Глигви», «гилигии»[9][10]. Другие же исследователи отождествляют их в общем с предками как ингушей, так и чеченцев[11][12][13][14][15][16][17]. Грузинский историк В. Н. Гамрекели утверждает, что «Дурдзук» определенно и, при всех его упоминаниях, единообразно локализуется, между Дидоэт-Дагестаном на востоке и ущельем реки Терека, на западе[18].
According to the saga of the Geoirgians, who embroider their genealogical table through Thargamos the Archfather Noah of the Mofaichen traditions, the inhabitants of Dzurdzukethi are said to belong to the oldest peoples of the Caucasus, and then they occupy the whole country, from the upper Terek to the border of the Lesghier, with deep names.
Much more often than the self-name of the Chechens, various ethnonyms of a collective nature are known in the written sources of the past, sometimes denoting Chechens and Ingush as a whole. Such are the Durzuks) (Durdzuki) of the Georgian chronicles - a term chronologically preceding the ethnonym of the (kistin).
The chronicle of 1204, in the story about the dispatch of troops by Queen Tamara against the rebellious mountaineers, lists the regions of Didoeti, Pkhoeti, i.e. Pshav-Khevsureti, and Durdzuketi (89, 88]. The latter region apparently included territories Since there is no doubt that in the 13th century this part of the Caucasus Mountains was inhabited by the Vainakhs, then, therefore, the term durdzuk of the Georgian sources of that time meant precisely the Chechen-Ingush tribes.
I didn't translate this text because I think you already know Russian as you use Russian sources but incase you don't, then you can quickly use a translator tool and translate the text. What we can see here is that Volkova says that during the 18th century the Durdzuk term became only used to refer to the Ingush and the country (Durdzuketi) was localized solely in Ingushetia. Regarding the Zurzakoy village, I still stand by my point that it's needs to be moved down. WikiEditor1234567123 ( talk) 21:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)Этот термин не исчезает в Грузинской историографии XVIII столетия, хотя неизвестнен по доступным мне материалам в источниках XV—XVIII вв. Вахушти называет Дзурдзукети в числе других областей, связываемых им с территорией современной Ингушетии (Кистети, Джариехи, Глигвети). «Выше Кистети,»—пишет он,—находится Дзурзукия с постройками, селениями и башенями» [45, 151]. Если Кистетия помещалась им в среднем течении р. Армхи, то Дзурзукия находившаяся, по сведениям того же автора, выше (т. е. южнее Кистетии), Охкарохи, правого притока Терека, находящегося еще южнее Армхи. Таким образом, в грузинской литературе XVIII в. этническое содержание имени дурзуки (дзурзуки) по сравнению с источниками XI в. несколько изменилось: если в XI в. дурзуками именовали вайнахами в целом, то в XVIII столетии этим именем называли лишь часть народа, а именно его западные группы.
The ethnonym Durdzuki is also found in Arabic writings. It can be applied that in x century, to the knowledge of written sources, the ancestors of the Chechens and Ingush of the inquiry, were found as "yakhchamatyans", "kists" and "durdzuks"
this article is absolute mess. please provide direct citations. the only major credible source here are the Georgian chronicles. other sources are have no citations and they should be provided. if not the article must be cleaned up and only Georgian sources will stay. 2603:7000:3700:87E3:7CE9:1FE9:4107:D619 ( talk) 18:20, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
User:Muqale you have not provided the citation sources. and you should discuss on the talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:3700:87E3:6CA8:EEC5:A431:CAB7 ( talk) 19:19, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
An unsigned comment was added, I do not not who I am replying to. But the user with whom disussion was initiated is misusing the 'citation needed' tag in the article, also he removed big chunks of text and references, without valid cause. Sources are already verified, he just does not prefer them. -- Muqale ( talk) 19:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)