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Good article, but a few things: I think it needs a short introduction to what druidism actually is. This just dives in, assuming that we already know. A few subheadings might be a good idea as well. Finally, please label the link somehow so readers can know in advance if they want to klick it or not. "S.A." is not very informative. -- Pinkunicorn
Odysses - it's misleading say that druides is derived from the Ancient Greek for oak. It's not a native Greek word, but a borrowing from another language which is probably derived from that language's word for oak. The two words for oak are cognate and derived from Indo-European roots, so they look similar, but that doesn't mean you can claim that "druid" is derived from a Greek word and is not a foreign borrowing. -- Nicknack009 16:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Odysses, I was assuming you were joking. If you are serious, you seem to be representing some viewpoints from the outer fringe of science. The "Stone Age" ends with the widespread use of
Bronze. Of course people were civilized long before they had a Bronze industry, and also long before the emergence of the Greek language. You may want to have a look at
Neolithisation,
Neolithic,
Chalcolithic,
Old European culture, and generally browse around
Category:Ancient history before you continue editing.
dab
(ᛏ) 11:46, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Indeed — WP is not a discussion form, and I am not even sure what point you are trying to make. You may want to try writing system or Middle_Bronze_Age_alphabets. You will need some sort of reference if you want to make a claim, in any case. dab (ᛏ) 11:13, 23 June 2005 (UTC)
In my experience, the term "Druidry" is most often employed by the OBOD – I believe it was actually coined by Ross Nichols. In order to invite contributions by (A) non-Druid scholars and (B) Druids not affiliated with the OBOD, would it not be preferable to move this article to Druidism? By-the-bye, what is the raison d'etre of this article as distinct from Neo-druidism and Druids? QuartierLatin1968 22:53, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well, Druid already exists as a disambiguation page – is that a good enough reason to use Druids instead? Alternatively, should we move Druid to Druid (disambiguation)? QuartierLatin1968 22:49, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What is the status of Strabo's suggestion that Druid != Celtic priest, i.e. that there were three kinds, of priests, druids, bards and vates? The bard article makes no mention, and the vates one I have only just created. Could/should this be compared with Vedic priesthood, Hotar, Adhvaryu, Udgatar? dab (ᛏ) 15:06, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes. That's the standard scholarly take. The Classical sources indicate such a tripart division, with a caveat: That is, bard/barddoi is a sub-class of the fili or poet class: oh heck, look here: http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/druid.html I swear, I really will work on this. Really. DigitalMedievalist 19:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) Lisa
DigitalMedievalist 16:57, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) Lisa
In which way does this section refer to Druids? IMHO, it refers to the same kinds of superstitions you found in medieaval Scandinavia. I will wait some time for arguments before I possibly remove it.-- Wiglaf 16:59, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While the following is from recognized sources:
«"The principal point of their doctrine", says Caesar, "is that the soul does not die and that after death it passes from one body into another" (see metempsychosis). This led several ancient writers to the unlikely conclusion that the druids must have been influenced by the teachings of the Greek philosopher Pythagoras.»
As mentioned on fr:Discuter:Druide, in Les Druides of Christian-Joseph Guyonvarc'h and Françoise Le Roux:
Gene.arboit 17:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I thought this note left at my Talkpage was too widely relevant not to be shared:
If this means that the British Museum's comments on modern misperceptions of druids are "POV" and lack neutrality—and by inference do not belong at Wikipedia— then it's a classic statement that belongs here at Talk:Druid. Doesn't this also have volumes to speak of "POV"? -- Wetman 19:31, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The British Museums comment on public misperceptions is fine, when used to describe misperceptions by the general public. It would be well placed in the introduction to the article, for example.
When used to describe all modern Druidry, on the other hand, it becomes POV because the target of the comment has been shifted. Its rather like taking a quote that says "the information on many Web pages is inaccurate or poorly researched" and then putting it on the Wikipedia front page as a cautionary quote.
So, the British Museum is not as you put it, POV. The misapplication of their quote in this particular context is, indeed, POV. -- Nantonos 20:51, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I made many revisions to a largely useful edit, but instead of defending each one, as I began to do, I figure they are self-evident, except that I reinstated the section Social and religious influence which was simply deleted by the anonymous editor. The section could use some improvement, I agree. I also reinstated the section on Modern Neodruidism with its Main article:... heading. Should it be briefer than it is? Our anonymous editor cut the Neodruid references, which must duplicate efforts at Neo-druidism. -- Wetman 22:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
how about either of these [3] [4] [5] -- date to 1845, from Old England: A Pictorial Museum of Regal, Ecclesiastical, Baronial, municipal and Popular Antiquities by Charles Knight [6]. dab (ᛏ) 18:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Extracted from http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/druidsp2/, reprinted in several places, it is quoting from what little survives of the Celtic traditions in writing, being re-quoted, for example, at the above site, among many others.
"In contrast, the áes dána(Gaelic: Aois-dàna) were artists and belonged to no tribes. They included bards (traveling poets/musicians), filí (household poets and historians), druids (Old Irish: druí), metal workers, and other artists /artisans. It has been proposed that the positions were hereditary and hence composed a caste-like system, but role did seem to include some social mobility, albeit early in life. Also, the children of druids were not always druids. For instance, Conchobar_mac_Nessa_ was the son of Cathbad and Nessa. He grew up to be king of Ulster."
The Druids were a caste, but not *strictly* hereditary, correcting Julius Caesar. One needed "The Gifts" to be a Druid, either inherited, or derived from coincidence at birth. One cannot be a "Bard", if one lacks the skills to produce quality music... or a "Seer", lacking the inner sight. And while an individuals parents having musical talent might imply a good probability that the individual will have musical talent, it does not guarantee it, such was the "caste" of the Druids. It often ran in families, but fortuitous birth wasn't overlooked, talent is talent.
Replace the "musical talent" in the above analysis, with "intelligence and predisposition to prescience", paralleling the distinction between the role of the bard and the druid sub-castes, and the "rules" of the hereditary role in the "caste" becomes evident, basic breeding. As noted above, the social mobility to enter into the caste often occurred at an early age, this gives evidence of correlating to the point at which the "talent" of an individual was recognized. This evidence thus furthers the clarification of the hereditary role in this seemingly oxymoronic "mobile caste" social infrastructure, described by Caesar, the caste lines were drawn by inherent skill sets, sometimes known as "native ability", which often, but not always, paralleled lineage".
A "reference material" quote, further supporting this caste system having a basis in hereditary lineage is found at:
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Celtic_Christianity
"Dyfrig taught Saint Illtud (c. 425 to c. 505), the founder of the great school/seminary/abbey of Llan Illtyd Fawr (English, "Llantwit Major") in the west of South Glamorgan. Illtud was considered the most learned person in Britain, expert alike in Maths, Grammar, Philosophy, Rhetoric and Scripture. He was “by descent a Druid and a fore knower of future events”, the writer implying that there was a Druid caste."
Such deliniations in "Cultural Specialization", or the more common term "Caste", apparently became an anthropological precursor, or foreshadowing, for the later Craft Guilds, which were discretely specialized in focus of work. Even " Surnames", when they gained popular use in the middle ages, often reflected the trade of a particular family, i.e. "The Miller's","The Taylor's". Of course, not all the family went into the "family trade", and even more confusing to genetic historians is unrelated individuals performing similar functions, in different regions, often carried the same "Surnames" although perhaps distorted by regional dialect. IE "Smiths", "Smythes", the later sounding the "y" as "I".
I am still seeking the original author of the Saint Illtud quote. If I can find it, I can weave this into the main article... I am seeking reference type material, not opinion, or "mysterious family lore".
The above quote appears over and over, in reference material around the world, yet not one mention of who originally penned the phrase “by descent a Druid and a fore knower of future events”, are we to assume that it was an unnamed historian of the abbey of Llan Illtyd Fawr ?
Of course, on a final note, there is a disambiguation on the term "hereditary", with respect to bards, evidenced in the quote below.
http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/IrishBardsBonwickDruids/index.php
Irish Bards
From "Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions" by James Bonwick, 1894
"There were hereditary bards, as the O'Shiels, the O'Canvans, &c., paid to sing the deeds of family heroes. A lament for Dalian ran--"
"A fine host and brave was he, master of and Governor, Ulla! Ullalu! We, thrice fifty Bards, we confessed him chief in song and war-- Ulla! Ullalu!"
"Hereditary Bards", are not always "Hereditary Bards"... One is "by Descent", the other specialized in a particular family's history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.74.22 ( talk) 15:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Should mention be made that people are calling Gore an Arch Druid? Mathiastck 18:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone seems to have meant to edit out a couple lines/paragraphs, and took out half the page by mystake, including the sources, external links and links to Wikipedias in other languages. I tried to restore it but leave out what I think that person might have meant to take out, but I'm not sure. If any of you people who know much about neo-druids feel the issue has been slighted in any way, feel free to add back in some of the stuff I deleted. - Kyle543 03:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that there was recently an edit and a revert regarding ADF. While I agree that ADF did not belong right next to OBOD (as the two operate under two completely different philosophies), perhaps ADF should be added to the Modern section to show that there are organizations not based upon the Romantic movements of the 19th century. -- Sidhebolg 07:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I have two questions which I would like answered: 1. Did druids "rule" or were they under somebody elses rule ie a lord. 2. Did druids conduct marriages, were they allowed to marry themselves or did they remain celebate? Thanks in advance!--(unsigned) pronounced (drood)
Thank you very much for your help! Who would have ruled back in those days? I dont mean royal I mean rulers of small areas ie barons etc. Thanks again. -- 89.56.173.245 10:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a question. Why doesn't it make any reference to The Undertaker's Druids? they could have at least a small amount of information on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.47.87.230 ( talk) 20:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Changed article spelling of Lughnassah to Lughnasadh, as it corresponds to the existing wiki article. (there is an alt spelling section on the Lughnasadh page under Etymology) It seems to me like having it link correctly seems the way to go.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Milovoo ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
Am I to understand that the Celts worshipped "Be'al" (an obvious similarity to Ba'el, the diety of the Caananites and an occasional reference to God) ? This is interesting considering that the Vikings apparently also had their mythological realm called "Nephelim" which is another Caananite reference to the Giants of the Old Testament. It would be NICE to see a citation or some kind of reference!!!-- 68.60.55.162 01:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I corrected the ba'el poster, as best I could. Bel, Belanus.... Be'al, is more from the Indian culture. 19th Century writers have tried to link Bel, to Baal... although very few scholars accept the relationship. While most writings flat out reject it, Baal of the Obelisk, and the Bel of the Maypoles, seem to exhibit a few points of "cultural congruity". "The Shining One", and "The Sun" , in conjunction with the tall upright objects like the Obelisk and Maypole may show "influence" between cultures.. However, there may be myriads of intervening cultures rather than a direct contact, or descendant. "Reflections of Reflections of Reflections", as I heard it said once. Etymologists are on a linguistic archeology hunt, and some of these "sounds alikes" are significant, and some not.
The Maypole is Germanic in origin, there is an interesting overlap of the Druids and the Germanic tribes.Their cultures traded elements, and shared territories. Remember, when the Pope decided to invade Germany, he did it with the cry that "Germany is filled with witches", when in fact, it was filled with Druids. I wonder, can Druids be called *strictly* Celtic, in origin ? I have my doubts. [RBI]
Looking through this, this article is actually really messed up. There is an ongoing confusion of the historical, Celtic druids with the fanatasies of the romantic revival. I'm going to try to fix a few of these, but don't have the time to do a thorough job on it right now. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 23:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, I read through and the problems aren't anywhere near as bad as I thought. I took out the opening bit about Stonehenge and Be'al. Why is "druids" capitalized as a default in this article? I'd also question the default of "druidry" in the cases where it would be more accurate to refer to Celtic religion. Still need to go through the links. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 23:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree, I didn't have the heart to take out the Stonehenge comment, although, it needed removing. I had tried to leave some remnant of the Bel comment, as there is a grain of truth to it. However, Be'al I suspect is a derivation of an Indian continent name... not Belenus. The poster who studies the Vedas was trying to tie Bel to Baal, a not uncommon, but also probably not accurate point. The Bel and Baal connection appears to be a 19th century fallacy, in origin. The Stone Henge fallacy dates to the 18th century, during the Druid revival. Any idea about *any* connections to stone circles ? Is there any truth in that, at all ? [RBI]
So, yeah, why are capitalizing "druid"? If there isn't a good reason I'm going to go through and fix it. Right now it's inconsistent. Also reiterating: Why are we defaulting to "druidry" vs. "Celtic religion"? ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 03:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It is commonly known that Caesar's accounting of the Druids is inaccurate among Druidic historians. There are many other accountings that show them in their correct light, so the statement that Caesar's writings are "the most accurate" is a complete falsehood and should be changed to read "as accurate as the time and Caesar's agenda for change for the eradication of the Druid culture can be." I will not make that change as I am a mere student and there are many who are more knowledgeable than I. As for ADF being in a "modern" section, shouldn't the modern section be included here or did I miss something? 24.136.66.15 19:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Brigid
The last sentences of the first section don't really seem to be composed from a neutral point of view - I don't know whether they're factually based but they're definitely not in the same style. 129.234.4.1 21:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article states that the Bards started supplanting Druidic duties in classical times and completely replaced them by Christian times. No source is given, and the "Citation Needed" has been there for quite some time. Since it was noted in earlier sections about classical writers referring to Bards as a sect of the Druid caste, I'm going to remove the offending statement for now. Cuindless 10:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
(user=Chaosa, not logged cause im also doing college work at college) Im not sure bout the revlance, but the info on this page refere mainly to the word druid, may i mention that there is a 35,000 year old religion druidism, this which predate all other people and religion currentley known on this planet. And they have also been linked to the stonhenge like formations in Africa. Also many have believed that they were world wide over 20 thousand years ago, which wouls suggest they could have been here fore the erecting of stne henge, but it is hard to tell with the occultic religions as we know have little records of them, thanks to the Christian, catholic and jewich people accross the world in mediaval ages, who wanted rid of all occultic and spiritualist peoples, me being spirirtualistic my self, know the true meaning is not religous.
This unsourced section should probably be moved to the Paganism article, or something on the history of the Low Countries themselves, as it seems to be about local (Germanic?) Pagan (or pagan) traditions, and not about druids at all:
But leaving it here for the record. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 00:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Just one little word in the section about Caesar where it says - "Caesar notes that all men of any rank and dignity in Gaul were included either among the Druids or among the nobles, indicating that they formed two classes." I believe this statement is referring to the line from De Bello Gallico Liber VI, XIII
Sed de his duobus generibus alterum est Druidum, alterum equitum
I'm know nothing about Latin, but equitum seems to imply knight, not noble. (Although knights were likely of he noble class.) In any case, it implies horseman, or something. Am I quibbling, or just wrong? I'll hold off on making any change, because I'm unsure how exactly I'd like this to read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mantator ( talk • contribs) 17:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The word 'equites' in Latin does literally refer to a horseman; however, the connotation in Roman society stemmed more from the idea of "someone rich enough to own a horse." As such, 'equites' developed into a Roman technical term for describing a kind of upper-middle/upper class formed by merchants, particularly. -Geoffrey Bain —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.225.45 ( talk) 03:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't want to get involved in a revert war, so I'll bring it here. Wetman, I think you're wrong to say that "Gaelic" is intended in the first paragraph, which defines the people the Greeks called Keltoi and Galatae, and the Romans called Celtae and Galli, in modern terms. "Gaelic" refers to a relatively recent Celtic subgroup derived from Ireland, and is not a "loose" term at all. I think the first paragraph probably needs re-writing to make it clear that Druidry was practised in Britain and Ireland as well as the continent, but trying to claim the ancient Gauls and Celts fall under the term "Gaelic" doesn't do it. -- Nicknack009 19:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi folks. The word Gael is derived from a Welsh word meaning "raiders", which was the term they used to describe pirates from Ireland. We did not seem to have any overall word for ourselves at the time, and the suggestion is that this was gradually applied to the nation as a whole.
Plus, remember that the terms Celt and Celtic refers to unrealted peoples who spoke related languages. Cheers. Fergananim
Just spent a few days in "talking circle" with people who are referred to as apaches, sioux, navajo, and moslem by others and often themselves. All of these words are essentially pejorative, usually meaning raiders or generalized bad dudes. Part of our circle discussion was various Indian and 'Celtic' acorn recipes. Cheers to you too: User:Mike Logghe
So, is anyone going to add an actual Celtic etymology of the word, or shall I check it out and add it? (Assuming that the 'Greek' discussion has now stopped trying to make whatever point it was making). -- Nantonos 22:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
How much of this is real anthropology and how much is just Geocities cut-n-paste? References would be appreciated. silsor 05:04, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)
I would add the following information to Druidry:
The Druids believed that trees were a sacred source of wisdom. They performed rituals and ceremonies in sacred groves of oak trees, and believed that the interior of the oak was where the spirit of the dead went.
Druids also used the black dye of Rowan for dyeing their ceremonial black robes, which they used for certain lunar ceremonies. They also lit fires of Rowan wood before battles, and incantations were spoken over the flames to summon spirits to take part in the fight and to combat evil forces. (Kornblatt)
There are in fact ways of researching this claim other than trying to find a non-existent reference in the literature. Recently while living on the Ucayali in Peru I encountered a young Irish woman who had been studying with a supposed shaman who was teaching her their methods of determining the medicinal and psychic properties of plants. Her intent was to return to Ireland and do this work with plants indigenous to Ireland. Possibly an enterprise in flapdoodle, but having become an afcionado of yage, I would bet more on her success than on your scepticism. I.e. don't burn all your mountain ash yet. In fact I have two in my back yard I had better spend some quality time with now that you mention it.
User:Timlane adds:There was thought to have been at least one Druidic University in Britain that taught many subjects including poetry, astronomy & the ancient Greek language. Is there anything to this (note the passive of non-attribution)? "University" is an anachronism of course. Wetman 23:47, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
DigitalMedievalist 04:07, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)Lisa
I just noticed this bit: "Of their oral literature of sacred songs, formulas for prayers and incantations, rules of divination and magic, not one line has survived"
It's odd in several ways, among them the reference to "lines," a print convention, (one would use verses for spoken poetry), but more particularly, if we ignore the "oral" context we most certainly do have prayers and incatations preserved in several Continental Celtic languages. DigitalMedievalist 02:00, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC) Lisa
" Druidic teaching center on Anglesey (Ynys Môn) centred on magical lakes that probably taught many subjects including poetry, astronomy & possibly even the ancient Greek language." Oi! I suppose any attempt to remove fantasy would hardly be worth the ensuing edit war... So hard to keep a "Druidry" entry sane and sound. Wetman 08:12, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
where do druids fit in the field of magic? i mean their name breaks down to magician, but how were they important in the history of magic-- Kobe2408 ( talk) 01:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Druids today seem to be covered in Neo-druidism and are mentioned a it later in the article, but shouldn't they be mentioned in the lede? Maybe a sentence like: "Druidry in its modern form is practised by neo-druids."? -- Conor ( talk) 16:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
"However, the druids left no written accounts of their own practices, so much of this hypothesis is complete speculation, as is most of the above article." Sounds really professional and encyclopedic, doesn't it? I'm just passing through the article, but is there some way to express the uncertainty and speculation (in fact, done earlier in the article) better than this, tongue-in-cheek as it may be? 98.215.48.213 ( talk) 22:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
"Despite neo-druidic believers, it is unknown whether or not women were historically allowed to serve as druids.[citation needed]"
Someone let me know how to cite the lack of knowledge. 216.37.249.35 ( talk) 21:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
This page says (correctly as I believe) that the English word is taken from Latin; Wiktionary claims it's taken from Old Irish; can they be reconciled by someone with access to a good dictionary? Marnanel ( talk) 21:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Wiktionary is wrong claims no such thing, and rightly so. The Old Irish term is a continuation of the Old Celtic term from which the Latin word was derived. The English word isn't taken from the Old Irish. The OED has the important note that "the English use follows the Latin sources, whence it was derived, rather than native Celtic usage". This is an important point to remember when dealing with terminological confusion. --
dab
(𒁳)
07:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The current etymology section is the result of naive perusal of assorted dictionaries. It is completely unaware of which points are certain and which are speculative. It could do with some expert attention. -- dab (𒁳) 08:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
if you dont know already its pronounced (drood) =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.242.178.244 ( talk) 16:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
It is well known that the Rig Veda is the oldest available texts of mankind. The rig veda has a graphic account of the fight between various families all desecended from a common ancestor called Bharata with the members of Anu and Druhyu clans up against the Yadus and Purus. The Druhyus are described as driven out of the north western part of India from where they migrated to far off lands. They are nevertheless believed to have carried some Vedic Brahminical practices. Hence the priestly castes and groups among the Druids. Some scholars have even pointed out that the word Brittania is in realty entymologically derived from the Sanskrit Bharata-tanuja meaning those born in the line of Bharata.The descendents of Anu settled around Iran. {{unsigned|Gv365|08:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)}
As someone who has studied Celtic Studies and Indian Culture, I see it as entirely possible that the Aryan vedic culture and the Celtic druidic culture could be interconnected, especially with the evidence of a stone-age culture stretching from France, through Spain and along the African northern coast all the way through the Mid-East and ending in northern India. This can be seen in the placement of early 'rock-house' shrines, probably connected to animistic ancestor worship mystery cults which predate written history, which can be found from Europe to the Near-East.
see Celts and Hindu and Celts and Aryans two books by Myles Dillon. 72.204.69.79 ( talk) 07:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The person who removed the "Pliny the Elder" citation for the source of the "sun, moon, and stars" deification, please pay attention. Wikipedia isn't cited, Pliny the Elder is/was cited as the source, Wikipedia just happens to have a copy of the original quote in the Coligny Calendar article. Thanks in advance.
When I seen the title, I thought it was hysterical. In College, the professors get quite upset if you use Wiki as a reference. The humor was found where Wiki did not like using Wiki as a reference either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deanthegreen ( talk • contribs) 18:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone keeps adding that there were female Druids to this article in the lead. The only evidence we have for Druidism is from Classical scholars, and they do not say anything about female Druids Electraawoman ( talk) 01:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)There are other sources, which is what I tried to cite, but the sources were deleted (the Miranda Green cite, Freeman discussed below, Ellis also). The classical writings only offer limited information on the Druids, and some do refer to druidesses. This is a faulty premise for concluding Druids were only male.
(yes, I know there is an 1824 that claims they did, but I have no idea). Trying to check out some of the claims from that book and a couple of neo-Druidism sites shows either nothing, or that the actual quote says 'prophetess', etc. Or that the Latin term 'Dryades' was used, which is not a Latin or Greek word meaning Druid.
Electraawoman ( talk) 02:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)I think dryades means "tree nymph", and I don't know the history of the translations, but Phillip Freeman, a classics professor, in "War, Women, & Druids: Eyewitness reports and Early Accounts," states on page 49, "The fourth century A.D. collection of imperial biographies known as the Historia Augusta contains three short passages involving Gaulish women called "Dryades" ("Druidesses")." His book then lists the 3 instances. I'm not a linquist and do not know the history of the translation, but I think a professor of classics should be considered as a source on the subject, and he translates it as "druidesses."
Strabo gets quoted as mentioning Druidesses who worshipped Bacchus, but he doesn't actually use the word Druidess. That there are later mentions of Druidesses is of course correct, but they come centuries after the period for which we have contemporary writers writing about Druids. Doug Weller ( talk) 14:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Electraawoman ( talk) 01:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)I, Natalie (electraawoman), keep adding that there were female druids. There is ample evidence, from scholarly research and including legends and folklore, of female druids. I included the cites to the scholarly articles discussing the existence of female druids in Cambridge Publications, British History publications, etc., but someone deleted the legitimate cites to legitimate scholarly articles and books. I have put them back into the page, as they are legitimate references. Lewis Spence is considered more of a Neo-Druidism writer, and his work is not scholarly or reviewed by academics. The gender comment appears biased and not based on scholarly research on the topic. Despite this, I did not delete the statement or the cite, as that would be very rude and defeats the purpose of allowing people to judge information based on their own research.
I got rid of the gender comment. Electraawoman ( talk) 01:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)The gender comment is still in the article. It has simply been moved lower in the article under "History." The gender statement is still on the page.
Although Lewis did get at least one review that I can find, I am happy to and have replaced that reference with one to Ron Hutton's book on Pagan religions.
Electraawoman ( talk) 01:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC) 66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)In response (from electraawoman): I did put the author's full name, Miranda Green, with the publishing company, Hudson & Thames, with the page number, in my original cite. I even linked to the page in the google books, p. 84 I believe ( I will check again), but that reference was deleted for no cause. That was my original frustration. My source was legitimate; it was not an opinion or incorrect information. It was information from a professor's book, written to discuss the Druids. The book is even listed in the further reading section on the same Wikipedia Druid page. It seems questionable to delete a cite to a recognized book on the subject. I will put the link back into the cite, with the page number, so that it links to the page in google books. I also linked to scholarly articles, with page numbers, that spoke to the topic. These were also deleted. These sources were not misinformation. I do not understand why they were deleted, several times.
66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)There is also no proof that there were not female druids. Lack of references to them in limited classical writings does not mean they did not exist. The limited references to the time period do not discuss every aspect of Druids. To make such a broad conclusion seems questionable. The classics were not the only sources of information. This is the faulty premise that concerns me. So, to make the assumption that there is no evidence of female druids based on classical accounts dismisses other sources. 66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
or at any time, as that is mythology and not contemporary report. So I've put that back in, rewording it slightly (I don't think you can have 'mythical legends'. 66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Electraawoman ( talk) 01:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Additionally, there is a reference to an aunt of "Ausonius", named Dryadia which means "druidess". As Ausonius' grandfather was banished by the Roman bishop of Rouen, this can be considered a reference from the Romans. Peter Berresford Ellis discusses this in "A Brief History of the Druids, p. 18. People may disagree on the translation. At any rate, and even if translations cause disagreement, "classical" references are not the only source discussing Druids, and to state that they were "only male" is a large assumption. Considering that very little concrete information has been found by archaeologists, it concerns me to see such a broad statement, especially when there are other sources that refer to female Druids, and those sources and cites are being deleted for no apparent cause.
66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)In response: I can agree to a cite from a recognized author. That is great. However, that does not mean that other recognized authors' viewpoints, publications, articles and sources can be deleted. It is understood that the Druids are hard to study and the evidence of their existence is hard to locate. I do not know to which authors Ron Hutton refers, but there are other respected authors that speak differently and discuss female druids. These should also be included.
I think the gender statement, since uncertain, should be removed completely. My scholarly sources say there were female druidesses. Yours say there were not. We should either include both statements, with sources for each, or simply remove the gender statement completely. By completely, I mean take it out of the entire article, not move it under history. Either way makes sense to me.
66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)I did not want to delete someone else's cite. I originally just marked "citation needed" when I first read the article. However, the first cite was by a questionable author, and it seemed strange to include that cite and delete cites to professors' publications. I think we can compromise and include both of our sources. That's the fascinating thing about Wikipedia and academia, many people coming together with different research and viewpoints. It makes all of us dig a little deeper. Thank you for responding. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
PLEASE READ WP:TALKPAGE and WP:TALK as you have really messed this section up and it is extremely hard to see what I wrote and what you wrote. Hutton is talking about Roman and Greek period authors.
Electraawoman ( talk) 17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)Again, Ellis is a renowned classics professor. And even he acknowledges that there is a reference to an aunt of "Ausonius", named Dryadia which means "druidess". As Ausonius' grandfather was banished by the Roman bishop of Rouen, this can be considered a reference from the Romans. Peter Berresford Ellis discusses this in "A Brief History of the Druids, p. 18. I did not "mess up this site." I merely included cites from respected authors. I assume that is a goal. And again, they were deleted.
Your 1824 book is not a 'scholarly source'. I don't know what else besides Miranda Green and Ellis you see as scholarly. Doug Weller ( talk) 03:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Electraawoman ( talk) 17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)It is a legitimate published book, in addition to the myriad of scholarly cites I discussed above, and included in the article, which were then deleted.
Electraawoman (
talk)
17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)The later myths and oral traditions of the people of the region are as valuable as the Classical accounts. The Greeks and Romans were known for their misunderstanding and condescension towards the Druids. They are certainly not the ultimate guide on Druids.
Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 6: V. 6 By James Hastings p. 790 briefly discusses later mentions of Dryades, saying that they appear to be only sorceresses.
Druids Or a Study in Celtic Prehistory: A Study in Keltic Prehistory By T. D. Kendrick p 96
"One asks, of course, whether this reference to dryades, or druidesses. really constitutes legitimate evidence of the survival of druids and druidism in the 3rd century. All that we know about these women is that they were fortune-tellers, such as we might find among many peoples, and ii is possible that the name dryades. or some form of name like it, was bestowed on them by these two authors through a misapprehension based 011 mi imperfect knowledge of the status and functions of the true druids. They might have represented, in fact, to the uncritical eyes of the biographers of the emperors, the remaining Keltic exponents of a known druidic practice ol earlier times, that is divination ; and so might have been called druidesses. regardless of the question of their actual connection with the real druidic order.
A more serious consideration is that there is some slight evidence of the existence among the continental Kelts of priestesses in the proper sense of the word (p. 140). and these were not, to our knowledge, called druids or druidesses. We cannot assume, therefore, that anyone performing a religious rite, or practising divination, in the Keltic lands was a member of the druidic order." Doug Weller ( talk) 20:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Electraawoman ( talk) 17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)None of this justifies a blanket, concrete statement that Druids were only male. There are too many conflicting sources and viewpoints.
From The Druids by Peter Berresford Ellis, "Several Greek and Latin writers speak od Dryades or Druidessess, and the existence of such female Druids is certainly confirmed by Celtic sources. One has to bear on mind the fascinating role of women in Celtic society as opposed to their position in other European cultures. The rights and position of Celtic women far exceeded those of Greece or Rome." 72.204.69.79 ( talk) 06:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
About female druids, I found this article -- http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/femdruids/ leaflord ( talk) 17:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
The statement about druids disappearing from written records after the 2nd century A.D. is patently untrue. Ausonius mentions druids in the 4th century -- nostalgically, perhaps, but in reference to having druidic heritage. Druids appear in the literature of early medieval Ireland, and the stories of St. Patrick confronting druids seem to have a historical basis. Cynwolfe ( talk) 16:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
the early medieval references to "Insular Druids" are a case apart, and we treat them under "Late druidic survivals". Afaik, most scholars think they are baseless and inspired by Roman ethnography.
In Gaul, the druids had essentially disappeared by the 1st century CE. Ausonius may be a notable exception in that he "nostalgically" reminisces about druidic heritage in the 4th century. Confirming that druidry in his time had long ceased to be a living tradition. -- dab (𒁳) 09:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I have tried to make clear that the association of Britain with druidism rests on two pieces of evidence:
That's it. Obviously, the British did have some sort of religion, administered by some sort of priesthood, like any other pagan society, but the above is the only evidence that this should in any way be considered cognate or indeed identical to the Gaulish class of philosophers. -- dab (𒁳) 09:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
people trying to make a big deal of the reports on human sacrifice being hostile Roman propaganda should be aware that human sacrifice was practiced in pretty much every Iron Age culture as a matter of course. Not frequently, not to the point of blood-thirsty excess, but as a form of highest ritual to be resorted to in very special cases. This is well documented in the human sacrifice article. Case in point, human sacrifice was outlawed in Rome itself in 97 BCE, all of 50 years before druidism was penalized for human sacrifice under Tiberius. Gladiatorial combat, abolished as late as the 5th century CE, originated as a form of human sacrifice. In the wider context of Iron Age religion, it is really rather unremarkable that the druids should have performed human sacrifice. The question is, were these sacrifices particularly cruel or frequent, as the Romans seem to imply, or did Roman writers just opt to make a big deal of an ethnographic factoid in the service of some agenda of their own. Referenced academic opinion on this point would be highly welcome, but can we please do without the fluffy "they were peaceful tree-huggers vilified by the evil Roman imperialsts" apologetics. -- dab (𒁳) 09:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I see we have a dedicated Celts and human sacrifice article. It's not very good and could do with some attention. -- dab (𒁳) 10:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
There's no such book. I'm wondering if another writer has been confused about the title of one of Cunliffe's books and that this may have come from that other writer. Dougweller ( talk) 21:10, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
The Romans outlawed druidism. The article has been aware of that for ages. It is also a truism that a purely oral tradition will go extinct irretrievably as soon as the tradition is broken for the first time. However, the implication of "ethnic cleansing" and of the Romans hunting down the druid clergy Spanish-Inquisition-style is preposterous. If that turns out to be the content of the Cunliffe reference, the article will still only say "in the opinion of Cunliffe (1987)", since that is certainly far from any mainstream assessment of the situation. But before it comes to that, let's see a verbatim quote. It would seem far more likely that Cunliffe is simply being misrepresented. -- dab (𒁳) 05:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The "Lebor Feasa Runda" is apparently [9] [10] [11] a self-published book purporting to be an English translation of a German translation of an alleged Gaelic text that was lost. I wonder how the book's author can pretend his "translation" had been "highly anticipated" considering that nobody had never even heard of this text. This is, not to put too fine a point on it, complete bollocks, and probably does not deserve mention in this, or any other, Wikipedia article. -- dab (𒁳) 19:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
lol, I got him. He made it all up. here he is kind enough to post an excerpt of his English translation of the alleged German "original". He is busted in line 1, revealing that he doesn't know any German, as his German "original" is actually a machine translation of his English "translation".
"Dämmerung des Alters" is a machine translation of the English expression "dawn of the ages", impossible in German. wertlos aber die Tiefen is again a machine translation of "nought but the depths", completely ungrammatical and even comic in German. I don't know what translaton software would come up with beträchtlich ("considerable") for vast, but that is already a marginal concern at this point.
Now I don't mind WP:FRINGE frauds, but if you're going to press with your fraud, you should at least put some effort into it. This is a fraud of such abysmal quality that it takes an educated person about 30 seconds to see through it and about ten minutes to lose interest in it even as a fraud. -- dab (𒁳) 11:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
"late survival" as in 7th century, not 12th century, not to mention 15th century. Obviously pagan tradition morphed into folklore everywhere in Europe, but that's not "survival of druidism". By AD 700, both Ireland and Great Britain were unambiguously Christian.
The "persecution of bards" in the high middle ages would properly belong on the bard article. There is no harm in mentioning bards here, but our article still claims
without giving us any reference as to who these "writers" may be. On the face of it, a bard is not a druid, and a seer is not a druid, even though he may be referred to as dryw in Welsh (otherwise we could claim that the Roman Catholic Church is a "survival of Roman paganism" by virtue of the title sacerdos). It there is a hypothesis of "survival of druidism" in Welsh seers of the high or even late medieval period, that would be very interesting, but it would also need to be attributed. -- dab (𒁳) 12:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it is fair to mention "bards and seers", but details on the "persecution of bards" in medieval Wales evidently belongs on the bard article. I am not sure what to do with dryw "seer", there may be an article in this, but we need better references. It may conceivably also be a section here, same as fáith redirects to Vates. -- dab (𒁳) 10:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Concerning dryw as the name of Regulidae or Troglodytidae (which is it?) and druidic augury, this is something that popped up with google as I compiled the paragraph, but I didn't pursue it. Still needs to be done properly. -- dab (𒁳) 15:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
hm, we lost Regulus there, but at commons:Regulus_ignicapillus I find a Welsh name Dryw Penfflamgoch, while commons:Troglodytes troglodytes has simple Dryw. It would seem to be correct that both Regulus and Troglodytes are called Dryw in Welsh, but the wren is "the" dryw, while the firecrest is the "red-headed dryw". -- dab (𒁳) 13:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
wait a minute, I just note that penfflamgoch is in fact a translation of ignicapillus, while kinglet is a translation of regulus (or is regulus a translation of kinglet??), while the word wren is in fact a loan from a Celtic word that would have meant as much as kinglet. Also, how can the English name of the wren be a Celtic loan when the bird is called dryw in Welsh and dreoilín in Irish? This has probably very little to do with the topic of "Druid" or even dryw, but it calls for further investigation. Somewhere down the line, there must have been a confusion of wrens with kinglets. Consiering that one is an unsightly brown colour while the other is blazing yellow, I wonder if the Celts had a tradition of using blind men for augury. But maybe the "Celtic loan" theory is simply wrong, at least OED is unaware of it, stating that wren is "obscurely related to OHG. wrendo, wrendilo, Icel. rindill". -- dab (𒁳) 15:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
If the suppression of Druidism in Britain is ascribed to the Romans, as no such authority existed in Ireland their continuing existence there until the advent of Christianity is more than likely. His 7th century biographers record the druids as adversaries of the 5th century Christian missionary St Patrick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikpandha181 ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
The classic role of a Druid in the life of a medieval Irish saint was as an evil pagan magician, who is defeated by the hero of the hagiography, using the power of the true god, and so is either killed or converted In the words of the editor of Irish saints' lives, Charles Plummer, 'they meet us at every turn as the chief, if not the only, opponents of the new faith'. They appear as such in the earliest Irish literature and play the same part into the seventeenth century, falling foul of a succession of Christian holy men of whom the first and greatest was Patrick himself. They are his main opponents in Muirchu's life of the saint, which was written in the late seventh century and as such is one of the oldest surviving Irish texts. It describes how Patrick confronted the high king Loegaire, whom he found surrounded by different kinds of magicians and soothsayers to whom Muirchii gave various Latin brand names. Of these, the magi were those commonly translated by scholars as Druids. They were certainly the most important and the most hostile to Patrick, who defeated them with a series of miracles in the course of which their two leaders perished. Muirchii makes plain, however, that he is not merely, or even primarily, recounting a native tradition but seeking to assimilate Patrick to the great figures of Christian literature. He expressly compares Loegaire to the biblical king Nebuchadnezzar, who kept court magicians, and Patrick's duel with one of them to St Peter's contest with Simon Magus. Another parallel, this time implicit, is with Elijah opposing the priests of Baal. Significantly, we possess two actual letters written by the historical Patrick about the nature of his mission, over two centuries before Muirchu's time. They never mention Druids, nor dramatic confrontations at Tara: his problems are all with local kings or hostile fellow Christians.
« The earliest record of the name druidae (Δρυΐδαι) is reported from a lost work of the Greek doxographer Sotion of Alexandria (early 2nd century BCE), who was cited by Diogenes Laertius in the 3rd century CE. » has been tagged {{ jargon}}. Why? — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 19:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Good article, but a few things: I think it needs a short introduction to what druidism actually is. This just dives in, assuming that we already know. A few subheadings might be a good idea as well. Finally, please label the link somehow so readers can know in advance if they want to klick it or not. "S.A." is not very informative. -- Pinkunicorn
Odysses - it's misleading say that druides is derived from the Ancient Greek for oak. It's not a native Greek word, but a borrowing from another language which is probably derived from that language's word for oak. The two words for oak are cognate and derived from Indo-European roots, so they look similar, but that doesn't mean you can claim that "druid" is derived from a Greek word and is not a foreign borrowing. -- Nicknack009 16:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Odysses, I was assuming you were joking. If you are serious, you seem to be representing some viewpoints from the outer fringe of science. The "Stone Age" ends with the widespread use of
Bronze. Of course people were civilized long before they had a Bronze industry, and also long before the emergence of the Greek language. You may want to have a look at
Neolithisation,
Neolithic,
Chalcolithic,
Old European culture, and generally browse around
Category:Ancient history before you continue editing.
dab
(ᛏ) 11:46, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Indeed — WP is not a discussion form, and I am not even sure what point you are trying to make. You may want to try writing system or Middle_Bronze_Age_alphabets. You will need some sort of reference if you want to make a claim, in any case. dab (ᛏ) 11:13, 23 June 2005 (UTC)
In my experience, the term "Druidry" is most often employed by the OBOD – I believe it was actually coined by Ross Nichols. In order to invite contributions by (A) non-Druid scholars and (B) Druids not affiliated with the OBOD, would it not be preferable to move this article to Druidism? By-the-bye, what is the raison d'etre of this article as distinct from Neo-druidism and Druids? QuartierLatin1968 22:53, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Well, Druid already exists as a disambiguation page – is that a good enough reason to use Druids instead? Alternatively, should we move Druid to Druid (disambiguation)? QuartierLatin1968 22:49, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What is the status of Strabo's suggestion that Druid != Celtic priest, i.e. that there were three kinds, of priests, druids, bards and vates? The bard article makes no mention, and the vates one I have only just created. Could/should this be compared with Vedic priesthood, Hotar, Adhvaryu, Udgatar? dab (ᛏ) 15:06, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes. That's the standard scholarly take. The Classical sources indicate such a tripart division, with a caveat: That is, bard/barddoi is a sub-class of the fili or poet class: oh heck, look here: http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/druid.html I swear, I really will work on this. Really. DigitalMedievalist 19:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) Lisa
DigitalMedievalist 16:57, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) Lisa
In which way does this section refer to Druids? IMHO, it refers to the same kinds of superstitions you found in medieaval Scandinavia. I will wait some time for arguments before I possibly remove it.-- Wiglaf 16:59, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While the following is from recognized sources:
«"The principal point of their doctrine", says Caesar, "is that the soul does not die and that after death it passes from one body into another" (see metempsychosis). This led several ancient writers to the unlikely conclusion that the druids must have been influenced by the teachings of the Greek philosopher Pythagoras.»
As mentioned on fr:Discuter:Druide, in Les Druides of Christian-Joseph Guyonvarc'h and Françoise Le Roux:
Gene.arboit 17:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I thought this note left at my Talkpage was too widely relevant not to be shared:
If this means that the British Museum's comments on modern misperceptions of druids are "POV" and lack neutrality—and by inference do not belong at Wikipedia— then it's a classic statement that belongs here at Talk:Druid. Doesn't this also have volumes to speak of "POV"? -- Wetman 19:31, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The British Museums comment on public misperceptions is fine, when used to describe misperceptions by the general public. It would be well placed in the introduction to the article, for example.
When used to describe all modern Druidry, on the other hand, it becomes POV because the target of the comment has been shifted. Its rather like taking a quote that says "the information on many Web pages is inaccurate or poorly researched" and then putting it on the Wikipedia front page as a cautionary quote.
So, the British Museum is not as you put it, POV. The misapplication of their quote in this particular context is, indeed, POV. -- Nantonos 20:51, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I made many revisions to a largely useful edit, but instead of defending each one, as I began to do, I figure they are self-evident, except that I reinstated the section Social and religious influence which was simply deleted by the anonymous editor. The section could use some improvement, I agree. I also reinstated the section on Modern Neodruidism with its Main article:... heading. Should it be briefer than it is? Our anonymous editor cut the Neodruid references, which must duplicate efforts at Neo-druidism. -- Wetman 22:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
how about either of these [3] [4] [5] -- date to 1845, from Old England: A Pictorial Museum of Regal, Ecclesiastical, Baronial, municipal and Popular Antiquities by Charles Knight [6]. dab (ᛏ) 18:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Extracted from http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/druidsp2/, reprinted in several places, it is quoting from what little survives of the Celtic traditions in writing, being re-quoted, for example, at the above site, among many others.
"In contrast, the áes dána(Gaelic: Aois-dàna) were artists and belonged to no tribes. They included bards (traveling poets/musicians), filí (household poets and historians), druids (Old Irish: druí), metal workers, and other artists /artisans. It has been proposed that the positions were hereditary and hence composed a caste-like system, but role did seem to include some social mobility, albeit early in life. Also, the children of druids were not always druids. For instance, Conchobar_mac_Nessa_ was the son of Cathbad and Nessa. He grew up to be king of Ulster."
The Druids were a caste, but not *strictly* hereditary, correcting Julius Caesar. One needed "The Gifts" to be a Druid, either inherited, or derived from coincidence at birth. One cannot be a "Bard", if one lacks the skills to produce quality music... or a "Seer", lacking the inner sight. And while an individuals parents having musical talent might imply a good probability that the individual will have musical talent, it does not guarantee it, such was the "caste" of the Druids. It often ran in families, but fortuitous birth wasn't overlooked, talent is talent.
Replace the "musical talent" in the above analysis, with "intelligence and predisposition to prescience", paralleling the distinction between the role of the bard and the druid sub-castes, and the "rules" of the hereditary role in the "caste" becomes evident, basic breeding. As noted above, the social mobility to enter into the caste often occurred at an early age, this gives evidence of correlating to the point at which the "talent" of an individual was recognized. This evidence thus furthers the clarification of the hereditary role in this seemingly oxymoronic "mobile caste" social infrastructure, described by Caesar, the caste lines were drawn by inherent skill sets, sometimes known as "native ability", which often, but not always, paralleled lineage".
A "reference material" quote, further supporting this caste system having a basis in hereditary lineage is found at:
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Celtic_Christianity
"Dyfrig taught Saint Illtud (c. 425 to c. 505), the founder of the great school/seminary/abbey of Llan Illtyd Fawr (English, "Llantwit Major") in the west of South Glamorgan. Illtud was considered the most learned person in Britain, expert alike in Maths, Grammar, Philosophy, Rhetoric and Scripture. He was “by descent a Druid and a fore knower of future events”, the writer implying that there was a Druid caste."
Such deliniations in "Cultural Specialization", or the more common term "Caste", apparently became an anthropological precursor, or foreshadowing, for the later Craft Guilds, which were discretely specialized in focus of work. Even " Surnames", when they gained popular use in the middle ages, often reflected the trade of a particular family, i.e. "The Miller's","The Taylor's". Of course, not all the family went into the "family trade", and even more confusing to genetic historians is unrelated individuals performing similar functions, in different regions, often carried the same "Surnames" although perhaps distorted by regional dialect. IE "Smiths", "Smythes", the later sounding the "y" as "I".
I am still seeking the original author of the Saint Illtud quote. If I can find it, I can weave this into the main article... I am seeking reference type material, not opinion, or "mysterious family lore".
The above quote appears over and over, in reference material around the world, yet not one mention of who originally penned the phrase “by descent a Druid and a fore knower of future events”, are we to assume that it was an unnamed historian of the abbey of Llan Illtyd Fawr ?
Of course, on a final note, there is a disambiguation on the term "hereditary", with respect to bards, evidenced in the quote below.
http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/IrishBardsBonwickDruids/index.php
Irish Bards
From "Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions" by James Bonwick, 1894
"There were hereditary bards, as the O'Shiels, the O'Canvans, &c., paid to sing the deeds of family heroes. A lament for Dalian ran--"
"A fine host and brave was he, master of and Governor, Ulla! Ullalu! We, thrice fifty Bards, we confessed him chief in song and war-- Ulla! Ullalu!"
"Hereditary Bards", are not always "Hereditary Bards"... One is "by Descent", the other specialized in a particular family's history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.74.22 ( talk) 15:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Should mention be made that people are calling Gore an Arch Druid? Mathiastck 18:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone seems to have meant to edit out a couple lines/paragraphs, and took out half the page by mystake, including the sources, external links and links to Wikipedias in other languages. I tried to restore it but leave out what I think that person might have meant to take out, but I'm not sure. If any of you people who know much about neo-druids feel the issue has been slighted in any way, feel free to add back in some of the stuff I deleted. - Kyle543 03:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that there was recently an edit and a revert regarding ADF. While I agree that ADF did not belong right next to OBOD (as the two operate under two completely different philosophies), perhaps ADF should be added to the Modern section to show that there are organizations not based upon the Romantic movements of the 19th century. -- Sidhebolg 07:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I have two questions which I would like answered: 1. Did druids "rule" or were they under somebody elses rule ie a lord. 2. Did druids conduct marriages, were they allowed to marry themselves or did they remain celebate? Thanks in advance!--(unsigned) pronounced (drood)
Thank you very much for your help! Who would have ruled back in those days? I dont mean royal I mean rulers of small areas ie barons etc. Thanks again. -- 89.56.173.245 10:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a question. Why doesn't it make any reference to The Undertaker's Druids? they could have at least a small amount of information on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.47.87.230 ( talk) 20:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Changed article spelling of Lughnassah to Lughnasadh, as it corresponds to the existing wiki article. (there is an alt spelling section on the Lughnasadh page under Etymology) It seems to me like having it link correctly seems the way to go.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Milovoo ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
Am I to understand that the Celts worshipped "Be'al" (an obvious similarity to Ba'el, the diety of the Caananites and an occasional reference to God) ? This is interesting considering that the Vikings apparently also had their mythological realm called "Nephelim" which is another Caananite reference to the Giants of the Old Testament. It would be NICE to see a citation or some kind of reference!!!-- 68.60.55.162 01:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I corrected the ba'el poster, as best I could. Bel, Belanus.... Be'al, is more from the Indian culture. 19th Century writers have tried to link Bel, to Baal... although very few scholars accept the relationship. While most writings flat out reject it, Baal of the Obelisk, and the Bel of the Maypoles, seem to exhibit a few points of "cultural congruity". "The Shining One", and "The Sun" , in conjunction with the tall upright objects like the Obelisk and Maypole may show "influence" between cultures.. However, there may be myriads of intervening cultures rather than a direct contact, or descendant. "Reflections of Reflections of Reflections", as I heard it said once. Etymologists are on a linguistic archeology hunt, and some of these "sounds alikes" are significant, and some not.
The Maypole is Germanic in origin, there is an interesting overlap of the Druids and the Germanic tribes.Their cultures traded elements, and shared territories. Remember, when the Pope decided to invade Germany, he did it with the cry that "Germany is filled with witches", when in fact, it was filled with Druids. I wonder, can Druids be called *strictly* Celtic, in origin ? I have my doubts. [RBI]
Looking through this, this article is actually really messed up. There is an ongoing confusion of the historical, Celtic druids with the fanatasies of the romantic revival. I'm going to try to fix a few of these, but don't have the time to do a thorough job on it right now. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 23:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, I read through and the problems aren't anywhere near as bad as I thought. I took out the opening bit about Stonehenge and Be'al. Why is "druids" capitalized as a default in this article? I'd also question the default of "druidry" in the cases where it would be more accurate to refer to Celtic religion. Still need to go through the links. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 23:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree, I didn't have the heart to take out the Stonehenge comment, although, it needed removing. I had tried to leave some remnant of the Bel comment, as there is a grain of truth to it. However, Be'al I suspect is a derivation of an Indian continent name... not Belenus. The poster who studies the Vedas was trying to tie Bel to Baal, a not uncommon, but also probably not accurate point. The Bel and Baal connection appears to be a 19th century fallacy, in origin. The Stone Henge fallacy dates to the 18th century, during the Druid revival. Any idea about *any* connections to stone circles ? Is there any truth in that, at all ? [RBI]
So, yeah, why are capitalizing "druid"? If there isn't a good reason I'm going to go through and fix it. Right now it's inconsistent. Also reiterating: Why are we defaulting to "druidry" vs. "Celtic religion"? ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 03:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It is commonly known that Caesar's accounting of the Druids is inaccurate among Druidic historians. There are many other accountings that show them in their correct light, so the statement that Caesar's writings are "the most accurate" is a complete falsehood and should be changed to read "as accurate as the time and Caesar's agenda for change for the eradication of the Druid culture can be." I will not make that change as I am a mere student and there are many who are more knowledgeable than I. As for ADF being in a "modern" section, shouldn't the modern section be included here or did I miss something? 24.136.66.15 19:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Brigid
The last sentences of the first section don't really seem to be composed from a neutral point of view - I don't know whether they're factually based but they're definitely not in the same style. 129.234.4.1 21:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article states that the Bards started supplanting Druidic duties in classical times and completely replaced them by Christian times. No source is given, and the "Citation Needed" has been there for quite some time. Since it was noted in earlier sections about classical writers referring to Bards as a sect of the Druid caste, I'm going to remove the offending statement for now. Cuindless 10:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
(user=Chaosa, not logged cause im also doing college work at college) Im not sure bout the revlance, but the info on this page refere mainly to the word druid, may i mention that there is a 35,000 year old religion druidism, this which predate all other people and religion currentley known on this planet. And they have also been linked to the stonhenge like formations in Africa. Also many have believed that they were world wide over 20 thousand years ago, which wouls suggest they could have been here fore the erecting of stne henge, but it is hard to tell with the occultic religions as we know have little records of them, thanks to the Christian, catholic and jewich people accross the world in mediaval ages, who wanted rid of all occultic and spiritualist peoples, me being spirirtualistic my self, know the true meaning is not religous.
This unsourced section should probably be moved to the Paganism article, or something on the history of the Low Countries themselves, as it seems to be about local (Germanic?) Pagan (or pagan) traditions, and not about druids at all:
But leaving it here for the record. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 00:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Just one little word in the section about Caesar where it says - "Caesar notes that all men of any rank and dignity in Gaul were included either among the Druids or among the nobles, indicating that they formed two classes." I believe this statement is referring to the line from De Bello Gallico Liber VI, XIII
Sed de his duobus generibus alterum est Druidum, alterum equitum
I'm know nothing about Latin, but equitum seems to imply knight, not noble. (Although knights were likely of he noble class.) In any case, it implies horseman, or something. Am I quibbling, or just wrong? I'll hold off on making any change, because I'm unsure how exactly I'd like this to read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mantator ( talk • contribs) 17:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The word 'equites' in Latin does literally refer to a horseman; however, the connotation in Roman society stemmed more from the idea of "someone rich enough to own a horse." As such, 'equites' developed into a Roman technical term for describing a kind of upper-middle/upper class formed by merchants, particularly. -Geoffrey Bain —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.225.45 ( talk) 03:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't want to get involved in a revert war, so I'll bring it here. Wetman, I think you're wrong to say that "Gaelic" is intended in the first paragraph, which defines the people the Greeks called Keltoi and Galatae, and the Romans called Celtae and Galli, in modern terms. "Gaelic" refers to a relatively recent Celtic subgroup derived from Ireland, and is not a "loose" term at all. I think the first paragraph probably needs re-writing to make it clear that Druidry was practised in Britain and Ireland as well as the continent, but trying to claim the ancient Gauls and Celts fall under the term "Gaelic" doesn't do it. -- Nicknack009 19:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi folks. The word Gael is derived from a Welsh word meaning "raiders", which was the term they used to describe pirates from Ireland. We did not seem to have any overall word for ourselves at the time, and the suggestion is that this was gradually applied to the nation as a whole.
Plus, remember that the terms Celt and Celtic refers to unrealted peoples who spoke related languages. Cheers. Fergananim
Just spent a few days in "talking circle" with people who are referred to as apaches, sioux, navajo, and moslem by others and often themselves. All of these words are essentially pejorative, usually meaning raiders or generalized bad dudes. Part of our circle discussion was various Indian and 'Celtic' acorn recipes. Cheers to you too: User:Mike Logghe
So, is anyone going to add an actual Celtic etymology of the word, or shall I check it out and add it? (Assuming that the 'Greek' discussion has now stopped trying to make whatever point it was making). -- Nantonos 22:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
How much of this is real anthropology and how much is just Geocities cut-n-paste? References would be appreciated. silsor 05:04, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)
I would add the following information to Druidry:
The Druids believed that trees were a sacred source of wisdom. They performed rituals and ceremonies in sacred groves of oak trees, and believed that the interior of the oak was where the spirit of the dead went.
Druids also used the black dye of Rowan for dyeing their ceremonial black robes, which they used for certain lunar ceremonies. They also lit fires of Rowan wood before battles, and incantations were spoken over the flames to summon spirits to take part in the fight and to combat evil forces. (Kornblatt)
There are in fact ways of researching this claim other than trying to find a non-existent reference in the literature. Recently while living on the Ucayali in Peru I encountered a young Irish woman who had been studying with a supposed shaman who was teaching her their methods of determining the medicinal and psychic properties of plants. Her intent was to return to Ireland and do this work with plants indigenous to Ireland. Possibly an enterprise in flapdoodle, but having become an afcionado of yage, I would bet more on her success than on your scepticism. I.e. don't burn all your mountain ash yet. In fact I have two in my back yard I had better spend some quality time with now that you mention it.
User:Timlane adds:There was thought to have been at least one Druidic University in Britain that taught many subjects including poetry, astronomy & the ancient Greek language. Is there anything to this (note the passive of non-attribution)? "University" is an anachronism of course. Wetman 23:47, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
DigitalMedievalist 04:07, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)Lisa
I just noticed this bit: "Of their oral literature of sacred songs, formulas for prayers and incantations, rules of divination and magic, not one line has survived"
It's odd in several ways, among them the reference to "lines," a print convention, (one would use verses for spoken poetry), but more particularly, if we ignore the "oral" context we most certainly do have prayers and incatations preserved in several Continental Celtic languages. DigitalMedievalist 02:00, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC) Lisa
" Druidic teaching center on Anglesey (Ynys Môn) centred on magical lakes that probably taught many subjects including poetry, astronomy & possibly even the ancient Greek language." Oi! I suppose any attempt to remove fantasy would hardly be worth the ensuing edit war... So hard to keep a "Druidry" entry sane and sound. Wetman 08:12, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
where do druids fit in the field of magic? i mean their name breaks down to magician, but how were they important in the history of magic-- Kobe2408 ( talk) 01:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Druids today seem to be covered in Neo-druidism and are mentioned a it later in the article, but shouldn't they be mentioned in the lede? Maybe a sentence like: "Druidry in its modern form is practised by neo-druids."? -- Conor ( talk) 16:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
"However, the druids left no written accounts of their own practices, so much of this hypothesis is complete speculation, as is most of the above article." Sounds really professional and encyclopedic, doesn't it? I'm just passing through the article, but is there some way to express the uncertainty and speculation (in fact, done earlier in the article) better than this, tongue-in-cheek as it may be? 98.215.48.213 ( talk) 22:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
"Despite neo-druidic believers, it is unknown whether or not women were historically allowed to serve as druids.[citation needed]"
Someone let me know how to cite the lack of knowledge. 216.37.249.35 ( talk) 21:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
This page says (correctly as I believe) that the English word is taken from Latin; Wiktionary claims it's taken from Old Irish; can they be reconciled by someone with access to a good dictionary? Marnanel ( talk) 21:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Wiktionary is wrong claims no such thing, and rightly so. The Old Irish term is a continuation of the Old Celtic term from which the Latin word was derived. The English word isn't taken from the Old Irish. The OED has the important note that "the English use follows the Latin sources, whence it was derived, rather than native Celtic usage". This is an important point to remember when dealing with terminological confusion. --
dab
(𒁳)
07:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The current etymology section is the result of naive perusal of assorted dictionaries. It is completely unaware of which points are certain and which are speculative. It could do with some expert attention. -- dab (𒁳) 08:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
if you dont know already its pronounced (drood) =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.242.178.244 ( talk) 16:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
It is well known that the Rig Veda is the oldest available texts of mankind. The rig veda has a graphic account of the fight between various families all desecended from a common ancestor called Bharata with the members of Anu and Druhyu clans up against the Yadus and Purus. The Druhyus are described as driven out of the north western part of India from where they migrated to far off lands. They are nevertheless believed to have carried some Vedic Brahminical practices. Hence the priestly castes and groups among the Druids. Some scholars have even pointed out that the word Brittania is in realty entymologically derived from the Sanskrit Bharata-tanuja meaning those born in the line of Bharata.The descendents of Anu settled around Iran. {{unsigned|Gv365|08:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)}
As someone who has studied Celtic Studies and Indian Culture, I see it as entirely possible that the Aryan vedic culture and the Celtic druidic culture could be interconnected, especially with the evidence of a stone-age culture stretching from France, through Spain and along the African northern coast all the way through the Mid-East and ending in northern India. This can be seen in the placement of early 'rock-house' shrines, probably connected to animistic ancestor worship mystery cults which predate written history, which can be found from Europe to the Near-East.
see Celts and Hindu and Celts and Aryans two books by Myles Dillon. 72.204.69.79 ( talk) 07:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The person who removed the "Pliny the Elder" citation for the source of the "sun, moon, and stars" deification, please pay attention. Wikipedia isn't cited, Pliny the Elder is/was cited as the source, Wikipedia just happens to have a copy of the original quote in the Coligny Calendar article. Thanks in advance.
When I seen the title, I thought it was hysterical. In College, the professors get quite upset if you use Wiki as a reference. The humor was found where Wiki did not like using Wiki as a reference either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deanthegreen ( talk • contribs) 18:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone keeps adding that there were female Druids to this article in the lead. The only evidence we have for Druidism is from Classical scholars, and they do not say anything about female Druids Electraawoman ( talk) 01:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)There are other sources, which is what I tried to cite, but the sources were deleted (the Miranda Green cite, Freeman discussed below, Ellis also). The classical writings only offer limited information on the Druids, and some do refer to druidesses. This is a faulty premise for concluding Druids were only male.
(yes, I know there is an 1824 that claims they did, but I have no idea). Trying to check out some of the claims from that book and a couple of neo-Druidism sites shows either nothing, or that the actual quote says 'prophetess', etc. Or that the Latin term 'Dryades' was used, which is not a Latin or Greek word meaning Druid.
Electraawoman ( talk) 02:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)I think dryades means "tree nymph", and I don't know the history of the translations, but Phillip Freeman, a classics professor, in "War, Women, & Druids: Eyewitness reports and Early Accounts," states on page 49, "The fourth century A.D. collection of imperial biographies known as the Historia Augusta contains three short passages involving Gaulish women called "Dryades" ("Druidesses")." His book then lists the 3 instances. I'm not a linquist and do not know the history of the translation, but I think a professor of classics should be considered as a source on the subject, and he translates it as "druidesses."
Strabo gets quoted as mentioning Druidesses who worshipped Bacchus, but he doesn't actually use the word Druidess. That there are later mentions of Druidesses is of course correct, but they come centuries after the period for which we have contemporary writers writing about Druids. Doug Weller ( talk) 14:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Electraawoman ( talk) 01:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)I, Natalie (electraawoman), keep adding that there were female druids. There is ample evidence, from scholarly research and including legends and folklore, of female druids. I included the cites to the scholarly articles discussing the existence of female druids in Cambridge Publications, British History publications, etc., but someone deleted the legitimate cites to legitimate scholarly articles and books. I have put them back into the page, as they are legitimate references. Lewis Spence is considered more of a Neo-Druidism writer, and his work is not scholarly or reviewed by academics. The gender comment appears biased and not based on scholarly research on the topic. Despite this, I did not delete the statement or the cite, as that would be very rude and defeats the purpose of allowing people to judge information based on their own research.
I got rid of the gender comment. Electraawoman ( talk) 01:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)The gender comment is still in the article. It has simply been moved lower in the article under "History." The gender statement is still on the page.
Although Lewis did get at least one review that I can find, I am happy to and have replaced that reference with one to Ron Hutton's book on Pagan religions.
Electraawoman ( talk) 01:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC) 66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)In response (from electraawoman): I did put the author's full name, Miranda Green, with the publishing company, Hudson & Thames, with the page number, in my original cite. I even linked to the page in the google books, p. 84 I believe ( I will check again), but that reference was deleted for no cause. That was my original frustration. My source was legitimate; it was not an opinion or incorrect information. It was information from a professor's book, written to discuss the Druids. The book is even listed in the further reading section on the same Wikipedia Druid page. It seems questionable to delete a cite to a recognized book on the subject. I will put the link back into the cite, with the page number, so that it links to the page in google books. I also linked to scholarly articles, with page numbers, that spoke to the topic. These were also deleted. These sources were not misinformation. I do not understand why they were deleted, several times.
66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)There is also no proof that there were not female druids. Lack of references to them in limited classical writings does not mean they did not exist. The limited references to the time period do not discuss every aspect of Druids. To make such a broad conclusion seems questionable. The classics were not the only sources of information. This is the faulty premise that concerns me. So, to make the assumption that there is no evidence of female druids based on classical accounts dismisses other sources. 66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
or at any time, as that is mythology and not contemporary report. So I've put that back in, rewording it slightly (I don't think you can have 'mythical legends'. 66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Electraawoman ( talk) 01:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Additionally, there is a reference to an aunt of "Ausonius", named Dryadia which means "druidess". As Ausonius' grandfather was banished by the Roman bishop of Rouen, this can be considered a reference from the Romans. Peter Berresford Ellis discusses this in "A Brief History of the Druids, p. 18. People may disagree on the translation. At any rate, and even if translations cause disagreement, "classical" references are not the only source discussing Druids, and to state that they were "only male" is a large assumption. Considering that very little concrete information has been found by archaeologists, it concerns me to see such a broad statement, especially when there are other sources that refer to female Druids, and those sources and cites are being deleted for no apparent cause.
66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)In response: I can agree to a cite from a recognized author. That is great. However, that does not mean that other recognized authors' viewpoints, publications, articles and sources can be deleted. It is understood that the Druids are hard to study and the evidence of their existence is hard to locate. I do not know to which authors Ron Hutton refers, but there are other respected authors that speak differently and discuss female druids. These should also be included.
I think the gender statement, since uncertain, should be removed completely. My scholarly sources say there were female druidesses. Yours say there were not. We should either include both statements, with sources for each, or simply remove the gender statement completely. By completely, I mean take it out of the entire article, not move it under history. Either way makes sense to me.
66.32.194.168 ( talk) 01:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)I did not want to delete someone else's cite. I originally just marked "citation needed" when I first read the article. However, the first cite was by a questionable author, and it seemed strange to include that cite and delete cites to professors' publications. I think we can compromise and include both of our sources. That's the fascinating thing about Wikipedia and academia, many people coming together with different research and viewpoints. It makes all of us dig a little deeper. Thank you for responding. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
PLEASE READ WP:TALKPAGE and WP:TALK as you have really messed this section up and it is extremely hard to see what I wrote and what you wrote. Hutton is talking about Roman and Greek period authors.
Electraawoman ( talk) 17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)Again, Ellis is a renowned classics professor. And even he acknowledges that there is a reference to an aunt of "Ausonius", named Dryadia which means "druidess". As Ausonius' grandfather was banished by the Roman bishop of Rouen, this can be considered a reference from the Romans. Peter Berresford Ellis discusses this in "A Brief History of the Druids, p. 18. I did not "mess up this site." I merely included cites from respected authors. I assume that is a goal. And again, they were deleted.
Your 1824 book is not a 'scholarly source'. I don't know what else besides Miranda Green and Ellis you see as scholarly. Doug Weller ( talk) 03:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Electraawoman ( talk) 17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)It is a legitimate published book, in addition to the myriad of scholarly cites I discussed above, and included in the article, which were then deleted.
Electraawoman (
talk)
17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)The later myths and oral traditions of the people of the region are as valuable as the Classical accounts. The Greeks and Romans were known for their misunderstanding and condescension towards the Druids. They are certainly not the ultimate guide on Druids.
Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 6: V. 6 By James Hastings p. 790 briefly discusses later mentions of Dryades, saying that they appear to be only sorceresses.
Druids Or a Study in Celtic Prehistory: A Study in Keltic Prehistory By T. D. Kendrick p 96
"One asks, of course, whether this reference to dryades, or druidesses. really constitutes legitimate evidence of the survival of druids and druidism in the 3rd century. All that we know about these women is that they were fortune-tellers, such as we might find among many peoples, and ii is possible that the name dryades. or some form of name like it, was bestowed on them by these two authors through a misapprehension based 011 mi imperfect knowledge of the status and functions of the true druids. They might have represented, in fact, to the uncritical eyes of the biographers of the emperors, the remaining Keltic exponents of a known druidic practice ol earlier times, that is divination ; and so might have been called druidesses. regardless of the question of their actual connection with the real druidic order.
A more serious consideration is that there is some slight evidence of the existence among the continental Kelts of priestesses in the proper sense of the word (p. 140). and these were not, to our knowledge, called druids or druidesses. We cannot assume, therefore, that anyone performing a religious rite, or practising divination, in the Keltic lands was a member of the druidic order." Doug Weller ( talk) 20:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Electraawoman ( talk) 17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)None of this justifies a blanket, concrete statement that Druids were only male. There are too many conflicting sources and viewpoints.
From The Druids by Peter Berresford Ellis, "Several Greek and Latin writers speak od Dryades or Druidessess, and the existence of such female Druids is certainly confirmed by Celtic sources. One has to bear on mind the fascinating role of women in Celtic society as opposed to their position in other European cultures. The rights and position of Celtic women far exceeded those of Greece or Rome." 72.204.69.79 ( talk) 06:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
About female druids, I found this article -- http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/femdruids/ leaflord ( talk) 17:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
The statement about druids disappearing from written records after the 2nd century A.D. is patently untrue. Ausonius mentions druids in the 4th century -- nostalgically, perhaps, but in reference to having druidic heritage. Druids appear in the literature of early medieval Ireland, and the stories of St. Patrick confronting druids seem to have a historical basis. Cynwolfe ( talk) 16:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
the early medieval references to "Insular Druids" are a case apart, and we treat them under "Late druidic survivals". Afaik, most scholars think they are baseless and inspired by Roman ethnography.
In Gaul, the druids had essentially disappeared by the 1st century CE. Ausonius may be a notable exception in that he "nostalgically" reminisces about druidic heritage in the 4th century. Confirming that druidry in his time had long ceased to be a living tradition. -- dab (𒁳) 09:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I have tried to make clear that the association of Britain with druidism rests on two pieces of evidence:
That's it. Obviously, the British did have some sort of religion, administered by some sort of priesthood, like any other pagan society, but the above is the only evidence that this should in any way be considered cognate or indeed identical to the Gaulish class of philosophers. -- dab (𒁳) 09:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
people trying to make a big deal of the reports on human sacrifice being hostile Roman propaganda should be aware that human sacrifice was practiced in pretty much every Iron Age culture as a matter of course. Not frequently, not to the point of blood-thirsty excess, but as a form of highest ritual to be resorted to in very special cases. This is well documented in the human sacrifice article. Case in point, human sacrifice was outlawed in Rome itself in 97 BCE, all of 50 years before druidism was penalized for human sacrifice under Tiberius. Gladiatorial combat, abolished as late as the 5th century CE, originated as a form of human sacrifice. In the wider context of Iron Age religion, it is really rather unremarkable that the druids should have performed human sacrifice. The question is, were these sacrifices particularly cruel or frequent, as the Romans seem to imply, or did Roman writers just opt to make a big deal of an ethnographic factoid in the service of some agenda of their own. Referenced academic opinion on this point would be highly welcome, but can we please do without the fluffy "they were peaceful tree-huggers vilified by the evil Roman imperialsts" apologetics. -- dab (𒁳) 09:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I see we have a dedicated Celts and human sacrifice article. It's not very good and could do with some attention. -- dab (𒁳) 10:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
There's no such book. I'm wondering if another writer has been confused about the title of one of Cunliffe's books and that this may have come from that other writer. Dougweller ( talk) 21:10, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
The Romans outlawed druidism. The article has been aware of that for ages. It is also a truism that a purely oral tradition will go extinct irretrievably as soon as the tradition is broken for the first time. However, the implication of "ethnic cleansing" and of the Romans hunting down the druid clergy Spanish-Inquisition-style is preposterous. If that turns out to be the content of the Cunliffe reference, the article will still only say "in the opinion of Cunliffe (1987)", since that is certainly far from any mainstream assessment of the situation. But before it comes to that, let's see a verbatim quote. It would seem far more likely that Cunliffe is simply being misrepresented. -- dab (𒁳) 05:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
The "Lebor Feasa Runda" is apparently [9] [10] [11] a self-published book purporting to be an English translation of a German translation of an alleged Gaelic text that was lost. I wonder how the book's author can pretend his "translation" had been "highly anticipated" considering that nobody had never even heard of this text. This is, not to put too fine a point on it, complete bollocks, and probably does not deserve mention in this, or any other, Wikipedia article. -- dab (𒁳) 19:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
lol, I got him. He made it all up. here he is kind enough to post an excerpt of his English translation of the alleged German "original". He is busted in line 1, revealing that he doesn't know any German, as his German "original" is actually a machine translation of his English "translation".
"Dämmerung des Alters" is a machine translation of the English expression "dawn of the ages", impossible in German. wertlos aber die Tiefen is again a machine translation of "nought but the depths", completely ungrammatical and even comic in German. I don't know what translaton software would come up with beträchtlich ("considerable") for vast, but that is already a marginal concern at this point.
Now I don't mind WP:FRINGE frauds, but if you're going to press with your fraud, you should at least put some effort into it. This is a fraud of such abysmal quality that it takes an educated person about 30 seconds to see through it and about ten minutes to lose interest in it even as a fraud. -- dab (𒁳) 11:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
"late survival" as in 7th century, not 12th century, not to mention 15th century. Obviously pagan tradition morphed into folklore everywhere in Europe, but that's not "survival of druidism". By AD 700, both Ireland and Great Britain were unambiguously Christian.
The "persecution of bards" in the high middle ages would properly belong on the bard article. There is no harm in mentioning bards here, but our article still claims
without giving us any reference as to who these "writers" may be. On the face of it, a bard is not a druid, and a seer is not a druid, even though he may be referred to as dryw in Welsh (otherwise we could claim that the Roman Catholic Church is a "survival of Roman paganism" by virtue of the title sacerdos). It there is a hypothesis of "survival of druidism" in Welsh seers of the high or even late medieval period, that would be very interesting, but it would also need to be attributed. -- dab (𒁳) 12:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it is fair to mention "bards and seers", but details on the "persecution of bards" in medieval Wales evidently belongs on the bard article. I am not sure what to do with dryw "seer", there may be an article in this, but we need better references. It may conceivably also be a section here, same as fáith redirects to Vates. -- dab (𒁳) 10:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Concerning dryw as the name of Regulidae or Troglodytidae (which is it?) and druidic augury, this is something that popped up with google as I compiled the paragraph, but I didn't pursue it. Still needs to be done properly. -- dab (𒁳) 15:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
hm, we lost Regulus there, but at commons:Regulus_ignicapillus I find a Welsh name Dryw Penfflamgoch, while commons:Troglodytes troglodytes has simple Dryw. It would seem to be correct that both Regulus and Troglodytes are called Dryw in Welsh, but the wren is "the" dryw, while the firecrest is the "red-headed dryw". -- dab (𒁳) 13:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
wait a minute, I just note that penfflamgoch is in fact a translation of ignicapillus, while kinglet is a translation of regulus (or is regulus a translation of kinglet??), while the word wren is in fact a loan from a Celtic word that would have meant as much as kinglet. Also, how can the English name of the wren be a Celtic loan when the bird is called dryw in Welsh and dreoilín in Irish? This has probably very little to do with the topic of "Druid" or even dryw, but it calls for further investigation. Somewhere down the line, there must have been a confusion of wrens with kinglets. Consiering that one is an unsightly brown colour while the other is blazing yellow, I wonder if the Celts had a tradition of using blind men for augury. But maybe the "Celtic loan" theory is simply wrong, at least OED is unaware of it, stating that wren is "obscurely related to OHG. wrendo, wrendilo, Icel. rindill". -- dab (𒁳) 15:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
If the suppression of Druidism in Britain is ascribed to the Romans, as no such authority existed in Ireland their continuing existence there until the advent of Christianity is more than likely. His 7th century biographers record the druids as adversaries of the 5th century Christian missionary St Patrick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikpandha181 ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
The classic role of a Druid in the life of a medieval Irish saint was as an evil pagan magician, who is defeated by the hero of the hagiography, using the power of the true god, and so is either killed or converted In the words of the editor of Irish saints' lives, Charles Plummer, 'they meet us at every turn as the chief, if not the only, opponents of the new faith'. They appear as such in the earliest Irish literature and play the same part into the seventeenth century, falling foul of a succession of Christian holy men of whom the first and greatest was Patrick himself. They are his main opponents in Muirchu's life of the saint, which was written in the late seventh century and as such is one of the oldest surviving Irish texts. It describes how Patrick confronted the high king Loegaire, whom he found surrounded by different kinds of magicians and soothsayers to whom Muirchii gave various Latin brand names. Of these, the magi were those commonly translated by scholars as Druids. They were certainly the most important and the most hostile to Patrick, who defeated them with a series of miracles in the course of which their two leaders perished. Muirchii makes plain, however, that he is not merely, or even primarily, recounting a native tradition but seeking to assimilate Patrick to the great figures of Christian literature. He expressly compares Loegaire to the biblical king Nebuchadnezzar, who kept court magicians, and Patrick's duel with one of them to St Peter's contest with Simon Magus. Another parallel, this time implicit, is with Elijah opposing the priests of Baal. Significantly, we possess two actual letters written by the historical Patrick about the nature of his mission, over two centuries before Muirchu's time. They never mention Druids, nor dramatic confrontations at Tara: his problems are all with local kings or hostile fellow Christians.
« The earliest record of the name druidae (Δρυΐδαι) is reported from a lost work of the Greek doxographer Sotion of Alexandria (early 2nd century BCE), who was cited by Diogenes Laertius in the 3rd century CE. » has been tagged {{ jargon}}. Why? — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 19:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
This article may be too technical for most readers to understand.(August 2011) |
This article may be too technical for most readers to understand.(August 2011) |