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The newly added content describing Demiraj's position will have to be considerably reduced in size, per WP:WEIGHT.
Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and use of imagery.
The position of Çabej is 169 bytes, of Kyriazis 505 bytes, while of Demiraj 2290 bytes. A paragraph between 500-1000 bytes is more than enough to summarize his position. The rest can be included either as a quote or an
efn note. Aside of all that, Demiraj's view is not only earlier than Kyriazis', but also doesn't consider at all earlier recorded attestations of the name. He jumps from Αδριανούπολις to Dropull. Suffice it to say that his emphatic comparison to Greek, in order to justify earlier stages of evolution for this name, while ignoring the presence of Aromanian and South Slavic dialects in the region, makes his whole approach quite incomplete. Personally, i believe that there was an intermediate form prior of the recorded Αdernoboli and Δερνόπολη (Dernópoli) that can be explained convincingly through Eastern
Balkan Romance at a first stage, and Slavic (local dialects, like for example the one of
Boboshticë and
Drenovë; as recorded by
André Mazon) or Medieval Greek at a second stage. Even his statement about the evolution /-o-/ > /-u-/ in the last syllable of Dropull specifically, can also be explained through Northern Greek (e.g. Θεσσαλονίκη > Σαλονίκη > Σαλουνίκ΄, ἄνθρωπος > άνθρουπους) and Aromanian (e.g. cognatus > cumnat, orationem > uratsiune, leporem > ljepure), aside of Albanian (e.g. collare > kular, cognatus > kunat, leporem > lepur). I could elaborate further on all that, but there is no reason. The issue is the depth of detail for his position.
Demetrios1993 (
talk)
20:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
While Katerina Korre does describes the villages of Dropull as Greek-speaking during the early 16th century, her claim is not supported by the archival material that is referenced and is simply an addition of her own. The Ottoman register of 1520 did not record the spoken language of the villagers and thus definitive statements in regards to linguistic character cannot be made. At most, inferences can only be made based on the attested anthroponyms, which were largely Albanian in character as opposed to discernibly Greek. On top of the majority of anthroponyms being from the Albanian onomastic sphere, many also depict characteristics suggesting the usage of Albanian as a spoken language; for example, the diminutive suffix -ush and the personal name Progor which shows Tosk rhotacism from Progon. As such, Korre's claim cannot be held as reliable - as it has no clear evidential basis - and thus should not be used in the article in the context in which it has. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 16:31, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Korre meets both SECONDARY & ACADEMIC, and she is really careful with the presentation of 16th century events in the region. In fact even Albanian editors here used her works quite frequently. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:25, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
It being a case of say assimilated Albanians/Slavs/Vlachs into the Greek nationis WP:OR. Khirurg ( talk) 03:44, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
In her paper 'Συμβολή στην ιστορία του βορειοηπειρωτικού ελληνισμού τα τέλη του 16ου αιώνα: Ματθαίος Παπαγιάννης' (2013), Katerina Korre - who references archival materials such as the Ottoman registers - states that the region of Dropull was Christian and Greek-speaking during the early 16th century. While it is clear from the archival evidence that the region was Christian, they do not comment on the linguistic character of the region - be it Albanian or Greek. As such, there is no evidential basis for her claim and I propose that it should not be used on the article. Her claim is further contradicted by cited paper by Duka (1990) who transliterated the register of 1520 and noted that there was a predominance of Albanian personal names in the region - many of which can only be explained through Albanian (e.g., Djalosh, Progor, Bardh) and show Albanian linguistic influence (e.g., the suffix -ush). This makes Korre's claim that the region was exclusively Greek-speaking during the 16th century even more unlikely.
As for Duka's claim that the lack of names ending in the -s suffix indicating no Greek linguistic influence in the anthroponyms, I am okay with either removing the statement or keeping the counter-argument presented by @ Alexikoua. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 17:55, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
At the beginning of the 16th century the settlements in Dropull were Christian and Greek speaking. Korre (2013):
Στις αρχές του 16ου αιώνα τα κατεκτηµένα εδάφη διαιρέθηκαν ξ-νά από τους Οθωµανούς στα σαντζάκια Ελβασάν (ιδρύθηκε το 1466), Αυλώνας, Σκόδρας, Πρεζρένης και Αχρίδας.(9) To Αργυρόκαστρο εντάχθηκε στο σαντζάκι Αυλώνας και ανέκαµψε σταδιακά µετά από κοινωνική και οικονοµική ύφεση (1432-1507).(10) Αποτέλεσε ένα από τα µεγάλα βιλαέτια και ήταν χωρισµένο σε περισσότερους από έναν ναχιγιέδες.
Ήταν πλαισιωµένο µε χριστιανικά και ελληνόφωνα χωριά που βρίσκονταν στην κοιλάδα της ∆ρόπολης, από τις δύο πλευρές του Μικρού ∆ρίνου (..) Παραµένοντας εντελώς µη µουσουλµανική πόλη, κατέστη αστικό κέντρο ενώ ο πληθυσµός της αυξήθηκε µε την αθρόα εισροή κατοίκων της γειτονικής υπαίθρου, κυρίως τεχνιτών, αγροτών και µικρεµπόρων (11)
Footnotes:(9) Περιελάµβαναν 11 πόλεις και 23 οχυρά. Todorov, Η Βαλκανική Πόλη, ό.π.,σ. 53.
(10) Παρουσιάζεται ρυθµός µέσης ετήσιας µείωσης των νοικοκυριών, της τάξης του 1,8‰ και κατόπιν, από το 1583 και µετά, αύξησης κατά 14‰ των νοικοκυριών του (434 καταγεγραµµένα νοικοκυριά)· ό.π., σ. 102 (πίνακας).
Παρότι το Αργυρόκαστρο εξακολούθησε να υπάγεται από τον 16ο ως τον 19ο αιώνα στο σαντζάκι Αυλώνας, σύµφωνα µε νεότερη διοικητική διαίρεση (1537-1540) το ∆έλβινο έγινε έδρα του οµώνυµου σαντζακίου, στο οποίο προστέθηκαν αρκετές περιοχές από το σαντζάκι της Αυλώνας (όπως ο καζάς της Χειµάρρας) και των Ιωαννίνων(όπως ο καζάς Παραµυθιάς και η περιφέρεια Μαργαριτίου). (..) Πρέπει πάντως να σηµειωθεί ότι η διοικητική ορολογία (σαντζάκι, βιλαέτι, καζάς, ναχιγιές) δεν ακολουθείται πάντα µε συνέπεια στα οθωµανικά έγγραφα της περιόδου. Για τους συναφείς προβληµατισµούς ως προς την οθωµανική διοικητική ονοµατολογία βλ. Κοκολάκης Μιχ., Το Ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι. Χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυ-σµός στην τουρκοκρατούµενη Ήπειρο (1820-1913), Αθήνα 2003, σσ. 99-103, 123
(11) Ό.π., σσ. 93, 118.
At the beginning of the 16th century the conquered lands were divided again by the Ottomans in the sanjaks of Elbasan (1466) Vlora, Shkodra, Prizren and Ohrid.(9) Gjirokastër became part of the sanjak of Vlora and recovered gradually after social and economic recession (1432-1507).(10) It became one of the big vilayets and was divided in more than one nahiyes.
It was surrounded by Christian and Greek-speaking villages which were located in the valley of Dropull on the two sides of the Lesser Drin (..) As it was an entirely non-Muslim city, its population increased with waves of new inhabitants from the nearby countryside, mostly craftsmen, farmers, small merchants. (11)
Footnotes: (9) They included 11 towns and 23 forts. Todorov, The Balkan City, op. cit. p 53.
(10) There is a decrease in the average number of households (1.8%) and then after 1583, an increase of households by 14% (434 registered households) op. cit. p. 102 (table).
While Gjirokastër was still under the sanjak of Vlora from the 16th to the 19th century, according to the more recent administrative division (1537-1549) Delvina became the seat of the sanjak of the same name under which several areas of the sanjaks of Vlora (like the kaza of Himara) and of Yanina (like the kaza of Paramythia and the district of Margariti) were placed. (..) It has to be noted that correct administrative terminology is not always used in Ottoman documents of the era. For the relevant discussion about Ottoman administrative terminology see Kokolakis M., The Later Pashalik of Yannina: Topography, Administration and Population in Ottoman Epiros (1820-1913)
(11) op. cit. pp. 93, 118.
It was surrounded by Christian and Greek-speaking villages which were located in the valley of Dropull on the two sides of the Lesser Drinbut this statement is not about the early 16th century which is what was disputed by several editors. I don't think that anyone is disputing the assertion that by the 19th century, many villages of Dropull were Greek-speaking. @ Lezhjani1444: Since there is no dispute, you may close the RfC. I checked the defters themselves and it's clear that the people who lived in Greek-speaking Zagori from a linguistic perspective can't be the same as those of most villages of Dropull. There is an overall sharp difference in anthroponymy. I do think that some parts can be expanded as there are inner differences as well. There is a distinction between Vrahogoranxi and Goranxi. Vrahogoranxi has predominantly Albanian names, while Goranxi has some Albanian anthroponymy, but here there are many more Yianni than Gjon/Gjin combined. It can't be a coincidence that all the Papadopullo (even though one of them is named Gjon), Despoti, Manodoris, Yorgec are in this village, but nowhere else in Dropull a Papadopullo or a Despoti is found. This can be interpreted in many ways but in the context of the defter it has to be noted that at least one village in the region did differ from the other ones. It's clear that there is a population difference between a village like Zervat where Gjin/Gjon/Deda are found in all kinds of combinations and Goranxi. A statistical example is the name Deda. There are 20 Deda (personal name or patronymic) in ~200 household heads of Zervat = 1/10 adult men who had their own household in Zervat was some sort of Deda. In Goranxi, there are 4 Deda in 152 households = ~2.6%. The ratio is about the same for all Albanian names. There are 40 Gjin (or derivative compounds like Gjindonati) in 200 households of Zervat = 20% of all household heads, but in Goranxi there are 6/152 Gjin = 4%. Hence, just the names Gjin + Deda are found in 30% of Zervat, but in 6.6% of Goranxi. This highlights a sharp inner distinction in the region.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:15, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
According to Kostantinos Giakoumis, various works inside Albania, including Duka's research about Dropull, attempt to portray the presence of a non-Albanian population as an outcome of colonization from neighbouring kin-state territoriesbecause Duka (1990) doesn't support the statement that the Greeks of Dropull come from "outside colonization". Duka (1990) writes
Cinquièmement : dans l'antroponymie de Dropull se trouvent reflétés des déplacements mécaniques de la population des régions ou des villages voisins (Zagori, Labove) vers Dropull, ainsi que des mouvements de cette même nature, à l'intérieur de la région de Dropull. Ainsi, dans quelques villages, il y a des chefs de famille qui portent des noms de famille tels que Zagoriti Laboviti , etc.).
(Voir à ce sujet les villages Llovine et Bodrishte ). Outre ce fait, l'on ne constate dans aucun cas des traces du déplacement vers Dropull d'habitants des régions de la Grèce.(translation: (..) in no case can we find traces of the move to Dropull of inhabitants from regions of Greece. I'm not sure if the original paper which I can't check right now has been cited correctly or if this statement refers to another academic discussion. In any case, it is not pertinent to the discussion about the 1520 defter of Dropull as Duka doesn't argue in favor of any colonization from any area of Greece.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:50, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Liço, Filip (2009). Probleme të marrëdhënieve greko-shqiptare:
p. 452: Për këtë ai sjell disa shembuj nga regjistrimet turke të 1431, 1520 dhe 1583. Por në regjistrimet turke që trajtuam në fillim dalin dy konkluzione kryesore:
E para se shumica e antroponimeve janë greke.
E dyta se pakica e emrave janë shqiptare, si: Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, Martin etj. karakteristike e malësorëve shqiptarë që emigruan drejt Thesalisë dhe Epirit në shekujt XII-XV.
pp. 459–460: Mirëpo, nëse analizojmë me kujdes këtë kategori të antroponimeve, konstatojmë:
Së pari: këto antroponime janë karakteristike të Shqipërisë Veriore, gjë që autori nuk e përmend fare...
Së dyti: këto antroponime jo vetëm që nuk kanë ndonjë superioritet, por paraqesin një përhapje që vërteton preferencën e tyre për t'u vendosur në fshatra malore e veçanërisht të Dropullit të Sipërm.
pp. 466–467: Historikisht është i njohur fakti i shpërnguljes valë-valë i banorëve të Shqipërisë Veriore gjatë shek. XII-XV në drejtim të Epirit e Thesalisë dhe, më pas, të Greqisë Jugore. Nga këto dhjetëra mijë shqiptarë, një pjesë e vogël mbeti në Dropull. Kush ishte fati i këtyre malësorëve shqiptarë? Përse nuk mbijetuan në krahinën e Dropullit? Si shpjegohet fakti se kemi shumë mbiemra dhe shumë pak toponime me prejardhje shqiptare? Dy janë shkaqet kryesore:
1) Një pjesë e familjeve shqiptare, që zbritën nga Shqipëria Veriore, kanë emigruar në Greqinë Jugore, duke ndjekur shembullin e shqiptarëve që ishin vendosur në Epirin Juglindor dhe në Thesali.
2) Pjesa që mbeti në fshatrat e Dropullit u asimilua mbi bazën e parimit: shumica asimilon pakicën.
pp. 467–468: Në historinë mijëravjeçare të popujve e veçanërisht në Perandorinë Bizantine dhe në përgjithësi në mesjetë, kishim periodikisht zhvendosje dhe emigracione të popujve. Defteri i Sanxhakut të Vlorës i viteve 1519–1520 është një dokument i padiskutueshëm. Këtë regjistrim duhet ta analizojmë me kujdesin dhe seriozitetin e duhur, pa paragjykime dhe me objektivitet shkencor. U përpoqëm t'i analizojmë antroponimet e fshatrave të Dropullit në fillim të shek. XVI, pa nënvleftësuar e pa zvogëluar çdo gjë që ka prejardhje shqiptare dhe pa hiperbolizuar çdo gjë që lidhet me prejardhje greke. Për të evituar përsëritjen e konkluzioneve të çdo pjese, dëshirojmë të theksojmë dy probleme:
1. Duke pranuar se antroponimia e Dropullit pa fundoren "s" është shqiptare, jemi të detyruar të pranojmë se popullsia grekofone e Dropullit ka ardhur në këtë trevë pas vitit 1520.
Por shkencërisht kjo është e papranueshme. Analiza e antroponimive të Dropullit vërteton se fundorja "s" nuk ka asnjë lidhje me prejardhjen shqipe të tyre.
2. Regjistrimi i 1520-ës nga ana e pushtuesve turq vulos faktin se shumica e banorëve të fshatrave të Dropullit është grekofone, se para pushtimit turk Dropulli kishte karakter etnik grek.
Demetrios1993 ( talk) 23:50, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Probleme të marrëdhënieve greko-shqiptare (2009) by Filip Liço has been cited a number of times on this article, especially in relation to onomastics and toponymic analysis. This is an issue since Liço's work contains a number of errors and misinformation on those specific topics/fronts and does not pass as RS:
1) Liço argues that the Albanian anthroponymic element represents a minority in Dropull and that they are only really concentrated in the villages of Upper Dropull (Së dyti: këto antroponime jo vetëm që nuk kanë ndonjë superioritet, por paraqesin një përhapje që vërteton preferencën e tyre për t'u vendosur në fshatra malore e veçanërisht të Dropullit të Sipërm
). This is demonstrably erroneous. For example, in the village of Terihat in Lower Dropull, 52/56 (92.85%) of household heads bore typical Albanian personal names. Similarly, in neighbouring Jorgucat, at least 45/57 (78.94%) of household heads bore Albanian anthroponyms.
2) Furthermore, Liço makes the extremely incorrect and misleading claim that the recorded Albanian element of Dropull was primarily represented by settlers from the northern highland territories of Albania. This, Liço argues, being suggested by the presence of names such as Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, and Martin. It is common knowledge that these names were/are pan-Albanian names found across the country since the medieval period. There is no 'northern' character. As such, there is no evidence for this fanciful migration from the north, it is Liço's own unsubstantiated belief.
3) There are RS implications about the source because it does not seem to be published in a scientific (WP:RSCONTEXT) but as a general anthology of essays on 'Albanian-Greek Problems' and it might be self-published to a degree.
Due to this, I suggest Liço (2009) be removed, at the very least on the occasions where his claims are verifiably incorrect. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 22:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
E dyta se pakica e emrave janë shqiptare, si: Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, Martin etj. karakteristike e malësorëve shqiptarë që emigruan drejt Thesalisë dhe Epirit në shekujt XII-XV.Translation: A minority of names are Albanian like: Gjin, Gjon Dedë, Martin etc. - [names which are] characteristic of the Albanian highlanders who migrated towards Thessaly and Epirus in the 12th-15th centuries. If this statement is correct or not only requires a routine WP:CALC investigation which involves simply counting the names which have an unambiguously Albanian component - what the author himself describes. @ Lezhjani1444:@ Demetrios1993: what do the defters per settlement show? I'm all for comparing and contrasting sources, but there has to be some contextualization of the claims of each author. I did something similar in the past [4]. I think that if we examine the issue in this context we may find out that there are sharp differences between the settlements of Dropull.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:59, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Për këtë ai sjell disa shembuj nga regjistrimet turke të 1431, 1520 dhe 1583. Por në regjistrimet turke që trajtuam në fillim dalin dy konkluzione kryesore: E para se shumica e antroponimeve janë greke. E dyta se pakica e emrave janë shqiptare, si: Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, Martin etj. karakteristike e malësorëve shqiptarë që emigruan drejt Thesalisë dhe Epirit në shekujt XII-XV.(p. 452).
According to Kyriazis (2022), the Albanian anthroponymic element is indeed significant, but there are also settlements with mixed Greek, Slavic, Albanian, and Aromanian anthroponyms, as well as settlements where the predominance of Greek anthroponyms is evident; such as in Derviçan-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I would like to thank everyone for their comments and for waiting until I was able to respond. For the record, you didn't have to ping me five times; one was enough. I should also clarify that due to the nature of my profession, my time is extremely limited; so please, bear with me.
Liço doesn't claim that the Albanian anthroponymic element is to be found only in the villages of Upper Dropull. He simply says that the distribution of these names indicates the preference of their bearers for mountainous settlements, especially in Upper Dropull. The fact that he doesn't exclude Lower Dropull is further confirmed by his presentation of precise figures – concerning such anthroponyms – in settlements that are to be found in both subdivisions. Take for example the following excerpt:
p. 460: Në Dropullin e Sipërm:
a. Në Goranxinë e Sipërme me 131 familje, afërsisht gjysma e antroponimeve janë nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë – të përziera dhe të tjerat janë greke. Sot ky fshat me emrin Krioneri është i vogël dhe me një sipërfaqe të kufizuar, që ishte e pamundur të përfshinte 131 familje. Ky fakt na imponon hipotezën se atëherë Goranxia e Sipërme shtrihej në drejtim të Selos ose akoma edhe drejt Klisarit, gjersa që të dy këto fshatra nuk përmenden fare.
b. Në Zervat me 178 familje, 37 nga të cilat me prejardhje nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë kanë antroponime të përziera dhe shumica janë greke.
c. Në Bodrishtë me 147 familje, 15 vinin nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë kanë antroponime të përziera (veçanërisht me emra dhe mbiemra të Shqipërisë Jugore) dhe pjesa më e madhe e tyre janë greke.
Në Dropullin e Poshtëm:
a. Në Goranxinë e Poshtme me 142 familje, 10 kishin prejardhje nga Shqipëria Veriore, të pakta ishin antroponimet e përziera dhe shumica e tyre greke.
b. Në Derviçan me 298 familje, 3 ishin nga Shqipëria Veriore, me pak antroponime të përziera, numri më i madh i të cilave ishin greke.
It would be interesting to know the frequency of Albanian names if we were to also consider kinship ties and Christian names; the inclusion of the actual size of each settlement would also allow for easier comparison. However, the above shows that WP:CALC cannot be applied here without difficulties, as the author uses a different methodology and categorization scheme. For example, when he refers to clearly Albanian anthroponyms, he doesn't seem to include mixed cases among them. Then there are also names such as Nika – included in Lezhjani's statistics – which Liço views differently. For example:
pp. 462–463: Me antroponimet Niko, Nikolla dhe Nika, para se të shohim paraqitjen e tyre në defterin e vitit 1520, është e domosdoshme të përcaktojmë prejardhjen etimologjike të fjalës. Kjo kategori antroponimesh mund të shpjegohen vetëm nëpërmjet greqishtes dhe jo të shqipes, duke përfshirë edhe tipin Nika. Prejardhja e tyre vjen nga rrënja e emrit Nikollaos-Nikollas, tipi i shkurtuar është Nikos-Niko. Nikollaos (niqi tu llau), sepse kjo fjalë e përbërë vjen nga niqi 'fitorja' dhe llaos 'popull'. Nga shqyrtimi i kujdesshëm i regjistrimit të 21 fshatrave emri Niko përmendet 43 herë. Pra, nuk është eklipsuar nga antroponimi Nika. Gjithashtu antroponimi Niko përmendet 11 herë si mbiemër. Si pasojë, duhet të arrijmë në konkluzionin se kemi të bëjmë me një gabim. Sepse nuk e kemi Niko si mbiemër as në greqisht dhe as në shqip. ... Tani le të vazhdojmë me dy tipa të tjerë: Nikolla dhe Nika. Antroponimi Nikolla përmendet 33 herë si emër dhe 21 herë si mbiemër. Antroponimi Nika përmendet 93 herë si emër dhe 41 herë si mbiemër. Antroponimi Nika etimologjikisht nuk shpjegohet nëpërmjet shqipes. Të marra prej antroponimeve të Shqipërisë Jugore antroponimi Niko u përdor në Shqipërinë Veriore me formën e pashquar Nik dhe formën e shquar Nika. Prandaj nuk dyshojmë se një pjesë e kryefamiljarëve e këtij regjistrimi janë familje shqiptare. Megjithatë kemi edhe familje me antroponime të përziera si: Nika Vasili, Nika Dhima. Nika Papa, Nika Minguli (e fundit me prejardhje nga fshati Minguli e Lunxhërisë) etj. Akoma konstatojmë se kemi edhe fshatra të Dropullit që nuk kanë asnjë kryefamiljar me mbiemër Nika. Kështu p.sh. në Goranxinë e Dropullit të Poshtëm nuk kemi Nika as si emër dhe as si mbiemër; në Bodristë nuk kemi asnjë emër Nika, por vetëm 3 si mbiemër; në Vodhino nuk kemi asnjë emër apo mbiemër Nika etj. Gjithashtu duhet të theksojmë se Nika si mbiemër ka ekzistuar edhe në të kaluarën edhe sot në Dropullin e Poshtëm dhe atë të Sipërm. Po kështu me mbiemrin Nika kemi familje shqiptare gjithnjë në këtë regjistrim, si: Gjon Nika, Kont Nika, Gjin Nika etj. ashtu siç kemi edhe familje greke siç janë: Qira Nika, Qirjaqi Nika, Andrea Nika etj.
He has analyzed some additional names, but regardless, having said all that, i am still open to a compromise solution. We could for example replace the sentence that concerns Liço's general view about the frequency of Albanian anthroponyms in all of Dropull, with something more specific, such as a summary of the figures for the five aforementioned settlements of Goranxi e Sipërme, Zervat, Bodrishtë, Goranxinë e Poshtme, and Derviçan; in-text attribution goes without saying. I also have no problem removing his view that these names were characteristic of northern Albania; though even if we accept that such names were pan-Albanian, by that time at least, it doesn't really exclude the possibility of a northern Albanian origin. Personally, i do not know much about this topic, but Liço added the following: "pakica e shqiptarëve vinte nga emigracioni i malësorëve shqiptarë në shekujt XIV-XV, që e trajtuam më sipër në bazë të dokumenteve bizantine." This indicates that he might have included relevant information in a prior chapter titled "Principatat shqiptare në shekujt XIV-XV" (pp. 44–66); unfortunately i do not have access to it. Something else i found interesting from Duka's work, is that in the neighboring town of Gjirokastër, names such as Gjin, Gjon, Gjoka, Leka, etc., aren't attested in the defter of 1520; Duka tries to explain this, but there are some flaws in his reasoning which i don't want to expand on. By the way, why was the sentence about the surnames which Liço considers characteristically Greek, removed? I don't agree with the removal of that sentence, which even includes examples mentioned by Schmitt (2015).
Alexikoua, the fact that Duka's article doesn't include all settlements of Dropull, is also mentioned by Liço:
p. 459: Në bazë të këtij defteri analitik (musafal) fshatrat e Dropullit, pa ndryshuar renditjen e tyre, janë si vijon: Goranxi e Sipërme, Zervat, Asharat (Isharat), Goranxi e Poshtme, Vodhinë, Koshovica, Gergucat, Bodristë, Terihat, Lugari, Gorica, Grapsh, Letovinë, Dhuvjani, Llovina, Frastani i Poshtëm, Krina, Derviçan, Haskovë, Vanista, Sofratika. Nga Dropulli i Sipërm nuk përmenden: Bularati, Kra, Klisari, Selo, Sotira, Longo, Kakavia dhe Ai-Nikolla. Gjithashtu duhet të verifikojmë dhe të përcaktojmë emrin dhe vendin e fshatrave Asharat dhe Krina. Sa i takon emrit Letovinë është fjala për fshatin e vogël Letovishtë perballë Derviçanit dhe poshtë nga fshati Suhë.
This should probably be included in the article. Furthermore, to answer your other question, the toponymy of Dropull is available in a ten-year study by Liço, which is titled Dropulli – studim historiko-gjuhësor (1990); it was approved by the Institute of History of the Academy of Albanological Studies, and is available for study in their archive in Tirana, but remains unpublished. The toponymy of Dropull is also available in the book Τα τοπωνύμια των πανάρχαιων ελληνικών χωριών του νομού Αργυροκάστρου (2005). As for the toponymy of northern Pogoni, it is available in the book Πωγωνύμια: Ονόματα και ταυτότητες από το Bόρειο Πωγώνι της Ηπείρου (2021); southern Pogoni is excluded from that work, but is available in another book titled Τα οικωνύμια του Νομού Ιωαννίνων: γλωσσολογική εξέταση (2002).
Lezhjani, here is the excerpt you requested from Kyriazis' article.
pp. 42–43: Η δεύτερη ένστασή μας σχετίζεται με το γεγονός ότι, με βάση ξανά τη μεθοδολογική αρχή για συνολική και πολυεπίπεδη εξέταση των δεδομένων, περνώντας τώρα από τα ανθρωπωνύμια στα τοπωνύμια της Δρόπολης, δεν μπορούμε να μη διαπιστώσουμε την απόλυτη κυριαρχία του ελληνικού στοιχείου και δευτερευόντως του σλαβικού. Το εύρημα αυτό σηκώνει συζήτηση και εγείρει σοβαρά ερωτηματικά. Ο Φ. Λίτσιος έχει υπολογίσει ότι από 2.778 τοπωνύμια των χωριών της σημερινής Δρόπολης (ονομασίες οικισμών και μικροτοπωνύμια) 2.324 είναι ελληνικής αρχής, 57 σλαβικής, 184 αλβανικής, 90 τουρκικής και 123 άγνωστης προέλευσης. Παρότι δεν έχουμε συντάξει παρόμοιους πίνακες, ξεκινώντας από το πολύτιμο υλικό ενός αξιόλογου βιβλίου για τα τοπωνύμια της Δρόπολης, καρπού αφοσιωμένης εργασίας των συνταξιούχων δασκάλων της περιοχής, φτάνουμε λίγο πολύ στα ίδια συμπεράσματα, έχοντας ορισμένες επιφυλάξεις για την πιθανολογούμενη συχνότερη παρουσία των σλάβικων τοπωνυμιών, που τη διαπιστώνουμε και στα ονόματα των χωριών της Δρόπολης. Προς επίρρωση της ιδέας για μια πιο σύνθετη ανθρωπωνυμική εικόνα της Δρόπολης γύρω στα 1500, αναφέρουμε και άλλο ένα εντυπωσιακό εύρημα. Στα οθωμανικά κατάστιχα των οικισμών της Δρόπολης, του 1520 και 1583, εμφανίζεται αρκετά συχνά το όνομα/επώνυμο Martin / Martini και σπανίζει ο τύπος του επωνύμου Mërtiri. Το στοιχείο αυτό είναι ένα σημαντικό και ισχυρό επιχείρημα, που επιβεβαιώνει το ότι, μετά τουλάχιστον τον 10ο αιώνα, όταν είχε ολοκληρωθεί το φαινόμενο του ρωτακισμού της αλβανικής, βάσει του οποίου, για παράδειγμα, στα τόσκικα το Martini τράπηκε σε Mërtiri, συνεχίστηκε η κάθοδος από βορρά προς νότον αλβανόφωνου στοιχείου. Λογικό να υποθέσουμε ότι τα άτομα με το όνομα Martin ή το επώνυμο Martini κατεβαίνουν στη Δρόπολη κατά τους πρώτους αιώνες της δεύτερης μεταχριστιανικής χιλιετίας και συνεχίζουν την πορεία τους νοτιότερα, για να αποτελέσουν τμήματα του σημερινού ελληνικού πληθυσμού, που ονομάζονται (ή έλκουν την καταγωγή τους από τους) Αρβανίτες. Έχοντας υπόψη ότι η Δρόπολη αποτελούσε ανέκαθεν ένα, και μάλιστα το μοναδικό, πέρασμα από βορρά προς νότον, πιστεύουμε πως μια τέτοια προσέγγιση γεφυρώνει την αντίφαση των τοπωνυμικών και ανθρωπωνυμικών δεδομένων της περιοχής. Οι πρόσκαιρες εγκαταστάσεις αλβανοφώνων στη μεσαιωνική και υστερομεσαιωνική Δρόπολη αναστάτωσαν εν μέρει τον δημογραφικό της χάρτη, αλλά δεν κατάφεραν να αλλάξουν την τοπωνυμική της ταυτότητα και σφραγίδα. Επίσης, το ότι σε βάθος χρόνου βλέπουμε να κυριάρχησε η ελληνική και να διασώθηκαν επώνυμα αλβανικής αρχής, σημαίνει ότι οι εγκατεστημένοι τότε αλβανόφωνοι βρήκαν στη Δρόπολη ελληνόφωνο πληθυσμό από τον οποίο αφομοιώθηκαν γλωσσικά. Το ίδιο είχε συμβεί νωρίτερα και με τους σλαβόφωνους πληθυσμούς, τα ίχνη των οποίων είναι παρόντα τόσο στα ανθρωπωνύμια (επώνυμα) όσο και στα τοπωνύμια της περιοχής. Ο συλλογισμός μας αυτός βρίσκει γερό πάτημα όταν εξετάσουμε την ανθρωπωνυμική και τοπωνυμική εικόνα μιας γειτνιάζουσας με τη Δρόπολη περιοχής, του Πωγωνίου. Που ήταν και τότε (αλλά και τώρα) απομονωμένο γεωγραφικά και επομένως γλωσσικά πιο συντηρητικό. Αν συγκρίνουμε τα αντίστοιχα, από άποψη χρόνου, οθωμανικά κατάστιχα των δυο περιοχών, θα διαπιστώσουμε έκπληκτοι ότι στην περίπτωση του Πωγωνίου ο ανθρωπωνυμικός χάρτης δεν περιέχει καθόλου ή περιέχει ελάχιστα ίχνη αλβανικής ονοματολογίας. Που σημαίνει ότι εδώ δεν είχαμε μόνιμη ή πρόσκαιρη παρουσία αλβανόφωνων πληθυσμών.
Concerning the defter of 1519–1520, as an example for the anthroponymy of Pogoni, Kyriazis included a page showing names from the settlement of Poliçan, which is also included in the article Gjendja administrative e zonës së Shqipërisë së Jugut në periudhën klasike dhe mënyra e drejtimit të Perandorisë osmane në Shqipëri by Önder Bayır, published in Kumtesat e simpozjumit "Toleranca në aktet administrative osmane" (2005).
Last, it should be noted that the criticism on Duka's work isn't just limited to his claims concerning the suffix -s, but also extends to other aspects of his approach and methodology; see Giakoumis (2002a, pp. 790–791) for example.
I would like to close this comment by emphasizing again that i am open to a compromise solution; as a sign of good faith, i will remove Liço's view about the anthroponymy that concerns the entirety of Dropull, but i would appreciate reasonable suggestions that can be added as replacements in its stead. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 23:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Në Zervat me 178 familje, 37 nga të cilat me prejardhje nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë kanë antroponime të përziera dhe shumica janë greke. This is incorrect as even if we were to only count the names (e.g., Gjin, Gjon, Leka, Deda, Mirash, Martin/Mërtir, Progon/Progor) or surnames (e.g., Dorgjati, literally meaning 'long-hands') which are unquestionably Albanian, over 80/178 of household heads are in this category. This is without counting their relatives or names which are more likely than not to have been used by Albanians. For example, the Kond family includes the household heads: Gjin, Gjon, Deda, and Kosta Kond, but I have not counted Kosta in the list of likely Albanian households. Liço seems to be counting as non-Albanian or 'mixed' names/household heads such as Deda Kosta or Gjin Kosta, which are neither mixed nor non-Albanian. He also seems to be counting some general Christian names as Greek (e.g., Andrea Nika). The names which are Albanian are not so just because etymologically they happen to be Albanian, but because they developed in and were a part of a specific culture/ethno-linguistic group. Otherwise we would have to consider all household heads bearing the name/surname Kosta as Latin in origin due to an ultimate etymology from Constans.
The villages of Dropull show that the area was multi-ethnic with names of Albanian, Vlach, Greek, and Slavic origin. In about half of the villages, names which can be seen as distinctly Albanian make up the majority of names of household heads, while in the other half names of different origins are present. In some of the settlements, the names of Albanian origin form a minority and the names of other ethno-linguistic groups including Vlachs, Greeks and Slavs form the majority. This is a provisional draft which is open to change, so change it per your own suggestions and we can start working on it. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 18:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
"The presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands from the beginning of the thirteenth century is also attested by two documentary sources: the first is a Venetian document of 1210, which states that the continent facing the island of Corfu is inhabited by Albanians;20 and the second is letters of the Metropolitan of Naupaktos John Apokaukos to a certain George Dysipati, who was considered to be an ancestor of the famous Shpata family.21". I have not access to Liço's publication, is it peer-reviewed? – Βατο ( talk) 12:39, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
The purpose of this article is to put together all of these recent studies, in order to challenge the views of 'older' Greek and Albanian scholarship with respect to the presence of solely Greek or Albanian populations in the regions of Epeiros, with specific reference to the district of Dropull in the light of primary sources dealing with the Albanian immigrations of the fourteenth century.Alexikoua ( talk) 23:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Happy new year to everyone!
Lezhjani, your suggestion is essentially already included in the article; it's pretty much what Kyriazis wrote a little more concisely, so there is no need to repeat it again. However, i do not recall any source explicitly stating that names of Vlach or Slavic origin formed the majority in any settlement; i would need to check again. There is of course the classification of some settlements as Vlach, which is indicative of the dominant ethno-linguistic group in them; but even in those settlements, at least in terms of anthroponyms, we have Duka and Schmitt claiming a strong presence of both the Albanian and Greek elements.
Also, are there any objections for the inclusion of a sentence that will mention the absence of the eight aforementioned settlements? Demetrios1993 ( talk) 14:33, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
The data on births and deaths are public. [5]. There is no reason why they should not be published here, except that some might not like the reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HokutoKen ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
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The newly added content describing Demiraj's position will have to be considerably reduced in size, per WP:WEIGHT.
Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and use of imagery.
The position of Çabej is 169 bytes, of Kyriazis 505 bytes, while of Demiraj 2290 bytes. A paragraph between 500-1000 bytes is more than enough to summarize his position. The rest can be included either as a quote or an
efn note. Aside of all that, Demiraj's view is not only earlier than Kyriazis', but also doesn't consider at all earlier recorded attestations of the name. He jumps from Αδριανούπολις to Dropull. Suffice it to say that his emphatic comparison to Greek, in order to justify earlier stages of evolution for this name, while ignoring the presence of Aromanian and South Slavic dialects in the region, makes his whole approach quite incomplete. Personally, i believe that there was an intermediate form prior of the recorded Αdernoboli and Δερνόπολη (Dernópoli) that can be explained convincingly through Eastern
Balkan Romance at a first stage, and Slavic (local dialects, like for example the one of
Boboshticë and
Drenovë; as recorded by
André Mazon) or Medieval Greek at a second stage. Even his statement about the evolution /-o-/ > /-u-/ in the last syllable of Dropull specifically, can also be explained through Northern Greek (e.g. Θεσσαλονίκη > Σαλονίκη > Σαλουνίκ΄, ἄνθρωπος > άνθρουπους) and Aromanian (e.g. cognatus > cumnat, orationem > uratsiune, leporem > ljepure), aside of Albanian (e.g. collare > kular, cognatus > kunat, leporem > lepur). I could elaborate further on all that, but there is no reason. The issue is the depth of detail for his position.
Demetrios1993 (
talk)
20:37, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
While Katerina Korre does describes the villages of Dropull as Greek-speaking during the early 16th century, her claim is not supported by the archival material that is referenced and is simply an addition of her own. The Ottoman register of 1520 did not record the spoken language of the villagers and thus definitive statements in regards to linguistic character cannot be made. At most, inferences can only be made based on the attested anthroponyms, which were largely Albanian in character as opposed to discernibly Greek. On top of the majority of anthroponyms being from the Albanian onomastic sphere, many also depict characteristics suggesting the usage of Albanian as a spoken language; for example, the diminutive suffix -ush and the personal name Progor which shows Tosk rhotacism from Progon. As such, Korre's claim cannot be held as reliable - as it has no clear evidential basis - and thus should not be used in the article in the context in which it has. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 16:31, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Korre meets both SECONDARY & ACADEMIC, and she is really careful with the presentation of 16th century events in the region. In fact even Albanian editors here used her works quite frequently. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:25, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
It being a case of say assimilated Albanians/Slavs/Vlachs into the Greek nationis WP:OR. Khirurg ( talk) 03:44, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
In her paper 'Συμβολή στην ιστορία του βορειοηπειρωτικού ελληνισμού τα τέλη του 16ου αιώνα: Ματθαίος Παπαγιάννης' (2013), Katerina Korre - who references archival materials such as the Ottoman registers - states that the region of Dropull was Christian and Greek-speaking during the early 16th century. While it is clear from the archival evidence that the region was Christian, they do not comment on the linguistic character of the region - be it Albanian or Greek. As such, there is no evidential basis for her claim and I propose that it should not be used on the article. Her claim is further contradicted by cited paper by Duka (1990) who transliterated the register of 1520 and noted that there was a predominance of Albanian personal names in the region - many of which can only be explained through Albanian (e.g., Djalosh, Progor, Bardh) and show Albanian linguistic influence (e.g., the suffix -ush). This makes Korre's claim that the region was exclusively Greek-speaking during the 16th century even more unlikely.
As for Duka's claim that the lack of names ending in the -s suffix indicating no Greek linguistic influence in the anthroponyms, I am okay with either removing the statement or keeping the counter-argument presented by @ Alexikoua. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 17:55, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
At the beginning of the 16th century the settlements in Dropull were Christian and Greek speaking. Korre (2013):
Στις αρχές του 16ου αιώνα τα κατεκτηµένα εδάφη διαιρέθηκαν ξ-νά από τους Οθωµανούς στα σαντζάκια Ελβασάν (ιδρύθηκε το 1466), Αυλώνας, Σκόδρας, Πρεζρένης και Αχρίδας.(9) To Αργυρόκαστρο εντάχθηκε στο σαντζάκι Αυλώνας και ανέκαµψε σταδιακά µετά από κοινωνική και οικονοµική ύφεση (1432-1507).(10) Αποτέλεσε ένα από τα µεγάλα βιλαέτια και ήταν χωρισµένο σε περισσότερους από έναν ναχιγιέδες.
Ήταν πλαισιωµένο µε χριστιανικά και ελληνόφωνα χωριά που βρίσκονταν στην κοιλάδα της ∆ρόπολης, από τις δύο πλευρές του Μικρού ∆ρίνου (..) Παραµένοντας εντελώς µη µουσουλµανική πόλη, κατέστη αστικό κέντρο ενώ ο πληθυσµός της αυξήθηκε µε την αθρόα εισροή κατοίκων της γειτονικής υπαίθρου, κυρίως τεχνιτών, αγροτών και µικρεµπόρων (11)
Footnotes:(9) Περιελάµβαναν 11 πόλεις και 23 οχυρά. Todorov, Η Βαλκανική Πόλη, ό.π.,σ. 53.
(10) Παρουσιάζεται ρυθµός µέσης ετήσιας µείωσης των νοικοκυριών, της τάξης του 1,8‰ και κατόπιν, από το 1583 και µετά, αύξησης κατά 14‰ των νοικοκυριών του (434 καταγεγραµµένα νοικοκυριά)· ό.π., σ. 102 (πίνακας).
Παρότι το Αργυρόκαστρο εξακολούθησε να υπάγεται από τον 16ο ως τον 19ο αιώνα στο σαντζάκι Αυλώνας, σύµφωνα µε νεότερη διοικητική διαίρεση (1537-1540) το ∆έλβινο έγινε έδρα του οµώνυµου σαντζακίου, στο οποίο προστέθηκαν αρκετές περιοχές από το σαντζάκι της Αυλώνας (όπως ο καζάς της Χειµάρρας) και των Ιωαννίνων(όπως ο καζάς Παραµυθιάς και η περιφέρεια Μαργαριτίου). (..) Πρέπει πάντως να σηµειωθεί ότι η διοικητική ορολογία (σαντζάκι, βιλαέτι, καζάς, ναχιγιές) δεν ακολουθείται πάντα µε συνέπεια στα οθωµανικά έγγραφα της περιόδου. Για τους συναφείς προβληµατισµούς ως προς την οθωµανική διοικητική ονοµατολογία βλ. Κοκολάκης Μιχ., Το Ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι. Χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυ-σµός στην τουρκοκρατούµενη Ήπειρο (1820-1913), Αθήνα 2003, σσ. 99-103, 123
(11) Ό.π., σσ. 93, 118.
At the beginning of the 16th century the conquered lands were divided again by the Ottomans in the sanjaks of Elbasan (1466) Vlora, Shkodra, Prizren and Ohrid.(9) Gjirokastër became part of the sanjak of Vlora and recovered gradually after social and economic recession (1432-1507).(10) It became one of the big vilayets and was divided in more than one nahiyes.
It was surrounded by Christian and Greek-speaking villages which were located in the valley of Dropull on the two sides of the Lesser Drin (..) As it was an entirely non-Muslim city, its population increased with waves of new inhabitants from the nearby countryside, mostly craftsmen, farmers, small merchants. (11)
Footnotes: (9) They included 11 towns and 23 forts. Todorov, The Balkan City, op. cit. p 53.
(10) There is a decrease in the average number of households (1.8%) and then after 1583, an increase of households by 14% (434 registered households) op. cit. p. 102 (table).
While Gjirokastër was still under the sanjak of Vlora from the 16th to the 19th century, according to the more recent administrative division (1537-1549) Delvina became the seat of the sanjak of the same name under which several areas of the sanjaks of Vlora (like the kaza of Himara) and of Yanina (like the kaza of Paramythia and the district of Margariti) were placed. (..) It has to be noted that correct administrative terminology is not always used in Ottoman documents of the era. For the relevant discussion about Ottoman administrative terminology see Kokolakis M., The Later Pashalik of Yannina: Topography, Administration and Population in Ottoman Epiros (1820-1913)
(11) op. cit. pp. 93, 118.
It was surrounded by Christian and Greek-speaking villages which were located in the valley of Dropull on the two sides of the Lesser Drinbut this statement is not about the early 16th century which is what was disputed by several editors. I don't think that anyone is disputing the assertion that by the 19th century, many villages of Dropull were Greek-speaking. @ Lezhjani1444: Since there is no dispute, you may close the RfC. I checked the defters themselves and it's clear that the people who lived in Greek-speaking Zagori from a linguistic perspective can't be the same as those of most villages of Dropull. There is an overall sharp difference in anthroponymy. I do think that some parts can be expanded as there are inner differences as well. There is a distinction between Vrahogoranxi and Goranxi. Vrahogoranxi has predominantly Albanian names, while Goranxi has some Albanian anthroponymy, but here there are many more Yianni than Gjon/Gjin combined. It can't be a coincidence that all the Papadopullo (even though one of them is named Gjon), Despoti, Manodoris, Yorgec are in this village, but nowhere else in Dropull a Papadopullo or a Despoti is found. This can be interpreted in many ways but in the context of the defter it has to be noted that at least one village in the region did differ from the other ones. It's clear that there is a population difference between a village like Zervat where Gjin/Gjon/Deda are found in all kinds of combinations and Goranxi. A statistical example is the name Deda. There are 20 Deda (personal name or patronymic) in ~200 household heads of Zervat = 1/10 adult men who had their own household in Zervat was some sort of Deda. In Goranxi, there are 4 Deda in 152 households = ~2.6%. The ratio is about the same for all Albanian names. There are 40 Gjin (or derivative compounds like Gjindonati) in 200 households of Zervat = 20% of all household heads, but in Goranxi there are 6/152 Gjin = 4%. Hence, just the names Gjin + Deda are found in 30% of Zervat, but in 6.6% of Goranxi. This highlights a sharp inner distinction in the region.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:15, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
According to Kostantinos Giakoumis, various works inside Albania, including Duka's research about Dropull, attempt to portray the presence of a non-Albanian population as an outcome of colonization from neighbouring kin-state territoriesbecause Duka (1990) doesn't support the statement that the Greeks of Dropull come from "outside colonization". Duka (1990) writes
Cinquièmement : dans l'antroponymie de Dropull se trouvent reflétés des déplacements mécaniques de la population des régions ou des villages voisins (Zagori, Labove) vers Dropull, ainsi que des mouvements de cette même nature, à l'intérieur de la région de Dropull. Ainsi, dans quelques villages, il y a des chefs de famille qui portent des noms de famille tels que Zagoriti Laboviti , etc.).
(Voir à ce sujet les villages Llovine et Bodrishte ). Outre ce fait, l'on ne constate dans aucun cas des traces du déplacement vers Dropull d'habitants des régions de la Grèce.(translation: (..) in no case can we find traces of the move to Dropull of inhabitants from regions of Greece. I'm not sure if the original paper which I can't check right now has been cited correctly or if this statement refers to another academic discussion. In any case, it is not pertinent to the discussion about the 1520 defter of Dropull as Duka doesn't argue in favor of any colonization from any area of Greece.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:50, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Liço, Filip (2009). Probleme të marrëdhënieve greko-shqiptare:
p. 452: Për këtë ai sjell disa shembuj nga regjistrimet turke të 1431, 1520 dhe 1583. Por në regjistrimet turke që trajtuam në fillim dalin dy konkluzione kryesore:
E para se shumica e antroponimeve janë greke.
E dyta se pakica e emrave janë shqiptare, si: Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, Martin etj. karakteristike e malësorëve shqiptarë që emigruan drejt Thesalisë dhe Epirit në shekujt XII-XV.
pp. 459–460: Mirëpo, nëse analizojmë me kujdes këtë kategori të antroponimeve, konstatojmë:
Së pari: këto antroponime janë karakteristike të Shqipërisë Veriore, gjë që autori nuk e përmend fare...
Së dyti: këto antroponime jo vetëm që nuk kanë ndonjë superioritet, por paraqesin një përhapje që vërteton preferencën e tyre për t'u vendosur në fshatra malore e veçanërisht të Dropullit të Sipërm.
pp. 466–467: Historikisht është i njohur fakti i shpërnguljes valë-valë i banorëve të Shqipërisë Veriore gjatë shek. XII-XV në drejtim të Epirit e Thesalisë dhe, më pas, të Greqisë Jugore. Nga këto dhjetëra mijë shqiptarë, një pjesë e vogël mbeti në Dropull. Kush ishte fati i këtyre malësorëve shqiptarë? Përse nuk mbijetuan në krahinën e Dropullit? Si shpjegohet fakti se kemi shumë mbiemra dhe shumë pak toponime me prejardhje shqiptare? Dy janë shkaqet kryesore:
1) Një pjesë e familjeve shqiptare, që zbritën nga Shqipëria Veriore, kanë emigruar në Greqinë Jugore, duke ndjekur shembullin e shqiptarëve që ishin vendosur në Epirin Juglindor dhe në Thesali.
2) Pjesa që mbeti në fshatrat e Dropullit u asimilua mbi bazën e parimit: shumica asimilon pakicën.
pp. 467–468: Në historinë mijëravjeçare të popujve e veçanërisht në Perandorinë Bizantine dhe në përgjithësi në mesjetë, kishim periodikisht zhvendosje dhe emigracione të popujve. Defteri i Sanxhakut të Vlorës i viteve 1519–1520 është një dokument i padiskutueshëm. Këtë regjistrim duhet ta analizojmë me kujdesin dhe seriozitetin e duhur, pa paragjykime dhe me objektivitet shkencor. U përpoqëm t'i analizojmë antroponimet e fshatrave të Dropullit në fillim të shek. XVI, pa nënvleftësuar e pa zvogëluar çdo gjë që ka prejardhje shqiptare dhe pa hiperbolizuar çdo gjë që lidhet me prejardhje greke. Për të evituar përsëritjen e konkluzioneve të çdo pjese, dëshirojmë të theksojmë dy probleme:
1. Duke pranuar se antroponimia e Dropullit pa fundoren "s" është shqiptare, jemi të detyruar të pranojmë se popullsia grekofone e Dropullit ka ardhur në këtë trevë pas vitit 1520.
Por shkencërisht kjo është e papranueshme. Analiza e antroponimive të Dropullit vërteton se fundorja "s" nuk ka asnjë lidhje me prejardhjen shqipe të tyre.
2. Regjistrimi i 1520-ës nga ana e pushtuesve turq vulos faktin se shumica e banorëve të fshatrave të Dropullit është grekofone, se para pushtimit turk Dropulli kishte karakter etnik grek.
Demetrios1993 ( talk) 23:50, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Probleme të marrëdhënieve greko-shqiptare (2009) by Filip Liço has been cited a number of times on this article, especially in relation to onomastics and toponymic analysis. This is an issue since Liço's work contains a number of errors and misinformation on those specific topics/fronts and does not pass as RS:
1) Liço argues that the Albanian anthroponymic element represents a minority in Dropull and that they are only really concentrated in the villages of Upper Dropull (Së dyti: këto antroponime jo vetëm që nuk kanë ndonjë superioritet, por paraqesin një përhapje që vërteton preferencën e tyre për t'u vendosur në fshatra malore e veçanërisht të Dropullit të Sipërm
). This is demonstrably erroneous. For example, in the village of Terihat in Lower Dropull, 52/56 (92.85%) of household heads bore typical Albanian personal names. Similarly, in neighbouring Jorgucat, at least 45/57 (78.94%) of household heads bore Albanian anthroponyms.
2) Furthermore, Liço makes the extremely incorrect and misleading claim that the recorded Albanian element of Dropull was primarily represented by settlers from the northern highland territories of Albania. This, Liço argues, being suggested by the presence of names such as Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, and Martin. It is common knowledge that these names were/are pan-Albanian names found across the country since the medieval period. There is no 'northern' character. As such, there is no evidence for this fanciful migration from the north, it is Liço's own unsubstantiated belief.
3) There are RS implications about the source because it does not seem to be published in a scientific (WP:RSCONTEXT) but as a general anthology of essays on 'Albanian-Greek Problems' and it might be self-published to a degree.
Due to this, I suggest Liço (2009) be removed, at the very least on the occasions where his claims are verifiably incorrect. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 22:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
E dyta se pakica e emrave janë shqiptare, si: Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, Martin etj. karakteristike e malësorëve shqiptarë që emigruan drejt Thesalisë dhe Epirit në shekujt XII-XV.Translation: A minority of names are Albanian like: Gjin, Gjon Dedë, Martin etc. - [names which are] characteristic of the Albanian highlanders who migrated towards Thessaly and Epirus in the 12th-15th centuries. If this statement is correct or not only requires a routine WP:CALC investigation which involves simply counting the names which have an unambiguously Albanian component - what the author himself describes. @ Lezhjani1444:@ Demetrios1993: what do the defters per settlement show? I'm all for comparing and contrasting sources, but there has to be some contextualization of the claims of each author. I did something similar in the past [4]. I think that if we examine the issue in this context we may find out that there are sharp differences between the settlements of Dropull.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:59, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Për këtë ai sjell disa shembuj nga regjistrimet turke të 1431, 1520 dhe 1583. Por në regjistrimet turke që trajtuam në fillim dalin dy konkluzione kryesore: E para se shumica e antroponimeve janë greke. E dyta se pakica e emrave janë shqiptare, si: Gjin, Gjon, Dedë, Martin etj. karakteristike e malësorëve shqiptarë që emigruan drejt Thesalisë dhe Epirit në shekujt XII-XV.(p. 452).
According to Kyriazis (2022), the Albanian anthroponymic element is indeed significant, but there are also settlements with mixed Greek, Slavic, Albanian, and Aromanian anthroponyms, as well as settlements where the predominance of Greek anthroponyms is evident; such as in Derviçan-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I would like to thank everyone for their comments and for waiting until I was able to respond. For the record, you didn't have to ping me five times; one was enough. I should also clarify that due to the nature of my profession, my time is extremely limited; so please, bear with me.
Liço doesn't claim that the Albanian anthroponymic element is to be found only in the villages of Upper Dropull. He simply says that the distribution of these names indicates the preference of their bearers for mountainous settlements, especially in Upper Dropull. The fact that he doesn't exclude Lower Dropull is further confirmed by his presentation of precise figures – concerning such anthroponyms – in settlements that are to be found in both subdivisions. Take for example the following excerpt:
p. 460: Në Dropullin e Sipërm:
a. Në Goranxinë e Sipërme me 131 familje, afërsisht gjysma e antroponimeve janë nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë – të përziera dhe të tjerat janë greke. Sot ky fshat me emrin Krioneri është i vogël dhe me një sipërfaqe të kufizuar, që ishte e pamundur të përfshinte 131 familje. Ky fakt na imponon hipotezën se atëherë Goranxia e Sipërme shtrihej në drejtim të Selos ose akoma edhe drejt Klisarit, gjersa që të dy këto fshatra nuk përmenden fare.
b. Në Zervat me 178 familje, 37 nga të cilat me prejardhje nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë kanë antroponime të përziera dhe shumica janë greke.
c. Në Bodrishtë me 147 familje, 15 vinin nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë kanë antroponime të përziera (veçanërisht me emra dhe mbiemra të Shqipërisë Jugore) dhe pjesa më e madhe e tyre janë greke.
Në Dropullin e Poshtëm:
a. Në Goranxinë e Poshtme me 142 familje, 10 kishin prejardhje nga Shqipëria Veriore, të pakta ishin antroponimet e përziera dhe shumica e tyre greke.
b. Në Derviçan me 298 familje, 3 ishin nga Shqipëria Veriore, me pak antroponime të përziera, numri më i madh i të cilave ishin greke.
It would be interesting to know the frequency of Albanian names if we were to also consider kinship ties and Christian names; the inclusion of the actual size of each settlement would also allow for easier comparison. However, the above shows that WP:CALC cannot be applied here without difficulties, as the author uses a different methodology and categorization scheme. For example, when he refers to clearly Albanian anthroponyms, he doesn't seem to include mixed cases among them. Then there are also names such as Nika – included in Lezhjani's statistics – which Liço views differently. For example:
pp. 462–463: Me antroponimet Niko, Nikolla dhe Nika, para se të shohim paraqitjen e tyre në defterin e vitit 1520, është e domosdoshme të përcaktojmë prejardhjen etimologjike të fjalës. Kjo kategori antroponimesh mund të shpjegohen vetëm nëpërmjet greqishtes dhe jo të shqipes, duke përfshirë edhe tipin Nika. Prejardhja e tyre vjen nga rrënja e emrit Nikollaos-Nikollas, tipi i shkurtuar është Nikos-Niko. Nikollaos (niqi tu llau), sepse kjo fjalë e përbërë vjen nga niqi 'fitorja' dhe llaos 'popull'. Nga shqyrtimi i kujdesshëm i regjistrimit të 21 fshatrave emri Niko përmendet 43 herë. Pra, nuk është eklipsuar nga antroponimi Nika. Gjithashtu antroponimi Niko përmendet 11 herë si mbiemër. Si pasojë, duhet të arrijmë në konkluzionin se kemi të bëjmë me një gabim. Sepse nuk e kemi Niko si mbiemër as në greqisht dhe as në shqip. ... Tani le të vazhdojmë me dy tipa të tjerë: Nikolla dhe Nika. Antroponimi Nikolla përmendet 33 herë si emër dhe 21 herë si mbiemër. Antroponimi Nika përmendet 93 herë si emër dhe 41 herë si mbiemër. Antroponimi Nika etimologjikisht nuk shpjegohet nëpërmjet shqipes. Të marra prej antroponimeve të Shqipërisë Jugore antroponimi Niko u përdor në Shqipërinë Veriore me formën e pashquar Nik dhe formën e shquar Nika. Prandaj nuk dyshojmë se një pjesë e kryefamiljarëve e këtij regjistrimi janë familje shqiptare. Megjithatë kemi edhe familje me antroponime të përziera si: Nika Vasili, Nika Dhima. Nika Papa, Nika Minguli (e fundit me prejardhje nga fshati Minguli e Lunxhërisë) etj. Akoma konstatojmë se kemi edhe fshatra të Dropullit që nuk kanë asnjë kryefamiljar me mbiemër Nika. Kështu p.sh. në Goranxinë e Dropullit të Poshtëm nuk kemi Nika as si emër dhe as si mbiemër; në Bodristë nuk kemi asnjë emër Nika, por vetëm 3 si mbiemër; në Vodhino nuk kemi asnjë emër apo mbiemër Nika etj. Gjithashtu duhet të theksojmë se Nika si mbiemër ka ekzistuar edhe në të kaluarën edhe sot në Dropullin e Poshtëm dhe atë të Sipërm. Po kështu me mbiemrin Nika kemi familje shqiptare gjithnjë në këtë regjistrim, si: Gjon Nika, Kont Nika, Gjin Nika etj. ashtu siç kemi edhe familje greke siç janë: Qira Nika, Qirjaqi Nika, Andrea Nika etj.
He has analyzed some additional names, but regardless, having said all that, i am still open to a compromise solution. We could for example replace the sentence that concerns Liço's general view about the frequency of Albanian anthroponyms in all of Dropull, with something more specific, such as a summary of the figures for the five aforementioned settlements of Goranxi e Sipërme, Zervat, Bodrishtë, Goranxinë e Poshtme, and Derviçan; in-text attribution goes without saying. I also have no problem removing his view that these names were characteristic of northern Albania; though even if we accept that such names were pan-Albanian, by that time at least, it doesn't really exclude the possibility of a northern Albanian origin. Personally, i do not know much about this topic, but Liço added the following: "pakica e shqiptarëve vinte nga emigracioni i malësorëve shqiptarë në shekujt XIV-XV, që e trajtuam më sipër në bazë të dokumenteve bizantine." This indicates that he might have included relevant information in a prior chapter titled "Principatat shqiptare në shekujt XIV-XV" (pp. 44–66); unfortunately i do not have access to it. Something else i found interesting from Duka's work, is that in the neighboring town of Gjirokastër, names such as Gjin, Gjon, Gjoka, Leka, etc., aren't attested in the defter of 1520; Duka tries to explain this, but there are some flaws in his reasoning which i don't want to expand on. By the way, why was the sentence about the surnames which Liço considers characteristically Greek, removed? I don't agree with the removal of that sentence, which even includes examples mentioned by Schmitt (2015).
Alexikoua, the fact that Duka's article doesn't include all settlements of Dropull, is also mentioned by Liço:
p. 459: Në bazë të këtij defteri analitik (musafal) fshatrat e Dropullit, pa ndryshuar renditjen e tyre, janë si vijon: Goranxi e Sipërme, Zervat, Asharat (Isharat), Goranxi e Poshtme, Vodhinë, Koshovica, Gergucat, Bodristë, Terihat, Lugari, Gorica, Grapsh, Letovinë, Dhuvjani, Llovina, Frastani i Poshtëm, Krina, Derviçan, Haskovë, Vanista, Sofratika. Nga Dropulli i Sipërm nuk përmenden: Bularati, Kra, Klisari, Selo, Sotira, Longo, Kakavia dhe Ai-Nikolla. Gjithashtu duhet të verifikojmë dhe të përcaktojmë emrin dhe vendin e fshatrave Asharat dhe Krina. Sa i takon emrit Letovinë është fjala për fshatin e vogël Letovishtë perballë Derviçanit dhe poshtë nga fshati Suhë.
This should probably be included in the article. Furthermore, to answer your other question, the toponymy of Dropull is available in a ten-year study by Liço, which is titled Dropulli – studim historiko-gjuhësor (1990); it was approved by the Institute of History of the Academy of Albanological Studies, and is available for study in their archive in Tirana, but remains unpublished. The toponymy of Dropull is also available in the book Τα τοπωνύμια των πανάρχαιων ελληνικών χωριών του νομού Αργυροκάστρου (2005). As for the toponymy of northern Pogoni, it is available in the book Πωγωνύμια: Ονόματα και ταυτότητες από το Bόρειο Πωγώνι της Ηπείρου (2021); southern Pogoni is excluded from that work, but is available in another book titled Τα οικωνύμια του Νομού Ιωαννίνων: γλωσσολογική εξέταση (2002).
Lezhjani, here is the excerpt you requested from Kyriazis' article.
pp. 42–43: Η δεύτερη ένστασή μας σχετίζεται με το γεγονός ότι, με βάση ξανά τη μεθοδολογική αρχή για συνολική και πολυεπίπεδη εξέταση των δεδομένων, περνώντας τώρα από τα ανθρωπωνύμια στα τοπωνύμια της Δρόπολης, δεν μπορούμε να μη διαπιστώσουμε την απόλυτη κυριαρχία του ελληνικού στοιχείου και δευτερευόντως του σλαβικού. Το εύρημα αυτό σηκώνει συζήτηση και εγείρει σοβαρά ερωτηματικά. Ο Φ. Λίτσιος έχει υπολογίσει ότι από 2.778 τοπωνύμια των χωριών της σημερινής Δρόπολης (ονομασίες οικισμών και μικροτοπωνύμια) 2.324 είναι ελληνικής αρχής, 57 σλαβικής, 184 αλβανικής, 90 τουρκικής και 123 άγνωστης προέλευσης. Παρότι δεν έχουμε συντάξει παρόμοιους πίνακες, ξεκινώντας από το πολύτιμο υλικό ενός αξιόλογου βιβλίου για τα τοπωνύμια της Δρόπολης, καρπού αφοσιωμένης εργασίας των συνταξιούχων δασκάλων της περιοχής, φτάνουμε λίγο πολύ στα ίδια συμπεράσματα, έχοντας ορισμένες επιφυλάξεις για την πιθανολογούμενη συχνότερη παρουσία των σλάβικων τοπωνυμιών, που τη διαπιστώνουμε και στα ονόματα των χωριών της Δρόπολης. Προς επίρρωση της ιδέας για μια πιο σύνθετη ανθρωπωνυμική εικόνα της Δρόπολης γύρω στα 1500, αναφέρουμε και άλλο ένα εντυπωσιακό εύρημα. Στα οθωμανικά κατάστιχα των οικισμών της Δρόπολης, του 1520 και 1583, εμφανίζεται αρκετά συχνά το όνομα/επώνυμο Martin / Martini και σπανίζει ο τύπος του επωνύμου Mërtiri. Το στοιχείο αυτό είναι ένα σημαντικό και ισχυρό επιχείρημα, που επιβεβαιώνει το ότι, μετά τουλάχιστον τον 10ο αιώνα, όταν είχε ολοκληρωθεί το φαινόμενο του ρωτακισμού της αλβανικής, βάσει του οποίου, για παράδειγμα, στα τόσκικα το Martini τράπηκε σε Mërtiri, συνεχίστηκε η κάθοδος από βορρά προς νότον αλβανόφωνου στοιχείου. Λογικό να υποθέσουμε ότι τα άτομα με το όνομα Martin ή το επώνυμο Martini κατεβαίνουν στη Δρόπολη κατά τους πρώτους αιώνες της δεύτερης μεταχριστιανικής χιλιετίας και συνεχίζουν την πορεία τους νοτιότερα, για να αποτελέσουν τμήματα του σημερινού ελληνικού πληθυσμού, που ονομάζονται (ή έλκουν την καταγωγή τους από τους) Αρβανίτες. Έχοντας υπόψη ότι η Δρόπολη αποτελούσε ανέκαθεν ένα, και μάλιστα το μοναδικό, πέρασμα από βορρά προς νότον, πιστεύουμε πως μια τέτοια προσέγγιση γεφυρώνει την αντίφαση των τοπωνυμικών και ανθρωπωνυμικών δεδομένων της περιοχής. Οι πρόσκαιρες εγκαταστάσεις αλβανοφώνων στη μεσαιωνική και υστερομεσαιωνική Δρόπολη αναστάτωσαν εν μέρει τον δημογραφικό της χάρτη, αλλά δεν κατάφεραν να αλλάξουν την τοπωνυμική της ταυτότητα και σφραγίδα. Επίσης, το ότι σε βάθος χρόνου βλέπουμε να κυριάρχησε η ελληνική και να διασώθηκαν επώνυμα αλβανικής αρχής, σημαίνει ότι οι εγκατεστημένοι τότε αλβανόφωνοι βρήκαν στη Δρόπολη ελληνόφωνο πληθυσμό από τον οποίο αφομοιώθηκαν γλωσσικά. Το ίδιο είχε συμβεί νωρίτερα και με τους σλαβόφωνους πληθυσμούς, τα ίχνη των οποίων είναι παρόντα τόσο στα ανθρωπωνύμια (επώνυμα) όσο και στα τοπωνύμια της περιοχής. Ο συλλογισμός μας αυτός βρίσκει γερό πάτημα όταν εξετάσουμε την ανθρωπωνυμική και τοπωνυμική εικόνα μιας γειτνιάζουσας με τη Δρόπολη περιοχής, του Πωγωνίου. Που ήταν και τότε (αλλά και τώρα) απομονωμένο γεωγραφικά και επομένως γλωσσικά πιο συντηρητικό. Αν συγκρίνουμε τα αντίστοιχα, από άποψη χρόνου, οθωμανικά κατάστιχα των δυο περιοχών, θα διαπιστώσουμε έκπληκτοι ότι στην περίπτωση του Πωγωνίου ο ανθρωπωνυμικός χάρτης δεν περιέχει καθόλου ή περιέχει ελάχιστα ίχνη αλβανικής ονοματολογίας. Που σημαίνει ότι εδώ δεν είχαμε μόνιμη ή πρόσκαιρη παρουσία αλβανόφωνων πληθυσμών.
Concerning the defter of 1519–1520, as an example for the anthroponymy of Pogoni, Kyriazis included a page showing names from the settlement of Poliçan, which is also included in the article Gjendja administrative e zonës së Shqipërisë së Jugut në periudhën klasike dhe mënyra e drejtimit të Perandorisë osmane në Shqipëri by Önder Bayır, published in Kumtesat e simpozjumit "Toleranca në aktet administrative osmane" (2005).
Last, it should be noted that the criticism on Duka's work isn't just limited to his claims concerning the suffix -s, but also extends to other aspects of his approach and methodology; see Giakoumis (2002a, pp. 790–791) for example.
I would like to close this comment by emphasizing again that i am open to a compromise solution; as a sign of good faith, i will remove Liço's view about the anthroponymy that concerns the entirety of Dropull, but i would appreciate reasonable suggestions that can be added as replacements in its stead. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 23:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Në Zervat me 178 familje, 37 nga të cilat me prejardhje nga Shqipëria Veriore, një pjesë kanë antroponime të përziera dhe shumica janë greke. This is incorrect as even if we were to only count the names (e.g., Gjin, Gjon, Leka, Deda, Mirash, Martin/Mërtir, Progon/Progor) or surnames (e.g., Dorgjati, literally meaning 'long-hands') which are unquestionably Albanian, over 80/178 of household heads are in this category. This is without counting their relatives or names which are more likely than not to have been used by Albanians. For example, the Kond family includes the household heads: Gjin, Gjon, Deda, and Kosta Kond, but I have not counted Kosta in the list of likely Albanian households. Liço seems to be counting as non-Albanian or 'mixed' names/household heads such as Deda Kosta or Gjin Kosta, which are neither mixed nor non-Albanian. He also seems to be counting some general Christian names as Greek (e.g., Andrea Nika). The names which are Albanian are not so just because etymologically they happen to be Albanian, but because they developed in and were a part of a specific culture/ethno-linguistic group. Otherwise we would have to consider all household heads bearing the name/surname Kosta as Latin in origin due to an ultimate etymology from Constans.
The villages of Dropull show that the area was multi-ethnic with names of Albanian, Vlach, Greek, and Slavic origin. In about half of the villages, names which can be seen as distinctly Albanian make up the majority of names of household heads, while in the other half names of different origins are present. In some of the settlements, the names of Albanian origin form a minority and the names of other ethno-linguistic groups including Vlachs, Greeks and Slavs form the majority. This is a provisional draft which is open to change, so change it per your own suggestions and we can start working on it. Lezhjani1444 ( talk) 18:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
"The presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands from the beginning of the thirteenth century is also attested by two documentary sources: the first is a Venetian document of 1210, which states that the continent facing the island of Corfu is inhabited by Albanians;20 and the second is letters of the Metropolitan of Naupaktos John Apokaukos to a certain George Dysipati, who was considered to be an ancestor of the famous Shpata family.21". I have not access to Liço's publication, is it peer-reviewed? – Βατο ( talk) 12:39, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
The purpose of this article is to put together all of these recent studies, in order to challenge the views of 'older' Greek and Albanian scholarship with respect to the presence of solely Greek or Albanian populations in the regions of Epeiros, with specific reference to the district of Dropull in the light of primary sources dealing with the Albanian immigrations of the fourteenth century.Alexikoua ( talk) 23:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Happy new year to everyone!
Lezhjani, your suggestion is essentially already included in the article; it's pretty much what Kyriazis wrote a little more concisely, so there is no need to repeat it again. However, i do not recall any source explicitly stating that names of Vlach or Slavic origin formed the majority in any settlement; i would need to check again. There is of course the classification of some settlements as Vlach, which is indicative of the dominant ethno-linguistic group in them; but even in those settlements, at least in terms of anthroponyms, we have Duka and Schmitt claiming a strong presence of both the Albanian and Greek elements.
Also, are there any objections for the inclusion of a sentence that will mention the absence of the eight aforementioned settlements? Demetrios1993 ( talk) 14:33, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
The data on births and deaths are public. [5]. There is no reason why they should not be published here, except that some might not like the reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HokutoKen ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)