This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
How about mentioning the Drag Queen Story Hours held at libraries all around the United States in which drag queen read books promoting drag queens and LGBT to young children (maybe yours)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.67.75 ( talk) 03:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't know how more elaboration is possible. As for why this would be an improvement to the article, it helps make the article complete in it's informative nature, as the site intends. Here is a super reliable source- the program's own website: https://www.dragqueenstoryhour.org/. It may not be in "acceptable" press coverage because many people would no doubt be outraged by the program. Hey, how about this site that shows how much the program's people really care enough about children when it comes to making sure who they accept and send out as story readers: https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-public-library-admits-registered-child-sex-offender-read-to-kids-in-drag-queen-storytime/285-becf3a0d-56c5-4f3c-96df-add07bbd002a — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.67.75 ( talk) 22:16, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Mathglot has asked I respond to possible conflict of interest issues for adding photos to articles relating to Gillette, Wyoming. I don't work for the city, no one pays me to edit, and I gain nothing from it other than knowledge and experience. Also, I have no connection to the person in the photo or the groups that hosted the event. The only relationship I to the content I contribute to Wikipedia wether its written text, data, or photos is I created it. If that addresses all the COI concerns please restore the edit [1] Old revision of Drag queen. Mr. Satterly ( talk) 00:54, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
"Wow! Who knew?!" - It would be nice if the first sentence in the lead made sense. I've tried to fix it now. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 12:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
[p]ointing out that women wear women's clothingis what is actually happening in that sentence, though. The sentence defines a drag queen as a person who performs in women's clothing, with the added context that such performers as usually (but not exclusively) men. If we were discussing a sentence that literally read,
Women wear women's clothing, I would probably agree with you. I will respond further in the new section below. Armadillopteryx talk 03:31, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
... or only those that are performance artists? And who says so? Maybe someday we'll land with a lead that's accurate and acceptable. This is still a major problem. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 10:32, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
we must not write anything that in any way means that women wear women's clothing, no matter what the context, and no matter how roundaboutis an accurate reflection of the sentences I am proposing. Could you explain to me why this is your reading? I mean that with full respect and sincerity: I think you and I are reading the same exact sentences with very different interpretations, and I am having some trouble seeing where you are coming from.
women wear women's clothing, which has been a paraphrase you presented earlier. Perhaps the key is that I see an important semantic distinction between
Some drag queens are womenand
Women wear women's clothing, whereas you do not. Would that be an accurate statement?
Here is a nice article in Nylon that addresses the very question we're asking—i.e. how to define drag in the modern age—and also includes specific discussion of female drag queens. It offers these three definitions as examples:
Do you think any of those is a good place for us to begin or adapt our definition of "drag queen" in this article? I am partial to #2 myself. It adapts smoothly into something like A drag queen is a person/artist/performer who uses costume and makeup to exaggerate gender signifiers. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women.
Obviously we have to clean it up so that it's not such close paraphrasing, but this is just an idea to start.
Armadillopteryx
talk
02:28, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate traditionally female gender signifiers. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women for entertainment purposes.
SergeWoodzing, reverting my edit was petty, demonstrates ownership issues, and made the prose worse. And re-added an ugly citation needed flag in the opening sentence which is a red flag to all that writing needs help. Sobeit, I had improved the lead as such
Drag queens are performance artists who dress in women's clothing and often act with exaggerated femininity, and in feminine gender roles primarily to entertain. They often exaggerate make-up and their drag to dramatic, comedic or satirical effect. Drag queens are closely associated with gay men and gay culture, although queens can be of any gender and sexuality.
I hope other editors are treated better than I was. Gleeanon409 ( talk) 09:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate traditionally female gender signifiers. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women for entertainment purposes.This addresses your concern about the citation needed tag that we would all like to see removed. What do you think of this version? I am personally happy with it and would like to put it in the article. Armadillopteryx talk 21:47, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person using costuming and make-up to imitate, and often exaggerate, traditionally female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.Gleeanon409 ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women. In modern times, female drag is associated with gay men and gay culture, but people of other gender and sexual identities also perform as drag queens.
In modern times, drag queens are associated with gay men and gay culture, although queens can be of any gender and sexual identity.Until the entire article is overhauled and the lead expanded I see no reason not to explicitly state these facts upfront and in context. Gleeanon409 ( talk) 04:09, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
What I especially like about that smooth wording is the fact (as per my rather vast experience) that a drag queen always can be considered to be in the act of entertaining, usually others, but in any case h-self. Thanx again! -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 13:30, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I've made some clarity edits to the whole lead, and there are a couple parts I think could benefit from some brainstorming:
Drag queens vary by type, culture, and dedication ..., but what on earth does that actually mean? Drag queens vary by "type", but nowhere is type of what specified. And what does it mean for a drag queen (as opposed to drag, i.e. as an art form) to vary by culture? I think this sentence could use some TLC (if not WP:TNT) :-D
venues such as cabarets and nightclubs. However, a cabaret is a type of show, not a venue, so I'm thinking something like this may be better:
Drag shows frequently include lip-syncing, live singing, and dancing. They occur at events like gay pride parades, drag pageants, and cabarets; these can be hosted outdoors or in venues such as nightclubs and theatres.
Thoughts? Armadillopteryx talk 02:32, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person, usually male, who uses drag clothing and makeup to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.We could possibly even scrap the second sentence altogether if we do this.
Exclusive of the question about performance, the wording almost always male seems uncontroversial. Even if it isn’t, it’s the stable version, and per WP:BRD should remain while this is being discussed. I’ve restored that wording. Mathglot ( talk) 02:52, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
almost alwaysmen suggests that the subset of queens who are non-male is smaller than it really is. Armadillopteryx talk 09:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
To me the main question for the lead is not if many women have acts that resemble/emulate/glorify/celebrate drag queens, which of course they do, but whether or not many women specifically are called "drag queens" (note, and I quote "drag queens" - end of quote). I have been asking for that speific question to be clearly addressed here, and unless it is, I will continue to be confused about that. If there are mainstream reliable sources that substantiate that women often are called (quote) "drag queens" they shoud be added to the article. If none exist, this discussion seems moot. We are just trying to define, in the opening of the aricle, what a (quote) "drag queen" actually is. Aren't we? -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 13:09, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Drag queens, otherwise known as 'female impersonators,' are most typically gay cisgender men (though there are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities) who perform and entertain on stage in nightclubs and bars.[26]
The art of drag is no longer exclusive to men. Drag is for everyone, including biological women. The tradition defining a drag queen as a man who dresses up in women's clothes, typically for the purposes of entertainment, is changing rapidly in Dallas.It later says,
While each performer may prefer a different title, there seems to be a consensus that, above all, female queens are drag queens.[27]
[T]here are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities. [34] But again, you respond as though your concern was not addressed. And this is in addition to the fact that this specific wording in a source seems to be your own personal criterion rather than an established or consensus-based one.
It's a lot to wade through for an interested person with limited time. If any of the added sources cleary and reliably state that "many" (many) women are known as (quote) "drag queens", I'd like that speficic source wording quoted here, please. To me it's a prerequisite for making the suggested change to the lead. As far as I know "almost always", statistically, is still correct, but I am open to change my mind depending on the sources. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
[T]here are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities. Your insistence on the exact phrase "many women are known as drag queens" is a little bewildering when a lot of the sourcing I have presented on this page states as much in different words. I think that demanding a specific line of text for a criterion that is personal to you is neither reasonable nor productive. I would like to respectfully suggest that if you are so adamant about the phrase "almost always male", the onus is on you to provide sourcing for such. I've provided lots of sourcing to the contrary, some of which is now in the article per your request.
While each performer may prefer a different title, there seems to be a consensus that, above all, female queens are drag queens.Would that be helpful? Armadillopteryx talk 20:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I've made
an edit to the article body to incorporate some of what has been discussed on this talk page. How does this look to those interested, and do we feel it's reasonable to change almost always male
to usually male
in the lead now? I'd like to note that the longstanding, stable definition of drag king in this article states that those performers are usually women
, not almost always women
. I made some clarity/grammar edits to the whole paragraph, including that section, but I did not change that specific wording (see
previous version of page).
Armadillopteryx
talk
09:00, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Though I am prepared to continue the almost always vs. usually debate if necessary, I've just had an idea that may be more appealing to everyone:
A drag queen is a person, traditionally male, who uses drag clothing and makeup to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.
I like this somewhat better than usually male and (obviously) a lot better than almost always male. The word traditionally gives a nod to the fact that most historically recorded drag queens have been men and also carries the implication that this is presently the most common case, crucially, without making any explicit insinuations as to the prevalence of male and non-male queens.
There is already sourcing in the article to support the historical implication of traditionally as well as to clarify beyond any doubt that modern drag queens are not always men.
Do you guys like this? It would be so nice if we could find a solution that everyone is truly happy with. Armadillopteryx talk 08:44, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
When people use "traditionally," they usually are not using it to state "this is how things are now."This may be where we diverge, since I most often hear traditionally referring precisely to "how things are", with emphasis on the fact that the present norm has been long-established by tradition. I think it is neither roundabout nor vague to provide that context. This makes me think we simply have different connotations of the word, though the dictionary definition is clear on its own (even listing typically as a synonym). Since traditionally can be interpreted with wide variation and somewhat divergent meanings, I agree it's a bad choice for the lead. Armadillopteryx talk 00:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I am also open to exploring other quantifiers than those that have already been discussed. One option I like would be to replace almost always
or usually
with most often
. This idea appeals to me because the language presents male drag queens as a
mathematical mode (i.e. the most common option/variety of drag queen—the value most often taken by "drag queen") without making unsourced insinuations about the absolute prevalence of males/non-males in the drag queen population. That is, I am also happy with:
A drag queen is a person, most often male, who uses drag clothing and makeup to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.
Do people like this option? Armadillopteryx talk 11:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person, most often male, who uses clothing and makeup to imitate and/or exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for amusement or entertainment.
This isn't just a "little ways behind" matter, such as the majority being 60% and the minority being 50%is speculation/OR unless sourced. I think we are probably all frustrated with the lack of published statistics on this subject, as that would make our decisions more clear-cut, for sure. There is no exhaustive census of the gender identities of drag queens (which would be virtually impossible to obtain anyway—it's not a well defined, tracked population like citizens of a country, and I can think of more than a few serious obstacles to obtaining a truly random, representative sample).
Even a statement like "This isn't just a 'little ways behind' matter, such as the majority being 60% and the minority being 50%" is speculation/OR unless sourced.Re: "but not vice versa" w/r/t "usually" and "almost always": I just meant that "almost always" is more specific than "usually". Like, the set of things that happen "almost always" is a proper subset of the set of things that happen "usually". "Usually" does not exclude any case describable by "almost always", but "almost always" excludes some cases describable "usually".
This discussion appears to have died out without a formal consensus being reached. There were a couple options that, to the best of my comprehension, had at least two supporters each (namely "usually" and "most often"). I can personally tolerate both of those (but not "almost always"). Would others care to state which options are presently tolerable to them? Armadillopteryx talk 04:47, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Recently a group of youths protested a DQST in Australia. The Twitter mob went baying for their blood, claiming usage of the term 'drag queen' was homophobic (most people didn't notice it was called drag queen story hour and just wanted to be outraged), calling them nazi's, hitler youth (which trended for two days in Australia) and tracked down all the kids involved, calling their friends, family, workplace. One of the kids killed himself, others are in hiding. I pointed out as a drag performer that they had every right to protest in a public library, it wasn't shut, or a special event, so it was open to them as members of the public and they have a democratic right to protest. I was hounded, my facebook suddenly filled with comments, my 80 year old mothers facebook filled with hateful comments. The backlash to peaceful public protests is worse than the backlash we got in the 70's for being openly gay, and far, far more hateful. This is a kind of hate I've never seen before. Virulent, fueled with self righteousness. The kind of hatred you see in religious nuts. It's terrifying. But someone needs to adjust the story time section to mention it's now in Australia and has taken its first life there too. I've noticed that the other suicides, the murder of one protestor, the molestation of children by Garcia etc are being intentionally left out of the DQST section - but this is dishonest and clearly POV by omission. Could an established editor who hasn't just faced 48 hours of their phone ringing off the hook telling them they're literal nazi's adjust this? I'm literally shaking too much from the abuse to try and string a coherent sentence together and am moving out of my dorm as the address has been given out publicly. All because I said hounding children to death was bad. :/ 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 09:03, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
I came to this discussion, b clicking the link 'In the early to mid-1900s, female impersonation had become tied to the LGBT community[dubious – discuss]' However, this discussion as above refers to a different issue, that I thought I would comment on too, so here are two things. I fully understand the experience of the person above, as this type of mob-minded attacking people has gotten ridiculous, which is one reason I no longer use social media - as a trans gender person who transitioned 20 years ago, I repeatedly got verbal abuse from newly transgender people, because they felt my use of long established terms (including medical terms like transsexual) was offensive. However, coming back to the wikipedia article reference, linked to this discussion. I would concur that the statement - drag became tied to LGBT in the early to mid-1900s - is inaccurate. Speaking for the UK, drag was tied to the gay scene in 1900s. There was no LGBT scene until post year 2000. At least as far as the UK goes, prior to 2000s, gay people neither acknowledged trans people, nor did they acknowledge bisexual people, so there was no LGBT community in 1900s, neither early, mid nor late, and hence drag was not tied to the non-existent LGBT community, rather it was tied to the gay community. Marcymarcymarcy ( talk) 10:55, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
How about mentioning the Drag Queen Story Hours held at libraries all around the United States in which drag queen read books promoting drag queens and LGBT to young children (maybe yours)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.67.75 ( talk) 03:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't know how more elaboration is possible. As for why this would be an improvement to the article, it helps make the article complete in it's informative nature, as the site intends. Here is a super reliable source- the program's own website: https://www.dragqueenstoryhour.org/. It may not be in "acceptable" press coverage because many people would no doubt be outraged by the program. Hey, how about this site that shows how much the program's people really care enough about children when it comes to making sure who they accept and send out as story readers: https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-public-library-admits-registered-child-sex-offender-read-to-kids-in-drag-queen-storytime/285-becf3a0d-56c5-4f3c-96df-add07bbd002a — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.67.75 ( talk) 22:16, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Mathglot has asked I respond to possible conflict of interest issues for adding photos to articles relating to Gillette, Wyoming. I don't work for the city, no one pays me to edit, and I gain nothing from it other than knowledge and experience. Also, I have no connection to the person in the photo or the groups that hosted the event. The only relationship I to the content I contribute to Wikipedia wether its written text, data, or photos is I created it. If that addresses all the COI concerns please restore the edit [1] Old revision of Drag queen. Mr. Satterly ( talk) 00:54, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
"Wow! Who knew?!" - It would be nice if the first sentence in the lead made sense. I've tried to fix it now. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 12:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
[p]ointing out that women wear women's clothingis what is actually happening in that sentence, though. The sentence defines a drag queen as a person who performs in women's clothing, with the added context that such performers as usually (but not exclusively) men. If we were discussing a sentence that literally read,
Women wear women's clothing, I would probably agree with you. I will respond further in the new section below. Armadillopteryx talk 03:31, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
... or only those that are performance artists? And who says so? Maybe someday we'll land with a lead that's accurate and acceptable. This is still a major problem. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 10:32, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
we must not write anything that in any way means that women wear women's clothing, no matter what the context, and no matter how roundaboutis an accurate reflection of the sentences I am proposing. Could you explain to me why this is your reading? I mean that with full respect and sincerity: I think you and I are reading the same exact sentences with very different interpretations, and I am having some trouble seeing where you are coming from.
women wear women's clothing, which has been a paraphrase you presented earlier. Perhaps the key is that I see an important semantic distinction between
Some drag queens are womenand
Women wear women's clothing, whereas you do not. Would that be an accurate statement?
Here is a nice article in Nylon that addresses the very question we're asking—i.e. how to define drag in the modern age—and also includes specific discussion of female drag queens. It offers these three definitions as examples:
Do you think any of those is a good place for us to begin or adapt our definition of "drag queen" in this article? I am partial to #2 myself. It adapts smoothly into something like A drag queen is a person/artist/performer who uses costume and makeup to exaggerate gender signifiers. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women.
Obviously we have to clean it up so that it's not such close paraphrasing, but this is just an idea to start.
Armadillopteryx
talk
02:28, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate traditionally female gender signifiers. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women for entertainment purposes.
SergeWoodzing, reverting my edit was petty, demonstrates ownership issues, and made the prose worse. And re-added an ugly citation needed flag in the opening sentence which is a red flag to all that writing needs help. Sobeit, I had improved the lead as such
Drag queens are performance artists who dress in women's clothing and often act with exaggerated femininity, and in feminine gender roles primarily to entertain. They often exaggerate make-up and their drag to dramatic, comedic or satirical effect. Drag queens are closely associated with gay men and gay culture, although queens can be of any gender and sexuality.
I hope other editors are treated better than I was. Gleeanon409 ( talk) 09:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate traditionally female gender signifiers. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women for entertainment purposes.This addresses your concern about the citation needed tag that we would all like to see removed. What do you think of this version? I am personally happy with it and would like to put it in the article. Armadillopteryx talk 21:47, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person using costuming and make-up to imitate, and often exaggerate, traditionally female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.Gleeanon409 ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.
A drag queen is a person who uses costuming and make-up to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes. Historically, most drag queens have been men dressing as women. In modern times, female drag is associated with gay men and gay culture, but people of other gender and sexual identities also perform as drag queens.
In modern times, drag queens are associated with gay men and gay culture, although queens can be of any gender and sexual identity.Until the entire article is overhauled and the lead expanded I see no reason not to explicitly state these facts upfront and in context. Gleeanon409 ( talk) 04:09, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
What I especially like about that smooth wording is the fact (as per my rather vast experience) that a drag queen always can be considered to be in the act of entertaining, usually others, but in any case h-self. Thanx again! -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 13:30, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
I've made some clarity edits to the whole lead, and there are a couple parts I think could benefit from some brainstorming:
Drag queens vary by type, culture, and dedication ..., but what on earth does that actually mean? Drag queens vary by "type", but nowhere is type of what specified. And what does it mean for a drag queen (as opposed to drag, i.e. as an art form) to vary by culture? I think this sentence could use some TLC (if not WP:TNT) :-D
venues such as cabarets and nightclubs. However, a cabaret is a type of show, not a venue, so I'm thinking something like this may be better:
Drag shows frequently include lip-syncing, live singing, and dancing. They occur at events like gay pride parades, drag pageants, and cabarets; these can be hosted outdoors or in venues such as nightclubs and theatres.
Thoughts? Armadillopteryx talk 02:32, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person, usually male, who uses drag clothing and makeup to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.We could possibly even scrap the second sentence altogether if we do this.
Exclusive of the question about performance, the wording almost always male seems uncontroversial. Even if it isn’t, it’s the stable version, and per WP:BRD should remain while this is being discussed. I’ve restored that wording. Mathglot ( talk) 02:52, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
almost alwaysmen suggests that the subset of queens who are non-male is smaller than it really is. Armadillopteryx talk 09:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
To me the main question for the lead is not if many women have acts that resemble/emulate/glorify/celebrate drag queens, which of course they do, but whether or not many women specifically are called "drag queens" (note, and I quote "drag queens" - end of quote). I have been asking for that speific question to be clearly addressed here, and unless it is, I will continue to be confused about that. If there are mainstream reliable sources that substantiate that women often are called (quote) "drag queens" they shoud be added to the article. If none exist, this discussion seems moot. We are just trying to define, in the opening of the aricle, what a (quote) "drag queen" actually is. Aren't we? -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 13:09, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Drag queens, otherwise known as 'female impersonators,' are most typically gay cisgender men (though there are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities) who perform and entertain on stage in nightclubs and bars.[26]
The art of drag is no longer exclusive to men. Drag is for everyone, including biological women. The tradition defining a drag queen as a man who dresses up in women's clothes, typically for the purposes of entertainment, is changing rapidly in Dallas.It later says,
While each performer may prefer a different title, there seems to be a consensus that, above all, female queens are drag queens.[27]
[T]here are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities. [34] But again, you respond as though your concern was not addressed. And this is in addition to the fact that this specific wording in a source seems to be your own personal criterion rather than an established or consensus-based one.
It's a lot to wade through for an interested person with limited time. If any of the added sources cleary and reliably state that "many" (many) women are known as (quote) "drag queens", I'd like that speficic source wording quoted here, please. To me it's a prerequisite for making the suggested change to the lead. As far as I know "almost always", statistically, is still correct, but I am open to change my mind depending on the sources. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
[T]here are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities. Your insistence on the exact phrase "many women are known as drag queens" is a little bewildering when a lot of the sourcing I have presented on this page states as much in different words. I think that demanding a specific line of text for a criterion that is personal to you is neither reasonable nor productive. I would like to respectfully suggest that if you are so adamant about the phrase "almost always male", the onus is on you to provide sourcing for such. I've provided lots of sourcing to the contrary, some of which is now in the article per your request.
While each performer may prefer a different title, there seems to be a consensus that, above all, female queens are drag queens.Would that be helpful? Armadillopteryx talk 20:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I've made
an edit to the article body to incorporate some of what has been discussed on this talk page. How does this look to those interested, and do we feel it's reasonable to change almost always male
to usually male
in the lead now? I'd like to note that the longstanding, stable definition of drag king in this article states that those performers are usually women
, not almost always women
. I made some clarity/grammar edits to the whole paragraph, including that section, but I did not change that specific wording (see
previous version of page).
Armadillopteryx
talk
09:00, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Though I am prepared to continue the almost always vs. usually debate if necessary, I've just had an idea that may be more appealing to everyone:
A drag queen is a person, traditionally male, who uses drag clothing and makeup to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.
I like this somewhat better than usually male and (obviously) a lot better than almost always male. The word traditionally gives a nod to the fact that most historically recorded drag queens have been men and also carries the implication that this is presently the most common case, crucially, without making any explicit insinuations as to the prevalence of male and non-male queens.
There is already sourcing in the article to support the historical implication of traditionally as well as to clarify beyond any doubt that modern drag queens are not always men.
Do you guys like this? It would be so nice if we could find a solution that everyone is truly happy with. Armadillopteryx talk 08:44, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
When people use "traditionally," they usually are not using it to state "this is how things are now."This may be where we diverge, since I most often hear traditionally referring precisely to "how things are", with emphasis on the fact that the present norm has been long-established by tradition. I think it is neither roundabout nor vague to provide that context. This makes me think we simply have different connotations of the word, though the dictionary definition is clear on its own (even listing typically as a synonym). Since traditionally can be interpreted with wide variation and somewhat divergent meanings, I agree it's a bad choice for the lead. Armadillopteryx talk 00:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I am also open to exploring other quantifiers than those that have already been discussed. One option I like would be to replace almost always
or usually
with most often
. This idea appeals to me because the language presents male drag queens as a
mathematical mode (i.e. the most common option/variety of drag queen—the value most often taken by "drag queen") without making unsourced insinuations about the absolute prevalence of males/non-males in the drag queen population. That is, I am also happy with:
A drag queen is a person, most often male, who uses drag clothing and makeup to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes.
Do people like this option? Armadillopteryx talk 11:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
A drag queen is a person, most often male, who uses clothing and makeup to imitate and/or exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for amusement or entertainment.
This isn't just a "little ways behind" matter, such as the majority being 60% and the minority being 50%is speculation/OR unless sourced. I think we are probably all frustrated with the lack of published statistics on this subject, as that would make our decisions more clear-cut, for sure. There is no exhaustive census of the gender identities of drag queens (which would be virtually impossible to obtain anyway—it's not a well defined, tracked population like citizens of a country, and I can think of more than a few serious obstacles to obtaining a truly random, representative sample).
Even a statement like "This isn't just a 'little ways behind' matter, such as the majority being 60% and the minority being 50%" is speculation/OR unless sourced.Re: "but not vice versa" w/r/t "usually" and "almost always": I just meant that "almost always" is more specific than "usually". Like, the set of things that happen "almost always" is a proper subset of the set of things that happen "usually". "Usually" does not exclude any case describable by "almost always", but "almost always" excludes some cases describable "usually".
This discussion appears to have died out without a formal consensus being reached. There were a couple options that, to the best of my comprehension, had at least two supporters each (namely "usually" and "most often"). I can personally tolerate both of those (but not "almost always"). Would others care to state which options are presently tolerable to them? Armadillopteryx talk 04:47, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Recently a group of youths protested a DQST in Australia. The Twitter mob went baying for their blood, claiming usage of the term 'drag queen' was homophobic (most people didn't notice it was called drag queen story hour and just wanted to be outraged), calling them nazi's, hitler youth (which trended for two days in Australia) and tracked down all the kids involved, calling their friends, family, workplace. One of the kids killed himself, others are in hiding. I pointed out as a drag performer that they had every right to protest in a public library, it wasn't shut, or a special event, so it was open to them as members of the public and they have a democratic right to protest. I was hounded, my facebook suddenly filled with comments, my 80 year old mothers facebook filled with hateful comments. The backlash to peaceful public protests is worse than the backlash we got in the 70's for being openly gay, and far, far more hateful. This is a kind of hate I've never seen before. Virulent, fueled with self righteousness. The kind of hatred you see in religious nuts. It's terrifying. But someone needs to adjust the story time section to mention it's now in Australia and has taken its first life there too. I've noticed that the other suicides, the murder of one protestor, the molestation of children by Garcia etc are being intentionally left out of the DQST section - but this is dishonest and clearly POV by omission. Could an established editor who hasn't just faced 48 hours of their phone ringing off the hook telling them they're literal nazi's adjust this? I'm literally shaking too much from the abuse to try and string a coherent sentence together and am moving out of my dorm as the address has been given out publicly. All because I said hounding children to death was bad. :/ 121.210.33.50 ( talk) 09:03, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
I came to this discussion, b clicking the link 'In the early to mid-1900s, female impersonation had become tied to the LGBT community[dubious – discuss]' However, this discussion as above refers to a different issue, that I thought I would comment on too, so here are two things. I fully understand the experience of the person above, as this type of mob-minded attacking people has gotten ridiculous, which is one reason I no longer use social media - as a trans gender person who transitioned 20 years ago, I repeatedly got verbal abuse from newly transgender people, because they felt my use of long established terms (including medical terms like transsexual) was offensive. However, coming back to the wikipedia article reference, linked to this discussion. I would concur that the statement - drag became tied to LGBT in the early to mid-1900s - is inaccurate. Speaking for the UK, drag was tied to the gay scene in 1900s. There was no LGBT scene until post year 2000. At least as far as the UK goes, prior to 2000s, gay people neither acknowledged trans people, nor did they acknowledge bisexual people, so there was no LGBT community in 1900s, neither early, mid nor late, and hence drag was not tied to the non-existent LGBT community, rather it was tied to the gay community. Marcymarcymarcy ( talk) 10:55, 6 March 2020 (UTC)