This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
@
Noteduck:, your recent additions to the lead are not good BLP practice. The lead should be a summary of the article. Adding a long list of citations to the lead describing Murray as "alt-right" is bad practice. Instead, those source should be added to the body of the article, perhaps with a statement like, "Murray has been widely described as alt-right", followed by those citations (or just the 5 strongest, see
WP:OVERCITE). In the lead you would just say "he has been described as alt-right without citations since the body of the article would support that content in the lead. Note: I haven't reviewed the sources to see if they are of BLP standards but a quick skim suggests they are. At least some are not as the list includes Op-Eds and disputed sources.
Springee (
talk) 02:29, 2 January 2021 (UTC) Edit
Springee (
talk)
03:05, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Conan The Librarian, Noteduck, and Nomoskedasticity:, I think it's worth discussing the recently added/removed citations from the lead. Personally I don't see an issue with the attributed "Islamaphobic" statement in the lead. It seems to fit with some of the body content. I think Chetsford's pole below is trying to get at some of that. I would say my answer is D. Anyway, there is an issue with this content [ [1]]. First, as I said above if these sources only exist in the lead then there is a problem. With very few exceptions no content or citations should exist solely to support something in the lead. If it doesn't need to be in the article body then it shouldn't be in the lead either. I don't think that is too hard to fix since I suspect many of those sources would be useful in the body. Still, the content is disputed thus the problems should be corrected on the talk page rather than via back and forth editing. Also, just because a source is from an academic source does not mean it can't be removed. That just means we presume it is reliable. That doesn't mean it's DUE, isn't OR or that the edit isn't problematic in some other way. This edit has a number of issues. Going down the list of included sources
So in the end we have a 9000+ character edit that tries to pin the "far-right" label on Murray (which may be an appropriate label) but simply doesn't pass any sourcing muster needed to do the job. It's honestly just a mess. This might have been part of the issue Atsme was raising [ [2]] in response to Noteduck's BLP in inquiry. While my gut feeling is there are probably RSs that support the attributed alt-right label, this edit should be removed and started over. As is, it's basically unfixable. Springee ( talk) 05:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, there has been some back and forth with the citations in the lead as well as the other disputed content. Conan The Librarian removed a large number of your recent changes. I partially support that move. With respect to the body edits discussed/disputed in a previous section, there simply is no consensus that the sourcing is acceptable. That means per policy the edits should be reverted until consensus if established. As for the content in the lead, I've indicated a number of issues above. Again restoring an Op-Ed article to support a contentious claim is not acceptable. That doesn't mean the other sources couldn't be used. I would also note that "proximate" to the far-right is too vague a statement. If he is personally, widely considered "far-right" fine. Proximate is just too wishy-washy. Same with some of the other negative categorizations in the lead. Again, I get back to the best way to handle this is to come to an agreement on the body text then use the lead to summarize it. if we are putting this content in the lead first then we are doing it wrong. Springee ( talk) 13:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
The volume of discussion here is hard to follow but I agree with Springee that the longer version is a serious case of overcitation in the lead. The lead should summarise the body and if the body doesn't mention "alt-right" etc it shouldn't be in the lead, and leads should not have this level of footnoting in any case. However, I think many of the deleted refs are probably strong enough to include in the body and so moved theere rather than simply deleted. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Also, there seems to be a remarkable naivety about Murray and his views among editors here. As Pincrete has mentioned, it is the academic CONSENSUS that Murray has links to the extreme right, which is why the Tories distanced themselves from him in 2007! Please look at the quotes provided from some of the sources that have been added - it's very widely accepted that Murray gives a kind of socially acceptable face to the UK far right - which is why terms like "mainstreaming" and "entryism" [ie to the far right] are often used in association with Murray. The fact that Murray is a highly visible public intellectual but does not make these arguments any less valid. Conan the Librarian I've noticed with some of your edits you seem almost disbelieving that anyone could say such things about Murray - but these are the conclusions most serious scholars have come to when assessing his works. Noteduck ( talk) 00:36, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Given the extensive discussions on this page about the best ideological label to associate Murray with, I thought it would be good to add what Murray himself identifies as politically. Here is one source calling him a "self-described neoconservative":
In March 2018, Hungary’s authoritarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán posted a photo of himself to his official Facebook page holding up a book, titled “The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam”. The title is similar to Sarrazin’s Germany Does Away with Itself mentioned above. The author of The Strange Death of Europe is a self-described neoconservative British journalist, Douglas Murray.
Does anyone have any other sources in which Murray or others describe him as a "self-described neoconservative"? Or perhaps he sometimes gives himself a different ideological label? Noteduck ( talk) 04:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
A significant amount of new material and sources has been added to this page in December. Despite extensive referencing and a wealth of source material, much of this new material has been repeatedly deleted from the article. The sources that have been edited out of the article include:
Tags pertaining problems with this page have also been removed [13]. I believe that the only consistent factor in these deleted sources is that they are perceived as being unflattering to Murray, and that they do not accord with his self-identification as a mainstream conservative. It is the mainstream academic view that Murray's work can either be characterized as far-right or having far-right themes [14] and journalistic sources that echo this view should not be unjustly removed from the page. Noteduck ( talk) 03:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Springee, buidhe and myself have produced a wealth of evidence from academic and journalistic sources demonstrating Murray's ideological and personal links to figures acknowledged as far-right. Please indicate if you would object to any of the following, as I'd rather discuss it here than see my edits promptly removed on the main page
I believe all of these points merit inclusion in this article and that your previous deletion of new material was unwarranted Noteduck ( talk) 06:49, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Noteduck:, you have restored the disputed sources without showing consensus (please see WP:NOCON). On the Sludge RSN discussion Hemiauchenia questioned the reliability of the source for reasons similar to mine. Chetsford felt they may be reliable but DUE was still an unanswered question. I also raised the question of DUE above. MEE, one of the sources you used, is an Op-Ed column. Op-Eds are almost never seen as reliable for contentious material about a BLP subject. On the BLPN, Kyohyi agreed with me that the Bridge Initiative is self published since it isn't published via normal academic journals or press. Grayfell disagreed but that simply means we don't have a consensus. Again, buidhe has provided a long list of what appear to be good sources, why are you trying to use Op-Eds, self published and sources with limited reputation/weight? Springee ( talk) 02:47, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, when restoring this content [ [24]] you claim the multitude of issues, including using an Op-Ed to make controversial claims about a BLP subject have been addressed and thus have consensus. Can you tell me which editors support those claims? I'm seeing some mixed support but nothing that would appear to be a consensus. Springee ( talk) 05:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, please self revert this edit [ [25]]. Mcrt007 removed it on solid ground, that the lead is a summary of the body. I've said the same thing and support the removal as well. Springee ( talk) 02:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
There are paragraphs on The Strange Death of Europe and The Madness of Crowds that are somewhat awkwardly integrated into the "views" subheading of Murray's page. I believe they should be moved to the "publications" heading. Any disagreements?
Also, there is a mainstream view in academia (I would say a consensus) and a mainstream view in journalistic sources that Murray can be considered some combination of far-right, alt-right or Islamophobic. [27] [28] [29] [30] Accordingly, appropriate categories for Murray include those related to the far right and Islamophobia in the UK, eg [ [31]] [ [32]] [ [33]]
I realize that these claims are contested - PLEASE address the volume of evidence presented in footnotes 9, 10, 11 and 12 on the Douglas Murray page before rejecting these categorizations outright. "These sources sound biased/POV/etc" is not a weighty response. I am open to discussion about what categories Murray should be added to Noteduck ( talk) 08:47, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I want to untangle your contention here. Which of these are you arguing - or you arguing something else?
Which is it, or is the problem with Almond's review simply how critical it is of Murray? Noteduck ( talk) 03:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I note these extremely contentious claims are still up and more activist material being continuously added with aggressive edit notes. A reminder that these derogatory "far right" claims need overwhelming consensus before being published, not after. I propose they are taken down immediately until their discussion has some resolution. Conan The Librarian ( talk) 05:00, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Nomoskedasticity, CTL's removal was sound. First, CTL didn't remove any sources since the same list of sources was included in the newly added (yet still questionable) right wing associations section here [ [34]]. Second, this means you have restored a lot of poorly edited content. Even if one supports the material in the lead a wholesale restoration (vs fixing it) of badly edited material is something we all should avoid. That section was added as a horse to support the cart that had been already added to the lead. That is not how these things are supposed to work. Currently the far right section is still a mess that needs to be sorted out or split up and integrated into other parts of the article. The "proximal to the far-right" claim is very vague and as such probably shouldn't be in the lead of a BLP ( WP:DONOHARM). This and similar content has been opposed/removed by CTL, Shrike and myself. That means there isn't a consensus for it's inclusion. Given the many back and forths we are well into the phase of discuss first then add after consensus is established. Springee ( talk) 18:24, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, why are you restoring an OpEd article as a source for a contentious claim about a BLP?[
[35]]
Shrike rightly removed it per
WP:RSEDITORIAL, Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.
Per
WP:BLPPRIMARY a primary source can only be used in a BLP with extreme caution. Using a primary source to support a contentious/disparaging claim about the BLP is not acceptable on Wikipedia.
Springee (
talk)
21:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Springee you have a good grasp of relevant Wiki acronyms. I don't know what you mean by "primary sources" in this context, and other editors have raised problems with your comprehension of this term on your talk page (as have I, though you deleted my material). On whether the Nafeez Ahmed source belongs on the page, let's have a look at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources page. On the subject of material from opinion pages:
When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.[notes 2] If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact.
The source is not being treated as authoritative - it's not being said in Wiki's voice - and Nafeez Ahmed is a renowned expert on Islam and politics (read the credentials on his website). [36] When you refer to Ahmed's claim about Murray embodying "entryism for the far right" as "disparaging", you are betraying your bias. This is not an "extraordinary claim" but rather encapsulates the mainstream scholarly understanding of Murray's views. As Buidhe pointed out on the Wiki sources reliability noticeboard [37] "far-right entryism" is a good summary of what almost all academic sources say about Murray. Please refrain from deleting this source without justification Noteduck ( talk) 23:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Which, if any, most closely reflect your opinion(s) based on available
WP:RS? Please select all that apply, or describe your thoughts if none apply.
"The Bridge Initiative is a multi-year research project on Islamophobia housed in Georgetown University. The Bridge Initiative aims to disseminate original and accessible research, offers engaging analysis and commentary on contemporary issues, and hosts a wide repository of educational resources to inform the general public about Islamophobia." [38]
I have put in the body that " Murray has been extensively profiled by Georgetown University's Bridge Initiative, which aims to document examples of Islamophobia." [39] But yes, you're right that Bridge does not explicitly call Murray an "Islamophobe" at any point. I can find some sources which explicitly call Murray Islamophobic [40] [41] or note that activists have addressed him as such [42]. I checked each of these sources and each of them seems to have editorship as well as authorship and no obvious RS red flags. That said, if you think the "Islamophobe" designation doesn't belong in the lead at all let me know Noteduck ( talk) 04:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Important Islamophobic intellectuals are, among others, Melanie Phillips, Niall Ferguson, Oriana Fallaci (d. 2006), Diana West, Christopher Hitchens (d. 2011), Paul Berman, Frank Gaffney, Nick Cohen, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Douglas Murray (Kundnani 2012b, 2008; Carr 2006; Gardell 2010).
— Mattias Ekman (2015) Online Islamophobia and the politics of fear: manufacturing the green scare, Ethnic and Racial Studies, 38:11, 1986-2002, DOI: 10.1080/01419870.2015.1021264
In addition, in Busher’s (2015) ethnographic study of EDL activism in the South East, he confirms that – while EDL activists’ ideological sources were largely drawn from ‘esoteric [Counter-Jihad] authors’ – they also ‘extended well beyond this niche’ to include mainstream ‘Islamophobes’ such as Douglas Murray and prominent New Atheists Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins (p. 84), whose characterisation of the Muslim faith as ‘evil’ or ‘mad’ adds grist to the group's Islamophobic cause.
— William Allchorn (2019) Beyond Islamophobia? The role of Englishness and English national identity within English Defence League discourse and politics, National Identities, 21:5, 527-539, DOI: 10.1080/14608944.2018.1531840
Additionally, I think a footnote citing to the Bridge Initiative should be added next to these sources with an adjoining note "Georgetown University's Bridge Initiative, an academic project aimed at documenting Islamophobia, has extensively profiled Murray's views" Noteduck ( talk) 05:31, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The wall of text stuff seems to be present in the article as well, regardless of who's responsible. There is far, far too much "detail" on the Islamophobic and absurd far right accusations. I've removed some of it but the whole article needs a clean up with a succinct summary of Murray's critique of Islam, not the meandering war of words present at the moment, especially the nonsense about him being far-right. Conan The Librarian ( talk) 14:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Anyone who thinks "the sources don't justify it" evidently has a severe allergy to the idea of making an effort. To assist, here are two google scholar searches that produce a wealth of material to work with:
FFS, he is discussed in The Routledge International Handbook of Islamophobia. [45]. The sort of anti-expert commentary we are seeing above in this section shows a real weak spot of Wikipedia in dealing with "controversial" topics. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 13:47, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Quite a few editors have deleted material from the lead related to controversies involving Murray, in particular the mainstream academic view of Murray that his views are linked to the far-right, Islamophobia, conspiracy theories and so on. A few pointers from the MOS:LEAD policy:
The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.
All but the shortest articles should start with introductory text (the "lead"), which establishes significance, includes mention of significant criticism or controversies, and make readers want to learn more.
Reliably sourced material about encyclopedically relevant controversies is neither suppressed in the lead nor allowed to overwhelm; the lead must correctly summarize the article as a whole.
At present, there is a single (long) sentence referring to controversies around Murray's controversial views based on more than a dozen academic sources - hardly undue or overkill. Nobody who has reverted the material from the lead has cited MOS:LEAD or challenged any of these sources. I call upon the editors who have made repeated, wholesale reverts of material from the header to be more mindful of Wiki policy when editing this page Noteduck ( talk) 23:36, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
@
Noteduck:, your recent additions to the lead are not good BLP practice. The lead should be a summary of the article. Adding a long list of citations to the lead describing Murray as "alt-right" is bad practice. Instead, those source should be added to the body of the article, perhaps with a statement like, "Murray has been widely described as alt-right", followed by those citations (or just the 5 strongest, see
WP:OVERCITE). In the lead you would just say "he has been described as alt-right without citations since the body of the article would support that content in the lead. Note: I haven't reviewed the sources to see if they are of BLP standards but a quick skim suggests they are. At least some are not as the list includes Op-Eds and disputed sources.
Springee (
talk) 02:29, 2 January 2021 (UTC) Edit
Springee (
talk)
03:05, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Conan The Librarian, Noteduck, and Nomoskedasticity:, I think it's worth discussing the recently added/removed citations from the lead. Personally I don't see an issue with the attributed "Islamaphobic" statement in the lead. It seems to fit with some of the body content. I think Chetsford's pole below is trying to get at some of that. I would say my answer is D. Anyway, there is an issue with this content [ [1]]. First, as I said above if these sources only exist in the lead then there is a problem. With very few exceptions no content or citations should exist solely to support something in the lead. If it doesn't need to be in the article body then it shouldn't be in the lead either. I don't think that is too hard to fix since I suspect many of those sources would be useful in the body. Still, the content is disputed thus the problems should be corrected on the talk page rather than via back and forth editing. Also, just because a source is from an academic source does not mean it can't be removed. That just means we presume it is reliable. That doesn't mean it's DUE, isn't OR or that the edit isn't problematic in some other way. This edit has a number of issues. Going down the list of included sources
So in the end we have a 9000+ character edit that tries to pin the "far-right" label on Murray (which may be an appropriate label) but simply doesn't pass any sourcing muster needed to do the job. It's honestly just a mess. This might have been part of the issue Atsme was raising [ [2]] in response to Noteduck's BLP in inquiry. While my gut feeling is there are probably RSs that support the attributed alt-right label, this edit should be removed and started over. As is, it's basically unfixable. Springee ( talk) 05:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, there has been some back and forth with the citations in the lead as well as the other disputed content. Conan The Librarian removed a large number of your recent changes. I partially support that move. With respect to the body edits discussed/disputed in a previous section, there simply is no consensus that the sourcing is acceptable. That means per policy the edits should be reverted until consensus if established. As for the content in the lead, I've indicated a number of issues above. Again restoring an Op-Ed article to support a contentious claim is not acceptable. That doesn't mean the other sources couldn't be used. I would also note that "proximate" to the far-right is too vague a statement. If he is personally, widely considered "far-right" fine. Proximate is just too wishy-washy. Same with some of the other negative categorizations in the lead. Again, I get back to the best way to handle this is to come to an agreement on the body text then use the lead to summarize it. if we are putting this content in the lead first then we are doing it wrong. Springee ( talk) 13:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
The volume of discussion here is hard to follow but I agree with Springee that the longer version is a serious case of overcitation in the lead. The lead should summarise the body and if the body doesn't mention "alt-right" etc it shouldn't be in the lead, and leads should not have this level of footnoting in any case. However, I think many of the deleted refs are probably strong enough to include in the body and so moved theere rather than simply deleted. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Also, there seems to be a remarkable naivety about Murray and his views among editors here. As Pincrete has mentioned, it is the academic CONSENSUS that Murray has links to the extreme right, which is why the Tories distanced themselves from him in 2007! Please look at the quotes provided from some of the sources that have been added - it's very widely accepted that Murray gives a kind of socially acceptable face to the UK far right - which is why terms like "mainstreaming" and "entryism" [ie to the far right] are often used in association with Murray. The fact that Murray is a highly visible public intellectual but does not make these arguments any less valid. Conan the Librarian I've noticed with some of your edits you seem almost disbelieving that anyone could say such things about Murray - but these are the conclusions most serious scholars have come to when assessing his works. Noteduck ( talk) 00:36, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Given the extensive discussions on this page about the best ideological label to associate Murray with, I thought it would be good to add what Murray himself identifies as politically. Here is one source calling him a "self-described neoconservative":
In March 2018, Hungary’s authoritarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán posted a photo of himself to his official Facebook page holding up a book, titled “The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam”. The title is similar to Sarrazin’s Germany Does Away with Itself mentioned above. The author of The Strange Death of Europe is a self-described neoconservative British journalist, Douglas Murray.
Does anyone have any other sources in which Murray or others describe him as a "self-described neoconservative"? Or perhaps he sometimes gives himself a different ideological label? Noteduck ( talk) 04:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
A significant amount of new material and sources has been added to this page in December. Despite extensive referencing and a wealth of source material, much of this new material has been repeatedly deleted from the article. The sources that have been edited out of the article include:
Tags pertaining problems with this page have also been removed [13]. I believe that the only consistent factor in these deleted sources is that they are perceived as being unflattering to Murray, and that they do not accord with his self-identification as a mainstream conservative. It is the mainstream academic view that Murray's work can either be characterized as far-right or having far-right themes [14] and journalistic sources that echo this view should not be unjustly removed from the page. Noteduck ( talk) 03:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Springee, buidhe and myself have produced a wealth of evidence from academic and journalistic sources demonstrating Murray's ideological and personal links to figures acknowledged as far-right. Please indicate if you would object to any of the following, as I'd rather discuss it here than see my edits promptly removed on the main page
I believe all of these points merit inclusion in this article and that your previous deletion of new material was unwarranted Noteduck ( talk) 06:49, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Noteduck:, you have restored the disputed sources without showing consensus (please see WP:NOCON). On the Sludge RSN discussion Hemiauchenia questioned the reliability of the source for reasons similar to mine. Chetsford felt they may be reliable but DUE was still an unanswered question. I also raised the question of DUE above. MEE, one of the sources you used, is an Op-Ed column. Op-Eds are almost never seen as reliable for contentious material about a BLP subject. On the BLPN, Kyohyi agreed with me that the Bridge Initiative is self published since it isn't published via normal academic journals or press. Grayfell disagreed but that simply means we don't have a consensus. Again, buidhe has provided a long list of what appear to be good sources, why are you trying to use Op-Eds, self published and sources with limited reputation/weight? Springee ( talk) 02:47, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, when restoring this content [ [24]] you claim the multitude of issues, including using an Op-Ed to make controversial claims about a BLP subject have been addressed and thus have consensus. Can you tell me which editors support those claims? I'm seeing some mixed support but nothing that would appear to be a consensus. Springee ( talk) 05:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, please self revert this edit [ [25]]. Mcrt007 removed it on solid ground, that the lead is a summary of the body. I've said the same thing and support the removal as well. Springee ( talk) 02:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
There are paragraphs on The Strange Death of Europe and The Madness of Crowds that are somewhat awkwardly integrated into the "views" subheading of Murray's page. I believe they should be moved to the "publications" heading. Any disagreements?
Also, there is a mainstream view in academia (I would say a consensus) and a mainstream view in journalistic sources that Murray can be considered some combination of far-right, alt-right or Islamophobic. [27] [28] [29] [30] Accordingly, appropriate categories for Murray include those related to the far right and Islamophobia in the UK, eg [ [31]] [ [32]] [ [33]]
I realize that these claims are contested - PLEASE address the volume of evidence presented in footnotes 9, 10, 11 and 12 on the Douglas Murray page before rejecting these categorizations outright. "These sources sound biased/POV/etc" is not a weighty response. I am open to discussion about what categories Murray should be added to Noteduck ( talk) 08:47, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I want to untangle your contention here. Which of these are you arguing - or you arguing something else?
Which is it, or is the problem with Almond's review simply how critical it is of Murray? Noteduck ( talk) 03:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I note these extremely contentious claims are still up and more activist material being continuously added with aggressive edit notes. A reminder that these derogatory "far right" claims need overwhelming consensus before being published, not after. I propose they are taken down immediately until their discussion has some resolution. Conan The Librarian ( talk) 05:00, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Nomoskedasticity, CTL's removal was sound. First, CTL didn't remove any sources since the same list of sources was included in the newly added (yet still questionable) right wing associations section here [ [34]]. Second, this means you have restored a lot of poorly edited content. Even if one supports the material in the lead a wholesale restoration (vs fixing it) of badly edited material is something we all should avoid. That section was added as a horse to support the cart that had been already added to the lead. That is not how these things are supposed to work. Currently the far right section is still a mess that needs to be sorted out or split up and integrated into other parts of the article. The "proximal to the far-right" claim is very vague and as such probably shouldn't be in the lead of a BLP ( WP:DONOHARM). This and similar content has been opposed/removed by CTL, Shrike and myself. That means there isn't a consensus for it's inclusion. Given the many back and forths we are well into the phase of discuss first then add after consensus is established. Springee ( talk) 18:24, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Noteduck, why are you restoring an OpEd article as a source for a contentious claim about a BLP?[
[35]]
Shrike rightly removed it per
WP:RSEDITORIAL, Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.
Per
WP:BLPPRIMARY a primary source can only be used in a BLP with extreme caution. Using a primary source to support a contentious/disparaging claim about the BLP is not acceptable on Wikipedia.
Springee (
talk)
21:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Springee you have a good grasp of relevant Wiki acronyms. I don't know what you mean by "primary sources" in this context, and other editors have raised problems with your comprehension of this term on your talk page (as have I, though you deleted my material). On whether the Nafeez Ahmed source belongs on the page, let's have a look at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources page. On the subject of material from opinion pages:
When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.[notes 2] If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact.
The source is not being treated as authoritative - it's not being said in Wiki's voice - and Nafeez Ahmed is a renowned expert on Islam and politics (read the credentials on his website). [36] When you refer to Ahmed's claim about Murray embodying "entryism for the far right" as "disparaging", you are betraying your bias. This is not an "extraordinary claim" but rather encapsulates the mainstream scholarly understanding of Murray's views. As Buidhe pointed out on the Wiki sources reliability noticeboard [37] "far-right entryism" is a good summary of what almost all academic sources say about Murray. Please refrain from deleting this source without justification Noteduck ( talk) 23:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Which, if any, most closely reflect your opinion(s) based on available
WP:RS? Please select all that apply, or describe your thoughts if none apply.
"The Bridge Initiative is a multi-year research project on Islamophobia housed in Georgetown University. The Bridge Initiative aims to disseminate original and accessible research, offers engaging analysis and commentary on contemporary issues, and hosts a wide repository of educational resources to inform the general public about Islamophobia." [38]
I have put in the body that " Murray has been extensively profiled by Georgetown University's Bridge Initiative, which aims to document examples of Islamophobia." [39] But yes, you're right that Bridge does not explicitly call Murray an "Islamophobe" at any point. I can find some sources which explicitly call Murray Islamophobic [40] [41] or note that activists have addressed him as such [42]. I checked each of these sources and each of them seems to have editorship as well as authorship and no obvious RS red flags. That said, if you think the "Islamophobe" designation doesn't belong in the lead at all let me know Noteduck ( talk) 04:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Important Islamophobic intellectuals are, among others, Melanie Phillips, Niall Ferguson, Oriana Fallaci (d. 2006), Diana West, Christopher Hitchens (d. 2011), Paul Berman, Frank Gaffney, Nick Cohen, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Douglas Murray (Kundnani 2012b, 2008; Carr 2006; Gardell 2010).
— Mattias Ekman (2015) Online Islamophobia and the politics of fear: manufacturing the green scare, Ethnic and Racial Studies, 38:11, 1986-2002, DOI: 10.1080/01419870.2015.1021264
In addition, in Busher’s (2015) ethnographic study of EDL activism in the South East, he confirms that – while EDL activists’ ideological sources were largely drawn from ‘esoteric [Counter-Jihad] authors’ – they also ‘extended well beyond this niche’ to include mainstream ‘Islamophobes’ such as Douglas Murray and prominent New Atheists Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins (p. 84), whose characterisation of the Muslim faith as ‘evil’ or ‘mad’ adds grist to the group's Islamophobic cause.
— William Allchorn (2019) Beyond Islamophobia? The role of Englishness and English national identity within English Defence League discourse and politics, National Identities, 21:5, 527-539, DOI: 10.1080/14608944.2018.1531840
Additionally, I think a footnote citing to the Bridge Initiative should be added next to these sources with an adjoining note "Georgetown University's Bridge Initiative, an academic project aimed at documenting Islamophobia, has extensively profiled Murray's views" Noteduck ( talk) 05:31, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The wall of text stuff seems to be present in the article as well, regardless of who's responsible. There is far, far too much "detail" on the Islamophobic and absurd far right accusations. I've removed some of it but the whole article needs a clean up with a succinct summary of Murray's critique of Islam, not the meandering war of words present at the moment, especially the nonsense about him being far-right. Conan The Librarian ( talk) 14:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Anyone who thinks "the sources don't justify it" evidently has a severe allergy to the idea of making an effort. To assist, here are two google scholar searches that produce a wealth of material to work with:
FFS, he is discussed in The Routledge International Handbook of Islamophobia. [45]. The sort of anti-expert commentary we are seeing above in this section shows a real weak spot of Wikipedia in dealing with "controversial" topics. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 13:47, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Quite a few editors have deleted material from the lead related to controversies involving Murray, in particular the mainstream academic view of Murray that his views are linked to the far-right, Islamophobia, conspiracy theories and so on. A few pointers from the MOS:LEAD policy:
The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.
All but the shortest articles should start with introductory text (the "lead"), which establishes significance, includes mention of significant criticism or controversies, and make readers want to learn more.
Reliably sourced material about encyclopedically relevant controversies is neither suppressed in the lead nor allowed to overwhelm; the lead must correctly summarize the article as a whole.
At present, there is a single (long) sentence referring to controversies around Murray's controversial views based on more than a dozen academic sources - hardly undue or overkill. Nobody who has reverted the material from the lead has cited MOS:LEAD or challenged any of these sources. I call upon the editors who have made repeated, wholesale reverts of material from the header to be more mindful of Wiki policy when editing this page Noteduck ( talk) 23:36, 6 February 2021 (UTC)