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"Since his brother Arthur MacArthur III was deceased at this point and had failed to give that name to his own son (naming him instead Douglas MacArthur II), MacArthur "laid claim"[8] to the name for his son, thus Arthur MacArthur IV"
This isn't exactly correct. His brother Arthur III had five children, Arthur, Bowman, Douglas, Mary Elizabeth, and Malcolm. However, Arthur (son of Arthur) died at a young age. Schmead21 ( talk) 04:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Paul Ham, an Aussie journalist, has written a book called "Kokoda". He has been incredibly critical of both Blamey and MacArthur. MacArthur because he was an armchair commander, issuing ridiculous, unreasonable and, quite frankly criminal orders to Australian troops. Not only this, but he was dismissive of the Australian army in general, he only went over to PNG once - and even then never saw the conditions the men were fighting in - he insisted on advancing when it was not possible, from what I understand he was one of the reasons why they never employed planes to fly out dreadfully wounded men, and he manipulated the media in Australia and in America to make out it was he who was commanding the fighters on the front line.
If it wasn't for Austraila's gallant few (the Australian militia and the 2nd AIF) who held back the advancing enemy time and time again sometimes outnumbered by a much as 6 to 1 and never giving an inch, Macarthur's true incompetence all throughout the Kokoda campaign would've been very evident, most likely resulting in the invasion of Australia. Instead Macarthur's good understanding of how to handle (some would argue manipulate)the media and make himself look very responsible for the victory of the Battle of Kokoda overshone the selfless acts of the diggers and the Fuzzy Wuzzy angles once again denying them of their rightful title as competent soldiers good men and victors.
Some time earlier in the Kokoda campaign, Macarthur added to this saying that the (australians) were an inferior fighting force and were not equal to their enemies. when in fact the opposite was true.
All in all, not a nice individual and I'm amazed that PNG wasn't successfully invaded by the Japanese (though they had their own incompetent leadership). - Ta bu shi da yu 08:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Far from "never giving an inch", the diggers retreated all the way from Buna back to Imita Ridge. They were defeated by the Japanese at every turn. Kokoda was a Australian defeat, not a victory. MacArthur was right to be concerned about the Australian performance, especially after Malaya. For a number of reasons, the Australian Army did not fight as well at Kokoda as it did in Malaya and West Timor.
The charge that MacArthur visited PNG only once is completely untrue. He was there for months on end in 1943 and 1944. His strategy was sound and subsequent events vindicated it. Higher leadership of the Australian Army was very good. The problem was that Australia had not built a balanced Army with the logistical wherewithal to fight a campaign.
Wounded men were flown out but they had to be taken to an airstrip. The loss of Kokoda meant that there was no airstrips on the track until you got back to Port Moresby. Hawkeye7 10:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Not sure what your references are Hawkeye, but all the ones I have, do not seem to mention that Kokoda was "a[n] Australian defeat" Fortunately for you and I, we still speak English due to their efforts. They obviously won at Kokoda, but it was slow due to the sheer numerical force presented by the Japanese. The Australian plan was to delay to a point where the Japanese could no longer sustain themselves and culminated. This occured and was followed by a swift counter-attack all the way to Buna. Could I recommend Peter Fitzsimons book "Kokoda" and "The Odd Couple - Blamey and MacArthur at War" by Jack Galaway.
You are right about MacArthurs presence in PNG although 'months' is also a little generous. Gallaway produces MacArthurs movements by day and states "MacArthur spent 60 days in New Guinea in 1942, but never went further north than Port Moresby. In 1943 he spent 65 days in New Guinea...[and] in 1944 ...28 days in the north..." What is true from a wide variety of reputable sources, MacArthur was not a great strategist, he instead was driven by his own ego. He lacked the integrity to speak the truth during a significant number of his communiques and was only ever interested in himself and his own development. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.168.254 ( talk) 03:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I have reviewed Galaway elsewhere and pronounced it garbage. Avoid it at all costs. Stick to the books written by historians (ie not Fitzsimmons). The best source on Australia's part in WWII is Gavin Long's "The Six Year's War", followed by Robertson's "Australia at War". For the campaigns in New Guinea, McCarthy's "South West Pacific", Dexter's "New Guinea Offensives" and Long's "Final Campaigns". For Blamey, read Horner; for MacArthur, read Clayton James. And yes, the battle of Kokoda was indeed a defeat. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 10:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
MacArthur was certainly the youngest general at the time of his promotion to brigadier general. But I was under the impression that the youngest army general in US history would have been 19 year old Gilbert Lafayette in 1778, or does the Continental Army not count? -- Bucky (unregistered user) 10:55 16 December 2005 (UTC)
The page says he made Brigadier General in 1918. If he was born in 1880, then he would have been 38, not 28 as the text states. Therefore will delete the statement that he was 28 when he made general. 144.139.175.228 02:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
There were several generals that were younger during the Civil War. Among those that come to mind are George Custer (mid-20s?) and Wesley Merritt (again mid-20s). Reportedly the youngest of all was the wonderfully named Galusha Pennypacker, who was (depending on who you talk to, either 19 or 20 when he was promoted to Brig. Gen. just after Fort Fisher in 1865. The youngest general of the World War II era (supposedly) was James Gavin, who was in his mid-30s when promoted to Brig. Gen. 68.190.212.114 02:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
MacArthur did not believe the Chinese would invade, but if they did he said our airpower would make the invasion expensive.
And aren't we all disappointed that we missed out on World War 3? Theamazingzeno ( talk) 01:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
MacArthur failed to understand conditions on the ground in Korea, and failed to anticipate that his rush to the Yalu River would put American divisions at risk in areas where airpower was tactically less useful. A more prudent general would not have split his command into such disparate pieces, spread them out, and failed to have adequate reconnaissance, communication, and military intelligence. MacArthur's incompetence was singularly responsible for the disastrous loss of life in that campaign.
IMHO PedEye1 ( talk) 00:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In the article, we have the following statement:
MacArthur's use of air power during the New Guinea campaign is considered by many historians as the first harnessing of air power to influence land warfare
This appears to be something of an over exaggeration as it makes it sound like MacArthur was the first person to think of using aricraft in a battlefield! Presumably Macarthur used planes in some novel way in this campaign but I have no idea as to what this might be. I'd suggest that we either find out what this is (with a reference) or simply remove the statement alltogether.
I didn't write that, but it would make much more sense if we added "strategically" or "from a strategic standpoint." 06:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Re his use of airpower in New Guinea, I'd call it a pioneer use of tactical airlift; "strategic" isn't the word I'd use. Trekphiler 02:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It was hardly the first major airlift. German Ju-52s carried Franco's army across the strait of Gibraltar, and the Germans had kept 80,000 troops in the Demyansk Pocket supplied by air in the winter of 41-42. Aircraft were certainly relevant to the New Guinea campaign, but I was under the impression that airpower in the South Pacific was most useful against the Japanese Navy.( TariqAlSuave 02:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC))
The section "Dismissal" contains a strong POV. From a "Search Inside" at Amazon, it seems that this POV is indeed adopted in the cited book by Halberstam (The Coldest Winter: America and the Korean War), but I couldn't find any appropriate quotes. The way it's currently phrased the POV is presented as fact. I suggest that this part should either be quoted as one view from Halberstam, or deleted. Perhaps someone who has access to the book could take this up? Joriki ( talk) 17:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to get involved in the POV issue. I'd like to point out that this section starts off "In April 1952..." but that MacArthur was removed in 1951. Could we agree to change this reference to "In April 1951..." without issues? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.197.225 ( talk) 03:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
According to the book, The Forgotten War: - Joint Chiefs requested permission to remove MacArthur 12 separate times beginning on the 1st day of the war and ending the day Truman finally concurred. The first was Ike's recommendation when he stopped by the Pentagon that first day.
- the day before the 2nd Chinese offensive (the 1st major Chinese offensive happened months before Chosin and stalled the allied advance for three days; MacArthur convinced Truman that was just volunteers), Gen O.P. Smith, USMC 1st Division, informed the Commandant that he had removed his men from under MacArthur's command and informed the US Army division commanders he would support any of them who chose to relieve MacArthur of command
- the day after the 2nd Chinese offensive, MacArthur ordered SAC to hit Chinese positions with the atomic bomb, informing the local SAC commander that he had authority from Truman to do so; the SAC commander refused without first obtaining confirmation from the Pentagon; yes, Virginia, there really was a Dr Strangelove
- our UN allies informed Truman they would pull out of Korea if MacArthur remained
- Ridgway, who arrived the day after the 2nd Chinese offensive, assumed immediate command of the theater. Technically, he reported to MacArthur, informing him of his decisions after the fact, but he took no orders from MacArthur
Bottom line: the "Truman dismissed MacArthur over policy" story was used to conceal how screwed up Mac had left things in Korea and, more importantly, that a rogue American general tried to launch an unauthorized nuclear war. We did not learn this until the retired US Army General who wrote the "Forgotten War" used the Freedom Of Information Act to get this data declassified. Badmac ( talk) 20:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Because of the size of the article I created Places named for Douglas MacArthur and Service summary of Douglas MacArthur. Places remains a section with a template direction to new article, most of the material moved was schools roads etc.. Service summary I added to the See Also section since it was a recapitulation of the sections of the main article. Awotter ( talk) 00:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I changed it to the Sov declaration; despite common U.S. opinion today, in Japan at the time, it seems, the Sov declaration was the bigger influence (since Japanese cities were being burned on a routine basis by then...). Anybody that wants to mention both, feel free; I'd very strongly discourage the (previous) emphasis on it being the Bomb alone. Trekphiler ( talk) 09:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The Soviets had declared war some considerable time previously. It was the "shock" factor of the bomb more than the destruction itself which "did the trick". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.1.17 ( talk) 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The Soviets declared war on Japan on 8 August 1945, effective 9 August - after the nuclear strike on Hiroshima on 6 August but before that on Nagasaki on 9 August. Japan offered to surrender on 10 August. Japanese historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa has written a whole book about this, Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan (Belknap Press, 2005)), an hour-by-hour examination of how and why the Japanese leadership decided to surrender, compiled from the Japanese documents. His conclusion is that it was the Soviet declaration of war and not the Hiroshima or Nagasaki bombings that led to the Japanese surrender. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 21:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Somebody apparently Rhinocerous Ranger has made hash of most of the references list. Someone who knows how, please fix. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alrees ( talk • contribs) 22:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I see this has been fixed by Eupator, Thanks Alrees ( talk) 20:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
From the "Dismissal" section:
MacArthur by this time had not been back to the United States for more than twenty years and suffered from paranoia, self-destructive impulses, and political aspirations, and he had visions of running against Truman in the 1952 elections.
The construction "... suffered from paranoia, self-destructive impulses, and political aspirations" suggests that we think political aspirations are something one "suffers from", like the aforementioned mental conditions. Also, in the context of this sentence, it is not clear whether the word "visions" refers to a visionary state (which would go with the context of mental conditions) or just reinforcing the "political aspirations". -- FOo ( talk) 10:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Surely his role as military governor of Japan (Supereme Commander of the Allied Powers) should be included in the info box? Cripipper ( talk) 08:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Those who insist upon giving the date of the attack on Pearl Harbor as Dec 8 based on Philippine local time should insert this technicality as a footnote. One of the objectives of these articles should be clarity. Remember that this article will be read by school children for whom WW2 is ancient history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RandomTool2 ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I find this:
"On the day of the attack on Pearl Harbor (December 8, 1941, in Manila), MacArthur was Allied commander in the Philippines."
to be confusing. The way it is worded might make people a) think the article is incorrect or b) actually believe the Pearl Harbor attack occurred on 8 December 1941 in Manila. Yes, I understand there was an attack on the Philippines hours later, and that local time would mean it was December 8, not 7. Can that be restated for clarity? I was going to but then found I wanted to rewrite that paragraph completely.
MicheleFloyd ( talk) 18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
MicheleFloyd, if you can find a way that's clear & doesn't invite constant reversion, I'll give you your own personal Barnstar, free gratis & for nothing, autographed by Elvis. Trekphiler ( talk) 01:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know what high school General MacArthur was an alumnus of? GO-PCHS-NJROTC ( talk) 01:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
That's nothing worth adding to this article. Dragonrider27 ( talk) 19:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Particularly seeing as it's already there. MacArthur went to West Texas Military Academy, now known as TMI — The Episcopal School of Texas in San Antonio. It's mentioned in Manchester's biography, amongst other places. He also revisited the school after the Second World War to make a speech, much as he did with West Point.
This page is heavily pov- see for example
"The speech was recorded, and even in MacArthur's old and faltering voice, it is still possible to hear the mesmerizing presence and towering ego which drove him throughout his career. His stirring final passage sounds like a voice from another age[...]"
213.246.191.57 ( talk) 09:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Somebody has removed both the POV dispute tag I placed on the main page and the rationale for it that I placed here on the talk page. As I said previously, (and was supported in this view by many other editors) the article has no balance and appears to have been hijacked by Macarthur hagiographers. I and others have tried to redress the imbalance before. However, the numerous referenced criticisms from reputable sources which several editors have posted have been repeatedly and systematically removed.
Life is too short to get into edit wars with those who appear to have infinite persistence, but it is reasonable to at least warn article readers that there is a significant difference of opinion on the veracity of this article. RichardH ( talk) 04:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
"largely responsible for the increased diversion of resources to the Pacific"? I wouldn't disagree, but it wasn't that simple (& I'd fix it if I had sources to hand...). There were two campaigns in PTO, his & Nimitz's, & FDR's inability to choose between them (or unwillingness, 'cause choosing Nimitz was liable to mean Dougie would be Stateside running for President before the ink was dry on the orders) put a strain on logistics & increased the number of LCs in-theatre. (It wasn't helped by slow unloading of shipping...) TREKphiler hit me ♠ 19:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, it was in front of me all along. here's the source for the phrase you quoted. At the very end of the text (before the footnotes) there's a synthesis that states MacArthur's and King's roles in pulling resources away from a Europe First goal. The reference system here works. ;^) Binksternet ( talk) 21:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
"Interestingly, the official record of the day's events by the Army Air Corps' command has been clearly altered, with numerous erasures and type-overs." Is that sourced? And is it more than a reflection of bad typing by an incompetent clerk? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 01:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
This language may be questionable... "As an anticipatory gesture in 1945, MacArthur had given his treasured Gold Castles engineers' insignia, a personal possession, to his chief engineer, Jack Sverdrup; and while MacArthur himself may have just faded away, these insignia continue to be worn by the Army's Chief of Engineers as a tradition." Anyone else have an opinion? 68.230.99.224 ( talk) 16:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
"Anticipatory" and "personal possession" are completely unnecessary. We ought to document the gift neutrally without trying to guess motivation. The whole "while MacArthur himself may have just faded away" should go. Binksternet ( talk) 17:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I believe the line while MacArthur himself may have just faded away was merely a reference to this quote "Old soldiers never die; they just fade away... And like the old soldier of that ballad, I now close my military career and just fade away — an old soldier who tried to do his duty as God gave him the light to see that duty. Good-bye." and was not making a judgment of McArthur or his influence. I believe it was an acceptable if unnecessary stylistic decision (that was probably missed by most people) on the original authors part. Zamp m ( talk) 02:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
There are several important issues on this article that you all should discuss further, especially as regards strategic disobedience and counteraction of brinkmanship; and a good start would be learning all the names of the letters, memorizing multiplication tables, and the primary colors for fingerpainting.
98.230.27.142 ( talk) 13:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
User:Trekphiler, be serious. I have no admiration for Douglas MacArthur, much less his contemptible and paranoia-fueled assault on the Bonus Army. This is a simple matter of policy and good writing. The sentence in question is:"It should be noted, however, that no supporting evidence for MacArthur's charges have ever surfaced." First, it is a clear example of words to avoid. Second, it is unverified and unsourced. Third, the next sentence cites a reliable source to prove the same point neutrally and effectively. When I said "unnecessary," I meant "unnecessary." A little good faith next time? Deltabeignet ( talk) 22:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
This is a question from a German Wikipedia-user. In the Geman Wikipedia Douglas MacArthur is referred to as the "most decorated soldier in the history of the US armed forces". Can we really use that description?
Douglas MacArthur got the highest Decoration (MoH) once, other Soldiers got it twice. And as far as I know, other soldiers got more Decorations (in numbers).
Is it appropriate to use this kind of description?
PS German Wikipedia does not make a difference between Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force and it does not refer to a specific period of time. It just says "most decorated soldier in the history of the US armed forces".-- 84.173.135.206 ( talk) 01:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.156.154 ( talk) 19:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This section has some NPOV and balancing issues that really need to be addressed. First, as is often the case with "Controversy" sections in general (and "Criticism" sections, which is really what this particular section is), it's completely weighted in favor of one point of view. There is nothing provided to balance out the critics or provide the alternative viewpoint. There are many sources that defend MacArthur against the charges made in this section, but they are entirely omitted. Instead, what we have is a one-sided treatment of the issue and a magnet for attacks. As such, it violates NPOV.
The second problem I have with this section is that it relies excessively upon one source -- namely, Max Hastings. There are 12 citations within this section and half of them (footnote 51 is a duplicate cite to Retribution) are to Hastings. This, IMO, is undue weight and, fairly or unfairly, could cause the reader to discount the section as better reflecting the attacks of one detractor rather than the synthesis of common and considered criticism. Some diversity is in order. MacArthur, as a polarizing figure, doesn't want for critics, so it shouldn't be that difficult to replace a couple of Hastings citations with cites to different sources.
Finally, I see several examples of a source's subjective opinion blatantly passed off as hard fact. This is especially common with the cites to Hastings. I've listed the most egregious examples below, with the portions I find offending in italics.
To sum up, this section suffers from three severe infirmities: (1) it's unbalanced, (2) it gives undue weight to a single source, and (3) it presents opinions and subjective assessments as matters of fact. The third malady is easily correctable, as I think rewrites along the lines of the examples I've given above adequately address the issue. I plan on making those revisions in the coming days, barring any objections. The other two are obviously more intensive tasks.- PassionoftheDamon ( talk) 04:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't even think this section is encyclopedic. The matters mentioned are drawn heavily from opinion skillfully presented like facts Thinkinggecko ( talk) 12:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I am removing the phrase "dereliction of duty". The reference for MacArthur's poor showing on December 8, 1941 being called "dereliction of duty" was supposed to be the Bartsch book. After a more thorough reading of the book, I see that Bartsch never uses this phrase on Mac; the only mention of it is on page 419 in regard to Colonel Harold George, chief of staff at V Interceptor Command, who sat on suspicious early radar contacts of the air attack and didn't forward them as required until far too late. The worst that MacArthur gets from Bartsch is that Mac didn't confer with Brereton early December 8, that Mac didn't attack Formosa immediately upon hearing of Pearl Harbor, and that Mac never responded appropriately to General Arnold's instruction to take defensive measures including dispersion of aircraft.
So... I don't know of any other expert author who has written specifically that MacArthur was derelict in his duties. Am I missing someone? Binksternet ( talk) 16:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Surely MacArthur is the most highly decorated US soldier of WW2. He has the MOH, 3 DSC and 7 Silver Stars. Places him ahead of Audie. Wallie ( talk) 14:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
This has to be pointed out. MacArthur is an extremely brave man according to the citiation. To resist the enemy under heavy fire and bmbardment takes great courage. The fact that he was an older man makes it all the more remarkable. Wallie ( talk) 15:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
that corncob pipe looks kinda photoshopped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.202.179 ( talk) 03:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
gosh darn it, that corncob pipe just looks so implausible to me.
But I guess I must defer to Oliphaunt. He is like a tiger of
the internet. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.183.202.150 (
talk)
15:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
The statement "He brought along many talented mid-career officers, including George C. Marshall, and Dwight D. Eisenhower" is debatable. Explicitly contrary to, and probably because of, Pershing's recommendations to put Marshall on the fast track MacArthur relegated him to the National Guard at one point. Eisenhower probably had his "rabbis" as a field grade, but one may need to strain to count MacArthur among them. Mct mht ( talk) 02:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the post nominal letters GCB, referring to his honorary status as Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath, from the introduction of this article as Mr. MacArthur was not closely associated with the United Kingdom in the sense required by the Manual of Style for biographies. The full style guidelines for the use of post nominal letters can be viewed here: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Post-nominal_initials. TrufflesTheLamb ( talk) 20:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_honor the CMH is award to those who "…conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States…"
My questions are:
1) At which part of the Battle for the Philippines did Dugout Doug ever risk his life?
2) At which point was he personally engaged in action against the Japanese?
Seems to me that his award of the CMH in 1942 was a complete travesty and totally at odds with the requirements of the award.
SDJ 2/28/08
In this article, it said that ..."General Charles T. Menoher once said that he was the "greatest fighting man" in the army." That enough sounds like more of a reason to atleast look at him as a possible candidate for the MOH. He only recieved it in the Battle of the Philippines because they needed to find a reason to award him. He earned it a lot earlier then when it was awarded to him. FHS 4/7/09 —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
97.107.66.16 (
talk)
18:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
ultimately, McArthur was awarded the Medal of Honor. One can debate the reason, but he did win it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.241.174 ( talk) 18:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by [s[Special:Contributions/75.142.211.19|75.142.211.19]] ( talk) 07:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
You do not "win" the Medal of Honor. You receive it. ( not even that, you are awarded the Medal of Honor.) Some would say that you are invested with the Medal.
68.100.161.83 15:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
He was "awarded" the medal for his defense during the Battle for the Philippines. Dragonrider27 ( talk) 20:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I find it interesting in this context that almost alone of Wikipedia articles on Medal of Honor winners, MacArthur's article does not contain the citation. Is that because the citation, when compared against available documentation, wouldn't pass the giggle test? Peter.zimmerman ( talk) 17:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What no mention of his firing on the WWI Veterans?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.49.193.178 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 7 July 2002.
Because that is Communist crap from the "bonus march" of 1932. In fact the only serious combat took place BEFORE the military took over. Some policemen and some bonus marchers had a fight (with casualties on both sides).
When MacArthur took over he managed to defeat the bonus marchers (some of whom were not WWI Veterans) without killing anyone. The Communists never forgave him for denying them their "martyrs" so they invented some.
Paul Marks.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.63.48.48 ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 31 May 2006.
Excuse me but could you please site some of your sources for this comment? As I believe them to be historically inaccurate and I just want to know your sources; since even the most mainstream American history book has the incident documented. Also I really don't think the people at Princeton Press(they publish a lot of classroom text books)are communists. Zeelog —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.164.37.128 ( talk) 14:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I question the changing of the spelling to "modern" Korean terms. If someone is going to want to know what MacArthur did at Inchon, they're not going to know to look at Incheon. Should we rename the movie "Fifty-five Days at Beijing"? -- Zoe
Is the general's name spelled Matthew B. Ridgway or Matthew B. Ridgeway? I've seen Ridgway used more often, although Ridgeway is how it is spelled on the NATO website.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ugen64 ( talk • contribs) 23:49, 10 October 2003.
I question the writing ability of the author of this article. "He was busying praying" while the invasion was occurring? ugen64 01:44, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
Why not cover other people's mistakes when possible to do so without dishonor? 金 15:25, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This seems relevant, but I don't know how to integrate it.
Unfortunately for General Douglas MacArthur, the codebreakers were able to read the communications of Spain's ambassador to Tokyo and other diplomats, who noted that in their discussions with the general, he made clear his secret hope for all-out war with China and Russia, including the use of nuclear weapons if necessary. In a rare instance of secret NSA intercepts playing a major part in US politics, once the messages were shown to President Truman, MacArthur's career abruptly ended. - http://www.nybooks.com/articles/23231 -- 198.45.18.20 ( talk) 13:43, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
The attempted crossing of the River Ourck by the 42nd Infantry (Rainbow) Division took place in late July, 1918.
Harry Truman was Battery Commander of D Battery, 129th ARtillery Regiment which was part of or attached to the 35th Infantry Regiment. Its first engagement was not until September, 1918. The 129th Artillery Regiment would not have had any role with the 42nd Infantry Division.
See Geoffrey Perret: Old Soldiers Never Die, 1996, NY, Random House. Also see the history of the 129th ARtillery Regiment on line.
However, in Manchester's book, there is the comment that Truman served briefly under MacArthur, but no explanation.
In McCullough's book on Truman, there is no reference to any contact between the 129th aand the 42nd. According to McCullough, the 129th did not move up to the front until August, and may not have been in any action until September, 1918.
141.157.88.215 ( talk) 15:08, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
This article is ridiculously one-side and reads almost like something from the general's press agent. His very clear failures are passed over. For example, there's no mention that
In addition, the article barely mentions how badly MacArthur misjudged the possibilty of Chinese intervention on behalf of North Korea, or how many consider the Chinese intervention to be the "worst debacle in American military history" (to quote Bradford A. Lee). And while the article goes into extensive depth about how MacArthur "made his greatest contribution to history in the next five and a half years" as leader of the American occupation of Japan, it doesn't mention that a great many of his most significant reforms (industrial deconcentration and dismantling the zaibatsus, developing a Japanese labor movement) were almost completely reversed following 1948, when George C. Marshall sent George Kennan to Japan to take over what was widely perceived (by the U.S. government, at least) to be MacArthur's ineffectual and counter-productive reconstruction efforts. (See Michael Schaller, The American Occupation of Japan (Oxford, 1985).)
Instead, this article reads like a partisan of MacArthur's abortive 1950s-era presidential campaign. Puleeze. He wasn't all that and a bag of potato chips. Epstein's Mother 23:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Schaller is a polemicist who is great at digging up facts to support biased half-truths and venomous lies, like David Irving only left-wing and apparently not against the law these days. Anything by him including on this page must be balanced by someone without an anti-MacArthur agenda.[ 03:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The article seems like a fair rundown of his life, and in some parts it is actually a bit more negative than positive. Nothing as biased against him as Schaller, but nothing particularly laudatory either. It mentions the major controversies without offering an opinion on them. It doesn't say anything such as "others commend his actions during the Korean War, believing them to have prevented a complete loss," but instead comes close to suggesting that it is a hard fact that his actions were wrong rather than noble. As if "everyone knows" that. Was there a poll taken recently? It also leaves out important things he did, for better or worse, on his own accord during that war. Other than that, the article looks fine.
As for MacArthur's abilities as a commander, the brilliance with which he planned and commanded invasions and major offensive operations was unrivaled by any military leader of the 20th Century with the possible exception of Erwin Rommel. In that category he is actually the most underrated general in history . However, his skills as a defensive strategist were faulty and compared to his awe-inspiring offensive strategies, often abysmal. His management of logistics usually wasn't the best either, but it wasn't as responsible for the Philippines fiasco as as it is often claimed to be. MacArthur's weaknesses were only part of the problem, FDR was the main one to blame for that. His "Europe First" policy made no sense from an American standpoint, and even before America was officially drawn into the war he was paying more attention to helping Britain than defending the Pacific. The only wise policy relating to military logistics ever enacted by FDR was his refusal to bomb the concentration camp traintracks. As a tactician MacArthur was always excellent even during his worst moments, because he still managed to inflict more casualties than the enemy expected. He lost fewer men during his entire World War II career than Eisenhower did in the Battle of Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge (seperately, not put together), but critcs always seem to single him out for accusations of losing too many men. As far as casualties ratios, his record is again one of the greatest in history. The so-called historians who attack his military abilities are politically motivated. They dislike him because he was politically controversial and took political matters into his own hands in ways that determined the course of the 20th Century. Whether he was a dangerous arch-criminal on par with Hitler or the only truly courageous American patriot of the 20th Century to hold such a high position of world-altering power, MacArthur siezed and impacted the course of history in a way that few other post-Napoleanic Western leaders did. It's understandably difficult to get an honest and fair evaluation of such a man's strengths and shortcomings as a military leader. George Marshall, someone who really was "not all that and a bag of potato chips" in the grand scheme of things was nowhere near as historically significant as MacArthur, a lobster criticizing a shark because the scraps taste a bit too fishy. 10:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Not really McArthur relevant, but I'd like to argue that FDR's policy made perfect sense from an American standpoint, both in the short term and longer term...
FDR was the main one to blame for that. His "Europe First" policy made no sense from an American standpoint
Actually, "Europe First" made perfect sense from a U.S. grand strategy standpoint. At first, the USSR, bearing the brunt of the land war in Europe against Nazi Germany, were intensely suspicious of the U.S./U.K. cutting a deal with Germany for peace on the European theater's Western Front; this indeed was the sentiment of much of the Nazi leadership, who after the fall of France and the Low Countries in 1940 repeatedly expressed a willingness to allow the U.K. to retain her Empire in exchange for a free hand on the Continent, particularly with regard to Eastern Europe. Rudolf Hess's Quixotic flight to England, deranged though it was, was with the intention of negotiating peace with Britain, an idea that was quite popular in Nazi circles at the time.
Stain frequently and bitterly complained to the West regarding the lack of a "second front". If the U.S.S.R. had collapsed in the early years after Barbarossa (1941 or 1942), which didn't seem at all impossible with the tremendous German gains in the first two years of that front, Germany would have gained almost unfettered, blockade-proof access to the oil fields of the Caucasus, the wheat fields of the Ukraine, and the other vast natural treasures of European Russia. Germany could have then relegated nearly all of their military resources to defense in the West, and through access to the sea through Scandinavia and the Baltic ports, they might have eventually developed a naval force sufficient to challenge the U.S. and the U.K. in the Atlantic. An Allied invasion of Europe would have been several orders of magnitude more costly and difficult with no Eastern front to divide the German land army.
Finally, they might have closed the Mediterranean and Suez, which Churchill later admitted would have made continuing U.K. prosecution of the war doubtful.
It was therefore critical to insure there was no Soviet collapse.
Later in the war, once it became clear that Nazi Germany would never conquer the U.S.S.R., and indeed the reverse was more likely, there was all the more pressure on the U.S./U.K. to get their land armies afoot on the continent, before much of Western Europe was overrun by the Red Army as they rolled back the Germans. It was absolutely critical to have Allied shoeleather on significant amounts of German soid, in order to participate in the shaping of the postwar continent. The Normandy invasions were barely in time to avoid total postwar Soviet control East of the Rhine.
Japan's war goals were far different than Germany's, although rooted in a similar quest for access to resources and empire. Japan did not pose a near-term threat to the continental U.S. Their conquest of Pacific islands was in order to make the Pacific, and in particular the Western Pacific, a Japanese lake, and to remove the ability of the U.S. and European empires the ability to project power to the Asian mainland. The Pacific islands themselves are of negligible value in terms of natural resources.
Japan already had conquered large areas of the Asian mainland, however their land army in Asia was heavily committed, and their conquests in Asia up until Pearl Harbor were not fully developed, requiring more infrastructure such as railways, in order to increase their striking distance further West into the Indian subcontinent.
Embeddedcynic ( talk) 08:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to address the original essay point by point:
I would also like to point out that MacArthur had no influence on the Korean peninsula before the war broke out..politically or logistically. Whatever his feelings or opinions, its doubtful he could have done little to anything. Delphicrates ( talk) 08:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I have been working on this article the last couple days trying to clear up some of the many many issues that it has and I need to get a second opinion on a couple things. Normally I would just charge ahead and do it but do to the very high visibility of this article I wanted to pose it here first. First, I do not believe this article, in its current state, is even up to B level. There are POV issues, citationn issues and its generally speaking just a mess. I want to downgrade this and then once I have fixed some of the issues then resubmit it for a B class review by another editor so I can get a fresh set of eyes on it. I am also planning on building on and cleaning up some of the parellel articles at the same time. Second, I want to structure the pages with his awards and honors into lists due to the volume of data (he has over 110 military awards alone) and build them up as lists working into the FLC process, unless someone has a problem with that. I am also planning on doing a peer review after I get it up to B class but if anyone has comments about the article, I would appreciate the insight and suggestions. I am also going to leave this comment on the article talk paheg as well. -- Kumioko ( talk) 05:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's some easy points I see missing:
Comment:
Hawkeye7 ( talk) 20:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd recommend the following:
{{
cite book}}
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help)The 3 volume Clayton is horrifically detailed (one volume alone for WWII) and Manchester treats the subject fairly from both sides. MacArthur's memoirs of course are required for this article. I think the best thing to do would be to stick with major publishing houses for use in this article. Of course we need more books than this but these are the ones I recall reading. -- Brad ( talk) 09:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
WorldCat has a listing of works that MacArthur authored. The link includes all audio, video and text but keep in mind that it's showing all versions. -- Brad ( talk) 12:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
A search at American Heritage Magazine turns up some interesting articles. Probably good for secondary sources. -- Brad ( talk) 14:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. Clayton James is the authoritative biography of MacArthur. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 06:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I was at the library today and picked up Perret, Geoffrey (1996), Old Soldiers Never Die: The Life and Legend of Douglas MacArthur, Random House, ISBN 0-679-42882-8 so I can use references from this book. I don't want to step on toes so perhaps assigning me a section to work on would prevent that. -- Brad ( talk) 21:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Just some preliminary thoughts on spin off articles. Service summary of Douglas MacArthur should probably be renamed and utilized for Military career of Douglas MacArthur. Criticism of Douglas MacArthur is likely going to be needed as well. -- Brad ( talk) 13:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
The World War I section was brief, but terribly riddled with errors. Consider the original version:
Aarrghh. We're going to have to check everything carefully. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 11:14, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
In the Veracruz section, the "they"s & "them"s are a bit convoluted & it's not really clear who is who. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 00:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
"Since his brother Arthur MacArthur III was deceased at this point and had failed to give that name to his own son (naming him instead Douglas MacArthur II), MacArthur "laid claim"[8] to the name for his son, thus Arthur MacArthur IV"
This isn't exactly correct. His brother Arthur III had five children, Arthur, Bowman, Douglas, Mary Elizabeth, and Malcolm. However, Arthur (son of Arthur) died at a young age. Schmead21 ( talk) 04:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Paul Ham, an Aussie journalist, has written a book called "Kokoda". He has been incredibly critical of both Blamey and MacArthur. MacArthur because he was an armchair commander, issuing ridiculous, unreasonable and, quite frankly criminal orders to Australian troops. Not only this, but he was dismissive of the Australian army in general, he only went over to PNG once - and even then never saw the conditions the men were fighting in - he insisted on advancing when it was not possible, from what I understand he was one of the reasons why they never employed planes to fly out dreadfully wounded men, and he manipulated the media in Australia and in America to make out it was he who was commanding the fighters on the front line.
If it wasn't for Austraila's gallant few (the Australian militia and the 2nd AIF) who held back the advancing enemy time and time again sometimes outnumbered by a much as 6 to 1 and never giving an inch, Macarthur's true incompetence all throughout the Kokoda campaign would've been very evident, most likely resulting in the invasion of Australia. Instead Macarthur's good understanding of how to handle (some would argue manipulate)the media and make himself look very responsible for the victory of the Battle of Kokoda overshone the selfless acts of the diggers and the Fuzzy Wuzzy angles once again denying them of their rightful title as competent soldiers good men and victors.
Some time earlier in the Kokoda campaign, Macarthur added to this saying that the (australians) were an inferior fighting force and were not equal to their enemies. when in fact the opposite was true.
All in all, not a nice individual and I'm amazed that PNG wasn't successfully invaded by the Japanese (though they had their own incompetent leadership). - Ta bu shi da yu 08:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Far from "never giving an inch", the diggers retreated all the way from Buna back to Imita Ridge. They were defeated by the Japanese at every turn. Kokoda was a Australian defeat, not a victory. MacArthur was right to be concerned about the Australian performance, especially after Malaya. For a number of reasons, the Australian Army did not fight as well at Kokoda as it did in Malaya and West Timor.
The charge that MacArthur visited PNG only once is completely untrue. He was there for months on end in 1943 and 1944. His strategy was sound and subsequent events vindicated it. Higher leadership of the Australian Army was very good. The problem was that Australia had not built a balanced Army with the logistical wherewithal to fight a campaign.
Wounded men were flown out but they had to be taken to an airstrip. The loss of Kokoda meant that there was no airstrips on the track until you got back to Port Moresby. Hawkeye7 10:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Not sure what your references are Hawkeye, but all the ones I have, do not seem to mention that Kokoda was "a[n] Australian defeat" Fortunately for you and I, we still speak English due to their efforts. They obviously won at Kokoda, but it was slow due to the sheer numerical force presented by the Japanese. The Australian plan was to delay to a point where the Japanese could no longer sustain themselves and culminated. This occured and was followed by a swift counter-attack all the way to Buna. Could I recommend Peter Fitzsimons book "Kokoda" and "The Odd Couple - Blamey and MacArthur at War" by Jack Galaway.
You are right about MacArthurs presence in PNG although 'months' is also a little generous. Gallaway produces MacArthurs movements by day and states "MacArthur spent 60 days in New Guinea in 1942, but never went further north than Port Moresby. In 1943 he spent 65 days in New Guinea...[and] in 1944 ...28 days in the north..." What is true from a wide variety of reputable sources, MacArthur was not a great strategist, he instead was driven by his own ego. He lacked the integrity to speak the truth during a significant number of his communiques and was only ever interested in himself and his own development. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.168.254 ( talk) 03:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I have reviewed Galaway elsewhere and pronounced it garbage. Avoid it at all costs. Stick to the books written by historians (ie not Fitzsimmons). The best source on Australia's part in WWII is Gavin Long's "The Six Year's War", followed by Robertson's "Australia at War". For the campaigns in New Guinea, McCarthy's "South West Pacific", Dexter's "New Guinea Offensives" and Long's "Final Campaigns". For Blamey, read Horner; for MacArthur, read Clayton James. And yes, the battle of Kokoda was indeed a defeat. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 10:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
MacArthur was certainly the youngest general at the time of his promotion to brigadier general. But I was under the impression that the youngest army general in US history would have been 19 year old Gilbert Lafayette in 1778, or does the Continental Army not count? -- Bucky (unregistered user) 10:55 16 December 2005 (UTC)
The page says he made Brigadier General in 1918. If he was born in 1880, then he would have been 38, not 28 as the text states. Therefore will delete the statement that he was 28 when he made general. 144.139.175.228 02:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
There were several generals that were younger during the Civil War. Among those that come to mind are George Custer (mid-20s?) and Wesley Merritt (again mid-20s). Reportedly the youngest of all was the wonderfully named Galusha Pennypacker, who was (depending on who you talk to, either 19 or 20 when he was promoted to Brig. Gen. just after Fort Fisher in 1865. The youngest general of the World War II era (supposedly) was James Gavin, who was in his mid-30s when promoted to Brig. Gen. 68.190.212.114 02:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
MacArthur did not believe the Chinese would invade, but if they did he said our airpower would make the invasion expensive.
And aren't we all disappointed that we missed out on World War 3? Theamazingzeno ( talk) 01:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
MacArthur failed to understand conditions on the ground in Korea, and failed to anticipate that his rush to the Yalu River would put American divisions at risk in areas where airpower was tactically less useful. A more prudent general would not have split his command into such disparate pieces, spread them out, and failed to have adequate reconnaissance, communication, and military intelligence. MacArthur's incompetence was singularly responsible for the disastrous loss of life in that campaign.
IMHO PedEye1 ( talk) 00:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In the article, we have the following statement:
MacArthur's use of air power during the New Guinea campaign is considered by many historians as the first harnessing of air power to influence land warfare
This appears to be something of an over exaggeration as it makes it sound like MacArthur was the first person to think of using aricraft in a battlefield! Presumably Macarthur used planes in some novel way in this campaign but I have no idea as to what this might be. I'd suggest that we either find out what this is (with a reference) or simply remove the statement alltogether.
I didn't write that, but it would make much more sense if we added "strategically" or "from a strategic standpoint." 06:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Re his use of airpower in New Guinea, I'd call it a pioneer use of tactical airlift; "strategic" isn't the word I'd use. Trekphiler 02:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It was hardly the first major airlift. German Ju-52s carried Franco's army across the strait of Gibraltar, and the Germans had kept 80,000 troops in the Demyansk Pocket supplied by air in the winter of 41-42. Aircraft were certainly relevant to the New Guinea campaign, but I was under the impression that airpower in the South Pacific was most useful against the Japanese Navy.( TariqAlSuave 02:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC))
The section "Dismissal" contains a strong POV. From a "Search Inside" at Amazon, it seems that this POV is indeed adopted in the cited book by Halberstam (The Coldest Winter: America and the Korean War), but I couldn't find any appropriate quotes. The way it's currently phrased the POV is presented as fact. I suggest that this part should either be quoted as one view from Halberstam, or deleted. Perhaps someone who has access to the book could take this up? Joriki ( talk) 17:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to get involved in the POV issue. I'd like to point out that this section starts off "In April 1952..." but that MacArthur was removed in 1951. Could we agree to change this reference to "In April 1951..." without issues? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.197.225 ( talk) 03:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
According to the book, The Forgotten War: - Joint Chiefs requested permission to remove MacArthur 12 separate times beginning on the 1st day of the war and ending the day Truman finally concurred. The first was Ike's recommendation when he stopped by the Pentagon that first day.
- the day before the 2nd Chinese offensive (the 1st major Chinese offensive happened months before Chosin and stalled the allied advance for three days; MacArthur convinced Truman that was just volunteers), Gen O.P. Smith, USMC 1st Division, informed the Commandant that he had removed his men from under MacArthur's command and informed the US Army division commanders he would support any of them who chose to relieve MacArthur of command
- the day after the 2nd Chinese offensive, MacArthur ordered SAC to hit Chinese positions with the atomic bomb, informing the local SAC commander that he had authority from Truman to do so; the SAC commander refused without first obtaining confirmation from the Pentagon; yes, Virginia, there really was a Dr Strangelove
- our UN allies informed Truman they would pull out of Korea if MacArthur remained
- Ridgway, who arrived the day after the 2nd Chinese offensive, assumed immediate command of the theater. Technically, he reported to MacArthur, informing him of his decisions after the fact, but he took no orders from MacArthur
Bottom line: the "Truman dismissed MacArthur over policy" story was used to conceal how screwed up Mac had left things in Korea and, more importantly, that a rogue American general tried to launch an unauthorized nuclear war. We did not learn this until the retired US Army General who wrote the "Forgotten War" used the Freedom Of Information Act to get this data declassified. Badmac ( talk) 20:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Because of the size of the article I created Places named for Douglas MacArthur and Service summary of Douglas MacArthur. Places remains a section with a template direction to new article, most of the material moved was schools roads etc.. Service summary I added to the See Also section since it was a recapitulation of the sections of the main article. Awotter ( talk) 00:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I changed it to the Sov declaration; despite common U.S. opinion today, in Japan at the time, it seems, the Sov declaration was the bigger influence (since Japanese cities were being burned on a routine basis by then...). Anybody that wants to mention both, feel free; I'd very strongly discourage the (previous) emphasis on it being the Bomb alone. Trekphiler ( talk) 09:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The Soviets had declared war some considerable time previously. It was the "shock" factor of the bomb more than the destruction itself which "did the trick". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.1.17 ( talk) 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The Soviets declared war on Japan on 8 August 1945, effective 9 August - after the nuclear strike on Hiroshima on 6 August but before that on Nagasaki on 9 August. Japan offered to surrender on 10 August. Japanese historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa has written a whole book about this, Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan (Belknap Press, 2005)), an hour-by-hour examination of how and why the Japanese leadership decided to surrender, compiled from the Japanese documents. His conclusion is that it was the Soviet declaration of war and not the Hiroshima or Nagasaki bombings that led to the Japanese surrender. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 21:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Somebody apparently Rhinocerous Ranger has made hash of most of the references list. Someone who knows how, please fix. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alrees ( talk • contribs) 22:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I see this has been fixed by Eupator, Thanks Alrees ( talk) 20:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
From the "Dismissal" section:
MacArthur by this time had not been back to the United States for more than twenty years and suffered from paranoia, self-destructive impulses, and political aspirations, and he had visions of running against Truman in the 1952 elections.
The construction "... suffered from paranoia, self-destructive impulses, and political aspirations" suggests that we think political aspirations are something one "suffers from", like the aforementioned mental conditions. Also, in the context of this sentence, it is not clear whether the word "visions" refers to a visionary state (which would go with the context of mental conditions) or just reinforcing the "political aspirations". -- FOo ( talk) 10:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Surely his role as military governor of Japan (Supereme Commander of the Allied Powers) should be included in the info box? Cripipper ( talk) 08:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Those who insist upon giving the date of the attack on Pearl Harbor as Dec 8 based on Philippine local time should insert this technicality as a footnote. One of the objectives of these articles should be clarity. Remember that this article will be read by school children for whom WW2 is ancient history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RandomTool2 ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I find this:
"On the day of the attack on Pearl Harbor (December 8, 1941, in Manila), MacArthur was Allied commander in the Philippines."
to be confusing. The way it is worded might make people a) think the article is incorrect or b) actually believe the Pearl Harbor attack occurred on 8 December 1941 in Manila. Yes, I understand there was an attack on the Philippines hours later, and that local time would mean it was December 8, not 7. Can that be restated for clarity? I was going to but then found I wanted to rewrite that paragraph completely.
MicheleFloyd ( talk) 18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
MicheleFloyd, if you can find a way that's clear & doesn't invite constant reversion, I'll give you your own personal Barnstar, free gratis & for nothing, autographed by Elvis. Trekphiler ( talk) 01:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know what high school General MacArthur was an alumnus of? GO-PCHS-NJROTC ( talk) 01:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
That's nothing worth adding to this article. Dragonrider27 ( talk) 19:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Particularly seeing as it's already there. MacArthur went to West Texas Military Academy, now known as TMI — The Episcopal School of Texas in San Antonio. It's mentioned in Manchester's biography, amongst other places. He also revisited the school after the Second World War to make a speech, much as he did with West Point.
This page is heavily pov- see for example
"The speech was recorded, and even in MacArthur's old and faltering voice, it is still possible to hear the mesmerizing presence and towering ego which drove him throughout his career. His stirring final passage sounds like a voice from another age[...]"
213.246.191.57 ( talk) 09:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Somebody has removed both the POV dispute tag I placed on the main page and the rationale for it that I placed here on the talk page. As I said previously, (and was supported in this view by many other editors) the article has no balance and appears to have been hijacked by Macarthur hagiographers. I and others have tried to redress the imbalance before. However, the numerous referenced criticisms from reputable sources which several editors have posted have been repeatedly and systematically removed.
Life is too short to get into edit wars with those who appear to have infinite persistence, but it is reasonable to at least warn article readers that there is a significant difference of opinion on the veracity of this article. RichardH ( talk) 04:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
"largely responsible for the increased diversion of resources to the Pacific"? I wouldn't disagree, but it wasn't that simple (& I'd fix it if I had sources to hand...). There were two campaigns in PTO, his & Nimitz's, & FDR's inability to choose between them (or unwillingness, 'cause choosing Nimitz was liable to mean Dougie would be Stateside running for President before the ink was dry on the orders) put a strain on logistics & increased the number of LCs in-theatre. (It wasn't helped by slow unloading of shipping...) TREKphiler hit me ♠ 19:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, it was in front of me all along. here's the source for the phrase you quoted. At the very end of the text (before the footnotes) there's a synthesis that states MacArthur's and King's roles in pulling resources away from a Europe First goal. The reference system here works. ;^) Binksternet ( talk) 21:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
"Interestingly, the official record of the day's events by the Army Air Corps' command has been clearly altered, with numerous erasures and type-overs." Is that sourced? And is it more than a reflection of bad typing by an incompetent clerk? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 01:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
This language may be questionable... "As an anticipatory gesture in 1945, MacArthur had given his treasured Gold Castles engineers' insignia, a personal possession, to his chief engineer, Jack Sverdrup; and while MacArthur himself may have just faded away, these insignia continue to be worn by the Army's Chief of Engineers as a tradition." Anyone else have an opinion? 68.230.99.224 ( talk) 16:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
"Anticipatory" and "personal possession" are completely unnecessary. We ought to document the gift neutrally without trying to guess motivation. The whole "while MacArthur himself may have just faded away" should go. Binksternet ( talk) 17:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I believe the line while MacArthur himself may have just faded away was merely a reference to this quote "Old soldiers never die; they just fade away... And like the old soldier of that ballad, I now close my military career and just fade away — an old soldier who tried to do his duty as God gave him the light to see that duty. Good-bye." and was not making a judgment of McArthur or his influence. I believe it was an acceptable if unnecessary stylistic decision (that was probably missed by most people) on the original authors part. Zamp m ( talk) 02:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
There are several important issues on this article that you all should discuss further, especially as regards strategic disobedience and counteraction of brinkmanship; and a good start would be learning all the names of the letters, memorizing multiplication tables, and the primary colors for fingerpainting.
98.230.27.142 ( talk) 13:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
User:Trekphiler, be serious. I have no admiration for Douglas MacArthur, much less his contemptible and paranoia-fueled assault on the Bonus Army. This is a simple matter of policy and good writing. The sentence in question is:"It should be noted, however, that no supporting evidence for MacArthur's charges have ever surfaced." First, it is a clear example of words to avoid. Second, it is unverified and unsourced. Third, the next sentence cites a reliable source to prove the same point neutrally and effectively. When I said "unnecessary," I meant "unnecessary." A little good faith next time? Deltabeignet ( talk) 22:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
This is a question from a German Wikipedia-user. In the Geman Wikipedia Douglas MacArthur is referred to as the "most decorated soldier in the history of the US armed forces". Can we really use that description?
Douglas MacArthur got the highest Decoration (MoH) once, other Soldiers got it twice. And as far as I know, other soldiers got more Decorations (in numbers).
Is it appropriate to use this kind of description?
PS German Wikipedia does not make a difference between Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force and it does not refer to a specific period of time. It just says "most decorated soldier in the history of the US armed forces".-- 84.173.135.206 ( talk) 01:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.156.154 ( talk) 19:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This section has some NPOV and balancing issues that really need to be addressed. First, as is often the case with "Controversy" sections in general (and "Criticism" sections, which is really what this particular section is), it's completely weighted in favor of one point of view. There is nothing provided to balance out the critics or provide the alternative viewpoint. There are many sources that defend MacArthur against the charges made in this section, but they are entirely omitted. Instead, what we have is a one-sided treatment of the issue and a magnet for attacks. As such, it violates NPOV.
The second problem I have with this section is that it relies excessively upon one source -- namely, Max Hastings. There are 12 citations within this section and half of them (footnote 51 is a duplicate cite to Retribution) are to Hastings. This, IMO, is undue weight and, fairly or unfairly, could cause the reader to discount the section as better reflecting the attacks of one detractor rather than the synthesis of common and considered criticism. Some diversity is in order. MacArthur, as a polarizing figure, doesn't want for critics, so it shouldn't be that difficult to replace a couple of Hastings citations with cites to different sources.
Finally, I see several examples of a source's subjective opinion blatantly passed off as hard fact. This is especially common with the cites to Hastings. I've listed the most egregious examples below, with the portions I find offending in italics.
To sum up, this section suffers from three severe infirmities: (1) it's unbalanced, (2) it gives undue weight to a single source, and (3) it presents opinions and subjective assessments as matters of fact. The third malady is easily correctable, as I think rewrites along the lines of the examples I've given above adequately address the issue. I plan on making those revisions in the coming days, barring any objections. The other two are obviously more intensive tasks.- PassionoftheDamon ( talk) 04:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't even think this section is encyclopedic. The matters mentioned are drawn heavily from opinion skillfully presented like facts Thinkinggecko ( talk) 12:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I am removing the phrase "dereliction of duty". The reference for MacArthur's poor showing on December 8, 1941 being called "dereliction of duty" was supposed to be the Bartsch book. After a more thorough reading of the book, I see that Bartsch never uses this phrase on Mac; the only mention of it is on page 419 in regard to Colonel Harold George, chief of staff at V Interceptor Command, who sat on suspicious early radar contacts of the air attack and didn't forward them as required until far too late. The worst that MacArthur gets from Bartsch is that Mac didn't confer with Brereton early December 8, that Mac didn't attack Formosa immediately upon hearing of Pearl Harbor, and that Mac never responded appropriately to General Arnold's instruction to take defensive measures including dispersion of aircraft.
So... I don't know of any other expert author who has written specifically that MacArthur was derelict in his duties. Am I missing someone? Binksternet ( talk) 16:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Surely MacArthur is the most highly decorated US soldier of WW2. He has the MOH, 3 DSC and 7 Silver Stars. Places him ahead of Audie. Wallie ( talk) 14:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
This has to be pointed out. MacArthur is an extremely brave man according to the citiation. To resist the enemy under heavy fire and bmbardment takes great courage. The fact that he was an older man makes it all the more remarkable. Wallie ( talk) 15:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
that corncob pipe looks kinda photoshopped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.202.179 ( talk) 03:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
gosh darn it, that corncob pipe just looks so implausible to me.
But I guess I must defer to Oliphaunt. He is like a tiger of
the internet. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.183.202.150 (
talk)
15:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
The statement "He brought along many talented mid-career officers, including George C. Marshall, and Dwight D. Eisenhower" is debatable. Explicitly contrary to, and probably because of, Pershing's recommendations to put Marshall on the fast track MacArthur relegated him to the National Guard at one point. Eisenhower probably had his "rabbis" as a field grade, but one may need to strain to count MacArthur among them. Mct mht ( talk) 02:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the post nominal letters GCB, referring to his honorary status as Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath, from the introduction of this article as Mr. MacArthur was not closely associated with the United Kingdom in the sense required by the Manual of Style for biographies. The full style guidelines for the use of post nominal letters can be viewed here: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Post-nominal_initials. TrufflesTheLamb ( talk) 20:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_honor the CMH is award to those who "…conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States…"
My questions are:
1) At which part of the Battle for the Philippines did Dugout Doug ever risk his life?
2) At which point was he personally engaged in action against the Japanese?
Seems to me that his award of the CMH in 1942 was a complete travesty and totally at odds with the requirements of the award.
SDJ 2/28/08
In this article, it said that ..."General Charles T. Menoher once said that he was the "greatest fighting man" in the army." That enough sounds like more of a reason to atleast look at him as a possible candidate for the MOH. He only recieved it in the Battle of the Philippines because they needed to find a reason to award him. He earned it a lot earlier then when it was awarded to him. FHS 4/7/09 —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
97.107.66.16 (
talk)
18:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
ultimately, McArthur was awarded the Medal of Honor. One can debate the reason, but he did win it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.241.174 ( talk) 18:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by [s[Special:Contributions/75.142.211.19|75.142.211.19]] ( talk) 07:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
You do not "win" the Medal of Honor. You receive it. ( not even that, you are awarded the Medal of Honor.) Some would say that you are invested with the Medal.
68.100.161.83 15:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
He was "awarded" the medal for his defense during the Battle for the Philippines. Dragonrider27 ( talk) 20:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I find it interesting in this context that almost alone of Wikipedia articles on Medal of Honor winners, MacArthur's article does not contain the citation. Is that because the citation, when compared against available documentation, wouldn't pass the giggle test? Peter.zimmerman ( talk) 17:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What no mention of his firing on the WWI Veterans?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.49.193.178 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 7 July 2002.
Because that is Communist crap from the "bonus march" of 1932. In fact the only serious combat took place BEFORE the military took over. Some policemen and some bonus marchers had a fight (with casualties on both sides).
When MacArthur took over he managed to defeat the bonus marchers (some of whom were not WWI Veterans) without killing anyone. The Communists never forgave him for denying them their "martyrs" so they invented some.
Paul Marks.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.63.48.48 ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 31 May 2006.
Excuse me but could you please site some of your sources for this comment? As I believe them to be historically inaccurate and I just want to know your sources; since even the most mainstream American history book has the incident documented. Also I really don't think the people at Princeton Press(they publish a lot of classroom text books)are communists. Zeelog —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.164.37.128 ( talk) 14:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I question the changing of the spelling to "modern" Korean terms. If someone is going to want to know what MacArthur did at Inchon, they're not going to know to look at Incheon. Should we rename the movie "Fifty-five Days at Beijing"? -- Zoe
Is the general's name spelled Matthew B. Ridgway or Matthew B. Ridgeway? I've seen Ridgway used more often, although Ridgeway is how it is spelled on the NATO website.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ugen64 ( talk • contribs) 23:49, 10 October 2003.
I question the writing ability of the author of this article. "He was busying praying" while the invasion was occurring? ugen64 01:44, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
Why not cover other people's mistakes when possible to do so without dishonor? 金 15:25, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This seems relevant, but I don't know how to integrate it.
Unfortunately for General Douglas MacArthur, the codebreakers were able to read the communications of Spain's ambassador to Tokyo and other diplomats, who noted that in their discussions with the general, he made clear his secret hope for all-out war with China and Russia, including the use of nuclear weapons if necessary. In a rare instance of secret NSA intercepts playing a major part in US politics, once the messages were shown to President Truman, MacArthur's career abruptly ended. - http://www.nybooks.com/articles/23231 -- 198.45.18.20 ( talk) 13:43, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
The attempted crossing of the River Ourck by the 42nd Infantry (Rainbow) Division took place in late July, 1918.
Harry Truman was Battery Commander of D Battery, 129th ARtillery Regiment which was part of or attached to the 35th Infantry Regiment. Its first engagement was not until September, 1918. The 129th Artillery Regiment would not have had any role with the 42nd Infantry Division.
See Geoffrey Perret: Old Soldiers Never Die, 1996, NY, Random House. Also see the history of the 129th ARtillery Regiment on line.
However, in Manchester's book, there is the comment that Truman served briefly under MacArthur, but no explanation.
In McCullough's book on Truman, there is no reference to any contact between the 129th aand the 42nd. According to McCullough, the 129th did not move up to the front until August, and may not have been in any action until September, 1918.
141.157.88.215 ( talk) 15:08, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
This article is ridiculously one-side and reads almost like something from the general's press agent. His very clear failures are passed over. For example, there's no mention that
In addition, the article barely mentions how badly MacArthur misjudged the possibilty of Chinese intervention on behalf of North Korea, or how many consider the Chinese intervention to be the "worst debacle in American military history" (to quote Bradford A. Lee). And while the article goes into extensive depth about how MacArthur "made his greatest contribution to history in the next five and a half years" as leader of the American occupation of Japan, it doesn't mention that a great many of his most significant reforms (industrial deconcentration and dismantling the zaibatsus, developing a Japanese labor movement) were almost completely reversed following 1948, when George C. Marshall sent George Kennan to Japan to take over what was widely perceived (by the U.S. government, at least) to be MacArthur's ineffectual and counter-productive reconstruction efforts. (See Michael Schaller, The American Occupation of Japan (Oxford, 1985).)
Instead, this article reads like a partisan of MacArthur's abortive 1950s-era presidential campaign. Puleeze. He wasn't all that and a bag of potato chips. Epstein's Mother 23:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Schaller is a polemicist who is great at digging up facts to support biased half-truths and venomous lies, like David Irving only left-wing and apparently not against the law these days. Anything by him including on this page must be balanced by someone without an anti-MacArthur agenda.[ 03:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The article seems like a fair rundown of his life, and in some parts it is actually a bit more negative than positive. Nothing as biased against him as Schaller, but nothing particularly laudatory either. It mentions the major controversies without offering an opinion on them. It doesn't say anything such as "others commend his actions during the Korean War, believing them to have prevented a complete loss," but instead comes close to suggesting that it is a hard fact that his actions were wrong rather than noble. As if "everyone knows" that. Was there a poll taken recently? It also leaves out important things he did, for better or worse, on his own accord during that war. Other than that, the article looks fine.
As for MacArthur's abilities as a commander, the brilliance with which he planned and commanded invasions and major offensive operations was unrivaled by any military leader of the 20th Century with the possible exception of Erwin Rommel. In that category he is actually the most underrated general in history . However, his skills as a defensive strategist were faulty and compared to his awe-inspiring offensive strategies, often abysmal. His management of logistics usually wasn't the best either, but it wasn't as responsible for the Philippines fiasco as as it is often claimed to be. MacArthur's weaknesses were only part of the problem, FDR was the main one to blame for that. His "Europe First" policy made no sense from an American standpoint, and even before America was officially drawn into the war he was paying more attention to helping Britain than defending the Pacific. The only wise policy relating to military logistics ever enacted by FDR was his refusal to bomb the concentration camp traintracks. As a tactician MacArthur was always excellent even during his worst moments, because he still managed to inflict more casualties than the enemy expected. He lost fewer men during his entire World War II career than Eisenhower did in the Battle of Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge (seperately, not put together), but critcs always seem to single him out for accusations of losing too many men. As far as casualties ratios, his record is again one of the greatest in history. The so-called historians who attack his military abilities are politically motivated. They dislike him because he was politically controversial and took political matters into his own hands in ways that determined the course of the 20th Century. Whether he was a dangerous arch-criminal on par with Hitler or the only truly courageous American patriot of the 20th Century to hold such a high position of world-altering power, MacArthur siezed and impacted the course of history in a way that few other post-Napoleanic Western leaders did. It's understandably difficult to get an honest and fair evaluation of such a man's strengths and shortcomings as a military leader. George Marshall, someone who really was "not all that and a bag of potato chips" in the grand scheme of things was nowhere near as historically significant as MacArthur, a lobster criticizing a shark because the scraps taste a bit too fishy. 10:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Not really McArthur relevant, but I'd like to argue that FDR's policy made perfect sense from an American standpoint, both in the short term and longer term...
FDR was the main one to blame for that. His "Europe First" policy made no sense from an American standpoint
Actually, "Europe First" made perfect sense from a U.S. grand strategy standpoint. At first, the USSR, bearing the brunt of the land war in Europe against Nazi Germany, were intensely suspicious of the U.S./U.K. cutting a deal with Germany for peace on the European theater's Western Front; this indeed was the sentiment of much of the Nazi leadership, who after the fall of France and the Low Countries in 1940 repeatedly expressed a willingness to allow the U.K. to retain her Empire in exchange for a free hand on the Continent, particularly with regard to Eastern Europe. Rudolf Hess's Quixotic flight to England, deranged though it was, was with the intention of negotiating peace with Britain, an idea that was quite popular in Nazi circles at the time.
Stain frequently and bitterly complained to the West regarding the lack of a "second front". If the U.S.S.R. had collapsed in the early years after Barbarossa (1941 or 1942), which didn't seem at all impossible with the tremendous German gains in the first two years of that front, Germany would have gained almost unfettered, blockade-proof access to the oil fields of the Caucasus, the wheat fields of the Ukraine, and the other vast natural treasures of European Russia. Germany could have then relegated nearly all of their military resources to defense in the West, and through access to the sea through Scandinavia and the Baltic ports, they might have eventually developed a naval force sufficient to challenge the U.S. and the U.K. in the Atlantic. An Allied invasion of Europe would have been several orders of magnitude more costly and difficult with no Eastern front to divide the German land army.
Finally, they might have closed the Mediterranean and Suez, which Churchill later admitted would have made continuing U.K. prosecution of the war doubtful.
It was therefore critical to insure there was no Soviet collapse.
Later in the war, once it became clear that Nazi Germany would never conquer the U.S.S.R., and indeed the reverse was more likely, there was all the more pressure on the U.S./U.K. to get their land armies afoot on the continent, before much of Western Europe was overrun by the Red Army as they rolled back the Germans. It was absolutely critical to have Allied shoeleather on significant amounts of German soid, in order to participate in the shaping of the postwar continent. The Normandy invasions were barely in time to avoid total postwar Soviet control East of the Rhine.
Japan's war goals were far different than Germany's, although rooted in a similar quest for access to resources and empire. Japan did not pose a near-term threat to the continental U.S. Their conquest of Pacific islands was in order to make the Pacific, and in particular the Western Pacific, a Japanese lake, and to remove the ability of the U.S. and European empires the ability to project power to the Asian mainland. The Pacific islands themselves are of negligible value in terms of natural resources.
Japan already had conquered large areas of the Asian mainland, however their land army in Asia was heavily committed, and their conquests in Asia up until Pearl Harbor were not fully developed, requiring more infrastructure such as railways, in order to increase their striking distance further West into the Indian subcontinent.
Embeddedcynic ( talk) 08:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to address the original essay point by point:
I would also like to point out that MacArthur had no influence on the Korean peninsula before the war broke out..politically or logistically. Whatever his feelings or opinions, its doubtful he could have done little to anything. Delphicrates ( talk) 08:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I have been working on this article the last couple days trying to clear up some of the many many issues that it has and I need to get a second opinion on a couple things. Normally I would just charge ahead and do it but do to the very high visibility of this article I wanted to pose it here first. First, I do not believe this article, in its current state, is even up to B level. There are POV issues, citationn issues and its generally speaking just a mess. I want to downgrade this and then once I have fixed some of the issues then resubmit it for a B class review by another editor so I can get a fresh set of eyes on it. I am also planning on building on and cleaning up some of the parellel articles at the same time. Second, I want to structure the pages with his awards and honors into lists due to the volume of data (he has over 110 military awards alone) and build them up as lists working into the FLC process, unless someone has a problem with that. I am also planning on doing a peer review after I get it up to B class but if anyone has comments about the article, I would appreciate the insight and suggestions. I am also going to leave this comment on the article talk paheg as well. -- Kumioko ( talk) 05:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's some easy points I see missing:
Comment:
Hawkeye7 ( talk) 20:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd recommend the following:
{{
cite book}}
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value: invalid character (
help)The 3 volume Clayton is horrifically detailed (one volume alone for WWII) and Manchester treats the subject fairly from both sides. MacArthur's memoirs of course are required for this article. I think the best thing to do would be to stick with major publishing houses for use in this article. Of course we need more books than this but these are the ones I recall reading. -- Brad ( talk) 09:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
WorldCat has a listing of works that MacArthur authored. The link includes all audio, video and text but keep in mind that it's showing all versions. -- Brad ( talk) 12:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
A search at American Heritage Magazine turns up some interesting articles. Probably good for secondary sources. -- Brad ( talk) 14:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. Clayton James is the authoritative biography of MacArthur. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 06:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I was at the library today and picked up Perret, Geoffrey (1996), Old Soldiers Never Die: The Life and Legend of Douglas MacArthur, Random House, ISBN 0-679-42882-8 so I can use references from this book. I don't want to step on toes so perhaps assigning me a section to work on would prevent that. -- Brad ( talk) 21:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Just some preliminary thoughts on spin off articles. Service summary of Douglas MacArthur should probably be renamed and utilized for Military career of Douglas MacArthur. Criticism of Douglas MacArthur is likely going to be needed as well. -- Brad ( talk) 13:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
The World War I section was brief, but terribly riddled with errors. Consider the original version:
Aarrghh. We're going to have to check everything carefully. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 11:14, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
In the Veracruz section, the "they"s & "them"s are a bit convoluted & it's not really clear who is who. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 00:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC)