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I thought Ewa Klobukowska was also caught during the Olmypic games for gender cheating? Ewa failed a chromosone test, while Dora appears to be full blown male. Is that fact still true or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.43.251.4 ( talk) 10:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Ratjen apparently changed identified gender twice: first, from male to female, and then from female to male. Therefore, I reported Ratjen as a "she" for the period in which she dressed and identified as a woman, and as a "he" for when her/his biological maleness was revealed and he went back to identifying as a man. Yes, this looks weird, but I think it properly attributes gender to the proper time periods. — Rickyrab | Talk 14:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
It seems the sources to this article are useless. If I see this right, there is only one source for the alleged "request of the Nazi Youth movement" & that is Ratjen himself in 1957. The way this is written here implies better sources than there are. I think, the approach in the German Wikipedia is better: "In 1957 he claimed to have been forced/coerced by the League of German Girls (Bund Deutscher Mädels) ,,,"
Doesn't claim independent sources where there are none. bossel ( talk) 21:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
For original documents and photos see the article in Der Spiegel: Skandal um Dora (in German). He was born with a sort of superficial genital malformation, and was registered at birth as Dora, and then spent his whole life until 1938 as a girl. He was renamed Heinrich by an official change in the Register of Persons in 1939. No evidence of a "plot" has been found. Anyway, if there had been a plot, the Reich's sport administration would have kept the lid on it. Don't forget, there was a dictature in Germany under Adolf Hitler, and no little policeman in Magdeburg could buck the system... The "plot" originated in the heads of writers who supply Yellow journalism. Kraxler ( talk) 13:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The Spiegel article in English :
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,649104,00.html
I've rewritten parts of the article, and added refs, with the intention of presenting both sides of the argument over the Der Spiegel report and the contrary views presented by Time and the makers of the Berlin 36 movie. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I hate to be difficult but the recent changes which have massively altered the narrative of this article are, I believe, based on an 'investigation conducted in 1938 and 1939'. Surely it should be worth pointing out that a Nazi-era investigation would have had a specific interest in showing that they had not known about Ratjen's sex and gender differences before the '36 Olympic games. I doubt that they have been interested in proving that they were cheats. I mean, the Nazis weren't particularly interested in historical accuracy when it came to a host of other subjects: They liked to pretend that the lost city of Atlantis was real and, of course, their ideas about racial science were based on self-interest and bigotry. I have not changed the article myself because I do not know enough about the subject but I do think that these points are worth considering. EttaLove ( talk) 11:44, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
I am certainly not suggesting that the new information be deleted or changed in any way. Certainly, I recognise Der Spiegel as a reliable source and I have read the article cited on the Dora Ratjen page. But, it seems to me, that there should at least be a suggestion that the Nazis had reasons to be untruthful. I am not German and my knowledge of German history is flawed to say the least but I do vaguely remember learning about Nazi 'investigations' that were geared towards doing good for the Nazi regime. For example, I remember one military man whose mother signed sworn affidavits saying that her German uncle (rather than her Jewish husband) had fathered all of her children. Despite the fact that this was blatantly a lie the Nazis accepted it and filed it because this military man could do them some good. I know that I am deviating from the point but I do feel that it is definitely worth pointing out, in some small way, that Nazi sources are not going to be the most reliable sources. EttaLove ( talk) 13:42, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
The page has Ratjen linked to "intersexed people", but it's not clear about whether he was infact intersexed or if he was a male mistakenly raised a female. It gets a bit more confusing when the narration illustrates that he eventually finds he was a male and continued to live as a female, until his discovery by police. Maybe the link to "intersexed people" in the category should be removed; or the article should clearly say that he was indeed intersexed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.161.12 ( talk) 13:45, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone know the date of the photograph? 1936? In the photo, it is apparent that (s)he is a man: facially, adam's apple, and upper torso. How could anyone have thought (s)he was female?! Arrivisto ( talk) 12:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
How is this possible? Those trains should go via Munich or Nuremberg and Frankfurt am Main. Calle Widmann ( talk) 20:48, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Jewish, Germany, WWII....what happened to this person during that time? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:5802:3900:C8BD:3F88:802A:7CB4 ( talk) 22:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I thought Ewa Klobukowska was also caught during the Olmypic games for gender cheating? Ewa failed a chromosone test, while Dora appears to be full blown male. Is that fact still true or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.43.251.4 ( talk) 10:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Ratjen apparently changed identified gender twice: first, from male to female, and then from female to male. Therefore, I reported Ratjen as a "she" for the period in which she dressed and identified as a woman, and as a "he" for when her/his biological maleness was revealed and he went back to identifying as a man. Yes, this looks weird, but I think it properly attributes gender to the proper time periods. — Rickyrab | Talk 14:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
It seems the sources to this article are useless. If I see this right, there is only one source for the alleged "request of the Nazi Youth movement" & that is Ratjen himself in 1957. The way this is written here implies better sources than there are. I think, the approach in the German Wikipedia is better: "In 1957 he claimed to have been forced/coerced by the League of German Girls (Bund Deutscher Mädels) ,,,"
Doesn't claim independent sources where there are none. bossel ( talk) 21:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
For original documents and photos see the article in Der Spiegel: Skandal um Dora (in German). He was born with a sort of superficial genital malformation, and was registered at birth as Dora, and then spent his whole life until 1938 as a girl. He was renamed Heinrich by an official change in the Register of Persons in 1939. No evidence of a "plot" has been found. Anyway, if there had been a plot, the Reich's sport administration would have kept the lid on it. Don't forget, there was a dictature in Germany under Adolf Hitler, and no little policeman in Magdeburg could buck the system... The "plot" originated in the heads of writers who supply Yellow journalism. Kraxler ( talk) 13:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The Spiegel article in English :
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,649104,00.html
I've rewritten parts of the article, and added refs, with the intention of presenting both sides of the argument over the Der Spiegel report and the contrary views presented by Time and the makers of the Berlin 36 movie. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 22:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I hate to be difficult but the recent changes which have massively altered the narrative of this article are, I believe, based on an 'investigation conducted in 1938 and 1939'. Surely it should be worth pointing out that a Nazi-era investigation would have had a specific interest in showing that they had not known about Ratjen's sex and gender differences before the '36 Olympic games. I doubt that they have been interested in proving that they were cheats. I mean, the Nazis weren't particularly interested in historical accuracy when it came to a host of other subjects: They liked to pretend that the lost city of Atlantis was real and, of course, their ideas about racial science were based on self-interest and bigotry. I have not changed the article myself because I do not know enough about the subject but I do think that these points are worth considering. EttaLove ( talk) 11:44, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
I am certainly not suggesting that the new information be deleted or changed in any way. Certainly, I recognise Der Spiegel as a reliable source and I have read the article cited on the Dora Ratjen page. But, it seems to me, that there should at least be a suggestion that the Nazis had reasons to be untruthful. I am not German and my knowledge of German history is flawed to say the least but I do vaguely remember learning about Nazi 'investigations' that were geared towards doing good for the Nazi regime. For example, I remember one military man whose mother signed sworn affidavits saying that her German uncle (rather than her Jewish husband) had fathered all of her children. Despite the fact that this was blatantly a lie the Nazis accepted it and filed it because this military man could do them some good. I know that I am deviating from the point but I do feel that it is definitely worth pointing out, in some small way, that Nazi sources are not going to be the most reliable sources. EttaLove ( talk) 13:42, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
The page has Ratjen linked to "intersexed people", but it's not clear about whether he was infact intersexed or if he was a male mistakenly raised a female. It gets a bit more confusing when the narration illustrates that he eventually finds he was a male and continued to live as a female, until his discovery by police. Maybe the link to "intersexed people" in the category should be removed; or the article should clearly say that he was indeed intersexed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.161.12 ( talk) 13:45, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone know the date of the photograph? 1936? In the photo, it is apparent that (s)he is a man: facially, adam's apple, and upper torso. How could anyone have thought (s)he was female?! Arrivisto ( talk) 12:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
How is this possible? Those trains should go via Munich or Nuremberg and Frankfurt am Main. Calle Widmann ( talk) 20:48, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Jewish, Germany, WWII....what happened to this person during that time? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:5802:3900:C8BD:3F88:802A:7CB4 ( talk) 22:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)