![]() | This user proudly drinks ayran. |
Attention doogh lovers: Use this template to tell everyone how you love doogh!-- Zereshk 10:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused. The article states that doogh is "similar to [..] Ayran, although the latter is not carbonated." Does that mean that doogh is carbonated? While a later section addresses this point, it should really be mentioned sooner. -- Ec5618 19:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Dogh is very common in Afghanistan and common in the western half of Pakistan, and is NEVER carbonated. In the eastern half of Pakistan it turns into lassi and is either sweet or salty, I'm not sure of the difference between salty lassi and traditional dogh, but it tastes very different.
Afghanistani dogh is quote sour, frequently made from sheep/goat milk and is never carbonated or sweetened. I live in the viscinity and have never had sweetened dogh (except in Karachi, southeast Pakistan) or carbonated dogh except in Iran (one sip was quote enough). Dogh however is a daily ration in Balochistan and most of Afghanistan except the most urban areas. It is frequently poured from sheepskin containers carried by shepherds. I suspect an alcoholic content in dogh since it makes you sleepy so fast it knocks a guest out in 5 minutes regardless of nationality or previous exposure to dogh. Its always pronounced dogh in central afghanistan and Balochistan and never doogh. I suspect this is an Iranian pronunciation.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.197.228.3 ( talk) 10:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
dogh is a very popular drink in afghanistan too, and I can't understand why it's not mentioned. also, in afghanistan it can be carbonated, but usually is not, and sometimes its served with cucumber inside.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.244.201 ( talk) 09:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Doogh is and is not carbonated. It depends. As sold in the streets of Iran, they are carbonated. Like Doogh of Abali. But if you step into a good classy restaurant in Iran, or anywhere else, doogh is not carbonated and is homemade.
In homes, people often make and drink the homemade uncarbonated version, unless they buy it from the grocery shop or something.
This also applies to outside Iran. Here in Texas, they sell the carbonated version in "Ali Baba's Mediterranean food store" (the biggest Iranian food store in town). But if you go to "Shiraz Persian Cuisine" restaurant, youll be served the uncarbonated version.-- Zereshk 01:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
it is written that Doogh is naturally carbonated. I think it is not true. in Iran there are bottled doogh which are carbonated but there are also doogh which are not. A home made doogh is is not carbonated. My conclusion is therefore Ayran= Doogh. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting, but in the article doogh, it reads so. Could you make necessary changes in doogh? Thanks. --Chapultepec (talk) 20:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC) I would like to do, but I have not written that there. I just copy and paste our communcations in that page and let's see whether the original author changes it. If not I will edit that page myself. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ayran"
Can somebody please tell me this is the Mastaow in Kurdish language or not? Chaldean 01:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
YES, Its the same. Mastaow and doogh are the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.204.107 ( talk) 18:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
isn't the image in the article with the caption "local doogh of isfahan" picturing "ash-e doogh/mast". it can't be doogh.-- Xashaiar ( talk) 02:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
What about we merge it in Ayran? As it is pointed above, the doogh CAN be carbonated or not, sa can the Ayran. They really ARE the same thing. OR we do something else: We specify under this article the carbonated version, and under Ayran the non carbonated one.
Cheers,
-- Emir Ali Enç ( talk) 00:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
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It's pretty obvious that Ayran is the far more common name than Doogh. The merge should have been to Ayran instead of to this article. Gune ( talk) 01:07, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Jamaas9 ( talk) 22:48, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
@ LouisAragon: Hi, LouisAragon, hope you have been well. Will not revert your edits even though your edit summary doesn't address what I said correctly. Could you please source that doogh came from modern Iran as this the source doesn't say that. Your analysis implies that every cuisine that Iranian nationals eat as native cuisine must have been originally from modern borders of present-day Iran. Using your logic, I could say that a book written about Central Asian history, by definition, makes everything about it exclusively belonging to only Central Asia -- even if there is an indication that this may not be fully the case. My edits implies that it could come from anywhere in Greater Iran due to our shared native Persian heritage, which by definition of "heritage", may include shared native cuisine. We have to write neutrally if we are not sure. Are you 100% (or something close to that effect) sure this must have come from present-day Iran's borders? If so, please provide me a very credible link from a food historian so I may understand our heritage more. Furthermore, do you have clear evidence this food item didn't come from another modern Persian ethnic group such as Tajiks or Tats or even other non-Persian modern and ancient Iranians ethnic groups?
Otherwise, could you provide evidence that everytime a person uses "Ancient Persia" they mean modern Iranian borders vis-a-vis exclusively? I believe that this is technically a POV issue among other thing and at least one that needs a solid citation if I may be able to express my humble opinion to you. Thank you Jamaas9 ( talk) 01:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
article (personally, the article now is balanced enough that it is implictly understood that this is referring to modern day culture of Iranians nationals imho.) Kind regards and thank you for your time. Thanks and kind regards. Jamaas9 ( talk) 23:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Actually the confusion is on your part. Your edit removed (modern day Iran) from:
This sentence makes no comment as to the origin of this drink. Your comment:
Seemingly the same thing. We should either merge these, or create separate articles for the two remaining most popular types of the drink (Doogh and Tan). Personally, I think we should do the latter, as the drinks are quite different from one another. Openlydialectic ( talk) 13:18, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Doogh can be carbonated or non-carbonated. This beverage is also classified as being part of multiple cuisines such as Iranian. -- 207.233.110.67 ( talk) 19:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq:@ Barkeep49:@ Princeofpersia187:@ Lithopsian: It seems the consensus to merge the articles Ayran and Doogh is at least a few years old, and the result to merge it under the name Doogh is nowhere to be seen.
A quick Google search gives about 7,840,000 hits for "Ayran", while "Doogh" only gives 267,000. A blatantly clear case per Wikipedia:Article titles. The number of Wikilinks of each article to their corresponding language versions also is in clear favor of Ayran. Someone just arbitrarily moved Ayran to Doogh at some point (without consensus), while it should be clearly the other way round. If there is no well-founded objection I will move the content of Doogh to Ayran. Kind regards. Akocsg ( talk) 01:14, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. The nominator has not substantiated their primary topic argument. I also note that this is not the place to re-hash old discussions, especially ones that are five years old. I recommend a more thorough discussion should take place here about the contents of the article, and whether there are enough differences to warrant two separate articles, or whether this article should be altered. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Steven Crossin Help resolve disputes! 03:01, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Doogh → Ayran – WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; Ayran is the more common and primary name for the product. There was never a consensus to merge it under "Doogh". It was done so arbitrarily without discussion. Here another user taking an older discussion as reference mentioned that is was meant to be merged under Ayran.
Here a consensus was reached to merge it under Ayran, and not the other way around. Akocsg ( talk) 04:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Cengizsogutlu: Please explain here how the addition of 12 pictures of Ayran in this article is relevant. Thanks.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 13:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
First of all thank you for wanting to talk to me. The reason that I put the images for giving extra information like ayran taşı churning stone I thought most people wouldn't understand if I could explain this in only text. Secondly there was a drink that manipulated the subject Armenian style Doogh tan next to Turkish subject, if you are not malicious putting a drink because it looks like to Turkish sytle doogh something nonsensical. It gives me a reason and cause to add pictures. Oky i agree i add many pictures, I realize that I am exaggerating images. I will delete some, however i think some should stay such us ( see my last edit ) churning stone, Ayran Jug Traditional ayran copper cup's and a modern packed ayran. Imagine you bought a ayran from kebab shop and you are interested. Searched on google came to this page huh there is a picture of Armenian Doogh it looks like milk bottle. I wanted to put a picture of a Turkish style Ayran pack that sold in daily fast food resto's. Isn't it strange for you also putting a Armenian Doogh in huge milk bottle next to Turkish sytle? Its like putting Doner Kebab picture next to hamburger yeah you know what it looks like same its also kinda hamburger I just laugh at that, man. Anyway, how about doing it so i delete 80% putting only ayranin a package we're always used to seeing in kebab shops, a tradional copper cup and churning stone what do you think about this version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu ( talk • contribs) 13:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Congratulations, You play the sneaky and stupid role very well. I bet that you guys understand very well what I mean. Dont act like i dont get a word i live in Belgium i have dozens of Farsi friends your language your language is more suitable to understand what I am telling with broken English. Did i do an insult?Nationality or ethnicity? You cannot bear two pictures. You are trying to prove that you are right in your own world with wiki experience.. I simply asked and said why there is another cultures drink phototo next to Turkish version of this drink, I added 3 photos instead of i add 10+. I'm simply saying again I ADD 3 PICTURES NEXT TO TURKISH AYRAN INSTEAD OF OTHER CULTURES DRINK WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? in my opinion its manipulating article putting other cultures version next to it what is your purpose deleting my little edit guys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Okey i agree also mention that i delete 90% its not enough can we add 'SINGLE' picture about ayran? for ex let me add single ayran picture then,so at least one photo about subject can seen. Can you also tell me why there is a photo of Armenian sytle of Doogh next to ayran. I have nothing against Armenians buts its so absurd. Its like for example putting a church photo meaning mosques are like churches you know what no need for mosque photo.. I want this in a civilized way, most likely you hate Turks oky whatever everyone's own life can you add a single picture of Ayran or i will add one ? before finishing what did I insult this time? maybe the lactose ratio of ayran :D? About iranian drink Wouldn't it be nice if we had to separate this page for ex Ayran for hes own page Doogh to another? Some claims persian drink some claim from Hunnic practically its just watery Yogurt drink. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu ( talk • contribs) 21:19, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Ayran. A significant body of evidence has been presented by the nominator that "ayran" is the more common form in English, and it has not been meaningfully refuted (nb Google Ngrams work on English-lanuage corpus). The argument that those are two different drinks was not very convincing, particularly if having in mind that "Ayran" was merged into "Doogh" back in 2016. No such user ( talk) 12:35, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Doogh →
Ayran – As per wikipedia
article naming guidlines(english-language titles) the common English-language name should be used for article titles. As per wikipedia guidelines, nGrams for terms in the english language are a valid way of determining an applicable English-language name.
Google Books' nGram comparison for the terms ayran and doogh (and their spelling variants airan and dugh, respectively) all within English-language texts only (excludes Turkish-language and Farsi-language sources) shows that ayran is 4x more common than Doogh [1].
As per Google search frequency, as of the date of this move request (Dec 5, 2020), the term ayran far outstrips doogh on Google search trends in the United States of America. The average over the last year is 49 for ayran and 12 for doogh. The term دوغ as suggested by another user doesn't even register in search frequency. [2]. When the search trends paramters are expanded to worldwide, interest in the term ayran ranks 71 versus doogh ranking a barely perciptible score of 1. [3]
Further, the Merriam-Webster dictionary has an entry for airan, a variant spelling for ayran [4], and defines it as "[a] drink prepared from fermented milk." The Merriam-Webster dictionary does not contain an entry [5] for doogh or its variant spellings.
The Oxford English Dictionary also has an entry for ayran [6]. It lists it as the Turkish and Arabic names for a yoghurt drink. It notes that it is also known under alternative names like eyran, airan laban, abdogh or dugh. It has a redirect entry of sorts under the term doogh, which tells the user to see ayran [7].
To summarize, as mentioned above, nGram comparison shows ayran should be title for this article given that ayran is four times more commonly found in English-language publications relative to doogh. Common dictionary definitions also hint that the title should be either ayran/airan as per Oxford English Dictionary and Mirriam-Webster, respectively.
I hope changing the article title to the common English langauge name might help make this article far less politicized as well. The current article is in poor shape in my opinion, and lacks objectivity due to its ethnocentric title. Looking for inspiration in non-English wikipedias, one hopes that re-titling it to its English-language name a much more neutral description of the ayran drink can be written: a Middle-Eastern or Central Asian yoghurt-based drink commonly consumed in Iran, Turkey and surrounding areas.
References
– Wikabulary ( talk) 02:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
In short, your argument for moving it is pretty clearly unsound, you'd be better off arguing to split the article in two. -- Qahramani44 ( talk) 08:13, 05 December 2020 (UTC)
References
References
TerranBoy ( talk) 03:55, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Dear users User:Wikaviani, User:Qahramani44 and User:HistoryofIran: Please address my arguments or we will have reached a consensus for Support by default. Neither of you has addressed a single argument I have made. My arguments are entirely based on /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English) and do not depend on Google web search results to determine English language names. My argument is primarily nGram(Wiki requires common name in English RS, and this tool finds the occurences in all published English books and journals!), followed by the two definitive English language dictionaries. Just these two prove that ayran is doubtlessly the correct English languge name for this article. Finally, search interest (not search results) point to ayran overwhelmingly being preferred by English-speaking countries (and indeed, all countries!). The WP guidelines state: "If a particular name is widely used in English-language sources, then that name is generally the most appropriate, no matter what name is used by non-English sources." I can understand that you have a sentimental attachment to your mother language translation of this term, but English Wikipedia is not in the business of changing the English langauge or promoting words from any dialect/language into a new English standard. Wikabulary ( talk) 10:51, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
As per Google nGram (books) and Google Trends methods, see using search engines in Wikipedia: this confirms these methods to be WP standard practice in determining article titles. Wikabulary ( talk) 11:18, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Another point to be made is that at almost all of the 27 citations listed in the article refer to the product as ayran and not doogh. Excluding foreign-language citations, there are just four citations in this article which reference doogh in the English language, one of which is an Iranian-specific cookbook. The rest of the English language citations refer the product as ayran(including all of the introductory paragraph). Wikabulary ( talk) 13:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The arguments of both sides can be seen here. Should the article be titled Ayran or Doogh? Also, please if possible comment on the next section in this talk page as well. TerranBoy ( talk) 23:41, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Support change it into Ayran or make a new page for Ayran. I dont want personelly wikipedia turn into Farsi nationalists playground, with this logic we should call even cigarettes to tobacco, the term "cake" to --> (well it's funny btw =D) KAKA, the word itself is of Viking origin, from the Old Norse word "kaka. What those Persians friends wants, use for ex in place of
cakethe word kaka' cuz of the origin (bruhh). With this logic we must change all food & other stuff in English into original one which is pretty ridiculous for me... I think there must be another page for Ayran it's my own opinion.
Spending too much time here, experimenting with editing and turning everything in their favor for me mean ---> Turning worldwide encyclopedia to own etnic playground.
"i rest my case"
Cengizsogutlu (
talk) 15:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Oppose ayran and doogh are two separate drinks, create an ayran page if you want, but this one should stay. 92.249.30.186 ( talk) 21:39, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Support per wp:commonname-- 85.104.66.147 ( talk) 10:51, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Cengizsogutlu lives in Belgium. My IP address is from Turkey. Are you kidding? -- 85.104.66.147 ( talk) 19:41, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Comment I think the debate should be about "Are Ayran and Doogh same?". Split if Ayran and Doogh are two different drinks. Both can have their own articles just like some other Yogurt-based drinks (see List of yogurt-based dishes and beverages#Beverages, Category:Yogurt-based drinks, and navbox Template:Yogurts). Article Kebab is a good example. A main article, a section and its sub-sections dedicated to national varieties, and List of kebabs. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 05:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
I noticed @ Laval: has undone my edit regarding Ancient Persia meaning ancient Iran. I would like to know on what basis ancient Persia means modern-day Iran and not ancient Iran? Is Roman Empire's heritage also exclusively Italian? Don't Spain, Romania or France have anything to do with ancient Rome? If a = b, then ax = bx. This isn't even a controversial thing. It's logic. Persia is Iran, therefore ancient Persia is ancient Iran. It's common knowledge that Ancient Persia was at least twice the size of modern Persia. Can one say that Kurds in the current geography of Iran drank ayran 1500 years ago but those that are now in Iraq or Turkey didn't? If in an imaginary situation the three Khorasan provinces in modern-day Iran join Afghanistan, will they be striped off of their ayran drinking past in ancient times? TerranBoy ( talk) 17:09, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The discussion in 2020 was about moving the article from a far less common name. That decision did not preclude writing a new culture-specific article. We have plenty of articles about regional varieties of basically the same food, see my favorite dish: List of pancakes :-).- Altenmann >talk 23:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@
Altenmann, there hasn’t been any discussion on splitting/merging in the last 4 years, so I wonder how consensus may be assumed to have changed to the exact contrary without any discussions. Per
WP:CONSENSUS, which you have linked, in most cases, an editor who knows a proposed change will modify a matter resolved by past discussion should propose that change by discussion.
Aintabli (
talk) 23:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
"past discussion"about merging: it was a page move, so you cannot claim that I somehow violated a consensus. To create a new article does not require any consensus, which would be ridiculous. - Altenmann >talk 23:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This user proudly drinks ayran. |
Attention doogh lovers: Use this template to tell everyone how you love doogh!-- Zereshk 10:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused. The article states that doogh is "similar to [..] Ayran, although the latter is not carbonated." Does that mean that doogh is carbonated? While a later section addresses this point, it should really be mentioned sooner. -- Ec5618 19:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Dogh is very common in Afghanistan and common in the western half of Pakistan, and is NEVER carbonated. In the eastern half of Pakistan it turns into lassi and is either sweet or salty, I'm not sure of the difference between salty lassi and traditional dogh, but it tastes very different.
Afghanistani dogh is quote sour, frequently made from sheep/goat milk and is never carbonated or sweetened. I live in the viscinity and have never had sweetened dogh (except in Karachi, southeast Pakistan) or carbonated dogh except in Iran (one sip was quote enough). Dogh however is a daily ration in Balochistan and most of Afghanistan except the most urban areas. It is frequently poured from sheepskin containers carried by shepherds. I suspect an alcoholic content in dogh since it makes you sleepy so fast it knocks a guest out in 5 minutes regardless of nationality or previous exposure to dogh. Its always pronounced dogh in central afghanistan and Balochistan and never doogh. I suspect this is an Iranian pronunciation.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.197.228.3 ( talk) 10:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
dogh is a very popular drink in afghanistan too, and I can't understand why it's not mentioned. also, in afghanistan it can be carbonated, but usually is not, and sometimes its served with cucumber inside.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.244.201 ( talk) 09:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Doogh is and is not carbonated. It depends. As sold in the streets of Iran, they are carbonated. Like Doogh of Abali. But if you step into a good classy restaurant in Iran, or anywhere else, doogh is not carbonated and is homemade.
In homes, people often make and drink the homemade uncarbonated version, unless they buy it from the grocery shop or something.
This also applies to outside Iran. Here in Texas, they sell the carbonated version in "Ali Baba's Mediterranean food store" (the biggest Iranian food store in town). But if you go to "Shiraz Persian Cuisine" restaurant, youll be served the uncarbonated version.-- Zereshk 01:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
it is written that Doogh is naturally carbonated. I think it is not true. in Iran there are bottled doogh which are carbonated but there are also doogh which are not. A home made doogh is is not carbonated. My conclusion is therefore Ayran= Doogh. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting, but in the article doogh, it reads so. Could you make necessary changes in doogh? Thanks. --Chapultepec (talk) 20:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC) I would like to do, but I have not written that there. I just copy and paste our communcations in that page and let's see whether the original author changes it. If not I will edit that page myself. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ayran"
Can somebody please tell me this is the Mastaow in Kurdish language or not? Chaldean 01:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
YES, Its the same. Mastaow and doogh are the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.204.107 ( talk) 18:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
isn't the image in the article with the caption "local doogh of isfahan" picturing "ash-e doogh/mast". it can't be doogh.-- Xashaiar ( talk) 02:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
What about we merge it in Ayran? As it is pointed above, the doogh CAN be carbonated or not, sa can the Ayran. They really ARE the same thing. OR we do something else: We specify under this article the carbonated version, and under Ayran the non carbonated one.
Cheers,
-- Emir Ali Enç ( talk) 00:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
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It's pretty obvious that Ayran is the far more common name than Doogh. The merge should have been to Ayran instead of to this article. Gune ( talk) 01:07, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Jamaas9 ( talk) 22:48, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
@ LouisAragon: Hi, LouisAragon, hope you have been well. Will not revert your edits even though your edit summary doesn't address what I said correctly. Could you please source that doogh came from modern Iran as this the source doesn't say that. Your analysis implies that every cuisine that Iranian nationals eat as native cuisine must have been originally from modern borders of present-day Iran. Using your logic, I could say that a book written about Central Asian history, by definition, makes everything about it exclusively belonging to only Central Asia -- even if there is an indication that this may not be fully the case. My edits implies that it could come from anywhere in Greater Iran due to our shared native Persian heritage, which by definition of "heritage", may include shared native cuisine. We have to write neutrally if we are not sure. Are you 100% (or something close to that effect) sure this must have come from present-day Iran's borders? If so, please provide me a very credible link from a food historian so I may understand our heritage more. Furthermore, do you have clear evidence this food item didn't come from another modern Persian ethnic group such as Tajiks or Tats or even other non-Persian modern and ancient Iranians ethnic groups?
Otherwise, could you provide evidence that everytime a person uses "Ancient Persia" they mean modern Iranian borders vis-a-vis exclusively? I believe that this is technically a POV issue among other thing and at least one that needs a solid citation if I may be able to express my humble opinion to you. Thank you Jamaas9 ( talk) 01:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
article (personally, the article now is balanced enough that it is implictly understood that this is referring to modern day culture of Iranians nationals imho.) Kind regards and thank you for your time. Thanks and kind regards. Jamaas9 ( talk) 23:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Actually the confusion is on your part. Your edit removed (modern day Iran) from:
This sentence makes no comment as to the origin of this drink. Your comment:
Seemingly the same thing. We should either merge these, or create separate articles for the two remaining most popular types of the drink (Doogh and Tan). Personally, I think we should do the latter, as the drinks are quite different from one another. Openlydialectic ( talk) 13:18, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Doogh can be carbonated or non-carbonated. This beverage is also classified as being part of multiple cuisines such as Iranian. -- 207.233.110.67 ( talk) 19:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq:@ Barkeep49:@ Princeofpersia187:@ Lithopsian: It seems the consensus to merge the articles Ayran and Doogh is at least a few years old, and the result to merge it under the name Doogh is nowhere to be seen.
A quick Google search gives about 7,840,000 hits for "Ayran", while "Doogh" only gives 267,000. A blatantly clear case per Wikipedia:Article titles. The number of Wikilinks of each article to their corresponding language versions also is in clear favor of Ayran. Someone just arbitrarily moved Ayran to Doogh at some point (without consensus), while it should be clearly the other way round. If there is no well-founded objection I will move the content of Doogh to Ayran. Kind regards. Akocsg ( talk) 01:14, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. The nominator has not substantiated their primary topic argument. I also note that this is not the place to re-hash old discussions, especially ones that are five years old. I recommend a more thorough discussion should take place here about the contents of the article, and whether there are enough differences to warrant two separate articles, or whether this article should be altered. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Steven Crossin Help resolve disputes! 03:01, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Doogh → Ayran – WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; Ayran is the more common and primary name for the product. There was never a consensus to merge it under "Doogh". It was done so arbitrarily without discussion. Here another user taking an older discussion as reference mentioned that is was meant to be merged under Ayran.
Here a consensus was reached to merge it under Ayran, and not the other way around. Akocsg ( talk) 04:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Cengizsogutlu: Please explain here how the addition of 12 pictures of Ayran in this article is relevant. Thanks.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 13:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
First of all thank you for wanting to talk to me. The reason that I put the images for giving extra information like ayran taşı churning stone I thought most people wouldn't understand if I could explain this in only text. Secondly there was a drink that manipulated the subject Armenian style Doogh tan next to Turkish subject, if you are not malicious putting a drink because it looks like to Turkish sytle doogh something nonsensical. It gives me a reason and cause to add pictures. Oky i agree i add many pictures, I realize that I am exaggerating images. I will delete some, however i think some should stay such us ( see my last edit ) churning stone, Ayran Jug Traditional ayran copper cup's and a modern packed ayran. Imagine you bought a ayran from kebab shop and you are interested. Searched on google came to this page huh there is a picture of Armenian Doogh it looks like milk bottle. I wanted to put a picture of a Turkish style Ayran pack that sold in daily fast food resto's. Isn't it strange for you also putting a Armenian Doogh in huge milk bottle next to Turkish sytle? Its like putting Doner Kebab picture next to hamburger yeah you know what it looks like same its also kinda hamburger I just laugh at that, man. Anyway, how about doing it so i delete 80% putting only ayranin a package we're always used to seeing in kebab shops, a tradional copper cup and churning stone what do you think about this version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu ( talk • contribs) 13:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Congratulations, You play the sneaky and stupid role very well. I bet that you guys understand very well what I mean. Dont act like i dont get a word i live in Belgium i have dozens of Farsi friends your language your language is more suitable to understand what I am telling with broken English. Did i do an insult?Nationality or ethnicity? You cannot bear two pictures. You are trying to prove that you are right in your own world with wiki experience.. I simply asked and said why there is another cultures drink phototo next to Turkish version of this drink, I added 3 photos instead of i add 10+. I'm simply saying again I ADD 3 PICTURES NEXT TO TURKISH AYRAN INSTEAD OF OTHER CULTURES DRINK WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? in my opinion its manipulating article putting other cultures version next to it what is your purpose deleting my little edit guys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Okey i agree also mention that i delete 90% its not enough can we add 'SINGLE' picture about ayran? for ex let me add single ayran picture then,so at least one photo about subject can seen. Can you also tell me why there is a photo of Armenian sytle of Doogh next to ayran. I have nothing against Armenians buts its so absurd. Its like for example putting a church photo meaning mosques are like churches you know what no need for mosque photo.. I want this in a civilized way, most likely you hate Turks oky whatever everyone's own life can you add a single picture of Ayran or i will add one ? before finishing what did I insult this time? maybe the lactose ratio of ayran :D? About iranian drink Wouldn't it be nice if we had to separate this page for ex Ayran for hes own page Doogh to another? Some claims persian drink some claim from Hunnic practically its just watery Yogurt drink. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cengizsogutlu ( talk • contribs) 21:19, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Ayran. A significant body of evidence has been presented by the nominator that "ayran" is the more common form in English, and it has not been meaningfully refuted (nb Google Ngrams work on English-lanuage corpus). The argument that those are two different drinks was not very convincing, particularly if having in mind that "Ayran" was merged into "Doogh" back in 2016. No such user ( talk) 12:35, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Doogh →
Ayran – As per wikipedia
article naming guidlines(english-language titles) the common English-language name should be used for article titles. As per wikipedia guidelines, nGrams for terms in the english language are a valid way of determining an applicable English-language name.
Google Books' nGram comparison for the terms ayran and doogh (and their spelling variants airan and dugh, respectively) all within English-language texts only (excludes Turkish-language and Farsi-language sources) shows that ayran is 4x more common than Doogh [1].
As per Google search frequency, as of the date of this move request (Dec 5, 2020), the term ayran far outstrips doogh on Google search trends in the United States of America. The average over the last year is 49 for ayran and 12 for doogh. The term دوغ as suggested by another user doesn't even register in search frequency. [2]. When the search trends paramters are expanded to worldwide, interest in the term ayran ranks 71 versus doogh ranking a barely perciptible score of 1. [3]
Further, the Merriam-Webster dictionary has an entry for airan, a variant spelling for ayran [4], and defines it as "[a] drink prepared from fermented milk." The Merriam-Webster dictionary does not contain an entry [5] for doogh or its variant spellings.
The Oxford English Dictionary also has an entry for ayran [6]. It lists it as the Turkish and Arabic names for a yoghurt drink. It notes that it is also known under alternative names like eyran, airan laban, abdogh or dugh. It has a redirect entry of sorts under the term doogh, which tells the user to see ayran [7].
To summarize, as mentioned above, nGram comparison shows ayran should be title for this article given that ayran is four times more commonly found in English-language publications relative to doogh. Common dictionary definitions also hint that the title should be either ayran/airan as per Oxford English Dictionary and Mirriam-Webster, respectively.
I hope changing the article title to the common English langauge name might help make this article far less politicized as well. The current article is in poor shape in my opinion, and lacks objectivity due to its ethnocentric title. Looking for inspiration in non-English wikipedias, one hopes that re-titling it to its English-language name a much more neutral description of the ayran drink can be written: a Middle-Eastern or Central Asian yoghurt-based drink commonly consumed in Iran, Turkey and surrounding areas.
References
– Wikabulary ( talk) 02:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
In short, your argument for moving it is pretty clearly unsound, you'd be better off arguing to split the article in two. -- Qahramani44 ( talk) 08:13, 05 December 2020 (UTC)
References
References
TerranBoy ( talk) 03:55, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Dear users User:Wikaviani, User:Qahramani44 and User:HistoryofIran: Please address my arguments or we will have reached a consensus for Support by default. Neither of you has addressed a single argument I have made. My arguments are entirely based on /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English) and do not depend on Google web search results to determine English language names. My argument is primarily nGram(Wiki requires common name in English RS, and this tool finds the occurences in all published English books and journals!), followed by the two definitive English language dictionaries. Just these two prove that ayran is doubtlessly the correct English languge name for this article. Finally, search interest (not search results) point to ayran overwhelmingly being preferred by English-speaking countries (and indeed, all countries!). The WP guidelines state: "If a particular name is widely used in English-language sources, then that name is generally the most appropriate, no matter what name is used by non-English sources." I can understand that you have a sentimental attachment to your mother language translation of this term, but English Wikipedia is not in the business of changing the English langauge or promoting words from any dialect/language into a new English standard. Wikabulary ( talk) 10:51, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
As per Google nGram (books) and Google Trends methods, see using search engines in Wikipedia: this confirms these methods to be WP standard practice in determining article titles. Wikabulary ( talk) 11:18, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Another point to be made is that at almost all of the 27 citations listed in the article refer to the product as ayran and not doogh. Excluding foreign-language citations, there are just four citations in this article which reference doogh in the English language, one of which is an Iranian-specific cookbook. The rest of the English language citations refer the product as ayran(including all of the introductory paragraph). Wikabulary ( talk) 13:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The arguments of both sides can be seen here. Should the article be titled Ayran or Doogh? Also, please if possible comment on the next section in this talk page as well. TerranBoy ( talk) 23:41, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Support change it into Ayran or make a new page for Ayran. I dont want personelly wikipedia turn into Farsi nationalists playground, with this logic we should call even cigarettes to tobacco, the term "cake" to --> (well it's funny btw =D) KAKA, the word itself is of Viking origin, from the Old Norse word "kaka. What those Persians friends wants, use for ex in place of
cakethe word kaka' cuz of the origin (bruhh). With this logic we must change all food & other stuff in English into original one which is pretty ridiculous for me... I think there must be another page for Ayran it's my own opinion.
Spending too much time here, experimenting with editing and turning everything in their favor for me mean ---> Turning worldwide encyclopedia to own etnic playground.
"i rest my case"
Cengizsogutlu (
talk) 15:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Oppose ayran and doogh are two separate drinks, create an ayran page if you want, but this one should stay. 92.249.30.186 ( talk) 21:39, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Support per wp:commonname-- 85.104.66.147 ( talk) 10:51, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Cengizsogutlu lives in Belgium. My IP address is from Turkey. Are you kidding? -- 85.104.66.147 ( talk) 19:41, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Comment I think the debate should be about "Are Ayran and Doogh same?". Split if Ayran and Doogh are two different drinks. Both can have their own articles just like some other Yogurt-based drinks (see List of yogurt-based dishes and beverages#Beverages, Category:Yogurt-based drinks, and navbox Template:Yogurts). Article Kebab is a good example. A main article, a section and its sub-sections dedicated to national varieties, and List of kebabs. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 05:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
I noticed @ Laval: has undone my edit regarding Ancient Persia meaning ancient Iran. I would like to know on what basis ancient Persia means modern-day Iran and not ancient Iran? Is Roman Empire's heritage also exclusively Italian? Don't Spain, Romania or France have anything to do with ancient Rome? If a = b, then ax = bx. This isn't even a controversial thing. It's logic. Persia is Iran, therefore ancient Persia is ancient Iran. It's common knowledge that Ancient Persia was at least twice the size of modern Persia. Can one say that Kurds in the current geography of Iran drank ayran 1500 years ago but those that are now in Iraq or Turkey didn't? If in an imaginary situation the three Khorasan provinces in modern-day Iran join Afghanistan, will they be striped off of their ayran drinking past in ancient times? TerranBoy ( talk) 17:09, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The discussion in 2020 was about moving the article from a far less common name. That decision did not preclude writing a new culture-specific article. We have plenty of articles about regional varieties of basically the same food, see my favorite dish: List of pancakes :-).- Altenmann >talk 23:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@
Altenmann, there hasn’t been any discussion on splitting/merging in the last 4 years, so I wonder how consensus may be assumed to have changed to the exact contrary without any discussions. Per
WP:CONSENSUS, which you have linked, in most cases, an editor who knows a proposed change will modify a matter resolved by past discussion should propose that change by discussion.
Aintabli (
talk) 23:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
"past discussion"about merging: it was a page move, so you cannot claim that I somehow violated a consensus. To create a new article does not require any consensus, which would be ridiculous. - Altenmann >talk 23:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)