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The numbers of individuals in the party changed over time, and those numbers have been altered in this article relative to what was in the version that passed FAC. I have deleted the last round of changing numbers from the lead. Eric Corbett do you still have sources and can you rationalize these numbers? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
In the section Donner_Party#Reed_attempts_a_rescue, there's the sentence: "He [Reed] pleaded with Colonel John C. Frémont to gather a team of men to cross the pass and help the company, in return for which Reed promised he would join Frémont's forces and fight in the Mexican-American War." Other accounts state that Fremont has already left for Santa Barbara by the time Reed got to Sutter's Fort, taking most of the local men with him. That's given as one reason why it took so long to mount a rescue expedition. If someone has the Kristin Johnson book (or a detailed Fremont bio), could you check that? WCCasey ( talk) 23:05, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Donner_Party
In paragraph:
Disintegration.
Line:
The family had eaten all their stores, but the other families refused to assist their children.
Issue:
Use of but.
The family had eaten all their stores and the other families refused to assist their children.
Trouts2 (
talk)
11:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
The article does not seem to indicate that any members of the party kept a journal. So where did Stewart and Rarick's source material come from?
Rationalobserver (
talk) 16:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC) I se now that Breen kept a diary, but his account is not used as a source in this article.
Rationalobserver (
talk)
19:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, it seems that Rarick's book similar to the Waters' work. Can you please explain why one is forbidden and the other acceptable? Rationalobserver ( talk) 17:27, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The first note, chapter 1, reveals that Rarick has reconstructed dialogue and settings. This should not be swept under the rug until it's resolved. That reviews are published in reliable sources does not guarantee the book does not contain reconstructed "scenes" as Rarick calls them: "scene around Tamzene: She does not describe the scene around her in great detail. The portrait here is based on various emigrant accounts." Rarick here is explaining that he has reconstructed the scene using generic emigrant accounts not related to the Donner Party. Rationalobserver ( talk) 17:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Per Rarick (in author's notes): "In places, I have relied on reasonable and obvious speculation to flesh out the narrative. Some things can be assumed. Parents fret about the safety of their children. Little girls smooth the dresses of their dolls. People wave farewell. At other points, I have relied on my own observations or experiences. During my research, I traveled the route of the Donner Party, and often one can still see today what one would have seen then: the heft of Independence Rock looming in the distance, the flat crawl of the Humboldt River across Nevada, the intimidating eastern face of the Sierra. I drew on personal experiences in other ways". Rationalobserver ( talk) 17:52, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Rarick's notes can be seen here, and a quick glance shows that much of this "account" is actually taken from stories about emigrants in general, and not the Donner Party; e.g., Chapter 13, note 7 reveals that the description of the storm is not based on Donner Party accounts, but it's rather a generic and fictionalized telling of what it might have been like. Chapter 15, note 124 reveals that his description of the Donner Party's starvation is based not on accounts from the Donner Party, but on a University of Minnesota study and reports of the conditions in the Warsaw Ghetto during WWII, i.e.; it's a fictionalized. Rationalobserver ( talk) 18:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
rationalobserver. I have, in good faith, replied to the comments that you have made about this article. They are all baseless, as you have been told by neutral parties (including jbmurray, who is a university professor). You have accused us of falsifying sources (and then retracted that accusation) and have demonstrated an appalling lack of understanding of how to examine the reliability of a source, how to properly summarize information, and what is appropriate to source from a given text. This article has been through the combined scrutiny of 3 prolific FA writers (and if I don't know how to evaluate a source by now, someone needs to ban me) and a multitude of FA reviewers who have looked at the very things you've brought up. For you to throw all of this on the talk page today is a quite blatant exercise in WP:POINT. It's time to stop, or I will be filing a notice at WP:ANI. If you find an actual valid point (there have been changes since the FAC, and you fixed one wording error yesterday), I'll be happy to address that, but I don't intend to waste any more of my time today with what is either an attempt to prove someone else (SV?) wrong or an attempt to make Eric Corbett look bad. Karanacs ( talk) 20:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted this change: (fix; migrants → emigrants; ce migrants → several members of the party) I would not call this a "fix" so much as a preference. IMO, when it comes to a GA editors have no business changing the work of others just because they prefer something to fit their particular style. I find migrant more accurate than the more often used word emigrants, which better describes one who has traveled from a different country. Gandydancer ( talk) 11:04, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Or maybe not? Per WP: Emigration is the act of leaving one's native country with the intent to settle elsewhere.[1] Conversely, immigration describes the movement of persons into one country from another.[2] Both are acts of migration across national boundaries. Gandydancer ( talk) 11:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I think dictionary definitions are in order here.
It was fine as it was. J3Mrs ( talk) 17:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello there,
The summary mentions that the journey west usually takes 5-6 months (and then the main text states 4-6 months) and that the Donner Party was delayed, hinting that the delay was considerable but not indicating how bad the initial delay was. The summary just goes on to state that it was November by the time they reached the Sierra Nevada. When do most wagon parties generally reach it? September? August? October? June? How many months behind were they? I do feel that if you're going to bring up the delay in the summary, you should probably not leave it this vague.
Additionally, did I miss something in this mess of text or does Mr. Wolfinger's story go from "Two young single men named Spitzer and Reinhardt traveled with another German couple, the Wolfingers..." to "...Joseph Reinhardt, confessed on his death bed that he had murdered Wolfinger" with no mention of just what the hell happened? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.38.6 ( talk) 21:26, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
"Of the 87 members of the party, 48 survived..." "Of the 87 people who entered the Wasatch Mountains, 48 survived." Can YOU spot the difference? (but seriously, folks, do the people who died before that point just not count as members of the party? Is it saying that the Luis and Salvador aren't people?)
Also, I left this over at the timeline article too, but maybe editors here can sort it out instead:
"I think there might be some sort of screw up, either here or at the "Donner Party" article, regarding the timing of Lemuel Murphy's death and the timing of the cannibalism:
December 25, 1846: ...At "Camp of Death" Patrick Dolan and young Lemuel Murphy die.
December 26, 1846: The snowshoers resort to cannibalism, "averting their faces from one another and weeping."
Versus
As the blizzard progressed, Patrick Dolan began to rant deliriously, stripped off his clothes and ran into the woods. He returned shortly afterwards and died a few hours later. Not long after, possibly because 12-year-old Lemuel Murphy was near death, some of the group began to eat flesh from Dolan's body. Lemuel's sister tried to feed some to her brother, but he died shortly afterwards." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.38.6 ( talk) 16:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Kindly do this lowly anonymous editor a favour and explain what the problem is with the sentence 'The "shortcut" had added 150 miles (240 km) to their travels and probably delayed them by a month'? If it is the accuracy of the information, then I suggest you change or remove the caption as well. Or is there a rule about repeating information from captions in the main text? Is it the quotation marks, which could have easily been removed without changing the rest of the sentence? Did I make a mistake and the "shortcut" under discussion is not actually the Hastings Cutoff? No one deigned to explain in the edit summaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.38.6 ( talk) 22:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
And on that note, the Citations section seems a bit strange to me. For example, even though it appears to be the first time the source is referenced, citation #2 doesn't have a lot of detail "(McGlashan, p. 16; Stewart, p. 271.)". I would have expected the first occurrence to be more like #1 (McGlashan, Charles Fayette (1907). History of the Donner Party: A Tragedy of the Sierra. H. S. Crocker. p. 158.) Is that intentional or just the result of citations being added/removed/shifted around over the years? If it is intentional, could someone link me to an explanation for it because damned if I could find any guidance on the subject from checking Wikipedia's help pages.
I think Familes runs afoul of WP:SUMMARY. Also, Rarick states that "19th century ages are notoriously imprecise".(note 118) Rationalobserver ( talk) 18:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Any objection to adding this book as further reading? It appears to have won the California Historical Society Award of Merit, 1994: Winter of Entrapment: A New Look at the Donner Party by Joseph A. King, 1992 (Toronto: P.D. Meany Publishers), revised edition 1994 (Lafayette, CA: K&K Publications). ISBN: 0-9608500-4-X Jodi.a.schneider ( talk) 01:34, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I see one editor is averse to making changes. While I applaud efforts to ensure the article's quality, I caution against reverting or objecting to changes that actually improve quality. For example, if you'll note the recent reversions to my changes, you'll see the editor who made the reversions is unaware of (at least in this instance) of the value of correctly placing modifiers or of using transition(al) terms. Additionally, the same editor earlier removed changes I'd made for the sake of consistency with how ages and numbers are written throughout this article, related articles, and most modern writing (i.e., writing as numbers, rather than words, ages and numbers 10 or greater, except in specific instances, e.g., year 2016). It's inappropriate to impose one's personal style on the article merely for preference's sake and wholly inappropriate to protect the status quo against improvements that are justifiable and add value. Froid ( talk) 02:53, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
I am not an editor of Wikis but I have been researching the Donner Party and should mention here that there is no archaeological evidence of Cannibalism at either campsite at Alder Creek nor at the Cabins. Research done in the 1990s by Hardesty et al. and early 2000s by Dixon et al. show that faunal remains collected at Alder Creek show no evidence of humans being consumed at the hearths. Likewise, the two human bone fragments found at the Murphy Cabin in the 1990s showed no evidence of being burned, boiled or cut. It is possible that that the bodies could have been processed elsewhere, however, no human remains have been located yet by archaeologists.
Other details that need to be corrected include that Snyder was murdered by Reed who was banished by the Donner Party group prior to using the Hastings Cutoff. He was the reason why the group had so many rescue efforts made, as he had been forced to leave his family behind when he was banished from the group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.212.218.151 ( talk) 14:31, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
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The article mentions the death of Mr Wolfinger in passing a couple of times, once when discussing Reinhardt's confession and once near the end when listing the dead, but doesn't actually say when or how he died (other than "trauma"). Anybody know? Gazeboist ( talk) 10:02, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I know that American is a different language but
Emigration to the west decreased over the following years, but it is likely that the drop in numbers was caused more by fears over the outcome of the ongoing Mexican-American War than by the cautionary tale of the Donner Party.
how can you support this wording? The sentence mixes tenses for a start. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 19:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Emigration to the west decreased over the following years; uncertainty caused by the Mexican-American War (1846–1848) might have had more effect than the fate of the Donner Party.
Keith-264 ( talk) 20:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Keith-264 ( talk) 21:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)Emigration to the west decreased over the following years but the uncertainty caused by the Mexican-American War (1846–1848) and its aftermath, might have had more effect
on emigrationthan the fate of the Donner Party.
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"To promote his new route, Lansford W. Hastings sent riders to deliver letters to traveling emigrants. On July 12, the Reeds and Donners were given one of them.[27] Hastings warned the emigrants they could expect opposition from the Mexican authorities in California, and advised them to band together in large groups. He also claimed to have "worked out a new and better road to California", and said he would be waiting at Fort Bridger to guide the emigrants along the new cutoff."
Did Hastings benefit financially from the use of his route (I assume that's why he was promoting it - or was it pure altruism?) If he did benefit financially, how? Tolls? Charging people to show them the way? Deals with store owners on the route? Other ways?
86.166.216.28 ( talk) 09:44, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
In the main menu the article has a very screwy short descriptor. The actual article doesn't show the odd text. UrbanCyborg ( talk) 02:20, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
It appears to have somehow been fixed, so I can't access the original text I saw. It was truly squirrelly, though. Sorry to have instigated a snipe hunt inadvertently. UrbanCyborg ( talk) 10:45, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
The article refers to people traveling westward as "emigrants". I think this should be changed to migrants or settlers; as "emigrants" refers to people who migrate out of a country while the use here refers to people traveling entirely within the United States. 98.179.184.17 ( talk) 13:16, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
The McGlashan book is online here: https://books.google.com/books?id=8WwUAAAAYAAJ Seems a better one to use than the one that must be downloaded to refer to it. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 13:06, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
The 'Families' section describes both daughters of Levinah Murphy as being married to men named "William M." Is this an error, or did both men happen to have the same middle initial? I can't figure it out from the sources available online. If the second, the men's full middle names should probably be written out.
Gazeboist ( talk) 13:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Patrick Breen, an original participant of the Donner-Reed Party, was 51 years of age at the start of his and his family's journey. Patrick survived, as did the entire Breen family. Therefore, the sentence later in this same "Donner Party" Wikipedia entry that begins with "No adults over the age of 49 survived..." is contradictory/inaccurate. MLOestreich ( talk) 05:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
[Edit March 29, 2021 to undo the edit which removed the entire paragraph with this reference to George Yount's dream. Dana's Journal is even more explicit that 'Twenty-Four Years Later' in his description of Yount's account of the dream, devoting several pages to the conversation. Yount's dream is part of his legacy and California history. Why would this event be removed? The historical references are reliable and online. [Edit February 19, 2021 to move this section about Yount's dream to the 'Second relief' section and revise the entry to present the facts as reflected in the sources. I think this addition might help people who, like me, stumble upon Dana's claim about a miraculous dream and want to know more about it. An examination of news reports on the dream seems to be warranted, since Dana refers to it as 'celebrated'. This means it was in the national narrative in a significant way, at least for him. Maybe he had read Bushnell's book on the voyage back to California.] [Edit February 17 2021 to present the historical evidence as evenly as I could. I think the evangelical pressure might be highlighted. I think that this event probably scared the sh-t out of people and they really wanted to know that God would never abandon them. This is in the earliest days of an 'internet': wire communication coast to coast, a daily national narrative.] I noticed a reference in Richard H. Dana. Jr's 'Twenty-Four Years Later' (p. 48) to a "John Yount" recounting a 'thrice-repeated' dream that led to the rescue of the Donner Party in 1847. My edits to the wiki entries for 'Donner Party' and 'George C. Yount' reflect research I have done on this subject. I believe Dana either misrecalled Yount's name or Yount was called "John". Ivartshiva ( talk) 13:33, 13 January 2021 (UTC) comment added by Ivartshiva ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
The article has BOTH of Levinah Murphy's daughters marrying men named "William M.". Now, just how LIKELY is that? CFLeon ( talk) 19:40, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
The introduction references the survivors reaching California and the rescuers coming from Califonia. The Donner campsite is in California.
This seems credible and relevant.
"Until now the Native American perspective has been left out of the telling of the Donner tragedy, not because the wel mel ti did not remember the pioneers, but because they were never asked, or perhaps were not ready to share. Their oral tradition recalls the starving strangers who camped in an area that was unsuitable for that time of year. Taking pity on the pioneers, the northern Washoe attempted to feed them, leaving rabbit meat and wild potatoes near the camps. Another account states that they tried to bring the Donner Party a deer carcass, but were shot at as they approached. Later, some wel mel ti observed the migrants eating human remains. Fearing for their lives, the area's native inhabitants continued to watch the strangers but avoided further contact. These stories, and the archaeological evidence that appears to support them, certainly complicated my interpretation of the Donner Party event. The migrants at Alder Creek were not surviving in the mountains alone—the northern Washoe were there, and they had tried to help."
https://archive.archaeology.org/1205/letter/donner_party_alder_creek_washoe.html
Orchidnecromancer ( talk) 10:51, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
This appears to be an article by U.Oregon archaeologist J. Schablitsky, published in Archaeology (magazine) Volume 65 Number 3, May/June 2012. The archaeological expedition appears to have unearthed many bone fragments:
"Back at the laboratory, with his collection of comparative bone samples at hand, Tasa listed the cuisine on the Donner Party desperation menu: small rodent, rabbit-sized animal, canine, cow, and deer. But no human."
"Using an optical microscope to observe osteons, or the fundamental structural units of bone, Schug found 85 bone fragments that belonged to cow, deer, horse, and dog. But again, there were no human bones. This, of course, does not mean that the Donners did not practice cannibalism."
"Although the absence of identifiable human bone was an interesting problem, I was much more intrigued by what we did find: None of the survivor accounts from Alder Creek mention successfully hunting and killing rabbit or deer. We also found lead shot and sprue from lead casting, suggesting the pioneers had attempted to make ammunition for their guns. Perhaps one of the Donner Party members or rescuers had been successful at hunting wild game. But if the Donners found themselves too weak to hunt in the deep snow, or their aim was off, how could they have ended up eating these animals?"
Where in the article should this important archeological research finding be added? Mang ( talk) 14:59, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The numbers of individuals in the party changed over time, and those numbers have been altered in this article relative to what was in the version that passed FAC. I have deleted the last round of changing numbers from the lead. Eric Corbett do you still have sources and can you rationalize these numbers? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
In the section Donner_Party#Reed_attempts_a_rescue, there's the sentence: "He [Reed] pleaded with Colonel John C. Frémont to gather a team of men to cross the pass and help the company, in return for which Reed promised he would join Frémont's forces and fight in the Mexican-American War." Other accounts state that Fremont has already left for Santa Barbara by the time Reed got to Sutter's Fort, taking most of the local men with him. That's given as one reason why it took so long to mount a rescue expedition. If someone has the Kristin Johnson book (or a detailed Fremont bio), could you check that? WCCasey ( talk) 23:05, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Donner_Party
In paragraph:
Disintegration.
Line:
The family had eaten all their stores, but the other families refused to assist their children.
Issue:
Use of but.
The family had eaten all their stores and the other families refused to assist their children.
Trouts2 (
talk)
11:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
The article does not seem to indicate that any members of the party kept a journal. So where did Stewart and Rarick's source material come from?
Rationalobserver (
talk) 16:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC) I se now that Breen kept a diary, but his account is not used as a source in this article.
Rationalobserver (
talk)
19:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, it seems that Rarick's book similar to the Waters' work. Can you please explain why one is forbidden and the other acceptable? Rationalobserver ( talk) 17:27, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The first note, chapter 1, reveals that Rarick has reconstructed dialogue and settings. This should not be swept under the rug until it's resolved. That reviews are published in reliable sources does not guarantee the book does not contain reconstructed "scenes" as Rarick calls them: "scene around Tamzene: She does not describe the scene around her in great detail. The portrait here is based on various emigrant accounts." Rarick here is explaining that he has reconstructed the scene using generic emigrant accounts not related to the Donner Party. Rationalobserver ( talk) 17:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Per Rarick (in author's notes): "In places, I have relied on reasonable and obvious speculation to flesh out the narrative. Some things can be assumed. Parents fret about the safety of their children. Little girls smooth the dresses of their dolls. People wave farewell. At other points, I have relied on my own observations or experiences. During my research, I traveled the route of the Donner Party, and often one can still see today what one would have seen then: the heft of Independence Rock looming in the distance, the flat crawl of the Humboldt River across Nevada, the intimidating eastern face of the Sierra. I drew on personal experiences in other ways". Rationalobserver ( talk) 17:52, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Rarick's notes can be seen here, and a quick glance shows that much of this "account" is actually taken from stories about emigrants in general, and not the Donner Party; e.g., Chapter 13, note 7 reveals that the description of the storm is not based on Donner Party accounts, but it's rather a generic and fictionalized telling of what it might have been like. Chapter 15, note 124 reveals that his description of the Donner Party's starvation is based not on accounts from the Donner Party, but on a University of Minnesota study and reports of the conditions in the Warsaw Ghetto during WWII, i.e.; it's a fictionalized. Rationalobserver ( talk) 18:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
rationalobserver. I have, in good faith, replied to the comments that you have made about this article. They are all baseless, as you have been told by neutral parties (including jbmurray, who is a university professor). You have accused us of falsifying sources (and then retracted that accusation) and have demonstrated an appalling lack of understanding of how to examine the reliability of a source, how to properly summarize information, and what is appropriate to source from a given text. This article has been through the combined scrutiny of 3 prolific FA writers (and if I don't know how to evaluate a source by now, someone needs to ban me) and a multitude of FA reviewers who have looked at the very things you've brought up. For you to throw all of this on the talk page today is a quite blatant exercise in WP:POINT. It's time to stop, or I will be filing a notice at WP:ANI. If you find an actual valid point (there have been changes since the FAC, and you fixed one wording error yesterday), I'll be happy to address that, but I don't intend to waste any more of my time today with what is either an attempt to prove someone else (SV?) wrong or an attempt to make Eric Corbett look bad. Karanacs ( talk) 20:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted this change: (fix; migrants → emigrants; ce migrants → several members of the party) I would not call this a "fix" so much as a preference. IMO, when it comes to a GA editors have no business changing the work of others just because they prefer something to fit their particular style. I find migrant more accurate than the more often used word emigrants, which better describes one who has traveled from a different country. Gandydancer ( talk) 11:04, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Or maybe not? Per WP: Emigration is the act of leaving one's native country with the intent to settle elsewhere.[1] Conversely, immigration describes the movement of persons into one country from another.[2] Both are acts of migration across national boundaries. Gandydancer ( talk) 11:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I think dictionary definitions are in order here.
It was fine as it was. J3Mrs ( talk) 17:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello there,
The summary mentions that the journey west usually takes 5-6 months (and then the main text states 4-6 months) and that the Donner Party was delayed, hinting that the delay was considerable but not indicating how bad the initial delay was. The summary just goes on to state that it was November by the time they reached the Sierra Nevada. When do most wagon parties generally reach it? September? August? October? June? How many months behind were they? I do feel that if you're going to bring up the delay in the summary, you should probably not leave it this vague.
Additionally, did I miss something in this mess of text or does Mr. Wolfinger's story go from "Two young single men named Spitzer and Reinhardt traveled with another German couple, the Wolfingers..." to "...Joseph Reinhardt, confessed on his death bed that he had murdered Wolfinger" with no mention of just what the hell happened? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.38.6 ( talk) 21:26, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
"Of the 87 members of the party, 48 survived..." "Of the 87 people who entered the Wasatch Mountains, 48 survived." Can YOU spot the difference? (but seriously, folks, do the people who died before that point just not count as members of the party? Is it saying that the Luis and Salvador aren't people?)
Also, I left this over at the timeline article too, but maybe editors here can sort it out instead:
"I think there might be some sort of screw up, either here or at the "Donner Party" article, regarding the timing of Lemuel Murphy's death and the timing of the cannibalism:
December 25, 1846: ...At "Camp of Death" Patrick Dolan and young Lemuel Murphy die.
December 26, 1846: The snowshoers resort to cannibalism, "averting their faces from one another and weeping."
Versus
As the blizzard progressed, Patrick Dolan began to rant deliriously, stripped off his clothes and ran into the woods. He returned shortly afterwards and died a few hours later. Not long after, possibly because 12-year-old Lemuel Murphy was near death, some of the group began to eat flesh from Dolan's body. Lemuel's sister tried to feed some to her brother, but he died shortly afterwards." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.38.6 ( talk) 16:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Kindly do this lowly anonymous editor a favour and explain what the problem is with the sentence 'The "shortcut" had added 150 miles (240 km) to their travels and probably delayed them by a month'? If it is the accuracy of the information, then I suggest you change or remove the caption as well. Or is there a rule about repeating information from captions in the main text? Is it the quotation marks, which could have easily been removed without changing the rest of the sentence? Did I make a mistake and the "shortcut" under discussion is not actually the Hastings Cutoff? No one deigned to explain in the edit summaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.38.6 ( talk) 22:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
And on that note, the Citations section seems a bit strange to me. For example, even though it appears to be the first time the source is referenced, citation #2 doesn't have a lot of detail "(McGlashan, p. 16; Stewart, p. 271.)". I would have expected the first occurrence to be more like #1 (McGlashan, Charles Fayette (1907). History of the Donner Party: A Tragedy of the Sierra. H. S. Crocker. p. 158.) Is that intentional or just the result of citations being added/removed/shifted around over the years? If it is intentional, could someone link me to an explanation for it because damned if I could find any guidance on the subject from checking Wikipedia's help pages.
I think Familes runs afoul of WP:SUMMARY. Also, Rarick states that "19th century ages are notoriously imprecise".(note 118) Rationalobserver ( talk) 18:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Any objection to adding this book as further reading? It appears to have won the California Historical Society Award of Merit, 1994: Winter of Entrapment: A New Look at the Donner Party by Joseph A. King, 1992 (Toronto: P.D. Meany Publishers), revised edition 1994 (Lafayette, CA: K&K Publications). ISBN: 0-9608500-4-X Jodi.a.schneider ( talk) 01:34, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I see one editor is averse to making changes. While I applaud efforts to ensure the article's quality, I caution against reverting or objecting to changes that actually improve quality. For example, if you'll note the recent reversions to my changes, you'll see the editor who made the reversions is unaware of (at least in this instance) of the value of correctly placing modifiers or of using transition(al) terms. Additionally, the same editor earlier removed changes I'd made for the sake of consistency with how ages and numbers are written throughout this article, related articles, and most modern writing (i.e., writing as numbers, rather than words, ages and numbers 10 or greater, except in specific instances, e.g., year 2016). It's inappropriate to impose one's personal style on the article merely for preference's sake and wholly inappropriate to protect the status quo against improvements that are justifiable and add value. Froid ( talk) 02:53, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
I am not an editor of Wikis but I have been researching the Donner Party and should mention here that there is no archaeological evidence of Cannibalism at either campsite at Alder Creek nor at the Cabins. Research done in the 1990s by Hardesty et al. and early 2000s by Dixon et al. show that faunal remains collected at Alder Creek show no evidence of humans being consumed at the hearths. Likewise, the two human bone fragments found at the Murphy Cabin in the 1990s showed no evidence of being burned, boiled or cut. It is possible that that the bodies could have been processed elsewhere, however, no human remains have been located yet by archaeologists.
Other details that need to be corrected include that Snyder was murdered by Reed who was banished by the Donner Party group prior to using the Hastings Cutoff. He was the reason why the group had so many rescue efforts made, as he had been forced to leave his family behind when he was banished from the group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.212.218.151 ( talk) 14:31, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
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The article mentions the death of Mr Wolfinger in passing a couple of times, once when discussing Reinhardt's confession and once near the end when listing the dead, but doesn't actually say when or how he died (other than "trauma"). Anybody know? Gazeboist ( talk) 10:02, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I know that American is a different language but
Emigration to the west decreased over the following years, but it is likely that the drop in numbers was caused more by fears over the outcome of the ongoing Mexican-American War than by the cautionary tale of the Donner Party.
how can you support this wording? The sentence mixes tenses for a start. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 19:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Emigration to the west decreased over the following years; uncertainty caused by the Mexican-American War (1846–1848) might have had more effect than the fate of the Donner Party.
Keith-264 ( talk) 20:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Keith-264 ( talk) 21:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)Emigration to the west decreased over the following years but the uncertainty caused by the Mexican-American War (1846–1848) and its aftermath, might have had more effect
on emigrationthan the fate of the Donner Party.
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"To promote his new route, Lansford W. Hastings sent riders to deliver letters to traveling emigrants. On July 12, the Reeds and Donners were given one of them.[27] Hastings warned the emigrants they could expect opposition from the Mexican authorities in California, and advised them to band together in large groups. He also claimed to have "worked out a new and better road to California", and said he would be waiting at Fort Bridger to guide the emigrants along the new cutoff."
Did Hastings benefit financially from the use of his route (I assume that's why he was promoting it - or was it pure altruism?) If he did benefit financially, how? Tolls? Charging people to show them the way? Deals with store owners on the route? Other ways?
86.166.216.28 ( talk) 09:44, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
In the main menu the article has a very screwy short descriptor. The actual article doesn't show the odd text. UrbanCyborg ( talk) 02:20, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
It appears to have somehow been fixed, so I can't access the original text I saw. It was truly squirrelly, though. Sorry to have instigated a snipe hunt inadvertently. UrbanCyborg ( talk) 10:45, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
The article refers to people traveling westward as "emigrants". I think this should be changed to migrants or settlers; as "emigrants" refers to people who migrate out of a country while the use here refers to people traveling entirely within the United States. 98.179.184.17 ( talk) 13:16, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
The McGlashan book is online here: https://books.google.com/books?id=8WwUAAAAYAAJ Seems a better one to use than the one that must be downloaded to refer to it. Lynn (SLW) ( talk) 13:06, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
The 'Families' section describes both daughters of Levinah Murphy as being married to men named "William M." Is this an error, or did both men happen to have the same middle initial? I can't figure it out from the sources available online. If the second, the men's full middle names should probably be written out.
Gazeboist ( talk) 13:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Patrick Breen, an original participant of the Donner-Reed Party, was 51 years of age at the start of his and his family's journey. Patrick survived, as did the entire Breen family. Therefore, the sentence later in this same "Donner Party" Wikipedia entry that begins with "No adults over the age of 49 survived..." is contradictory/inaccurate. MLOestreich ( talk) 05:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
[Edit March 29, 2021 to undo the edit which removed the entire paragraph with this reference to George Yount's dream. Dana's Journal is even more explicit that 'Twenty-Four Years Later' in his description of Yount's account of the dream, devoting several pages to the conversation. Yount's dream is part of his legacy and California history. Why would this event be removed? The historical references are reliable and online. [Edit February 19, 2021 to move this section about Yount's dream to the 'Second relief' section and revise the entry to present the facts as reflected in the sources. I think this addition might help people who, like me, stumble upon Dana's claim about a miraculous dream and want to know more about it. An examination of news reports on the dream seems to be warranted, since Dana refers to it as 'celebrated'. This means it was in the national narrative in a significant way, at least for him. Maybe he had read Bushnell's book on the voyage back to California.] [Edit February 17 2021 to present the historical evidence as evenly as I could. I think the evangelical pressure might be highlighted. I think that this event probably scared the sh-t out of people and they really wanted to know that God would never abandon them. This is in the earliest days of an 'internet': wire communication coast to coast, a daily national narrative.] I noticed a reference in Richard H. Dana. Jr's 'Twenty-Four Years Later' (p. 48) to a "John Yount" recounting a 'thrice-repeated' dream that led to the rescue of the Donner Party in 1847. My edits to the wiki entries for 'Donner Party' and 'George C. Yount' reflect research I have done on this subject. I believe Dana either misrecalled Yount's name or Yount was called "John". Ivartshiva ( talk) 13:33, 13 January 2021 (UTC) comment added by Ivartshiva ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
The article has BOTH of Levinah Murphy's daughters marrying men named "William M.". Now, just how LIKELY is that? CFLeon ( talk) 19:40, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
The introduction references the survivors reaching California and the rescuers coming from Califonia. The Donner campsite is in California.
This seems credible and relevant.
"Until now the Native American perspective has been left out of the telling of the Donner tragedy, not because the wel mel ti did not remember the pioneers, but because they were never asked, or perhaps were not ready to share. Their oral tradition recalls the starving strangers who camped in an area that was unsuitable for that time of year. Taking pity on the pioneers, the northern Washoe attempted to feed them, leaving rabbit meat and wild potatoes near the camps. Another account states that they tried to bring the Donner Party a deer carcass, but were shot at as they approached. Later, some wel mel ti observed the migrants eating human remains. Fearing for their lives, the area's native inhabitants continued to watch the strangers but avoided further contact. These stories, and the archaeological evidence that appears to support them, certainly complicated my interpretation of the Donner Party event. The migrants at Alder Creek were not surviving in the mountains alone—the northern Washoe were there, and they had tried to help."
https://archive.archaeology.org/1205/letter/donner_party_alder_creek_washoe.html
Orchidnecromancer ( talk) 10:51, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
This appears to be an article by U.Oregon archaeologist J. Schablitsky, published in Archaeology (magazine) Volume 65 Number 3, May/June 2012. The archaeological expedition appears to have unearthed many bone fragments:
"Back at the laboratory, with his collection of comparative bone samples at hand, Tasa listed the cuisine on the Donner Party desperation menu: small rodent, rabbit-sized animal, canine, cow, and deer. But no human."
"Using an optical microscope to observe osteons, or the fundamental structural units of bone, Schug found 85 bone fragments that belonged to cow, deer, horse, and dog. But again, there were no human bones. This, of course, does not mean that the Donners did not practice cannibalism."
"Although the absence of identifiable human bone was an interesting problem, I was much more intrigued by what we did find: None of the survivor accounts from Alder Creek mention successfully hunting and killing rabbit or deer. We also found lead shot and sprue from lead casting, suggesting the pioneers had attempted to make ammunition for their guns. Perhaps one of the Donner Party members or rescuers had been successful at hunting wild game. But if the Donners found themselves too weak to hunt in the deep snow, or their aim was off, how could they have ended up eating these animals?"
Where in the article should this important archeological research finding be added? Mang ( talk) 14:59, 20 July 2019 (UTC)