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Recent edits have changed the description of Don Giovanni's treatment of Donna Anna in the first scene from "seduced" to " raped", back to " seduced" (with an unkind edit summary) and then to " raped" again. There's plenty of literature about the character of Donna Anna: whether she was indeed raped or whether she was a willing participant in the clandestine liaison. Neither text nor music of the opera give an unambiguous explanation. On balance, it seems to me that te characterisation of "rape" has a whiff of a modern reading about it and seems somewhat anachronistic. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 12:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
References
I support User:Michael Bednareks reversion of the info box up top for precisely the reason which he stated: "partly undid revision 638979534 by Meister und Margarita (talk): article needs a navigation box for WAM's operas."
With only an info box and no navigation box, we lack a direct link to other operas by this composer. That's why there have been changes on many other composers' articles (e.g. Verdi has an image of Verdi up top and a nav box down below).
Now, as I've expressed before (and have set up for many of the Bellini articles, for example), I am not opposed to info boxes per se, but we can't have one without the other.
Maybe we can prevail on someone to add to the Mozart nav box.....?? All the best for 2015, Viva-Verdi ( talk) 23:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, as far as an info box pic is concerned, either one of the following would work, although I do like the Mario one. Both are on Commons. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 20:24, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
The scene numbering in the article is inconsistent with the score, both at NMA and at Naxos. Here's a rough-and-ready cut/pase from the libretto at Naxos:
Act 1
Scena I
Davanti la casa di Donn’Anna.
Scena II
Scena III
Entrano Donn’Anna e Don Ottavio, con servi che portano diversi lumi.
Scena IV
Una strada. Notte.
Scena V
Scena VI
Scena VII
Zerlina e Masetto entrano con un gruppo di contadini e
contadine, ballando e ridendo.
Scena VIII
Don Giovanni e Leporello appaiono e stanno da parte.
Scena IX
Scena X
I suddetti e Donna Elvira, che ferma con atti disperatissimi Don Giovanni.
Scena XI
Scena XII
Scena XIII
Scena XIV
Scena XV
Scena XVI
Giardino di Don Giovanni con due porte chiuse a chiave per di fuori
Scena XVII
Masetto entra nella nicchia; appare Don Giovanni con quattro servi nobilmente vestiti.
Scena XVIII
Scena XIX
Don Ottavio, Donna Anna e Donna Elvira entrano in maschera.
Scena XX
Sala illuminata e preparata per un gran festa di ballo (Presenti Don Giovanni, Leporello, Zerlina, Masetto, contadine e contadini.Don Giovanni fa seder le ragazze e Leporello i ragazzi in atto di aver finito un ballo.)
Act 2
Scena I
Strada
Scena II
Scena III
Scena IV
Entra Masetto armato d’archibuso e pistola, e dei contadini.
Scena V
(Ritorna in scena Don Giovanni, conducendo seco per la mano Masetto.)
Scena VI
Scena VII
Atrio terreno oscuro con tre porte in casa di Donna Anna.
Scena VIII
Scena IX
Scena X
Scena XI
Loco chiuso in forma di sepolcreto. Diverse statue equestri fra cui la statua del Commendatore Recitativo Don Giovanni (entrando pel muretto, ridendo)
Scena XII
Camera tetra in casa di Donna Anna
Scena XIII
Sala in casa di Don Giovanni; una mensa preparata per mangiare; alcuni suonatori in disparte.
Scena XIV
Scena XV
Scena Ultima
Donna Elvira, Donna Anna, Don Ottavio, Zerlina e Masetto entrano con ministri di giustizia.
I don't think it would be helpful to break the synopsis down into these scenes, but it is equally not helpful if the article pulls scene numbers seemingly out of thin air. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 08:50, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
I found that Gounod had written essentially what is quoted under "Cultural Influences" and that Kierkegaard in the book cited there had a very high regard for Don Giovanni, but I could not find that Kierkegaard was quoting Gounod, except according to a book which is an assemblage of past WP articles. Marlindale ( talk) 03:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
In an edit of the article just made, should "sevens" be "sevenths"? Marlindale ( talk) 18:15, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
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it seems to me that Don Giovanni would have preferred seduction. After he is unmasked, things get unpleasant and he kills the Commendatore in a duel. Some sources call the Don Juan character a "libertine". Marlindale ( talk) 00:09, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
1. I am removing (again) User Vlastimil Svoboda's addition to the short introductory summary of the SYNOPSIS, which ran:
As disgraceful as his earlier behavior was, it is only the commission of the crime of murder in the action of this drama that leads to his eternal punishment for a lifetime of immoral behavior. No earthly power can bring the resourceful Don Giovanni to justice; it is only supernatural forces that can overcome his ingenious aptitude for evading retribution.
This is not SYNOPSIS, it is ANALYSIS. It is also SPECULATIVE. There is nothing in the libretto which says which crime caused the dirty Don to merit damnation. How do you KNOW the statue wasn't pissed off at him for betraying Donna Elvira, or for beating up Masetto, or for telling Masetto's chums to look for someone dressed in the Don's clothes (Leporello) and beat him up (in "Meta di voi qu vadano")? You don't know, and nothing in the opera says; the statue only says "Cangia vita", does not say WHICH aspects of his vita he wants the Don to cangia. So this is not SYNOPSIS.
2. In his most recent reversion, User Vlastimil Svoboda's short description of the reversion says "HandsomeMrToad reveals himself now as a hypocrite, besides slanderer". This is not appropriate! You are supposed to ASSUME GOOD FAITH and not make personal ad hominem attacks. Discuss the edit, not the person, please.
3. As I said on User Vlastimil Svoboda's TALK page, I have no objection to the interesting Seville/not-Seville discussion now that it is sourced and located in an appropriate section of the article (not in the synopsis). I think it significantly improves the article. Nice job, Vlastimil!
Best wishes, HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 04:16, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Just yesterday there was a section titled "Other performances", it included the date of the premiere of Don Giovanni in London, in Italy, etc. This is an important subject, it's a proof of the reception of Mozart outside Germany/Austria and the opposition it faced. Why was it taken away? Who deleted it and why? Can it be recovered? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.37.21.208 ( talk) 23:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Read the libretto! This is not a rape. Rape is clearly not what the libretto implies. The entire history of the Don Juan story in its previous instances is relevant and does not imply rape. The cited article makes this point as well. Yet the wikipedia article suggests it could have been a rape. Seduction of Donna Anna is still an evil act, as the consequences of seduction were potentially dire for the seduced women in a time when women were not financially independent, there was no effective contraception, social mores were harsh, and the social safety net was quite limited. Often, an unwed mother at that time was headed for the convent or the street. Some persons do not understand the social situation for women during Mozart's time. Don Giovanni may have tricked Donna Anna my impersonating another, or he may have made false promises, or otherwise acted unethically. But it was not rape. Donna Anna sings, "Do not expect me ever to let you escape, unless you kill me." Here is an analysis of this point: [1] The author of this article writes: "I take this to mean that she is taken with him sexually and wants to cling to him. The speech is ambiguous and could be interpreted as, "I am holding on to you until the police arrive," but I think not. It is the word "ever" that is the tip-off. "You will not ever leave me" is the sort of thing that would be said by a clinging lover, not someone making a citizen's arrest." Sbelknap ( talk) 14:20, 22 August 2018 (UTC) Sbelknap ( talk) 22:51, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
References
Is "the cuts are rarely made" or is "the cut music is rarely performed" intended here. Op47 ( talk) 17:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 29, 2004, October 29, 2005, October 29, 2006, October 29, 2007, October 29, 2008, October 29, 2009, October 29, 2010, October 29, 2018, and October 29, 2019. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Don Giovanni. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Don Giovanni at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
|
||
Recent edits have changed the description of Don Giovanni's treatment of Donna Anna in the first scene from "seduced" to " raped", back to " seduced" (with an unkind edit summary) and then to " raped" again. There's plenty of literature about the character of Donna Anna: whether she was indeed raped or whether she was a willing participant in the clandestine liaison. Neither text nor music of the opera give an unambiguous explanation. On balance, it seems to me that te characterisation of "rape" has a whiff of a modern reading about it and seems somewhat anachronistic. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 12:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
References
I support User:Michael Bednareks reversion of the info box up top for precisely the reason which he stated: "partly undid revision 638979534 by Meister und Margarita (talk): article needs a navigation box for WAM's operas."
With only an info box and no navigation box, we lack a direct link to other operas by this composer. That's why there have been changes on many other composers' articles (e.g. Verdi has an image of Verdi up top and a nav box down below).
Now, as I've expressed before (and have set up for many of the Bellini articles, for example), I am not opposed to info boxes per se, but we can't have one without the other.
Maybe we can prevail on someone to add to the Mozart nav box.....?? All the best for 2015, Viva-Verdi ( talk) 23:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, as far as an info box pic is concerned, either one of the following would work, although I do like the Mario one. Both are on Commons. Viva-Verdi ( talk) 20:24, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
The scene numbering in the article is inconsistent with the score, both at NMA and at Naxos. Here's a rough-and-ready cut/pase from the libretto at Naxos:
Act 1
Scena I
Davanti la casa di Donn’Anna.
Scena II
Scena III
Entrano Donn’Anna e Don Ottavio, con servi che portano diversi lumi.
Scena IV
Una strada. Notte.
Scena V
Scena VI
Scena VII
Zerlina e Masetto entrano con un gruppo di contadini e
contadine, ballando e ridendo.
Scena VIII
Don Giovanni e Leporello appaiono e stanno da parte.
Scena IX
Scena X
I suddetti e Donna Elvira, che ferma con atti disperatissimi Don Giovanni.
Scena XI
Scena XII
Scena XIII
Scena XIV
Scena XV
Scena XVI
Giardino di Don Giovanni con due porte chiuse a chiave per di fuori
Scena XVII
Masetto entra nella nicchia; appare Don Giovanni con quattro servi nobilmente vestiti.
Scena XVIII
Scena XIX
Don Ottavio, Donna Anna e Donna Elvira entrano in maschera.
Scena XX
Sala illuminata e preparata per un gran festa di ballo (Presenti Don Giovanni, Leporello, Zerlina, Masetto, contadine e contadini.Don Giovanni fa seder le ragazze e Leporello i ragazzi in atto di aver finito un ballo.)
Act 2
Scena I
Strada
Scena II
Scena III
Scena IV
Entra Masetto armato d’archibuso e pistola, e dei contadini.
Scena V
(Ritorna in scena Don Giovanni, conducendo seco per la mano Masetto.)
Scena VI
Scena VII
Atrio terreno oscuro con tre porte in casa di Donna Anna.
Scena VIII
Scena IX
Scena X
Scena XI
Loco chiuso in forma di sepolcreto. Diverse statue equestri fra cui la statua del Commendatore Recitativo Don Giovanni (entrando pel muretto, ridendo)
Scena XII
Camera tetra in casa di Donna Anna
Scena XIII
Sala in casa di Don Giovanni; una mensa preparata per mangiare; alcuni suonatori in disparte.
Scena XIV
Scena XV
Scena Ultima
Donna Elvira, Donna Anna, Don Ottavio, Zerlina e Masetto entrano con ministri di giustizia.
I don't think it would be helpful to break the synopsis down into these scenes, but it is equally not helpful if the article pulls scene numbers seemingly out of thin air. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 08:50, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
I found that Gounod had written essentially what is quoted under "Cultural Influences" and that Kierkegaard in the book cited there had a very high regard for Don Giovanni, but I could not find that Kierkegaard was quoting Gounod, except according to a book which is an assemblage of past WP articles. Marlindale ( talk) 03:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
In an edit of the article just made, should "sevens" be "sevenths"? Marlindale ( talk) 18:15, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Don Giovanni. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
it seems to me that Don Giovanni would have preferred seduction. After he is unmasked, things get unpleasant and he kills the Commendatore in a duel. Some sources call the Don Juan character a "libertine". Marlindale ( talk) 00:09, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
1. I am removing (again) User Vlastimil Svoboda's addition to the short introductory summary of the SYNOPSIS, which ran:
As disgraceful as his earlier behavior was, it is only the commission of the crime of murder in the action of this drama that leads to his eternal punishment for a lifetime of immoral behavior. No earthly power can bring the resourceful Don Giovanni to justice; it is only supernatural forces that can overcome his ingenious aptitude for evading retribution.
This is not SYNOPSIS, it is ANALYSIS. It is also SPECULATIVE. There is nothing in the libretto which says which crime caused the dirty Don to merit damnation. How do you KNOW the statue wasn't pissed off at him for betraying Donna Elvira, or for beating up Masetto, or for telling Masetto's chums to look for someone dressed in the Don's clothes (Leporello) and beat him up (in "Meta di voi qu vadano")? You don't know, and nothing in the opera says; the statue only says "Cangia vita", does not say WHICH aspects of his vita he wants the Don to cangia. So this is not SYNOPSIS.
2. In his most recent reversion, User Vlastimil Svoboda's short description of the reversion says "HandsomeMrToad reveals himself now as a hypocrite, besides slanderer". This is not appropriate! You are supposed to ASSUME GOOD FAITH and not make personal ad hominem attacks. Discuss the edit, not the person, please.
3. As I said on User Vlastimil Svoboda's TALK page, I have no objection to the interesting Seville/not-Seville discussion now that it is sourced and located in an appropriate section of the article (not in the synopsis). I think it significantly improves the article. Nice job, Vlastimil!
Best wishes, HandsomeMrToad ( talk) 04:16, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Just yesterday there was a section titled "Other performances", it included the date of the premiere of Don Giovanni in London, in Italy, etc. This is an important subject, it's a proof of the reception of Mozart outside Germany/Austria and the opposition it faced. Why was it taken away? Who deleted it and why? Can it be recovered? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.37.21.208 ( talk) 23:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Read the libretto! This is not a rape. Rape is clearly not what the libretto implies. The entire history of the Don Juan story in its previous instances is relevant and does not imply rape. The cited article makes this point as well. Yet the wikipedia article suggests it could have been a rape. Seduction of Donna Anna is still an evil act, as the consequences of seduction were potentially dire for the seduced women in a time when women were not financially independent, there was no effective contraception, social mores were harsh, and the social safety net was quite limited. Often, an unwed mother at that time was headed for the convent or the street. Some persons do not understand the social situation for women during Mozart's time. Don Giovanni may have tricked Donna Anna my impersonating another, or he may have made false promises, or otherwise acted unethically. But it was not rape. Donna Anna sings, "Do not expect me ever to let you escape, unless you kill me." Here is an analysis of this point: [1] The author of this article writes: "I take this to mean that she is taken with him sexually and wants to cling to him. The speech is ambiguous and could be interpreted as, "I am holding on to you until the police arrive," but I think not. It is the word "ever" that is the tip-off. "You will not ever leave me" is the sort of thing that would be said by a clinging lover, not someone making a citizen's arrest." Sbelknap ( talk) 14:20, 22 August 2018 (UTC) Sbelknap ( talk) 22:51, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
References
Is "the cuts are rarely made" or is "the cut music is rarely performed" intended here. Op47 ( talk) 17:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)