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This article contains a translation of Djaafar Khemdoudi from fr.wikipedia. |
Hello @ M.Bitton, I would like to emphasize that I have contacted the family regarding the rights to the images. After discussing with the children, they informed me over the phone that their father did not consider himself Algerian and did not hold Algerian nationality. They have sent me a series of photographic sources, however, they are still considering whether to allow Commons to upload these sources. If that's not the case, I will still use them as references without including them in the photographic record, but we need to wait a few days. Initially, I had stated that he was Algerian and French when creating the French page and translating it into English, but the family has informed me that this was incorrect. Therefore, I have made the necessary modifications, and I believe that stating he was French with Algerian origins is the most accurate here, in order to acknowledge his Maghrebi heritage without delving too deeply into his identity. According to the family, Djaafar Khemdoudi considered himself completely French until his death. This is not surprising, as a significant number of resistance fighters of Maghrebi origin chose to oppose Algerian independence, such as Bel Hadj El Maafi, whom I have created a page for. However, this is not the case for all resistance fighters. We can think of Kaddour Benghabrit's son, Ahmad, who was expelled from the Great Mosque of Paris for delivering sermons in support of the independence of French colonies. However, it seems that Djaafar Khemdoudi was not in that situation and always considered himself French.
Cordially, AgisdeSparte ( talk) 10:34, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
No source in introthere is no policy that prevents us from adding a source to the intro, especially when it comes to replacing WP:OR. If you know of one, you're welcome to cite it.
+ family testified to me that he never considered himself as an AlgerianUnfortunately, you're not a reliable source.
After discussing with the children, they informed me over the phone that their father did not consider himself Algerian and did not hold Algerian nationalityeven if this was verifiable (it's not), it still wouldn't make any sense given that all the Algerians who fought for France were simply « indigènes » that were never considered as French (whether before or during the war).
This is not surprising, as a significant number of resistance fighters of Maghrebi origin chose to oppose Algerian independencefirst of all, "significant" is baseless WP:OR and second, that's a different subject. Some Algerians opposed the Algerian independence (years after the second world wars) for various reasons, none of which has anything to do with them feeling French (they were indigènes and different from the French in every possible way, including legally). You're also forgetting all those Algerians who fought for France during the two world wars before fighting France itself during the Algerian war.
1. The letter of Bel Hadj el Maafi to the Military governor of Lyon, September 17, 1946, especially the last sentence, speaking about his French patriotism. El Maafi was a French spy, as you can see on his article ; and was used by France to certify that members of the Algerian community of Lyon were not independantists, or where.
2. The attestation of Georges Durand towards the French authorities, former leader of the Lyonnese resistance, December 11, 1947, especially the part about French nationalism.
3. His French état-civil documents ; where he renamed himself "Jean" before "Djaafar", and the names given to his daughter and son, Jacques.
4. His Neuengamme deportation papers ; that specify him as "Frank" in the last line.
4. You spoke about Kamel Mouellef, who specifically wrote about Djaafar Khemdoudi. He never said anything like that in any of his works about Djaafar Khemdoudi. He was also in link with the family of Djaafar Khemdoudi to wrote his works speaking about him. It was specifically them who told me to add Kamel Mouellef to the article. Ask him. :)
5. There isn't any document about Djaafar Khemdoudi that specifies that he was Indigène ; even his Maghrebi bataillon isn't known specifically, during the war. You have, however, a series of official documents about the fact that he was french, starting from his état-civil by French authorities, that you can consult at the préfecture of Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes. Therefore, better than vulgarization articles that are dubious, as I said above, you can consult those sources about that. Moreover, this is somewhat spoke about by Marc André, especially about the commemoration of Djaafar Khemdoudi in the prison of Montluc by the ADM.
PS : If you want to speak about that, and consult some of these documents, you can text me on the French Wikipédia Discord (AgisdeSparte there too). I would be more than happy to speak to you about this and send you what I have ; but I cannot send them here in a public space, since the family isn't sure yet to allow these documents to be used by Commons. Normally, as I did a lot of Resistance fighters from colonial origin, I say that they are Algerian (or other), such as for https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahi_Sa%C3%AFd. Here, it's not the case.
Cordially,
AgisdeSparte ( talk)
He is considered as a French, and not as an Algerian fighter by the Arolsen Archives - International Center on Nazi Persecution after a request from his familysays the exact opposite of what you attributed to it. M.Bitton ( talk) 15:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
Pour ses enfants, il est aussi important que leur père soit classé parmi les français dans les Arolsen Archives, et non pas en tant qu’Algérien, car il a combattu dans la Résistance française.or in English :
It is also important to his children that their father is listed as a Frenchman in the Arolsen Archives and not as an Algerian – after all, he fought in the French resistance.AgisdeSparte ( talk) 15:51, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
References
Algeria=France=Algeria. Just posted a big explainer on that at WP:ANI. Otherwise, really, I must get back to the dramas I already have in progress. 07:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC) Elinruby ( talk) 07:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
We need to discuss this without flooding the talk page with text, which has already been done. In short: No walls of text.
Let's start with some basic principles:
in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted."
a Hungarian and American actor".
Now, I think a table would be helpful here to organize the basic disputes. Please correct this table if there is a fact that is wrongly marked as agreed or disputed.
Fact | Agreed | Disputed |
---|---|---|
Khemdoudi was born in Algeria in 1917. | X | |
Algeria was a French colony at the time. | X | |
Algerian-born persons were considered French "subjects" at the time. | X | |
France granted citizenship to Algerian-born persons in 1947 | X | |
Khemdoudi lived most of his life in France; he moved there when he was 17. | X | |
Khemdoudi EITHER was a French national (as a French subject) at the time of his birth or became a French national after the War, but no reliable sources directly describe him as "French". | X | |
There are two reliable source that describes Khemdoudi as "Algerian". | X | |
Reliable sources note that Khemdoudi considered himself French, and his children considered him to be just French. | X | |
Khemdoudi joined the French resistance and committed many notable acts in France. | X | |
After the war, Khemdoudi lived and died in France. | X | |
Because he was born in Algeria, Khemdoudi's actions were not widely recognized for some time. | X |
Is that everything?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Because he was Algerian, Khemdoudi's actions were not recognized—that's already in the table. Also, I'm not sure "Algerian" is considered an ethnicity. See Ethnic groups in Algeria.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:28, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Il est conseillé de la façon la plus pressante aux travailleurs musulmans algériens de s'abstenir de circuler la nuit dans les rues de Paris et de la banlieue parisienne, et plus particulièrement de 20h30 à 5h30 du matin".
— la préfecture de police de Paris (5 October 1961), Source
Through this duty of memory, I want to say to young French people from post-colonial immigration: the tricolor flag is yours, your ancestors have contributed to writing the history of France[1] AgisdeSparte ( talk) 15:46, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Please, both of you, try not to get into extended back and forths. Just as an experiment, would you all be willing to voluntarily commit to a rule: Each person here can respond once after each of my comments.
So, I will say @ AgisdeSparte, I'm not sure "what the subject considered themself" ... or even what select others considered the subject, is particularly relevant. What the subject considered themself might be relevant. But if it can be relevant, I think we first have to establish that he was a French national.
Take an example: I was born in the United States. I've never lived anywhere else. I have some Scottish ancestors from way back, but I've never even visited Scotland. But let's imagine I tell everyone that I consider myself Scottish. ... If a Wikipedia article were written about me, it probably wouldn't be appropriate for it to describe me as "Scottish".
So do we agree that Khemdoudi was either born a French national or became a French national? Let's just focus on that question alone.--- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:28, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Excellent, great job both of you. So I thinkr that point is actually the crux of the matter. I think we should focus in on this question. First, it doesn't seem to me like we have a clear definition of what a "French national" is. Is the term restricted to citizens, or does it include subjects? Do either of you have a reliable source that directly says whether "Indigènes"—which I take to mean people born in French "departments" or colonies—were French nationals?(Admittedly, this is entering rocky waters ... it's arguably a WP:SYNTH issue, but in light of this essay (SYNTH is not a rigid rule) and WP:IAR, I think it's appropriate to make an exception here given the seeming straightforwardness of the inquiry: If we have source that says "all people born in French colonies were French nationals" ... and a source that says Khemdoudi was born in a French colony ... it's not really a stretch.)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 17:31, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
So, what I've tried to do here is provide a third opinion (even though the ship has sort of sailed on that given the ANI posts).
In light of the above, I think we have two matters of interpretation to consider, per MOS:NATIONALITY
I think both of these questions present exceedingly close calls. But, on my read of the dispute, I think we should either describe Khemdoudi as a French-Algerian or not note his nationality.
I would really encourage both editors to try to see the big picture here. This is really about one word. We've already spent far too much time discussing it. M.Bitton, I completely understand that you want to emphasize the discriminatory treatment of Khemdoudi. But the best way to do that is to expand the "Legacy" section (which currently discusses the fact that Khemdoudi was forgotten and why). I actually think it's ridiculous that his forgotten status isn't mentioned in the lead, and I've gone ahead and fixed that—I hope that balance makes this an acceptable compromise to you. And, AgisdeSparte, just as general notes: while I think you've made great contributions to the article, I would just generally be cautious about some of your methods. Wikipedia articles should generally rely on secondary reliable sources. At least a few of your changes have been based solely on published primary sources or, more worrying, on your unpublished contact with the family. Those are both risky paths; the latter of which is probably never appropriate, and the former of which should only be taken on the rarest occasions.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 18:13, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
References
In practice, an Algerian who sought citizenship under French civil law had to renounce his local status, effectively requiring him to abandon Islam. According to Patrick Weil, between 1865 and 1962 only 7,000 Algerians acquired French citizenship through this naturalization procedure.
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This article contains a translation of Djaafar Khemdoudi from fr.wikipedia. |
Hello @ M.Bitton, I would like to emphasize that I have contacted the family regarding the rights to the images. After discussing with the children, they informed me over the phone that their father did not consider himself Algerian and did not hold Algerian nationality. They have sent me a series of photographic sources, however, they are still considering whether to allow Commons to upload these sources. If that's not the case, I will still use them as references without including them in the photographic record, but we need to wait a few days. Initially, I had stated that he was Algerian and French when creating the French page and translating it into English, but the family has informed me that this was incorrect. Therefore, I have made the necessary modifications, and I believe that stating he was French with Algerian origins is the most accurate here, in order to acknowledge his Maghrebi heritage without delving too deeply into his identity. According to the family, Djaafar Khemdoudi considered himself completely French until his death. This is not surprising, as a significant number of resistance fighters of Maghrebi origin chose to oppose Algerian independence, such as Bel Hadj El Maafi, whom I have created a page for. However, this is not the case for all resistance fighters. We can think of Kaddour Benghabrit's son, Ahmad, who was expelled from the Great Mosque of Paris for delivering sermons in support of the independence of French colonies. However, it seems that Djaafar Khemdoudi was not in that situation and always considered himself French.
Cordially, AgisdeSparte ( talk) 10:34, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
No source in introthere is no policy that prevents us from adding a source to the intro, especially when it comes to replacing WP:OR. If you know of one, you're welcome to cite it.
+ family testified to me that he never considered himself as an AlgerianUnfortunately, you're not a reliable source.
After discussing with the children, they informed me over the phone that their father did not consider himself Algerian and did not hold Algerian nationalityeven if this was verifiable (it's not), it still wouldn't make any sense given that all the Algerians who fought for France were simply « indigènes » that were never considered as French (whether before or during the war).
This is not surprising, as a significant number of resistance fighters of Maghrebi origin chose to oppose Algerian independencefirst of all, "significant" is baseless WP:OR and second, that's a different subject. Some Algerians opposed the Algerian independence (years after the second world wars) for various reasons, none of which has anything to do with them feeling French (they were indigènes and different from the French in every possible way, including legally). You're also forgetting all those Algerians who fought for France during the two world wars before fighting France itself during the Algerian war.
1. The letter of Bel Hadj el Maafi to the Military governor of Lyon, September 17, 1946, especially the last sentence, speaking about his French patriotism. El Maafi was a French spy, as you can see on his article ; and was used by France to certify that members of the Algerian community of Lyon were not independantists, or where.
2. The attestation of Georges Durand towards the French authorities, former leader of the Lyonnese resistance, December 11, 1947, especially the part about French nationalism.
3. His French état-civil documents ; where he renamed himself "Jean" before "Djaafar", and the names given to his daughter and son, Jacques.
4. His Neuengamme deportation papers ; that specify him as "Frank" in the last line.
4. You spoke about Kamel Mouellef, who specifically wrote about Djaafar Khemdoudi. He never said anything like that in any of his works about Djaafar Khemdoudi. He was also in link with the family of Djaafar Khemdoudi to wrote his works speaking about him. It was specifically them who told me to add Kamel Mouellef to the article. Ask him. :)
5. There isn't any document about Djaafar Khemdoudi that specifies that he was Indigène ; even his Maghrebi bataillon isn't known specifically, during the war. You have, however, a series of official documents about the fact that he was french, starting from his état-civil by French authorities, that you can consult at the préfecture of Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes. Therefore, better than vulgarization articles that are dubious, as I said above, you can consult those sources about that. Moreover, this is somewhat spoke about by Marc André, especially about the commemoration of Djaafar Khemdoudi in the prison of Montluc by the ADM.
PS : If you want to speak about that, and consult some of these documents, you can text me on the French Wikipédia Discord (AgisdeSparte there too). I would be more than happy to speak to you about this and send you what I have ; but I cannot send them here in a public space, since the family isn't sure yet to allow these documents to be used by Commons. Normally, as I did a lot of Resistance fighters from colonial origin, I say that they are Algerian (or other), such as for https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahi_Sa%C3%AFd. Here, it's not the case.
Cordially,
AgisdeSparte ( talk)
He is considered as a French, and not as an Algerian fighter by the Arolsen Archives - International Center on Nazi Persecution after a request from his familysays the exact opposite of what you attributed to it. M.Bitton ( talk) 15:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
Pour ses enfants, il est aussi important que leur père soit classé parmi les français dans les Arolsen Archives, et non pas en tant qu’Algérien, car il a combattu dans la Résistance française.or in English :
It is also important to his children that their father is listed as a Frenchman in the Arolsen Archives and not as an Algerian – after all, he fought in the French resistance.AgisdeSparte ( talk) 15:51, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
References
Algeria=France=Algeria. Just posted a big explainer on that at WP:ANI. Otherwise, really, I must get back to the dramas I already have in progress. 07:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC) Elinruby ( talk) 07:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
We need to discuss this without flooding the talk page with text, which has already been done. In short: No walls of text.
Let's start with some basic principles:
in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted."
a Hungarian and American actor".
Now, I think a table would be helpful here to organize the basic disputes. Please correct this table if there is a fact that is wrongly marked as agreed or disputed.
Fact | Agreed | Disputed |
---|---|---|
Khemdoudi was born in Algeria in 1917. | X | |
Algeria was a French colony at the time. | X | |
Algerian-born persons were considered French "subjects" at the time. | X | |
France granted citizenship to Algerian-born persons in 1947 | X | |
Khemdoudi lived most of his life in France; he moved there when he was 17. | X | |
Khemdoudi EITHER was a French national (as a French subject) at the time of his birth or became a French national after the War, but no reliable sources directly describe him as "French". | X | |
There are two reliable source that describes Khemdoudi as "Algerian". | X | |
Reliable sources note that Khemdoudi considered himself French, and his children considered him to be just French. | X | |
Khemdoudi joined the French resistance and committed many notable acts in France. | X | |
After the war, Khemdoudi lived and died in France. | X | |
Because he was born in Algeria, Khemdoudi's actions were not widely recognized for some time. | X |
Is that everything?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Because he was Algerian, Khemdoudi's actions were not recognized—that's already in the table. Also, I'm not sure "Algerian" is considered an ethnicity. See Ethnic groups in Algeria.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:28, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Il est conseillé de la façon la plus pressante aux travailleurs musulmans algériens de s'abstenir de circuler la nuit dans les rues de Paris et de la banlieue parisienne, et plus particulièrement de 20h30 à 5h30 du matin".
— la préfecture de police de Paris (5 October 1961), Source
Through this duty of memory, I want to say to young French people from post-colonial immigration: the tricolor flag is yours, your ancestors have contributed to writing the history of France[1] AgisdeSparte ( talk) 15:46, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Please, both of you, try not to get into extended back and forths. Just as an experiment, would you all be willing to voluntarily commit to a rule: Each person here can respond once after each of my comments.
So, I will say @ AgisdeSparte, I'm not sure "what the subject considered themself" ... or even what select others considered the subject, is particularly relevant. What the subject considered themself might be relevant. But if it can be relevant, I think we first have to establish that he was a French national.
Take an example: I was born in the United States. I've never lived anywhere else. I have some Scottish ancestors from way back, but I've never even visited Scotland. But let's imagine I tell everyone that I consider myself Scottish. ... If a Wikipedia article were written about me, it probably wouldn't be appropriate for it to describe me as "Scottish".
So do we agree that Khemdoudi was either born a French national or became a French national? Let's just focus on that question alone.--- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:28, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Excellent, great job both of you. So I thinkr that point is actually the crux of the matter. I think we should focus in on this question. First, it doesn't seem to me like we have a clear definition of what a "French national" is. Is the term restricted to citizens, or does it include subjects? Do either of you have a reliable source that directly says whether "Indigènes"—which I take to mean people born in French "departments" or colonies—were French nationals?(Admittedly, this is entering rocky waters ... it's arguably a WP:SYNTH issue, but in light of this essay (SYNTH is not a rigid rule) and WP:IAR, I think it's appropriate to make an exception here given the seeming straightforwardness of the inquiry: If we have source that says "all people born in French colonies were French nationals" ... and a source that says Khemdoudi was born in a French colony ... it's not really a stretch.)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 17:31, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
So, what I've tried to do here is provide a third opinion (even though the ship has sort of sailed on that given the ANI posts).
In light of the above, I think we have two matters of interpretation to consider, per MOS:NATIONALITY
I think both of these questions present exceedingly close calls. But, on my read of the dispute, I think we should either describe Khemdoudi as a French-Algerian or not note his nationality.
I would really encourage both editors to try to see the big picture here. This is really about one word. We've already spent far too much time discussing it. M.Bitton, I completely understand that you want to emphasize the discriminatory treatment of Khemdoudi. But the best way to do that is to expand the "Legacy" section (which currently discusses the fact that Khemdoudi was forgotten and why). I actually think it's ridiculous that his forgotten status isn't mentioned in the lead, and I've gone ahead and fixed that—I hope that balance makes this an acceptable compromise to you. And, AgisdeSparte, just as general notes: while I think you've made great contributions to the article, I would just generally be cautious about some of your methods. Wikipedia articles should generally rely on secondary reliable sources. At least a few of your changes have been based solely on published primary sources or, more worrying, on your unpublished contact with the family. Those are both risky paths; the latter of which is probably never appropriate, and the former of which should only be taken on the rarest occasions.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 18:13, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
References
In practice, an Algerian who sought citizenship under French civil law had to renounce his local status, effectively requiring him to abandon Islam. According to Patrick Weil, between 1865 and 1962 only 7,000 Algerians acquired French citizenship through this naturalization procedure.