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The use of flags as far as I can see, is as follows:
The Red/White flag is used in US inland and coastal waters (and probably elsewhere) to indicate "Diver Down".
In International waters and the coastal waters of the UK (as well as other countries), the International Rules for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea apply. Rule 27 paras (d) and (e) are as follows:
(d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in sub-paragraph(b) (i), (ii) and (iii) of this Rule and shall in addition, when an obstruction exists, exhibit;
(i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists;
(ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which side a vessel may pass;
(iii) when at anchor the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30.
(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all the lights and shapes prescribed in the paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited;
(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
(ii) a rigid replica of the International Code Flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.
(online source: Sailtrain, IRPCS)
Therefore the use of the 'A' flag is specifically on a vessel, "when restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" and when "the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all the lights and shapes prescribed". Note that the mention of the 'A' flag is only in para (e) and this applies solely to small vessels "engaged in diving operations".
So it would be correct to say that the 'A' flag has the meaning vessel 'engaged in diving operations and restricted in her ability to manoeuvre'. This applies in all of the UK and in International waters. I'll try to make the edits here and in Scuba diving to improve accuracy. -- RexxS ( talk) 16:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I came across your edit and I wonder, whether you could provide any source to support your statement, that the use of the diver down flag is required by law or regulation "in many other countries all over the world" besides the US and Canada? Thanks. -- AtonX ( talk) 15:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, for example I live in Italy and here it is required by law
[1]. (I just added that reference at the article)
Here
[1] they also cite Switzerland...
Thank you for pointing out the lack of references.
If anybody know other places in the world where the red-white diver down flag is required by law, please add them to this discussion (or to the article). Please do not forget to add also some references. Thanks! Basilicofresco ( talk) 07:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
From the italan regulation (DPR 1639/68) it is obvious, that it regulates "marine fishing". Legally, it cannot be interpreted, that any diving activity is covered. This should be specified in the article. -- AtonX ( talk) 10:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The Red and White flag section currently states that it is: "required by law or regulation in many US states and Canada,[7] as well as in several other countries in the world (e.g. Italy)." The reference only cites Italian regulations. Considering the literally vital significance of this, there should surely be a mention of which US states and which countries require the use of this flag rather than the Alfa flag. So far we only have references for Italy and Switzerland cited here (and the Swiss one no longer works). It looks like Denzel James Dockery created a source of possibly dangerous confusion when he invented the R&W flag. Was the Alfa flag in use in 1956? Robocon1 ( talk) 16:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
An edit at 18:18, 1 February 2010 by RexxS was marked as to "rewrite section for clarity; remove duplication; tidy refs". But contrary to the edit summary, the edit changes the meaning, and in a way that clearly seems to be unsupported by the cited references.
Specifically, in the first place, the edit adds an unsupported meaning to the code flag A. The cited sources do not say that it has to be shown by a vessel engaged in 'dredging or underwater operations', but only for diving operations (see rule 27(e)). Also Rule 27(e) does not state that it exhausts all the diving situations for which the A-flag may be used. (The A-flag means "I have a diver down; keep well clear at slow speed" and can naturally be used whenever that is the message to be conveyed.)
Secondly, the edit appears to have changed the meaning, and newly alleges a "primary purpose" for the A-flag ("to warn other vessels of the danger of collision"), but (a) this newly-alleged primary purpose is different from the only meaning of the flag given by a reliable citation: which is "I have a diver down; keep well clear at slow speed" (the only meaning supported by the US Navy cited source), and (b) the newly alleged primary meaning appears not to be supported by any reliable source: there is a citation but only to a private website which shows no signs of being either notable or reliable. Although the quote claims to be from a Coastguard notice, the Coastguard is not cited as a source, only the private website. The US Navy source (which clearly is WP:RS) contradicts and therefore takes away the credibility of the other source. It is also very far from clear that the Coastguard, even if it could be verified as a source for the statement in question, has any authority to supersede the meaning of signals stated by the US Navy.
I have therefore marked the new matter as dubious, and in need of citation support. It looks very much as if the edit claiming to be for 'clarity' needs to be followed by one that really is for correction. Terry0051 ( talk) 19:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Code of Signals, Ch. 1 p. 22), so I think the second paragraph accurately reflects the use of the 'A' flag as a code flag. You seem to have a problem just with Rule 27, so I'll quote the relevant subsections:
Thanks, that seems to be quite a lot better. I just have two remaining points. One is likely to be uncontroversial (I hope & believe). I appreciate your reasons for not moving the A-flag image upwards. It might be awkward to implement. But it does leave the opening paragraph short of any indication that there is yet another flag still to be described down below. I suggest the reader needs to be informed right at the start that practice is not uniform worldwide. This seems to be more about presentation than content, so I'm putting in the edit; if you think of something better, as ever, feel free.
Point two is maybe more difficult, and so I am not making any other edit at this time. It's about the quote from the USCG notice to mariners. I make no criticism of the source, nor of the quote, both seem good in those terms. But in the real world, and just for the moment outside wikipedia terms, and trying to exercise common sense, I doubt extremely whether the US Coast Guard (or any other national organization in any country, so far as acting alone) has the authority to alter -- or even to interpret unilaterally -- an internationally agreed signal. The whole point of an international agreement is that it is, indeed, international: it takes international action to change it. Secondly, and equally important, we're talking about things that happen at sea here, where messages are to be clear and simple and well-understood. There's no place here for a lawyer at the elbow to advise on subtle reinterpretations! Messages at sea have to be sharp, clear, and simple, and say just what they mean, and mean just what they say, with no messing. What else was the purpose of having them internationally agreed?
Translating this into Wikipedia terms, I don't suggest putting any of that reasoning into the article. As it stands, without external support, it would be unsourced viewpoint. But equally, there is an at-least-implicit suggestion, currently there in the article text -- so I read it -- that a unilateral national statement, here, is modifying the internationally agreed meaning of the A-flag. Well, there's no source for that, and currently it would be in need of separate verification under WP:V. All in all, I suggest it would be fair and balanced in the circumstances to report this as an opinion of the US CG (i.e. without saying whether or not it is a settled aspect of the international A-flag meaning), and then just leave it at that, until more/better sources come to light. Your views would be of interest, naturally. As I mentioned, I didn't extend the edit to cover this point; I don't know what can be considered a consensus view here, but I doubt if a suggestion that unilateral national action alters international action can be a consensus view in the current state of the sources. -- With good wishes -- Terry0051 ( talk) 23:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
At present there is no reliable source for the statement that the flag originated in 1956/57. I'll move the text here and see if one can be found.
It's possible that somebody has access to the September 1957 issue of Skin Diver Magazine, but it's not in any library near me. -- RexxS ( talk) 03:20, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)This article seems very US centric. It proclaims the red/white to be the Diver Down flag....then goes on to state, almost as an afterthought, that "other places" use the A flag. This is wrong.
The INTERNATIONAL flag for "diver down" is the A flag. In the US they use the red/white flag. The whole article is about face. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.195.62 ( talk) 19:09, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I removed this section from the article, since it seemed to read as an opnion. I'm putting it here for a user who understands the navel community better to see if any of it should be rewritten and placed back in to the article.
-- The Navigators ( talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 20:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I've just restored the sentence "Code flag alfa/alpha also represents the letter 'A' in signalling"
to the Other uses section. I can see that code flag alpha is referred to as the 'A' flag in an earlier section and if you follow the link to
International maritime signal flags, you can work out that it is used in signalling to spell the letter 'A', but this article doesn't explicitly state that anywhere, other than the sentence that I restored. My preference would be to keep that to make absolutely clear the use to spell 'A' without having to follow a link to another page, but if others feel it's superfluous, I won't object if it's re-removed. --
RexxS (
talk)
22:50, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
After trying to find the exact boater distances and the specific boater safety rules for this topic, I am getting extremely annoyed by the variability of all the rules. They can vary from country to country, and in the USA, from state to state.
The whole subject matter is a mess, so I guess it's no wonder boaters often "don't follow the rules", because there is apparently no universal, global, UN-ratified standard that every country follows.
As an encyclopedia, it is entirely appropriate to try to sort out this matter and document ALL the various rule differences here, with citations of course. -- DMahalko ( talk) 19:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
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The use of flags as far as I can see, is as follows:
The Red/White flag is used in US inland and coastal waters (and probably elsewhere) to indicate "Diver Down".
In International waters and the coastal waters of the UK (as well as other countries), the International Rules for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea apply. Rule 27 paras (d) and (e) are as follows:
(d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in sub-paragraph(b) (i), (ii) and (iii) of this Rule and shall in addition, when an obstruction exists, exhibit;
(i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists;
(ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which side a vessel may pass;
(iii) when at anchor the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30.
(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all the lights and shapes prescribed in the paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited;
(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
(ii) a rigid replica of the International Code Flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.
(online source: Sailtrain, IRPCS)
Therefore the use of the 'A' flag is specifically on a vessel, "when restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" and when "the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all the lights and shapes prescribed". Note that the mention of the 'A' flag is only in para (e) and this applies solely to small vessels "engaged in diving operations".
So it would be correct to say that the 'A' flag has the meaning vessel 'engaged in diving operations and restricted in her ability to manoeuvre'. This applies in all of the UK and in International waters. I'll try to make the edits here and in Scuba diving to improve accuracy. -- RexxS ( talk) 16:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I came across your edit and I wonder, whether you could provide any source to support your statement, that the use of the diver down flag is required by law or regulation "in many other countries all over the world" besides the US and Canada? Thanks. -- AtonX ( talk) 15:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, for example I live in Italy and here it is required by law
[1]. (I just added that reference at the article)
Here
[1] they also cite Switzerland...
Thank you for pointing out the lack of references.
If anybody know other places in the world where the red-white diver down flag is required by law, please add them to this discussion (or to the article). Please do not forget to add also some references. Thanks! Basilicofresco ( talk) 07:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
From the italan regulation (DPR 1639/68) it is obvious, that it regulates "marine fishing". Legally, it cannot be interpreted, that any diving activity is covered. This should be specified in the article. -- AtonX ( talk) 10:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The Red and White flag section currently states that it is: "required by law or regulation in many US states and Canada,[7] as well as in several other countries in the world (e.g. Italy)." The reference only cites Italian regulations. Considering the literally vital significance of this, there should surely be a mention of which US states and which countries require the use of this flag rather than the Alfa flag. So far we only have references for Italy and Switzerland cited here (and the Swiss one no longer works). It looks like Denzel James Dockery created a source of possibly dangerous confusion when he invented the R&W flag. Was the Alfa flag in use in 1956? Robocon1 ( talk) 16:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
An edit at 18:18, 1 February 2010 by RexxS was marked as to "rewrite section for clarity; remove duplication; tidy refs". But contrary to the edit summary, the edit changes the meaning, and in a way that clearly seems to be unsupported by the cited references.
Specifically, in the first place, the edit adds an unsupported meaning to the code flag A. The cited sources do not say that it has to be shown by a vessel engaged in 'dredging or underwater operations', but only for diving operations (see rule 27(e)). Also Rule 27(e) does not state that it exhausts all the diving situations for which the A-flag may be used. (The A-flag means "I have a diver down; keep well clear at slow speed" and can naturally be used whenever that is the message to be conveyed.)
Secondly, the edit appears to have changed the meaning, and newly alleges a "primary purpose" for the A-flag ("to warn other vessels of the danger of collision"), but (a) this newly-alleged primary purpose is different from the only meaning of the flag given by a reliable citation: which is "I have a diver down; keep well clear at slow speed" (the only meaning supported by the US Navy cited source), and (b) the newly alleged primary meaning appears not to be supported by any reliable source: there is a citation but only to a private website which shows no signs of being either notable or reliable. Although the quote claims to be from a Coastguard notice, the Coastguard is not cited as a source, only the private website. The US Navy source (which clearly is WP:RS) contradicts and therefore takes away the credibility of the other source. It is also very far from clear that the Coastguard, even if it could be verified as a source for the statement in question, has any authority to supersede the meaning of signals stated by the US Navy.
I have therefore marked the new matter as dubious, and in need of citation support. It looks very much as if the edit claiming to be for 'clarity' needs to be followed by one that really is for correction. Terry0051 ( talk) 19:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Code of Signals, Ch. 1 p. 22), so I think the second paragraph accurately reflects the use of the 'A' flag as a code flag. You seem to have a problem just with Rule 27, so I'll quote the relevant subsections:
Thanks, that seems to be quite a lot better. I just have two remaining points. One is likely to be uncontroversial (I hope & believe). I appreciate your reasons for not moving the A-flag image upwards. It might be awkward to implement. But it does leave the opening paragraph short of any indication that there is yet another flag still to be described down below. I suggest the reader needs to be informed right at the start that practice is not uniform worldwide. This seems to be more about presentation than content, so I'm putting in the edit; if you think of something better, as ever, feel free.
Point two is maybe more difficult, and so I am not making any other edit at this time. It's about the quote from the USCG notice to mariners. I make no criticism of the source, nor of the quote, both seem good in those terms. But in the real world, and just for the moment outside wikipedia terms, and trying to exercise common sense, I doubt extremely whether the US Coast Guard (or any other national organization in any country, so far as acting alone) has the authority to alter -- or even to interpret unilaterally -- an internationally agreed signal. The whole point of an international agreement is that it is, indeed, international: it takes international action to change it. Secondly, and equally important, we're talking about things that happen at sea here, where messages are to be clear and simple and well-understood. There's no place here for a lawyer at the elbow to advise on subtle reinterpretations! Messages at sea have to be sharp, clear, and simple, and say just what they mean, and mean just what they say, with no messing. What else was the purpose of having them internationally agreed?
Translating this into Wikipedia terms, I don't suggest putting any of that reasoning into the article. As it stands, without external support, it would be unsourced viewpoint. But equally, there is an at-least-implicit suggestion, currently there in the article text -- so I read it -- that a unilateral national statement, here, is modifying the internationally agreed meaning of the A-flag. Well, there's no source for that, and currently it would be in need of separate verification under WP:V. All in all, I suggest it would be fair and balanced in the circumstances to report this as an opinion of the US CG (i.e. without saying whether or not it is a settled aspect of the international A-flag meaning), and then just leave it at that, until more/better sources come to light. Your views would be of interest, naturally. As I mentioned, I didn't extend the edit to cover this point; I don't know what can be considered a consensus view here, but I doubt if a suggestion that unilateral national action alters international action can be a consensus view in the current state of the sources. -- With good wishes -- Terry0051 ( talk) 23:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
At present there is no reliable source for the statement that the flag originated in 1956/57. I'll move the text here and see if one can be found.
It's possible that somebody has access to the September 1957 issue of Skin Diver Magazine, but it's not in any library near me. -- RexxS ( talk) 03:20, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)This article seems very US centric. It proclaims the red/white to be the Diver Down flag....then goes on to state, almost as an afterthought, that "other places" use the A flag. This is wrong.
The INTERNATIONAL flag for "diver down" is the A flag. In the US they use the red/white flag. The whole article is about face. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.195.62 ( talk) 19:09, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I removed this section from the article, since it seemed to read as an opnion. I'm putting it here for a user who understands the navel community better to see if any of it should be rewritten and placed back in to the article.
-- The Navigators ( talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 20:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I've just restored the sentence "Code flag alfa/alpha also represents the letter 'A' in signalling"
to the Other uses section. I can see that code flag alpha is referred to as the 'A' flag in an earlier section and if you follow the link to
International maritime signal flags, you can work out that it is used in signalling to spell the letter 'A', but this article doesn't explicitly state that anywhere, other than the sentence that I restored. My preference would be to keep that to make absolutely clear the use to spell 'A' without having to follow a link to another page, but if others feel it's superfluous, I won't object if it's re-removed. --
RexxS (
talk)
22:50, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
After trying to find the exact boater distances and the specific boater safety rules for this topic, I am getting extremely annoyed by the variability of all the rules. They can vary from country to country, and in the USA, from state to state.
The whole subject matter is a mess, so I guess it's no wonder boaters often "don't follow the rules", because there is apparently no universal, global, UN-ratified standard that every country follows.
As an encyclopedia, it is entirely appropriate to try to sort out this matter and document ALL the various rule differences here, with citations of course. -- DMahalko ( talk) 19:50, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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