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Why Gibraltans don't want to become part of Spain: This is a complicated issue that ties into the modernization of the Gibraltan consitution, but let me try and answer it alone:
I would also recomment Peter Gold's excellent work, including: Gold, P. Sovereignty Negotiations and Gibraltar’s Military Facilities: How Two “Red Line” Issues Became Three in Diplomacy and Statecraft 15, pages 375-384, 2004.
--
Magicmike 16:23, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Point 2 is not valid as the British military spending is only about 5% of the economy. You allegations of smuggling are baseless. There are a significant number of Spaniards who buy tobacco in Gibraltar and then smuggle it into Spain. They are known locally as Matuteras. There have been cases of Guardia Civiles taking bribes to allow this activity.
We have no historical links with Spain, nor do we wish to have any other than those of European neighbours.
I have no idea what you mean by "fraternalistic deprivation".
-- Gibraltarian 10:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Currently this page includes material removed from the main Gibraltar page. The article needs tidying up and adding to. Jongarrettuk 21:05, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Could someone provide a link to a news story on this issue? Ejrrjs 02:05, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The adjective is Gibraltarian, not 'Gibraltan'. If you can't get that right, what chance do you have of being taken seriously by Gibraltarians?
As for smuggling, this is a thriving trade in Spanish-controlled Ceuta and Melilla. If you've ever visited Gibraltar, you will notice that one of the first things you see when you cross the border from Spain is a CEPSA petrol station - CEPSA being a Spanish petrol company. All the staff working there and nearly all the customers are Spanish. Looks like Spanish companies are benefiting from this 'parasite economy'!
And, what do you mean by fraternalistic deprivation? Feeling let down by the British? Put it in plain English! Quiensabe 19:18, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The article claims that there is a law against fast launches. From memory, the law was passed after the Spanish protests. So there was a problem and it was solved. If so, please correct the article. -- Error 00:52, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The law was introduced after protests from the people of Gibraltar. Spain has no such law, and thses vessels are now based in Spanish ports, and still undertaking smuggling activities, bringing Cannanbis & Tobacco from Morocco & Ceuta. These does not seem to worry the spanish government.-- Gibraltarian 13:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Gibraltarian insists on removing information that, although might be subject to discussion, clearly show the Spanish position. Here it is:
Spain claims that Gibraltar extended beyond the originally territorial boundaries agreed in the Treaties of Utrecht (they only quote the "port, fortifications, and forts" and not the isthmus). This includes the so-called Neutral Zone over which the airport and part of the harbour was built. Spain has pushed for joint administration of the airport.
If Gibraltarian wants to keep the NPOV, I invite him to show Gibraltarian and UK position, not to remove uncomfortable information. -- Ecemaml 14:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Again, which is your interpretation of the UK occupation of the isthmus? I'm just giving the one of the Spanish government, including a mention of the Treaty of Utrecht, which does not cede at all the isthmus. Again, I repeat what the NPOV is:
Being crystal clear is your interpretation. The interpretation of the Spanish government is the opposite. And showing both sides of the dispute is what is called NPOV. I quote from Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view:
Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its "best shot" at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange.
Therefore, I will call for an arbitration with regard to your attitude. -- Ecemaml 18:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's the point. The so-called neutral zone is not foreseen in the Treaty of Utrecht. Because of that, the Spanish government claims that such zone has been ilegally occupied by UK. I'd like to see the UK/Gibraltarian version instead of just removing what seems to be be confortable. -- Ecemaml 15:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The only "source" is mischievousness, and a desire to create discord from Ecemaml troll. Utrecht does indeed cede the area in question, and he knows this, and this has been dealt with elsewhere. Utrecht ceded Gibraltar "together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging;".....there were such "fortifications and forts" along the line of the frontier. It was also standard practise in International Law that territory was counted as up to 2 cannon shots distance. WP is NOT, repeat NOT a discussion forum. It is not the place for you to invent or regurgitate nonsense about Gibraltar, and me to have to spend my days searching for references to prove you wrong, when you know full well that you talk nonsense in the first place. From anyone else I could assume good faith........from Ecemaml troll I know it is pure malicious intent.-- Gibraltarian 17:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Further reading; http://www.gibnet.com/texts/neutral.htm http://www.gibnet.com/texts/vog1.htm
OK Ecemaml and Gibraltarian, there are a few wikipedia policies that are relevant here:
Simply reverting each other's edits will not be tolerated. If it continues and discussion does not take place, all Gibraltar pages will be protected until everything gets sorted out.
If you would like to make changes to the article, I suggest that you propse them here before implementing them. If at all possible, include at least one reference that supports your text. Simply stating that "Some people think this" or "It has been said that" is not acceptable. -- Spangineer es (háblame) 20:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
As you can understand, I won't enter your game. You're lucky enough since it seems that in en: the acceptable threshold on personal attacks is notably higher that in es:. However, you edits are quite useful indeed, since nowadays, anyone can easily understand why you're been blocked in es:.
With regard to your allegations, it's quite funny that you talk about decency and especially since you claim that It would be unfair for me to write an article accusing someone of something by adding "Some people have said..." Do you have anything to add about your edit in http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Melilla_border_fence&diff=25546790&oldid=25061633? Or about your "neutral" edition in es:España ( http://es.wikipedia.org/?title=Espa%C3%B1a&diff=prev&oldid=1456015).
You'd better stick to the questions, provide appropriate sources and let this story end. Finally, some of your statements seems quite surprising, such as For example, Ecemaml has recently accepted that what he has been told all his life about Rooke's part in the taking of Gibraltar is not true. First of all, I've not said anything about Gibraltar in my whole life. It's a matter that usually is not discussed neither is too much interesting (Franco died thirty years ago, you know). When I began to investigate about this issue I usually found such a statement. After your insistence, I began a proper investigation, bought a book and found out that it was in fact untrue. That's what I'm doing, contrasting sources. On the other hand, you don't seem to be interested in finding out how many propaganda the article has: mentions to the Treaty of Seville, to an unknown anti-nuclear policy.... That's the difference between you and me: you verbaly abuse, shout and believe that all Gibraltarians say is true while I'm open to verify everything. As you haven't provided any source or indication against, I'll upload all the contents to the relevant articles in some days-time. -- Ecemaml 16:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Now, to both of you: I don't think Ecemaml's edit here was helpful. Apparently Gibraltarian believes that what Ecemaml wrote is not true. Assuming that he has a reference to back himself up, that information should not be presented as truth, but rather as one perspective out of several. A more NPOV version of the paragraph might be:
Is that text that you can both agree on? The idea here is to allow both of you to include your perspectives, but not to write as if one perspective is better than another. -- Spangineer es (háblame) 21:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope this item is clearer now (I'll go on looking for sources for the rest of items). Please, change the order of the sentences or the phrasing, move the places where the sources should be inserted... but please, don't remove the information. It is sourced and verifiable -- Ecemaml 07:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I'll try to summarise all the disagreement points. I'll develop them step by step, since my spare time is not as large as needed (please, wait for the whole of the arguments):
Where?
Disputed status of Gibraltar
My suggestion: leaving it this way (the Spanish government explicitly rejects the use of the term "restriction" since it usually involves a sense of condemnation and use "measures" instead).
Rationale: although
Gibraltarian insists on removing the sentence, it expresses the point of view of the Spanish government and is explicitly identified (i.e. not presented as a fact)
Sources:
Status: argumentation and some sourcing finished -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
My suggestion: leaving it as is now: The beginning of the English/British occupation of Gibraltar has been over the time imprecise. Sometimes, even the British or the Gibraltarians dates the begining of British sovereignty in 1704 (for instance, "
History of the British Possessions in the Mediterranean: Comprising Gibraltar, Malta, Gozo,...", by Robert Montgomery Martin, Whittaker & co. 1837, state: ...the Prince of Hesse took possesion of the gates of Gibraltar... Gibraltar has ever since continued in the hands of the English...). On the other hand, even from the 18th century, Spanish sources stated that immediateley after the takeover of the city, sir
George Rooke, the British admiral, on his own responsibility caused the British flag to be hoisted, and took possession of the Rock in name of
Queen Anne, whose government ratified the occupation (the story is told by the Marquis of San Felipe in his book "Comentarios de la guerra de España e historia de su rey Phelipe V el animoso" (Genoa, 1725), quoted in
"Historia de Algeciras. Moderna y Contemporánea", pg. 17, Mario Ocaña, Diputación de Cádiz, Cádiz, 2001. Such story is widely spread in Spanish propaganda. However, it is proved now that this version as apocryphal since no contemporary source accounts it. Furthermore, such a fact would have caused a big crisis in the alliance supporting the Archduke Charles (see "
Gibraltar. La razón y la fuerza", pg. 90, by Isidro Sepúlveda, Ed. Alianza Editorial, 2004, in
Spanish).
Rationale: The story is widely spread in Spain (it is mentioned by Isidro Sepúlveda stating that it's a legend; on the other hand, other sources such as "
History of the British Possessions in the Mediterranean: Comprising Gibraltar, Malta, Gozo,...", by Robert Montgomery Martin, Whittaker & co. 1837, state: ...the Prince of Hesse took possesion of the gates of Gibraltar... Gibraltar has ever since continued in the hands of the English... (which can be interpreted as if the British sovereignty dates back to 1704). I don't see any argument to deleting it. Furthermore, not explicitly talking about them would lead to further additions and new edit wars. Futhermore, articles such as
Governor of Gibraltar dates the "British occupation" to the conquest date.
Furhter information about the first years of the ocuppied city are also welcome (when the Prince of Hesse left the city, when Dutch forces did the same...)
Sources:
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
My suggestion: see above
Rationale: Spanish sources account the memories of what happened in Gibraltar between 1704 and 1714, by the priest Juan Romero de Figueroa (the priest in charge of the Cathedral). The narration of the large column of Gibraltarians getting out the city, the small number of inhabitants remaining in Gibraltar, the loot of the properties left by the refugees is his. Juan Romero was one of the ones who remained in Gibraltar, and the last Spanish to be buried in the Cathedral (1720).
Sources:
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished from my side -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
Disputed status of Gibraltar
My suggestion (containing the Spain's POV): Gibraltar nowadays contains a 800-metre section of the isthmus that links the Rock with mainland. Spain does not acknowledge British sovereignity over Gibraltar beyond what the Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht explicitly establishes, since it only ceded dominion over the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging (
Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht). Therefore, as for the isthmus, Spain considers that such an area was occupied by force by the UK since the 19th century, and that mentioned occupation did not grant UK sovereignity over it, according to International Law. For the same reason, British sovereignity is not acknowledged by Spain, considering itself instead to be owner of the territory. Futhermore, on December 2, 1987, in a joint British-Spanish declaration about the use of the airport, as well as in several EU acts, the UK has admitted that a controversy exists with Spain over the sovereignity of the isthmus (The ... arrangements ... are understood to be without prejudice to the respective legal positions of Spain and the United Kingdom with regard to the dispute over sovereignty over the territory in which the airport is situated.
Joint Declaration on Airport (of 2 December 1987)).
Trying to translate, sorry for my English.... Cheers.
es:usuario:OrlandoSM) Fixing translation a bit. --
Spangineer
es
(háblame)
14:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
(the Gibraltar/UK point of view):
Rationale: the Spanish POV is accurately described by the papers by the Spanish Foreign Office. Even the UK documentation admits that there is a controversy with Spain over the sovereignity of the isthmus.
Sources:
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished from my side -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
Spain,
Disputed status of Gibraltar and
History of Gibraltar
What Gibraltarian includes:
My suggestion:
Rationale: Obviously, Gibraltarian's edition breaks the NPOV (First, and most importantly, consider what it means to say that unbiased writing presents conflicting views without asserting them. Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views)
Sources:
Status: to be developed and sourced -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?:
Disputed status of Gibraltar
Current version: Similarly the
UN Charter (which is Primary International Law) guarantees the right to
self-determination of all peoples. The UK government and Gibraltarians point out that article 103 of the Charter overrules and anulls the "reversionary clause". However, the Spanish government claims that the right to self-determination does not apply due to the territorial integrity of nations. This controversy, they claim, applies to the territorial integrity of Spain, since Gibraltar is a Britain colony in Spain's soil. The UK & Gibraltar Governments point out that since the territory was ceded in 1713 it ceased to be Spanish territory and is in fact a British Colony on British soil.
My proposal: The UK government and Gibraltarians state that the Spanish reclamation has no base appealing to the right to self-determination of all peoples, guaranteed by the UN, according to the resolution 1514 (XV), of 14 December 1960, containing the Declaration on the granting of independence to colonial countries and people. Especifically, section 2 (all peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development). Furthermore, any additional right that Spain could claim by virtue of the "reversionary" clause contained in the Treaty of Utrecht, the UK government and Gibraltarians point out that article 103 of the UN Charter (In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail) overrules and anulls the "reversionary clause".
On the other hand, the traditional Spain position relies in the appeal to the territorial integrity. Such principle complements the right to self-determination stated by the UN resolution 1514 (XV). According to its section 6, Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations. During the sixties, Spain obtained the support of the UN General Assembly in their UN resolutions 2231 (XXI) ("Question of Gibraltar") and 2353 (XXII) ("Question of Gibraltar"). Both are similar and state that Considering that any colonial situation which partially or completely destroys the national unity and territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and especially with paragraph 6 of Resolution 1514 (XV) of the General Assembly ... Invites the Governments of Spain and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to resume without delay the negotiations provided for in General Assembly Resolutions 2070 (XX) and 2231 (XXI), with a view to putting an end to the colonial situation in Gibraltar and to safeguarding the interests of the population upon termination of that situation. From such a point of view, Gibraltarians would be mere settlers from Britain and only their interest, not their wishes (as the right self-determination would involve), should be safeguarded.
Rationale: Both positions are shown.
Sources: UN docs mentioned in the text
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished --
Ecemaml
19:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
Current version: A small group of Gibraltarians, known as the palomos or 'doves', advocated a political settlement with Spain, and met with Spanish officials in secret to try and bring this about. This provoked widespread public hostility and civil unrest.
My suggestion: A small group of Gibraltarians, known as the palomos or 'doves', advocated a political settlement with Spain, and met with Spanish Foreign Office officials (a meeting was even held with the very Spanish Foreign Secretary) to try and bring this about ("
Informe sobre Gibraltar. 1996", pg. 42, several authors, INCIPE). This provoked widespread public hostility in Gibraltar (with attacks to their homes and properties,
Rock's voters signal rejection of Spanish deal, at The Guardian) and civil unrest. Even now, palomos has not been "forgiven" and are still called traitors.
Rationale:
Sources: those mentioned in the text
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished --
Ecemaml
07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
Current version: 1729: At the end of the Anglo-Spanish War of 1727-1729, the Treaty of Seville allowed Britain to keep Port Mahon and Gibraltar, and stipulated a strip of land of width "600 toises, being more than 2 cannon shots distance between the British guns and the Spanish guns" be considered "the neutral ground".
1908: The British constructed a fence to demarcate the border of the colony and did it at the neutral territory. According to the British government the neutral zone defined in the Treaty of Seville could be meant as having two halves, one belonging to Spain and other to the UK.
My suggestion: 1729: At the end of the Anglo-Spanish War of 1727-1729, the Treaty of Seville confirming all previous treaties (including the Treaty of Utrecht) allowed Britain to keep Menorca and Gibraltar
1908: The British constructed a fence to demarcate the border of the colony and did it at the neutral territory. According to the British government the neutral zone left by the Spanish troops after the second siege of Gibraltar (1729) could be meant as having two halves, one belonging to Spain and other to the UK.
Rationale: The mention to the Treaty of Seville seems apocryphal. No sources are provided. The online sources I've found state that no explicit mention to Gibraltar was made in the treaty. Same for all my written Spanish sources. For example: in "
The Speeches of the Right Honourable the Earl of Chatham in the Houses of Lords and Commons", by William Pitt (1848), it is said that ... all former treaties were confirmed... The treaty passed over in total silence the claim of Spain to Gibraltar... while in "
Historia de Gibraltar y de su campo", by Francisco Maria Montero (1860), it is said that Nothing was said in the treaty about the city of Gibraltar, however confirming former treaties
Sources: those mentioned in the text
Status: developed and sourced --
Ecemaml
14:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?:
History of Gibraltar -
Disputed status of Gibraltar
Current version:
2000 May -
2001 May: the
nuclear submarine
HMS Tireless (S88) was repaired in Gibraltar. This caused diplomatic tension with Spain, which claimed to have an anti-
nuclear policy, albeit never having raised objections when nuclear propelled vessels enter Spanish ports.
Another issue of contention was the repair of the nuclear submarine, HMS Tireless. Spain claims to have a non-nuclear policy, however Nuclear powered vessels regularly enter Spanish ports (in particular Rota) without protest from the Spanish government. Despite many protests, the Gibraltar Government allowed the work to be done after employing its own experts to confirm it was safe. The submarine was in Gibraltar for a year before leaving, during which the repair was successfully completed without incident.
My suggestion:
2000 May -
2001 May: the
nuclear submarine
HMS Tireless (S88) was repaired in Gibraltar. This caused diplomatic tension with Spain, which expressed its concern about the effective safety for the inhabitants of Gibraltar and those living in its hinterland -some 250,000 people (
Press conference of the Spanish Foreign Secretary, Mr. Pique in London, of 2001 January 24). The inhabitants of the area saw this repair as a precedent of future repair operations in Gibraltar. The Gibraltar government has accussed Spain of using this incident as an excuse to go on reclaiming the sovereignty over Gibraltar
Another issue of contention was the repair of the nuclear submarine, HMS Tireless. Spain has expressed its concern about the effective safety for the inhabitants of Gibraltar and those living in its hinterland -some 250,000 people ( Press conference of the Spanish Foreign Secretary, Mr. Pique in London, of 2001 January 24). The inhabitants of the area saw this repair as a precedent of future repair operations in Gibraltar. The Gibraltar government has accussed Spain of using this incident as an excuse to go on reclaiming the sovereignty over Gibraltar. Despite many protests, the Gibraltar Government allowed the work to be done after employing its own experts to confirm it was safe. The submarine was in Gibraltar for a year before leaving, during which the repair was successfully completed without incident.
Rationale: I don't have any source about Spain supporting its "concern" on an anti-nuclear policy but on the safety concerns (mainly driven by the inhabitants of the bay of Algeciras). Such an argumentation seems a piece of propaganda.
Sources: those mentioned in the text
Status: developed and sourced. --
Ecemaml
10:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
And that's all right now -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
If this article is protected, it should have the relevant tag placed on it. Also there is glaring error in the "See Also" section, the Sovereignty of the Falkland Islands is disputed by the UK and Argentina, not Spain! Astrotrain 22:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Why on earth has this been protected? The Ecemaml troll strikes again!!! I also notice that the troll was allowed to revert to HIS warped view, before the protection.
The spanish government has NO problem with the word "restriction" as they use it themselves frequently. This is merely a projection of Ecemaml's OWN sensitivities. If he is embarassed or ashamed at his government's behaviour (as well he should be) then that is his problem. But saying that "the spanish government rejects the use of the word "restriction"" when they themselves use it is clearly FALSE. His argument is pure semantics and sophistry. A restriction is a restriction is a restriction. While a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, a rotton cabbage by any other name would still stink.
The Ecemaml troll put his arguments, I corrected spelling and grammar, and added the alternative POV. Apparently the troll objects to this. While he maintains his unjustifiable exclusion of the whole of Gibraltar on .es, he proves his malicious intent, so I really don't care two hoots what his position is. I am entitled to have mine too, AND to post it. This needs to be unblocked straight away. -- Gibraltarian 14:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The people of Gibraltar voted 'No' in a referendum a few years ago to any dual-sovereignty agreement.Both the Governments of Great Britain & Spain have an obligation to respect the referendum result, which is the will of the Gibraltarian people. - ( Aidan Work 01:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC))
Going to unprotect the article. It's been a week and it looks like some progress has been made. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 07:04, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
BTW, as Gibraltarian seems to have real problems to look for a source, I'm trying to to that. It seems that José Pons wrote an article in the Gibraltar Chronicle (2004, August 4th) under the headline "A year of hope". According to infuriated right-wing papers in Spain [8], he said something like this: "los españoles debemos aceptar que hoy en día Gibraltar no es español, salvo el istmo, que quizá lo sea algún día, y ninguna aproximación será posible si los gibraltareños no nos quieren" (aproximate translation: "The Spaniards must nowadays accept that Gibraltar is not Spanish, but the isthmus, which maybe will some day, and that no approach will be possible if the Gibraltarian people does not want us"). A more neutral explaination on the article, unfortunately in Spanish, can be seen here. It's easy to look for a source, Gibraltarian, isn't it? -- Ecemaml 10:56, 20 November 2005 (UTC) PS: the Gibraltarian friends labeled the Pons' article as "the usual crap" [9] PS2: I recommend the reading of this article. I think it shows quite clearly the current Spanish government positions [10]
--
Undoubtedly the 'Pons Article' IS the same old crap, and its in Spanish. If you want to translate it into English I'll add it to my website along with an explanation of WHY its nonsense. Ill informed nonsense like that certainly does not belong here. - GibNews 20.16UTC 10 DEC 2005
Gibraltarian pretends that the current version of the article is neutral and accurate. You can see an edition that introduces the Spanish POV in Disputed status of Gibraltar/temp, according to the information provided in the section #Disagreements. Please note that as Gibraltarian has not provided any verifiable source, the accuracy of his statements, event when merely supporting British/Gibraltarian POV is doubtful. -- Ecemaml 09:43, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Wikipedians SHOULD work together, however your conduct (particualarly in the STILL continuing blockade of Gibraltar participation in .es) proves that you are not a "wikipedian", merely a troll with a destructive agenda. It is not possible to work with anyone on that basis. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder (an entire potato plantation more like) about the fact that the people of Gibraltar have successfully resisted your country's attempts to annex ours. Live with it. Do not come here under the guise of "neutrality" in order to spread your lies and propaganda. It is perfectly possible (and IMHO) preferable for something to be worded in neutral language, reflecting the facts, but not favouring any opinion. You clearly have no concept of neutrality.....merely a warped mind inspired by Franco.-- Gibraltarian 14:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Charter of the United Nations:
Some of Gibraltarian's assertions on the UN Charter can be misleading:
-- Error 03:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't see any difference. The mention that I introduced about how "enshrined" the territorial integrity was just a parody of the Gibraltarian insistence on adding such appreciation to the text. Traditional Spanish arguments has relayed in the "territorial integrity". Gibraltarian arguments talks about "self-determination". Both concepts appear in the UN Charter and are further developed in 1514 (if I don't badly remember the number of the resolution). That's all that has to be mentioned, without any appreciation. We're not here to demostrate who is right or wrong (not me, at least), but to show the argumentations of each side -- Ecemaml 09:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Why Gibraltans don't want to become part of Spain: This is a complicated issue that ties into the modernization of the Gibraltan consitution, but let me try and answer it alone:
I would also recomment Peter Gold's excellent work, including: Gold, P. Sovereignty Negotiations and Gibraltar’s Military Facilities: How Two “Red Line” Issues Became Three in Diplomacy and Statecraft 15, pages 375-384, 2004.
--
Magicmike 16:23, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Point 2 is not valid as the British military spending is only about 5% of the economy. You allegations of smuggling are baseless. There are a significant number of Spaniards who buy tobacco in Gibraltar and then smuggle it into Spain. They are known locally as Matuteras. There have been cases of Guardia Civiles taking bribes to allow this activity.
We have no historical links with Spain, nor do we wish to have any other than those of European neighbours.
I have no idea what you mean by "fraternalistic deprivation".
-- Gibraltarian 10:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Currently this page includes material removed from the main Gibraltar page. The article needs tidying up and adding to. Jongarrettuk 21:05, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Could someone provide a link to a news story on this issue? Ejrrjs 02:05, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The adjective is Gibraltarian, not 'Gibraltan'. If you can't get that right, what chance do you have of being taken seriously by Gibraltarians?
As for smuggling, this is a thriving trade in Spanish-controlled Ceuta and Melilla. If you've ever visited Gibraltar, you will notice that one of the first things you see when you cross the border from Spain is a CEPSA petrol station - CEPSA being a Spanish petrol company. All the staff working there and nearly all the customers are Spanish. Looks like Spanish companies are benefiting from this 'parasite economy'!
And, what do you mean by fraternalistic deprivation? Feeling let down by the British? Put it in plain English! Quiensabe 19:18, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The article claims that there is a law against fast launches. From memory, the law was passed after the Spanish protests. So there was a problem and it was solved. If so, please correct the article. -- Error 00:52, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The law was introduced after protests from the people of Gibraltar. Spain has no such law, and thses vessels are now based in Spanish ports, and still undertaking smuggling activities, bringing Cannanbis & Tobacco from Morocco & Ceuta. These does not seem to worry the spanish government.-- Gibraltarian 13:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Gibraltarian insists on removing information that, although might be subject to discussion, clearly show the Spanish position. Here it is:
Spain claims that Gibraltar extended beyond the originally territorial boundaries agreed in the Treaties of Utrecht (they only quote the "port, fortifications, and forts" and not the isthmus). This includes the so-called Neutral Zone over which the airport and part of the harbour was built. Spain has pushed for joint administration of the airport.
If Gibraltarian wants to keep the NPOV, I invite him to show Gibraltarian and UK position, not to remove uncomfortable information. -- Ecemaml 14:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Again, which is your interpretation of the UK occupation of the isthmus? I'm just giving the one of the Spanish government, including a mention of the Treaty of Utrecht, which does not cede at all the isthmus. Again, I repeat what the NPOV is:
Being crystal clear is your interpretation. The interpretation of the Spanish government is the opposite. And showing both sides of the dispute is what is called NPOV. I quote from Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view:
Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its "best shot" at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange.
Therefore, I will call for an arbitration with regard to your attitude. -- Ecemaml 18:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's the point. The so-called neutral zone is not foreseen in the Treaty of Utrecht. Because of that, the Spanish government claims that such zone has been ilegally occupied by UK. I'd like to see the UK/Gibraltarian version instead of just removing what seems to be be confortable. -- Ecemaml 15:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The only "source" is mischievousness, and a desire to create discord from Ecemaml troll. Utrecht does indeed cede the area in question, and he knows this, and this has been dealt with elsewhere. Utrecht ceded Gibraltar "together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging;".....there were such "fortifications and forts" along the line of the frontier. It was also standard practise in International Law that territory was counted as up to 2 cannon shots distance. WP is NOT, repeat NOT a discussion forum. It is not the place for you to invent or regurgitate nonsense about Gibraltar, and me to have to spend my days searching for references to prove you wrong, when you know full well that you talk nonsense in the first place. From anyone else I could assume good faith........from Ecemaml troll I know it is pure malicious intent.-- Gibraltarian 17:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Further reading; http://www.gibnet.com/texts/neutral.htm http://www.gibnet.com/texts/vog1.htm
OK Ecemaml and Gibraltarian, there are a few wikipedia policies that are relevant here:
Simply reverting each other's edits will not be tolerated. If it continues and discussion does not take place, all Gibraltar pages will be protected until everything gets sorted out.
If you would like to make changes to the article, I suggest that you propse them here before implementing them. If at all possible, include at least one reference that supports your text. Simply stating that "Some people think this" or "It has been said that" is not acceptable. -- Spangineer es (háblame) 20:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
As you can understand, I won't enter your game. You're lucky enough since it seems that in en: the acceptable threshold on personal attacks is notably higher that in es:. However, you edits are quite useful indeed, since nowadays, anyone can easily understand why you're been blocked in es:.
With regard to your allegations, it's quite funny that you talk about decency and especially since you claim that It would be unfair for me to write an article accusing someone of something by adding "Some people have said..." Do you have anything to add about your edit in http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Melilla_border_fence&diff=25546790&oldid=25061633? Or about your "neutral" edition in es:España ( http://es.wikipedia.org/?title=Espa%C3%B1a&diff=prev&oldid=1456015).
You'd better stick to the questions, provide appropriate sources and let this story end. Finally, some of your statements seems quite surprising, such as For example, Ecemaml has recently accepted that what he has been told all his life about Rooke's part in the taking of Gibraltar is not true. First of all, I've not said anything about Gibraltar in my whole life. It's a matter that usually is not discussed neither is too much interesting (Franco died thirty years ago, you know). When I began to investigate about this issue I usually found such a statement. After your insistence, I began a proper investigation, bought a book and found out that it was in fact untrue. That's what I'm doing, contrasting sources. On the other hand, you don't seem to be interested in finding out how many propaganda the article has: mentions to the Treaty of Seville, to an unknown anti-nuclear policy.... That's the difference between you and me: you verbaly abuse, shout and believe that all Gibraltarians say is true while I'm open to verify everything. As you haven't provided any source or indication against, I'll upload all the contents to the relevant articles in some days-time. -- Ecemaml 16:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Now, to both of you: I don't think Ecemaml's edit here was helpful. Apparently Gibraltarian believes that what Ecemaml wrote is not true. Assuming that he has a reference to back himself up, that information should not be presented as truth, but rather as one perspective out of several. A more NPOV version of the paragraph might be:
Is that text that you can both agree on? The idea here is to allow both of you to include your perspectives, but not to write as if one perspective is better than another. -- Spangineer es (háblame) 21:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope this item is clearer now (I'll go on looking for sources for the rest of items). Please, change the order of the sentences or the phrasing, move the places where the sources should be inserted... but please, don't remove the information. It is sourced and verifiable -- Ecemaml 07:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I'll try to summarise all the disagreement points. I'll develop them step by step, since my spare time is not as large as needed (please, wait for the whole of the arguments):
Where?
Disputed status of Gibraltar
My suggestion: leaving it this way (the Spanish government explicitly rejects the use of the term "restriction" since it usually involves a sense of condemnation and use "measures" instead).
Rationale: although
Gibraltarian insists on removing the sentence, it expresses the point of view of the Spanish government and is explicitly identified (i.e. not presented as a fact)
Sources:
Status: argumentation and some sourcing finished -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
My suggestion: leaving it as is now: The beginning of the English/British occupation of Gibraltar has been over the time imprecise. Sometimes, even the British or the Gibraltarians dates the begining of British sovereignty in 1704 (for instance, "
History of the British Possessions in the Mediterranean: Comprising Gibraltar, Malta, Gozo,...", by Robert Montgomery Martin, Whittaker & co. 1837, state: ...the Prince of Hesse took possesion of the gates of Gibraltar... Gibraltar has ever since continued in the hands of the English...). On the other hand, even from the 18th century, Spanish sources stated that immediateley after the takeover of the city, sir
George Rooke, the British admiral, on his own responsibility caused the British flag to be hoisted, and took possession of the Rock in name of
Queen Anne, whose government ratified the occupation (the story is told by the Marquis of San Felipe in his book "Comentarios de la guerra de España e historia de su rey Phelipe V el animoso" (Genoa, 1725), quoted in
"Historia de Algeciras. Moderna y Contemporánea", pg. 17, Mario Ocaña, Diputación de Cádiz, Cádiz, 2001. Such story is widely spread in Spanish propaganda. However, it is proved now that this version as apocryphal since no contemporary source accounts it. Furthermore, such a fact would have caused a big crisis in the alliance supporting the Archduke Charles (see "
Gibraltar. La razón y la fuerza", pg. 90, by Isidro Sepúlveda, Ed. Alianza Editorial, 2004, in
Spanish).
Rationale: The story is widely spread in Spain (it is mentioned by Isidro Sepúlveda stating that it's a legend; on the other hand, other sources such as "
History of the British Possessions in the Mediterranean: Comprising Gibraltar, Malta, Gozo,...", by Robert Montgomery Martin, Whittaker & co. 1837, state: ...the Prince of Hesse took possesion of the gates of Gibraltar... Gibraltar has ever since continued in the hands of the English... (which can be interpreted as if the British sovereignty dates back to 1704). I don't see any argument to deleting it. Furthermore, not explicitly talking about them would lead to further additions and new edit wars. Futhermore, articles such as
Governor of Gibraltar dates the "British occupation" to the conquest date.
Furhter information about the first years of the ocuppied city are also welcome (when the Prince of Hesse left the city, when Dutch forces did the same...)
Sources:
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
My suggestion: see above
Rationale: Spanish sources account the memories of what happened in Gibraltar between 1704 and 1714, by the priest Juan Romero de Figueroa (the priest in charge of the Cathedral). The narration of the large column of Gibraltarians getting out the city, the small number of inhabitants remaining in Gibraltar, the loot of the properties left by the refugees is his. Juan Romero was one of the ones who remained in Gibraltar, and the last Spanish to be buried in the Cathedral (1720).
Sources:
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished from my side -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
Disputed status of Gibraltar
My suggestion (containing the Spain's POV): Gibraltar nowadays contains a 800-metre section of the isthmus that links the Rock with mainland. Spain does not acknowledge British sovereignity over Gibraltar beyond what the Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht explicitly establishes, since it only ceded dominion over the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging (
Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht). Therefore, as for the isthmus, Spain considers that such an area was occupied by force by the UK since the 19th century, and that mentioned occupation did not grant UK sovereignity over it, according to International Law. For the same reason, British sovereignity is not acknowledged by Spain, considering itself instead to be owner of the territory. Futhermore, on December 2, 1987, in a joint British-Spanish declaration about the use of the airport, as well as in several EU acts, the UK has admitted that a controversy exists with Spain over the sovereignity of the isthmus (The ... arrangements ... are understood to be without prejudice to the respective legal positions of Spain and the United Kingdom with regard to the dispute over sovereignty over the territory in which the airport is situated.
Joint Declaration on Airport (of 2 December 1987)).
Trying to translate, sorry for my English.... Cheers.
es:usuario:OrlandoSM) Fixing translation a bit. --
Spangineer
es
(háblame)
14:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
(the Gibraltar/UK point of view):
Rationale: the Spanish POV is accurately described by the papers by the Spanish Foreign Office. Even the UK documentation admits that there is a controversy with Spain over the sovereignity of the isthmus.
Sources:
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished from my side -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
Spain,
Disputed status of Gibraltar and
History of Gibraltar
What Gibraltarian includes:
My suggestion:
Rationale: Obviously, Gibraltarian's edition breaks the NPOV (First, and most importantly, consider what it means to say that unbiased writing presents conflicting views without asserting them. Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views)
Sources:
Status: to be developed and sourced -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?:
Disputed status of Gibraltar
Current version: Similarly the
UN Charter (which is Primary International Law) guarantees the right to
self-determination of all peoples. The UK government and Gibraltarians point out that article 103 of the Charter overrules and anulls the "reversionary clause". However, the Spanish government claims that the right to self-determination does not apply due to the territorial integrity of nations. This controversy, they claim, applies to the territorial integrity of Spain, since Gibraltar is a Britain colony in Spain's soil. The UK & Gibraltar Governments point out that since the territory was ceded in 1713 it ceased to be Spanish territory and is in fact a British Colony on British soil.
My proposal: The UK government and Gibraltarians state that the Spanish reclamation has no base appealing to the right to self-determination of all peoples, guaranteed by the UN, according to the resolution 1514 (XV), of 14 December 1960, containing the Declaration on the granting of independence to colonial countries and people. Especifically, section 2 (all peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development). Furthermore, any additional right that Spain could claim by virtue of the "reversionary" clause contained in the Treaty of Utrecht, the UK government and Gibraltarians point out that article 103 of the UN Charter (In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail) overrules and anulls the "reversionary clause".
On the other hand, the traditional Spain position relies in the appeal to the territorial integrity. Such principle complements the right to self-determination stated by the UN resolution 1514 (XV). According to its section 6, Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations. During the sixties, Spain obtained the support of the UN General Assembly in their UN resolutions 2231 (XXI) ("Question of Gibraltar") and 2353 (XXII) ("Question of Gibraltar"). Both are similar and state that Considering that any colonial situation which partially or completely destroys the national unity and territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and especially with paragraph 6 of Resolution 1514 (XV) of the General Assembly ... Invites the Governments of Spain and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to resume without delay the negotiations provided for in General Assembly Resolutions 2070 (XX) and 2231 (XXI), with a view to putting an end to the colonial situation in Gibraltar and to safeguarding the interests of the population upon termination of that situation. From such a point of view, Gibraltarians would be mere settlers from Britain and only their interest, not their wishes (as the right self-determination would involve), should be safeguarded.
Rationale: Both positions are shown.
Sources: UN docs mentioned in the text
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished --
Ecemaml
19:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
Current version: A small group of Gibraltarians, known as the palomos or 'doves', advocated a political settlement with Spain, and met with Spanish officials in secret to try and bring this about. This provoked widespread public hostility and civil unrest.
My suggestion: A small group of Gibraltarians, known as the palomos or 'doves', advocated a political settlement with Spain, and met with Spanish Foreign Office officials (a meeting was even held with the very Spanish Foreign Secretary) to try and bring this about ("
Informe sobre Gibraltar. 1996", pg. 42, several authors, INCIPE). This provoked widespread public hostility in Gibraltar (with attacks to their homes and properties,
Rock's voters signal rejection of Spanish deal, at The Guardian) and civil unrest. Even now, palomos has not been "forgiven" and are still called traitors.
Rationale:
Sources: those mentioned in the text
Status: argumentation and sourcing finished --
Ecemaml
07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?
History of Gibraltar
Current version: 1729: At the end of the Anglo-Spanish War of 1727-1729, the Treaty of Seville allowed Britain to keep Port Mahon and Gibraltar, and stipulated a strip of land of width "600 toises, being more than 2 cannon shots distance between the British guns and the Spanish guns" be considered "the neutral ground".
1908: The British constructed a fence to demarcate the border of the colony and did it at the neutral territory. According to the British government the neutral zone defined in the Treaty of Seville could be meant as having two halves, one belonging to Spain and other to the UK.
My suggestion: 1729: At the end of the Anglo-Spanish War of 1727-1729, the Treaty of Seville confirming all previous treaties (including the Treaty of Utrecht) allowed Britain to keep Menorca and Gibraltar
1908: The British constructed a fence to demarcate the border of the colony and did it at the neutral territory. According to the British government the neutral zone left by the Spanish troops after the second siege of Gibraltar (1729) could be meant as having two halves, one belonging to Spain and other to the UK.
Rationale: The mention to the Treaty of Seville seems apocryphal. No sources are provided. The online sources I've found state that no explicit mention to Gibraltar was made in the treaty. Same for all my written Spanish sources. For example: in "
The Speeches of the Right Honourable the Earl of Chatham in the Houses of Lords and Commons", by William Pitt (1848), it is said that ... all former treaties were confirmed... The treaty passed over in total silence the claim of Spain to Gibraltar... while in "
Historia de Gibraltar y de su campo", by Francisco Maria Montero (1860), it is said that Nothing was said in the treaty about the city of Gibraltar, however confirming former treaties
Sources: those mentioned in the text
Status: developed and sourced --
Ecemaml
14:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Where?:
History of Gibraltar -
Disputed status of Gibraltar
Current version:
2000 May -
2001 May: the
nuclear submarine
HMS Tireless (S88) was repaired in Gibraltar. This caused diplomatic tension with Spain, which claimed to have an anti-
nuclear policy, albeit never having raised objections when nuclear propelled vessels enter Spanish ports.
Another issue of contention was the repair of the nuclear submarine, HMS Tireless. Spain claims to have a non-nuclear policy, however Nuclear powered vessels regularly enter Spanish ports (in particular Rota) without protest from the Spanish government. Despite many protests, the Gibraltar Government allowed the work to be done after employing its own experts to confirm it was safe. The submarine was in Gibraltar for a year before leaving, during which the repair was successfully completed without incident.
My suggestion:
2000 May -
2001 May: the
nuclear submarine
HMS Tireless (S88) was repaired in Gibraltar. This caused diplomatic tension with Spain, which expressed its concern about the effective safety for the inhabitants of Gibraltar and those living in its hinterland -some 250,000 people (
Press conference of the Spanish Foreign Secretary, Mr. Pique in London, of 2001 January 24). The inhabitants of the area saw this repair as a precedent of future repair operations in Gibraltar. The Gibraltar government has accussed Spain of using this incident as an excuse to go on reclaiming the sovereignty over Gibraltar
Another issue of contention was the repair of the nuclear submarine, HMS Tireless. Spain has expressed its concern about the effective safety for the inhabitants of Gibraltar and those living in its hinterland -some 250,000 people ( Press conference of the Spanish Foreign Secretary, Mr. Pique in London, of 2001 January 24). The inhabitants of the area saw this repair as a precedent of future repair operations in Gibraltar. The Gibraltar government has accussed Spain of using this incident as an excuse to go on reclaiming the sovereignty over Gibraltar. Despite many protests, the Gibraltar Government allowed the work to be done after employing its own experts to confirm it was safe. The submarine was in Gibraltar for a year before leaving, during which the repair was successfully completed without incident.
Rationale: I don't have any source about Spain supporting its "concern" on an anti-nuclear policy but on the safety concerns (mainly driven by the inhabitants of the bay of Algeciras). Such an argumentation seems a piece of propaganda.
Sources: those mentioned in the text
Status: developed and sourced. --
Ecemaml
10:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
And that's all right now -- Ecemaml 07:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
If this article is protected, it should have the relevant tag placed on it. Also there is glaring error in the "See Also" section, the Sovereignty of the Falkland Islands is disputed by the UK and Argentina, not Spain! Astrotrain 22:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Why on earth has this been protected? The Ecemaml troll strikes again!!! I also notice that the troll was allowed to revert to HIS warped view, before the protection.
The spanish government has NO problem with the word "restriction" as they use it themselves frequently. This is merely a projection of Ecemaml's OWN sensitivities. If he is embarassed or ashamed at his government's behaviour (as well he should be) then that is his problem. But saying that "the spanish government rejects the use of the word "restriction"" when they themselves use it is clearly FALSE. His argument is pure semantics and sophistry. A restriction is a restriction is a restriction. While a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, a rotton cabbage by any other name would still stink.
The Ecemaml troll put his arguments, I corrected spelling and grammar, and added the alternative POV. Apparently the troll objects to this. While he maintains his unjustifiable exclusion of the whole of Gibraltar on .es, he proves his malicious intent, so I really don't care two hoots what his position is. I am entitled to have mine too, AND to post it. This needs to be unblocked straight away. -- Gibraltarian 14:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The people of Gibraltar voted 'No' in a referendum a few years ago to any dual-sovereignty agreement.Both the Governments of Great Britain & Spain have an obligation to respect the referendum result, which is the will of the Gibraltarian people. - ( Aidan Work 01:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC))
Going to unprotect the article. It's been a week and it looks like some progress has been made. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 07:04, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
BTW, as Gibraltarian seems to have real problems to look for a source, I'm trying to to that. It seems that José Pons wrote an article in the Gibraltar Chronicle (2004, August 4th) under the headline "A year of hope". According to infuriated right-wing papers in Spain [8], he said something like this: "los españoles debemos aceptar que hoy en día Gibraltar no es español, salvo el istmo, que quizá lo sea algún día, y ninguna aproximación será posible si los gibraltareños no nos quieren" (aproximate translation: "The Spaniards must nowadays accept that Gibraltar is not Spanish, but the isthmus, which maybe will some day, and that no approach will be possible if the Gibraltarian people does not want us"). A more neutral explaination on the article, unfortunately in Spanish, can be seen here. It's easy to look for a source, Gibraltarian, isn't it? -- Ecemaml 10:56, 20 November 2005 (UTC) PS: the Gibraltarian friends labeled the Pons' article as "the usual crap" [9] PS2: I recommend the reading of this article. I think it shows quite clearly the current Spanish government positions [10]
--
Undoubtedly the 'Pons Article' IS the same old crap, and its in Spanish. If you want to translate it into English I'll add it to my website along with an explanation of WHY its nonsense. Ill informed nonsense like that certainly does not belong here. - GibNews 20.16UTC 10 DEC 2005
Gibraltarian pretends that the current version of the article is neutral and accurate. You can see an edition that introduces the Spanish POV in Disputed status of Gibraltar/temp, according to the information provided in the section #Disagreements. Please note that as Gibraltarian has not provided any verifiable source, the accuracy of his statements, event when merely supporting British/Gibraltarian POV is doubtful. -- Ecemaml 09:43, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Wikipedians SHOULD work together, however your conduct (particualarly in the STILL continuing blockade of Gibraltar participation in .es) proves that you are not a "wikipedian", merely a troll with a destructive agenda. It is not possible to work with anyone on that basis. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder (an entire potato plantation more like) about the fact that the people of Gibraltar have successfully resisted your country's attempts to annex ours. Live with it. Do not come here under the guise of "neutrality" in order to spread your lies and propaganda. It is perfectly possible (and IMHO) preferable for something to be worded in neutral language, reflecting the facts, but not favouring any opinion. You clearly have no concept of neutrality.....merely a warped mind inspired by Franco.-- Gibraltarian 14:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Charter of the United Nations:
Some of Gibraltarian's assertions on the UN Charter can be misleading:
-- Error 03:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't see any difference. The mention that I introduced about how "enshrined" the territorial integrity was just a parody of the Gibraltarian insistence on adding such appreciation to the text. Traditional Spanish arguments has relayed in the "territorial integrity". Gibraltarian arguments talks about "self-determination". Both concepts appear in the UN Charter and are further developed in 1514 (if I don't badly remember the number of the resolution). That's all that has to be mentioned, without any appreciation. We're not here to demostrate who is right or wrong (not me, at least), but to show the argumentations of each side -- Ecemaml 09:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)