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This page was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion in May, 2004. The result of that discussion was to keep the article. For an archive of the discussion, see Talk:Disciple/Delete.
I've tried to make this article more encyclopedic by clearly deliminating the various uses of the word disciple. I don't see this as an disambiguation page, but I found that structure very useful. -- Acjelen 01:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no reason to delete it, and expanding on it is a good idea. For instance, a separate extensive definition of "Disciple" as a verb.
I think that this page would work better focusing on the religious connotations and Jesus's disciples, even though this page becomes moderately misnamed then (though the disambig page I just created could then be moved here, and a "disciples of Jesus" page created). The dictionary definition stuff seems somewhat superfluous at the moment. SnowFire 05:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow. This article looks a lot better now. Anyway, I figured I'd bring this over here; I removed the following line-
This seems a bit hyperbolic, almost like an ad. Mr. Camp only gets around 430 hits on Google, so he doesn't seem that important, even if his book was good? Maybe I'm off, but just saying. SnowFire 00:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Odd that there is no mention (as of today) of the clause, "and make disciples of every nation" which is part of the Great Commission as recorded in Matthew 28:18-20. DFH 14:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the word disciple occurs numerous times in the book of Acts to denote the early followers of Jesus, i. e. Christians . See for example, Acts 11:26, part of which reads, And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. DFH 16:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The exact phrase "Discipleship Paradigm" only had 697 hits in Google. Such a low hit count would make me question whether the term should even be mentioned in this article, especially as no citation was given. DFH 16:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Acjelen, as for the link you reverted back into my edit (perhaps you did this by accident?), "Love your neighbor" is not the same topic as "Love one another". If you want to discuss why you want to replace it, please do so before replacing it again. I removed it from an initial anonymous edit for which there was no discussion of why it was added.
I've always been reluctant to have this article split the listing of apostles. Nonetheless, the gospels emphasize an initial calling of three to five apostles, so I can see a justification. I would like, however, the treatment to be brief. All of the apostles (and, in fact, all of the named disciples) have their own articles. - Acjelen 02:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I debated whether to put up a NPOV dispute or a weasel words dispute, but decided that, in my opinion, most of the NPOV issues would be removed along with the weasel words. Things like "...the faith of all modern Christians worldwide." There are a fair amount of these things that I think need to be clarified in this article (ie: ALL Christians? Improbable to the point of untrue. Which ones specifically? Worldwide? Where worldwide?). Thank you Finn zee Fox 04:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
You raise a good question against my wording. I really was just trying to point out the "flowery" language (as you so well put it) and perhaps I used a bad example. However, I do think that it's best to avoid vague, sweeping statements like "all" because I bet you could find at least one branch of Christianity that claims not to identify with the original disciples. Finn zee Fox 06:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you would consider putting up the dispute after discussing it instead of the other way around? Your only claim in its defense is that the words are "flowery", but you give no definition of what that means. One definition I've read of "flowery" is "Full of ornate or grandiloquent expressions; highly embellished: a flowery speech." I have edited, or even authored, a decent portion of the Discipleship section, and while I admit I try my best to give a good, historically hermeneutical description, to give a feel for the interplay of ideas and force that make a disciple different from someone who is not, I do not find terms like "socio-political" do be particularly "grandiloquent". As I read through it now for the first time in a while, I think I could concede that the phrase "the very heart of the ministry of Jesus" is a bit flowery. Changing "heart" to "center" (which I just did) might kill a few flowers :) Other than that, however, I'll need your help in seeing this section as "flowery". As for Acjelen's comment, I agree with his inference. In all my reading on historical theology, I have never come across a Christian sect that does not find the disciples as the pioneers of their sect. Often, many sects (From Catholics and Orthodox to Baptists and even Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses) see themselves as some sort of directly authoritative, spiritual descendants of the original Disciples (particularly the Twelve) as part of their claim to legitimacy. Chrismon 07:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I came across this page and checked out the external links section. I feel that most, if not all, of these links are promotional and don't meet up well with the external links guideline. I thought about being bold and removing them, but wanted to get input from involved editors first. Cheers! TN‑ X- Man 18:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Again with the picture of white Jesus. *sigh*. But seriously, I'll have to do a bit of looking to see what images can be found to represent this period in history; they all seem so similar and unrealistic based on what we know of the region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.29.113.26 ( talk) 03:16, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm adding material to the lead and body. There's a lot of interesting stuff that can go on this page. It needs some citations, too. Like, where did this list of disciples come from? Leadwind ( talk) 04:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Further information that could be added:
Jesus summoned people to discipleship in his earthly ministry. Discipleship with Jesus is marked by specific characteristics.
The term Christian denotes discipleship with Christ.
Alan347 ( talk) 07:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
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There is insufficient connection between the people mentioned in this section and the term "disciple" given. Either the "disciple" nature of these people should be more clearly evidenced, or the section should be removed. 144.138.35.48 ( talk) 06:08, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Editor2020, My very best wishes, Daask, Ret.Prof, SnowFire, and Alan347: hi. It is worth noting that in the vast majority of cases, the disciples are treted as a group (of 2 or 12), or a mass of people, without naming them specifically. This fact is worth mentioning, with an analysis of its significance. Who knows a reliable source?
I have checked on Biblegateway and searched for 'disciple', so this is OR, but quotable scholars must surely have noticed and discussed the issue. There are 265 hits from the New Testament. The vast majority refers to the disciples w/o naming them, as either
The only exceptions are in John (by far the most), Acts (4), and one in Matthew. John is the most generous in this regard. In Acts, all 4 references are to otherwise unknown disciples. Mathew only mentions Joseph of Arimathea explicitly and nominally as a disciple.
The Burial of Jesus:
Matthew 27:57 — When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who was also a disciple of Jesus.
John 19:38 — Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus
John 1:35, 40 — The next day John again was standing with two of his disciples... One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother.
John 6:8 — One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother...
Acts 9:10 — Now there was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias.
Acts 9:36 — ...a disciple whose name was Tabitha, which in Greek is Dorcas.
Acts 16:1 — ...Lystra, where there was a disciple named Timothy...
Acts 21:16 — ...Mnason of Cyprus, an early disciple...
John 11:16 — Thomas...said to his fellow disciples...
John 18:15 — Simon Peter and another disciple...
John 9:28 — A Man Born Blind Receives Sight: "You are his disciple...", but it comes as a direct quote of what the Pharisees are calling the healed man, not as what the evangelist sees him to be.
John 19:26-27, 20:2, 21:7, 21:20+23 — "the disciple whom he/Jesus loved"
Only in the end of the Gospel of John comes an explanation, itself slightly ambiguous, as it is both slightly indirect or possibly added by an editor (it comes at the end of the book, and it can be understood as either a conclusion or explanation to John 21:20-23, which deals with "the disciple whom Jesus loved"; or as a closing word for the entire book), and in the third person, not the first:
John 21:24 — This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true.
Arminden (
talk) 15:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
A teacher of mine claimed that the Greek word μαθητής, usually translated as "disciple" in English-language bibles, is specifically a word from the culture of skilled craftsmen (those who learned how to do their work by working, and usually living, with a master craftsman for a period of years, such as, in the bible, carpenters and fishermen), and should therefore be translated "apprentice" in preference of any other translation. Also that the word implies someone who is a good bit younger than the "master", usually a person in his teenage years. Can someone elucidate on that, if possible within the article. Thanks! -- 79.217.167.85 ( talk) 11:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Disciple (Christianity) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion in May, 2004. The result of that discussion was to keep the article. For an archive of the discussion, see Talk:Disciple/Delete.
I've tried to make this article more encyclopedic by clearly deliminating the various uses of the word disciple. I don't see this as an disambiguation page, but I found that structure very useful. -- Acjelen 01:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no reason to delete it, and expanding on it is a good idea. For instance, a separate extensive definition of "Disciple" as a verb.
I think that this page would work better focusing on the religious connotations and Jesus's disciples, even though this page becomes moderately misnamed then (though the disambig page I just created could then be moved here, and a "disciples of Jesus" page created). The dictionary definition stuff seems somewhat superfluous at the moment. SnowFire 05:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow. This article looks a lot better now. Anyway, I figured I'd bring this over here; I removed the following line-
This seems a bit hyperbolic, almost like an ad. Mr. Camp only gets around 430 hits on Google, so he doesn't seem that important, even if his book was good? Maybe I'm off, but just saying. SnowFire 00:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Odd that there is no mention (as of today) of the clause, "and make disciples of every nation" which is part of the Great Commission as recorded in Matthew 28:18-20. DFH 14:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the word disciple occurs numerous times in the book of Acts to denote the early followers of Jesus, i. e. Christians . See for example, Acts 11:26, part of which reads, And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. DFH 16:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The exact phrase "Discipleship Paradigm" only had 697 hits in Google. Such a low hit count would make me question whether the term should even be mentioned in this article, especially as no citation was given. DFH 16:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Acjelen, as for the link you reverted back into my edit (perhaps you did this by accident?), "Love your neighbor" is not the same topic as "Love one another". If you want to discuss why you want to replace it, please do so before replacing it again. I removed it from an initial anonymous edit for which there was no discussion of why it was added.
I've always been reluctant to have this article split the listing of apostles. Nonetheless, the gospels emphasize an initial calling of three to five apostles, so I can see a justification. I would like, however, the treatment to be brief. All of the apostles (and, in fact, all of the named disciples) have their own articles. - Acjelen 02:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I debated whether to put up a NPOV dispute or a weasel words dispute, but decided that, in my opinion, most of the NPOV issues would be removed along with the weasel words. Things like "...the faith of all modern Christians worldwide." There are a fair amount of these things that I think need to be clarified in this article (ie: ALL Christians? Improbable to the point of untrue. Which ones specifically? Worldwide? Where worldwide?). Thank you Finn zee Fox 04:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
You raise a good question against my wording. I really was just trying to point out the "flowery" language (as you so well put it) and perhaps I used a bad example. However, I do think that it's best to avoid vague, sweeping statements like "all" because I bet you could find at least one branch of Christianity that claims not to identify with the original disciples. Finn zee Fox 06:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you would consider putting up the dispute after discussing it instead of the other way around? Your only claim in its defense is that the words are "flowery", but you give no definition of what that means. One definition I've read of "flowery" is "Full of ornate or grandiloquent expressions; highly embellished: a flowery speech." I have edited, or even authored, a decent portion of the Discipleship section, and while I admit I try my best to give a good, historically hermeneutical description, to give a feel for the interplay of ideas and force that make a disciple different from someone who is not, I do not find terms like "socio-political" do be particularly "grandiloquent". As I read through it now for the first time in a while, I think I could concede that the phrase "the very heart of the ministry of Jesus" is a bit flowery. Changing "heart" to "center" (which I just did) might kill a few flowers :) Other than that, however, I'll need your help in seeing this section as "flowery". As for Acjelen's comment, I agree with his inference. In all my reading on historical theology, I have never come across a Christian sect that does not find the disciples as the pioneers of their sect. Often, many sects (From Catholics and Orthodox to Baptists and even Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses) see themselves as some sort of directly authoritative, spiritual descendants of the original Disciples (particularly the Twelve) as part of their claim to legitimacy. Chrismon 07:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I came across this page and checked out the external links section. I feel that most, if not all, of these links are promotional and don't meet up well with the external links guideline. I thought about being bold and removing them, but wanted to get input from involved editors first. Cheers! TN‑ X- Man 18:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Again with the picture of white Jesus. *sigh*. But seriously, I'll have to do a bit of looking to see what images can be found to represent this period in history; they all seem so similar and unrealistic based on what we know of the region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.29.113.26 ( talk) 03:16, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm adding material to the lead and body. There's a lot of interesting stuff that can go on this page. It needs some citations, too. Like, where did this list of disciples come from? Leadwind ( talk) 04:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Further information that could be added:
Jesus summoned people to discipleship in his earthly ministry. Discipleship with Jesus is marked by specific characteristics.
The term Christian denotes discipleship with Christ.
Alan347 ( talk) 07:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Disciple (Christianity). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:10, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
There is insufficient connection between the people mentioned in this section and the term "disciple" given. Either the "disciple" nature of these people should be more clearly evidenced, or the section should be removed. 144.138.35.48 ( talk) 06:08, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Editor2020, My very best wishes, Daask, Ret.Prof, SnowFire, and Alan347: hi. It is worth noting that in the vast majority of cases, the disciples are treted as a group (of 2 or 12), or a mass of people, without naming them specifically. This fact is worth mentioning, with an analysis of its significance. Who knows a reliable source?
I have checked on Biblegateway and searched for 'disciple', so this is OR, but quotable scholars must surely have noticed and discussed the issue. There are 265 hits from the New Testament. The vast majority refers to the disciples w/o naming them, as either
The only exceptions are in John (by far the most), Acts (4), and one in Matthew. John is the most generous in this regard. In Acts, all 4 references are to otherwise unknown disciples. Mathew only mentions Joseph of Arimathea explicitly and nominally as a disciple.
The Burial of Jesus:
Matthew 27:57 — When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who was also a disciple of Jesus.
John 19:38 — Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus
John 1:35, 40 — The next day John again was standing with two of his disciples... One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother.
John 6:8 — One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother...
Acts 9:10 — Now there was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias.
Acts 9:36 — ...a disciple whose name was Tabitha, which in Greek is Dorcas.
Acts 16:1 — ...Lystra, where there was a disciple named Timothy...
Acts 21:16 — ...Mnason of Cyprus, an early disciple...
John 11:16 — Thomas...said to his fellow disciples...
John 18:15 — Simon Peter and another disciple...
John 9:28 — A Man Born Blind Receives Sight: "You are his disciple...", but it comes as a direct quote of what the Pharisees are calling the healed man, not as what the evangelist sees him to be.
John 19:26-27, 20:2, 21:7, 21:20+23 — "the disciple whom he/Jesus loved"
Only in the end of the Gospel of John comes an explanation, itself slightly ambiguous, as it is both slightly indirect or possibly added by an editor (it comes at the end of the book, and it can be understood as either a conclusion or explanation to John 21:20-23, which deals with "the disciple whom Jesus loved"; or as a closing word for the entire book), and in the third person, not the first:
John 21:24 — This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true.
Arminden (
talk) 15:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
A teacher of mine claimed that the Greek word μαθητής, usually translated as "disciple" in English-language bibles, is specifically a word from the culture of skilled craftsmen (those who learned how to do their work by working, and usually living, with a master craftsman for a period of years, such as, in the bible, carpenters and fishermen), and should therefore be translated "apprentice" in preference of any other translation. Also that the word implies someone who is a good bit younger than the "master", usually a person in his teenage years. Can someone elucidate on that, if possible within the article. Thanks! -- 79.217.167.85 ( talk) 11:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC)