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Saying a bird is a dinosaur because they evolved from dinosaurs is like saying I'm really a modern mouse. 71.211.221.149 ( talk) 20:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I am considering changing the temporal range of dinosaurs in the infobox from Late Triassic-Late Cretaceous to simply Late Triassic-recent. I think this is important is it displays current scientific consensus based on modern cladistic classification, that birds aren't simply the descendents of dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs and continue to be part of the dinosaur group. This means that dinosaurs survive to the present and I think it is important to show that no distinction is made in the temporal range. Almost all scientists agree that birds aren't just a distinguished group that evolved from dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs, at least according to modern phylogenetics. Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? Cadiomals ( talk) 07:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
"Besides, while the birds-are-dinosaurs is all the rage among dinosaur studies (and to a large degree in other vertebrate palaentology fields), dino-studies is a rather small field." So I see this as the central question. should the article "Dinosaur" reflect the consensus view of scientists who work on dinosaurs, however small or large that field may be, or should it reflect the consensus usage in other, unrelated fields? In other words, how this subject is treated in the article Dinosaur vs the article Bird or vertebrate should not necessarily be the same (and probably cannot be made the same without violating verifiability). I watched Dinosaur Revolution and in the last episode several of the talking heads explicitly endorsed birds-are-dinosaurs, by the way. MMartyniuk ( talk) 14:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Um... I was here over a year ago and... the article is still as wrong as ever. It's the year 2012 now. We've known birds are dinosaurs for a very, VERY long time now in the sense of paleontology (which moves ridiculously fast in regard to dinosaurs), and yet the "mighty" wikipedia still treats what is outside of it's little bubble common knowledge as a controversial heated debate?
Sorry, guys, birds are dinosaurs, dinosaurs aren't extinct. If you have some sort of idealogical problem with that, I can't help you, but I'm sure there are other wikis which would revel in hearing all about the ignorance and misconceptions that are holdovers from the late 1950's. No really, you need to start growing up now.
Tell you what, wikipedia, I'll give you one more chance. I'll come back in a week, or maybe a month. Then I'll go directly to this page and look ONLY at the taxobox. That's it. You don't have to maintain a neutral point of view or one-author feel to the page itself, I understand that requires thinking and I know you're incapable of that, so all you have to do is fix the taxobox. That's all. Change the part that's wrong, specifically where it mentions that dinosaurs are extinct, and that's all you have to do.
I understand there's a lot of politics involved in this sort of nonsense, but I'll be honest, I have no interest in it. In short, I believe this page CAN be saved. The problems with the tone I can actually do myself. The problems with inconsistent information can be solved as well as long as you quit reverting the frakking page. Outdated information can be updated, there are plenty of readily available recent sources to work with. Omitted information can be added to if we work as a team to create short sections summarizing information from more detailed, respectable pages. It IS possible. I'm not just about talking big either, I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and get it done. But with all of the politics and time travelers from the 1950's, it's hard for one person to do alone. And I'll be honest, it would be easier to just give up on you. Still, your google monopoly makes this hard to ignore, and if you really want to help educate the public, I think that's a cause worth fighting for.
The absolute least you can do is fix the taxobox. If you can't even accomplish this, then there's just no hope. Cultistofvertigo ( talk) 02:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
There is hardly any controversy surrounding the fact that birds are dinosaurs anymore, it's just not widely accepted by some laypeople because they don't like the idea of the cute little featherball that wakes them up each morning with its singing being connected to a cold, reptilian killer from the mists of time, and thus many still pretend that birds aren't dinosaurs. Yet even more strangely, many of those same laypeople readily accept pterosaurs as both birds and dinosaurs, when in actuality they are neither, although they do share a close evolutionary relationship with both groups. Anywho, the taxobox has been changed the last time I checked so there's no need for this discussion to go on any further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinolover45 ( talk • contribs) 16:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you support or oppose an edit that would extend the temporal range of dinosaurs to "present?" Just put "support" or "oppose" in bold below without giving a reason because this is already being discussed above. In the end we'll count up the votes and act accordingly. This is really becoming an issue of semantics and what exactly defines a dinosaur and I think just putting it to a vote would help. The poll will end a week from now.
The lede states:
Most research conducted since the 1970s, however, has indicated that ancient dinosaurs, like modern birds, were active, intelligent animals with elevated metabolisms and numerous adaptations for social interaction.
The text indicate dinosaur intelligence (which was really varied) was on par with that of modern birds. Now, surely they were not turtle sluggish, but even the most brainy dinosaur (Troodon) had an encephalization quotient below that of birds. This means a chicken would outsmart a Troodon, not to mention Velociraptor. Some of the large plant eaters would have been really limited. The Victorian "dim witted" is likely an apt description. Small brains do not only affect behaviour, the body is also controlled by the brain, meaning animals like Stegosaurus and Ancylosaurus would have have a limited range of movements. I suggest toning it down a bit. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 20:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I just had the chance to read through Hopsons article. Here are some highlights:
Relevant to our discussion, Hopson noted the sauropods (despite him assuming their brain filled the whole the whole brain case) had extremely low EQ, at the very lower range for reptiles. He simply state he will refrain from drawing conclusions on their behaviour based on this. He really wanted to point out dinosaurs had not been the dim-witted creatures of Victorian view, but when it comes to sauropods, the raw data (if taken at face value) really indicate otherwise. Lower end of the reptilian range place them in the legue of turtles.
Interestingly, Hopson also concluded that the pterosaurs had a fairly low EQ, well within typical reptilian range, indicating that high EQ is not a pre prerequisite for flying per se. The high EQ in small coelurosaurs (surpassing that of Archaeopteryx in some cases), indicate the high EQ evolved before flight, not as a result of it. Hopson suggest pterosaurs were plains- and costal dwellers, while the avian ancestors were forest dwellers, which would be more complex and put higher demand on the vision.
It is a very interesting read, and I suggest you give it a go. If you can't access it, I'll copy it and e-mail it to you. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 12:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
There is virtually nothing in the article on this topic, when I think it is an important detail. As well as being a diverse and varied group, they were also incredibly widespread, and believed to have inhabited most terrestrial ecosystems on Earth during the Mesozoic. Indeed, this should have mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 01:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
"CT-scanning revealed the evidence of air sacs within the body cavity of the Aerosteon skeleton" ?! I'm not sure that's how a CT scan works with a fossil. I think "CT-scanning of Aerosteon's fossil bones revealed evidence for the existence of air sacs within the animal's body cavity" is better phrased. Dracontes ( talk) 11:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
A British scientist claims that dinosaurs were too heavy to have been terrestrial animals, and that they spent most of their time floating in shallow rivers and lakes. Furthermore, he says that the tail was a swimming aid instead of a tool used for balance on land. I don't buy this hypothesis myself, but I put the info here just to alert the dino-nuts on this encyclopedia about this new theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinolover45 ( talk • contribs) 14:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Phew, that's a relief. Come to think of it, wasn't this a popular theory in the 1930s that has been disproven since then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 17:08, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
At some point, the text of the article states "†Megalosauroidea (early group of large carnivores including the semi-aquatic spinosaurids)". I think it's a bit far-fetched to call Spinosaurids semi-aquatic. Should I remove the statement? DaMatriX ( talk) 23:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Dinosaurs that archeologists discover and observe as prehistoric fossils were once the dominant terrestial vertabraes that ever existed in the the environment which surrounds us but due to the sub-zero effects of the climate that we humans have adapted to, their diverse population has seized to exist since the triassic period.
During the era which these creatures existed, an immense quantity of them behaved in a brutal and sinister manner towards the other classifications of these dinosaurs whilst some were eco-friendly and peaceful in their surroundings;Behaviour — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.124.45 ( talk) 20:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Dinosaurs were extremely adaptable animals, and it was not climate change that contributed to their demise, despite popular belief. They dealt with all kinds of changes in the climate and environment during their 165+ million years on Earth. Their demise was brought on by an extraordinary cataclysm, usually thought to have been an asteroid or a comet that slammed into Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula 65 million years ago. To put it simply, your statement is invalid, my fellow unsigned contributor.-- 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 00:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
none of those two beginning entires to this section made any sense. if dinosaurs went extinct in the triassic why are there dinosaur fossils dated to the Cretacious? are you talking about Therapsids?-- 50.195.51.9 ( talk) 17:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
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Dinosaurs still exist. Barren2134 ( talk) 05:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
we have fossils, but no living dinosaur claims as they are all hoaxes.-- 50.195.51.9 ( talk) 17:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Umm..he's not talking about the Mokele-mbembe and crap, which are quite obviously fake. He's talking about those tiny, feathered flying dinosaurs in our backyards. You know, the ones that the kids these days call " birds". -- 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 21:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Stop removing it from the infobox. The argument that all dinosaurs have to fall into either the Saurischia or Ornithischia is invalid, for 1) the definition section of this article states that "Under phylogenetic taxonomy, dinosaurs are usually defined as the group consisting of Triceratops, Neornithes [modern birds], their most recent common ancestor, and all descendants".[10] It has also been suggested that Dinosauria be defined with respect to the most recent common ancestor of Megalosaurus and Iguanodon, because these were two of the three genera cited by Richard Owen when he recognized the Dinosauria.[11] Both definitions result in the same set of animals being defined as dinosaurs: "Dinosauria = Ornithischia + Saurischia"". At least based on the information we have here, a species does not have to be Saurischian or Ornithischian to be a dinosaur, but for the most part, all known species that met the actual definition fell into one of them, so it amounted to be that - notice it says results, not called for a redefinition as - before this finding. 2) The researchers (Nesbitt, etc.) are well more educated in the field than any of us, and clearly know what a dinosaur is defined as. They would not have states it was either a basal Dinosaurian or a Dinosauriform if it was not possible to be just a basal Dinosaurian. 3) We are not the taxonomists here who are to determine whether it is or is not a basal dinosaur, but if scientists say it is in either one clade or the other, then it belongs in both with a question mark next to its placement in Wikipedia articles. Jntg4Games ( talk) 03:49, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, birds evolved from dinosaurs, so scientifically they're the same, but outside of biology, dinosaurs only refer to the extinct animals. The common word "dinosaur" and the clade "Dinosauria" do not have the same meaning, and this article is titled dinosaur. Dinosauria is a scientific term that includes birds; Dinosaur is a lay term that does not. All dinosaurs are extinct, many members of Dinosauria are not. Thus, for an opening sentence, I would suggest, "Dinosaurs are a diverse group of extinct animals comprising most of the clade Dinosauria." Then, after mentioning that birds are a member of the clade, never say "non-avian dinosaur" again, since dinosaurs (not dinosauria) are by definition, not birds. Ego White Tray ( talk) 17:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Too much heat, here; and the "agenda" comments are a bit over the top. The phrase "non-avian" occurs only eleven times in this rather large article, including once in the references. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I'd just like to apologize for my last post. I have discussed this on a number of occasions, it does not bring out the best in me, which is why I largely leave this article alone.
The term "planet" in the case of Pluto and "dinosaur" in the case of birds are not as comparable as it might look on the surface. The term planet started out as lay term, later to become a scientific term, the term dinosaur did the opposite. The number of planets in the solar system is relatively small, a classification convention is not really necessary to keep track of who is whom. There are on the other hand thousands of birds species and around a thousand named dinosaur species too, classification is clearly relevant. The classification of planets are governed by the International Astronomical Union, who are universally recognized as the proper authority in astronomical classification, no comparable authority exist to govern the dinosaur issue. The result is that while phylogenetic definition of dinosaurs as a clade have been used and tried imposed in the public with limited success for decades, the status of Pluto was ruled on and subsequently and accepted by the majority of the public. Clearly, the example of Pluto is only distantly related.
Ego White Tray argued that the this article should drop using the "non-avian dinosaur" terminology, as the general understanding of the term "dinosaur" is as the traditional grade, not as a clade. Peter Brown has given excellent sources to support Ego White Tray's argument, and has also given examples showing that the traditional use extend into the circles of workers in the field themselves. Personally, I would ad that the "Featured article" status was awarded this article some time ago, before the changeover to the current cladist terminology, so that the article clearly was good enough with the more traditional use of the term.
With dinosaurs, we are in a situation where the term as used by most workers in the field do not match the general understanding. This is obviously a problem we should deal with. There are a number of ways this could be solved, and we should be able to discuss these rationally. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 19:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Seeing the temperature of this debate, I think we could benefit by at least agreeing to some basic facts, so that we have a common ground to build agreement on. I'll start with some suggestions, feel free to disagree:
1.) The overwhelming majority of palaeontologists working with dinosaurs uses the Dinosauria to denote a clade (i.e. including birds). I believe this should be uncontroversial.
2.) The overwhelming majority of people outside dinosaur palaeontology uses the term "dinosaur" and even "Dinosauria" as a traditional grade, excluding birds. I believe this too is uncontroversial.
3.) The use of phylogenetic nomenclature in general is ubiquitous in dinosaur palaeontology, but less common in other branches of palaeontology and even more so in biology. This too should be uncontroversial.
Then, there are some less obvious points, that are more open to interpretation: 4.) The only reason to use the term dinosaur as a clade is to comply with phylogenetic nomenclature.
5.) The term "dinosaur" was used as a grade in palaeontology for decades, without causing confusion.
6.) There is a concerted effort by a subgroup of dinosaur palaeontologists wishing to impose a new understanding of the term "dinosaur" on the public.
7.) The phylogeny of birds relative to the dinosaur grade is well understood and can be expressed clearly and succinctly using either phylogenetic or more traditional ways of expressing it.
8.) The meaning of common words like "dinosaur" is dictated by usage, and is not governed by science.
9.) While phylogenetics is a science, taxonomy is not. Thus taxonomy is only "right" or "wrong" relative to the constructed (i.e non-scientific) internal logic of the taxonomic rules.
As long as we can remember these facts I think we can discuss this civilly without resorting to accusing each other of hidden agendas or lending support to crationism. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 13:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Your three uncontroversial statements are basically fine, but I have issues with almost everything else you've said, starting with statement 4. Actually, I'd say the biggest reason to define Dinosauria phylogenetically, especially as far as Wikipedia is concerned, is because that's how every reliable source does it.
Five also has issues because there have been plenty of stupid arguments over whether or not individual bird-like animals are birds or dinosaurs to cause confusion. Of course there'd still be similar arguments under phylogenetic systematics, but at least those discussions would be regarding meaningful questions like "is animal x deeply nested enough within Dinosauria to fall under Aves?" versus "should animal X be classified under completely subjective designation Y or completely subjective designation Z?".
Statement six is even more ridiculous. You're framing the basic dissemination of science as some kind of right-wing anti-intellectual conspiracy theory. Like people are saying "those liberal elitists in the university are trying to force us to use a different definition of the word dinosaur". Really it's more like "dinosaur paleontologists generally are trying to inform the general public regarding advances in the field".
7: I'm not sure I agree that it's possible to discuss the matter "clearly", using the traditional framework, but I suppose it can get the basic gist across.
Statement 8 is just plain wrong. No. Absolutely not.
Statement 9: Sure, but there's the small matter of how logical that internal logic is and how well it corresponds to objective reality. Not to mention that as far as Wikipedia is concerned there's the matter of what classification is actually used by reliable sources. Abyssal ( talk) 15:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Let me add another couple facts, that I don't think should be controversial, but probably are anyway:
10) Dinosaur is not a scientific term, while the clade name dinosauria is.
11) The general public will quickly adopt a new scientific meaning if it intuitively makes sense.
Regards to 11, Pluto has major obvious differences from the eight planets so reclassifying it made intuitive sense to the general public. On the other hand, birds have major obvious differences from extinct dinosaurs, so it makes no sense to the general public to classify them the same. This is why the general public universally rejects this definition, and the public will probably never accept it no matter what. Ego White Tray ( talk) 16:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
12) Wikipedia does not write articles for the benefit of experts or specialists - This basic fact is important enough to bold. It pretty much trumps all the "birds are dinosaurs" arguments which only experts and specialists will accept. Ego White Tray ( talk) 16:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Regards to 11,
Pluto has major obvious differences from the eight planets so reclassifying it made intuitive sense to the general public. On the other hand, birds have major obvious differences from extinct dinosaurs, so it makes no sense to the general public to classify them the same. This is why the general public universally rejects this definition.
Ego White Tray (
talk)
16:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Abyssal, I'm glad we can agree on the three first points, I'll answer the rest in turn.
4) I've not come to Wikipedia yet, I take it we agree on the use of Dinosauria as a clade in dinosaur palaeontology is to comply with phylogenetic nomenclature?
5) Exactly where very birdlike animals belong inside or outside a set marker in the phylogenetic tree (in this case “Aves”) is a phylogenetic and thus scientific question, the choice of classification has no other bearing on the question other than where the marker stands. The only real difference in this case is that the phylogenetic nomenclature marker as you move up the branch reads “Now entering Aves”, while the Linnaean ones read “Now entering Aves, leaving Reptilia”.
6) I've never claimed the proponents of phylogenetic nomenclature are a cult working in secret and wearing funny hats and having some nefarious reasons. You being one of them though, I do maintain that the proponents of phylogenetic nomenclature wishes to impose a new understanding of the term “dinosaur” on the public, you just said so yourself. If you want other examples of the same, go brows the PhyloCode forum.
7) I fail to see how “birds evolved from dinosaurs” is any less clear than “birds are dinosaurs”. The expressed phylogeny is identical.
8) Peter Brown has already answered this question, I'd just like to clarify that I did not intend to say that science is without role in determining meaning, only that it it but one of several factors influencing usage.
I do not intend to bring up Wikipedia policies yet. Interpreting loosely worded rules is hard enough as it is, no need to go there until we at least agree on the basic facts. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 19:44, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Back to number 12, of course we write all our articles for non-specialists. Any paleontologist who learns something new from this article should be promptly fired. Ego White Tray ( talk) 03:41, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
If majority of current reliable sources use "dinosaur" s a grade, it would justify making separate articles for Dinosaur and Dinosauria (same goes for, say, Mammal vs. Mammalia, Human vs. Homo sapiens, Aves vs. Bird, etc.). If not, keep the things together and mention the different usages in one article. I have no idea why there is so much argument about this other than the fact that some people do not like the current consensus (which is why old and minority references are now and have always been the only ones brought to bear in these discussions). Seriously, this is a dead horse. MMartyniuk ( talk) 18:03, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
1.) The overwhelming majority of palaeontologists working with dinosaurs uses the Dinosauria to denote a clade (i.e. including birds). I believe this should be uncontroversial. Agree 2.) The overwhelming majority of people outside dinosaur palaeontology uses the term "dinosaur" and even "Dinosauria" as a traditional grade, excluding birds. I believe this too is uncontroversial. Why would we use sources from outside dinosaur paleontology for an article about dinosaurs? 3.) The use of phylogenetic nomenclature in general is ubiquus in dinosaur palaeontology, but less common in other branches of palaeontology and even more so in biology. This too should be uncontroversial. Agree, but again, how is this applicable?
Here my suggestion for a revised opening based on conversations above:
Dinosaurs are a diverse group of animals of the clade Dinosauria. They first appeared during the Triassic period, approximately 230 million years ago, and were the dominant terrestrial vertebrates for 135 million years, from the beginning of the Jurassic (about 200 million years ago) until the end of the Cretaceous (65.5 million years ago), when the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event led to the extinction of most dinosaur groups at the close of the Mesozoic Era. The fossil record indicates that
avian dinosaurs - more commonly known asbirds - evolved from theropod dinosaurs during the Jurassic Period, and consequently they are considered a subgroup of dinosaurs in modern classification systems. Someavian dinosaursbird-like dinosaurs survived the extinction event that occurred 65 million years ago, and their descendants continue the dinosaur lineage to the present day.Dinosaurs are a varied group of animals from taxonomic, morphological and ecological standpoints. Birds, which evolved from dinosaurs and include'
atover 9,000 living species, are the most diverse group of vertebrates besides perciform fish. Using fossil evidence, paleontologists have identified over 500 distinct genera and more than 1,000 different species ofnon-aviandinosaurs. Dinosaurs are represented on every continent byboth extant species andfossil remains. Some wereareherbivorous, others carnivorous. Most dinosaurs have been bipedal, though many extinct groups included quadrupedal species, and some were able to shift between these body postures. Many species possess elaborate display structures such as horns or crests, and some prehistoric groups developed skeletal modifications such as bony armor and spines. Birds have been the planet's dominant flying vertebrate since the extinction of the pterosaurs, and evidence suggests that egg laying and nest building is a trait shared byallboth dinosaurs and birds. While many prehistoric dinosaurs were large animals—the largest sauropods could reach lengths of almost 60 meters (200 feet) and were several stories tall—the idea thatnon-aviandinosaurs were uniformly gigantic is a misconception based on preservation bias; many ancient species were nearly as small as birds are today.Although the word dinosaur means "terrible lizard", the name is somewhat misleading, as dinosaurs are not lizards. Rather, they represent a separate group of reptiles with a distinct upright posture not found in lizards, and many extinct forms did not exhibit traditional reptilian characteristics. Through the first half of the 20th century, before birds were recognized to
be dinosaurshave evolved from dinosaurs, most of the scientific community believed dinosaurs to be sluggish and cold-blooded. Most research conducted since the 1970s, however, has indicated that ancient dinosaurs, particularly the carnivorous groups, were active animals with elevated metabolisms and numerous adaptations for social interaction.
As you can see above, the changes that would be required (noted by italics for new text and strikethrough for removed text) would be minimal and have pretty much zero effect on the actual content of the article. Then, change the "etymology" section to a "name" section, and add a section about the clade versus group debate there - or move the paragraph about this in the "description" section up there.
Ego White Tray (
talk)
15:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
It is clear that a number of paleontologists who write for lay readers hope to persuade them to use the term "dinosaur" in a sense that includes birds. So far, they have not succeeded. As Petter Bøckman as pointed out, "people understanding the term 'dinosaur' as including birds is probably in the per mil range or less among English speakers." These paleontologists may yet succeed; it was not an easy task to convince the 17th century public to call the Earth a "planet" or to persuade the public of the 18th and 19th centuries to stop calling whales "fish". Despite some holdouts, though, these shifts in lay conceptions were largely achieved.
There can be no objection to encouraging the public to accept vocabulary and conceptualizations that have become common among specialists. Is this really the story for "dinosaur", though?. Petter has claimed (his point #3, above) that "the use of phylogenetic nomenclature in general is ubiquitous in dinosaur palaeontology"; while I normally defer to his expertise, my own (admittedly limited) poking around in the literature suggests another pattern. While dinosaur paleontologists generally pay lip service to phylogenetic nomenclature, their actual use of the term "dinosaur" seems to have more in common with the public's conception. When they remember, they will write "non-avian" before "dinosaur" in making generalizations not intended to include birds, but often they do not remember or, if they remember, do not care. Their publications are intended to communicate, and this can be achieved by using terms in a sense generally shared by authors, editors, reviewers, and readers. Though a few purists may find the usage objectionable, "dinosaur" in the paraphyletic sense is such a term.
I have cited Butler et al. (2011), "Sea level, dinosaur diversity and sampling biases". The article is not concerned with birds, but its five authors have not made a mistake in choosing their title, since they know that the the title will not mislead their likely readers or the many other specialists who see the title in the "References" sections of later articles. It is simple to find other examples. Ray Stanford and coauthors recently published an article entitled "The first hatchling dinosaur reported from the eastern United States", a title that does not strike readers as absurd only because they do not expect "dinosaur" to include birds. Grigorescu (2005) says of material from the Haţeg basin that it "does not belong to birds, but to theropods", with no suggestion that it could be both. Chiappe and Witmer have a book out entitled Mesozoic Birds: Above the Heads of the Dinosaurs, a title that deliberately evokes the image of birds and dinosaurs as separate groups, one flying above the other.
Further multiplication of examples would be easy, but these will do. As a perfunctory nod to the cladists, paleontologists often toss in the term "non-avian" here and there as a redundant ornament in their publications, but they freely use "dinosaur" without that qualification in their titles and in other places in their articles, understanding that reviewers and readers will naturally understand that they are not talking about birds.
What then of the paleontologists who attempt to persuade the public to include birds in the scope of the term "dinosaur", the "PhyloCode posse" in Petter Bøckman's phrase? If I am correct in the foregoing, this endeavor is a dishonest abuse of the esteem in which the public holds scientists. They are saying, "We scientists see things this way, and we're experts, so you should see things the same way," when in fact scientists generally do not see things in the way described. A scientist who writes for a lay readership should be attempting to bring popular understanding into line with that of the scientific community; where the understandings are already aligned, the responsible course is to leave matters alone, even if the writer disagrees.
Why should scientists who are scrupulously honest in their technical work practice this sort of deception in their popular writings? And why are they not roundly criticized by other professionals who are not guilty of this sort of hypocrisy? I can only speculate.
Perhaps the members of the PhyloCode posse are driven by an evangelistic passion to disseminate their point of view and do not give sufficient thought to the fact that they are trading, illegitimately, on their prestige as scientists. Though they may disapprove of the way other paleontologists regularly use language, they acquiesce since these others are also members of the elite, but this tolerance does not extend to the masses. Members of the posse may even have a selective blindness to the unapproved way that their colleagues use terms, seeing all paleontologists as fellow cladists. These colleagues may hesitate to challenge the posse's popularizations partly because they do not want to get involved in the highly charged debate around the PhyloCode and partly because there is no obvious forum in which they can present objections. Perhaps someone deeply familiar with the course of dinosaur studies in the past twenty years could write an exposé for The New Yorker ? It hasn't happened yet.
It is doubtless impossible wholly to prevent Wikipedia from being used as a tool for the promotion of the cladist agenda. Ego White Tray is to be commended for making an attempt to at least reduce the influence of the PhyloCode posse. Even if he (or she?) is totally unsuccessful, there will be other efforts, some of which may fare better.
Peter Brown ( talk) 22:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
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Saying a bird is a dinosaur because they evolved from dinosaurs is like saying I'm really a modern mouse. 71.211.221.149 ( talk) 20:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I am considering changing the temporal range of dinosaurs in the infobox from Late Triassic-Late Cretaceous to simply Late Triassic-recent. I think this is important is it displays current scientific consensus based on modern cladistic classification, that birds aren't simply the descendents of dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs and continue to be part of the dinosaur group. This means that dinosaurs survive to the present and I think it is important to show that no distinction is made in the temporal range. Almost all scientists agree that birds aren't just a distinguished group that evolved from dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs, at least according to modern phylogenetics. Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? Cadiomals ( talk) 07:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
"Besides, while the birds-are-dinosaurs is all the rage among dinosaur studies (and to a large degree in other vertebrate palaentology fields), dino-studies is a rather small field." So I see this as the central question. should the article "Dinosaur" reflect the consensus view of scientists who work on dinosaurs, however small or large that field may be, or should it reflect the consensus usage in other, unrelated fields? In other words, how this subject is treated in the article Dinosaur vs the article Bird or vertebrate should not necessarily be the same (and probably cannot be made the same without violating verifiability). I watched Dinosaur Revolution and in the last episode several of the talking heads explicitly endorsed birds-are-dinosaurs, by the way. MMartyniuk ( talk) 14:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Um... I was here over a year ago and... the article is still as wrong as ever. It's the year 2012 now. We've known birds are dinosaurs for a very, VERY long time now in the sense of paleontology (which moves ridiculously fast in regard to dinosaurs), and yet the "mighty" wikipedia still treats what is outside of it's little bubble common knowledge as a controversial heated debate?
Sorry, guys, birds are dinosaurs, dinosaurs aren't extinct. If you have some sort of idealogical problem with that, I can't help you, but I'm sure there are other wikis which would revel in hearing all about the ignorance and misconceptions that are holdovers from the late 1950's. No really, you need to start growing up now.
Tell you what, wikipedia, I'll give you one more chance. I'll come back in a week, or maybe a month. Then I'll go directly to this page and look ONLY at the taxobox. That's it. You don't have to maintain a neutral point of view or one-author feel to the page itself, I understand that requires thinking and I know you're incapable of that, so all you have to do is fix the taxobox. That's all. Change the part that's wrong, specifically where it mentions that dinosaurs are extinct, and that's all you have to do.
I understand there's a lot of politics involved in this sort of nonsense, but I'll be honest, I have no interest in it. In short, I believe this page CAN be saved. The problems with the tone I can actually do myself. The problems with inconsistent information can be solved as well as long as you quit reverting the frakking page. Outdated information can be updated, there are plenty of readily available recent sources to work with. Omitted information can be added to if we work as a team to create short sections summarizing information from more detailed, respectable pages. It IS possible. I'm not just about talking big either, I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and get it done. But with all of the politics and time travelers from the 1950's, it's hard for one person to do alone. And I'll be honest, it would be easier to just give up on you. Still, your google monopoly makes this hard to ignore, and if you really want to help educate the public, I think that's a cause worth fighting for.
The absolute least you can do is fix the taxobox. If you can't even accomplish this, then there's just no hope. Cultistofvertigo ( talk) 02:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
There is hardly any controversy surrounding the fact that birds are dinosaurs anymore, it's just not widely accepted by some laypeople because they don't like the idea of the cute little featherball that wakes them up each morning with its singing being connected to a cold, reptilian killer from the mists of time, and thus many still pretend that birds aren't dinosaurs. Yet even more strangely, many of those same laypeople readily accept pterosaurs as both birds and dinosaurs, when in actuality they are neither, although they do share a close evolutionary relationship with both groups. Anywho, the taxobox has been changed the last time I checked so there's no need for this discussion to go on any further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinolover45 ( talk • contribs) 16:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you support or oppose an edit that would extend the temporal range of dinosaurs to "present?" Just put "support" or "oppose" in bold below without giving a reason because this is already being discussed above. In the end we'll count up the votes and act accordingly. This is really becoming an issue of semantics and what exactly defines a dinosaur and I think just putting it to a vote would help. The poll will end a week from now.
The lede states:
Most research conducted since the 1970s, however, has indicated that ancient dinosaurs, like modern birds, were active, intelligent animals with elevated metabolisms and numerous adaptations for social interaction.
The text indicate dinosaur intelligence (which was really varied) was on par with that of modern birds. Now, surely they were not turtle sluggish, but even the most brainy dinosaur (Troodon) had an encephalization quotient below that of birds. This means a chicken would outsmart a Troodon, not to mention Velociraptor. Some of the large plant eaters would have been really limited. The Victorian "dim witted" is likely an apt description. Small brains do not only affect behaviour, the body is also controlled by the brain, meaning animals like Stegosaurus and Ancylosaurus would have have a limited range of movements. I suggest toning it down a bit. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 20:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I just had the chance to read through Hopsons article. Here are some highlights:
Relevant to our discussion, Hopson noted the sauropods (despite him assuming their brain filled the whole the whole brain case) had extremely low EQ, at the very lower range for reptiles. He simply state he will refrain from drawing conclusions on their behaviour based on this. He really wanted to point out dinosaurs had not been the dim-witted creatures of Victorian view, but when it comes to sauropods, the raw data (if taken at face value) really indicate otherwise. Lower end of the reptilian range place them in the legue of turtles.
Interestingly, Hopson also concluded that the pterosaurs had a fairly low EQ, well within typical reptilian range, indicating that high EQ is not a pre prerequisite for flying per se. The high EQ in small coelurosaurs (surpassing that of Archaeopteryx in some cases), indicate the high EQ evolved before flight, not as a result of it. Hopson suggest pterosaurs were plains- and costal dwellers, while the avian ancestors were forest dwellers, which would be more complex and put higher demand on the vision.
It is a very interesting read, and I suggest you give it a go. If you can't access it, I'll copy it and e-mail it to you. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 12:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
There is virtually nothing in the article on this topic, when I think it is an important detail. As well as being a diverse and varied group, they were also incredibly widespread, and believed to have inhabited most terrestrial ecosystems on Earth during the Mesozoic. Indeed, this should have mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 01:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
"CT-scanning revealed the evidence of air sacs within the body cavity of the Aerosteon skeleton" ?! I'm not sure that's how a CT scan works with a fossil. I think "CT-scanning of Aerosteon's fossil bones revealed evidence for the existence of air sacs within the animal's body cavity" is better phrased. Dracontes ( talk) 11:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
A British scientist claims that dinosaurs were too heavy to have been terrestrial animals, and that they spent most of their time floating in shallow rivers and lakes. Furthermore, he says that the tail was a swimming aid instead of a tool used for balance on land. I don't buy this hypothesis myself, but I put the info here just to alert the dino-nuts on this encyclopedia about this new theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinolover45 ( talk • contribs) 14:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Phew, that's a relief. Come to think of it, wasn't this a popular theory in the 1930s that has been disproven since then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 17:08, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
At some point, the text of the article states "†Megalosauroidea (early group of large carnivores including the semi-aquatic spinosaurids)". I think it's a bit far-fetched to call Spinosaurids semi-aquatic. Should I remove the statement? DaMatriX ( talk) 23:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Dinosaurs that archeologists discover and observe as prehistoric fossils were once the dominant terrestial vertabraes that ever existed in the the environment which surrounds us but due to the sub-zero effects of the climate that we humans have adapted to, their diverse population has seized to exist since the triassic period.
During the era which these creatures existed, an immense quantity of them behaved in a brutal and sinister manner towards the other classifications of these dinosaurs whilst some were eco-friendly and peaceful in their surroundings;Behaviour — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.124.45 ( talk) 20:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Dinosaurs were extremely adaptable animals, and it was not climate change that contributed to their demise, despite popular belief. They dealt with all kinds of changes in the climate and environment during their 165+ million years on Earth. Their demise was brought on by an extraordinary cataclysm, usually thought to have been an asteroid or a comet that slammed into Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula 65 million years ago. To put it simply, your statement is invalid, my fellow unsigned contributor.-- 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 00:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
none of those two beginning entires to this section made any sense. if dinosaurs went extinct in the triassic why are there dinosaur fossils dated to the Cretacious? are you talking about Therapsids?-- 50.195.51.9 ( talk) 17:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
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Dinosaurs still exist. Barren2134 ( talk) 05:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
we have fossils, but no living dinosaur claims as they are all hoaxes.-- 50.195.51.9 ( talk) 17:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Umm..he's not talking about the Mokele-mbembe and crap, which are quite obviously fake. He's talking about those tiny, feathered flying dinosaurs in our backyards. You know, the ones that the kids these days call " birds". -- 24.36.130.109 ( talk) 21:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Stop removing it from the infobox. The argument that all dinosaurs have to fall into either the Saurischia or Ornithischia is invalid, for 1) the definition section of this article states that "Under phylogenetic taxonomy, dinosaurs are usually defined as the group consisting of Triceratops, Neornithes [modern birds], their most recent common ancestor, and all descendants".[10] It has also been suggested that Dinosauria be defined with respect to the most recent common ancestor of Megalosaurus and Iguanodon, because these were two of the three genera cited by Richard Owen when he recognized the Dinosauria.[11] Both definitions result in the same set of animals being defined as dinosaurs: "Dinosauria = Ornithischia + Saurischia"". At least based on the information we have here, a species does not have to be Saurischian or Ornithischian to be a dinosaur, but for the most part, all known species that met the actual definition fell into one of them, so it amounted to be that - notice it says results, not called for a redefinition as - before this finding. 2) The researchers (Nesbitt, etc.) are well more educated in the field than any of us, and clearly know what a dinosaur is defined as. They would not have states it was either a basal Dinosaurian or a Dinosauriform if it was not possible to be just a basal Dinosaurian. 3) We are not the taxonomists here who are to determine whether it is or is not a basal dinosaur, but if scientists say it is in either one clade or the other, then it belongs in both with a question mark next to its placement in Wikipedia articles. Jntg4Games ( talk) 03:49, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, birds evolved from dinosaurs, so scientifically they're the same, but outside of biology, dinosaurs only refer to the extinct animals. The common word "dinosaur" and the clade "Dinosauria" do not have the same meaning, and this article is titled dinosaur. Dinosauria is a scientific term that includes birds; Dinosaur is a lay term that does not. All dinosaurs are extinct, many members of Dinosauria are not. Thus, for an opening sentence, I would suggest, "Dinosaurs are a diverse group of extinct animals comprising most of the clade Dinosauria." Then, after mentioning that birds are a member of the clade, never say "non-avian dinosaur" again, since dinosaurs (not dinosauria) are by definition, not birds. Ego White Tray ( talk) 17:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Too much heat, here; and the "agenda" comments are a bit over the top. The phrase "non-avian" occurs only eleven times in this rather large article, including once in the references. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
I'd just like to apologize for my last post. I have discussed this on a number of occasions, it does not bring out the best in me, which is why I largely leave this article alone.
The term "planet" in the case of Pluto and "dinosaur" in the case of birds are not as comparable as it might look on the surface. The term planet started out as lay term, later to become a scientific term, the term dinosaur did the opposite. The number of planets in the solar system is relatively small, a classification convention is not really necessary to keep track of who is whom. There are on the other hand thousands of birds species and around a thousand named dinosaur species too, classification is clearly relevant. The classification of planets are governed by the International Astronomical Union, who are universally recognized as the proper authority in astronomical classification, no comparable authority exist to govern the dinosaur issue. The result is that while phylogenetic definition of dinosaurs as a clade have been used and tried imposed in the public with limited success for decades, the status of Pluto was ruled on and subsequently and accepted by the majority of the public. Clearly, the example of Pluto is only distantly related.
Ego White Tray argued that the this article should drop using the "non-avian dinosaur" terminology, as the general understanding of the term "dinosaur" is as the traditional grade, not as a clade. Peter Brown has given excellent sources to support Ego White Tray's argument, and has also given examples showing that the traditional use extend into the circles of workers in the field themselves. Personally, I would ad that the "Featured article" status was awarded this article some time ago, before the changeover to the current cladist terminology, so that the article clearly was good enough with the more traditional use of the term.
With dinosaurs, we are in a situation where the term as used by most workers in the field do not match the general understanding. This is obviously a problem we should deal with. There are a number of ways this could be solved, and we should be able to discuss these rationally. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 19:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Seeing the temperature of this debate, I think we could benefit by at least agreeing to some basic facts, so that we have a common ground to build agreement on. I'll start with some suggestions, feel free to disagree:
1.) The overwhelming majority of palaeontologists working with dinosaurs uses the Dinosauria to denote a clade (i.e. including birds). I believe this should be uncontroversial.
2.) The overwhelming majority of people outside dinosaur palaeontology uses the term "dinosaur" and even "Dinosauria" as a traditional grade, excluding birds. I believe this too is uncontroversial.
3.) The use of phylogenetic nomenclature in general is ubiquitous in dinosaur palaeontology, but less common in other branches of palaeontology and even more so in biology. This too should be uncontroversial.
Then, there are some less obvious points, that are more open to interpretation: 4.) The only reason to use the term dinosaur as a clade is to comply with phylogenetic nomenclature.
5.) The term "dinosaur" was used as a grade in palaeontology for decades, without causing confusion.
6.) There is a concerted effort by a subgroup of dinosaur palaeontologists wishing to impose a new understanding of the term "dinosaur" on the public.
7.) The phylogeny of birds relative to the dinosaur grade is well understood and can be expressed clearly and succinctly using either phylogenetic or more traditional ways of expressing it.
8.) The meaning of common words like "dinosaur" is dictated by usage, and is not governed by science.
9.) While phylogenetics is a science, taxonomy is not. Thus taxonomy is only "right" or "wrong" relative to the constructed (i.e non-scientific) internal logic of the taxonomic rules.
As long as we can remember these facts I think we can discuss this civilly without resorting to accusing each other of hidden agendas or lending support to crationism. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 13:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Your three uncontroversial statements are basically fine, but I have issues with almost everything else you've said, starting with statement 4. Actually, I'd say the biggest reason to define Dinosauria phylogenetically, especially as far as Wikipedia is concerned, is because that's how every reliable source does it.
Five also has issues because there have been plenty of stupid arguments over whether or not individual bird-like animals are birds or dinosaurs to cause confusion. Of course there'd still be similar arguments under phylogenetic systematics, but at least those discussions would be regarding meaningful questions like "is animal x deeply nested enough within Dinosauria to fall under Aves?" versus "should animal X be classified under completely subjective designation Y or completely subjective designation Z?".
Statement six is even more ridiculous. You're framing the basic dissemination of science as some kind of right-wing anti-intellectual conspiracy theory. Like people are saying "those liberal elitists in the university are trying to force us to use a different definition of the word dinosaur". Really it's more like "dinosaur paleontologists generally are trying to inform the general public regarding advances in the field".
7: I'm not sure I agree that it's possible to discuss the matter "clearly", using the traditional framework, but I suppose it can get the basic gist across.
Statement 8 is just plain wrong. No. Absolutely not.
Statement 9: Sure, but there's the small matter of how logical that internal logic is and how well it corresponds to objective reality. Not to mention that as far as Wikipedia is concerned there's the matter of what classification is actually used by reliable sources. Abyssal ( talk) 15:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Let me add another couple facts, that I don't think should be controversial, but probably are anyway:
10) Dinosaur is not a scientific term, while the clade name dinosauria is.
11) The general public will quickly adopt a new scientific meaning if it intuitively makes sense.
Regards to 11, Pluto has major obvious differences from the eight planets so reclassifying it made intuitive sense to the general public. On the other hand, birds have major obvious differences from extinct dinosaurs, so it makes no sense to the general public to classify them the same. This is why the general public universally rejects this definition, and the public will probably never accept it no matter what. Ego White Tray ( talk) 16:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
12) Wikipedia does not write articles for the benefit of experts or specialists - This basic fact is important enough to bold. It pretty much trumps all the "birds are dinosaurs" arguments which only experts and specialists will accept. Ego White Tray ( talk) 16:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Regards to 11,
Pluto has major obvious differences from the eight planets so reclassifying it made intuitive sense to the general public. On the other hand, birds have major obvious differences from extinct dinosaurs, so it makes no sense to the general public to classify them the same. This is why the general public universally rejects this definition.
Ego White Tray (
talk)
16:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Abyssal, I'm glad we can agree on the three first points, I'll answer the rest in turn.
4) I've not come to Wikipedia yet, I take it we agree on the use of Dinosauria as a clade in dinosaur palaeontology is to comply with phylogenetic nomenclature?
5) Exactly where very birdlike animals belong inside or outside a set marker in the phylogenetic tree (in this case “Aves”) is a phylogenetic and thus scientific question, the choice of classification has no other bearing on the question other than where the marker stands. The only real difference in this case is that the phylogenetic nomenclature marker as you move up the branch reads “Now entering Aves”, while the Linnaean ones read “Now entering Aves, leaving Reptilia”.
6) I've never claimed the proponents of phylogenetic nomenclature are a cult working in secret and wearing funny hats and having some nefarious reasons. You being one of them though, I do maintain that the proponents of phylogenetic nomenclature wishes to impose a new understanding of the term “dinosaur” on the public, you just said so yourself. If you want other examples of the same, go brows the PhyloCode forum.
7) I fail to see how “birds evolved from dinosaurs” is any less clear than “birds are dinosaurs”. The expressed phylogeny is identical.
8) Peter Brown has already answered this question, I'd just like to clarify that I did not intend to say that science is without role in determining meaning, only that it it but one of several factors influencing usage.
I do not intend to bring up Wikipedia policies yet. Interpreting loosely worded rules is hard enough as it is, no need to go there until we at least agree on the basic facts. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 19:44, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Back to number 12, of course we write all our articles for non-specialists. Any paleontologist who learns something new from this article should be promptly fired. Ego White Tray ( talk) 03:41, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
If majority of current reliable sources use "dinosaur" s a grade, it would justify making separate articles for Dinosaur and Dinosauria (same goes for, say, Mammal vs. Mammalia, Human vs. Homo sapiens, Aves vs. Bird, etc.). If not, keep the things together and mention the different usages in one article. I have no idea why there is so much argument about this other than the fact that some people do not like the current consensus (which is why old and minority references are now and have always been the only ones brought to bear in these discussions). Seriously, this is a dead horse. MMartyniuk ( talk) 18:03, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
1.) The overwhelming majority of palaeontologists working with dinosaurs uses the Dinosauria to denote a clade (i.e. including birds). I believe this should be uncontroversial. Agree 2.) The overwhelming majority of people outside dinosaur palaeontology uses the term "dinosaur" and even "Dinosauria" as a traditional grade, excluding birds. I believe this too is uncontroversial. Why would we use sources from outside dinosaur paleontology for an article about dinosaurs? 3.) The use of phylogenetic nomenclature in general is ubiquus in dinosaur palaeontology, but less common in other branches of palaeontology and even more so in biology. This too should be uncontroversial. Agree, but again, how is this applicable?
Here my suggestion for a revised opening based on conversations above:
Dinosaurs are a diverse group of animals of the clade Dinosauria. They first appeared during the Triassic period, approximately 230 million years ago, and were the dominant terrestrial vertebrates for 135 million years, from the beginning of the Jurassic (about 200 million years ago) until the end of the Cretaceous (65.5 million years ago), when the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event led to the extinction of most dinosaur groups at the close of the Mesozoic Era. The fossil record indicates that
avian dinosaurs - more commonly known asbirds - evolved from theropod dinosaurs during the Jurassic Period, and consequently they are considered a subgroup of dinosaurs in modern classification systems. Someavian dinosaursbird-like dinosaurs survived the extinction event that occurred 65 million years ago, and their descendants continue the dinosaur lineage to the present day.Dinosaurs are a varied group of animals from taxonomic, morphological and ecological standpoints. Birds, which evolved from dinosaurs and include'
atover 9,000 living species, are the most diverse group of vertebrates besides perciform fish. Using fossil evidence, paleontologists have identified over 500 distinct genera and more than 1,000 different species ofnon-aviandinosaurs. Dinosaurs are represented on every continent byboth extant species andfossil remains. Some wereareherbivorous, others carnivorous. Most dinosaurs have been bipedal, though many extinct groups included quadrupedal species, and some were able to shift between these body postures. Many species possess elaborate display structures such as horns or crests, and some prehistoric groups developed skeletal modifications such as bony armor and spines. Birds have been the planet's dominant flying vertebrate since the extinction of the pterosaurs, and evidence suggests that egg laying and nest building is a trait shared byallboth dinosaurs and birds. While many prehistoric dinosaurs were large animals—the largest sauropods could reach lengths of almost 60 meters (200 feet) and were several stories tall—the idea thatnon-aviandinosaurs were uniformly gigantic is a misconception based on preservation bias; many ancient species were nearly as small as birds are today.Although the word dinosaur means "terrible lizard", the name is somewhat misleading, as dinosaurs are not lizards. Rather, they represent a separate group of reptiles with a distinct upright posture not found in lizards, and many extinct forms did not exhibit traditional reptilian characteristics. Through the first half of the 20th century, before birds were recognized to
be dinosaurshave evolved from dinosaurs, most of the scientific community believed dinosaurs to be sluggish and cold-blooded. Most research conducted since the 1970s, however, has indicated that ancient dinosaurs, particularly the carnivorous groups, were active animals with elevated metabolisms and numerous adaptations for social interaction.
As you can see above, the changes that would be required (noted by italics for new text and strikethrough for removed text) would be minimal and have pretty much zero effect on the actual content of the article. Then, change the "etymology" section to a "name" section, and add a section about the clade versus group debate there - or move the paragraph about this in the "description" section up there.
Ego White Tray (
talk)
15:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
It is clear that a number of paleontologists who write for lay readers hope to persuade them to use the term "dinosaur" in a sense that includes birds. So far, they have not succeeded. As Petter Bøckman as pointed out, "people understanding the term 'dinosaur' as including birds is probably in the per mil range or less among English speakers." These paleontologists may yet succeed; it was not an easy task to convince the 17th century public to call the Earth a "planet" or to persuade the public of the 18th and 19th centuries to stop calling whales "fish". Despite some holdouts, though, these shifts in lay conceptions were largely achieved.
There can be no objection to encouraging the public to accept vocabulary and conceptualizations that have become common among specialists. Is this really the story for "dinosaur", though?. Petter has claimed (his point #3, above) that "the use of phylogenetic nomenclature in general is ubiquitous in dinosaur palaeontology"; while I normally defer to his expertise, my own (admittedly limited) poking around in the literature suggests another pattern. While dinosaur paleontologists generally pay lip service to phylogenetic nomenclature, their actual use of the term "dinosaur" seems to have more in common with the public's conception. When they remember, they will write "non-avian" before "dinosaur" in making generalizations not intended to include birds, but often they do not remember or, if they remember, do not care. Their publications are intended to communicate, and this can be achieved by using terms in a sense generally shared by authors, editors, reviewers, and readers. Though a few purists may find the usage objectionable, "dinosaur" in the paraphyletic sense is such a term.
I have cited Butler et al. (2011), "Sea level, dinosaur diversity and sampling biases". The article is not concerned with birds, but its five authors have not made a mistake in choosing their title, since they know that the the title will not mislead their likely readers or the many other specialists who see the title in the "References" sections of later articles. It is simple to find other examples. Ray Stanford and coauthors recently published an article entitled "The first hatchling dinosaur reported from the eastern United States", a title that does not strike readers as absurd only because they do not expect "dinosaur" to include birds. Grigorescu (2005) says of material from the Haţeg basin that it "does not belong to birds, but to theropods", with no suggestion that it could be both. Chiappe and Witmer have a book out entitled Mesozoic Birds: Above the Heads of the Dinosaurs, a title that deliberately evokes the image of birds and dinosaurs as separate groups, one flying above the other.
Further multiplication of examples would be easy, but these will do. As a perfunctory nod to the cladists, paleontologists often toss in the term "non-avian" here and there as a redundant ornament in their publications, but they freely use "dinosaur" without that qualification in their titles and in other places in their articles, understanding that reviewers and readers will naturally understand that they are not talking about birds.
What then of the paleontologists who attempt to persuade the public to include birds in the scope of the term "dinosaur", the "PhyloCode posse" in Petter Bøckman's phrase? If I am correct in the foregoing, this endeavor is a dishonest abuse of the esteem in which the public holds scientists. They are saying, "We scientists see things this way, and we're experts, so you should see things the same way," when in fact scientists generally do not see things in the way described. A scientist who writes for a lay readership should be attempting to bring popular understanding into line with that of the scientific community; where the understandings are already aligned, the responsible course is to leave matters alone, even if the writer disagrees.
Why should scientists who are scrupulously honest in their technical work practice this sort of deception in their popular writings? And why are they not roundly criticized by other professionals who are not guilty of this sort of hypocrisy? I can only speculate.
Perhaps the members of the PhyloCode posse are driven by an evangelistic passion to disseminate their point of view and do not give sufficient thought to the fact that they are trading, illegitimately, on their prestige as scientists. Though they may disapprove of the way other paleontologists regularly use language, they acquiesce since these others are also members of the elite, but this tolerance does not extend to the masses. Members of the posse may even have a selective blindness to the unapproved way that their colleagues use terms, seeing all paleontologists as fellow cladists. These colleagues may hesitate to challenge the posse's popularizations partly because they do not want to get involved in the highly charged debate around the PhyloCode and partly because there is no obvious forum in which they can present objections. Perhaps someone deeply familiar with the course of dinosaur studies in the past twenty years could write an exposé for The New Yorker ? It hasn't happened yet.
It is doubtless impossible wholly to prevent Wikipedia from being used as a tool for the promotion of the cladist agenda. Ego White Tray is to be commended for making an attempt to at least reduce the influence of the PhyloCode posse. Even if he (or she?) is totally unsuccessful, there will be other efforts, some of which may fare better.
Peter Brown ( talk) 22:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)