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thats the book i cited chapter 'borders of hellenism' pages 144-145 in the book epirus...read the pages 87.202.27.214 ( talk) 00:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
m.b. hatzopoulos states the the city has a nongreek name no greek founding myths and the mix of greek and nongreek names points to a later hellenization of an originally parthinian settlement 87.202.27.214 ( talk) 00:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
...and the cambridge ancient history is a good general work i dont think its necessray to quote whole paragraphs pages are enough 87.202.27.214 ( talk) 01:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Here is the quote, from the book, that the i.p. editor insisted: [ [1]] (p. 145)
The very late appearance of the Greek element, combined with the fact that the city does not have a Greek name and there is no tradition ascribing its foundation to Greeks, gives the impression that Dimale did not have a Greek character from the begining, but was rather a center of the Parthinoi that was hellenized late under the influence of Appolonia...
I see 3 if's, on the contrary the i.p. editor is more certain in his conclution adding it as a certainty from the lead. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
its not 3 ifs its 3 becauses...we cant be absolutely certain about the linguistic situation in ancient epirus and south illyria its the evidence that points to a greek dominance in epirus and later hellenization of south illyria...greek editors on one hand dispute the latter yugoslav...or actually slav macedonian since they are ones that have the beef and not serbs for example...and albanian editors dispute the former can we be a bit reasonable...? hatzopoulos is a good scholar and is clear about dimale 87.202.59.4 ( talk) 20:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
oh and the chapter is written by hatzopoulos not sakellariou...whos the editor of the volume...like you wrote elsewhere 87.202.59.4 ( talk) 20:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
yes im repeating it because you arent listening...i shortened the book title to 'epirus' theres only ONE epirus by EKDOTIKE ATHENON 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
"The situation at the land of the Parthinoi can be traced only at Dimale, which though never explicitly stated to be a city of the Parthinoi, is frequently linked with them at the sources.At this city, Greek inscriptions have been found, written in a north-west Greek or Doric dialect, the institutions mentioned in them are Greek (prytanis,phylarhos), and Greek monumental structures have come to light (a stoa).The onomasticon appears to be mixed, however, with Greek names typical of both Epirus and the Corinthian colonies, and with non-Greek personal names.The very late appearance of Greek elements combined with the fact that the city does not have a Greek name and there is no tradition ascribing its foundation to Greeks, gives the impression that Dimale did not have a Greek charakter from the beggining, but was rather a center or the Parthinoi that was hellenized under the influence of Apollonia on the one had and the kingdom of Epirus on the other."
Megistias ( talk) 15:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
hatzopoulos cant be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN he says that the most likely explanation is that it was originally illyrian...so whats your problem with naming it as illyrian in the intro rather than ancient greek?? who cares about the shortened title of the book thats the least... 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:18, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
actually my original version was much better because it discussed the uncertainties in the article and not in a footnote but you didnt like that one either.. 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
ok see now.. 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
i think the intro is ok now 85.73.219.34 ( talk) 16:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
the intro is much better now take a look..'please' + report doesnt compute either..no discussion no sources to show other views does the article belong to you..? 85.73.219.34 ( talk) 17:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
why do you care about the title??? can you comment on the info?? 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:12, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
so now you doubt my citation of hammond about the possible greek etymology and founding of the city even though this is the whole point of contention here with you refusing to add 'uncertain possibly greek possibly illyrian' instead of 'certainly greek'??? what a chracter... 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
'The city may have been founded c. 290 B.C. by Pyrrhus or his successors (Or it might have been an offshoot of Apollonia, like the colonies of Syracuse which became inde- pendent.)'
'It is a Greek word meaning ' of double fleece ', very suitable to a place overlooking the rich sheep-pastures of the Myzeqija.'
HAMMOND
85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
since you have read hatzopoulos article i wont post it... 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
i added the info that you asked for the article can be found here [2] 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
its in page 15...read the article..why are you acting dumb?? 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
you need access...im done here 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
there were NO removals only additions...the extra 1kb is due to you citing PARAGRAPHS out of your sources..so in fact its you who is doing "vast removals". also its pretty silly to accuse hammond, hatzopoulos (because THESE ARE THE SOURCES I USED) and a greek editor of 'albanian assumptions of modern nationalistic composition' whatever that means.. 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 23:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
and the 'data pertaining to the site' were mostly added by me in the first place and are still in the article so.. 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 23:24, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Why I have the feeling that you misuse Sakellariou (there is a 3 if hypothesis of it being initially Illyrian ihabited, you seem you don't like it). By the way what's this childish map removal? Alexikoua ( talk) 08:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
the map can stay its not that attractive but i couldnt care less about it..im not misusing hatzopoulos AT ALL thats his argumentation for the settlement being originally illyrian with a later influx of greeks (or hellenization)..just notice the content that megistias removed in his fury of mentioning 'greek settlmenet' right in the intro... 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 08:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
The town is considered Illyrian, while its foundation is uncertain. Deleting all the sources and presenting a disputed view, which is included in the foundation theories, as the single authoritative view goes against too many policies.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Actually references disagree with the above claims. There are 2 possible theories: Dimale was founded by Pyrrhus, or by settlers from Appollonia. That Dimale was in the region of Illyria it doesn't mean that it wasn't a colony: see for example Lissus, Epidamnus, they are also non-Illyrian cities-colonies founded by non-Illyrian people in Illyrian soil. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Seems that Wilkes is very precise on this: "a settlement in the territory of the Parthini". Excactly what the present version describes. I will make the appropriate adjustments on lead so that both claims (Parthini and Greek colony version) are equally presented. So, it would be kind of you not to remove the one version for the usual reasons. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I will make it simple: A settlement on X territory can also mean that this was founded as a colony by non-X people (I can name dozens examples in Illyria). In fact that's what the sources claim. Please stick carefully on Hammond, which is mysteriously removed without the slightest explanation, but needs to be equally presented on lead. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:03, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
(unindent) You deleted 4 sources and used the summary to say I removed content. In the past you did the same thing on Athenagoras and I had to contact an administrator for you to accept that you deleted sources. Moreover you're again making statements about edits that I never did as I never added that it was a Parthinian settlement.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
I made a quick research for Dimale and I couldn't find anyone who claims that Dimale was an Illyrian city or that it was founded as Illyrian. If there is any source please provide. So far Hammond gives it as Greek. Hatzopoulos gives it as -probably - mixed. But the following source is probably enough.“Public organization in ancient Greece: a documentary study” By professor Nicholas F. Jones (Department of Classics, University of Pittsburgh). Jones presents a long list of Greek cities and their public institutions. He has listed Dimale as a northwestern Greek city. (Public organization in ancient Greece: a documentary study” Nicholas F. Jones page 157 Chapter IV: The Northwest: Issa, Epidamnos, Dimale (or Dimallon), Apollonia, Kerkyra ). Further more all the archaeological evidence only prove the Greek character of the city. Of course every Greek colony close to Illyrian territory had also illyrian population, just like Illyria had Greek settlers and even Greek rulers. Probably those settlements like Dimale were heavily mixed but remain mainly Greek.
Is there any reference to back up this sentence :”It possibly means "two peaks", from a root *mal-, see Albanian mal "mountain" and Romanian mal "bank" but also e.g. Latvian mala "bank, shore”? I have a feeling that this is either original reserch or folk etymology.
Seleukosa (
talk)
00:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
A reference for the toponym here or here. Read the article in pdf before commenting Aigest ( talk) 09:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Since we have a mountain of bibliography, it seems reasonable to mention the disputed character of the city in lead section. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
AFAIK linguists maintain that the name Dimale/Dimallum was an Illyrian placename
So linguists opinion is that the name of the city is an Illyrian one. For a ref to the meaning of that name see the link above. Aigest ( talk) 10:23, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
thanks to a long discussion here, now we have a clear picture on Dimale etymology as follows:
So different generations of linguists have given the same explanation for over 150 years, from 1851 up to nowadays. AFAIK no linguist has challenged that, so I guess we can be pretty sure on linguistic bases. Aigest ( talk) 12:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.Hammond's 1968 theory can be also considered outdated as there have been much research on the field in the last years by linguists, none of whom reports that μαλλός > Dimale. On the contrary, recent scholarly works support that Dimale belongs to the southeastern Illyrian onomastic area and that it is related to mal, "mountain", "hill", "river shore" etc. – Βατο ( talk) 10:57, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
mal: "shore, bank, edge." Thracian toponym Malua, Dacia Maluensis, translated to Dacia Ripensis, also Illyrian Malontum, Dimallum, cf., Alb. Dimale, "two mountains." The ancient Albanian form is reconstructed as *mol-no; modern Alb. mal, "mountain," Romanian mal, "bank, mountain."( Illyés, Elemér (1988, 2nd (revised) edition 1992). Ethnic continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian area, p. 220. There is a clear consensus among linguists, μαλλός > Dimale is WP:FRINGE. – Βατο ( talk) 21:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.– Βατο ( talk) 21:33, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
The word ΔΙΜΑΛΛΙΤΑΝ written with the broken-bar alpha has the same form of genitive and much the same lettering as ΛΙΣΣΙΤΑΝ on coins of Lissus attributable to some time within the period 250-200 B.C. The name of the city at this time was evidently Δίμαλλος or Δίμαλλον as we find Dimallum in Livy. It is a Greek word meaning ' of double fleece ', very suitable to a place overlooking the rich sheep-pastures of the Myzeqija.And provides this footnote by not citing any linguist:
The MS of Polybius give Διμαλλη, Διμαλη, Διμαλοη and Διμαλλον at 3, 18 and 7, 9, 13. See δίμαλλος in Glossaria, and Hdt. 9, 92 for the famous sheep of Apolloniatis feeding 'by the river'.It seems to be not reliable for an etymology. – Βατο ( talk) 21:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words(page 1790, written by Matzinger). Hence, wherever a possible Illyrian or Messapian origin is present, Albanian is going to be relevant. When one is so unfamiliar with Albanian that you misspell one of the largest regions of Albania so that has "I was in the process of fucking" (literal translation) embedded in the name, with no credentials whatsoever in linguistics, and the basis of the argument is that the area is currently great for sheep pastures (note: Myzeqeja was a malarial swamp just decades before he wrote that, so you can see things change with time)... it's not RS for an etymology. -- Calthinus ( talk) 03:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Alexikoua has added sources with links from other works, while the ones he's supposedly citing don't mention the town. He also reverted again Hammond's theory about the territory i.e WP:FRINGE. Hammond is the only author who claims that so please don't present his views as those of the authority on the subject. That being said why did he label his version as the stable one? Also by changing the wording, while maintaining the sources there's source misrepresentation.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:11, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted a sockaccount's edit with a highly disruptive history log (that's stable version). Why Hammond is fringe while he is widely established in bibliography as mentioned above The precise location of Dimallum and the correct form of the name are now established by the find of stamped tiles at the fort of Krotine: see Hammond ? That Dimale was possible (and not certainly) situated on Parthinian territory is stated by Hatzopoulos. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
The city's mixed character is widely established in bibliography. So, in case a long established concensus is again disrupted we need to provide the necessary explanations in talkpage (I expect more serious explanations than accussing Hammond of being of minor importance or patialy misusing Hatzopoulos). Alexikoua ( talk) 12:40, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
In recent sources, historians and archaeologists consider the 4th century BC proto-urban settlement to have been of an indigenous character, and to have developed into an urban settlement in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, when it reached its floruit under the influence of nearby Apollonia. Here is a recent publication that reports the current views among scholars: Lasagni, Chiara (2019). Le realtà locali nel mondo greco: Ricerche su poleis ed ethne della Grecia occidentale. p. 65:
"l’insediamento illirico venne fortificato nel IV sec. a.C.; nel periodo III-II sec. a.C. la città conobbe il suo floruit, accompagnato da un’intensa attività urbanistica: a questa fase risale, tra le altre cose, l’edificazione di una nuova cinta muraria e del teatro; lavorazioni e materiali sembrano testimoniare un intenso scambio con la vicina Apollonia."
È da considerarsi del tutto superata l’ipotesi, avanzata da Hammond 1968, 14-15, che Dimalla fosse una polis di origine greca, fondata sotto Pirro con un contingente di coloni da Apollonia; cf. infatti Hatzopoulos 1997, 145, che indica piuttosto questa città come centro dell’ethnos illirico dei Parthini, senza alcuna origine greca, ma tardivamente ellenizzato grazie all’influenza di Apollonia e del koinon degli Epiroti.
Archaeologists have also discovered Illyrian koina that were unattested in ancient sources, the Dimallitai and Balaieitai located near the hinterland of Apollonia. The article should be rewritten and expanded with recent publications. – Βατο ( talk) 10:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
one of the main Illyrian settlements near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthinitakes in account the attested informations from ancient sources and is fully supported by recent publications. – Βατο ( talk) 23:12, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
The town experienced its climax in the Hellenistic period between the 3rd and 2nd centuuries B.C., during a phase marked by intense urban planning, including the construction of a new city wall and the building of a theater very much organised on a Greek model.But the part:
one of the main Illyrian settlements near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthinishould be restored, so that the lead will respect the current consensus among scholars. – Βατο ( talk) 00:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
one of the main Illyrian settlements near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthiniis an information that agrees with that, is attested in ancient sources, and is fully supported by all recent bibliography, whether you like it or not. – Βατο ( talk) 10:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
"Then there was the establishment of a new type of site in the Illyrian hinterland, away from the coastal areas usually inhabited by Greeks, especially during the developed Iron Age, which have come to be known as ‘proto-urban’ centres (...). These proto-urban centres are different to komai in many important respects, not least that they are fortified. It is not yet fully understood whether sites such as Margëlliç, Gurëzezë, Mashkjezë, Byllis, Klos/Nikaiaand Dimal (Kalaja e Krotinës) represent true towns, hilltop refuges, or regional tradingand meeting places (...) [...] Also unclear are the processes by which these Illyrian ‘proto-urban’ sites developed, as well as the relationship of these centres to one another and to the coastal colonies. A particularly vexed problem with all of these sites is the issue of their chronology, and conclusive evidence for the initial stages of their period of use is usually lacking. At Mashkjezë, the earliest cultural layers are dated to the Archaic period on the basis of imported Greek pottery, and a similar date is suggested for Margëlliç, though thelatter has furnished some evidence, albeit limited, of use in the Mycenaean period. The exact chronology of Gurëzezë is far from clear, while at Klos-Nikaia there is little that clearly predates the 5th century BC (...)."
"Looking at the rise of population centres throughout southern Illyria, thedevelopment from occupied hilltops to proto-urban sites has been mapped out by several scholars (...). The earliest of three phases is usually dated to the Late Bronze Age and is often named after the type-site of Badher. The second, pre-urban, phase is characterised by the sites at Gajtanand Trajan, while the third, full-fedged proto-urban phase sees numerous fortified hilltop sites all over southern Illyria, generally dated to the 7th-5th centuries BC. It is debatable, however, whether the pre-urban sites such as Gajtan were in any way ‘urban’ during their earlier phases; evidence for occupation within the walls is scant,and the sites are better characterised as hill-forts rather than towns. Whatever the historical trajectory of proto-urban centres, the important points to bear in mind are, first of all, the continuance of the colonial foundations in the later Classical, Hellenistic and Roman periods, and that, secondly, by the 4th or 3rd century much of southern Illyria lived ostensibly in Greek-looking cities."
"l’insediamento illirico venne fortificato nel IV sec. a.C.; nel periodo III-II sec. a.C. la città conobbe il suo floruit, accompagnato da un’intensa attività urbanistica: a questa fase risale, tra le altre cose, l’edificazione di una nuova cinta muraria e del teatro; lavorazioni e materiali sembrano testimoniare un intenso scambio con la vicina Apollonia."
"Dimale near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthini"is sourced with Šašel Kos, Appian and Illyricum (2005) p. 406, a statement that takes in account in a very balanced way all the conclusions of modern scholars and the fact that Dimale appears always in ancient sources along with the Parthini. – Βατο ( talk) 10:06, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Dimale near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthiniand
never explicitly stated as a settlement of the Parthiniare not mutually exclusive. Thus, they can both be included. There's also a problem with WP:OUTDATED material. Many publications don't accept submissions that have been published more than 8 or even 5 years earlier than contemporary research. But in wikipedia, some editors insist on the use of sources from the 1990s and even the 80s in the context of the interpretation of archaeological material, although there is an archaeological project about Dimal by the University of Köln, which has listed all current bibliography that would be required if anyone chose to write a paper about it.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
As I see the Rubini-Zaio paper is solely based on research (Cavalli-Sforza) which is already rejected in past RSN (Unfortunately Cavalli Sforza is way out of date. If Wikipedia has to use only out of date materials we come into conflict with NPOV because we distort our reporting of reality. etc.) [ [20]]. I new RSN might overturn the initial conclusion, but I hardly doubt if any mention to an "Illyrian-Albanian population during the first millennium BCE" can be a strong argument for inclusion in wikipedia. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Though the map about the pre Roman situattion was well established by multiple Balkan (Albanian included) editors it appears that recently a tendency needs to get rid of it without precise arguments. Needless to say that a centralised discussion is needed for this matter since the topic concerns a wide scope of articles. In the case a Dimale its painted half Greek half Illyrian. Nothing wrong on this too. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I can't comment on content, or not much, but I did just revert Khirurg because invoking JDL is no argument at all, especially when there is a discussion here (to which they have not contributed) with arguments. Khirurg, that's not to say I think the map shouldn't be in there, but you can't use that argument, certainly not without commenting here. What I can say about the map is that it is ugly and completely unclear, and that if indeed it shows places and names as they appeared over time, it's a lousy map. But that is something for editors to decide. Drmies ( talk) 19:16, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
[ [21]] I'm afraid this equals wp:IDONTLIKEIT. Perhaps the editor needs to explain why this specific one word is not good enough for addition. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:37, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree that those blind removals are unacceptable and nonconstructive. Not sure what you are trying to say, but I want to give you a kind suggestion. If you use GoogleTranslate to translate other editors' comments, then try another translation website. See what Muka, Hatzopoulos and Jaupaj say: that Greek character came from Greek influence. Only one source says it was a Greek settlement. So it can be added to the lede that the settlement had Greek influence, or a similar solution. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:44, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
There Sasel Kos is opposed by one source, here by several. If you want to make changes to the article, post them here and gain consensus before. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 23:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
"È da considerarsi del tutto superata l'ipotesi, avanzata da Hammond 1968, 14-15, che Dimalla fosse una polis di origine greca, fondata sotto Pirro con un contingente di coloni da Apollonia", you are welcome. – Βατο ( talk) 00:38, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Demetrius fortified the naturally well defended town of Dimale and secured for himself the local governments in other Illyrian cities , while he quartered 6000 of the bravest soldiers at Pharos.and
When the Roman army attacked and defeated Demetrius , the Illyrians offered little resistance , even Demetrius ' stronghold Dimale ( presentday Krotina ) , " " near , or perhaps within , the territory of the Parthini , fell in seven days. Now, can we cite bibliography only if it actually discusses something and not if it mentions it via some one word reference? (Side comment: There's no reason to recreate disputes) Thank you.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:26, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
The specific paper and especially scholar is highly respected in the international academic community. There is no way to have it simply removed. At least an RSN should decide about it. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:28, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
In the Hellenistic period (between the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC) the town experienced its climax, during a phase marked by intense urban planning, including the construction of a new city wall and the building of several stoas, a temple, and a theater, showing a significant influence of the Ancient Greek culture on the local Illyrian inhabitants.in the lead section is a balanced wording. – Βατο ( talk) 00:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
removed text:
How can this information be unrelated to this settlement? Please take a deep breath and reconsider. I propose the addition of the above text without attribution since those conclusions are not contradicted in scholarship. It's really weird that you removed everything about the city's Hellenization and onomastics. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
The very late appearance of Greek elements combined with the fact that the city does not have a Greek name and there is no tradition ascribing its foundation to Greeks, gives the impression that Dimale did not have a Greek charakter from the beginning, but was rather a center or the Parthinoi that was hellenized under the influence of Apollonia on the one had and the kingdom of Epirus on the other."is obsolete, in recent scholarship there is no doubt that the settlement was founded by Illyrians and later experienced the influence of ancient Greek culture. While the article already includes due weight content about Parthini: "[Dimale] was situated in the vicinity or within the territory of the Parthini". As for the provenance of the Greek influences, the section Dimale#Findings and organization provides detailed information. – Βατο ( talk) 02:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Per ciò che concerne la sezione dedicata alle Poleis, mi riferisco in particolare al caso delle comunità ellenizzate dei Dimallitai e dei Balaieitai, la cui analisi costituisce una sorta di appendice rispetto all’esame delle realtà locali nelle città corinzie, e in particolare di Apollonia, come peculiare esito di nuovi equilibri regionali prodottisi nel tardo III sec. a.C.I assume you can translate [ [25]] comunità ellenizzate. To sum up: Hatzopoulos conclusion isn't obsolete. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:34, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
È da considerarsi del tutto superata l’ipotesi, avanzata da Hammond 1968, 14-15, che Dimalla fosse una polis di origine greca, fondata sotto Pirro con un contingente di coloni da Apollonia; cf. infatti Hatzopoulos 1997, 145, che indica piuttosto questa città come centro dell’ethnos illirico dei Parthini, senza alcuna origine greca, ma tardivamente ellenizzato grazie all’influenza di Apollonia e del koinon degli Epiroti.
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thats the book i cited chapter 'borders of hellenism' pages 144-145 in the book epirus...read the pages 87.202.27.214 ( talk) 00:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
m.b. hatzopoulos states the the city has a nongreek name no greek founding myths and the mix of greek and nongreek names points to a later hellenization of an originally parthinian settlement 87.202.27.214 ( talk) 00:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
...and the cambridge ancient history is a good general work i dont think its necessray to quote whole paragraphs pages are enough 87.202.27.214 ( talk) 01:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Here is the quote, from the book, that the i.p. editor insisted: [ [1]] (p. 145)
The very late appearance of the Greek element, combined with the fact that the city does not have a Greek name and there is no tradition ascribing its foundation to Greeks, gives the impression that Dimale did not have a Greek character from the begining, but was rather a center of the Parthinoi that was hellenized late under the influence of Appolonia...
I see 3 if's, on the contrary the i.p. editor is more certain in his conclution adding it as a certainty from the lead. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
its not 3 ifs its 3 becauses...we cant be absolutely certain about the linguistic situation in ancient epirus and south illyria its the evidence that points to a greek dominance in epirus and later hellenization of south illyria...greek editors on one hand dispute the latter yugoslav...or actually slav macedonian since they are ones that have the beef and not serbs for example...and albanian editors dispute the former can we be a bit reasonable...? hatzopoulos is a good scholar and is clear about dimale 87.202.59.4 ( talk) 20:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
oh and the chapter is written by hatzopoulos not sakellariou...whos the editor of the volume...like you wrote elsewhere 87.202.59.4 ( talk) 20:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
yes im repeating it because you arent listening...i shortened the book title to 'epirus' theres only ONE epirus by EKDOTIKE ATHENON 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
"The situation at the land of the Parthinoi can be traced only at Dimale, which though never explicitly stated to be a city of the Parthinoi, is frequently linked with them at the sources.At this city, Greek inscriptions have been found, written in a north-west Greek or Doric dialect, the institutions mentioned in them are Greek (prytanis,phylarhos), and Greek monumental structures have come to light (a stoa).The onomasticon appears to be mixed, however, with Greek names typical of both Epirus and the Corinthian colonies, and with non-Greek personal names.The very late appearance of Greek elements combined with the fact that the city does not have a Greek name and there is no tradition ascribing its foundation to Greeks, gives the impression that Dimale did not have a Greek charakter from the beggining, but was rather a center or the Parthinoi that was hellenized under the influence of Apollonia on the one had and the kingdom of Epirus on the other."
Megistias ( talk) 15:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
hatzopoulos cant be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN he says that the most likely explanation is that it was originally illyrian...so whats your problem with naming it as illyrian in the intro rather than ancient greek?? who cares about the shortened title of the book thats the least... 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:18, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
actually my original version was much better because it discussed the uncertainties in the article and not in a footnote but you didnt like that one either.. 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
ok see now.. 87.202.1.78 ( talk) 15:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
i think the intro is ok now 85.73.219.34 ( talk) 16:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
the intro is much better now take a look..'please' + report doesnt compute either..no discussion no sources to show other views does the article belong to you..? 85.73.219.34 ( talk) 17:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
why do you care about the title??? can you comment on the info?? 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:12, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
so now you doubt my citation of hammond about the possible greek etymology and founding of the city even though this is the whole point of contention here with you refusing to add 'uncertain possibly greek possibly illyrian' instead of 'certainly greek'??? what a chracter... 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
'The city may have been founded c. 290 B.C. by Pyrrhus or his successors (Or it might have been an offshoot of Apollonia, like the colonies of Syracuse which became inde- pendent.)'
'It is a Greek word meaning ' of double fleece ', very suitable to a place overlooking the rich sheep-pastures of the Myzeqija.'
HAMMOND
85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
since you have read hatzopoulos article i wont post it... 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
i added the info that you asked for the article can be found here [2] 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
its in page 15...read the article..why are you acting dumb?? 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
you need access...im done here 85.73.218.238 ( talk) 18:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
there were NO removals only additions...the extra 1kb is due to you citing PARAGRAPHS out of your sources..so in fact its you who is doing "vast removals". also its pretty silly to accuse hammond, hatzopoulos (because THESE ARE THE SOURCES I USED) and a greek editor of 'albanian assumptions of modern nationalistic composition' whatever that means.. 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 23:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
and the 'data pertaining to the site' were mostly added by me in the first place and are still in the article so.. 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 23:24, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Why I have the feeling that you misuse Sakellariou (there is a 3 if hypothesis of it being initially Illyrian ihabited, you seem you don't like it). By the way what's this childish map removal? Alexikoua ( talk) 08:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
the map can stay its not that attractive but i couldnt care less about it..im not misusing hatzopoulos AT ALL thats his argumentation for the settlement being originally illyrian with a later influx of greeks (or hellenization)..just notice the content that megistias removed in his fury of mentioning 'greek settlmenet' right in the intro... 85.73.217.158 ( talk) 08:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
The town is considered Illyrian, while its foundation is uncertain. Deleting all the sources and presenting a disputed view, which is included in the foundation theories, as the single authoritative view goes against too many policies.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Actually references disagree with the above claims. There are 2 possible theories: Dimale was founded by Pyrrhus, or by settlers from Appollonia. That Dimale was in the region of Illyria it doesn't mean that it wasn't a colony: see for example Lissus, Epidamnus, they are also non-Illyrian cities-colonies founded by non-Illyrian people in Illyrian soil. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Seems that Wilkes is very precise on this: "a settlement in the territory of the Parthini". Excactly what the present version describes. I will make the appropriate adjustments on lead so that both claims (Parthini and Greek colony version) are equally presented. So, it would be kind of you not to remove the one version for the usual reasons. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I will make it simple: A settlement on X territory can also mean that this was founded as a colony by non-X people (I can name dozens examples in Illyria). In fact that's what the sources claim. Please stick carefully on Hammond, which is mysteriously removed without the slightest explanation, but needs to be equally presented on lead. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:03, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
(unindent) You deleted 4 sources and used the summary to say I removed content. In the past you did the same thing on Athenagoras and I had to contact an administrator for you to accept that you deleted sources. Moreover you're again making statements about edits that I never did as I never added that it was a Parthinian settlement.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
I made a quick research for Dimale and I couldn't find anyone who claims that Dimale was an Illyrian city or that it was founded as Illyrian. If there is any source please provide. So far Hammond gives it as Greek. Hatzopoulos gives it as -probably - mixed. But the following source is probably enough.“Public organization in ancient Greece: a documentary study” By professor Nicholas F. Jones (Department of Classics, University of Pittsburgh). Jones presents a long list of Greek cities and their public institutions. He has listed Dimale as a northwestern Greek city. (Public organization in ancient Greece: a documentary study” Nicholas F. Jones page 157 Chapter IV: The Northwest: Issa, Epidamnos, Dimale (or Dimallon), Apollonia, Kerkyra ). Further more all the archaeological evidence only prove the Greek character of the city. Of course every Greek colony close to Illyrian territory had also illyrian population, just like Illyria had Greek settlers and even Greek rulers. Probably those settlements like Dimale were heavily mixed but remain mainly Greek.
Is there any reference to back up this sentence :”It possibly means "two peaks", from a root *mal-, see Albanian mal "mountain" and Romanian mal "bank" but also e.g. Latvian mala "bank, shore”? I have a feeling that this is either original reserch or folk etymology.
Seleukosa (
talk)
00:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
A reference for the toponym here or here. Read the article in pdf before commenting Aigest ( talk) 09:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Since we have a mountain of bibliography, it seems reasonable to mention the disputed character of the city in lead section. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
AFAIK linguists maintain that the name Dimale/Dimallum was an Illyrian placename
So linguists opinion is that the name of the city is an Illyrian one. For a ref to the meaning of that name see the link above. Aigest ( talk) 10:23, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
thanks to a long discussion here, now we have a clear picture on Dimale etymology as follows:
So different generations of linguists have given the same explanation for over 150 years, from 1851 up to nowadays. AFAIK no linguist has challenged that, so I guess we can be pretty sure on linguistic bases. Aigest ( talk) 12:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.Hammond's 1968 theory can be also considered outdated as there have been much research on the field in the last years by linguists, none of whom reports that μαλλός > Dimale. On the contrary, recent scholarly works support that Dimale belongs to the southeastern Illyrian onomastic area and that it is related to mal, "mountain", "hill", "river shore" etc. – Βατο ( talk) 10:57, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
mal: "shore, bank, edge." Thracian toponym Malua, Dacia Maluensis, translated to Dacia Ripensis, also Illyrian Malontum, Dimallum, cf., Alb. Dimale, "two mountains." The ancient Albanian form is reconstructed as *mol-no; modern Alb. mal, "mountain," Romanian mal, "bank, mountain."( Illyés, Elemér (1988, 2nd (revised) edition 1992). Ethnic continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian area, p. 220. There is a clear consensus among linguists, μαλλός > Dimale is WP:FRINGE. – Βατο ( talk) 21:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.– Βατο ( talk) 21:33, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
The word ΔΙΜΑΛΛΙΤΑΝ written with the broken-bar alpha has the same form of genitive and much the same lettering as ΛΙΣΣΙΤΑΝ on coins of Lissus attributable to some time within the period 250-200 B.C. The name of the city at this time was evidently Δίμαλλος or Δίμαλλον as we find Dimallum in Livy. It is a Greek word meaning ' of double fleece ', very suitable to a place overlooking the rich sheep-pastures of the Myzeqija.And provides this footnote by not citing any linguist:
The MS of Polybius give Διμαλλη, Διμαλη, Διμαλοη and Διμαλλον at 3, 18 and 7, 9, 13. See δίμαλλος in Glossaria, and Hdt. 9, 92 for the famous sheep of Apolloniatis feeding 'by the river'.It seems to be not reliable for an etymology. – Βατο ( talk) 21:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words(page 1790, written by Matzinger). Hence, wherever a possible Illyrian or Messapian origin is present, Albanian is going to be relevant. When one is so unfamiliar with Albanian that you misspell one of the largest regions of Albania so that has "I was in the process of fucking" (literal translation) embedded in the name, with no credentials whatsoever in linguistics, and the basis of the argument is that the area is currently great for sheep pastures (note: Myzeqeja was a malarial swamp just decades before he wrote that, so you can see things change with time)... it's not RS for an etymology. -- Calthinus ( talk) 03:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Alexikoua has added sources with links from other works, while the ones he's supposedly citing don't mention the town. He also reverted again Hammond's theory about the territory i.e WP:FRINGE. Hammond is the only author who claims that so please don't present his views as those of the authority on the subject. That being said why did he label his version as the stable one? Also by changing the wording, while maintaining the sources there's source misrepresentation.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:11, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted a sockaccount's edit with a highly disruptive history log (that's stable version). Why Hammond is fringe while he is widely established in bibliography as mentioned above The precise location of Dimallum and the correct form of the name are now established by the find of stamped tiles at the fort of Krotine: see Hammond ? That Dimale was possible (and not certainly) situated on Parthinian territory is stated by Hatzopoulos. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
The city's mixed character is widely established in bibliography. So, in case a long established concensus is again disrupted we need to provide the necessary explanations in talkpage (I expect more serious explanations than accussing Hammond of being of minor importance or patialy misusing Hatzopoulos). Alexikoua ( talk) 12:40, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
In recent sources, historians and archaeologists consider the 4th century BC proto-urban settlement to have been of an indigenous character, and to have developed into an urban settlement in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, when it reached its floruit under the influence of nearby Apollonia. Here is a recent publication that reports the current views among scholars: Lasagni, Chiara (2019). Le realtà locali nel mondo greco: Ricerche su poleis ed ethne della Grecia occidentale. p. 65:
"l’insediamento illirico venne fortificato nel IV sec. a.C.; nel periodo III-II sec. a.C. la città conobbe il suo floruit, accompagnato da un’intensa attività urbanistica: a questa fase risale, tra le altre cose, l’edificazione di una nuova cinta muraria e del teatro; lavorazioni e materiali sembrano testimoniare un intenso scambio con la vicina Apollonia."
È da considerarsi del tutto superata l’ipotesi, avanzata da Hammond 1968, 14-15, che Dimalla fosse una polis di origine greca, fondata sotto Pirro con un contingente di coloni da Apollonia; cf. infatti Hatzopoulos 1997, 145, che indica piuttosto questa città come centro dell’ethnos illirico dei Parthini, senza alcuna origine greca, ma tardivamente ellenizzato grazie all’influenza di Apollonia e del koinon degli Epiroti.
Archaeologists have also discovered Illyrian koina that were unattested in ancient sources, the Dimallitai and Balaieitai located near the hinterland of Apollonia. The article should be rewritten and expanded with recent publications. – Βατο ( talk) 10:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
one of the main Illyrian settlements near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthinitakes in account the attested informations from ancient sources and is fully supported by recent publications. – Βατο ( talk) 23:12, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
The town experienced its climax in the Hellenistic period between the 3rd and 2nd centuuries B.C., during a phase marked by intense urban planning, including the construction of a new city wall and the building of a theater very much organised on a Greek model.But the part:
one of the main Illyrian settlements near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthinishould be restored, so that the lead will respect the current consensus among scholars. – Βατο ( talk) 00:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
one of the main Illyrian settlements near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthiniis an information that agrees with that, is attested in ancient sources, and is fully supported by all recent bibliography, whether you like it or not. – Βατο ( talk) 10:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
"Then there was the establishment of a new type of site in the Illyrian hinterland, away from the coastal areas usually inhabited by Greeks, especially during the developed Iron Age, which have come to be known as ‘proto-urban’ centres (...). These proto-urban centres are different to komai in many important respects, not least that they are fortified. It is not yet fully understood whether sites such as Margëlliç, Gurëzezë, Mashkjezë, Byllis, Klos/Nikaiaand Dimal (Kalaja e Krotinës) represent true towns, hilltop refuges, or regional tradingand meeting places (...) [...] Also unclear are the processes by which these Illyrian ‘proto-urban’ sites developed, as well as the relationship of these centres to one another and to the coastal colonies. A particularly vexed problem with all of these sites is the issue of their chronology, and conclusive evidence for the initial stages of their period of use is usually lacking. At Mashkjezë, the earliest cultural layers are dated to the Archaic period on the basis of imported Greek pottery, and a similar date is suggested for Margëlliç, though thelatter has furnished some evidence, albeit limited, of use in the Mycenaean period. The exact chronology of Gurëzezë is far from clear, while at Klos-Nikaia there is little that clearly predates the 5th century BC (...)."
"Looking at the rise of population centres throughout southern Illyria, thedevelopment from occupied hilltops to proto-urban sites has been mapped out by several scholars (...). The earliest of three phases is usually dated to the Late Bronze Age and is often named after the type-site of Badher. The second, pre-urban, phase is characterised by the sites at Gajtanand Trajan, while the third, full-fedged proto-urban phase sees numerous fortified hilltop sites all over southern Illyria, generally dated to the 7th-5th centuries BC. It is debatable, however, whether the pre-urban sites such as Gajtan were in any way ‘urban’ during their earlier phases; evidence for occupation within the walls is scant,and the sites are better characterised as hill-forts rather than towns. Whatever the historical trajectory of proto-urban centres, the important points to bear in mind are, first of all, the continuance of the colonial foundations in the later Classical, Hellenistic and Roman periods, and that, secondly, by the 4th or 3rd century much of southern Illyria lived ostensibly in Greek-looking cities."
"l’insediamento illirico venne fortificato nel IV sec. a.C.; nel periodo III-II sec. a.C. la città conobbe il suo floruit, accompagnato da un’intensa attività urbanistica: a questa fase risale, tra le altre cose, l’edificazione di una nuova cinta muraria e del teatro; lavorazioni e materiali sembrano testimoniare un intenso scambio con la vicina Apollonia."
"Dimale near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthini"is sourced with Šašel Kos, Appian and Illyricum (2005) p. 406, a statement that takes in account in a very balanced way all the conclusions of modern scholars and the fact that Dimale appears always in ancient sources along with the Parthini. – Βατο ( talk) 10:06, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Dimale near or within the territory of the tribe of the Parthiniand
never explicitly stated as a settlement of the Parthiniare not mutually exclusive. Thus, they can both be included. There's also a problem with WP:OUTDATED material. Many publications don't accept submissions that have been published more than 8 or even 5 years earlier than contemporary research. But in wikipedia, some editors insist on the use of sources from the 1990s and even the 80s in the context of the interpretation of archaeological material, although there is an archaeological project about Dimal by the University of Köln, which has listed all current bibliography that would be required if anyone chose to write a paper about it.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 10:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
As I see the Rubini-Zaio paper is solely based on research (Cavalli-Sforza) which is already rejected in past RSN (Unfortunately Cavalli Sforza is way out of date. If Wikipedia has to use only out of date materials we come into conflict with NPOV because we distort our reporting of reality. etc.) [ [20]]. I new RSN might overturn the initial conclusion, but I hardly doubt if any mention to an "Illyrian-Albanian population during the first millennium BCE" can be a strong argument for inclusion in wikipedia. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Though the map about the pre Roman situattion was well established by multiple Balkan (Albanian included) editors it appears that recently a tendency needs to get rid of it without precise arguments. Needless to say that a centralised discussion is needed for this matter since the topic concerns a wide scope of articles. In the case a Dimale its painted half Greek half Illyrian. Nothing wrong on this too. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I can't comment on content, or not much, but I did just revert Khirurg because invoking JDL is no argument at all, especially when there is a discussion here (to which they have not contributed) with arguments. Khirurg, that's not to say I think the map shouldn't be in there, but you can't use that argument, certainly not without commenting here. What I can say about the map is that it is ugly and completely unclear, and that if indeed it shows places and names as they appeared over time, it's a lousy map. But that is something for editors to decide. Drmies ( talk) 19:16, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
[ [21]] I'm afraid this equals wp:IDONTLIKEIT. Perhaps the editor needs to explain why this specific one word is not good enough for addition. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:37, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree that those blind removals are unacceptable and nonconstructive. Not sure what you are trying to say, but I want to give you a kind suggestion. If you use GoogleTranslate to translate other editors' comments, then try another translation website. See what Muka, Hatzopoulos and Jaupaj say: that Greek character came from Greek influence. Only one source says it was a Greek settlement. So it can be added to the lede that the settlement had Greek influence, or a similar solution. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:44, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
There Sasel Kos is opposed by one source, here by several. If you want to make changes to the article, post them here and gain consensus before. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 23:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
"È da considerarsi del tutto superata l'ipotesi, avanzata da Hammond 1968, 14-15, che Dimalla fosse una polis di origine greca, fondata sotto Pirro con un contingente di coloni da Apollonia", you are welcome. – Βατο ( talk) 00:38, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Demetrius fortified the naturally well defended town of Dimale and secured for himself the local governments in other Illyrian cities , while he quartered 6000 of the bravest soldiers at Pharos.and
When the Roman army attacked and defeated Demetrius , the Illyrians offered little resistance , even Demetrius ' stronghold Dimale ( presentday Krotina ) , " " near , or perhaps within , the territory of the Parthini , fell in seven days. Now, can we cite bibliography only if it actually discusses something and not if it mentions it via some one word reference? (Side comment: There's no reason to recreate disputes) Thank you.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:26, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
The specific paper and especially scholar is highly respected in the international academic community. There is no way to have it simply removed. At least an RSN should decide about it. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:28, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
In the Hellenistic period (between the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC) the town experienced its climax, during a phase marked by intense urban planning, including the construction of a new city wall and the building of several stoas, a temple, and a theater, showing a significant influence of the Ancient Greek culture on the local Illyrian inhabitants.in the lead section is a balanced wording. – Βατο ( talk) 00:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
removed text:
How can this information be unrelated to this settlement? Please take a deep breath and reconsider. I propose the addition of the above text without attribution since those conclusions are not contradicted in scholarship. It's really weird that you removed everything about the city's Hellenization and onomastics. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
The very late appearance of Greek elements combined with the fact that the city does not have a Greek name and there is no tradition ascribing its foundation to Greeks, gives the impression that Dimale did not have a Greek charakter from the beginning, but was rather a center or the Parthinoi that was hellenized under the influence of Apollonia on the one had and the kingdom of Epirus on the other."is obsolete, in recent scholarship there is no doubt that the settlement was founded by Illyrians and later experienced the influence of ancient Greek culture. While the article already includes due weight content about Parthini: "[Dimale] was situated in the vicinity or within the territory of the Parthini". As for the provenance of the Greek influences, the section Dimale#Findings and organization provides detailed information. – Βατο ( talk) 02:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Per ciò che concerne la sezione dedicata alle Poleis, mi riferisco in particolare al caso delle comunità ellenizzate dei Dimallitai e dei Balaieitai, la cui analisi costituisce una sorta di appendice rispetto all’esame delle realtà locali nelle città corinzie, e in particolare di Apollonia, come peculiare esito di nuovi equilibri regionali prodottisi nel tardo III sec. a.C.I assume you can translate [ [25]] comunità ellenizzate. To sum up: Hatzopoulos conclusion isn't obsolete. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:34, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
È da considerarsi del tutto superata l’ipotesi, avanzata da Hammond 1968, 14-15, che Dimalla fosse una polis di origine greca, fondata sotto Pirro con un contingente di coloni da Apollonia; cf. infatti Hatzopoulos 1997, 145, che indica piuttosto questa città come centro dell’ethnos illirico dei Parthini, senza alcuna origine greca, ma tardivamente ellenizzato grazie all’influenza di Apollonia e del koinon degli Epiroti.