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Dialogue goes back to logos, and dialectic goes back to lexis, thus it means "through words", whereas dialogue means "through notions". In other words, in a dialogue you exchange different points of view, in order to reconcile the different aspects or relations (in a strict mathematical sense) captured, whereas in a dialectic as described by Plato in detail in "The Sophist" and "The Statesman" you analyze the relations of words to each other, like describing different special cases of a more general notion, like when you say: a "car" is either used for personal transport or for the transport of goods. In the latter case it is called a "truck". In the former case, if it is used to carry people that enter at designiated points, it is called a "bus", otherwise, if it used as a carrier service, it is called it "taxi" and if not... (Yeah, well, this is not entirely correct, but before I come to sedan etc. I just stop here, because you should already understand what we're talking about, and this kind of thing is precisely what Plato does in Sophistes and Politikos.
46.131.28.194 ( talk) 09:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
I am going to make some edits to shorten the sections on Hegel and Marx, which at present are disproportionately long, the latter of which has also been flagged for over four years as having way too many blockquotes.
I am also inclined to delete the entire Criticism section. Primarily this is because it is devoted mostly to Hegel and Marx, who are not the topic of this article, and who have their own series of articles where such criticisms are discussed. Secondarily it is because Nietzsche, Popper, and Bunge are not scholars of even Hegel or Marx. They are famous for other things entirely, and their views do not help readers understand what dialectic is.
Before removing sourced material, however, I wanted to check in here.
See for reference: WP:Criticism#Approaches to presenting criticism. I would suggest that anything that cannot be integrated into other sections of the article probably does not belong.
Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh ( talk) 15:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I am not at all convinced that Popper or Bunge understand Hegel (certainly) or Marx (probably) well enough to meaningfully contribute to our understanding of the underlying issues.But the issues are different for philosophers with different purposes. It is an important point that Popper and Bunge were not scholars of Hegel and Marx, and their criticisms are not directed so much at Hegel and Marx themselves as at some of their intellectual legacy and that of Engels and Lenin. Their criticisms are important because they represent an attempt to assess that legacy from the perspective of 20th-century scientific philosophy ( scientific realism and critical rationalism, broadly defined). If you're a Hegel scholar then you might not find that attempt to be "meaningful", but it's certainly meaningful from their perspective. Given their purposes, how well they understood Hegel or Marx isn't as relevant as you think it is. Biogeographist ( talk) 01:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
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This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
Dialogue goes back to logos, and dialectic goes back to lexis, thus it means "through words", whereas dialogue means "through notions". In other words, in a dialogue you exchange different points of view, in order to reconcile the different aspects or relations (in a strict mathematical sense) captured, whereas in a dialectic as described by Plato in detail in "The Sophist" and "The Statesman" you analyze the relations of words to each other, like describing different special cases of a more general notion, like when you say: a "car" is either used for personal transport or for the transport of goods. In the latter case it is called a "truck". In the former case, if it is used to carry people that enter at designiated points, it is called a "bus", otherwise, if it used as a carrier service, it is called it "taxi" and if not... (Yeah, well, this is not entirely correct, but before I come to sedan etc. I just stop here, because you should already understand what we're talking about, and this kind of thing is precisely what Plato does in Sophistes and Politikos.
46.131.28.194 ( talk) 09:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
I am going to make some edits to shorten the sections on Hegel and Marx, which at present are disproportionately long, the latter of which has also been flagged for over four years as having way too many blockquotes.
I am also inclined to delete the entire Criticism section. Primarily this is because it is devoted mostly to Hegel and Marx, who are not the topic of this article, and who have their own series of articles where such criticisms are discussed. Secondarily it is because Nietzsche, Popper, and Bunge are not scholars of even Hegel or Marx. They are famous for other things entirely, and their views do not help readers understand what dialectic is.
Before removing sourced material, however, I wanted to check in here.
See for reference: WP:Criticism#Approaches to presenting criticism. I would suggest that anything that cannot be integrated into other sections of the article probably does not belong.
Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh ( talk) 15:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I am not at all convinced that Popper or Bunge understand Hegel (certainly) or Marx (probably) well enough to meaningfully contribute to our understanding of the underlying issues.But the issues are different for philosophers with different purposes. It is an important point that Popper and Bunge were not scholars of Hegel and Marx, and their criticisms are not directed so much at Hegel and Marx themselves as at some of their intellectual legacy and that of Engels and Lenin. Their criticisms are important because they represent an attempt to assess that legacy from the perspective of 20th-century scientific philosophy ( scientific realism and critical rationalism, broadly defined). If you're a Hegel scholar then you might not find that attempt to be "meaningful", but it's certainly meaningful from their perspective. Given their purposes, how well they understood Hegel or Marx isn't as relevant as you think it is. Biogeographist ( talk) 01:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)