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![]() | On 24 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Dassaretae to Dexaroi. The result of the discussion was moved. |
We can't, because Dasaretes are an Illyrian atested tribe. There are no Dexari and/or Dexaroi neither. Claiming that Desareti are a greek tribe is a false statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.94.17 ( talk) 08:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
this source here, says the were illyrian.
Epirote. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupidus Maximus ( talk • contribs) 20:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
and the Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny [3], [4]
illyrian [5]
Appian, though vague in his geographical placement of both, recounted the legend of the Dassaretae as one of the original Illyrian tribes.
The Dassaretae, an Illyrian tribe, is described by Pliny [6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupidus Maximus ( talk • contribs) 20:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Primary sources said; Dassareti were an Illyrian tribe. The ancient Hellenic authors had exaggerated many times, but they generally said the truth. Dassareti and Perrhaebi were Illyrians. Piro ilir ( talk) 16:36, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
There is only one tribe called Dassaretae and this tribe is Illyrian. Read the sources: [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] and so on - Euriditi 12:46, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you. Jingiby ( talk) 12:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
... an Epirot tribe, who later settled partly in Skyros; and a place in the land of the Illyrian Chaonians in Epirus founded by him ...- p.5, Classical philology: Volume 36;Volume 36, 1941.
The town Saranda is an ancient town, first settled by the Illyrian tribe of the Chaonians, who called it Onchesmus. Cicero mentions it as a convenient harbour with a favourable prevailing wind.
While in another source George Broke in his book History of Greece: Repr. from the ... London ed: Volume 3 - page 414 states that:
... Theopompus about 340 bc reckoned fourteen distinct Epirotic nations among whom the Molossians and Chaonians were the principal. It is possible that some of these may have been semi Illyrian others semi Macedonian though all were comprised by him under the common name Epirots.
(
img)Two republican States — those of the Chaonians and the Tliesprotians — were also barbarian ; but the Ambracian Republic, ... As respects its population, the barbaric element (due to the frequent inroads of Illyrian tribes) undoubtedly ...
Other sources: [17] [18] [19]. - Euriditi 11:07, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
That's true, Chaonians aren't anywhere mentioned as Illyrians in ancient sources, instead the Dassareti were . According to the ancient Hellenic myth, Dassareti were Illyrian. It's a primary source, and neither you nor a romanticist like Hammond can do anything against it. Piro ilir ( talk) 16:46, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Those above are sources I've already presented in talk:Enchele. Pardon me but is there a problem you can't understand the above quotes or are they simply interpreted is "assumptions" as you once said about modern literature? Alexikoua ( talk) 17:16, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae...Matijašić, Ivan (2011). "Shrieking like Illyrians": Historical geography and the Greek perspective of the Illyrian world in the 5th century BC", p. 293:
Mela (2.55–56) writes that hoc mare [the Adriatic], magno recessu litorum acceptum et vaste quidem in latitudinem patens, qua penetrat tamen vastius, Illyricis usque Tergestum, cetera Gallicis Itali<ci>sque gentibus cingitur. Partheni et Dassaretae prima eius tenent, sequentia Taulantii, Encheleae [corr. Olivarius: encele V], Phaeaces. Dein sunt quos proprie Illyrios vocant, tum Piraei et Liburni et Histria. (“This sea [the Adriatic], situated in a large recess of the coast and widely open in its width, in the place where it penetrates for an extensive stretch, is surrounded until Tergeste by Illyrians and on the remaining sides by Italians and Gauls. Partheni and Dasareti hold its first part, then follow Taulantii, Enchelei, and Phaeaces; thereafter come the properly named Illyrians, the Piraei, Liburni and Histria”).The Chaonian tribe is called Dexari by Hecataeus. If this article is about the Chaonian tribe, it cannot have the name used in ancient sources to describe an Illyrian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 17:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe. Each time he uses a similarly spelled name it is in an account ofan event in Illyricum between 200 and 170 B.C. This is long before any event involving the Daesitiates.– Βατο ( talk) 17:54, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Dassaretae, Illyrian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 18:15, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...( Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011), p. 342). All we know is that the term Dassaretae has been used by Pomponius Mela to describe an Illyrian tribe, not the Chaonian tribe, see Winnifrith and Deroux I posted above. – Βατο ( talk) 19:55, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated.... The term Dassaretae is attested in Mela's works to describe an Illyrian tribe Hammond (1966):
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae.... This article should be renamed Dexari or Dexaroi, the name attested by Hecataeus to describe the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 07:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
(unindent) Enough with Pomponius Mela and other ancient sources. We are only supposed to rely on modern sources. I propose Dassaretae to refer to the ancient Greek tribe, and Dassareti/Dassaretii for the Illyrian tribe. Khirurg ( talk) 00:29, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Of these the most northerly near the coast were the 'Abantes' or 'Amantes' or 'Amantoi', since all these forms occur, and the farthest inland the Dassaretae, known to Hecataeus as the 'Dexaroi, a tribe of the Chaonians, next to the Encheleae' (FGrH i F Io3; and for the Encheleae see Strabo 326).40 The distinction between Illyrians and Dassaretii is seen also in Livy 42. 36. 9 (following Polybius), 'ad occupanda Dassaretiorum et Illyriorum castella'.
To sum up: The Greek tribe is primarily known as Dassaretae. There are also a couple of maps in this paper which you personally don't like (as you displayed in Enchele). Alexikoua ( talk) 07:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Calthinus, I am adding here some quotes from Cabanes and Fox, you can evaluate what to do next.
A partir de la Haute Macédoine, il faut maintenant chercher à suivre la zone de contact avec les Illyriens, vers la fin du Ve siècle, même si la documentation est souvent d’une époque plus tardive... sont établies sur le versant oriental de la chaîne du Pinde, comme les Tymphaioi, les Orestes, ce sont les Dassarètes qui sont le premier ethnos illyrien qui avoisine avec les Orestes...l’entrée en Illyrie étant défendue au IVe siècle par la forteresse de Pélion [From Upper Macedonia, we must now try to follow the zone of contact with the Illyrians, towards the end of the 5th century, even if the documentation is often from a later period...on the eastern slope of the Pindus chain, like the Tymphaioi, the Orestes, those are the Dassaretes who are the first Illyrian ethnos who neighbor with the Orestes...the entry into Illyria being defended in the 4th century by the fortress of Pelion...]
Entre Parthins et Atintanes, vers l’Est s’étend le pays des Dassaretes, dont l’étendue paraît considérable, puisqu’il comprend toute la région comprise entre l’Osum et le Devoll, dont la réunion forme l’Apsus (l’actuel Seman), le plateau de Korça verrouillé par la forteresse de Pélion et, vers le Nord la Dassarétide s’étend jusqu’au lac l’Ohrid (121). C’est certainement une zone centrale de l’Illyrie méridionale, celle qui est aussi la plus directement en contact avec les régions de Haute-Macédoine, notamment avec l’Orestide et la Lyncestide. Selon Polybe, (122), en dehors de Pélion, les Dassarètes possèdent, au début du IIe siècle avant J.-C., plusieurs villes, Antipatreia... [Between Parthins and Atintanes, towards the east extends the country of the Dassaretes, the extent of which seems considerable, since it includes the entire region between Osum and Devoll, whose union forms the Apsus (the Seman), the plateau of Korça locked by the fortress of Pelion and, towards the North the Dassaretis extends to Lake Ohrid (121). It is certainly a central area of southern Illyria, that which is also the most directly in contact with the regions of Upper Macedonia, in particular with the Orestide and the Lyncestide. According to Polybius, (122), apart from Pelion, the Dassaretes owned, at the beginning of the 2nd century BC, several cities, Antipatreia...]
Dans les opérations devant Pélion, en 335, le roi Kleitos, fils de Bardylis, le Dassarète, commande son armée et semble traiter d’égal à égal avec le roi des Taulantins, Glaukias. [In operations before Pelion, in 335, King Kleitos, son of Bardylis, the Dassaretian, commanded his army and seemed to be on an equal footing with the king of the Taulantins, Glaukias]
Here is Cabanes' report about Hatzopoulos suggestion of Bardylis as a Dassaretian king and not a Dardanian one:
M. Hatzopoulos...propose avec raison semble-t-il, de voir dans Bardylis un roi, non pas des Dardaniens comme le voulait Hammond, mais plutôt des Dassarètes, ce qui met son domaine au contact direct avec la Lyncestide et l’Orestide, et, lorsque ces régions sont plus étroitement unies au royaume argéade, avec la Macédoine elle-même (11). [Mr. Hatzopoulos ... seems to be rightly proposing to see in Bardylis a king, not of the Dardanians as Hammond wanted, but rather of the Dassaretes, which puts his domain in direct contact with Lyncestide and the Orestide...]
More recently Robin Lane Fox Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011) analyzed the views of Hammond, Hatzopoulos, Cabanes and Walbank stating:
– Βατο ( talk) 19:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...
Βατο You complain about Hammond being outdated, yet you don't seem to have that concern at all about Cabanes...from 1988. Khirurg ( talk) 20:31, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Fortunately I have full access to this source. The specific quote concerns the Enchelae and not the Dassaretae. It can be easily confirmed from the source:
The Engelanes / Encheleis, the oldest attested tribe in north-western ancient Macedonia, dwelled near the present-day Ohrid. In the nearly same territorial span - from the Ohrid region in the south, up to Polog in the north - but much later, beginning from the second century BC, our extant ancient sources mention the Dassaretae. The question of their ethnic stock has often absorbed fellow scholars, resulting in several differing theories on their ethnicity: thus, there are theories advocating Illyrian origin4, a Macedonian3, a "later-Illyrised autochthonous tribe"b, an Epirote7, or a Brygian tribe8; some scholars tend to see a tribe of "later-Illyrised Epirote" origin9, others speak of "profoundly Illyrised Boeotian settlers"10, and so forth. The list appears to be endless.
Actually this is a good addition for the Enchelae: and indeed they were possibly considered Boetian settlers due to the myth of Cadmus. Also, interesting appears the fact that they were considered Illyrian exclusively by Albanian and outdated (until early 20th century) scholars (see footnote). Alexikoua ( talk) 08:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
The Engelanes / Encheleis, the oldest attested tribe in north-western ancient Macedonia, dwelled near the present-day Ohrid. In the nearly same territorial span - from the Ohrid region in the south, up to Polog in the north - but much later, beginning from the second century BC, our extant ancient sources mention the Dassaretae. The question of their ethnic stock has often absorbed fellow scholars, resulting in several differing theories on their ethnicity: thus, there are theories advocating Illyrian origin, a Macedonian, a "later-Illyrised autochthonous tribe", an Epirote, or a Brygian tribe; some scholars tend to see a tribe of "later-Illyrised Epirote" origin, others speak of "profoundly Illyrised Boeotian settlers", and so forth. The list appears to be endless. Until the 1950s, the interpretation advocating the Illyrian origin of the Encheleis and the Dassaretai gained the widest acceptance; this interpretation stood well until scholars, faced with many allegedly impenetrable problems of a similar kind, began to pay doser attention to the epigraphic and archaeological evidence. Owing much to the authority of F. Papazoglou, Yugoslav scholars have almost unanimously opted for the Illyrian origin of the Dassaretai, the tribe that had inherited the territory of the Engelanes / Encheleis centuries later.– Βατο ( talk) 09:09, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
4 It seems superfluous to remark that this position is, almost without exception, advocated by Albanian scholars, as well as various schol- ars - especially linguists - from the nineteenth and early twentieth century. On older works, see A. Mayer, Die Sprache der alten Illyrier I, Wien 1957, p. 135, s.v. Encheieai, p. 110,. s.v. Dassaretae; on the kingdom of the Encheleis, see P. Cabanes, Les Illyriens de Bardyllis à Genthios, 1V-II siècle avant J.-C., Paris 1988, 50. From contemporary scholarship advocating Illyrian origin of the Engelanes, see N. G. L. Hammond, A history of Macedonia I, Oxford 1972, 422.
However, the following paragraph (the problems facing a possible Illyrian origin of Dassaretae), well this is relevant. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
The only thing that we know of the Chaonian Dexari is this single mention in historical sources, from Stephanus of Byzantium (Ethnica) who cites Hecataeus of Miletus: Δέξαροι, ἔθνος Χαόνων, τοῖς Ἐγχελέαις προσεχεῖς, Ἑκαταῖος Εὐρώπῃ. ὑπὸ Ἄμυρον ὄρος οἰκοῦν.
Stephanus clearly distinguishes the Chaonian Dexari from the Illyrian Dassareti, listing also the Dassareti that were described by Polybius as a completely different tribe: Δασσαρῆται, ἔθνος Ἰλλυρίας, Πολύβιος ὀγδόῳ. καὶ τὸ θηλυκὸν Δασσαρῆτις. λέγονται καὶ Δασσαρηνοί καὶ Δασσαρήτιοι καὶ Δασσαρητῖνος.
The content of this article is based on the speculative equation of the Chaonian Dexari with the Illyrian Dassareti. The uncertain hypothetical link should be presented as such, not as a historical fact. –
Βατο (
talk)
13:33, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
"Najstariji podaci o Enhelejcima su sačuvani upravo u svjedočanstvu Hekateja, što se očuvalo u djelu Stefana Bizantinca, o Deksarima, haonskom narodu: „Deksari, haonski narod, susjedi Enhelejaca, kako piše Hekatej u opisu Evrope. Stanuje pod gorom Amirom“. Da li su Deksari u stvari Dasareti i da li je gora Amir Tomor u Dasaretidi, o čemu je govorio R. Katičić i danas predstavlja značajno i nedovoljno odgovoreno pitanje. Najviše što se može pretpostaviti u vezi područja rasprostiranja sa određenim stepenom sigurnosti jest mogućnost da su nosioci ohridske kulture iz Trebeništa bili Enhelejci." [The oldest information about the Enchelei is preserved in the testimony of Hecataeus, which is preserved in the work of Stephanus of Byzantium, about the Dexari, a Chaonian tribe: "Dexari, a Chaonian tribe, they live under Mount Amyron". Whether the Dexari are in fact Dassareti and whether Mount Amyron Tomor is in Dassaretia, of which R. Katičić spoke about, still represents a significant and insufficiently answered question. The most that can be assumed about the area of distribution, with some degree of certainty, is the possibility that the bearers of the Ohrid culture from Trebenište were Enchelei.]Furthermore, the Dassareti are considered by current scholars as the tribe of the first attested Illyrian king: Bardylis. You should understand that Wikipedia articles can't present modern uncertain hypotheses as historical facts. – Βατο ( talk) 16:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
If you missed it, the rilevant part to this discussion is: Whether the Dexari are in fact Dassareti still represents a significant and insufficiently answered question. Who is out of topic? You are now commenting about the WP:TALKOFFTOPIC origins of the Enchele and the equation of their tribal name with that of the Illyrian Dassareti by Strabo. Stay on topic, please. The article should present historical facts as such and modern conjectures as such, the current version wrongly leads readers to believe that Dexari existed in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, while they disappeared after Hecataeus (6th century BC) and the attested facts of the Roman period that you included actually concern the Illyrian Dassareti, including the title "Dassaretae". – Βατο ( talk) 10:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
the ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to DassaretaeThe stem he is talking about is Illyrian, you can see it here Dassaretii#Etymology. Although the two names stem from the same root, there is not certainity about the equation of the tribes Dexari with Dassareti, as stated by Juzbašić (2010). They lived in completely different periods, and most probably in different places (about the Dexari we only know that they lived under Mount Amyron). The link is a modern hypothesis proposed by some older sources, which still remains unverified. – Βατο ( talk) 10:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The name 'Dexaroi' is obviously his form of 'Dassaretai, after whom the area was called Dassaretis., please? – Βατο ( talk) 11:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The Dassaretae were an independent community though they were initially part of the Chaonian stateis Hammond's speculation. About Krahe, you are free to remove his suggestions in other articles if they contrast with more recent sources. The 1953 source that provides the etymology "Mountain of Zeus" trying to relate Dassaretai with Dios oros-oreitai, should be removed as per WP:AGEMATTERS, and because it goes against the relation of the tribal names Dexar- and Dessar-/Dassar-, it's also offtopic for that reason. – Βατο ( talk) 12:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
is a well known academic on the fieldis not a good reason for the inclusion of a 1953 publication (70 years old) in Wikipedia article, on the contrary WP:AGEMATTERS is a good reason for removal of that outdated source. – Βατο ( talk) 13:09, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Dassaretae initially recorded as Dexari were the northernmost subtribe (Greek: έθνος ethnos) of the Chaonians, based on the testimony of the ancient Greek geographer Hecataeus of Miletusis WP:POV because this hypothesis is not accepted by many scholars as a fact, hence it should be presented as such;
He describes them as the most northern tribe of the Chaonians, as a Greek-speaking peopleis WP:OR and unreliable, because Hecataeus, cited by Stephanus, does not provide that description;
since the x (ξ) is the phonetic equivalent of ss (σσ) in ancient Greek literature.is WP:OR;
The name Dexari retains more archaic features compared to Dassaretae in Greek spellingis WP:OR;
which is accepted by the modern scholars Hammond, Wilkes and R.J. Weber; Weber support something else, as included in the neutral version;
It appears that the chief magistrate of the Dassaretae bore the title "Strategos", a title typically given to the chief magistrates of northern Greek tribes during Roman antiquity.[14] As for their administrative structure an inscription of the Dassaretae epigrammatically lists the main organs of their state Δασσαρητίων άρχοντες, βουλή και δήμος (The archons, the boule and the demos of the Dassaretae).[15]is information that concerns the Illyrian Dassareti, Hatzopoulos does not mention the Chaonian tribe. He is one of the first scholars who supported Illyrian king Bardylis' affiliation with Dassareti;
It has been also argued that a similar spelling is shared in the names of two Illyrian tribes (Dassaretae/-ii and Dassarensis)., Weber does not suggest it, he states that two Illyrian tribes existed: Dassaretae (with all the other spellings) and Daesitiates.
Toynbee has argued that the mention of the Chaonian Dexaroi is evidence that the Chaones had been Illyrian-speakers originally, since the name 'Dexaroi' appears to be a variant of the name Dassaretioi of an Illyrian peopleWhy? About the primary sources, I did not use them, I used secondary reliable sources that provide information and analyses about the primary sources. – Βατο ( talk) 12:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
{{
Synthesis}}
. That section should be removed because it is unrelated to this article. –
Βατο (
talk)
13:45, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Various Illyrian tribes were located in the area north of the Dassaretae, in the region north of the mines of Damastion.Šašel Kos states "mines of Damastum in the region of the Dassaretes", not commenting on the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 18:21, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
If the equation between Dexari and Dassaratae is a subject of discussion, shouldn't the article be named "Dexari" in order to avoid WP:UNDUE weight to one narrative? @ Βατο: @ Alexikoua: -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
In Southern Albania the only Epirote tribes ... In an independent fragment Hecataeus mentions the Dexari...
Among Illyrian tribes ... the Dassaretae in Roman times ... Dassaretae, Illyrian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 11:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Relying on wp:PRIMARY is the epitomy of POV [ [25]]. There are plenty of secondary sourrces on the subject, follow wp:RS. No wonder even S. Kos does not being being that way:
Version by Bato | Quote cited by |
---|---|
The name "Dexari" is mentioned only once in literature of antiquity... | The Dexari, a Chaonian people neighbouring upon the Enchelei, as is stated by Hecataeus in his book about Europe... |
It is quite obvious that the proposed version falls clearly into POV even in the way it begins it deal with the subject. What's also interesting is that have archeological evidence that the Kuci zi Tumulus II belonged to Dexari rulers. As such there is also clear archaeological evidence on this. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
"The earliest preserved data come from Hecataeus of Miletus (the end of the 6th century B.C.), and were preserved by Stephanus of Byzantium in his toponoma-stic lexicon Ethnica from the 6th century A.D., under the heading Dexari (FGrHist 1 F 103): The Dexari, a Chaonian people neighbouring upon the Enchelei, as is stated by Hecataeus in his book about Europe, who lived under Mt. Amyrus (Δέξαροι, ἔθνος Χαόνων, τοῖς Ἐγχελέαις προσεχεῖς, Ἑκαταῖος Εὐρώπῃ. ὑπὸ Ἄμυρον ὄρος οἰκοῦν.). The Dexari and the Amyrus mountain are mentioned solely in this passage."Don't lose your credibility as an established editor with those false comments. We are WP:Here to build an encyclopedia. Furthermore, you undestand that you restored a version with much WP:OR, WP:CHERRYPICKING of sources like Weber, and WP:SYNTH of information to add a narrative unsupported by sources. – Βατο ( talk) 10:33, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
I will add those quotes. About Weber, you should read all the source and the content relevant to this topic: Weber 1989 :
"The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe (57). Each time he uses a similarly spelled name it is in an account of an event in Illyricum between 200 and 170 B.C. ...Strabo mentioned the Dassaretae among the tribes contacted along the route of the Drin river. ... Pliny, while not as obvious in indicating his sources , located the Dasaretae east of the Albanian plain and north of Epirus. ... Appian, though vague in his geographical placement of both, recounted the legend of the Dassaretae as one of the original Illyrian tribes."
"Like the Taulantii the Dassaretae first appear in a fragment of Hecataeus and are known throughout a long tradition that survived to Livy's day and beyond. According to Stephanus of Byzantium, Hecataeus wrote of the Δεξάροι, Έθνος Ξαόνων, who live υπό Άμυρον όρος. The ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to Dassaretae... Hecataeus placed Mt. Amuron between the Encheleans, who lived around Lake Lychnidus, and Dodona. The area is virtually the same territory assigned to the Dassaretae by Pliny, H.N. 4.1.3. He located the Dassaretae along the northern boundary of Epirus. The best documentation of the Dassaretae and their homeland comes from the period of the Roman conquest, the years between the first Roman incursion into Illyricum in 228 B.C. and the settlement of 167 B.C. Sources dealing with this period derive chiefly from Polybius, who first refers to the Dassaretae in his account of the split between the Illyrian dynast Scerdilaidas and Philip V of Macedonia in 217 B.C. ...It is to the west of the area in which Livy, drawing on Polybius, places the Dassaretae in 199 B.C.,...through the land of the Dassaretae directly to Lyncus, the western section of Macedonia."
"As part of his description of the Dardanian location, Strabo mentions the Dassaretae. The Dardanians and the Dassaretae, along with other peoples, are situated inland along the path of the Drilo River, the modern Drin."
Hatzopoulos provides information about "Dassaretae", who are attested in epigraphic material from Lychnidus, not this specific tribe. He is the scholars who has shown convincingly that Bardylis' dynasty was Dassaretan. You can't use every source that mention the tribal name "Dassaretae" and add it here even if it does not clearly concern the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 19:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe. – Βατο ( talk) 21:09, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
On Dassaretis, see Papazoglou, Cités 224-30., which is this source: Papazoglu, Fanula (1988). Les villes de Macédoine à l'époque romaine (in French). Greece: Ecole française d'Athènes. ISBN 9782869580145. It is one of the most detailed about the Illyrian region of Dassaretis and the Illyrian tribe of Dassaretes (this info, for instance:
"Sur la frontière occidentale de la Macédonie, les grandes tribus illyriennes des Dassarètes et des Pénestes, situées entre les royaumes de Macédonie et d'Illyrie, avaient souvent changé de maître.") Hatzopoulos, and other sources that are not directly commenting on the Chaonian tribe, can't be used for this article. – Βατο ( talk) 22:23, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
it seems that the chief magistrate of the Dassaretans was also a strategosdoes not cite Hammond, you can't imply it with your original research interpretations of the sources, do you understand it? – Βατο ( talk) 00:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Unable to accept Hammond's duality, Hatzopoulos presumes an error on the part of Polyaenus (based on Hieronymus of Cardia) who would have been ignorant of local geography. Along with the Chaones, the Atintanes will have been the most northerly of the Epirote communities. Beyond these but yet south and west of the real Illyrian Dassaretae, Parthini and Taulantii was a mixed zone, generally reckoned as a part of Illyria but culturally an extension of Greek-speaking Epirus.This is what Hatzopoulos supports, directly commented by a reliable source, not by our personal thoughts. – Βατο ( talk) 00:39, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
References
Chanoes, name of a tribel state... in north Epirus which extented from the Dexari, probably near Berat
Dassaretae, whose country "Dassaretis" included the Malik-Koritsa plain. It was then the rulers of the Dexari, who were buried at Kuci zi in Tumulus II, and the Dexari themselves were the most northerly of the Chaonian group of tribes,
They were neighbours of Greek-speaking tribes, grouped under the common name Chaones, of whom the most northerly, the Dassaretae, extended into the lakeland south of Lake Ochrid.; Winnifrith, Tom (2002). Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania. Springer. p. 35. ISBN 9781349220502.
the Bylliones, reaching the north bank of the Aous. They were neighbors of Greek-speaking tribes, grouped under the common name Chaones, of whom the most northerly, the Dassaretae, extended into the lakeland south of Lake Ochrid. We owe our knowledge to the earliest Greek geographer, Hecataeus...
Wilkes98
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Weber
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Unable to accept Hammond's duality, Hatzopoulos presumes an error on the part of Polyaenus (based on Hieronymus of Cardia) who would have been ignorant of local geography. Along with the Chaones, the Atintanes will have been the most northerly of the Epirote communities. Beyond these but yet south and west of the real Illyrian Dassaretae, Parthini and Taulantii was a mixed zone, generally reckoned as a part of Illyria but culturally an extension of Greek-speaking Epirus.There are several other sources about Hatzopoulos' view on the specific subject. He considers the first attested Illyrian dynasty (Bardylis' one) as Dassaretan. he can't be included in this article, which concerns the Chaonian tribe. Also Morton (2017) (wrongly presented in this article as "Norton"), provides information about the Dassaretii, it is not about the Chaonian tribe. Also the part about Damastion sourced with Šašel Kos should be removed because Damastion is attested only in Strabo, as in relation to Illyrian tribes, in particular the Sessarethii, interpreted by modern scholars as Dessaretii. – Βατο ( talk) 12:07, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates.I am not interested in your thoughts because the information is well sourced. – Βατο ( talk) 12:54, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe... Like the Taulantii the Dassaretae first appear in a fragment of Hecataeus and are known throughout a long tradition that survived to Livy's day and beyond. According to Stephanus of Byzantium, Hecataeus wrote of the Δεξάροι, Έθνος Ξαόνων, who live υπό Άμυρον όρος. The ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to Dassaretae."Yur opinions about scholar's statements are not needed. The information should be included as provided by the scholar. You removed from the article: "Weber states that Dassaretae is an Illyrian name, and he equates the Dexari mentioned by Hecataeus with all the forms Dassaret- mentioned in Roman times." You also removed Winnifrith (2002) and Kunstmann & Thiergen without prividing an explanation, it is not constructive. – Βατο ( talk) 13:13, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
They are described as the northernmost subtribe ( Greek: έθνος ethnos) of the Chaonians, as stated by modern scholars J. Wilkes, R.J. Weber and N.G.L. Hammond.is wrong. The Dexari were part of the Chaonian state - it's stated in Hecataeus, it's not a modern theory. I have added that they are described
as part of the Chaonian tribal state(Hornblower) in the context of the one source which mentions the Dexari in antiquity. The modern theory is about the connection between Dexari and Dassaratae. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Illyrian name and not Illyrian tribe, it is content as per the source: Weber 1989, pp. 81, 83–84: "The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe... Like the Taulantii the Dassaretae first appear in a fragment of Hecataeus and are known throughout a long tradition that survived to Livy's day and beyond. According to Stephanus of Byzantium, Hecataeus wrote of the Δεξάροι, Έθνος Ξαόνων, who live υπό Άμυρον όρος. The ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to Dassaretae." . – Βατο ( talk) 18:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The content from Hatzopoulos is not directly related to the topic of this article, Hatzopoulos supports other theories:
We are not going to include all the information from sources that mention Dassaret- into an article about a Chaonian tribe that was attested as Dexari. – Βατο ( talk) 20:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
(p.95) The existence of a Kellion near Korytsa in Dassaretis, a region probably colonised under the reign of Philip II, is an indication that the name of the homonymous Eordaian community, the origin of which goes back to the Early Iron Age, had remained unchanged at least since the Late Classical period>Hammond, "Frontier" 213-14.
.
Hammond1 equates Beue, on the border between Lynkos and Dassaretis, with Euia, which is mentioned by Ptolemy, along with Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassare-tans.2 > Hammond, Macedonia I 64
Alexikoua (
talk)
23:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Hatzopoulos refers to this tribe.citation needed. – Βατο ( talk) 11:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
References
(p.95) The existence of a Kellion near Korytsa in Dassaretis, a region probably colonised under the reign of Philip II, is an indication that the name of the homonymous Eordaian community, the origin of which goes back to the Early Iron Age, had remained unchanged at least since the Late Classical period>Hammond, "Frontier" 213-14..
Hammond1 equates Beue, on the border between Lynkos and Dassaretis, with Euia, which is mentioned by Ptolemy, along with Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassare-tans.2 > Hammond, Macedonia I 64
Hatzopoulos refers to this tribe.Can you provide another quote about it? I provided specific quotes above, which refer directly to the views of Hatzopoulos. And they contrast with your WP:OR claims. – Βατο ( talk) 12:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
This piece of information gives credibility to Strabo, who notes that the Encheleis / Engelanes were also called Dassaretae - a widely accepted emendation of the term Sessarethii, which actually stood in the text. Having this in mind, some scholars identify the Dexari with the Dassaretai; this is dismissed by R. Katičić, on the grounds that the Chaonian tribes are never listed among the Illyrian tribes.41 41 R. Katičić, "Encheleer", p. 8. This identification was dismissed as early as G. Zippel., Die romische Herrschaft in Illyrien bis auf Augustus, Leipzig 1877, p. 13.". – Βατο ( talk) 15:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Κατά την απόψη του Katičić, πρέπει να ληφθεί υπόψη το γεγονός ότι στις γραμματειακές πηγές μετά τον Εκαταίο οι Δασσαρέτες θεωρούνται ιλλυρικό φύλο, ενώ οι Χάονες ποτέ δεν σχετίζονται με τους Ιλλυριούς. Επομένως, η άποψη του Hammond, σύμφωνα με την οποία οι Δεξάροι ταυτίζονται με τους Δασσαρέτες, δεν μπορεί να γίνει πλήρως δεκτή, όμως ούτε μπορεί να απορριφθεί, λόγω έλλειψης πληροφοριών.86 Ακολουθώντας τη γνώμη του Διόδωρου Σικελιώτη,87 οι αρχαίοι συγγραφείς88 θεωρούσαν τους Δασσαρέτες ιλλυρικό φύλο μαζί με πολλά άλλα φύλα (τους Εγχέλεις, τους Ταουλέντες, τους Πενέστες, κλπ.). Ωστόσο, ο Διόδωρος δεν θεωρείται αξιόπιστη πήγε καθώς το έργο του αποτελεί διάφορων ιστορικών πηγών. Κατά την σύγχρονη επικρατούσα άποψη, οι Δασσαρέτες και τα άλλά προαναφερθέντα φύλα ανήκαν στον κύκλο τον βόρειο-ηπειρωτικών φύλων, τα οποία σταδιακά κατέλαβαν την βόρειες περιοχές, συμπεριλαμβανομένης της Δασσαρέτιδος.89 Αντίθετα, η Proeva θεωρεί τόσο τους Δασσαρέτες όσο και τους Εγχελείς μακεδονικά φύλα, βάσει ανθρωπονομίας η οποία έδειξε ότι ένας ορισμένος αριθμός τα οποία παλαιά θεωρούνταν ιλλυρικά έχει τα παράλληλά του στην Μικρά Ασία, γεγονός που υποδεικνύει ότι τα συγκεκριμέντα ονόματα πρέπει να θεωρηθούν βρυγικά.90 Η περιοχή της Δασσαρέτιδος εκτεινόταν δυτικά τον δύο περιοχών της Άνω Μακεδονίας, της Ορεστίδος και της Λυγκηστίδος, επομένως θεωρούνταν παραμεθορια περιοχή. Από της πηγές φαίνεται σαφώς ότι η περιοχή της Λυγκηστιδος συνόρευε με την περιοχή της Δασσαρέτιδος,91 όμως τίθεται το ερώτημα από πού ακριβώς περνούσε η συνοριακή γραμμή η οποία διαχώριζε τη Μακεδονία από την Ιλλυρία. Κατά την απόψε της Grozdanova, παρόλο που στα τελευταία χρόνια οι ερευνητές προσπαθούν να ορίσουν τα συνορεύει της Ορεστίδος στην πεδιάδα του Πέσεν, η μεθοριακή γραμμή μεταξύ της Λυγκηστίδος και της Δασσαρέτιδος θα έπρεπε να περνούσε κάπου βόρεια της λίμνες της Μεγάλες Πρέσπας.92
89 I. Miculčić, ό. π. Αντίθετα, η Papazoglu "Les Villes (1988), σσ. 227-8, αποδέχεται την θεωρία σύμφωνα με την οποία οι Δασσαρέτες ήταν ένα ιλλυρικό φύλο το οποίο βρισκόταν στο εθνικό και πολιτιστικό όριο ανμεσα της Ιλλυρίας και της Μακεδονίας.Can you translate the citation 89 please? I don't understand which one is the Αντίθετα. Also, who are the "
τα άλλά προαναφερθέντα φύλα"? The views of a scholar which contrast with those of other scholars can't be considered as the "dominant view". – Βατο ( talk) 16:29, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Κατά την σύγχρονη επικρατούσα άποψη, οι Δασαρέτες και τα άλλα προαναφερθέντα φύλα ανήκαν στον κύκλο των βορειο-ηπειρωτικών φύλων, τα οποία σταδιακά κατέλαβαν τις βόρειες περιοχές, συμπεριλαμβανομένης της Δασσαρήτιδος
So for an unknown reason you feel that this needs to be hidden. You need to stop this disruptive wp:IDHT pattern. Why you also remove Proeva?
Alexikoua (
talk)
16:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Behind the coast Illyrians bordered the Chaones, the Epirote people of whom the Dexari or Dassaretae were the most northerly and bordered the Illyrian Enchelei, the 'eel-men', whose name points to a location near Lake Ohrid...likely to have been part of the Taulantii until they first appear as Roman allies late in the third century BC.8 8 Hammond 1966, 1967b, 606-7.and who considered in that book Bardylis as a Dardanian ruler like Hammond, a speculation already dismissed 30 years ago. In current scholarship the first attested Illyrian king is considered Dassaretan. Wikipedia should present updated information generally accepted in scholarship, not outdated hypotheses that contrast with recent publications. – Βατο ( talk) 11:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Thus far the available inscriptional evidence from the region reveals a majority of Greek onomastics with a few Illyrian as well as possible Phrygian ones.Hatzopoulos does not support it: Hatzopoulos 1997, p. 144: "The fragmentarity and corruption of the manuscript tradition of the available sources makes it impossible to clarify the relations between the Dassaretioi and the Encheleis. Study of the peronsal names of these regions might help to resolve the matter. Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek, and indded Macedonian, names with few Illyrian ones, especially in the south, and also with a few other, probably Phyrgian names they do not permit the drawing of any clear conclusion." Come on, you are an experienced editor, do not add original research into articles. – Βατο ( talk) 17:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Study of the personal names of these regions *Dassaretae and Enchelae) might help to resolve the matter. Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek: the available personals names in the area display a clear Greek majority. An experienced editor can understand that this is perfectly backed by RS. Off course additional text can be added but that isn't a reason for a disruptive full removal. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexi, please, stop disruptive inclusion of WP:OR, the source does not state "inscriptional evidence from the region of the Dassaretae and the Enchelae", but "Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek, and indeed Macedonian, names with few Illyrian ones, especially in the south, and also with a few other, probably Phyrgian names they do not permit the drawing of any clear conclusion." Furthermore, the source is talking about the Illyrian Dassaretioi. – Βατο ( talk) 20:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
The phenomenon of the intermingling of Greek and non-Greek elements, with the latter on occasion not being Illyrian but belonging to earlier population strata, is even more pronounced in the regions assigned by Strabo to the Illyrian ethne of the Bryges, Encheleis and Dassaretioi.Now start with constructive editing searching sources that actually describe clearly the Chaonian tribe and not the Illyrian one. – Βατο ( talk) 21:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
"Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here.[i] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article."Interpreting the sources with your original research should be avoided because it does not improve Wikipedia. – Βατο ( talk) 14:05, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-etre bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien.Hatzopoulos provides information about the Illyrian Dassaretans (Δασσαρητίων, Dassaretioi or Dassaretai), it should be removed from this article, which is about the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 00:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretansor
Lychnidos, city of Dassaretis, and that:
On Dassaretis, see Papazoglou, Cité. Why did you include that source into this article? It does not provide information about the Chaonian tribe. The article should include only information that is explicitly about the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 11:52, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans. cited> Hammond, Macedonia I 64. Yet again wp:IDHT. Lychnidus was located near the Epirote-Illyrian border, see S. Kos. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:43, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans. cited> Hammond, Macedonia I 64." is wrong, you are disrupting Wikipedia with WP:OR and addition of WP:SYNTH material. Hatzopoulos (1996) cites Ptolemy, Macedonian Institutions Under the Kings, p. 100: "Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans.2 2 . Ptol. 3.12.29". You can't use a source to suppose that a scholar support the hypotheses of another scholar if not explicitly stated by that source. The word "Chaon-" never appears in Hatzopoulos (1996), how can it be presumed that this scholar is referring to the tribe of this article? The current version of this article is a fork of Dassareti, instead of fixing it you keep adding other unrelated information to push a WP:FRINGE narrative unsupported by the sources you are using. – Βατο ( talk) 18:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
On the other hand the plain of Malik-Korce-Poloske, which formed part of the territory of the Dassaretii, was probably autonomous and not dependent upon Macedon. In the geographical terminology of the period it was a part of Illyris. It is possible that the single-wall fortifications above Zvezde, on Mt Trajan and above Tren were built by the Dassaretii at this time, as a measure of defence against the Macedonians.. In that paper he talks about the Dassaretii without linking them with the Chaonian tribe, but I avoided adding info from it to the article Dassaretii because I know Hammond's view, who considers the tribe a Chaonian one equating them with the Dexari. The same here with Hatzopoulos, he can't be included because he considers them always as related to the Illyrians. – Βατο ( talk) 18:58, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
This article should be named Dexari. The Chaonian tribe Dexari is mentioned solely by Stephanus of Byzantium citing Hecataeus, but Stephanus also mentions the Illyrian tribe Dessaretae citing Polybius, and clearly distinguishes those two tribes. Some older modern publications considered a possible equation of the two tribes, but in recent scholarship they are mostly considered distinct. The current name of this article (Dassaretae) is based on an old conjecture which still remains unproven, for this reason the article should be moved to the historically attested name. – Βατο ( talk) 12:13, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
and the Dassaretae possibly the same as the Dexari. The historically attested name of this tribe is Dexari, the other one is a conjectural relation unaccepted by recent scholars like Eichner (2004) and Campbell (2009), who distinguish the Dexari and Dassaretae, hence it is enough to make the title of this article completely inappropriate. Strong arguments should be provided to keep the current name of the article, since it contrasts recent realiable sources. – Βατο ( talk) 21:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
In spite of these difficulties Balkan and Western historians have produced maps recording a number of Illyrian tribes, and these show a good deal of uniformity. Balkan historians have tended to err in stretching Illyrian power too far, an inconvenience when we are faced with a tribe with a long name living in a small area, or vice versa. My own map is heavily dependent upon the work of others, but requires some explanation. South of the Shkumbin, and thus not in our area, we have Bylliones, appropriately near Byllis, and the Dassaretae near Korcë. These tribes bordered on people of Epirotic origin and dubious ethnicity, the Chaonians and Molossians, and the Dassaretae, possibly the same as the Dexari.who reports the Illyrian tribes south of Shkumbin - Bylliones and Dassaretae. Whether or not the Roman times Dassaret- are the same as the Chaonian Dexar- is a matter of dispute among modern scholars, and this article is about the Chaonian tribe. The current name of the article contrasts several reliable sources, violating WP:NOPOV. I fail to see a reason why hypothetical name Dassaretae should be considered more relevant as a title for the Wikipedia article about an ancient tribe that is surely attested as Dexari, can you provide one? – Βατο ( talk) 21:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I replaced old hypothetical reconstructions with new scholarship which criticize them. Also the history section should be updated because this new source: Vujčić, Nemanja (2021). "The City of Pelion and the Illyrian War of Alexander". Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies. 61. rejects many hypotheses by Hammond. Many old reconstructions, which are now presented in the article as facts, are now rejected in current scholarship. – Βατο ( talk) 17:14, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm afraid that's not productive editting & you need to provide at least a decent explanation for this massive removal of valid information. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
"In spite of these dificulties Balkan and Western historians have produced maps recording a number of Illyrian tribes, and these show a good deal of uniformity. Balkan historians have tended to err in stretching Illyrian power too far, an inconvenience when we are faced with a tribe with a long name living in a small area, or vice versa. My own map is heavily dependent upon the work of others, but requires some explanation. South of the Shkumbin, and thus not in our area, we have Bylliones, appropriately near Byllis, and the Dassaretae near Korcë. These tribes bordered on people of Epirotic origin and dubious ethnicity, the Chaonians and Molossians, and the Dassaretae possibly the same as the Dexari."
South of the Shkumbin, and thus not in our area, we have Bylliones, appropriately near Byllis, and the Dassaretae near Korcë. These tribes bordered on people of Epirotic origin and dubious ethnicity. – Βατο ( talk) 16:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
In Southern Albania the only Epirote tribes named by him apart from the Chaonians are the Athamanes, living in the middle course of the Vjoses river and associated with Amantia. In an independent fragment Hecataeus mentions the Dexari living around Korce. Hecataeus does not. That information can't be included as it is false. – Βατο ( talk) 16:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
According to Hammond, the allegedly destitute Dassaretis could not feed an army of this size, while Kosovo could.19 There are problems with this reasoning. First, we do not actually know the boundaries of Bardylis and Cleitus’ kingdom—it could have included other regions besides Dassaretis. But even the claim that this fairly spacious and productive country could not support an army of around ten thousand men during a summer campaign is dubious, and Hammond himself contradicts it in his other works..
"...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien.– Βατο ( talk) 22:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Euia, which is mentioned by Ptolemy, along with Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans.There is no mention of the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 06:40, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
It's far too obvious that this information concerns the DassaretaeNo, it's your WP:SYNTHESIS]. And don't restore conjectures in WP:WIKIVOICE. You must avoid that kind of editing. – Βατο ( talk) 20:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. On precision grounds. It's apparent from the discussion that "Dassaretae" doesn't unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, while Dexaroi does a better job at that. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 19:17, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Dassaretae → Dexaroi – The name of the tribe that is the subject of this article is recorded as Dexaroi by ancient Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus, cited by Stephanus of Byzantium. Whether the Dexaroi were the same as the Dassaretae, a tribe that is mentioned in Roman times, is a matter of dispute among scholars. The name of the article should not be hypothetical, misleading, and contrasting with the views of many present-day scholars. Βατο ( talk) 12:11, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Dassareten, Volk in Illyrien; Polybios <erwähnt sie> im achten Buch (8,14b,1). Und das Femininum <dazu lautet> Dassaretidin. Man nennt sie auch Dassarener und Dassaretier, und <das Ktetikon lautet> dassaretinisch.Delta - Iota, pp. 14–15
Dexarer, Volk der Chaonen, Anrainer der Encheleer; Hekataios <erwähnt sie> in der Europe (FGrHist 1 F 103). Ansässig ist es am Fuss des Berges Ameron.Delta - Iota, pp. 28–29
The Dassaretae, or Dexaroi (Ancient Greek: Δασσαρῆται or Δεξάροι), were an ancient Chaonian tribe, living under Mount Amyron. In ancient literature the Dexari are mentioned only by the ancient Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus (6th century BC), cited by Stephanus of Byzantium (6th century AD). The Dexaroi were the northernmost tribe that belonged to the Chaonian group, one of the three major North-Western Greek-speaking tribes of Epirus. Mount Amyron has been identified by some modern scholars with Mount Tomorr, in present-day Albania. The mountain was probably located in a region that in Roman times was called Dassaretis. The Dexaroi have been supposedly equated with the Dassaretii. However, all these hypothetical connections remain uncertain.As you can see, the article is about the Dexaroi, and the Dessareti are mentioned only due to possibly being the same as the Dexaroi. -- Bes-ART Talk 16:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
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![]() | On 24 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Dassaretae to Dexaroi. The result of the discussion was moved. |
We can't, because Dasaretes are an Illyrian atested tribe. There are no Dexari and/or Dexaroi neither. Claiming that Desareti are a greek tribe is a false statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.94.17 ( talk) 08:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
this source here, says the were illyrian.
Epirote. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupidus Maximus ( talk • contribs) 20:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
and the Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny [3], [4]
illyrian [5]
Appian, though vague in his geographical placement of both, recounted the legend of the Dassaretae as one of the original Illyrian tribes.
The Dassaretae, an Illyrian tribe, is described by Pliny [6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupidus Maximus ( talk • contribs) 20:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Primary sources said; Dassareti were an Illyrian tribe. The ancient Hellenic authors had exaggerated many times, but they generally said the truth. Dassareti and Perrhaebi were Illyrians. Piro ilir ( talk) 16:36, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
There is only one tribe called Dassaretae and this tribe is Illyrian. Read the sources: [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] and so on - Euriditi 12:46, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you. Jingiby ( talk) 12:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
... an Epirot tribe, who later settled partly in Skyros; and a place in the land of the Illyrian Chaonians in Epirus founded by him ...- p.5, Classical philology: Volume 36;Volume 36, 1941.
The town Saranda is an ancient town, first settled by the Illyrian tribe of the Chaonians, who called it Onchesmus. Cicero mentions it as a convenient harbour with a favourable prevailing wind.
While in another source George Broke in his book History of Greece: Repr. from the ... London ed: Volume 3 - page 414 states that:
... Theopompus about 340 bc reckoned fourteen distinct Epirotic nations among whom the Molossians and Chaonians were the principal. It is possible that some of these may have been semi Illyrian others semi Macedonian though all were comprised by him under the common name Epirots.
(
img)Two republican States — those of the Chaonians and the Tliesprotians — were also barbarian ; but the Ambracian Republic, ... As respects its population, the barbaric element (due to the frequent inroads of Illyrian tribes) undoubtedly ...
Other sources: [17] [18] [19]. - Euriditi 11:07, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
That's true, Chaonians aren't anywhere mentioned as Illyrians in ancient sources, instead the Dassareti were . According to the ancient Hellenic myth, Dassareti were Illyrian. It's a primary source, and neither you nor a romanticist like Hammond can do anything against it. Piro ilir ( talk) 16:46, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Those above are sources I've already presented in talk:Enchele. Pardon me but is there a problem you can't understand the above quotes or are they simply interpreted is "assumptions" as you once said about modern literature? Alexikoua ( talk) 17:16, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae...Matijašić, Ivan (2011). "Shrieking like Illyrians": Historical geography and the Greek perspective of the Illyrian world in the 5th century BC", p. 293:
Mela (2.55–56) writes that hoc mare [the Adriatic], magno recessu litorum acceptum et vaste quidem in latitudinem patens, qua penetrat tamen vastius, Illyricis usque Tergestum, cetera Gallicis Itali<ci>sque gentibus cingitur. Partheni et Dassaretae prima eius tenent, sequentia Taulantii, Encheleae [corr. Olivarius: encele V], Phaeaces. Dein sunt quos proprie Illyrios vocant, tum Piraei et Liburni et Histria. (“This sea [the Adriatic], situated in a large recess of the coast and widely open in its width, in the place where it penetrates for an extensive stretch, is surrounded until Tergeste by Illyrians and on the remaining sides by Italians and Gauls. Partheni and Dasareti hold its first part, then follow Taulantii, Enchelei, and Phaeaces; thereafter come the properly named Illyrians, the Piraei, Liburni and Histria”).The Chaonian tribe is called Dexari by Hecataeus. If this article is about the Chaonian tribe, it cannot have the name used in ancient sources to describe an Illyrian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 17:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe. Each time he uses a similarly spelled name it is in an account ofan event in Illyricum between 200 and 170 B.C. This is long before any event involving the Daesitiates.– Βατο ( talk) 17:54, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Dassaretae, Illyrian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 18:15, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...( Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011), p. 342). All we know is that the term Dassaretae has been used by Pomponius Mela to describe an Illyrian tribe, not the Chaonian tribe, see Winnifrith and Deroux I posted above. – Βατο ( talk) 19:55, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
What were Perdiccas' Illyrian victors doing meanwhile? Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated.... The term Dassaretae is attested in Mela's works to describe an Illyrian tribe Hammond (1966):
Pomponius Mela (...) put the Pathini and Dassaretae as the most southerly Illyrians in his list, and Pliny (...) put them in proximity to one another: 'gentes Pathini et a tergo eorum Dassaretae.... This article should be renamed Dexari or Dexaroi, the name attested by Hecataeus to describe the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 07:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
(unindent) Enough with Pomponius Mela and other ancient sources. We are only supposed to rely on modern sources. I propose Dassaretae to refer to the ancient Greek tribe, and Dassareti/Dassaretii for the Illyrian tribe. Khirurg ( talk) 00:29, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Of these the most northerly near the coast were the 'Abantes' or 'Amantes' or 'Amantoi', since all these forms occur, and the farthest inland the Dassaretae, known to Hecataeus as the 'Dexaroi, a tribe of the Chaonians, next to the Encheleae' (FGrH i F Io3; and for the Encheleae see Strabo 326).40 The distinction between Illyrians and Dassaretii is seen also in Livy 42. 36. 9 (following Polybius), 'ad occupanda Dassaretiorum et Illyriorum castella'.
To sum up: The Greek tribe is primarily known as Dassaretae. There are also a couple of maps in this paper which you personally don't like (as you displayed in Enchele). Alexikoua ( talk) 07:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Calthinus, I am adding here some quotes from Cabanes and Fox, you can evaluate what to do next.
A partir de la Haute Macédoine, il faut maintenant chercher à suivre la zone de contact avec les Illyriens, vers la fin du Ve siècle, même si la documentation est souvent d’une époque plus tardive... sont établies sur le versant oriental de la chaîne du Pinde, comme les Tymphaioi, les Orestes, ce sont les Dassarètes qui sont le premier ethnos illyrien qui avoisine avec les Orestes...l’entrée en Illyrie étant défendue au IVe siècle par la forteresse de Pélion [From Upper Macedonia, we must now try to follow the zone of contact with the Illyrians, towards the end of the 5th century, even if the documentation is often from a later period...on the eastern slope of the Pindus chain, like the Tymphaioi, the Orestes, those are the Dassaretes who are the first Illyrian ethnos who neighbor with the Orestes...the entry into Illyria being defended in the 4th century by the fortress of Pelion...]
Entre Parthins et Atintanes, vers l’Est s’étend le pays des Dassaretes, dont l’étendue paraît considérable, puisqu’il comprend toute la région comprise entre l’Osum et le Devoll, dont la réunion forme l’Apsus (l’actuel Seman), le plateau de Korça verrouillé par la forteresse de Pélion et, vers le Nord la Dassarétide s’étend jusqu’au lac l’Ohrid (121). C’est certainement une zone centrale de l’Illyrie méridionale, celle qui est aussi la plus directement en contact avec les régions de Haute-Macédoine, notamment avec l’Orestide et la Lyncestide. Selon Polybe, (122), en dehors de Pélion, les Dassarètes possèdent, au début du IIe siècle avant J.-C., plusieurs villes, Antipatreia... [Between Parthins and Atintanes, towards the east extends the country of the Dassaretes, the extent of which seems considerable, since it includes the entire region between Osum and Devoll, whose union forms the Apsus (the Seman), the plateau of Korça locked by the fortress of Pelion and, towards the North the Dassaretis extends to Lake Ohrid (121). It is certainly a central area of southern Illyria, that which is also the most directly in contact with the regions of Upper Macedonia, in particular with the Orestide and the Lyncestide. According to Polybius, (122), apart from Pelion, the Dassaretes owned, at the beginning of the 2nd century BC, several cities, Antipatreia...]
Dans les opérations devant Pélion, en 335, le roi Kleitos, fils de Bardylis, le Dassarète, commande son armée et semble traiter d’égal à égal avec le roi des Taulantins, Glaukias. [In operations before Pelion, in 335, King Kleitos, son of Bardylis, the Dassaretian, commanded his army and seemed to be on an equal footing with the king of the Taulantins, Glaukias]
Here is Cabanes' report about Hatzopoulos suggestion of Bardylis as a Dassaretian king and not a Dardanian one:
M. Hatzopoulos...propose avec raison semble-t-il, de voir dans Bardylis un roi, non pas des Dardaniens comme le voulait Hammond, mais plutôt des Dassarètes, ce qui met son domaine au contact direct avec la Lyncestide et l’Orestide, et, lorsque ces régions sont plus étroitement unies au royaume argéade, avec la Macédoine elle-même (11). [Mr. Hatzopoulos ... seems to be rightly proposing to see in Bardylis a king, not of the Dardanians as Hammond wanted, but rather of the Dassaretes, which puts his domain in direct contact with Lyncestide and the Orestide...]
More recently Robin Lane Fox Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon (2011) analyzed the views of Hammond, Hatzopoulos, Cabanes and Walbank stating:
– Βατο ( talk) 19:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)Their own king Bardylis was king of a realm along Lake Ohrid and east to the two Prespa Lakes, the "Dassaretis" of later topography, not "Dardania", as Hammond postulated...
Βατο You complain about Hammond being outdated, yet you don't seem to have that concern at all about Cabanes...from 1988. Khirurg ( talk) 20:31, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Fortunately I have full access to this source. The specific quote concerns the Enchelae and not the Dassaretae. It can be easily confirmed from the source:
The Engelanes / Encheleis, the oldest attested tribe in north-western ancient Macedonia, dwelled near the present-day Ohrid. In the nearly same territorial span - from the Ohrid region in the south, up to Polog in the north - but much later, beginning from the second century BC, our extant ancient sources mention the Dassaretae. The question of their ethnic stock has often absorbed fellow scholars, resulting in several differing theories on their ethnicity: thus, there are theories advocating Illyrian origin4, a Macedonian3, a "later-Illyrised autochthonous tribe"b, an Epirote7, or a Brygian tribe8; some scholars tend to see a tribe of "later-Illyrised Epirote" origin9, others speak of "profoundly Illyrised Boeotian settlers"10, and so forth. The list appears to be endless.
Actually this is a good addition for the Enchelae: and indeed they were possibly considered Boetian settlers due to the myth of Cadmus. Also, interesting appears the fact that they were considered Illyrian exclusively by Albanian and outdated (until early 20th century) scholars (see footnote). Alexikoua ( talk) 08:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
The Engelanes / Encheleis, the oldest attested tribe in north-western ancient Macedonia, dwelled near the present-day Ohrid. In the nearly same territorial span - from the Ohrid region in the south, up to Polog in the north - but much later, beginning from the second century BC, our extant ancient sources mention the Dassaretae. The question of their ethnic stock has often absorbed fellow scholars, resulting in several differing theories on their ethnicity: thus, there are theories advocating Illyrian origin, a Macedonian, a "later-Illyrised autochthonous tribe", an Epirote, or a Brygian tribe; some scholars tend to see a tribe of "later-Illyrised Epirote" origin, others speak of "profoundly Illyrised Boeotian settlers", and so forth. The list appears to be endless. Until the 1950s, the interpretation advocating the Illyrian origin of the Encheleis and the Dassaretai gained the widest acceptance; this interpretation stood well until scholars, faced with many allegedly impenetrable problems of a similar kind, began to pay doser attention to the epigraphic and archaeological evidence. Owing much to the authority of F. Papazoglou, Yugoslav scholars have almost unanimously opted for the Illyrian origin of the Dassaretai, the tribe that had inherited the territory of the Engelanes / Encheleis centuries later.– Βατο ( talk) 09:09, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
4 It seems superfluous to remark that this position is, almost without exception, advocated by Albanian scholars, as well as various schol- ars - especially linguists - from the nineteenth and early twentieth century. On older works, see A. Mayer, Die Sprache der alten Illyrier I, Wien 1957, p. 135, s.v. Encheieai, p. 110,. s.v. Dassaretae; on the kingdom of the Encheleis, see P. Cabanes, Les Illyriens de Bardyllis à Genthios, 1V-II siècle avant J.-C., Paris 1988, 50. From contemporary scholarship advocating Illyrian origin of the Engelanes, see N. G. L. Hammond, A history of Macedonia I, Oxford 1972, 422.
However, the following paragraph (the problems facing a possible Illyrian origin of Dassaretae), well this is relevant. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
The only thing that we know of the Chaonian Dexari is this single mention in historical sources, from Stephanus of Byzantium (Ethnica) who cites Hecataeus of Miletus: Δέξαροι, ἔθνος Χαόνων, τοῖς Ἐγχελέαις προσεχεῖς, Ἑκαταῖος Εὐρώπῃ. ὑπὸ Ἄμυρον ὄρος οἰκοῦν.
Stephanus clearly distinguishes the Chaonian Dexari from the Illyrian Dassareti, listing also the Dassareti that were described by Polybius as a completely different tribe: Δασσαρῆται, ἔθνος Ἰλλυρίας, Πολύβιος ὀγδόῳ. καὶ τὸ θηλυκὸν Δασσαρῆτις. λέγονται καὶ Δασσαρηνοί καὶ Δασσαρήτιοι καὶ Δασσαρητῖνος.
The content of this article is based on the speculative equation of the Chaonian Dexari with the Illyrian Dassareti. The uncertain hypothetical link should be presented as such, not as a historical fact. –
Βατο (
talk)
13:33, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
"Najstariji podaci o Enhelejcima su sačuvani upravo u svjedočanstvu Hekateja, što se očuvalo u djelu Stefana Bizantinca, o Deksarima, haonskom narodu: „Deksari, haonski narod, susjedi Enhelejaca, kako piše Hekatej u opisu Evrope. Stanuje pod gorom Amirom“. Da li su Deksari u stvari Dasareti i da li je gora Amir Tomor u Dasaretidi, o čemu je govorio R. Katičić i danas predstavlja značajno i nedovoljno odgovoreno pitanje. Najviše što se može pretpostaviti u vezi područja rasprostiranja sa određenim stepenom sigurnosti jest mogućnost da su nosioci ohridske kulture iz Trebeništa bili Enhelejci." [The oldest information about the Enchelei is preserved in the testimony of Hecataeus, which is preserved in the work of Stephanus of Byzantium, about the Dexari, a Chaonian tribe: "Dexari, a Chaonian tribe, they live under Mount Amyron". Whether the Dexari are in fact Dassareti and whether Mount Amyron Tomor is in Dassaretia, of which R. Katičić spoke about, still represents a significant and insufficiently answered question. The most that can be assumed about the area of distribution, with some degree of certainty, is the possibility that the bearers of the Ohrid culture from Trebenište were Enchelei.]Furthermore, the Dassareti are considered by current scholars as the tribe of the first attested Illyrian king: Bardylis. You should understand that Wikipedia articles can't present modern uncertain hypotheses as historical facts. – Βατο ( talk) 16:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
If you missed it, the rilevant part to this discussion is: Whether the Dexari are in fact Dassareti still represents a significant and insufficiently answered question. Who is out of topic? You are now commenting about the WP:TALKOFFTOPIC origins of the Enchele and the equation of their tribal name with that of the Illyrian Dassareti by Strabo. Stay on topic, please. The article should present historical facts as such and modern conjectures as such, the current version wrongly leads readers to believe that Dexari existed in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, while they disappeared after Hecataeus (6th century BC) and the attested facts of the Roman period that you included actually concern the Illyrian Dassareti, including the title "Dassaretae". – Βατο ( talk) 10:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
the ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to DassaretaeThe stem he is talking about is Illyrian, you can see it here Dassaretii#Etymology. Although the two names stem from the same root, there is not certainity about the equation of the tribes Dexari with Dassareti, as stated by Juzbašić (2010). They lived in completely different periods, and most probably in different places (about the Dexari we only know that they lived under Mount Amyron). The link is a modern hypothesis proposed by some older sources, which still remains unverified. – Βατο ( talk) 10:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The name 'Dexaroi' is obviously his form of 'Dassaretai, after whom the area was called Dassaretis., please? – Βατο ( talk) 11:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The Dassaretae were an independent community though they were initially part of the Chaonian stateis Hammond's speculation. About Krahe, you are free to remove his suggestions in other articles if they contrast with more recent sources. The 1953 source that provides the etymology "Mountain of Zeus" trying to relate Dassaretai with Dios oros-oreitai, should be removed as per WP:AGEMATTERS, and because it goes against the relation of the tribal names Dexar- and Dessar-/Dassar-, it's also offtopic for that reason. – Βατο ( talk) 12:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
is a well known academic on the fieldis not a good reason for the inclusion of a 1953 publication (70 years old) in Wikipedia article, on the contrary WP:AGEMATTERS is a good reason for removal of that outdated source. – Βατο ( talk) 13:09, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Dassaretae initially recorded as Dexari were the northernmost subtribe (Greek: έθνος ethnos) of the Chaonians, based on the testimony of the ancient Greek geographer Hecataeus of Miletusis WP:POV because this hypothesis is not accepted by many scholars as a fact, hence it should be presented as such;
He describes them as the most northern tribe of the Chaonians, as a Greek-speaking peopleis WP:OR and unreliable, because Hecataeus, cited by Stephanus, does not provide that description;
since the x (ξ) is the phonetic equivalent of ss (σσ) in ancient Greek literature.is WP:OR;
The name Dexari retains more archaic features compared to Dassaretae in Greek spellingis WP:OR;
which is accepted by the modern scholars Hammond, Wilkes and R.J. Weber; Weber support something else, as included in the neutral version;
It appears that the chief magistrate of the Dassaretae bore the title "Strategos", a title typically given to the chief magistrates of northern Greek tribes during Roman antiquity.[14] As for their administrative structure an inscription of the Dassaretae epigrammatically lists the main organs of their state Δασσαρητίων άρχοντες, βουλή και δήμος (The archons, the boule and the demos of the Dassaretae).[15]is information that concerns the Illyrian Dassareti, Hatzopoulos does not mention the Chaonian tribe. He is one of the first scholars who supported Illyrian king Bardylis' affiliation with Dassareti;
It has been also argued that a similar spelling is shared in the names of two Illyrian tribes (Dassaretae/-ii and Dassarensis)., Weber does not suggest it, he states that two Illyrian tribes existed: Dassaretae (with all the other spellings) and Daesitiates.
Toynbee has argued that the mention of the Chaonian Dexaroi is evidence that the Chaones had been Illyrian-speakers originally, since the name 'Dexaroi' appears to be a variant of the name Dassaretioi of an Illyrian peopleWhy? About the primary sources, I did not use them, I used secondary reliable sources that provide information and analyses about the primary sources. – Βατο ( talk) 12:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
{{
Synthesis}}
. That section should be removed because it is unrelated to this article. –
Βατο (
talk)
13:45, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Various Illyrian tribes were located in the area north of the Dassaretae, in the region north of the mines of Damastion.Šašel Kos states "mines of Damastum in the region of the Dassaretes", not commenting on the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 18:21, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
If the equation between Dexari and Dassaratae is a subject of discussion, shouldn't the article be named "Dexari" in order to avoid WP:UNDUE weight to one narrative? @ Βατο: @ Alexikoua: -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
In Southern Albania the only Epirote tribes ... In an independent fragment Hecataeus mentions the Dexari...
Among Illyrian tribes ... the Dassaretae in Roman times ... Dassaretae, Illyrian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 11:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Relying on wp:PRIMARY is the epitomy of POV [ [25]]. There are plenty of secondary sourrces on the subject, follow wp:RS. No wonder even S. Kos does not being being that way:
Version by Bato | Quote cited by |
---|---|
The name "Dexari" is mentioned only once in literature of antiquity... | The Dexari, a Chaonian people neighbouring upon the Enchelei, as is stated by Hecataeus in his book about Europe... |
It is quite obvious that the proposed version falls clearly into POV even in the way it begins it deal with the subject. What's also interesting is that have archeological evidence that the Kuci zi Tumulus II belonged to Dexari rulers. As such there is also clear archaeological evidence on this. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
"The earliest preserved data come from Hecataeus of Miletus (the end of the 6th century B.C.), and were preserved by Stephanus of Byzantium in his toponoma-stic lexicon Ethnica from the 6th century A.D., under the heading Dexari (FGrHist 1 F 103): The Dexari, a Chaonian people neighbouring upon the Enchelei, as is stated by Hecataeus in his book about Europe, who lived under Mt. Amyrus (Δέξαροι, ἔθνος Χαόνων, τοῖς Ἐγχελέαις προσεχεῖς, Ἑκαταῖος Εὐρώπῃ. ὑπὸ Ἄμυρον ὄρος οἰκοῦν.). The Dexari and the Amyrus mountain are mentioned solely in this passage."Don't lose your credibility as an established editor with those false comments. We are WP:Here to build an encyclopedia. Furthermore, you undestand that you restored a version with much WP:OR, WP:CHERRYPICKING of sources like Weber, and WP:SYNTH of information to add a narrative unsupported by sources. – Βατο ( talk) 10:33, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
I will add those quotes. About Weber, you should read all the source and the content relevant to this topic: Weber 1989 :
"The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe (57). Each time he uses a similarly spelled name it is in an account of an event in Illyricum between 200 and 170 B.C. ...Strabo mentioned the Dassaretae among the tribes contacted along the route of the Drin river. ... Pliny, while not as obvious in indicating his sources , located the Dasaretae east of the Albanian plain and north of Epirus. ... Appian, though vague in his geographical placement of both, recounted the legend of the Dassaretae as one of the original Illyrian tribes."
"Like the Taulantii the Dassaretae first appear in a fragment of Hecataeus and are known throughout a long tradition that survived to Livy's day and beyond. According to Stephanus of Byzantium, Hecataeus wrote of the Δεξάροι, Έθνος Ξαόνων, who live υπό Άμυρον όρος. The ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to Dassaretae... Hecataeus placed Mt. Amuron between the Encheleans, who lived around Lake Lychnidus, and Dodona. The area is virtually the same territory assigned to the Dassaretae by Pliny, H.N. 4.1.3. He located the Dassaretae along the northern boundary of Epirus. The best documentation of the Dassaretae and their homeland comes from the period of the Roman conquest, the years between the first Roman incursion into Illyricum in 228 B.C. and the settlement of 167 B.C. Sources dealing with this period derive chiefly from Polybius, who first refers to the Dassaretae in his account of the split between the Illyrian dynast Scerdilaidas and Philip V of Macedonia in 217 B.C. ...It is to the west of the area in which Livy, drawing on Polybius, places the Dassaretae in 199 B.C.,...through the land of the Dassaretae directly to Lyncus, the western section of Macedonia."
"As part of his description of the Dardanian location, Strabo mentions the Dassaretae. The Dardanians and the Dassaretae, along with other peoples, are situated inland along the path of the Drilo River, the modern Drin."
Hatzopoulos provides information about "Dassaretae", who are attested in epigraphic material from Lychnidus, not this specific tribe. He is the scholars who has shown convincingly that Bardylis' dynasty was Dassaretan. You can't use every source that mention the tribal name "Dassaretae" and add it here even if it does not clearly concern the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 19:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe. – Βατο ( talk) 21:09, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
On Dassaretis, see Papazoglou, Cités 224-30., which is this source: Papazoglu, Fanula (1988). Les villes de Macédoine à l'époque romaine (in French). Greece: Ecole française d'Athènes. ISBN 9782869580145. It is one of the most detailed about the Illyrian region of Dassaretis and the Illyrian tribe of Dassaretes (this info, for instance:
"Sur la frontière occidentale de la Macédonie, les grandes tribus illyriennes des Dassarètes et des Pénestes, situées entre les royaumes de Macédonie et d'Illyrie, avaient souvent changé de maître.") Hatzopoulos, and other sources that are not directly commenting on the Chaonian tribe, can't be used for this article. – Βατο ( talk) 22:23, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
it seems that the chief magistrate of the Dassaretans was also a strategosdoes not cite Hammond, you can't imply it with your original research interpretations of the sources, do you understand it? – Βατο ( talk) 00:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Unable to accept Hammond's duality, Hatzopoulos presumes an error on the part of Polyaenus (based on Hieronymus of Cardia) who would have been ignorant of local geography. Along with the Chaones, the Atintanes will have been the most northerly of the Epirote communities. Beyond these but yet south and west of the real Illyrian Dassaretae, Parthini and Taulantii was a mixed zone, generally reckoned as a part of Illyria but culturally an extension of Greek-speaking Epirus.This is what Hatzopoulos supports, directly commented by a reliable source, not by our personal thoughts. – Βατο ( talk) 00:39, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
References
Chanoes, name of a tribel state... in north Epirus which extented from the Dexari, probably near Berat
Dassaretae, whose country "Dassaretis" included the Malik-Koritsa plain. It was then the rulers of the Dexari, who were buried at Kuci zi in Tumulus II, and the Dexari themselves were the most northerly of the Chaonian group of tribes,
They were neighbours of Greek-speaking tribes, grouped under the common name Chaones, of whom the most northerly, the Dassaretae, extended into the lakeland south of Lake Ochrid.; Winnifrith, Tom (2002). Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania. Springer. p. 35. ISBN 9781349220502.
the Bylliones, reaching the north bank of the Aous. They were neighbors of Greek-speaking tribes, grouped under the common name Chaones, of whom the most northerly, the Dassaretae, extended into the lakeland south of Lake Ochrid. We owe our knowledge to the earliest Greek geographer, Hecataeus...
Wilkes98
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Weber
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Unable to accept Hammond's duality, Hatzopoulos presumes an error on the part of Polyaenus (based on Hieronymus of Cardia) who would have been ignorant of local geography. Along with the Chaones, the Atintanes will have been the most northerly of the Epirote communities. Beyond these but yet south and west of the real Illyrian Dassaretae, Parthini and Taulantii was a mixed zone, generally reckoned as a part of Illyria but culturally an extension of Greek-speaking Epirus.There are several other sources about Hatzopoulos' view on the specific subject. He considers the first attested Illyrian dynasty (Bardylis' one) as Dassaretan. he can't be included in this article, which concerns the Chaonian tribe. Also Morton (2017) (wrongly presented in this article as "Norton"), provides information about the Dassaretii, it is not about the Chaonian tribe. Also the part about Damastion sourced with Šašel Kos should be removed because Damastion is attested only in Strabo, as in relation to Illyrian tribes, in particular the Sessarethii, interpreted by modern scholars as Dessaretii. – Βατο ( talk) 12:07, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates.I am not interested in your thoughts because the information is well sourced. – Βατο ( talk) 12:54, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe... Like the Taulantii the Dassaretae first appear in a fragment of Hecataeus and are known throughout a long tradition that survived to Livy's day and beyond. According to Stephanus of Byzantium, Hecataeus wrote of the Δεξάροι, Έθνος Ξαόνων, who live υπό Άμυρον όρος. The ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to Dassaretae."Yur opinions about scholar's statements are not needed. The information should be included as provided by the scholar. You removed from the article: "Weber states that Dassaretae is an Illyrian name, and he equates the Dexari mentioned by Hecataeus with all the forms Dassaret- mentioned in Roman times." You also removed Winnifrith (2002) and Kunstmann & Thiergen without prividing an explanation, it is not constructive. – Βατο ( talk) 13:13, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
They are described as the northernmost subtribe ( Greek: έθνος ethnos) of the Chaonians, as stated by modern scholars J. Wilkes, R.J. Weber and N.G.L. Hammond.is wrong. The Dexari were part of the Chaonian state - it's stated in Hecataeus, it's not a modern theory. I have added that they are described
as part of the Chaonian tribal state(Hornblower) in the context of the one source which mentions the Dexari in antiquity. The modern theory is about the connection between Dexari and Dassaratae. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Illyrian name and not Illyrian tribe, it is content as per the source: Weber 1989, pp. 81, 83–84: "The spelling of Dassarentii resembles two known Illyrian names, Dassaretae and Daesitiates. Of the two, Dassaretae is probably the tribe Livy meant to describe... Like the Taulantii the Dassaretae first appear in a fragment of Hecataeus and are known throughout a long tradition that survived to Livy's day and beyond. According to Stephanus of Byzantium, Hecataeus wrote of the Δεξάροι, Έθνος Ξαόνων, who live υπό Άμυρον όρος. The ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to Dassaretae." . – Βατο ( talk) 18:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The content from Hatzopoulos is not directly related to the topic of this article, Hatzopoulos supports other theories:
We are not going to include all the information from sources that mention Dassaret- into an article about a Chaonian tribe that was attested as Dexari. – Βατο ( talk) 20:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
(p.95) The existence of a Kellion near Korytsa in Dassaretis, a region probably colonised under the reign of Philip II, is an indication that the name of the homonymous Eordaian community, the origin of which goes back to the Early Iron Age, had remained unchanged at least since the Late Classical period>Hammond, "Frontier" 213-14.
.
Hammond1 equates Beue, on the border between Lynkos and Dassaretis, with Euia, which is mentioned by Ptolemy, along with Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassare-tans.2 > Hammond, Macedonia I 64
Alexikoua (
talk)
23:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Hatzopoulos refers to this tribe.citation needed. – Βατο ( talk) 11:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
References
(p.95) The existence of a Kellion near Korytsa in Dassaretis, a region probably colonised under the reign of Philip II, is an indication that the name of the homonymous Eordaian community, the origin of which goes back to the Early Iron Age, had remained unchanged at least since the Late Classical period>Hammond, "Frontier" 213-14..
Hammond1 equates Beue, on the border between Lynkos and Dassaretis, with Euia, which is mentioned by Ptolemy, along with Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassare-tans.2 > Hammond, Macedonia I 64
Hatzopoulos refers to this tribe.Can you provide another quote about it? I provided specific quotes above, which refer directly to the views of Hatzopoulos. And they contrast with your WP:OR claims. – Βατο ( talk) 12:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
This piece of information gives credibility to Strabo, who notes that the Encheleis / Engelanes were also called Dassaretae - a widely accepted emendation of the term Sessarethii, which actually stood in the text. Having this in mind, some scholars identify the Dexari with the Dassaretai; this is dismissed by R. Katičić, on the grounds that the Chaonian tribes are never listed among the Illyrian tribes.41 41 R. Katičić, "Encheleer", p. 8. This identification was dismissed as early as G. Zippel., Die romische Herrschaft in Illyrien bis auf Augustus, Leipzig 1877, p. 13.". – Βατο ( talk) 15:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Κατά την απόψη του Katičić, πρέπει να ληφθεί υπόψη το γεγονός ότι στις γραμματειακές πηγές μετά τον Εκαταίο οι Δασσαρέτες θεωρούνται ιλλυρικό φύλο, ενώ οι Χάονες ποτέ δεν σχετίζονται με τους Ιλλυριούς. Επομένως, η άποψη του Hammond, σύμφωνα με την οποία οι Δεξάροι ταυτίζονται με τους Δασσαρέτες, δεν μπορεί να γίνει πλήρως δεκτή, όμως ούτε μπορεί να απορριφθεί, λόγω έλλειψης πληροφοριών.86 Ακολουθώντας τη γνώμη του Διόδωρου Σικελιώτη,87 οι αρχαίοι συγγραφείς88 θεωρούσαν τους Δασσαρέτες ιλλυρικό φύλο μαζί με πολλά άλλα φύλα (τους Εγχέλεις, τους Ταουλέντες, τους Πενέστες, κλπ.). Ωστόσο, ο Διόδωρος δεν θεωρείται αξιόπιστη πήγε καθώς το έργο του αποτελεί διάφορων ιστορικών πηγών. Κατά την σύγχρονη επικρατούσα άποψη, οι Δασσαρέτες και τα άλλά προαναφερθέντα φύλα ανήκαν στον κύκλο τον βόρειο-ηπειρωτικών φύλων, τα οποία σταδιακά κατέλαβαν την βόρειες περιοχές, συμπεριλαμβανομένης της Δασσαρέτιδος.89 Αντίθετα, η Proeva θεωρεί τόσο τους Δασσαρέτες όσο και τους Εγχελείς μακεδονικά φύλα, βάσει ανθρωπονομίας η οποία έδειξε ότι ένας ορισμένος αριθμός τα οποία παλαιά θεωρούνταν ιλλυρικά έχει τα παράλληλά του στην Μικρά Ασία, γεγονός που υποδεικνύει ότι τα συγκεκριμέντα ονόματα πρέπει να θεωρηθούν βρυγικά.90 Η περιοχή της Δασσαρέτιδος εκτεινόταν δυτικά τον δύο περιοχών της Άνω Μακεδονίας, της Ορεστίδος και της Λυγκηστίδος, επομένως θεωρούνταν παραμεθορια περιοχή. Από της πηγές φαίνεται σαφώς ότι η περιοχή της Λυγκηστιδος συνόρευε με την περιοχή της Δασσαρέτιδος,91 όμως τίθεται το ερώτημα από πού ακριβώς περνούσε η συνοριακή γραμμή η οποία διαχώριζε τη Μακεδονία από την Ιλλυρία. Κατά την απόψε της Grozdanova, παρόλο που στα τελευταία χρόνια οι ερευνητές προσπαθούν να ορίσουν τα συνορεύει της Ορεστίδος στην πεδιάδα του Πέσεν, η μεθοριακή γραμμή μεταξύ της Λυγκηστίδος και της Δασσαρέτιδος θα έπρεπε να περνούσε κάπου βόρεια της λίμνες της Μεγάλες Πρέσπας.92
89 I. Miculčić, ό. π. Αντίθετα, η Papazoglu "Les Villes (1988), σσ. 227-8, αποδέχεται την θεωρία σύμφωνα με την οποία οι Δασσαρέτες ήταν ένα ιλλυρικό φύλο το οποίο βρισκόταν στο εθνικό και πολιτιστικό όριο ανμεσα της Ιλλυρίας και της Μακεδονίας.Can you translate the citation 89 please? I don't understand which one is the Αντίθετα. Also, who are the "
τα άλλά προαναφερθέντα φύλα"? The views of a scholar which contrast with those of other scholars can't be considered as the "dominant view". – Βατο ( talk) 16:29, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Κατά την σύγχρονη επικρατούσα άποψη, οι Δασαρέτες και τα άλλα προαναφερθέντα φύλα ανήκαν στον κύκλο των βορειο-ηπειρωτικών φύλων, τα οποία σταδιακά κατέλαβαν τις βόρειες περιοχές, συμπεριλαμβανομένης της Δασσαρήτιδος
So for an unknown reason you feel that this needs to be hidden. You need to stop this disruptive wp:IDHT pattern. Why you also remove Proeva?
Alexikoua (
talk)
16:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Behind the coast Illyrians bordered the Chaones, the Epirote people of whom the Dexari or Dassaretae were the most northerly and bordered the Illyrian Enchelei, the 'eel-men', whose name points to a location near Lake Ohrid...likely to have been part of the Taulantii until they first appear as Roman allies late in the third century BC.8 8 Hammond 1966, 1967b, 606-7.and who considered in that book Bardylis as a Dardanian ruler like Hammond, a speculation already dismissed 30 years ago. In current scholarship the first attested Illyrian king is considered Dassaretan. Wikipedia should present updated information generally accepted in scholarship, not outdated hypotheses that contrast with recent publications. – Βατο ( talk) 11:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Thus far the available inscriptional evidence from the region reveals a majority of Greek onomastics with a few Illyrian as well as possible Phrygian ones.Hatzopoulos does not support it: Hatzopoulos 1997, p. 144: "The fragmentarity and corruption of the manuscript tradition of the available sources makes it impossible to clarify the relations between the Dassaretioi and the Encheleis. Study of the peronsal names of these regions might help to resolve the matter. Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek, and indded Macedonian, names with few Illyrian ones, especially in the south, and also with a few other, probably Phyrgian names they do not permit the drawing of any clear conclusion." Come on, you are an experienced editor, do not add original research into articles. – Βατο ( talk) 17:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Study of the personal names of these regions *Dassaretae and Enchelae) might help to resolve the matter. Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek: the available personals names in the area display a clear Greek majority. An experienced editor can understand that this is perfectly backed by RS. Off course additional text can be added but that isn't a reason for a disruptive full removal. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexi, please, stop disruptive inclusion of WP:OR, the source does not state "inscriptional evidence from the region of the Dassaretae and the Enchelae", but "Unfortunately, only those from the areas in the former Yugoslavia have been collected: and although these exhibit the expected intermingling of a clear majority of Greek, and indeed Macedonian, names with few Illyrian ones, especially in the south, and also with a few other, probably Phyrgian names they do not permit the drawing of any clear conclusion." Furthermore, the source is talking about the Illyrian Dassaretioi. – Βατο ( talk) 20:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
The phenomenon of the intermingling of Greek and non-Greek elements, with the latter on occasion not being Illyrian but belonging to earlier population strata, is even more pronounced in the regions assigned by Strabo to the Illyrian ethne of the Bryges, Encheleis and Dassaretioi.Now start with constructive editing searching sources that actually describe clearly the Chaonian tribe and not the Illyrian one. – Βατο ( talk) 21:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
"Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here.[i] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article."Interpreting the sources with your original research should be avoided because it does not improve Wikipedia. – Βατο ( talk) 14:05, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-etre bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien.Hatzopoulos provides information about the Illyrian Dassaretans (Δασσαρητίων, Dassaretioi or Dassaretai), it should be removed from this article, which is about the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 00:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretansor
Lychnidos, city of Dassaretis, and that:
On Dassaretis, see Papazoglou, Cité. Why did you include that source into this article? It does not provide information about the Chaonian tribe. The article should include only information that is explicitly about the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 11:52, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans. cited> Hammond, Macedonia I 64. Yet again wp:IDHT. Lychnidus was located near the Epirote-Illyrian border, see S. Kos. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:43, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans. cited> Hammond, Macedonia I 64." is wrong, you are disrupting Wikipedia with WP:OR and addition of WP:SYNTH material. Hatzopoulos (1996) cites Ptolemy, Macedonian Institutions Under the Kings, p. 100: "Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans.2 2 . Ptol. 3.12.29". You can't use a source to suppose that a scholar support the hypotheses of another scholar if not explicitly stated by that source. The word "Chaon-" never appears in Hatzopoulos (1996), how can it be presumed that this scholar is referring to the tribe of this article? The current version of this article is a fork of Dassareti, instead of fixing it you keep adding other unrelated information to push a WP:FRINGE narrative unsupported by the sources you are using. – Βατο ( talk) 18:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
On the other hand the plain of Malik-Korce-Poloske, which formed part of the territory of the Dassaretii, was probably autonomous and not dependent upon Macedon. In the geographical terminology of the period it was a part of Illyris. It is possible that the single-wall fortifications above Zvezde, on Mt Trajan and above Tren were built by the Dassaretii at this time, as a measure of defence against the Macedonians.. In that paper he talks about the Dassaretii without linking them with the Chaonian tribe, but I avoided adding info from it to the article Dassaretii because I know Hammond's view, who considers the tribe a Chaonian one equating them with the Dexari. The same here with Hatzopoulos, he can't be included because he considers them always as related to the Illyrians. – Βατο ( talk) 18:58, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
This article should be named Dexari. The Chaonian tribe Dexari is mentioned solely by Stephanus of Byzantium citing Hecataeus, but Stephanus also mentions the Illyrian tribe Dessaretae citing Polybius, and clearly distinguishes those two tribes. Some older modern publications considered a possible equation of the two tribes, but in recent scholarship they are mostly considered distinct. The current name of this article (Dassaretae) is based on an old conjecture which still remains unproven, for this reason the article should be moved to the historically attested name. – Βατο ( talk) 12:13, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
and the Dassaretae possibly the same as the Dexari. The historically attested name of this tribe is Dexari, the other one is a conjectural relation unaccepted by recent scholars like Eichner (2004) and Campbell (2009), who distinguish the Dexari and Dassaretae, hence it is enough to make the title of this article completely inappropriate. Strong arguments should be provided to keep the current name of the article, since it contrasts recent realiable sources. – Βατο ( talk) 21:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
In spite of these difficulties Balkan and Western historians have produced maps recording a number of Illyrian tribes, and these show a good deal of uniformity. Balkan historians have tended to err in stretching Illyrian power too far, an inconvenience when we are faced with a tribe with a long name living in a small area, or vice versa. My own map is heavily dependent upon the work of others, but requires some explanation. South of the Shkumbin, and thus not in our area, we have Bylliones, appropriately near Byllis, and the Dassaretae near Korcë. These tribes bordered on people of Epirotic origin and dubious ethnicity, the Chaonians and Molossians, and the Dassaretae, possibly the same as the Dexari.who reports the Illyrian tribes south of Shkumbin - Bylliones and Dassaretae. Whether or not the Roman times Dassaret- are the same as the Chaonian Dexar- is a matter of dispute among modern scholars, and this article is about the Chaonian tribe. The current name of the article contrasts several reliable sources, violating WP:NOPOV. I fail to see a reason why hypothetical name Dassaretae should be considered more relevant as a title for the Wikipedia article about an ancient tribe that is surely attested as Dexari, can you provide one? – Βατο ( talk) 21:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I replaced old hypothetical reconstructions with new scholarship which criticize them. Also the history section should be updated because this new source: Vujčić, Nemanja (2021). "The City of Pelion and the Illyrian War of Alexander". Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies. 61. rejects many hypotheses by Hammond. Many old reconstructions, which are now presented in the article as facts, are now rejected in current scholarship. – Βατο ( talk) 17:14, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm afraid that's not productive editting & you need to provide at least a decent explanation for this massive removal of valid information. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
"In spite of these dificulties Balkan and Western historians have produced maps recording a number of Illyrian tribes, and these show a good deal of uniformity. Balkan historians have tended to err in stretching Illyrian power too far, an inconvenience when we are faced with a tribe with a long name living in a small area, or vice versa. My own map is heavily dependent upon the work of others, but requires some explanation. South of the Shkumbin, and thus not in our area, we have Bylliones, appropriately near Byllis, and the Dassaretae near Korcë. These tribes bordered on people of Epirotic origin and dubious ethnicity, the Chaonians and Molossians, and the Dassaretae possibly the same as the Dexari."
South of the Shkumbin, and thus not in our area, we have Bylliones, appropriately near Byllis, and the Dassaretae near Korcë. These tribes bordered on people of Epirotic origin and dubious ethnicity. – Βατο ( talk) 16:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
In Southern Albania the only Epirote tribes named by him apart from the Chaonians are the Athamanes, living in the middle course of the Vjoses river and associated with Amantia. In an independent fragment Hecataeus mentions the Dexari living around Korce. Hecataeus does not. That information can't be included as it is false. – Βατο ( talk) 16:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
According to Hammond, the allegedly destitute Dassaretis could not feed an army of this size, while Kosovo could.19 There are problems with this reasoning. First, we do not actually know the boundaries of Bardylis and Cleitus’ kingdom—it could have included other regions besides Dassaretis. But even the claim that this fairly spacious and productive country could not support an army of around ten thousand men during a summer campaign is dubious, and Hammond himself contradicts it in his other works..
"...il serait, entre autres, susceptible de nous livrer des informations précieuses sur l'origine des populations (et de leur culture) de la zone intermédiaire et peut-être bilingue, entre la Chaonie indubitablement épirote et le pays des Dassarètes et des Parthins non moins indubitablemente illyrien.– Βατο ( talk) 22:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Euia, which is mentioned by Ptolemy, along with Lychnidos, as a city of the Dassaretans.There is no mention of the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο ( talk) 06:40, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
It's far too obvious that this information concerns the DassaretaeNo, it's your WP:SYNTHESIS]. And don't restore conjectures in WP:WIKIVOICE. You must avoid that kind of editing. – Βατο ( talk) 20:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. On precision grounds. It's apparent from the discussion that "Dassaretae" doesn't unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, while Dexaroi does a better job at that. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 19:17, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Dassaretae → Dexaroi – The name of the tribe that is the subject of this article is recorded as Dexaroi by ancient Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus, cited by Stephanus of Byzantium. Whether the Dexaroi were the same as the Dassaretae, a tribe that is mentioned in Roman times, is a matter of dispute among scholars. The name of the article should not be hypothetical, misleading, and contrasting with the views of many present-day scholars. Βατο ( talk) 12:11, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Dassareten, Volk in Illyrien; Polybios <erwähnt sie> im achten Buch (8,14b,1). Und das Femininum <dazu lautet> Dassaretidin. Man nennt sie auch Dassarener und Dassaretier, und <das Ktetikon lautet> dassaretinisch.Delta - Iota, pp. 14–15
Dexarer, Volk der Chaonen, Anrainer der Encheleer; Hekataios <erwähnt sie> in der Europe (FGrHist 1 F 103). Ansässig ist es am Fuss des Berges Ameron.Delta - Iota, pp. 28–29
The Dassaretae, or Dexaroi (Ancient Greek: Δασσαρῆται or Δεξάροι), were an ancient Chaonian tribe, living under Mount Amyron. In ancient literature the Dexari are mentioned only by the ancient Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus (6th century BC), cited by Stephanus of Byzantium (6th century AD). The Dexaroi were the northernmost tribe that belonged to the Chaonian group, one of the three major North-Western Greek-speaking tribes of Epirus. Mount Amyron has been identified by some modern scholars with Mount Tomorr, in present-day Albania. The mountain was probably located in a region that in Roman times was called Dassaretis. The Dexaroi have been supposedly equated with the Dassaretii. However, all these hypothetical connections remain uncertain.As you can see, the article is about the Dexaroi, and the Dessareti are mentioned only due to possibly being the same as the Dexaroi. -- Bes-ART Talk 16:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC)