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It was no reliable sources given for whether the game was "cracked" or not. xrel is a community based website where everyone can upload nfo files (if you have a user account), one could fake such an nfo file. It is therefore not a reliable source as of WP:UGC. I do not see how this can be an accurate proof whether a game is cracked or not since this site does not offer any cracks, they just have (easy to fake) nfo files. Notice about not reliable source exist since August 2016 but has been ignored by authors. That information are reliable and accurate is the base for everything else. Of course if would be useful if there were reliable information whether a game is cracked or not. But these do not exist right now. And just making something up is no solution either. So I had no other choice than to take action and remove this questionable information, resp. to keep the column but remove the unreliable sources there (which were most of them). But please if you have any other provable information about this xrel site than I have let me know. -- TheRandomIP ( talk)
This is getting a huge amount of attention on reddit and people are questioning the impartiality of Wikipedia users hiding the status of the DRM circumvention efforts in Denuvo applications. -- Bisaknospus ( talk) 15:07, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the column may be not useful(and quite unreliable, there is no way to link the nfo directly from the cracker themselves or confirm its validity). But one can compromise by referring to a reliable source of cracked games count in the description, albeit it may need to be updated if it's too outdated, and there are not many (reliable) sources counting how many games cracked. How many games get cracked vs uncracked is quite a measure on how efficient it's. Another way is having game count table based on each Denuvo "version" rather than whether each game is cracked to avoid cruft problem, it is still hard to find a reliable source though, and the difference of versions is unknown. Ssd21345 ( talk) 15:43, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Edit : and if you keep all games, use predb.pw as source instead of xrel, as they dont use usersubmitted content and instead scrape from scene PRE logs. 143.179.86.164 ( talk) 16:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
@
Majikthise.uk: I think we all agreed that the version you just restored is the "worst of both worlds". Also discussion has not been finished. Can someone else revert please as I have done too many reverts already? I think as of now, a lot of people support the "keep tablecolumn out" solution. --
TheRandomIP (
talk)
I, for one, support the inclusion of the material. Benjamin ( talk) 17:08, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Assuming people agree to the inclusion of a 'cracked' column (personally support it but we'll see) The current compromise is atrocious. While it might make sense for the editors involved at the time, from an outside perspective you've listed falsely that 118 games are currently uncracked. Should have left the No's in at least while people slowly populated the table back up with more reliable sources. AiSard ( talk) 17:56, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Removing content not pointlessly repeated from a primary source to some kind of popular secondary source is advocating the loss of knowledge. This is ridiculous. The "cracked" column needs to be reinstated, and this article unlocked. 2600:1008:B04B:F2CD:1961:8DD5:5918:681A ( talk) 21:19, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Removing the column showing a game's status is censorship and it violates freedom of expression. Perhaps a third list of known cracked games is more to the taste of the person that remove the entire column. My advise, the person(s) that did that broke the law and that is a serious dollop of culpability as well. Bill of Rights — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.244.23.172 ( talk) 17:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm sure you could find any major gaming publication listing cracking dates for most games (for example https://www.pcgamer.com/search/?searchTerm=denuvo), this is extremely relevant to the article's topic, this is an anti-tamper software, people will be interested if the game was tampered and when, and there are sources for it. Removing this info is against WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED, and there wasn't any consensus to remove the column. Loganmac ( talk) 21:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed."Removing unreliably-sourced content is not controversial from a Wikipedia policy perspective. You were in the wrong for restoring it without resolving the sourcing issue. As an admin, my concern is not with straightforward article quality control, though it did require a tactful, restrained response from both sides once it proved to be extremely controversial. A random inexperienced user stumbling into the midst of the controversy and throwing fuel on the flames by unilaterally deleting the whole section from the list without any consensus though, now that does not have a straightforward policy defense, that's why I call them out and not TheRandomIP. ~Swarm~ {sting} 20:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Please see below where I've tried to reorganize the discussion a bit and get it focused. -- ferret ( talk) 21:51, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I keep seeing mentions of these sorts of questions cropping up in the above discussions of reliable sourcing, and I thought it would be useful to break them out, because I think it's hard to have a useful or substantial discussion of whether a certain source is reliable enough when the underlying reality is that one of the participants actually just thinks that the fact shouldn't be there. It's hard to get anywhere with "is this a reliable source" when the topic keeps switching to "why is that content even in the article," and vice versa. So: can we maybe keep the listcruft/toomuch/notcatalog arguments separated from the reliability ones, to the extent possible?
To start us off, I can see both sides of this question. In a perfect world, there would be a reliable secondary source to point to so that we could include some brief summary content about how many games have had which versions of Denuvo and how long it took for cracks to appear, and the like. Unfortunately, as far as I know that sourcing doesn't exist. No reliable secondary source is doing that analysis at present. There is good sourcing for "this game has/had Denuvo and was released on $DATE," and it is at least possible that we'll come down on the side of finding reliable sourcing for the existence and date of a crack. Counting and adding up those numbers in order to generate a paragraph summary seems to fall on the wrong side of Original Research, but listing the games is pretty feasible (the list was there for years on end, and maintained pretty well, after all: it might not be perfect but it clearly wasn't an urgent problem either). It seems to me that ideally this page would be a summary rather than an itemized listing, but since that option doesn't exist, an itemized listing is better than nothing at all. Zabieru ( talk) 06:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 13:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I have moved this content from WT:VG.
Perhaps we should axe these entire lists and try to stick to the most notable titles using them or the most notable crackings? Zero Serenity ( talk - contributions) 22:24, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
- +1 to just removing the entire table. ~ Dissident93 ( talk) 05:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- We should just remove both tables and enprose games that notably used Denuvo (such as the very first title, or the game Just Cause 3, which led a Chinese cracking group to give up on the game). [6] Lordtobi ( ✉) 06:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Bin the lists (or at the very least fork them) and prose it. Include the first use, the most controversial use, the most faulty implementation, the most successful implementation, notable removals of it by the developers and any high profile cracking of it (all previous suggestions dependant on reliable sources obviously). - X201 ( talk) 06:55, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- I'm in favor of that approach in theory, but in practice the only one of those you could source right now is the first use. There just isn't a lot of secondary analysis out there. Just for example: by one metric, "most successful" might mean "oldest uncracked," but 1. apparently we don't believe any of the good-history-of-accuracy-but-anonymous sources for "is there a crack" are reliable enough at this moment, and 2. that's probably some oddball game no one cared about. So maybe it's "the high-profile game that stayed uncracked the longest?" That sounds good to me, but now you need to find a secondary source to tell you about that, and you're also going to need to keep revising that paragraph on a regular basis. (That's kind of a hidden advantage to the table approach: it's easier and more obvious for some rando editor to add new entries to a table rather than attempting a wholesale revision of the "most faulty implementation" section of a prose paragraph, not to mention the judgement call involved...) Giving a table lets the reader make that assessment for themselves even though we don't have the sourcing to spoon-feed it to them. It's not ideal, but I think it's better than nothing. Zabieru ( talk) 08:07, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Removing the tables outright would be my favored endgame as well. For the record, I was the one who removed the column after another user had merely emptied and edit warred over it; my chief intention doing this was to initially quell the controversy coming in from Reddit, as it's a lot easier to justify the lack of a column rather than justifying why a column is filled with empty cells and a few strewn "yes" here and there (which will, of course, imply that every cell that's not a "yes" is a "no"); at least when you're justifying to a mob that's assuming some employee shill is getting paid to sit around and edit Wikipedia articles. I have since defended the removal of the column on the article's Talk page with many of the same arguments as above, chiefly that it isn't (or shouldn't be) Wikipedia's job to keep readers informed about the status of illegal software cracks. A good compromise that was proposed on the Talk page was removing the column and adding a section that specifically talks about the effectivity (or lack of it) of Denuvo to "make up" for the lost information of "every game is cracked" that the table provided earlier - I'm thinking that would indeed be the best thing to do, as it would placate everyone, except that I'm of the opinion that this new section should replace the entire table, not just the cracked-or-not column. I would, however, not be in favor of removing the table with no "replacement" for it, if only to not conjure up yet another typhoon in a bottle from Reddit or wherever. -- ThePaSch ( talk) 09:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
For a little background: the article had that list for years. It was frequently updated and mostly well-maintained, aside from the latent question (never, to my knowledge, actually asked previous to this current scuffle) of whether scene NFOs are reliable sources or not. One editor decided to axe the column because he felt the sourcing was no good. Oddly, he made no attempt whatsoever to find better sources or discuss the issue beforehand. He got some pushback and decided to keep on reverting (five times!) complete with snide commentary in his edit summaries rather than take it to the talk page. When he finally did, it turns out some people agreed with him and some didn't. Ferret was in the latter category (though unlike the original editor, Ferret's been reasonable and willing to discuss the matter appropriately.) So in this case, in as much as anyone's "brigading," it's in favor of a long-functioning status quo and in defense of wp:consensus, etc. I don't love it either (can't stand most Reddit VG communities, personally) but I think Ferret's suggestion that "reddit wants a cracked column" is a little dodgy in light of the actual history.
One problem here is that there is a significant lack of good analysis in secondary sources, but there are decent and reliable primary sources for a lot of the basic facts. For instance, secondary sourcing on what games use Denuvo (or how many, or where one version leaves off and the next begins, or the like) is spotty and hard to find, but someone has made a consistent effort to use Steam pages (which are, for this narrow purpose, reliable primary sources IMO) to keep the list up to date.
So the question is less "should we put in a summary with a few notable examples and some analysis or should we have an itemized list" than "should we have an itemized list or nothing." There simply isn't an appropriate source, to my knowledge, for the sort of generalizations and summaries you'd want to put in a subsection like that (and deriving it by counting Steam pages yourself is, of course, original research.) We do have decent data to let the reader do their own simple analysis, though. To my eye, that seems like the better of the two choices. Zabieru ( talk) 07:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Side note: While I left a message here, I did intent it more for editors to contribute at the talk page :) The discussion here is currently split from the discussion at the article, and going down seperate paths. Interested parties should probably join there, especially in regards to pushing for the table to be removed entirely. -- ferret ( talk) 11:39, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- For me, the only reason to keep the table is if it serves any value. They didn't create the game, so I'm not sure why we'd give similiar to developer credit Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 12:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- It seems pretty easy to verify which titles have Denuvo, and (at least at this point) it’s not so unmanageable in the main article (which is preferable to a fork.) I’d agree with removing the ‘cracked’ column wholesale and going through notable examples and summaries from reliable sources, as the sourcing for doing that properly for the entire otherwise easily-verifiable list is pretty thin. A certain segment of gamers gonna’ get their jimmies rustled no matter what, but I don’t think ‘it makes Denuvo look more effective than it is’ is a very compelling argument, especially given the article as written. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- IMO the whole list must be removed for WP:NOTCATALOG and WP:TOOMUCH, it makes the article huge for no real reason. About the reliable sources, there can be no reliable source on if a game's protection was cracked because the people doing the reverse engineering are highly secretive and don't even like those cracks leaking most of the time. News/gaming news sites are definitely not reliable sources as they can't know too, they simply are informed usually by a 10th hand source, ie reddit that a game was cracked, reddit itself in that regard is more reliable than gaming news sites. The only reliable and easily web-facing accessible way if a scene release exist and is approved by the scene (not nuked) are pre websites that are known to provide that kind of information. Again, this shouldn't even be the point of discussion here. -- Hacker?pcs 19:42, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
-- Izno ( talk) 20:49, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I feel an arbitrary break is needed if we're going to find any sort of resolution beyond it simply staying as is, and potentially being edit warred over again in two weeks. The general issue here is the removal of data in, and then the entirity of, a "Cracked" column for the table of games. One thing I want to open with is something I feel some comments have glossed over: There is an entire history section devoted almost entirely to mentioning the first time various Denuvo versions were cracked. The fact that Denuvo gets cracked has not been removed from this article in anyway.
There's four general outcomes that I can see in the various responses and comments.
Consensus needs to be developed on where to go, with policy backed reasons. If there's another possible outcome that I didn't think up here, feel free to bring it up. -- ferret ( talk) 21:44, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
{{
ping}}
as needed)
czar
12:36, 4 May 2019 (UTC)I skimmed all the chat - there was a lot of discussion about citing sources for cracks, and whether that column was relevant or not. Personally, that wasn't of interest to me, and the column could go or stay. But it seems that the discussion of the column has led to removal of the whole table, that listed which games had Denuvo removed from them, and when, which seems like overkill.
Just for a different perspective - once a month I visit /info/en/?search=Denuvo#List_of_games_formerly_using_Denuvo If there are new games that have had Denuvo removed, and which I fancy, then I go and buy them. I used Wikipedia as an information source on this subject - it was handy at-a-glance information. By removing the whole table a useful and practical information source has been removed. I just thought I'd mention that it was a useful and reliable source of information to me, it's a shame it has been removed (just the game and date of removal, in chronological or reverse chronological order, were all I needed).
PS I'm not necessarily asking for action, I just thought it might be useful to know how some people used part of the information that has been removed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.35.40.230 ( talk) 09:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Update: thanks. I may use those sources, though they are all inferior (e.g. the Reddit one at https://www.reddit.com/r/CrackWatch/comments/avrrh6/crack_watch_games/ has no shortcut to the # menu for "GAMES THAT NO LONGER HAVE DENUVO" so requires scrolling to some mid-point in a long page of tables; plus, it is in order of game release date, so the only way to tell if an older game has just had Denuvo removed is to kind of memorise the whole list and look for changes, whereas the Wikipedia article put them at the end of the list (with the date when Denuvo was removed) so it took about 3 seconds to check - there's no alternative at the Reddit address. Again, it's not the end of the world, I just imagine I'll stop tracking and buying games that have had Denuvo removed. It saves me money. I just liked to say "thanks" and show that removing it did lead to additional sales.
Pcgamer has an article discussing cracked Denuvo games released today, but its source is from /r/CrackWatch. Which includes a small list if you want to use as reference in the future. https://www.pcgamer.com/denuvo-cracks-2019/ Ssd21345 ( talk) 09:37, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Not the same - a game can be cracked but still be for sale with Denuvo. I wanted a list (as Wikipedia had) which can be sorted by the date that Denuvo was removed from the retail version. That's not the same as the game being cracked.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.35.40.230 ( talk) 13:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I believe this needs a more complete arbitration and review than what I see on these talk page posts. The removal has picked up commentary on TorrentFreak now. TorrentFreak is widely held in various discussions on WP:RS as being a reliable source for copyright, DRM, and file sharing information. That the debate has now been picked up by a principal reporter for such matters leads me to request arbitration on the keep/remove debate.
as the information principally existed prior to debate on the talk page I have restored it pending said arbitration and request equally that the page be protected pending the outcome
Lostinlodos (
talk)
18:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Do you take issue with this being included in the article, or with the list itself? If it is the former I’d be happy to break the list to it’s own page.
Lostinlodos (
talk)
03:20, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
The removal of the Denuvo table was an unnecessary reaction to the controversy regarding the cracked sources table. Whether or not having NFO sources or providing information on what is and isn't cracked is undoubtedly not information that has its place on Wikipedia.
With that being said, there is no reason as to why we are trying to avoid having the information on whether or not Denuvo exists in a game or if it has been removed. Denuvo is NOT a zero impact anti tamper software, and people should have the ability to find a list to help them decide in making a purchase. The argument that other places have this information is not an argument at all- the more places that contain information with sources can create less outdated and miss-information. Not to mention that going out of the way to remove the existing information instead of marking it as outdated or needs sources is unreasonable.
To the users that want the table removed. Why? There is no reason to not have this information on the page. It's relevant to the subject page, important information for consumers, isn't bloating the page in any way, doesn't break any rules, and can be marked as outdated if necessary. If you want to remove the cracked or not column because using NFO files are against Wikipedia rules and are not great sources sure, but leave the table containing the information about the existence of the software in games. Swordstoo ( talk) 20:29, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
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The page appears to lack a semi-protect icon in the upper right of the page. Please add one to better reflect the article's current status. 24.196.156.115 ( talk) 19:20, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
File:Denuvo logo black.svg is the most current version, as verified in their website.
Hello! I dont understand why my edit about PS5 being a platform for Denuvo wasn't appropriate. Can anyone explain? - Philippemorin123 ( talk) 23:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
As a PuP (potentially unwanted program) denuvo is malware, why is this not mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.253.50.49 ( talk) 07:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
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It was no reliable sources given for whether the game was "cracked" or not. xrel is a community based website where everyone can upload nfo files (if you have a user account), one could fake such an nfo file. It is therefore not a reliable source as of WP:UGC. I do not see how this can be an accurate proof whether a game is cracked or not since this site does not offer any cracks, they just have (easy to fake) nfo files. Notice about not reliable source exist since August 2016 but has been ignored by authors. That information are reliable and accurate is the base for everything else. Of course if would be useful if there were reliable information whether a game is cracked or not. But these do not exist right now. And just making something up is no solution either. So I had no other choice than to take action and remove this questionable information, resp. to keep the column but remove the unreliable sources there (which were most of them). But please if you have any other provable information about this xrel site than I have let me know. -- TheRandomIP ( talk)
This is getting a huge amount of attention on reddit and people are questioning the impartiality of Wikipedia users hiding the status of the DRM circumvention efforts in Denuvo applications. -- Bisaknospus ( talk) 15:07, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the column may be not useful(and quite unreliable, there is no way to link the nfo directly from the cracker themselves or confirm its validity). But one can compromise by referring to a reliable source of cracked games count in the description, albeit it may need to be updated if it's too outdated, and there are not many (reliable) sources counting how many games cracked. How many games get cracked vs uncracked is quite a measure on how efficient it's. Another way is having game count table based on each Denuvo "version" rather than whether each game is cracked to avoid cruft problem, it is still hard to find a reliable source though, and the difference of versions is unknown. Ssd21345 ( talk) 15:43, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Edit : and if you keep all games, use predb.pw as source instead of xrel, as they dont use usersubmitted content and instead scrape from scene PRE logs. 143.179.86.164 ( talk) 16:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
@
Majikthise.uk: I think we all agreed that the version you just restored is the "worst of both worlds". Also discussion has not been finished. Can someone else revert please as I have done too many reverts already? I think as of now, a lot of people support the "keep tablecolumn out" solution. --
TheRandomIP (
talk)
I, for one, support the inclusion of the material. Benjamin ( talk) 17:08, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Assuming people agree to the inclusion of a 'cracked' column (personally support it but we'll see) The current compromise is atrocious. While it might make sense for the editors involved at the time, from an outside perspective you've listed falsely that 118 games are currently uncracked. Should have left the No's in at least while people slowly populated the table back up with more reliable sources. AiSard ( talk) 17:56, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Removing content not pointlessly repeated from a primary source to some kind of popular secondary source is advocating the loss of knowledge. This is ridiculous. The "cracked" column needs to be reinstated, and this article unlocked. 2600:1008:B04B:F2CD:1961:8DD5:5918:681A ( talk) 21:19, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Removing the column showing a game's status is censorship and it violates freedom of expression. Perhaps a third list of known cracked games is more to the taste of the person that remove the entire column. My advise, the person(s) that did that broke the law and that is a serious dollop of culpability as well. Bill of Rights — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.244.23.172 ( talk) 17:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm sure you could find any major gaming publication listing cracking dates for most games (for example https://www.pcgamer.com/search/?searchTerm=denuvo), this is extremely relevant to the article's topic, this is an anti-tamper software, people will be interested if the game was tampered and when, and there are sources for it. Removing this info is against WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED, and there wasn't any consensus to remove the column. Loganmac ( talk) 21:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed."Removing unreliably-sourced content is not controversial from a Wikipedia policy perspective. You were in the wrong for restoring it without resolving the sourcing issue. As an admin, my concern is not with straightforward article quality control, though it did require a tactful, restrained response from both sides once it proved to be extremely controversial. A random inexperienced user stumbling into the midst of the controversy and throwing fuel on the flames by unilaterally deleting the whole section from the list without any consensus though, now that does not have a straightforward policy defense, that's why I call them out and not TheRandomIP. ~Swarm~ {sting} 20:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
Please see below where I've tried to reorganize the discussion a bit and get it focused. -- ferret ( talk) 21:51, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I keep seeing mentions of these sorts of questions cropping up in the above discussions of reliable sourcing, and I thought it would be useful to break them out, because I think it's hard to have a useful or substantial discussion of whether a certain source is reliable enough when the underlying reality is that one of the participants actually just thinks that the fact shouldn't be there. It's hard to get anywhere with "is this a reliable source" when the topic keeps switching to "why is that content even in the article," and vice versa. So: can we maybe keep the listcruft/toomuch/notcatalog arguments separated from the reliability ones, to the extent possible?
To start us off, I can see both sides of this question. In a perfect world, there would be a reliable secondary source to point to so that we could include some brief summary content about how many games have had which versions of Denuvo and how long it took for cracks to appear, and the like. Unfortunately, as far as I know that sourcing doesn't exist. No reliable secondary source is doing that analysis at present. There is good sourcing for "this game has/had Denuvo and was released on $DATE," and it is at least possible that we'll come down on the side of finding reliable sourcing for the existence and date of a crack. Counting and adding up those numbers in order to generate a paragraph summary seems to fall on the wrong side of Original Research, but listing the games is pretty feasible (the list was there for years on end, and maintained pretty well, after all: it might not be perfect but it clearly wasn't an urgent problem either). It seems to me that ideally this page would be a summary rather than an itemized listing, but since that option doesn't exist, an itemized listing is better than nothing at all. Zabieru ( talk) 06:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 13:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
I have moved this content from WT:VG.
Perhaps we should axe these entire lists and try to stick to the most notable titles using them or the most notable crackings? Zero Serenity ( talk - contributions) 22:24, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
- +1 to just removing the entire table. ~ Dissident93 ( talk) 05:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- We should just remove both tables and enprose games that notably used Denuvo (such as the very first title, or the game Just Cause 3, which led a Chinese cracking group to give up on the game). [6] Lordtobi ( ✉) 06:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Bin the lists (or at the very least fork them) and prose it. Include the first use, the most controversial use, the most faulty implementation, the most successful implementation, notable removals of it by the developers and any high profile cracking of it (all previous suggestions dependant on reliable sources obviously). - X201 ( talk) 06:55, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- I'm in favor of that approach in theory, but in practice the only one of those you could source right now is the first use. There just isn't a lot of secondary analysis out there. Just for example: by one metric, "most successful" might mean "oldest uncracked," but 1. apparently we don't believe any of the good-history-of-accuracy-but-anonymous sources for "is there a crack" are reliable enough at this moment, and 2. that's probably some oddball game no one cared about. So maybe it's "the high-profile game that stayed uncracked the longest?" That sounds good to me, but now you need to find a secondary source to tell you about that, and you're also going to need to keep revising that paragraph on a regular basis. (That's kind of a hidden advantage to the table approach: it's easier and more obvious for some rando editor to add new entries to a table rather than attempting a wholesale revision of the "most faulty implementation" section of a prose paragraph, not to mention the judgement call involved...) Giving a table lets the reader make that assessment for themselves even though we don't have the sourcing to spoon-feed it to them. It's not ideal, but I think it's better than nothing. Zabieru ( talk) 08:07, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Removing the tables outright would be my favored endgame as well. For the record, I was the one who removed the column after another user had merely emptied and edit warred over it; my chief intention doing this was to initially quell the controversy coming in from Reddit, as it's a lot easier to justify the lack of a column rather than justifying why a column is filled with empty cells and a few strewn "yes" here and there (which will, of course, imply that every cell that's not a "yes" is a "no"); at least when you're justifying to a mob that's assuming some employee shill is getting paid to sit around and edit Wikipedia articles. I have since defended the removal of the column on the article's Talk page with many of the same arguments as above, chiefly that it isn't (or shouldn't be) Wikipedia's job to keep readers informed about the status of illegal software cracks. A good compromise that was proposed on the Talk page was removing the column and adding a section that specifically talks about the effectivity (or lack of it) of Denuvo to "make up" for the lost information of "every game is cracked" that the table provided earlier - I'm thinking that would indeed be the best thing to do, as it would placate everyone, except that I'm of the opinion that this new section should replace the entire table, not just the cracked-or-not column. I would, however, not be in favor of removing the table with no "replacement" for it, if only to not conjure up yet another typhoon in a bottle from Reddit or wherever. -- ThePaSch ( talk) 09:47, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
For a little background: the article had that list for years. It was frequently updated and mostly well-maintained, aside from the latent question (never, to my knowledge, actually asked previous to this current scuffle) of whether scene NFOs are reliable sources or not. One editor decided to axe the column because he felt the sourcing was no good. Oddly, he made no attempt whatsoever to find better sources or discuss the issue beforehand. He got some pushback and decided to keep on reverting (five times!) complete with snide commentary in his edit summaries rather than take it to the talk page. When he finally did, it turns out some people agreed with him and some didn't. Ferret was in the latter category (though unlike the original editor, Ferret's been reasonable and willing to discuss the matter appropriately.) So in this case, in as much as anyone's "brigading," it's in favor of a long-functioning status quo and in defense of wp:consensus, etc. I don't love it either (can't stand most Reddit VG communities, personally) but I think Ferret's suggestion that "reddit wants a cracked column" is a little dodgy in light of the actual history.
One problem here is that there is a significant lack of good analysis in secondary sources, but there are decent and reliable primary sources for a lot of the basic facts. For instance, secondary sourcing on what games use Denuvo (or how many, or where one version leaves off and the next begins, or the like) is spotty and hard to find, but someone has made a consistent effort to use Steam pages (which are, for this narrow purpose, reliable primary sources IMO) to keep the list up to date.
So the question is less "should we put in a summary with a few notable examples and some analysis or should we have an itemized list" than "should we have an itemized list or nothing." There simply isn't an appropriate source, to my knowledge, for the sort of generalizations and summaries you'd want to put in a subsection like that (and deriving it by counting Steam pages yourself is, of course, original research.) We do have decent data to let the reader do their own simple analysis, though. To my eye, that seems like the better of the two choices. Zabieru ( talk) 07:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Side note: While I left a message here, I did intent it more for editors to contribute at the talk page :) The discussion here is currently split from the discussion at the article, and going down seperate paths. Interested parties should probably join there, especially in regards to pushing for the table to be removed entirely. -- ferret ( talk) 11:39, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- For me, the only reason to keep the table is if it serves any value. They didn't create the game, so I'm not sure why we'd give similiar to developer credit Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 12:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- It seems pretty easy to verify which titles have Denuvo, and (at least at this point) it’s not so unmanageable in the main article (which is preferable to a fork.) I’d agree with removing the ‘cracked’ column wholesale and going through notable examples and summaries from reliable sources, as the sourcing for doing that properly for the entire otherwise easily-verifiable list is pretty thin. A certain segment of gamers gonna’ get their jimmies rustled no matter what, but I don’t think ‘it makes Denuvo look more effective than it is’ is a very compelling argument, especially given the article as written. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- IMO the whole list must be removed for WP:NOTCATALOG and WP:TOOMUCH, it makes the article huge for no real reason. About the reliable sources, there can be no reliable source on if a game's protection was cracked because the people doing the reverse engineering are highly secretive and don't even like those cracks leaking most of the time. News/gaming news sites are definitely not reliable sources as they can't know too, they simply are informed usually by a 10th hand source, ie reddit that a game was cracked, reddit itself in that regard is more reliable than gaming news sites. The only reliable and easily web-facing accessible way if a scene release exist and is approved by the scene (not nuked) are pre websites that are known to provide that kind of information. Again, this shouldn't even be the point of discussion here. -- Hacker?pcs 19:42, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
-- Izno ( talk) 20:49, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I feel an arbitrary break is needed if we're going to find any sort of resolution beyond it simply staying as is, and potentially being edit warred over again in two weeks. The general issue here is the removal of data in, and then the entirity of, a "Cracked" column for the table of games. One thing I want to open with is something I feel some comments have glossed over: There is an entire history section devoted almost entirely to mentioning the first time various Denuvo versions were cracked. The fact that Denuvo gets cracked has not been removed from this article in anyway.
There's four general outcomes that I can see in the various responses and comments.
Consensus needs to be developed on where to go, with policy backed reasons. If there's another possible outcome that I didn't think up here, feel free to bring it up. -- ferret ( talk) 21:44, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
{{
ping}}
as needed)
czar
12:36, 4 May 2019 (UTC)I skimmed all the chat - there was a lot of discussion about citing sources for cracks, and whether that column was relevant or not. Personally, that wasn't of interest to me, and the column could go or stay. But it seems that the discussion of the column has led to removal of the whole table, that listed which games had Denuvo removed from them, and when, which seems like overkill.
Just for a different perspective - once a month I visit /info/en/?search=Denuvo#List_of_games_formerly_using_Denuvo If there are new games that have had Denuvo removed, and which I fancy, then I go and buy them. I used Wikipedia as an information source on this subject - it was handy at-a-glance information. By removing the whole table a useful and practical information source has been removed. I just thought I'd mention that it was a useful and reliable source of information to me, it's a shame it has been removed (just the game and date of removal, in chronological or reverse chronological order, were all I needed).
PS I'm not necessarily asking for action, I just thought it might be useful to know how some people used part of the information that has been removed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.35.40.230 ( talk) 09:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Update: thanks. I may use those sources, though they are all inferior (e.g. the Reddit one at https://www.reddit.com/r/CrackWatch/comments/avrrh6/crack_watch_games/ has no shortcut to the # menu for "GAMES THAT NO LONGER HAVE DENUVO" so requires scrolling to some mid-point in a long page of tables; plus, it is in order of game release date, so the only way to tell if an older game has just had Denuvo removed is to kind of memorise the whole list and look for changes, whereas the Wikipedia article put them at the end of the list (with the date when Denuvo was removed) so it took about 3 seconds to check - there's no alternative at the Reddit address. Again, it's not the end of the world, I just imagine I'll stop tracking and buying games that have had Denuvo removed. It saves me money. I just liked to say "thanks" and show that removing it did lead to additional sales.
Pcgamer has an article discussing cracked Denuvo games released today, but its source is from /r/CrackWatch. Which includes a small list if you want to use as reference in the future. https://www.pcgamer.com/denuvo-cracks-2019/ Ssd21345 ( talk) 09:37, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Not the same - a game can be cracked but still be for sale with Denuvo. I wanted a list (as Wikipedia had) which can be sorted by the date that Denuvo was removed from the retail version. That's not the same as the game being cracked.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.35.40.230 ( talk) 13:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I believe this needs a more complete arbitration and review than what I see on these talk page posts. The removal has picked up commentary on TorrentFreak now. TorrentFreak is widely held in various discussions on WP:RS as being a reliable source for copyright, DRM, and file sharing information. That the debate has now been picked up by a principal reporter for such matters leads me to request arbitration on the keep/remove debate.
as the information principally existed prior to debate on the talk page I have restored it pending said arbitration and request equally that the page be protected pending the outcome
Lostinlodos (
talk)
18:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Do you take issue with this being included in the article, or with the list itself? If it is the former I’d be happy to break the list to it’s own page.
Lostinlodos (
talk)
03:20, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
The removal of the Denuvo table was an unnecessary reaction to the controversy regarding the cracked sources table. Whether or not having NFO sources or providing information on what is and isn't cracked is undoubtedly not information that has its place on Wikipedia.
With that being said, there is no reason as to why we are trying to avoid having the information on whether or not Denuvo exists in a game or if it has been removed. Denuvo is NOT a zero impact anti tamper software, and people should have the ability to find a list to help them decide in making a purchase. The argument that other places have this information is not an argument at all- the more places that contain information with sources can create less outdated and miss-information. Not to mention that going out of the way to remove the existing information instead of marking it as outdated or needs sources is unreasonable.
To the users that want the table removed. Why? There is no reason to not have this information on the page. It's relevant to the subject page, important information for consumers, isn't bloating the page in any way, doesn't break any rules, and can be marked as outdated if necessary. If you want to remove the cracked or not column because using NFO files are against Wikipedia rules and are not great sources sure, but leave the table containing the information about the existence of the software in games. Swordstoo ( talk) 20:29, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
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The page appears to lack a semi-protect icon in the upper right of the page. Please add one to better reflect the article's current status. 24.196.156.115 ( talk) 19:20, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
File:Denuvo logo black.svg is the most current version, as verified in their website.
Hello! I dont understand why my edit about PS5 being a platform for Denuvo wasn't appropriate. Can anyone explain? - Philippemorin123 ( talk) 23:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
As a PuP (potentially unwanted program) denuvo is malware, why is this not mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.253.50.49 ( talk) 07:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)