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In terms of discussing dendrochronology as a paleoclimate proxy, this article needs a lot of work. While it contains a lot of good information about the theory behind why and how tree rings work as a proxy, it doesn't explain the calibration well. Cronin's textbook mentions that calibration is one of the most important aspects of using proxies, and it is only briefly mentioned in the article. I took a class before where we did discuss the calibration curve of dendrochronology, but the article doesn't explain how or even why this needs to be done. It has the section on the dendrological equation, but this does not equate to the calibration, and when I finished the article, I did not understand this in the slightest.
Another major omission is the fact that the article does not discuss the pros/cons of dendrochronology. It does discuss the relative time-span the proxy covers, but it doesn't discuss other pros/cons. One question I had when I finished reading the article was, "How does this proxy compare to others?" The article should definitely have included more coverage on the strengths of dendrochronology, but also on its shortcomings, especially in comparison to other proxies. At looking at other comments on the talk page, I noticed that one person mentioned that the specific application on climatology is vague and minimum, and I couldn't agree more. After reading, I understand better the concept of tree rings and some of the finer details that complicate the issue (such as alternating poor/favorable conditions and "missing rings"), but I don't understand all of the applications to understanding past climates.
The sources used in the article are mostly peer-reviewed and seem relevant for the most part. There are a few particularly detailed, applicable peer-reviewed articles in the "growth rings" section, especially (Walker, 2013). However, the article doesn't do a good job of combining all of these sources into a detailed account of dendrochronology and its use as a climate proxy. It jumps around and briefly skirts by important topics; in fact, my biggest complaint is that the article needs to simply go more in depth on the real use of dendrochronology and establish a clear focus. As far as assumptions go, I couldn't really find much about this. Citations were used correctly, and there was nothing in the article that seemed "off" or made me really question its validity.
Yang, Bao, et al. "Temperature Changes On The Tibetan Plateau During The Past 600 Years Inferred From Ice Cores And Tree Rings." Global & Planetary Change 69.1/2 (2009): 71-78. Academic Search Complete. Web. 21 Feb. 2017. This article provides a heavily scientifically detailed analysis of a specific example of tree rings being used to reconstruct past climates.
2. Singh, J., R. R. Yadav, and M. Wilmking. "A 694-Year Tree-Ring Based Rainfall Reconstruction from Himachal Pradesh, India." Climate Dynamics 33.7-8 (2009): 1149-58. SCOPUS. Web. 21 Feb. 2017.
3. Hughes, M. K. "Dendrochronology in Climatology - the State of the Art." Dendrochronologia 20.1-2 (2002): 95-116. SCOPUS. Web. 21 Feb. 2017.
This article in particular is what I would have modeled the Wikipedia article after. It gives a detailed analysis of dendrochronology's applications to climatology as a proxy.
To improve this article, I would have broadened its scope. I would include more details about the calibration, the science of actually "reading" the tree rings, and more data about how different trees are affected by climate changes. I also would have provided some examples of dendrochronology actually being used, such as in the second article I cited above. Finally, the article's citations are good for the most part, but it needs to be more focused in (as I mentioned above) on the climatic aspects and give all of these topics equal weight. Anth1112 ( talk) 13:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Do you mean "annual rings"? "annular rings" is redundant. -phma
How does dendrochronolgy correlate with C14 dating? Ping 20:56, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Dendrochronology is one method used to calibrate C-14 dating-- Vsmith 17:18, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
How is the fact that one of the more probable measurements of bristlecone pine ring thickness is ZERO factored into dendochronology using such measurements? (See tree ring thicknesses from Methuselah Walk) Wdanwatts 13:57, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I know in some Geological periods the days were shorter. (Days are progressively getting longer in duration.) But the cyclicity of the days and the years still is the constant. I know nothing about Dendrochronology/ Growth ring, Tree ring's applied to fossils.
I do realize all fossil trees are not gymnosperm/ angiosperm types. MMcAnnis,YumaAZ
Unless I didn't understand it, it seems a self evident tautology with little relevance to the paragraph. From Tucson AZ, Jclerman 05:16, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't the "missing ring" mean that it was ASSUMED to be there in order to help correlation look better with other cores? Dan Watts 20:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
really now :D how disputed are tree ring dates? and i got directed here from some link that was talking about 18 yrs without treerings anywhere on earth... or somethin to that affect - what's that about?
I'm a spam fighter and I've been cleaning up the mess left by a mass spammer. User:Jclerman reverted my edit and requested with this diff [2] that the merits of the ast.cac.washington.edu linkspam be discussed here. This spammer has used multiple accounts to add about 200 linkspams in the past month. Here is the evidence:
The ast.cac.washington.edu domain is going to be blacklisted and this will lock editting for any article that has that link. I hereby request that the ast.cac.washington.edu spam link be deleted from this article so that further disruption is avoided. Thank you. ( Requestion 06:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC))
Doesn't anybody else get it, that "growth rings" are in:
a note from the SonoranDesert/Ariz. -- Mmcannis 21:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Growth rings should be moved to a separate page — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.115.231.110 (
talk)
14:04, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello, I'm a passing reader and notice that the sentence starting "Adequate moisture and .." is repeated.
The current article (2008-06-30) states that:
it [dendrochronology] can also match location because the climate across Europe is not consistent
I can see how you could match for age based on location or location if you knew the age by linking in with studied artefacts (cores, etc.) that were dated by other means. But, I can't see how you could take a sample and match it to a date and a location. Surely local variations mean that the rings in a tree are markedly different to those in another. Trees on one side of a hill get more sunlight and produce larger rings; trees get different moisture levels. One tree is shaded by a larger one, another isn't, the larger tree dies, the unshaded tree gets shaded by a faster growing neighbour. One tree competes for moisture in dense woodland whilst another stands alone in pasture land. Hence missing rings could occur in one tree but not in another in the same geographic locality. The article states that even different branches have different ring patterns, how does one cross-correlate then? How are such things accounted for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.188.144 ( talk) 00:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I am a retired professor and spent hours the other day making extensive editorial efforts to clarify and better organize content. The article was poorly structured had content misplaced in sections, had content that was conflicting, and had content that was unclear as to meaning; in addition to these issues, the article was all but devoid of proper scientific sourcing.
I spent hours working on this, and at the end, tagged the sections and sentences that contained factual content that needed supporting citation. In addition, I tagged the content where the sources were primary, rather than review -- a clear WP policy directive says editors are to report sparingly from scientific primary sources, and are to instead rely on secondary and tertiary reports in the sciences. An editor, taking umbrage with the tagging, reverted all the constructive structural, factual, and clarifying edits. I take issue with this, both in principle, and in specific.
In general, if the issue is with tagging, the tagging should be specifically addressed -- rather than reverting and destroying other work because the broad reversion is easy. Spend as much time as I did.
In terms of the specifics, I am willing and able to argue every specific content edit I made -- and I explain each in the edit summary that appears in the edit history. If the specific content changes I made are a source of concern, they should be addressed one at a time, so that the reasons for further, future edits appear in the edit summaries, so editors can tell why the redaction/reversion was done.
Bottom line, it is not acceptable practice either to remove large portions of editing, without talk, and with an edit summary tag that does not cover the real scope and intent of the reversions.
Change this slowly, over a period of hours, explaining each substantive change (as others did before my edits, and as I did in mine).
Finally, one substantive objection raise in an edit summary -- that the primary sources tag is for other article subject areas, and not for the science -- is clearly incorrect, and I have noted this at the editor's personal talk page.
Note, I am traveling, and not logged, and this should have no bearing on the reception of my substantive, scholarly edits.
71.239.87.100 ( talk) 14:37, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
There is a further disjuncture between the article lede and structure that I have not time or expertise to address. The lede speaks of "three main areas of application: [1] paleoecology… [2] archaeology and the history of art and architecture… and [3] radiocarbon dating" where I have added the numbering for clarity.
The article structure, on the other hand, lists the Applications as "5.1 Climatology... 5.2 Art history… [and] 5.3 Building history".
The correspondence between these lists is confusing (to this specialist, and so almost certainly to nonspecialists), and so I propose, with regard to the "Applications" content of the article, that either the article lede change to mirror the article (easy, and the minimal required by WP policy), or that the article content should be edited to parallel the structure indicated by the lede.
71.239.87.100 ( talk) 15:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Here is a list of the recent edits made, with brief reasoning. ALL CAPS ARE ADDED TO DISTINGUISH PROPOSALS FOR ATTENTION FROM WORK ALREADY DONE, and not to "shout". (This Talk being pasted in, from text editor, in haste, to avoid further editorial misunderstanding, and so without leisure of careful formatting.)
The review of the edits contains points that expand on what already appears in edit summaries; they are gathered here for sake of other interested editors. I particular, the edits now appear "top down", and so can be an easily followed guide to recent changes at my hand made in several steps, over several sessions. As noted, I also intersperse brief comments about article incongruities that I believe remain to be addressed.
Lede
[Note, see talk, the process of making the lede and article structures congruous is not yet done.]
History
[This section is in need of a scholarly re-write. It is both too narrow in scope, and without attribution.]
Growth Rings
NOTE: THIS SECTION, BY TONE AND STYLE, AS WELL AS HARD TECHNICAL CONTENT, IS SUSPICIOUS AS POSSIBLE PLAGIARISED MATERIAL, AS IT APPEARS IN LONG TRACTS OF DISTINCT VOICE THAT IS JARGON-RICH AND WITHOUT CITATION. AT LEAST, IF THE SAME SOURCE IS USED REPEATEDLY TO PROVIDE THIS CONTENT, THAT SOURCE SHOULD APPEAR FREQUENTLY INLINE (SO THAT THAT "SINGLE SOURCE" ISSUE CAN BE ADDRESSED). OTHERWISE, THE ACTUAL SEVERAL SOURCES SHOULD APPEAR.
Sampling and Dating
Reference sequences
THIS SECTION UNTOUCHED, BUT IS NOTED AS PROBLEMATIC, BOTH IN ITS FIT INTO THE FLOW OF THE ARTICLE, AND THE INTERNAL LOGIC OF THE SECTION CONTENT AS IT APPEARS. THIS SECTION SHOULD BE REVIEWED BY A SPECIALIST, AND REWRITTEN OR INCORPORATED INTO OTHER SECTIONS.
Applications
THIS SECTION LARGELY UNTOUCHED. SEE TALK, REGARDING THE INCONGRUITY THAT EXISTS BETWEEN THE LEDE CONTENT AND THIS SECTION.
Related chronologies
References
THE CITATIONS ARE OF GENERALLY OF DISPARATE STYLES, WITH MANY WEAK / POOR SOURCES, AND MANY URL-ONLY (LINK ROT-SUSCEPTIBLE) SOURCES. MAJOR WORK NEEDS TO BE DONE ON THE SOURCES, TO MAKE THIS A GOOD ARTICLE, WITH BOTH RELIABLE SOURCES, AND WITH THEIR PRESENTATION BEING UNIFORM, FOR EASY REVIEW AND USE.
71.239.87.100 ( talk) 16:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
"Herbchronology" - made-up word, please remove redirect. Almost no results on Google Books and Google Scholar. 86.179.191.90 ( talk) 02:57, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
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Specifically looking at this page's description of dendrochronology in terms of climate, the page needs significant expansion. The history section describes the efficacy of dendrochronology as a climate proxy effectively, but the specific application section on climatology is vague and minimal. For example, this section does not describe how tree rings are affected by different climates, it just mentions that they are affected in some capacity. The article fails to mention the specific types of data collected when looking at tree rings: ring width, density, resin duct density, ray cells per unit area, etc (Wazny 2001). These factors are crucial in understanding the methodology by which dendochronology can be used to analyze climate change. This page also fails to mention the strengths, weaknesses, and assumptions of using dendrochronology. For example, strengths include a wide understanding of ecological mechanisms that influence tree ring sizes, a precision in determining the age of certain tree rings, and an ability to demonstrate yearly weather variability over time in a particular area (Hughes, 2002). Weaknesses include the fact that dendrochronology only shows a small window of the entirety of natural weather variability over time, the variables recorded by tree rings are of little use to climatologists, and the strong assumption that weather patterns have influenced tree rings in the past via the same mechanisms by which they influence tree rings during the present day (Hughes, 2002). None of these types of information are found in the article, indicating the need for expansion.
Many of the sources listed are peer reviewed, however these articles are not specifically related to dendrochronology. Articles cited, such as (Reimer, 2013) are useful in showing the application of dendrochronology as a tool of radiocarbon dating, but do not explain the usefulness of tree rings to measure climate change specifically. None of the sources listed below are cited in the wikipedia article, however they provide detailed explanations accounts of the relevance of tree ring dating in modern science. Biondi, 2001, is a study that specifically uses dendrochronology to determine climate variably on a decade-wide scale for roughly four centuries.
Wazny, T. (2001). Wood as a Biological Time Capsule. The Korean Journal of Quaternary Research , 15(2), 119-127. Retrieved February 17, 2017.
Hughes, M. K. (January 01, 2002). Dendrochronology in climatology - the state of the art. Dendrochronologia, 20, 1, 95-116.
Biondi, F., Gershunov, A., & Cayan, D. R. (2001). North Pacific Decadal Climate Variability since 1661. Journal of Climate, 14(1), 5-10. doi:10.1175/1520-0442(2001)014<0005:npdcvs>2.0.co;2
In order to improve this wikipedia article, content needs to be equally distributed among the various topics mentioned. Details regarding the actual science behind how data is collected should be added, its efficacy as a climate proxy should be described, and the science of dendroclimatology should be explained in greater detail. ( Steiner.260 19:00, 17 Feb 2017 (UTC))
(1) How well does the article explain the use of proxy in understanding past climate?
Data analyses; Solid data from credible sources. Provides general knowledge that can be understood easily, but also displays a careful formula, THE DENDROCHRONOLOGICAL EQUATION for more knowledgeable scholars. Good overview of growth rings as well as sampling methods.
Assumptions; Dendrochronology is a scientific method accepted by those who study Paleoclimatology. Can only measure living trees. Width of growth rings from year to year aids in the understanding of what climate was like that year (small width = cooler ... larger width = warmer).
Strengths and weaknesses of the proxy method; Reliable way to date upwards of ~ 13,000 - ~14,000 years if tree is old enough. Provides consistent data in which correlates with other Paleoclimate proxy's... Good way to cross check other dating methods as well. Can be used in warmer climates lacking an ocean and/or glacial ice, where oceanic proxy's and ice core samples cannot be obtained. A weakness is that it doesn't provide information long ago. Due to this method being effective with living trees, the amount of time one can go back is limited to how long the tree has been alive.
(2) Are the peer-reviewed articles listed current and appropriate to demonstrate the use of the proxy?
(3) Make at least two recommendations for improving the Wikipedia article
- Sheasby45 ( talk) 01:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC) -
The dendrochronology article gives a decent overview of the topic, however, it lacks any substantial details about how exactly trees grow their rings. Such information would be valuable in understanding how this proxy works more fully. other proxies such as ice cores. The article does do a good job explaining the advantages and disadvantages of using this method, but I do think it could use some more details. A lack of detail though is an issue I have noticed throughout the article; I understand that there may not be as much interest in this topic, but I do think the subject matter should be expounded upon a bit. I did find the section on art history to be out of place with the overall article. I think this was too much time to spend discussing art history in a shorter scientific article, so unless more details are added to the science side then the art history section should be shorten. The rest of the article is very scientific in nature, but this sections devotes an unusual amount of time to the arts. The article does not appear to make any blatant assumptions about dendrochronology, but it should also be noted that the article's citations need additional verification, so some of the information is likely not accurate. As a reader from this article I understand why ring cores are used as climate proxies, but I do not have the understanding from the article about they are formed that I do for I found a peer reviewed article written by the F Martin Brown on dendrochronology written in 1937. While this article is outdated in a sense, it does provide one with an idea of dendrochronology’s history, which is covered in the main article. Brown’s article is not cited for this Wikipedia article. I also identified another peer reviewed article entitled “Archaeological Tree-Ring Dating at the Millennium” by S E Nash, which discusses various contributions that dendrochronology has contributed to scientific research. This article is not featured on the Wikipedia article’s citations section. Brown, F. M. (1937). Dendrochronology. Antiquity, 11, 409. Retrieved from http://proxy.lib.ohio-state.edu/login?url=http://search.proquest.com.proxy.lib.ohio-state.edu/docview/1293720739?accountid=9783 Nash, S. E. (2002). Archaeological Tree-Ring Dating at the Millennium. Journal Of Archaeological Research, 10(3), 243-275. Lyle1995 ( talk) 05:40, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Information on data analyses for dendrochronology is fairly well covered and explained in the article. Much of the article lists referenced facts and remains unbiased. The article does a good job of sharing many strengths and weaknesses of the dendrochronology method, however, it says there are many obstacles faced by this method but only lists one and does not discuss this obstacle in detail. It also does not provide a link to a page with more info on obstacles. List more obstacles to the dendrochronology practice at the end of the sampling and dating section or in a whole new section. Also in the Applications section under Climatology, the article refers the reader to another article without discussing anything on the climatology topic with respect to dendrochronology. A short description or summary of that topic would be a little more convenient. One of the peer-reviewed articles I found titled, Dendroclimatology and Dendroecology by Harold C. Fritz, does a nice job of covering the function and usefulness of dendrochronology. However, this article was published in 1971 so it is not recent but still provides relevant and accurate information. This article was also not used in the dendrochronology Wikipedia article. The second article I found, Dendroclimatology: extracting climate from trees by Paul R. Sheppard, was published in 2010 so not extremely recent but far more recent than the previous article. This article also provides a substantial amount of information on the dendrochronology topic and its usefulness as a method. This article was also not referenced in the Wikipedia article. -- Ekorte331 ( talk) 04:14, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
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The article says "As of 2013, the oldest tree-ring measurements in the Northern Hemisphere extend back 13,900 years." However the source (at p. 1872) says "Floating German and Swiss trees 12,580-13,900." I would read this as a floating sequence approximately dated, not one extending continuing continuously back 13,900 years. Do others agree? Dudley Miles ( talk) 16:04, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello All,
After getting to know some hard accusations about seemly habitual practices in the dendrochronology industry from active archeologist and dendrochronologists, I came to this article to learn more about this topic.
However, unlike other articles devoted also to other applied sciences, I have not found any "Criticism" section on this one. I'm not a dendrochronologist, but I'm very interested in its archeological applications. It seems that it's a sensitive subject, and I'm not qualified to offer a redaction for this proposed section. However, I could bring some relevant opinions coming from dendrochronologers and other scientists to represent an interesting picture of their claims, if the idea is well received and some editor is willing to attend this void.
The article that brought me finally to this proposal can checked at https://aardvarchaeology.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/dendro-dissidents-2/ , but the accusations were not unknown to me before.
Thanks, Cjbaiget ( talk) 17:57, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
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In terms of discussing dendrochronology as a paleoclimate proxy, this article needs a lot of work. While it contains a lot of good information about the theory behind why and how tree rings work as a proxy, it doesn't explain the calibration well. Cronin's textbook mentions that calibration is one of the most important aspects of using proxies, and it is only briefly mentioned in the article. I took a class before where we did discuss the calibration curve of dendrochronology, but the article doesn't explain how or even why this needs to be done. It has the section on the dendrological equation, but this does not equate to the calibration, and when I finished the article, I did not understand this in the slightest.
Another major omission is the fact that the article does not discuss the pros/cons of dendrochronology. It does discuss the relative time-span the proxy covers, but it doesn't discuss other pros/cons. One question I had when I finished reading the article was, "How does this proxy compare to others?" The article should definitely have included more coverage on the strengths of dendrochronology, but also on its shortcomings, especially in comparison to other proxies. At looking at other comments on the talk page, I noticed that one person mentioned that the specific application on climatology is vague and minimum, and I couldn't agree more. After reading, I understand better the concept of tree rings and some of the finer details that complicate the issue (such as alternating poor/favorable conditions and "missing rings"), but I don't understand all of the applications to understanding past climates.
The sources used in the article are mostly peer-reviewed and seem relevant for the most part. There are a few particularly detailed, applicable peer-reviewed articles in the "growth rings" section, especially (Walker, 2013). However, the article doesn't do a good job of combining all of these sources into a detailed account of dendrochronology and its use as a climate proxy. It jumps around and briefly skirts by important topics; in fact, my biggest complaint is that the article needs to simply go more in depth on the real use of dendrochronology and establish a clear focus. As far as assumptions go, I couldn't really find much about this. Citations were used correctly, and there was nothing in the article that seemed "off" or made me really question its validity.
Yang, Bao, et al. "Temperature Changes On The Tibetan Plateau During The Past 600 Years Inferred From Ice Cores And Tree Rings." Global & Planetary Change 69.1/2 (2009): 71-78. Academic Search Complete. Web. 21 Feb. 2017. This article provides a heavily scientifically detailed analysis of a specific example of tree rings being used to reconstruct past climates.
2. Singh, J., R. R. Yadav, and M. Wilmking. "A 694-Year Tree-Ring Based Rainfall Reconstruction from Himachal Pradesh, India." Climate Dynamics 33.7-8 (2009): 1149-58. SCOPUS. Web. 21 Feb. 2017.
3. Hughes, M. K. "Dendrochronology in Climatology - the State of the Art." Dendrochronologia 20.1-2 (2002): 95-116. SCOPUS. Web. 21 Feb. 2017.
This article in particular is what I would have modeled the Wikipedia article after. It gives a detailed analysis of dendrochronology's applications to climatology as a proxy.
To improve this article, I would have broadened its scope. I would include more details about the calibration, the science of actually "reading" the tree rings, and more data about how different trees are affected by climate changes. I also would have provided some examples of dendrochronology actually being used, such as in the second article I cited above. Finally, the article's citations are good for the most part, but it needs to be more focused in (as I mentioned above) on the climatic aspects and give all of these topics equal weight. Anth1112 ( talk) 13:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Do you mean "annual rings"? "annular rings" is redundant. -phma
How does dendrochronolgy correlate with C14 dating? Ping 20:56, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Dendrochronology is one method used to calibrate C-14 dating-- Vsmith 17:18, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
How is the fact that one of the more probable measurements of bristlecone pine ring thickness is ZERO factored into dendochronology using such measurements? (See tree ring thicknesses from Methuselah Walk) Wdanwatts 13:57, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I know in some Geological periods the days were shorter. (Days are progressively getting longer in duration.) But the cyclicity of the days and the years still is the constant. I know nothing about Dendrochronology/ Growth ring, Tree ring's applied to fossils.
I do realize all fossil trees are not gymnosperm/ angiosperm types. MMcAnnis,YumaAZ
Unless I didn't understand it, it seems a self evident tautology with little relevance to the paragraph. From Tucson AZ, Jclerman 05:16, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't the "missing ring" mean that it was ASSUMED to be there in order to help correlation look better with other cores? Dan Watts 20:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
really now :D how disputed are tree ring dates? and i got directed here from some link that was talking about 18 yrs without treerings anywhere on earth... or somethin to that affect - what's that about?
I'm a spam fighter and I've been cleaning up the mess left by a mass spammer. User:Jclerman reverted my edit and requested with this diff [2] that the merits of the ast.cac.washington.edu linkspam be discussed here. This spammer has used multiple accounts to add about 200 linkspams in the past month. Here is the evidence:
The ast.cac.washington.edu domain is going to be blacklisted and this will lock editting for any article that has that link. I hereby request that the ast.cac.washington.edu spam link be deleted from this article so that further disruption is avoided. Thank you. ( Requestion 06:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC))
Doesn't anybody else get it, that "growth rings" are in:
a note from the SonoranDesert/Ariz. -- Mmcannis 21:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Growth rings should be moved to a separate page — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.115.231.110 (
talk)
14:04, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello, I'm a passing reader and notice that the sentence starting "Adequate moisture and .." is repeated.
The current article (2008-06-30) states that:
it [dendrochronology] can also match location because the climate across Europe is not consistent
I can see how you could match for age based on location or location if you knew the age by linking in with studied artefacts (cores, etc.) that were dated by other means. But, I can't see how you could take a sample and match it to a date and a location. Surely local variations mean that the rings in a tree are markedly different to those in another. Trees on one side of a hill get more sunlight and produce larger rings; trees get different moisture levels. One tree is shaded by a larger one, another isn't, the larger tree dies, the unshaded tree gets shaded by a faster growing neighbour. One tree competes for moisture in dense woodland whilst another stands alone in pasture land. Hence missing rings could occur in one tree but not in another in the same geographic locality. The article states that even different branches have different ring patterns, how does one cross-correlate then? How are such things accounted for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.188.144 ( talk) 00:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I am a retired professor and spent hours the other day making extensive editorial efforts to clarify and better organize content. The article was poorly structured had content misplaced in sections, had content that was conflicting, and had content that was unclear as to meaning; in addition to these issues, the article was all but devoid of proper scientific sourcing.
I spent hours working on this, and at the end, tagged the sections and sentences that contained factual content that needed supporting citation. In addition, I tagged the content where the sources were primary, rather than review -- a clear WP policy directive says editors are to report sparingly from scientific primary sources, and are to instead rely on secondary and tertiary reports in the sciences. An editor, taking umbrage with the tagging, reverted all the constructive structural, factual, and clarifying edits. I take issue with this, both in principle, and in specific.
In general, if the issue is with tagging, the tagging should be specifically addressed -- rather than reverting and destroying other work because the broad reversion is easy. Spend as much time as I did.
In terms of the specifics, I am willing and able to argue every specific content edit I made -- and I explain each in the edit summary that appears in the edit history. If the specific content changes I made are a source of concern, they should be addressed one at a time, so that the reasons for further, future edits appear in the edit summaries, so editors can tell why the redaction/reversion was done.
Bottom line, it is not acceptable practice either to remove large portions of editing, without talk, and with an edit summary tag that does not cover the real scope and intent of the reversions.
Change this slowly, over a period of hours, explaining each substantive change (as others did before my edits, and as I did in mine).
Finally, one substantive objection raise in an edit summary -- that the primary sources tag is for other article subject areas, and not for the science -- is clearly incorrect, and I have noted this at the editor's personal talk page.
Note, I am traveling, and not logged, and this should have no bearing on the reception of my substantive, scholarly edits.
71.239.87.100 ( talk) 14:37, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
There is a further disjuncture between the article lede and structure that I have not time or expertise to address. The lede speaks of "three main areas of application: [1] paleoecology… [2] archaeology and the history of art and architecture… and [3] radiocarbon dating" where I have added the numbering for clarity.
The article structure, on the other hand, lists the Applications as "5.1 Climatology... 5.2 Art history… [and] 5.3 Building history".
The correspondence between these lists is confusing (to this specialist, and so almost certainly to nonspecialists), and so I propose, with regard to the "Applications" content of the article, that either the article lede change to mirror the article (easy, and the minimal required by WP policy), or that the article content should be edited to parallel the structure indicated by the lede.
71.239.87.100 ( talk) 15:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Here is a list of the recent edits made, with brief reasoning. ALL CAPS ARE ADDED TO DISTINGUISH PROPOSALS FOR ATTENTION FROM WORK ALREADY DONE, and not to "shout". (This Talk being pasted in, from text editor, in haste, to avoid further editorial misunderstanding, and so without leisure of careful formatting.)
The review of the edits contains points that expand on what already appears in edit summaries; they are gathered here for sake of other interested editors. I particular, the edits now appear "top down", and so can be an easily followed guide to recent changes at my hand made in several steps, over several sessions. As noted, I also intersperse brief comments about article incongruities that I believe remain to be addressed.
Lede
[Note, see talk, the process of making the lede and article structures congruous is not yet done.]
History
[This section is in need of a scholarly re-write. It is both too narrow in scope, and without attribution.]
Growth Rings
NOTE: THIS SECTION, BY TONE AND STYLE, AS WELL AS HARD TECHNICAL CONTENT, IS SUSPICIOUS AS POSSIBLE PLAGIARISED MATERIAL, AS IT APPEARS IN LONG TRACTS OF DISTINCT VOICE THAT IS JARGON-RICH AND WITHOUT CITATION. AT LEAST, IF THE SAME SOURCE IS USED REPEATEDLY TO PROVIDE THIS CONTENT, THAT SOURCE SHOULD APPEAR FREQUENTLY INLINE (SO THAT THAT "SINGLE SOURCE" ISSUE CAN BE ADDRESSED). OTHERWISE, THE ACTUAL SEVERAL SOURCES SHOULD APPEAR.
Sampling and Dating
Reference sequences
THIS SECTION UNTOUCHED, BUT IS NOTED AS PROBLEMATIC, BOTH IN ITS FIT INTO THE FLOW OF THE ARTICLE, AND THE INTERNAL LOGIC OF THE SECTION CONTENT AS IT APPEARS. THIS SECTION SHOULD BE REVIEWED BY A SPECIALIST, AND REWRITTEN OR INCORPORATED INTO OTHER SECTIONS.
Applications
THIS SECTION LARGELY UNTOUCHED. SEE TALK, REGARDING THE INCONGRUITY THAT EXISTS BETWEEN THE LEDE CONTENT AND THIS SECTION.
Related chronologies
References
THE CITATIONS ARE OF GENERALLY OF DISPARATE STYLES, WITH MANY WEAK / POOR SOURCES, AND MANY URL-ONLY (LINK ROT-SUSCEPTIBLE) SOURCES. MAJOR WORK NEEDS TO BE DONE ON THE SOURCES, TO MAKE THIS A GOOD ARTICLE, WITH BOTH RELIABLE SOURCES, AND WITH THEIR PRESENTATION BEING UNIFORM, FOR EASY REVIEW AND USE.
71.239.87.100 ( talk) 16:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
"Herbchronology" - made-up word, please remove redirect. Almost no results on Google Books and Google Scholar. 86.179.191.90 ( talk) 02:57, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
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Specifically looking at this page's description of dendrochronology in terms of climate, the page needs significant expansion. The history section describes the efficacy of dendrochronology as a climate proxy effectively, but the specific application section on climatology is vague and minimal. For example, this section does not describe how tree rings are affected by different climates, it just mentions that they are affected in some capacity. The article fails to mention the specific types of data collected when looking at tree rings: ring width, density, resin duct density, ray cells per unit area, etc (Wazny 2001). These factors are crucial in understanding the methodology by which dendochronology can be used to analyze climate change. This page also fails to mention the strengths, weaknesses, and assumptions of using dendrochronology. For example, strengths include a wide understanding of ecological mechanisms that influence tree ring sizes, a precision in determining the age of certain tree rings, and an ability to demonstrate yearly weather variability over time in a particular area (Hughes, 2002). Weaknesses include the fact that dendrochronology only shows a small window of the entirety of natural weather variability over time, the variables recorded by tree rings are of little use to climatologists, and the strong assumption that weather patterns have influenced tree rings in the past via the same mechanisms by which they influence tree rings during the present day (Hughes, 2002). None of these types of information are found in the article, indicating the need for expansion.
Many of the sources listed are peer reviewed, however these articles are not specifically related to dendrochronology. Articles cited, such as (Reimer, 2013) are useful in showing the application of dendrochronology as a tool of radiocarbon dating, but do not explain the usefulness of tree rings to measure climate change specifically. None of the sources listed below are cited in the wikipedia article, however they provide detailed explanations accounts of the relevance of tree ring dating in modern science. Biondi, 2001, is a study that specifically uses dendrochronology to determine climate variably on a decade-wide scale for roughly four centuries.
Wazny, T. (2001). Wood as a Biological Time Capsule. The Korean Journal of Quaternary Research , 15(2), 119-127. Retrieved February 17, 2017.
Hughes, M. K. (January 01, 2002). Dendrochronology in climatology - the state of the art. Dendrochronologia, 20, 1, 95-116.
Biondi, F., Gershunov, A., & Cayan, D. R. (2001). North Pacific Decadal Climate Variability since 1661. Journal of Climate, 14(1), 5-10. doi:10.1175/1520-0442(2001)014<0005:npdcvs>2.0.co;2
In order to improve this wikipedia article, content needs to be equally distributed among the various topics mentioned. Details regarding the actual science behind how data is collected should be added, its efficacy as a climate proxy should be described, and the science of dendroclimatology should be explained in greater detail. ( Steiner.260 19:00, 17 Feb 2017 (UTC))
(1) How well does the article explain the use of proxy in understanding past climate?
Data analyses; Solid data from credible sources. Provides general knowledge that can be understood easily, but also displays a careful formula, THE DENDROCHRONOLOGICAL EQUATION for more knowledgeable scholars. Good overview of growth rings as well as sampling methods.
Assumptions; Dendrochronology is a scientific method accepted by those who study Paleoclimatology. Can only measure living trees. Width of growth rings from year to year aids in the understanding of what climate was like that year (small width = cooler ... larger width = warmer).
Strengths and weaknesses of the proxy method; Reliable way to date upwards of ~ 13,000 - ~14,000 years if tree is old enough. Provides consistent data in which correlates with other Paleoclimate proxy's... Good way to cross check other dating methods as well. Can be used in warmer climates lacking an ocean and/or glacial ice, where oceanic proxy's and ice core samples cannot be obtained. A weakness is that it doesn't provide information long ago. Due to this method being effective with living trees, the amount of time one can go back is limited to how long the tree has been alive.
(2) Are the peer-reviewed articles listed current and appropriate to demonstrate the use of the proxy?
(3) Make at least two recommendations for improving the Wikipedia article
- Sheasby45 ( talk) 01:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC) -
The dendrochronology article gives a decent overview of the topic, however, it lacks any substantial details about how exactly trees grow their rings. Such information would be valuable in understanding how this proxy works more fully. other proxies such as ice cores. The article does do a good job explaining the advantages and disadvantages of using this method, but I do think it could use some more details. A lack of detail though is an issue I have noticed throughout the article; I understand that there may not be as much interest in this topic, but I do think the subject matter should be expounded upon a bit. I did find the section on art history to be out of place with the overall article. I think this was too much time to spend discussing art history in a shorter scientific article, so unless more details are added to the science side then the art history section should be shorten. The rest of the article is very scientific in nature, but this sections devotes an unusual amount of time to the arts. The article does not appear to make any blatant assumptions about dendrochronology, but it should also be noted that the article's citations need additional verification, so some of the information is likely not accurate. As a reader from this article I understand why ring cores are used as climate proxies, but I do not have the understanding from the article about they are formed that I do for I found a peer reviewed article written by the F Martin Brown on dendrochronology written in 1937. While this article is outdated in a sense, it does provide one with an idea of dendrochronology’s history, which is covered in the main article. Brown’s article is not cited for this Wikipedia article. I also identified another peer reviewed article entitled “Archaeological Tree-Ring Dating at the Millennium” by S E Nash, which discusses various contributions that dendrochronology has contributed to scientific research. This article is not featured on the Wikipedia article’s citations section. Brown, F. M. (1937). Dendrochronology. Antiquity, 11, 409. Retrieved from http://proxy.lib.ohio-state.edu/login?url=http://search.proquest.com.proxy.lib.ohio-state.edu/docview/1293720739?accountid=9783 Nash, S. E. (2002). Archaeological Tree-Ring Dating at the Millennium. Journal Of Archaeological Research, 10(3), 243-275. Lyle1995 ( talk) 05:40, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Information on data analyses for dendrochronology is fairly well covered and explained in the article. Much of the article lists referenced facts and remains unbiased. The article does a good job of sharing many strengths and weaknesses of the dendrochronology method, however, it says there are many obstacles faced by this method but only lists one and does not discuss this obstacle in detail. It also does not provide a link to a page with more info on obstacles. List more obstacles to the dendrochronology practice at the end of the sampling and dating section or in a whole new section. Also in the Applications section under Climatology, the article refers the reader to another article without discussing anything on the climatology topic with respect to dendrochronology. A short description or summary of that topic would be a little more convenient. One of the peer-reviewed articles I found titled, Dendroclimatology and Dendroecology by Harold C. Fritz, does a nice job of covering the function and usefulness of dendrochronology. However, this article was published in 1971 so it is not recent but still provides relevant and accurate information. This article was also not used in the dendrochronology Wikipedia article. The second article I found, Dendroclimatology: extracting climate from trees by Paul R. Sheppard, was published in 2010 so not extremely recent but far more recent than the previous article. This article also provides a substantial amount of information on the dendrochronology topic and its usefulness as a method. This article was also not referenced in the Wikipedia article. -- Ekorte331 ( talk) 04:14, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
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The article says "As of 2013, the oldest tree-ring measurements in the Northern Hemisphere extend back 13,900 years." However the source (at p. 1872) says "Floating German and Swiss trees 12,580-13,900." I would read this as a floating sequence approximately dated, not one extending continuing continuously back 13,900 years. Do others agree? Dudley Miles ( talk) 16:04, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello All,
After getting to know some hard accusations about seemly habitual practices in the dendrochronology industry from active archeologist and dendrochronologists, I came to this article to learn more about this topic.
However, unlike other articles devoted also to other applied sciences, I have not found any "Criticism" section on this one. I'm not a dendrochronologist, but I'm very interested in its archeological applications. It seems that it's a sensitive subject, and I'm not qualified to offer a redaction for this proposed section. However, I could bring some relevant opinions coming from dendrochronologers and other scientists to represent an interesting picture of their claims, if the idea is well received and some editor is willing to attend this void.
The article that brought me finally to this proposal can checked at https://aardvarchaeology.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/dendro-dissidents-2/ , but the accusations were not unknown to me before.
Thanks, Cjbaiget ( talk) 17:57, 18 September 2020 (UTC)