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I'm sick of all this Greek propaganda that Greece is supposedly 98% Greek! We all know there are large minorities in Greece, its not going to cause the sky to fall in if you admit it. Greece is flush with Macedonians, Turks, Albanians, Jews, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma and who knows how many Middle Easterners! How do you expect a country that was created out of imperialism and territorial expansion not to have minorities??
User:NikosP keeps removing information about the Greek Helsinki Monitor Report. His summaries are "first deal with the millions of Belarusians, Germans and Ukrainians in Poland, then come to try to villify Greece" and "revert soiling campaign by user Borachek". This suggests that in his opinion any mention about ethnic, linguistic or religious minorities in Greece is "villifying and soiling Greece". This in turn makes me think that his reversions are made from a Greek nationalist standpoint, which denies the presence of ethnic minorities in Greece, considered "impurities". But maybe I am wrong. I kindly ask user NikosP to explain his reason for deletion of the part about the report. Boraczek 08:41, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi! The Report says: "Local authorities have acknowledge the presence of some 100,000 “Slavophones,” while researchers have given twice as high as estimate (200,000). However, those with a Macedonian national identity can be estimated to between 10,000-30,000. Indeed, the political party “Rainbow” which was created in 1994 and has campaigned for the recognition of a national Macedonian minority, received 7,300 votes in 1994 and 5,000 in 1999, two elections it contested alone: these figures correspond to some 7,000-10,000 citizens of all (not just voting) ages. One can estimate that besides this “hard core” there may be other citizens voting for mainstream parties that also espouse this identity, hence the above estimate."
About the numbers of slavophones:
"While researchers": who are these researchers, anyway?
The latest research about languages in Greece is one from September 2001 made by [ V-PRC] (a research and survey company trusted by all media companies in Greece) for a major newspaper. This report [2] found the following numbers of slavic macedonian speakers: 5.6% in West Macedonia, 1.6% in Central Macedonia (except Thessaloniki) and 1.9% in Thessaloniki prefecture. Far from the "10%" in the whole Macedonia.
"can be estimated": how is the estimation made? The number of voters of a political party does not make a nation. The Rainbow Party except of its minority campaign is also a far-left party. Considering the number of communist voters in the area (the largest in Greece), how are they so sure that many of the voters supported only its minority campaign and did not see it as an altenative to the KKE (The year 1994 tells as something. It's after the alliance of the KKE with the right-wing New Democracy in 1989 which dissapointed many of its supporters). At that time the Rainbow Party was allied with another left-wing party the OAKKE.
So where is the scientific approach to all of these? Now, about the neutral approach on the subject from the Greek Helsinki Group Monitor. The greek organisation is rarely considered seriously in Greece. In no way should be considered neutral and third party organisation. It's president is also the president of the Homesexuals Association (so he is not a third party or neutral on these matters when it comes to GHRM, how neutral can it be?) and oups! the secretary general is a member of the OAKKE, so we have a political connection here. That's all about the neutrality of this organisation...
So, how do you decide that the numbers of the report should be mentioned (when we have a more scientific inquiry) and what would you say if we had 2-3 or even 10 different reports from other NGOs? — Ger ak i 2005-07-9 T 18:25 Z
At first, I hope that you didn't misunderstand my objections on the persons of the GHM. I sympathise both homosexuals and communists. What I want to say is that if the don't even try to show the are neutral (resigning from one of their two positions for example) probably they aren't. Would you trust the GHM report if the president was the Archbishop and secretary general the head of police? Probably no. The point here is because it's an easy thing to form an organisation and say whatever, it is hard to say which resource is valid enough to be cited. I can show you dozens of reports where half of the citizens of Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria are of greek origin, and some of them signed by university professors. Do we have to mention them on the articles for Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria? No. Because none of them is a result of a scientific survey but nationalistic propaganda. It's simple common sense. This is the case with the GHM report. There is no clue how they collected the numbers. They could easily put half or double and there would be no difference on the credibility of the report because there is NO credibility. So, I prefer the V-PRC results even with less accuracy, instead of the arbitrary estimations of the GHM report. Probably you'll say that we only cite the report without any claims that is valid. But when someone writes in a local newspaper "The Pope is gay" and you refuse it in New York Times, you will have more believers than not paying attention at all. A citation from wikipedia has a lot of weight, so we must take care of where it is given. — Ger ak i 2005-07-13 T 22:17 Z
100,000-200,000 Slavic speakers in Macedonia! Come on! :) Statistics like that make Helsinki Monitor untrustworthy. Maybe in that statistic people who know the word "voda" are considered Slavic speakers.
I suppose there are 100,000-200,000 people who's grandparents where Slavic speakers, but no way so many spekers nowadays. --
Mik2
19:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that this estimate is likely only if we consider slavic speakers also those whos' parents are speakers. Those people therefore have some experience of that language, can understand some things, but they cannot be conciderd speakers themselfs since they can only understand.
A rought estimate:Slavic is spoken in Macedonia mainly in Florina and Edessa perfectures, and to a lesser extent to Kilkis perfecture. In other places there are only a few vilages with slavic speakers. The total polulation of those 3 perefectures is 55,210+148,190+91,828=295,228 people. If we accept that there are 200.000 slavic speakers, then the 2/3 of the total population speaks slavic. This cannot be right simply, but not only, because only a handfull of people aged less that 30 speaks that language now. Therefore, to "reach" the number of 200.000 almost everyone aged more that 30 should speak slavic. This obviously cannot be true. The 100.000 limit is more possible, but also exagerated.
I cannot estimate myself a number. From my personal experience (One from my grandfathers is from Edessa, Pella and my mothers family from Florina) I may say that maybe 1/5 of the population of Pella speaks slavic now (30.000) and 1/5 in Florina (10.000). Taking those into acount we may say that there are about 40.000 slavic speakers in those perfectures. In Kilkis there live alot of Pontic greeks. Maybe half of the population speaks or understands Pontic. Also there are at least 5.000 Meglenitic speakers. There are only a few slavic speaking vilages there now. But i have no personal experience from there, so i could suggest a persentage.
These estimates are personal and I wouldn't bet on them. But I have the feeling that they are close to real numbers.-- Mik2 10:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. In the 1951 greek census, the last that included statistics about languages, there were 41,017 speakers of the slavic language. If there where 40.000 people then, there couldn;t be 100.000 or 200.000 speakers today. Posibly alot where afraid to answer, but from 41.000 to 200.000 there is a big distanse. And we are talking about 1951, not 2005.Mik2
I think the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) numbers need to be removed from the text altogether. They are not simply a range of high to low but a clear hyperbole. It doesn't warrant argument but amazement.
Having followed this issue closeley as I had the chance to work there from 2000 through 2003 with my business and family interests taking me all around the northern Greece region. Two of my grandparents, who were not ethnic Greek or Slavic were from there, so I was often looking for evidence of the various cultures. It is very clear that northern Greece today, including its Macedonia area, is strikingly homogenious. There were areas of large minorities and more importantly of ambigious ethnicity, but the first the mutual mass population transfers and second in the post WWII period the modern European non devisive concept of ethnicity has taken hold.
I am familiar with GMH. As two of my family were Greek Jews I initially followed their analysis of anti-Semitism. But it was clear to me that the GMH was engagining in both a lot of exaggeration, where they really made minor and vestigial prejudice sound like a huge deal in Greece. Having lived in France, Italy, Spain and Bulgaria I found their assertions of some sharp and broad anti-Semitism in Greece to be uninformed and really a problem in search of a client.
Reading the GHM report on these figures my question is what is GHM data source? I have never seen a demographic claim like this by a serious NGO with no source or methodology. They cite no study, no method. It seems very exaggerated claim, and not serious.
I also note a search of the GHM pages returns many documents which they have written refering to "Pirin" "Aegean" and "Vardar" "Macedonia. People who follow the history of the region know these are expressions dating back to Macedonian nationalist calls for "uniting" the various Macedonias, including the Greek and Bulgarian regions. I always check who pays the bills and GHM is also affiliated and receives finance support for Macedonia nationists groups in Canada, which really makes me question their credibility. George Soros, who is a massive investor in Macedonia and has no meanigul business in Greece, also bankrolls this group.
Looking at wikipedia's listings on demographics in various Balkan countries, I see the demographics for the country of Macedonia page only uses their official government claims as well as the CIA fact book (based on government claims). One can find NGO's claiming the estimated Albanian minority in Macedonia as high as 40% with 30% being the number most cited. Yet the Wikipedia page cites the (obviosuly low) 17% government number only. The same is the case for Bulgaria and Albania.
I think in the case of these GHM numbers we are looking are the vestiges of very old style Balkan defintions, as well as an expansive concept of ethnicity vs nationality, which is very strange for a contempary NGO to be flogging. I think they are giving a number of possible descendents of Slavic populations (which could also be persons with a Bulgarian parent and not particularly a Slavic Macedonian one) and attempting to create a minority issue where there is not a serious problem.
In my experience you can look around in Greece and see in the faces many different ethnic sources, but the implication that so many persons think of themselves as a minority is absurd to anyone who has spent time in Greece. In terms of speakers of Macedonian, the tiny number I met even in the areas with a historic Slavic minority were grandfathers, their grown children thnk of themselves as Greek and are excepted as such.
One should be cautious about relativism, but in many cases, especially with nation states, it gives one perspective .The various nationalists from the newly freed states seem to have made a mess of the Wikipedia pages on the Balkans. But in this case it is clear Wikipedia is in danger of becoming absurd as a source, by ascribing to the country with the most modern, stable and developed sense of identity (as well as for certain the best and most fair legal and civil rights system)) in the Balkans to seem like the one with the biggest problem. DaveHM 08:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
THe Greek legal system is as corrupt as any in the Balkans, which is a disgrace for an EU country. I suggest user DaveHM keeps his nationalistic bias under control. The identity issue is highly contested for Northern Greece, and is not open to contestation from tourists in Greece.-- 87.202.18.205 11:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with these numbers??? 128.000 People speak Turkish and 180.000 speak Slavic??? 600.000 speak Cretan?? LOL the numbers are pure fiction i have many friends from Crete and none speaks Cretan as defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Greek Yes they use some basic words but not pure Cretan. Same For Slavic, if you speak a word or two like someone previously mentioned and you hear the language from your grandparents or something does not mean you are a speaker. These facts are dangerously inaccurate and maybe biased. Soathana ( talk) 11:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Also i must insist that no facts is always better than wrong facts if someone else believes these numbers are OK could travel to macedonia and Check if there is a city anywhere the size of Larissa speaking slavic. Good luck. Soathana ( talk) 11:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to say thanks to DaveHM for his comment. It truly grasps the essence of the disputes in here especially in regards to the frequent demonizing of Greece in the topic of our history of identitarian politics when it comes to minorities. We have come to a point where reality is disregarded for the sake of different POVs and we don't even realize it anymore just because such views have rooted themselves quite well by now and sadly, this is becoming more and more clear in every articles you look when it comes to such topics. Lmagoutas ( talk) 09:04, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I removed the section of VPRC cause it is based on info from a company, and is no way an academic source, thus not reliable. i was not even able to see the percentances, that were claimed in the edit, in the site of that company, since the data are only available after paying for them and after requesting them from the company. info sourced by profit-making websites should not be here. lastly, i do not know who had added that, or if he/she had in mind that there might be a copyright violation. in the company website is stated (in greek): 'Δεν επιτρέπεται η δημοσιοποίηση δεδομένων με οποιοδήποτε τρόπο και σε οποιοδήποτε Μέσο Μαζικής Επικοινωνίας χωρίς τη γραπτή έγκριση της εταιρείας VPRC'. which means (in brief) that the information should not be presented in anyway, but only under the written permission of the company VPRC.i guess that these reasons justify totally my changes. -- Hectorian 06:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't understand from the article whether there is ethnic similarity between the ethnic Greeks of today and the Greeks of the classical period? If so, does this similarity have scientific proof (D.N.A)? In other words, are the current Greeks direct descendants of the Ancients, holding genetic similarity? Tal :) 14:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
quotes from wikipedia articles:
Greek Ethnic : The Greeks are an ethnic group mostly found in the southern Balkan peninsula of southeastern Europe and are primarily associated with the Greek language.
Demographics of Greece: Some of the ancestors of those Vlach settlers survive until today, but only as linguistic groups of purely Greek ethnic identity
Eastern Romance languages: Vlach language
I intend on removing this association of Vlachs with "pure Greek ethnic identity". my reasons, since Vlach language is romance, and Greek ethnic is asociated with greek language, then Vlach "linguistic group" cant have pure Greek ethnic identity. if i fail to see the meaning of "pure Greek ethnic identity" in relation with Vlachs, then please someone clear things up so i wont make unnecessary edits Criztu 18:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
quote from article " Ancestors of these Vlachs survive until today, linguistically assimilated though.". since Vlach language is romance, and Vlachs still speak it, i fail to see how the Vlach language is assimilated (i assume by the greek lang). Cant u rephrase to some "they see themselves as greek citisens", or "they identify themselves as greeks speaking a Vlach language" ? I assume they dont see themselves as "romanians" Criztu 17:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
to: Minority Ethnic and Linguistic Groups "According to the report by Greek Helsinki Monitor and Minority Rights Group - Greece [1] from 1999, in Greece there are various autochtonous minority groups, but its estimations are considered biased since there are based on estimations of questionable validation:
The report also mentions 700,000 immigrants (mostly illegal) and taking them into account, concludes that, among the residents of Greece, 7% have a non-Greek national identity (but less than 1% are autochtonous) and another 7% have a Greek national identity but also an ethnolinguistic and/or religious specificity.
In a survey conducted by the VPRC Institute in 2001 the following results were recorded:
The survey mentioned that most of the respondants were using Greek language in everyday life."
from: http://experts.about.com/e/d/de/Demographics_of_Greece.htm http://www.minelres.lv/reports/greece/greece_NGO.htm
See my comment above, editted one month before... -- Hectorian 17:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Currently I've protected this page from editing for one week; please note that edit wars can be quite disruptive to the integrity of the site, and that dispute resolution is often a better solution in the long run. With that in mind, I'd appreciate it if interested parties would instead discuss these changes here. If you need, feel free to request mediation from MedCom or MedCab. – Luna Santin ( talk) 09:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Apparently, there is nothing to stop "academic literature" from manipulating actualities by downplaying or grossly ignoring the existence of Greeks adopting and using non-Greek languages. I bet that to authors/editors like Trubeta and Voss, a Greek that doesn't speak katharevousa must technically belong to some non-Greek "minority". In emphasizing this kind of post-modern "logic", Wikipedia is fast becoming a junkyard of dubious infotainment. After having read "The Six Rotten Pillars of Wikipedia", I'm beginning to realize that this so-called "encyclopedia" is nothing but a long-winded fap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.188.254 ( talk) 21:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I looked under ethnic groups minorities and I laughed so hard I pissed my self. Russians? Albanians? Georgians? This articles is listing immigrants who came to Greece the past 11 years ago as ethnic minorities. What kind of bullshit is this? If thats the case why don't you add the 30.000 Pakis, Nigerians, Filipino and other legal and illegal workers under "ethnic minorities" and then go to the United states make up and add Mexican ethnic minority, and make an article about the ethnic Greek minority of New York and the American occupation of Astoria NY and the historic city of Greek town in Chicago.. LOL Clowns, as a wikipedia reader I expect this stupidity to be corrected... ASAP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.53.224.61 ( talk) 03:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Demographics of Greece's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "OECD":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 00:11, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
1) In the paragraph about ethnic groups , it is used as a link this site: https://joshuaproject.net/. I removed Arvanites from the list of ethnic groups because, the previous writter did not use the given information as the link is concerned. If someone notice carefully at the site ,Arvanites are be noticed as a Indigenous People group.link: https://joshuaproject.net/countries/GR So, we cannot put them in a list with other ethnic groups like Bulgarians,Indians,Egyptians etc. We have to understand that there is a diference between these two terms.We don't have to confuse the indigenous groups which are native and they have totally ethnic conscience with the foreign ethic groups.
2) I removed totally the passage from the link Minority Rights Group beacause it is not a certified organization ,thus it is not reliable and it can not be a resaurce.
3) Arvanitika is with no doubt an oral dialect. There are not documents which can prove the language's existing.So all the information we have about this dialect , is empirical or derives from empirical case studies. So it is frequently argued that we can not confuse this dialect with other foreign languages that are spoken in Greece.If someone thinks that has official data or meticulous numbers about the people who speak this dialect he may be Pythea and he surely has diviner's abilities.Unless he have to do with someone who wants to pervert and mislead the readers of wikipedia. Thus, I removed this dialect from the list of other languages because it is not literally and scientifically correct. The dialect was replaced to the list native languages.
Dear readers , there is no one document,or reliable link to prove that there is an ethnic group as Arvanites.It is irresponsible to be shown by this free site those irreliable information. It is a common belief that it is out obligation to inform correctly without misleadings a major percent of our society by writting a post.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.243.122 ( talk) 08:43, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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To the editors keep blanking the statistics - you keep edit-warring after you had been asked to explain your removal. I have already attempted to use the talk page but my comment was deleted. You continue to edit-war and long edit-warring without any attempt to discuss is DISRUPTIVE. Judist ( talk) 11:08, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
User:199.7.157.82 is changing statistics and doesn't seem to know that other Wikipedia articles are not regarded as reliable sources on Wikipedia. I have reverted his changes a few times. User doesn't seem to want to take his issues to the talkpage. He has been asked to do so repeatedly. We have a worrying amount of conflicts like this going on in Macedoniain Greek controversies at the time. Please take your issue here! Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 22:48, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Can you please explain why you insist on adding an edit which includes a source recognized as unreliable since 2005 (see section "100,000-200,000 Slavic speakers in Macedonia" in this page)? Everything was fine until a biased user "Judist" added this unreliable source again on the 20th of May. Why do you support such an edit? I left a message in your talk page about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:B410:5700:E5:BD2B:70B7:BE19 ( talk) 02:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
I added a note on the source. Macedonian, a Greek ( talk) 11:52, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
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In this article there's a link to "Minority Rights Group International" where a group of immigrants is labeled 'minority'. If groups of immigrants are to be considered minorities that should be true about all of them, not just Albanians. In the article 'Demographics of Germany' they don't even mention minorities (just recognized minority languages). Apostolos Papadimitriou ( talk) 19:04, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I have reinstated the text according to the sources (and made som minor corrections).
@ NickTheRipper: As I explained the last time you removed the numbers 100,000-200,000 (0.91-1.82%) in February, this is what the source says, the source being Minority Rights Group International, currently note 24 in the article. I also pointed to the source in my edit summary yesterday, and still you claim that "This is not supported anywhere in the source". If you would you be so kind to look at the source, you will see that all the numbers in the table are from that source. I am fully aware that the high number for ethnic Macedonians is controversial, and that is also the reason for giving an alternative estimate. The source is quoted (with percentages) for all other groups, therefore you cannot choose to replace one of the numbers with another source. That is at best syntehsis, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. Bringing in another source for the lower number is, of course, fine. -- T*U ( talk) 11:56, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
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Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. No matter what governments decide, we all know that 'Macedonian' is a word applicable only to Greeks. Therefore, saying 'Macedonian' minority when there's an ACTUAL Macedonian (Greek) population is at least misleading and confusing. Onoufrios d ( talk) 19:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Why recently added content was deleted. Please, explain this action. Jingiby ( talk) 18:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
—— Hello, not sure if I’m doing this correctly as I’m new to Wikipedia editing. But reading this article, in the first sentence, it describes this article as dealing with the population of the Greek peninsula. Should it not read “Greek peninsula and its islands”? It seems a significant percentage of Greece’s population is found on the many islands. Y Seren Wib ( talk) 15:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
I find that the Newsweek article numbered "31" in references is kinda biased when it comes to understanding the situation of minorities in Greece. It is very much identical to many Macedonian propaganda articles that want to present Greece as an ethnostate of some sort. I think this is also especially true when it comes to the rhetoric the the person uses regarding the naming of Macedonia that is severely biased against Greece. At a point the person being interviewed even tries to compare the Macedonia naming dispute to Luxemburg with Beligium as if those two are in any way similar. Anyway I am no expert on this but more often than not I see more and more questionable articles popping that push more and more of the Macedonian viewpoint while misrepresenting Greece. I definitely don't think Greece is on the right in quite a few topics in regards to minorities but I also certainly don't see merit in pushing ignorant POV's in such complicated matters. I would be glad if someone was to look into the article and determine if it is appropriate. Lmagoutas ( talk) 08:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Who is the source about deaths and birth about 2023 statistics? Alex1991~elwiki ( talk) 06:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
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I'm sick of all this Greek propaganda that Greece is supposedly 98% Greek! We all know there are large minorities in Greece, its not going to cause the sky to fall in if you admit it. Greece is flush with Macedonians, Turks, Albanians, Jews, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma and who knows how many Middle Easterners! How do you expect a country that was created out of imperialism and territorial expansion not to have minorities??
User:NikosP keeps removing information about the Greek Helsinki Monitor Report. His summaries are "first deal with the millions of Belarusians, Germans and Ukrainians in Poland, then come to try to villify Greece" and "revert soiling campaign by user Borachek". This suggests that in his opinion any mention about ethnic, linguistic or religious minorities in Greece is "villifying and soiling Greece". This in turn makes me think that his reversions are made from a Greek nationalist standpoint, which denies the presence of ethnic minorities in Greece, considered "impurities". But maybe I am wrong. I kindly ask user NikosP to explain his reason for deletion of the part about the report. Boraczek 08:41, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi! The Report says: "Local authorities have acknowledge the presence of some 100,000 “Slavophones,” while researchers have given twice as high as estimate (200,000). However, those with a Macedonian national identity can be estimated to between 10,000-30,000. Indeed, the political party “Rainbow” which was created in 1994 and has campaigned for the recognition of a national Macedonian minority, received 7,300 votes in 1994 and 5,000 in 1999, two elections it contested alone: these figures correspond to some 7,000-10,000 citizens of all (not just voting) ages. One can estimate that besides this “hard core” there may be other citizens voting for mainstream parties that also espouse this identity, hence the above estimate."
About the numbers of slavophones:
"While researchers": who are these researchers, anyway?
The latest research about languages in Greece is one from September 2001 made by [ V-PRC] (a research and survey company trusted by all media companies in Greece) for a major newspaper. This report [2] found the following numbers of slavic macedonian speakers: 5.6% in West Macedonia, 1.6% in Central Macedonia (except Thessaloniki) and 1.9% in Thessaloniki prefecture. Far from the "10%" in the whole Macedonia.
"can be estimated": how is the estimation made? The number of voters of a political party does not make a nation. The Rainbow Party except of its minority campaign is also a far-left party. Considering the number of communist voters in the area (the largest in Greece), how are they so sure that many of the voters supported only its minority campaign and did not see it as an altenative to the KKE (The year 1994 tells as something. It's after the alliance of the KKE with the right-wing New Democracy in 1989 which dissapointed many of its supporters). At that time the Rainbow Party was allied with another left-wing party the OAKKE.
So where is the scientific approach to all of these? Now, about the neutral approach on the subject from the Greek Helsinki Group Monitor. The greek organisation is rarely considered seriously in Greece. In no way should be considered neutral and third party organisation. It's president is also the president of the Homesexuals Association (so he is not a third party or neutral on these matters when it comes to GHRM, how neutral can it be?) and oups! the secretary general is a member of the OAKKE, so we have a political connection here. That's all about the neutrality of this organisation...
So, how do you decide that the numbers of the report should be mentioned (when we have a more scientific inquiry) and what would you say if we had 2-3 or even 10 different reports from other NGOs? — Ger ak i 2005-07-9 T 18:25 Z
At first, I hope that you didn't misunderstand my objections on the persons of the GHM. I sympathise both homosexuals and communists. What I want to say is that if the don't even try to show the are neutral (resigning from one of their two positions for example) probably they aren't. Would you trust the GHM report if the president was the Archbishop and secretary general the head of police? Probably no. The point here is because it's an easy thing to form an organisation and say whatever, it is hard to say which resource is valid enough to be cited. I can show you dozens of reports where half of the citizens of Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria are of greek origin, and some of them signed by university professors. Do we have to mention them on the articles for Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria? No. Because none of them is a result of a scientific survey but nationalistic propaganda. It's simple common sense. This is the case with the GHM report. There is no clue how they collected the numbers. They could easily put half or double and there would be no difference on the credibility of the report because there is NO credibility. So, I prefer the V-PRC results even with less accuracy, instead of the arbitrary estimations of the GHM report. Probably you'll say that we only cite the report without any claims that is valid. But when someone writes in a local newspaper "The Pope is gay" and you refuse it in New York Times, you will have more believers than not paying attention at all. A citation from wikipedia has a lot of weight, so we must take care of where it is given. — Ger ak i 2005-07-13 T 22:17 Z
100,000-200,000 Slavic speakers in Macedonia! Come on! :) Statistics like that make Helsinki Monitor untrustworthy. Maybe in that statistic people who know the word "voda" are considered Slavic speakers.
I suppose there are 100,000-200,000 people who's grandparents where Slavic speakers, but no way so many spekers nowadays. --
Mik2
19:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I think that this estimate is likely only if we consider slavic speakers also those whos' parents are speakers. Those people therefore have some experience of that language, can understand some things, but they cannot be conciderd speakers themselfs since they can only understand.
A rought estimate:Slavic is spoken in Macedonia mainly in Florina and Edessa perfectures, and to a lesser extent to Kilkis perfecture. In other places there are only a few vilages with slavic speakers. The total polulation of those 3 perefectures is 55,210+148,190+91,828=295,228 people. If we accept that there are 200.000 slavic speakers, then the 2/3 of the total population speaks slavic. This cannot be right simply, but not only, because only a handfull of people aged less that 30 speaks that language now. Therefore, to "reach" the number of 200.000 almost everyone aged more that 30 should speak slavic. This obviously cannot be true. The 100.000 limit is more possible, but also exagerated.
I cannot estimate myself a number. From my personal experience (One from my grandfathers is from Edessa, Pella and my mothers family from Florina) I may say that maybe 1/5 of the population of Pella speaks slavic now (30.000) and 1/5 in Florina (10.000). Taking those into acount we may say that there are about 40.000 slavic speakers in those perfectures. In Kilkis there live alot of Pontic greeks. Maybe half of the population speaks or understands Pontic. Also there are at least 5.000 Meglenitic speakers. There are only a few slavic speaking vilages there now. But i have no personal experience from there, so i could suggest a persentage.
These estimates are personal and I wouldn't bet on them. But I have the feeling that they are close to real numbers.-- Mik2 10:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S. In the 1951 greek census, the last that included statistics about languages, there were 41,017 speakers of the slavic language. If there where 40.000 people then, there couldn;t be 100.000 or 200.000 speakers today. Posibly alot where afraid to answer, but from 41.000 to 200.000 there is a big distanse. And we are talking about 1951, not 2005.Mik2
I think the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) numbers need to be removed from the text altogether. They are not simply a range of high to low but a clear hyperbole. It doesn't warrant argument but amazement.
Having followed this issue closeley as I had the chance to work there from 2000 through 2003 with my business and family interests taking me all around the northern Greece region. Two of my grandparents, who were not ethnic Greek or Slavic were from there, so I was often looking for evidence of the various cultures. It is very clear that northern Greece today, including its Macedonia area, is strikingly homogenious. There were areas of large minorities and more importantly of ambigious ethnicity, but the first the mutual mass population transfers and second in the post WWII period the modern European non devisive concept of ethnicity has taken hold.
I am familiar with GMH. As two of my family were Greek Jews I initially followed their analysis of anti-Semitism. But it was clear to me that the GMH was engagining in both a lot of exaggeration, where they really made minor and vestigial prejudice sound like a huge deal in Greece. Having lived in France, Italy, Spain and Bulgaria I found their assertions of some sharp and broad anti-Semitism in Greece to be uninformed and really a problem in search of a client.
Reading the GHM report on these figures my question is what is GHM data source? I have never seen a demographic claim like this by a serious NGO with no source or methodology. They cite no study, no method. It seems very exaggerated claim, and not serious.
I also note a search of the GHM pages returns many documents which they have written refering to "Pirin" "Aegean" and "Vardar" "Macedonia. People who follow the history of the region know these are expressions dating back to Macedonian nationalist calls for "uniting" the various Macedonias, including the Greek and Bulgarian regions. I always check who pays the bills and GHM is also affiliated and receives finance support for Macedonia nationists groups in Canada, which really makes me question their credibility. George Soros, who is a massive investor in Macedonia and has no meanigul business in Greece, also bankrolls this group.
Looking at wikipedia's listings on demographics in various Balkan countries, I see the demographics for the country of Macedonia page only uses their official government claims as well as the CIA fact book (based on government claims). One can find NGO's claiming the estimated Albanian minority in Macedonia as high as 40% with 30% being the number most cited. Yet the Wikipedia page cites the (obviosuly low) 17% government number only. The same is the case for Bulgaria and Albania.
I think in the case of these GHM numbers we are looking are the vestiges of very old style Balkan defintions, as well as an expansive concept of ethnicity vs nationality, which is very strange for a contempary NGO to be flogging. I think they are giving a number of possible descendents of Slavic populations (which could also be persons with a Bulgarian parent and not particularly a Slavic Macedonian one) and attempting to create a minority issue where there is not a serious problem.
In my experience you can look around in Greece and see in the faces many different ethnic sources, but the implication that so many persons think of themselves as a minority is absurd to anyone who has spent time in Greece. In terms of speakers of Macedonian, the tiny number I met even in the areas with a historic Slavic minority were grandfathers, their grown children thnk of themselves as Greek and are excepted as such.
One should be cautious about relativism, but in many cases, especially with nation states, it gives one perspective .The various nationalists from the newly freed states seem to have made a mess of the Wikipedia pages on the Balkans. But in this case it is clear Wikipedia is in danger of becoming absurd as a source, by ascribing to the country with the most modern, stable and developed sense of identity (as well as for certain the best and most fair legal and civil rights system)) in the Balkans to seem like the one with the biggest problem. DaveHM 08:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
THe Greek legal system is as corrupt as any in the Balkans, which is a disgrace for an EU country. I suggest user DaveHM keeps his nationalistic bias under control. The identity issue is highly contested for Northern Greece, and is not open to contestation from tourists in Greece.-- 87.202.18.205 11:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with these numbers??? 128.000 People speak Turkish and 180.000 speak Slavic??? 600.000 speak Cretan?? LOL the numbers are pure fiction i have many friends from Crete and none speaks Cretan as defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Greek Yes they use some basic words but not pure Cretan. Same For Slavic, if you speak a word or two like someone previously mentioned and you hear the language from your grandparents or something does not mean you are a speaker. These facts are dangerously inaccurate and maybe biased. Soathana ( talk) 11:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Also i must insist that no facts is always better than wrong facts if someone else believes these numbers are OK could travel to macedonia and Check if there is a city anywhere the size of Larissa speaking slavic. Good luck. Soathana ( talk) 11:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to say thanks to DaveHM for his comment. It truly grasps the essence of the disputes in here especially in regards to the frequent demonizing of Greece in the topic of our history of identitarian politics when it comes to minorities. We have come to a point where reality is disregarded for the sake of different POVs and we don't even realize it anymore just because such views have rooted themselves quite well by now and sadly, this is becoming more and more clear in every articles you look when it comes to such topics. Lmagoutas ( talk) 09:04, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I removed the section of VPRC cause it is based on info from a company, and is no way an academic source, thus not reliable. i was not even able to see the percentances, that were claimed in the edit, in the site of that company, since the data are only available after paying for them and after requesting them from the company. info sourced by profit-making websites should not be here. lastly, i do not know who had added that, or if he/she had in mind that there might be a copyright violation. in the company website is stated (in greek): 'Δεν επιτρέπεται η δημοσιοποίηση δεδομένων με οποιοδήποτε τρόπο και σε οποιοδήποτε Μέσο Μαζικής Επικοινωνίας χωρίς τη γραπτή έγκριση της εταιρείας VPRC'. which means (in brief) that the information should not be presented in anyway, but only under the written permission of the company VPRC.i guess that these reasons justify totally my changes. -- Hectorian 06:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't understand from the article whether there is ethnic similarity between the ethnic Greeks of today and the Greeks of the classical period? If so, does this similarity have scientific proof (D.N.A)? In other words, are the current Greeks direct descendants of the Ancients, holding genetic similarity? Tal :) 14:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
quotes from wikipedia articles:
Greek Ethnic : The Greeks are an ethnic group mostly found in the southern Balkan peninsula of southeastern Europe and are primarily associated with the Greek language.
Demographics of Greece: Some of the ancestors of those Vlach settlers survive until today, but only as linguistic groups of purely Greek ethnic identity
Eastern Romance languages: Vlach language
I intend on removing this association of Vlachs with "pure Greek ethnic identity". my reasons, since Vlach language is romance, and Greek ethnic is asociated with greek language, then Vlach "linguistic group" cant have pure Greek ethnic identity. if i fail to see the meaning of "pure Greek ethnic identity" in relation with Vlachs, then please someone clear things up so i wont make unnecessary edits Criztu 18:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
quote from article " Ancestors of these Vlachs survive until today, linguistically assimilated though.". since Vlach language is romance, and Vlachs still speak it, i fail to see how the Vlach language is assimilated (i assume by the greek lang). Cant u rephrase to some "they see themselves as greek citisens", or "they identify themselves as greeks speaking a Vlach language" ? I assume they dont see themselves as "romanians" Criztu 17:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
to: Minority Ethnic and Linguistic Groups "According to the report by Greek Helsinki Monitor and Minority Rights Group - Greece [1] from 1999, in Greece there are various autochtonous minority groups, but its estimations are considered biased since there are based on estimations of questionable validation:
The report also mentions 700,000 immigrants (mostly illegal) and taking them into account, concludes that, among the residents of Greece, 7% have a non-Greek national identity (but less than 1% are autochtonous) and another 7% have a Greek national identity but also an ethnolinguistic and/or religious specificity.
In a survey conducted by the VPRC Institute in 2001 the following results were recorded:
The survey mentioned that most of the respondants were using Greek language in everyday life."
from: http://experts.about.com/e/d/de/Demographics_of_Greece.htm http://www.minelres.lv/reports/greece/greece_NGO.htm
See my comment above, editted one month before... -- Hectorian 17:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Currently I've protected this page from editing for one week; please note that edit wars can be quite disruptive to the integrity of the site, and that dispute resolution is often a better solution in the long run. With that in mind, I'd appreciate it if interested parties would instead discuss these changes here. If you need, feel free to request mediation from MedCom or MedCab. – Luna Santin ( talk) 09:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Apparently, there is nothing to stop "academic literature" from manipulating actualities by downplaying or grossly ignoring the existence of Greeks adopting and using non-Greek languages. I bet that to authors/editors like Trubeta and Voss, a Greek that doesn't speak katharevousa must technically belong to some non-Greek "minority". In emphasizing this kind of post-modern "logic", Wikipedia is fast becoming a junkyard of dubious infotainment. After having read "The Six Rotten Pillars of Wikipedia", I'm beginning to realize that this so-called "encyclopedia" is nothing but a long-winded fap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.188.254 ( talk) 21:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I looked under ethnic groups minorities and I laughed so hard I pissed my self. Russians? Albanians? Georgians? This articles is listing immigrants who came to Greece the past 11 years ago as ethnic minorities. What kind of bullshit is this? If thats the case why don't you add the 30.000 Pakis, Nigerians, Filipino and other legal and illegal workers under "ethnic minorities" and then go to the United states make up and add Mexican ethnic minority, and make an article about the ethnic Greek minority of New York and the American occupation of Astoria NY and the historic city of Greek town in Chicago.. LOL Clowns, as a wikipedia reader I expect this stupidity to be corrected... ASAP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.53.224.61 ( talk) 03:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Demographics of Greece's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "OECD":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 00:11, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
1) In the paragraph about ethnic groups , it is used as a link this site: https://joshuaproject.net/. I removed Arvanites from the list of ethnic groups because, the previous writter did not use the given information as the link is concerned. If someone notice carefully at the site ,Arvanites are be noticed as a Indigenous People group.link: https://joshuaproject.net/countries/GR So, we cannot put them in a list with other ethnic groups like Bulgarians,Indians,Egyptians etc. We have to understand that there is a diference between these two terms.We don't have to confuse the indigenous groups which are native and they have totally ethnic conscience with the foreign ethic groups.
2) I removed totally the passage from the link Minority Rights Group beacause it is not a certified organization ,thus it is not reliable and it can not be a resaurce.
3) Arvanitika is with no doubt an oral dialect. There are not documents which can prove the language's existing.So all the information we have about this dialect , is empirical or derives from empirical case studies. So it is frequently argued that we can not confuse this dialect with other foreign languages that are spoken in Greece.If someone thinks that has official data or meticulous numbers about the people who speak this dialect he may be Pythea and he surely has diviner's abilities.Unless he have to do with someone who wants to pervert and mislead the readers of wikipedia. Thus, I removed this dialect from the list of other languages because it is not literally and scientifically correct. The dialect was replaced to the list native languages.
Dear readers , there is no one document,or reliable link to prove that there is an ethnic group as Arvanites.It is irresponsible to be shown by this free site those irreliable information. It is a common belief that it is out obligation to inform correctly without misleadings a major percent of our society by writting a post.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.243.122 ( talk) 08:43, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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To the editors keep blanking the statistics - you keep edit-warring after you had been asked to explain your removal. I have already attempted to use the talk page but my comment was deleted. You continue to edit-war and long edit-warring without any attempt to discuss is DISRUPTIVE. Judist ( talk) 11:08, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
User:199.7.157.82 is changing statistics and doesn't seem to know that other Wikipedia articles are not regarded as reliable sources on Wikipedia. I have reverted his changes a few times. User doesn't seem to want to take his issues to the talkpage. He has been asked to do so repeatedly. We have a worrying amount of conflicts like this going on in Macedoniain Greek controversies at the time. Please take your issue here! Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 22:48, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Can you please explain why you insist on adding an edit which includes a source recognized as unreliable since 2005 (see section "100,000-200,000 Slavic speakers in Macedonia" in this page)? Everything was fine until a biased user "Judist" added this unreliable source again on the 20th of May. Why do you support such an edit? I left a message in your talk page about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:B410:5700:E5:BD2B:70B7:BE19 ( talk) 02:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
I added a note on the source. Macedonian, a Greek ( talk) 11:52, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
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In this article there's a link to "Minority Rights Group International" where a group of immigrants is labeled 'minority'. If groups of immigrants are to be considered minorities that should be true about all of them, not just Albanians. In the article 'Demographics of Germany' they don't even mention minorities (just recognized minority languages). Apostolos Papadimitriou ( talk) 19:04, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I have reinstated the text according to the sources (and made som minor corrections).
@ NickTheRipper: As I explained the last time you removed the numbers 100,000-200,000 (0.91-1.82%) in February, this is what the source says, the source being Minority Rights Group International, currently note 24 in the article. I also pointed to the source in my edit summary yesterday, and still you claim that "This is not supported anywhere in the source". If you would you be so kind to look at the source, you will see that all the numbers in the table are from that source. I am fully aware that the high number for ethnic Macedonians is controversial, and that is also the reason for giving an alternative estimate. The source is quoted (with percentages) for all other groups, therefore you cannot choose to replace one of the numbers with another source. That is at best syntehsis, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. Bringing in another source for the lower number is, of course, fine. -- T*U ( talk) 11:56, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
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Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. No matter what governments decide, we all know that 'Macedonian' is a word applicable only to Greeks. Therefore, saying 'Macedonian' minority when there's an ACTUAL Macedonian (Greek) population is at least misleading and confusing. Onoufrios d ( talk) 19:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Why recently added content was deleted. Please, explain this action. Jingiby ( talk) 18:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
—— Hello, not sure if I’m doing this correctly as I’m new to Wikipedia editing. But reading this article, in the first sentence, it describes this article as dealing with the population of the Greek peninsula. Should it not read “Greek peninsula and its islands”? It seems a significant percentage of Greece’s population is found on the many islands. Y Seren Wib ( talk) 15:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
I find that the Newsweek article numbered "31" in references is kinda biased when it comes to understanding the situation of minorities in Greece. It is very much identical to many Macedonian propaganda articles that want to present Greece as an ethnostate of some sort. I think this is also especially true when it comes to the rhetoric the the person uses regarding the naming of Macedonia that is severely biased against Greece. At a point the person being interviewed even tries to compare the Macedonia naming dispute to Luxemburg with Beligium as if those two are in any way similar. Anyway I am no expert on this but more often than not I see more and more questionable articles popping that push more and more of the Macedonian viewpoint while misrepresenting Greece. I definitely don't think Greece is on the right in quite a few topics in regards to minorities but I also certainly don't see merit in pushing ignorant POV's in such complicated matters. I would be glad if someone was to look into the article and determine if it is appropriate. Lmagoutas ( talk) 08:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Who is the source about deaths and birth about 2023 statistics? Alex1991~elwiki ( talk) 06:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)