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Why change the title: because historians have changed in the last 5-10 years. The new monographs and tectbooks do not use the D-R terminology. Users who have a current textbook will be confused and that is a bad thing for Wiki. Our best asset is that we keep current-- unlike paper encyclopedias whose articles are often 10 or 20 years old. Rjensen 21:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Were there any other Democratic-Republican Parties? If not, there's no need to add "United States" in front. -- Jiang | Talk 12:21, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It is unnecessarily inaccurate to refer to this party as the "Democratic-Republican" party. It was called the Republican party from its formation under Thomas Jefferson until the split in the party during the time of Andrew Jackson (in the 1820s). Only then did there exist a party called the "Democratic-Republican" party (as opposed to the faction headed by John Quincy Adams, the National Republicans). And this name did not last long, quickly being shortened to the Democratic party.
It is much more accurate to call this party the "Republican" party and then set a footnote that says that this is not the same as the modern Republican party. -- acsenray | Talk 17:30, 7 Feb 2004 (EST)
Naming this article "Republican Party" or something similar would be a violation of Wikipedia naming conventions. Most people know of the party as the "Democratic-Republican Party." Wikipedia's naming convention's page says, "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Another way to summarize the overall principle of Wikipedia's naming conventions: Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists."
[2] - JP
Jefferson's inaugural address includes "...we are all Republicans...I don't think there's a better source on how Jefferson saw his politial affiliation than Jefferson himself. Jmorello
The page says that the Federalist party has no ties to any modern party, but this is not true. The Federalists and the Modern Repbublican party shared a handful of viewpoints: both favored tax cuts and other financial benefits for the upper class and small buisness, in the interest of stimulating the economy and creating jobs. The Federalists were more conservative in general, they believed that the government was to be supported regardless of your own personal preference.
I am not saying that the Federalists and the Republicans are the same party, or even that the Republican Party is a descendant of the Federalist party. I am saying that it is extreme to say that the Federalist party has no ties whatsoever to the modern Republican party. At the very least, they were both the conservative parties of their times. The page should be changed to say that there is a very loose resemblance between the Federalists and the Republicans. -- BMS 02:50, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What happened to this text:
Why was it deleted from the opening section? -- JW1805 (Talk) 04:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
At the Democratic Party's Web site, the Party claims its beginning in 1792. [4] I believe this article as it stands now trifles with history. It should at least acknowledge that the Democratic Party believes it is the inheritor of the old Democratic-Republican. Most American historians agree. I think it's rather weasely to claim that both parties have an equal claim on a heritage from the Democratic-Republican Party. GriotGriot
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help) On page 212, it reads: "In the 1820's, after the death of the Federalists (see p. 188), the Republican party split to form two new parties: the Democrats and the National Republicans (renamed the Whigs in the 1830's)." Thus I have at least one counterexample to your claim that "pratically [sic] every American history book traces the beginning of today's Democratic Party in the Demo-Repub Party".
Let's try to clear up some confusion here. First, a political party web site is a poor source for scholarly information, because all political parties have a vested interest in putting themselves in the best possible light. Second, it is incorrect to say that the Democratic-Republican Party (a.k.a. the original Republican Party) IS today's Democratic Party, because the old Republican Party split up. However, it is correct to say that the Democratic Party and the National Republican Party were directly descended from the old Republican Party. (E.g. I am directly descended from my parents. I have a sister. She is also directly descended from my parents. The fact that my sister is directly descended from my parents in no way diminishes the fact that I am as well.) However, the National Republican Party didn't survive. Only the Democratic Party survived. Therefore, the Democratic Party is the only party today that is directly descended from the old Republican Party. Instead of disproving this point, the quote above from The National Experience: A History of the United States actually reinforces it. - JP
I would suggest that today's Democratic Party, with its emphasis on big government to solve the world's problems (which Jefferson despised) really began in the 1930's under Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Yes the ideals of the Democratic-Republican party are contradictory to those of the modern democratic party. The modern democratic party puts a large amount of power into the government and redistributes wealth and property, these are measures contradictory to the ideals of a limited government. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, its founders, were of the primary writers of the constitution. The origional US constitution, sharing the exact ideals of the democratic-republican party(you may note our government is a democratic republic), values the right of property considerably more then the modern democratic party. The beginning of the democratic party was with Andrew Jackson, he even made the modern symbol. He was considered stubborn and someone called him a jackass in his campaign, he liked it so much he made it the party's symbol. -Uvirith
Political parties do not change overtime, the status of whether they are 'liberal' or 'conservative' changes based on what the status quo of the current government is, but their ideals remain the same. At the time slavery was a problem, the republicans were liberals because their ideals were against slavery and as it was an idea they wanted to change the government with, it was a liberal idea, but then once slavery was abolished, it was the status quo and was now a conservative ideal. In modern day politics the republicans are liberal in some things and conservative on others, they wish to make abortion illegal which is a conservative idea, but they also want to eliminate gun control, and make marijuana and prostitution legal which are all liberal ideas by the current status quo. A political party's ideals will always remain the same over time, the difference is how they are classified, by either as liberal or conservative, a conservative ideal being one in the status quo and a liberal idea being one they would like to instill in the government. Their ideals never changed. Anti-elitism is a belief about social structure, but has nothing to do with government, unless, like the democrats you try to eradicate elitism by redistributing wealth through the government. However, The Democratic-Republican party did not go about it in this way, and didn't violate property rights. Andrew Jackson having created a new party in a time where the party still existed, obviously would not have created a new party from an existing party if he had ideals consistent to those of the Democratic-Republican party.
It should also be noted that Thomas Jefferson hated Andrew Jackson, he is quoted speaking of how he would greatly fear seeing a man who so blatantly abuses the powers of the constitution in office, even in the archaic political Arena, Andrew Jackson's party was a competitor to Jefferson's ideals.
Actually anti-elitism is contradictory to the ideals of the democratic party. The economic model of the democratic party is that of socialism, in a socialist society there is no means for the rich to generate wealth for the poor, the rich live in the lap of luxury sacrificing only enough to support the poor's ability to live, and the poor eat shit on a lowly level of society, never gaining the opportunity to become anything but poor.
I have never read anywhere of the Republican Party laying claim to a heritage spiritual or otherwise from the Democratic-Republican Party. Let's remember that the States Rights argument was made originally by Southern Democrats starting shortly before the Civil War, and that it was Southern Democrats who supported States Rights up until quite recently in the 1960s, when the Democratic Party abandoned States Rights and the Republican Party took up this mantle as part of is southern strategy.
I propose removing this section about both parties having an equal claim to the Demo-Republican Party until someone can demonstrate that the Republican Party makes this claim. I have never heard any Republicans make it. GriotGriot
You might ask why they took the name "Republican". Some of the GOP founders had been closely associated with Henry Clay, the Republican leader in Congress circa 1800-1820 who wanted to keep the name going. Gould in his standard history of the GOP (203): p 14 "Why did the name "Republican" gain such favor? [in 1854] Simply as a title it connected voters with the original political organization of Thomas Jefferson in the 1790s." Rjensen 08:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe that it is accurate to assert "only the Democratic Party has a direct link to the original Democratic-Republican Party, and indeed the party says on its official website that it was founded in 1792 by Thomas Jefferson.[1] The Democratic Party is often called 'the party of Jefferson'; whereas the Republican Party, which was founded in 1854, is called 'the party of Lincoln.'" No proof is provided to validate the claim. Just because the Democratic Party is referred to as "the party of Jefferson" does not mean that it in any way reflects the attitudes of Thomas Jefferson and the early Republicans. Furthermore, do you really believe that a party website is a legitimate source of information?
Oh no. Not again. This discussion has already been had twice, and at length. Twice. Let's leave as is. Griot 19:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh no. Not again. AGAIN. This subject has been rehashed many times. The Democratic Party has a genuine link to the old Democratic-Republican Party, and indeed the Demo Party believes strongly in this link. Why delete it from this article? Why go around and around this subject again? Griot 17:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I checked 8 current college US history textbooks that have online tables of contents 1 uses Dem-Rep (see #3) 6 use Republican 1 uses Jeffersonians (#6)
Longman: http://www.ablongman.com/catalog/academic/discipline/0,,72158,00.html
ch 5 has section Federalists and Republicans: The Rise of Political Parties.
ch 9. Revolutionary Legacies, 1789—1803. Competing Political Visions in the New Nation. Federalism and Democratic-Republicanism in Action.
ch 8 student guide Controversy between Federalist supporters of the national government and the emerging Jeffersonian Republican opposition first erupted over domestic policies designed to stabilize the nation's finances and promote its economic development. Those policies revealed deep-seated conflicts between economic interests and raised urgent questions of how the new constitution should be interpreted
ch 8 = Republican Ascendancy: The Jeffersonian Vision.
from Bedford St Martin http://www.bedfordstmartins.com/history/bcs/index.html
Jefferson's Agrarian Vision Hamilton's financial programs divided the Federalists into two irreconcilable political parties and led to the emergence of the Republicans, a group headed by Madison and Jefferson.
Republicans in Power 1800-1824 http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/roark/pages/bcs-main.asp?v=&s=09000&n=00010&i=09010.00&o= so the textbooks vote is 7-1 against D-R and 6-2 in favor of Republicans Rjensen 14:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
You are arguing convenience should be the best measure. That is certainly not the way to refine an encyclopedia. Skyemoor 01:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm late to the party, but I certainly agree with Rjensen. The term "Democratic-Republican" is mostly not used anymore, and is anachronistic. I'd also prefer Republican Party (Jeffersonian), or something similar. Even if we don't move the article, we certainly shouldn't use the term "Democratic-Republican" any more than is necessary for basic disambiguation. john k 17:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
If the Republican Party ceased to exist after 1816, why do so many sources say that various candidates from the 1820s and 1830s were Republicans or Democratic-Republicans? Are we sure the history of the party ends in 1816? Kaldari 19:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Some of this is discussed in the above sections, but I just wanted to summarize it separately here. I added a "Disputed" tag because some information in the article contradicted information given in the Encyclopedia Britannica. See the article here, which says that the party was originally called "Republican", but "... the Federalists soon branded Jefferson's followers “Democratic-Republicans,” attempting to link them with the excesses of the French Revolution, the Republicans officially adopted the derisive label in 1798." Now this is a very specific statement from a very reputable source. The article as written had said that "Democratic-Republican" was "never actually used" and further down in the article said it was "rarely" used. I then corrected this discrepancy. My edit was modified by a user saying that "official name 1798 not accepted by most sources". I am going to rvt back, since I consider Britannica to be a reputable source. If someone can provide a simmilarly-reputable source that contradicts this information, then we can discuss it here. -- JW1805 (Talk) 17:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I recently made an edit, and six minutes later Rjensen reverted to the previous version, because I had cited Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta. His reasoning was "do not use encyclopedias-- use scholarly sources". My edit was in complete accordance with the Wikipedia guidelines. [6] If Rjensen believes that Wikipedia guidelines suggest otherwise, I ask him to please point me to the exact page, section, paragraph, and sentence. If he cannot do this, then I ask him to undo his reversion. If he disputes the facts, that's fine, but don't say not to use references that are acceptable sources according to Wikipedia guidelines. - JP
Britannica seems to disagree with itself about when the name "Democratic-Republican Party" was used. Britannica's article on the National Republican Party states, "U.S. political party formed after what had been the Republican (or Jeffersonian Republican) party split in 1825. The Jeffersonian Republicans had been the only national political party following the demise of the Federalists during the War of 1812. During the contested election of 1824, followers of Henry Clay and John Quincy Adams began calling themselves National Republicans, while backers of Andrew Jackson emerged as Democratic Republicans. By the election of 1828, the Jacksonians were simply called Democrats." - JHP 08:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is the best treatment I have seen of party names. NOTE it refers to 1820-40 period but sheds a lot of light on Jeffesron's party and what happened to it. RJ The Presidential Campaign of 1832. By Samuel Rhea Gammon Johns Hopkins Press. 1922. Page Number: 155-161 (footnotes omitted). APPENDIX I PARTY NOMENCLATURE To determine exactly when the terms "Democratic" and "Democratic Republican," on the one hand, and the term "National Republican," on the other, came to be applied to the followers of Jackson and to those of Adams and Clay respectively, is difficult. This cannot be categorically determined since usage varied in different States. Indeed the only sweeping statement applicable is that there never was any uniformity or consistency generally displayed by either party in its self-designation down to 1830; even as late as 1832 the Jacksonians referred to themselves officially as the "Republican party." 1 The chief causes for the slow development of distinctive party names were: first, the reluctance of the various factions into which the old Republican party was split by the campaign of 1824 to regard themselves, or even to seem to appear, as other than the true Republican party; second, the fact that the campaigns of 1824 and 1828 were so largely based upon the personalities of the candidates instead of upon their political principles. Thus during the campaign of 1824 the Adams, Clay, Calhoun, Crawford and Jackson factions respectively considered themselves as parts of the old Republican party as it had existed under Madison and Monroe. Party nomenclature began to take distinctive shape, locally at least, during the campaign of 1824. At the beginning of that contest the one party name in existence was "Repub lican." Indeed the party had been mostly so styled since ____________________ 1 See "Proceedings of a Convention of Republican Delegates . .. held at Baltimore, . . . May, 1832," History Pamphlets, vol. 293, Johns Hopkins University Library. p-155 1812, as is shown by Jefferson's letters and by Niles' Register. 2 As the Adams and Clay factions inclined more toward each other in their advocacy of a nationalistic policy as to internal improvements, and still considered themselves and were considered within the Republican party, the descriptive adjective "national" began to be applied to them to differentiate them from the rather more particularistic followers of Jackson and Crawford. As far as can be ascertained the term "National Republican" was first applied to the Adams-Clay followers in New York during the latter stages of the campaign of 1824 when they united in the state legislature in order to defeat the Regency's effort to choose Crawford electors. Van Buren speaks of it thus: "The 'high minded' [a little group of anti-Clintonian Federalists] espoused the cause of Mr. Adams zealously, and the, feelings produced, or rather revived, by that contest carried them back into the federal ranks -then called National Republicans -where the survivors are still [ 1854] serving as Whigs." 3 However this may have been, the term was not at all used in contemporary newspapers and letters. In New York politics the name "Democratic" was also revived just prior to the opening of the national campaign of 1824. In 1818 there had been a split in the Republican party in the State, Clinton leading one faction and Van Buren the other. 4 The latter was dubbed by its enemies the "Bucktails," and about the same time began to refer to itself as the "Democratic" party. 5 The term "Republican," however, was still used to indicate both "Bucktails" and Clintonians. 6 As the Albany Regency under Van Buren's direction grew in strength and its party in the State became dominant, the term "Democratic" came to mean the Regency's party. p-156 In Pennsylvania down to 1823 the general party term was "Republican" as distinguished from "Federalist." As the democracy of the State became more and more militant in its support of Jackson, the popular meetings of his followers all over the State used the term "Democrats" to describe themselves and their political principles and referred to the political body in which they claimed membership as the "democratic republican party." 7 The state convention which nominated Jackson for president was composed of delegates appointed by the "democratic republicans of this state." 8 At the same time however the convention referred to the congressional caucus as being made up of a "minority of the republican members of Congress" and its action as being therefore a departure from "republican party" established usage. 9 This indicates that the party at large in the country was still styled the "Republican" and that Jackson's Pennsylvania supporters considered themselves as part of it. So far as any generalization is possible from the above and other instances, it appears that both general groups -the followers of Crawford and Jackson on the one hand, and those of Adams and Clay on the other -into which the old Republican party was showing a tendency to divide by the end of 1823, still regarded themselves as Republicans and within the party thus designated. The terms "Democratic," "Democratic Republican" and "National Republican" had come into being as party names, but their use was confined to localities, States at most. The use of the first of these seems to have been confined to the Regency party in New York, that of the second to the Jacksonians in Pennsylvania, while the third was a designation for the Adams-Clay faction in New York plus the remnant of Federalists who joined them. Certainly there was no general use of any party name except "Republican." p. -157 Throughout the campaign of 1828 the same characteristics were manifested. The elimination of Crawford, the relegation of Calhoun and Clay to places of secondary importance, the election of Adams, and the union between his and Clay's followers operated to draw the line more sharply between the two opposing factions into which the shattered old Republican party had coalesced by the end of 1825. No other party name than "Republican," however, was generally used by either faction and each considered itself the true Republican party, the direct lineal descendant of that of Madison and Monroe. 10 There is no evidence that either faction regarded its opponent as other than a schismatic Republican group; indeed all the evidence points to this as the case. Clay stated this point of view exactly in a letter to Webster near the close of 1826 as follows: "We really have in this country no other than a Republican party. Names may be gotten up or kept up in particular states for local or personal purposes, but at this time there are but two parties in the Union, that of the administration and the opposition." 11 In local practice throughout the country the use of party nomenclature was still inconsistent and varied. The single definite fact and also the only definite distinction in the use of names, as is shown in contemporary newspapers, was the nation-wide use of "the administration party" and "the opposition party," 12 or "the friends, of General Jackson" and "the friends of the administration." 13 Conventions were spoken of as "Adams" and "Jackson" conventions; 14 a voter was an "Adams man" or a "Jackson man"; 15 and the tickets nominated for state and local offices were known as "the Adams ticket" and "the Jackson ticket," the individual p158 candidate being the "Adams candidate" or the " Jackson candidate." 16 Aside from these terms based on the persons rather than upon their principles, there was no consistency or uniformity as to party designation. The Jackson paper in New Hampshire still referred to the supporters of the two parties as "Republicans" and "Federalists." 17 The Albany Argus spoke of "devotion to the republican cause and the interests of the democratic party" in the same sentence and connection. 18 After Jackson and Calhoun had become the party candidates in 1828, the Argus and the United States Telegraph each headed a column daily with "Republican National Ticket" over the names of the two men. 19 The Richmond Enquirer used the term "Republican" to refer to the Jackson party where the reference was unmistakable, but where it was not clear, used the conventional "Adams" or "Jackson" to distinguish. 20 Only in Pennsylvania was there a definite drift toward the use of "Democratic" as a distinctive term. The term "democratic republican" had been used to describe the Jacksonians from the time the State began to stampede to him in 1823. 21 Hence "democratic republican" continued as the term mainly used in the campaign of 1828. Notwithstanding this there was a tendency to use "democratic" alone as the party designation. This tendency is illustrated by the references to the state convention at Harrisburg which was referred to by the party papers as the "Democratic Convention at Harrisburg." 22 It appears also in the convention's p-159 nomination of Jackson "as the democratic candidate of Pennsylvania" for president. 23 As to the Adams party, if Van Buren's memory was correct after twenty-five years, the name "National Republican" had been in existence since the campaign of 1824, 24 but there was certainly no general, and apparently no local, use of it during the campaign of 1828. As has been said the party was generally referred to among its friends as the "Republican" party if the reference was unmistakable, otherwise as the "friends of the administration" or "friends of Adams." During the campaign of 1832, the use of party names rested more on party principles, hence for the most part the names of Jackson and Clay were discarded as descriptive adjectives. As nearly as can be determined, the name "National Republican" became current during the year 1830, about the time that party launched Clay's campaign. 25 Niles begins using it and it begins to appear in letters about the end of 1830 and the beginning of 1831. 26 In the first two months of 1831 it became fixed party usage. During the process of effecting the party's organization in New York City it was used exclusively; 27 it was also used for the most part by the state conventions held in Connecticut and Maine at this time. 28 "National Republican" received what may be called the final stamp of approval as the party's official title by the National Intelligencer in its issue of February 22, 1831, thus: "National Republican is an excellent designation for a national party in our republican Union. Let it be adopted everywhere, by all who would uphold the Federal Constitution; secure the independence and continuance of the p160 Supreme Court; preserve a sound currency; possess a substantive and enlightened President of the United States; prevent offices from becoming the booty of mere partisans and parasites; and obtain a truly responsible and visible government." 29 Hence it is to be expected, and this was actually the case, that the proceedings of the party's two conventions, that at Baltimore in December, 1831, and that at Washington the following May, should be printed by order of those bodies under the respective titles of "Journal of the National Republican Convention" and "Proceedings of the National Republican Convention of Young Men." 30 During the campaign the use of "Democratic" as a designation for the party increased somewhat in favor with the Jacksonians but did not by any means displace "Republican" as the party's official title. "Democratic Republican" was, however, the most frequently used of the three names, no doubt in order to differentiate the party more sharply from the National Republican. Seward states that "The campaign for 1832 opened with the year 1830. The Republican party, now taking to itself the more radical name of 'the Democratic party,' announced . . . its determination to secure the reelection of Andrew Jackson." 31 Seward's memory here seems at fault since the New York Courier and Enquirer, then staunchly Jacksonian, in the same article referred to the Jackson party by all three names, as "republican party," "democratic party" and "democratic republicans." 32 In Pennsylvania "Democratic Republican" remained the most prevalent term, with "Democratic" used to some extent, 33 and this seems to have been the case p 161 in New Hampshire also. 34 A letter from Richards to McLean shows that the Jackson ticket in Philadelphia "is called simply the Democratic ticket." 35 For all these local variations, and the probable increased use of "Democratic Republican," 36, the official designation of the party remained "Republican." Thus The Globe, the Albany Argus, and the Richmond Enquirer usually referred to their party by the latter name, and Jackson, Kendall and other leaders so designated it in their letters. 37 This official title of the party conclusively appears in the caption of the proceedings of its convention in Baltimore, as "A Convention of Republican Delegates." 38 To generalize categorically concerning this usage, which was so varied and which crystallized so gradually, is venturesome. The following facts, however, seem to stand out with some degree of clearness. As to the designation of the followers of Adams and, later, of Clay, the term "National Republican" may have been coined as early as the campaign of 1824, according to Van Buren, 39 or in that of 1828, according to Seward, 40 but the name certainly did not attain general or official usage before 1830, after Clay's campaign was under way. As to the Jackson party, the designations "Democratic" and "Democratic Republican" were both used in the campaign of 1824," 41 but in a few localities only. The party, like that of Adams and Clay, still regarded itself as the Republican party, and this name continued as the official one to the close of the campaign of 1832, with "Democratic Republican" gaining but not supplanting "Republican" in current usage. [end of Appendix] Rjensen 22:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Jefferson was famous for his attacks on activist judges (esp John Marshall!) which modern day GOP echoes. As for the heritage bit, I think almost everyone refers to Jefferson's heritage with very little mention of Madison, Gallatin, Monroe etc. Peterson (1960) makes that clear as does Wiltse. Rjensen 05:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
1822: We already see the power, installed for life, responsible to no authority (for impeachment is not even a scare-crow), advancing with a noiseless and steady pace to the great object of consolidation. The foundations are already deeply laid by their decisions, for the annihilation of constitutional State rights, and the removal of every check, every counterpoise to the ingulphing power of which themselves are to make a sovereign part. [* * *] Let the future appointments of judges be for four or six years, and removable by the President and Senate. This will bring their conduct, at regular periods, under revision and probation, and may keep them in equipoise between the general and special governments. We have erred in this point, by copying England, where certainly it is a good thing to have the judges independent of the King. But we have omitted to copy their caution also, which makes a judge removable on the address of both legislative houses. That there should be public functionaries independent of the nation, whatever may be their demarit, is a solecism in a republic, of the first order of absurdity and inconsistency. — TITLE: To Wm. T. Barry. EDITION: Washington ed. vii, 256.
The party invented many campaign techniques--there are numerous books and studies that demonstrate this in detail. That is a major contribution and needs to be explained, which I try to do in non-controversial fashion. A number of historians have pointed to Beckley as they key person so he gets appropriate attention. See books by Cunningham, Elkins-McKitrick, Paisley, Chambers, Lipset, Tinkom, and Risjord. Rjensen 01:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The long blockquotes recently added are a bit disruptive to the flow of the article. This isn't Wikisource. Some effort should be made to summarize this material, and link to the full text in the External links or References section. -- JW1805 (Talk) 16:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to bring this up again. Rjensen is totally right that in recent works, "Republican" is overwhelmingly more common than "Democratic-Republican," which is rapidly becoming an obsolete term. I would much prefer to move this article to something like Republican Party (Jeffersonian) or Republican Party (1792-1824), or something.
But if there's a consensus to leave it here, I don't have a serious issue with that. What I do have an issue with is Griot's claim that because the article is here, we have to refer to it as the "Democratic-Republican Party" in every other article on wikipedia. That is ridiculous, and not in line with any wiki policy that I am aware of. john k 03:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've read that. You, so far, have only cited other encyclopedias. Rjensen has cited from numerous textbooks. The latter is a better model for how we should title the article than the former. If you want to demonstrate that it was called the "Democratic-Republican Party" at the time, you'll have to cite something other than an encyclopedia - my understanding is that this term was only used after 1824 for supporters of Jackson. For instance, my copy of the Encyclopedia of American History by Richard B. Morris (a book dating back to 1976, but highly useful, and which refers to the party in question mostly as the Republicans, but occasionally as the Democratic-Republicans) has this to say: Over the winter of 1824-25, the Republican party divided into two groups. The Adams-Clay wing became known as the National Republicans, while the "Jackson men" emerged as the Democratic Republicans. To demonstrate that high school and college textbooks use Democratic-Republicans, you'll have to, you know, cite textbooks, instead of just asserting it. So far, Rjensen surveyed 8 textbooks, 6 of which used "Republicans" and only one of which used "Democratic-Republicans". JP additionally cited a textbook which uses "Democratic-Republican", and provided a scan of a page of it, but did not say what textbook it was, leaving it essentially useless as a citation (it may, for all we know, be the same one that Rjensen found which uses "Democratic-Republican"; or it may be an older edition of a textbook which has since switched to "Republican".) So, yeah, I've read the earlier discussion, and I find it completely unconvincing. You've been particularly unhelpful about citing any useful sources beyond encyclopedias. john k 15:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)\
In terms of usage in other articles, I think the standard should be that we use "Democratic-Republican" in contexts where there might otherwise be confusion with the modern Republican party (lists of officeholders, for instance), and "Republican" in contexts where there is no confusion. Obviously, both names should be mentioned on this page. john k 18:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've done a JSTOR search on the use of the term "Democratic-Republicans" in history journals after 1990 (JSTOR only goes up to about 1999, so this would exclude the most recent usage, but still should be fairly useful). There are 108 results for Democratic-Republican, but let's follow up...
1. "Republicanism in the Age of Democratic Revolution: The Democratic-Republican Societies of the 1790s," by Matthew Schoenbachler, Journal of the Early Republic, 1998. This article uses the term to refer to societies, rather than to the party. It notes in a footnote that the societies were given various names, including "Democratic," "Republican," "Democratic-Republican," "True Republican," "Constitutional," "United Freemen," "Patriotic," "Political," "Franklin," and "Madisonian," but that he will use "Democratic-Republican" to refer to them. However, he refers to the party as the "Republican Party."
2. Review by Charles E. Clark of Richard N. Rosenfeld's American Aurora: A Democratic-Republican Returns. The Suppressed History of Our Nation's Beginnings and the Heroic Newspaper That Tried To Report It. in the Journal of American History, 2000. Whatever the book itself does (It is unclear from the title whether it would refer to the party as the Democratic-Republicans), the review author uses "Republican" to refer to the party.
3. Review by Dean Albertson of Irwin and Debi Unger's Turning Point: 1968, American Historical Review, 1990. This usage is irrelevant to the discussion, referring to Democratic-Republican disputes in the 1960s.
4. Review by William M. Fowler of Gene A. Smith's "For the Purpose of Defense": The Politics of the Jeffersonian Gunboat Program. in the Journal of the Early Republic, 1995. Uses "Democratic Republican" to refer to the party.
5. Review by Harry Ammon of Robert Allen Rutland's The Prediency of James Madison, Journal of American History, 1991. Refers to the party as the "Democratic Republicans"
6. Review by Cathy Matson of John E. Crowley's The Privileges of Independence: Neomercantilism and the American Revolution. Uses "Democratic-Republican" to refer to the party.
7. Review by Marianne Persiaccante of Michael G. Kenny's The Perfect Law of Liberty: Elias Smith and the Providential History of America, uses "Democratic-Republican" to refer to the party.
8. Review by Nicole Etcheson of Donald J. Ratcliffe's Party Spirit in a Frontier Republic: Democratic Politics in Ohio, 1793-1821, refers to the party as "Democratic Republicans"
9. Review by Robert Allen Rutland of Stuart Leibiger's Founding Friendship: George Washington, James Madison, and the Creation of the American Republic, Journal of American History, 2000. Refers only to the "democratic-republican societies," not to the party. :NOT APPLICABLE -- party not named
10. Review by Conan Fischer of Robert Gellatley's The Gestapo and German Society: Enforcing Racial Policy, 1933-1945., English Historical Review, 1994. Obviously an irrelevant reference to the Nazis. :NOT APPLICABLE
11. "The First Party Competition and Southern New England's Public Christianity" by Jonathan D. Sassi, Journal fo the Early Republic, 2001. Uses Democratic-Republican for the Party.
12. Review by Robert M.S. McDonald of The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 28: January 1794 to February 1796, ed. John Catanzariti. Uses the term to refer to the Democratic-Republican Societies, not the party. :NOT APPLICABLE -- party not named
Of the first 12 results, only half use "Democratic-Republican" for the party. Taking that as representative of the results as a whole, we can assume only 54 uses of "Democratic-Republican" to refer to the party in JSTOR since 1990.
Because of the much greater frequency of references to the modern Republican Party, it is pretty hard to figure out how often the Jeffersonian party is being referred to as simply the "Republicans". However, a JSTOR search limited to usage of the term "Republican Party" (and excluding articles which use "Democratic-Republican") in two journals focusing on earlier American history - the Journal of the Early Republic and the William and Mary Quarterly - turns up 73 results. While perhaps half of these actually refer to the modern Republican party in the 19th century, we should remember that this is a much more limited search - it doesn't include references to "Republicans," it doesn't include references to the Republican Party in articles which might mention "Democratic-Republican" in other contexts (as several of the Democratic-Republican articles do), and it only refers to 2 journals, rather than the 38 history journals JSTOR has in total. Which is to say, there are about 54 references in all of JSTOR's history journals to the "Democratic-Republicans" since 1990. In the same time period, there are nearly as many uses of the restrictive phrase "Republican Party" in just two journals. Although it'd be hard to say conclusively, because of the extent to which we're going to be swamped with references to the modern Republicans, it seems to me that this is fairly clearly indicative that Republican is more common in specialist publications than Democratic-Republican. john k 16:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Two more textbooks, courtesy of my roommate, who studies 19th century US history.
Well, you seem determined, in the Democratic Party (United States) article, that we not mention this, so I was making sure.
Some more sources:
All of these books are textbooks or books for a general audience. Most of them, except the one least concerned with political history, use "Republican". john k 01:22, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Er, hello, anybody out there? If the discussion has ceased, I'll post a WP:RM later today. john k 19:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I vote to keep this Democratic-Republican. Changing it to Republican would be needlessly confusing, as this party is different from the modern Republican party. The title should remain the same, if only to differentiate the two. -- Fearfulsymmetry 21:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
What's with all this voting? There's no official "Requested move" yet, as a) I hoped, vainly I think, to deal with this through discussion; and b) one of the main issues is not about the location of this page, but how to refer to the party in the text. Also - is it confusing when any two things have the same name? Should we not refer to the American Whig party as the "Whigs" out of the potential for confusion with the British Whigs who were completely different? john k 21:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
A couple points here on Griot's tactics, which seem to frequently revolve around being wildly misleading (whether on purpose or unintentionally I cannot say):
Here's the basic issue: for me to take Griot seriously at all, he's going to have to provide some actual citations, beyond just other encyclopedias, that use Democratic-Republicans. So far, Rjensen and I have provided more citations of the use of "Democratic-Republican" than Griot has. This is absurd. If Griot chooses not to make any citations, and instead to just continue to spin his jaws in the style noted above, I'm going to propose both a page move and some kind of vote on how to refer to the party independently of where the page is located. (That is, whether we should refer to the party as the "Republicans" even though the article might still remain at "Democratic-Republican" out of lack of a good alternative.) john k 16:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
As to the idea that calling Jefferson's party "Republican" gives credence to the Bush administration in some way, this is absurd. Lincoln was indisputably a Republican, and the Democratic Party at the time of the Civil War was indisputably pretty awful. Does this association make Bush look any better? Does it make FDR look worse? These kind of concerns are insanely subjective, and there's no place for them in an encyclopedia. john k 16:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not following you around. I was discussing your conduct in this article, which has been, in my opinion, marked by use of dishonest debating tactics. I set out to catalogue this, and to make arguments against your points. I don't see how this is any less legitimate a use of my time than any other stupid wikipedia talk page activities. john k 16:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Would be very awkward to read if Democratic-Republican is used throughout - use the name 'as it was in use at the time' to provide appropriate context. Just make sure that the modern Re[publican party is identified as modern every time it is mentioned (which it appears to be now). Please note that this is the first time I've actually bothered to read about this aspect of American History (like I'm Canajun, eh?) and I don't find it the least bit confusing. Bridesmill 19:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I checked 8 current college US history textbooks that have online tables of contents 1 uses Dem-Rep (see #3) 6 use Republican 1 uses Jeffersonians (#6)
Longman: [15]
ch 5 has section Federalists and Republicans: The Rise of Political Parties.
ch 9. Revolutionary Legacies, 1789—1803. Competing Political Visions in the New Nation. Federalism and Democratic-Republicanism in Action.
ch 8 student guide Controversy between Federalist supporters of the national government and the emerging Jeffersonian Republican opposition first erupted over domestic policies designed to stabilize the nation's finances and promote its economic development. Those policies revealed deep-seated conflicts between economic interests and raised urgent questions of how the new constitution should be interpreted
ch 8 = Republican Ascendancy: The Jeffersonian Vision.
from Bedford St Martin [16]
Jefferson's Agrarian Vision Hamilton's financial programs divided the Federalists into two irreconcilable political parties and led to the emergence of the Republicans, a group headed by Madison and Jefferson.
[17] so the textbooks vote is 7-1 against D-R and 6-2 in favor of Republicans
Both South Korea and Croatia have "Democratic-Republican" parties, and maybe others. Rjensen 01:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
In the question of what to name this article, "Democratic-Republican Party" or "Democratic Party," I've been arguing in favor using other online encyclopedias as our model. As much as some people think Wikipedia is a playground or a chance to exercise finger muscles over a keyboard, most people use this place to look up information. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia. All the online encyclopedias/references I found filed this topic under "Democratic-Republican Party." We should too. Here are the online encyclopedias/references with URLs to their "Democratic-Republican Party" articles: Encyclopedia Britannica; Reference.com; American Heritage Encyclopedia; U.S. Facts on File; Encarta Encyclopedia; World Encyclopedia; Studies for Kids; Ohio History Central Online Encyclopedia; Oxford University Press Encyclopedia; SparkNotes (very popular with American high schoolers; Your Definition.com; The Free Dictionary.com
Several of these sites are wikipedia mirrors - reference.com, U.S. Facts on File. The "World Encyclopedia" and the "Oxford University Press Encyclopedia" are the same site. The American Heritage source listed is a dictionary, not an encyclopedia - of course a dictionary should list that meaning. Note that the definition of "Republican Party" ( [19]) includes Jefferson's party as one of its meanings. The freedictionary.com and yourdictionary.com are also dictionaries - Dictionaries are completely inconclusive in terms of what the usage is, since they'll have usage at both terms.
So that means that we're left with britannica, encarta, the "world encyclopedia," social studies for kids, ohio history central online, and sparknotes. john k 03:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
and Jefferson a Republican [24] as well as Gallatin [25] It calls no one a D-R....of course it's much newer than Ency Brit and Encarta (which is based on an old grocery-store encyclopedia called Funk and Wagnals) The commercial encyclopedias were written decades ago (EB article about 1986) and are updated by staff people who are not histoians. Wiki can do better. Rjensen 04:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Another online encyclopedia is Columbia. They don't have an article on Jefferson's party, but in the article on Jefferson, it calls the party the Republicans. Note also that in Britannica's article on Jefferson, it uses "Republican" to refer to the party: But an embryonic version of the party structure was congealing, and Jefferson, assisted and advised by Madison, established the rudiments of the first opposition party in American politics under the Republican banner. john k 15:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Griot was the one who suggested Wiki should be of Readers Digest quality. And yes, Griot is very good at copyediting--certainly better than me. It's dumbing down to rely on a general encyclopedia instead of the best scholarship. -- let's use the Pulitzer prize winners (Rakove, Ellis, Bailyn, Fischer, Morgan--he won the Pulitzer this month).
Here are 10 current textbooks that use "Republican", with URLs (you may have to click through to the appropriate chapter).
between Republicans and Federalists, by Davidson, Gienapp, Heyrman, Lytle, and Stoff [29]. This table of contents doesn't mention the "Republican Party" anywhere. It mentions "Republican Experiments," "Republican Society," and "Differences between Republicans and Federalists." - Griot
Rjensen 07:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Re: "Unto a Good Land"--the website is not much help but I purchased a paper copy of the book. It uses "Republican party". Is it a serious danger that someone reading through the article will get confused between Madison in 1800, McKinley in 1900 and McCain in 2000. No, I think not. Rjensen 16:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to say straight out that all this wrangling over sources is probably not going to convince anyone. I think that "Republican" is probably now used by a majority. A lot of old sources, and a few newer ones, use "Democratic-Republican." The question then becomes, "in such a situation, what should wikipedia do?"
I'm going to put the article name to one side for now, and address the question of what name we should primarily use in the text. I think it's fairly clear that we should use "Republican". Firstly, this was the name which was the most commonly used at the time. Secondly, this is the name which is used by the majority of historians. Thirdly, in certain contexts, especially that of the break-up of the Republican Party (because the faction that would become the Democratic Party actually did call itself the Democratic-Republicans), "Democratic-Republican" is a lot more confusing than "Republican," which really isn't confusing at all, as our Canadian contributor demonstrated. Fourthly, there is absolutely no rule which says that we must call something by the name we use in the article title about that thing. That's completely ridiculous, and I defy Griot to come up with any wikipedia policy anywhere that supports such a claim. As we all admit, both names (Democratic-Republican and Republican) are used by historians as names for the party. Some historians, like Harry Watson, use the names indiscriminately, alternating between them as the mood strikes them. Even if we decide that "Democratic-Republican" is a better name for the article because of disambiguation issues, that does not mean that "Democratic-Republican" is the better term to use in the text.
In terms of the article name, I genuinely don't feel as strongly - I might even say I don't feel strongly at all. The only reason I proposed a name change at all is Griot's insistence that the name of the article must match the name we use in text, which, as I say, I strongly disagree with. I don't especially like "Democratic-Republican Party (United States)" as a name, but I'm not sure what good alternatives there are. The obvious Republican Party (United States) is taken. We could move to Jeffersonian Republican Party. Or to Republican Party (Jeffersonian) or to Republican Party (1792-1824). None of these would be terrible - I'd suggest that none would be any worse than the current title. But none is terribly ideal. So I'm open to suggestions here. I'd be happy to just leave the article where it is if we can come to a consensus that "Republican Party" is the preferred term to use in article text, and that "Democratic-Republican" is just a necessary evil of an article title for disambiguation purposes. john k 15:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not a moot point. Your point is completely absurd. The Linnaeus comparison is ridiculous - Linnaeus was writing about taxonomy, not about, well, everything. As I said, the only reason I proposed a move was because of this ridiculous position of yours. But the positions remains utterly absurd. For instance, in articles about people whose names change throughout their lives, we use whatever name they were known by at the time. Benjamin Disraeli is "Disraeli" before he's made an Earl, and "Beaconsfield" afterwards. I'd also note that for writers with pen names, there is no clear single standard - the Twain article mostly calls him Twain. The article on Stendhal generally calls him "Beyle" for the period before he started writing, and "Stendhal" thereafter. The article on Lewis Carroll calls him Dodgson throughout. The article on George Eliot refers to her as Mary Ann Evans in discussion of her personal life, and George Eliot in discussion of her work. There's simply no rule doing what you claim. john k 18:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what these footnotes are supposed to be pointing to?
We should use the <ref></ref> syntax for footnotes. -- JW1805 (Talk) 21:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
While we have been debating terminology, somehow large sections of the article got misplaced and I just now restored them. The party was one of the first mass parties in the world and it invented many new techniques, especially in how to win an election, and use of newspapers. That is an important development in political history (in American and world perspective) so it needs coverage. No it is not in any way POV. The Federalists were slow in adopting these methods and that (days David Hackett Fischer) was a fatal mistake for the Federalists. Rjensen 22:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Grand National Party mentions that the GNP used to be known as the "Democratic Republican Party" as its inception as well. I don't know whether this is sufficiently notable, however, to include a disambiguation link here. I'll leave it up to you guys. Deco 10:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The following is stated in the article:
"That caucus was not used after 1816, and the party as a national institution ceased to exist. James Monroe ran under the party's banner in 1820 (without a caucus), and in 1824 there was no party nominee."
I hope that everyone will agree that these sentences should be re-worded slightly.
The national Caucus assembled in the U.S. Capitol Building on 4/5/1820. Forty members of Congress attended. In the days preceding the Caucus, members of Congress from NC and NY decided to boycott the Caucus because they felt it was organized to embarrass VP Tompkins. Only two Virginians attended. Richard M. Johnson presented a resolution stating that no nominations were necessary, as the incumbents were expected to run again. The motion carried, and James Monroe and Daniel Tompkins became the candidates. Ohio Elects the President p. 16.
The Caucus last assembled in the U.S. House chamber on 2/14/1824. Sixty-eight members of Congress attended, the bulk coming from four states (NY, VA, NC, and GA). Ten states were entirely unrepresented, and five states had only one representative. This last Caucus nominated William H. Crawford for President by a vote of 64 to 4 scattering and Albert Gallatin for VP by a vote of 57 to eight scattering. Ohio Elects the President p. 17.
In the presidential election of 1824 in North Carolina, two slates of presidential electors were offered: one called the People's Ticket which was unofficially pledged to Andrew Jackson, and the Caucus Ticket which was officially pledged to William H. Crawford. The People's Ticket was originally pledged to John C. Calhoun (mentioned in many newspapers; only clipping I copied was from the Raleigh Register of 1/15/1824). When Calhoun switched to the VP race, the People's Ticket became unofficially the Jackson ticket. The Raleigh Register endorsed the Caucus Ticket and ran the ballot every week in its columns. I copied the ballot printed on 9/10/1824, which was substantially the same which ran for many weeks. It begins with these words: "National Nomination. At a meeting of the Democratic Members of Congress, held in the Chamber of the House of Repressentatives, [2/14] 1824, of which Benjamin Ruggles of Ohio, was Chairman, and Ela Collins of New-York, Secretary..." that Crawford and Gallatin were nominated.
These are just a few bits of information that the Caucus continued to be held after 1816. I don't think that this is a controverial matter, and I hope that people will feel in agreement that some modification of the text is warranted. Chronicler3 02:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Chronicler3
My reply then would be to adjust the text to say something along these lines: "although the Caucus assembled in 1820 and 1824 to nominate candidates for president and vice president, low attendance indicates that the caucus system had collapsed" rather than suggesting that the party held no national caucus after 1816. The text as it stands is not historically accurate. Chronicler3 10:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I did a study of 25 American history books to determine which term historians favor for Jefferson's party, "Democratic-Republican Party" or "Republican Party." Only one book (Salliant's Black Puritan, Black Republican) uses the term "Repubican Party"; one other (Laudau's Friendly Foes) uses the term "Jeffersonian Republican Party." All others use the term "Democratic-Republican Party."
Here are the results of my study. I think we need to take into consideration which term professional historians use for this party. My study clearly shows that the vast majority of historians use the term "Democratic-Republican Party":
& not by scholars (Doak, Landau, Payan); others deal with late 19th or even 20th century. Others are not by historians at all (Fortier, Walter) Suggest instead look at the books written and reviewed by scholars of the 1790-1839 period--this was done above, see "Journal of the Early Republic". Rjensen 04:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Warning: The following post is long.]
Before we start, I am going to caveat all of the following with the comment that I don't subscribe to the idea that whatever “professional historians” do is dispositive as to what Wikipedia's policy on this naming issue should be. For one thing, the term “professional historian” is not well-defined: witness the dispute above between Griot, who thinks that textbook writers are “professional historians” and Richard Jensen, who does not. For another, I think that there are other factors to consider, such as what the people of the time actually named the party, and not confusing our readership with an ambiguous name. Anyway, on to the experiment….
When Griot pointed out his 25 books to me, my first response was, “Wow. That's different from my experience.” And, indeed, I went through my bookshelves (still only partially unpacked from my most recent move) and found the following books that discuss this period of American history:
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help)Of the above books, only Holt doesn't refer to Jefferson's party exclusively as “Republicans” but instead as “Jeffersonian Republicans”. (Tellingly, it covers the historical period starting with their breakup and starting with the creation of the modern Republican party; in other words, Holt needs to disambiguate.) Ellis (2001) does refer to “Democratic-Republican societies”, but does not so refer to the party in this fashion.
Of course, there's an obvious problem with my above list. It suffers from a selection bias, insofar as these are books that interest either me or my wife. It may be that I am predisposed to liking books that have properties that predispose them to using “Republican” over “Democratic-Republican”. I then contrived to perform an experiment. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and did a quick survey of the books in the American history section. I had about 25 minutes to do this survey before the store closed, so I was only able to get at about ten books that referenced Jefferson's party. (The first books are from the “New Releases” section, followed by the general section in alphabetical order by author.) Here are the results:
The results of this experiment are interesting to consider. First of all, only one of these books uses “Democratic-Republican” exclusively; four others use both, and five use “Republican” exclusively. The ones that are mixed tend to use “Republican” more often than “Democratic-Republican”. Thus, among popular history books, it seems that both are used, with a bias towards “Republican”. (Keep in mind that this is a small sample size; a larger sampling might indicate a different bias.)
What is more interesting, however, is that, of the four books that use both, three refer to a shift in usage from “Republican” to “Democratic-Republican”, and two peg the timing of this shift to the beginning of the War of 1812. If in fact it is true that the name “Democratic-Republican” picked up currency around 1810–1812, that should influence how we refer to the party: we should use “Republican” or “Jeffersonian Republican” for articles whose subject matter is prior to 1810–1812 and “Democratic-Republican” or “Democratic Republican” for articles whose subject matter is later.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth for the moment. Comments?
— DLJessup ( talk) 13:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been reading this discussion with some interest. I agree with the above statement by JW1805, in so much as Wikipedia is a general purpose encyclopedia and is not just for scholars but the public at large. When considering nomenclature., we must take into consideration what is generally held as acceptable terms by the general-political-academic community as it display's this article's topic to the public:
It seems to me that both Democratic-Republican and Republican are used to describe Jefferson's party that competed with the Federalist's represented by Adams and Hamilton and by inference Washington (although he didn't belong to any party). I side then with both terms used in context. I think we as a community can find a way to do just that like some of the quotes provided above. -- Northmeister 02:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
A couple of points here:
I'm not sure how all this information weighs against the disambiguation issue. What I do think is that the usage information so far brought forward supports the following:
Any thoughts? john k 23:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, this whole debate gets a little silly. But if you all are going to have this debate, I'd really recommend some real original documentation to take it to the right level. Citing encyclopedias, websites, and a bunch of dusty academics won't convince anyone. Best source I know of on-line is the Library of Congress Prints and Photographs collection [39], which has millions of lithographs and prints, many, many of them going back to this period. Campaign handbills and the like are good sources. The American Antiquarian Society probably has the most complete collection [40], but has to be accessed from a library that subscribes (or, with proper credentials, you can visit it in Worcester, MA, since it's just a great place anyways). Sam 00:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
What a great debate about what name to call the Rose. May I ask a different question: what about adding a section to this article on the names used by this particular party for itself over the years? It's actually rather fascinating as a topic, and there are periods when certain groups within the Party would try to make off with the name Republican previously applied to the broader group. Whatever we call the article, I think the discussion is worthy of being in there. Sam 18:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The transition in this article from the Republican Party of Jefferson to the Democratic Party of Jackson doesn't seem to be well dealt with and is very inconsistent. Jackson gets listed as a candidate of the party in one section, but not as a president elected by the party in another. I'm not sure I buy the discussion that says the party "split" and "dissolved" prior to the 1928 campaign. Part of the problem is the reification of the party as an entity; my understanding is that all of the candidates in 1928 still viewed themselves as Republicans, and this may be the period of the party's greatest dominance, since no one was running against them. At that stage in time the apparti of party governance were not as well developed as today - we have to wait for Van Buren and Lincoln for that.
So I'd propose moving away from dissolution language and describing in more words what happened, which was a struggle over the heart and soul of the party in which Jackson emerged supreme and took over and reformed the party while others split. Sam 19:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind seeing more of the 1828 and on period under the Democratic Party (can go in either in my view), but we may want to add a "see also", and I don't like the tag of "Last Years, 1816-1824" for two reasons: it seems funny to have a party sound like a lame duck at a time when it is as dominant as any other political party in the history of the country, and, arguably, they aren't the last years, since there is ongoing continuity into the Democratic Party. Just some thoughts.
I especially like the handling of Van Buren, however. One of the most underappreciated figures in our history. Sam 23:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a bit late in the day, isn't it? Perhaps someone's trying to appeal to two traditions by this time. No sign anywhere of that 1798 usage - can someone point me to a primary source? Sam 01:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, it certainly seems ironic to me that the one bit of documentary evidence for the name Democratic-Republican Party in an article about the Democratic-Republican Party uses the name some 16 years after it was supposedly gone. That's four full election cycles! Sam 01:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, the term "Democratic-Republican" had an original contemporary use as a synonym for "Democrat" - it was used in this sense much more than it was ever used as a synonym for Jefferson's party... john k 17:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Morphh. I think it's important to mention that the Democratic-Republican Party is the precursor of the modern-day Democratic Party in the Democratic-Republican and Thomas Jefferson articles. The earlier party is the seed of the modern-day party. It's quite amazing if you think about it that a party Thomas Jefferson created in the 1790s is still alive today, albeit in a different form. If you say that Jefferson created the Democratic-Republican Party without also mentioning that this party is the precursor of a modern party, you don't convey how amazing Jefferson's work was. Griot 11:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Using Republican in this article as a header title is highly misleading. I've stated before, that I do not approve, and neither do scholars overall. I DO NOT accept a change without verifiable documented evidence, that such a change of history is necessary. Democratic-Republican has always been the name used in the United States, for this party by historians - regardless of anyones opinion. -- Northmeister 03:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Further J.Q. Adams was a Democratic-Republican only until the party splintered in 1824 when he organized the National Republican Party and Jackson men became what would be the Democratic Party. -- Northmeister 03:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Before this supposed business of the Republican Party "officially" taking the name "Democratic-Republican" goes into the article, we need to find something which is not a brief entry in a (19th century natch) encyclopedia that explains the context of this. Something is not a fact because it's repeated in a bunch of dubious sources (in different ways - note that the other sources which make this claim say 1798, while this one says 1793-1796.) Also notice that this source does say that the party was generally called the "Republicans." john k 09:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
A somewhat moroe recent historian (Monaghan: John Jay, p. 396) speaks of Freneau as a Democratic journalist, when writing about 1795. The only modern tendency against DR is the partisan tracts DLJessup lists far above. Septentrionalis 20:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
GRIOT uses a very old encyclopedia instead of solid scholarship. He likes to blank information -- that's pretty naughty behavior. As for name of party, let's use solid sources like Gammon's scholarly monograph--quoted at length on this page above. The 1832 proceedings of the 1st Dem national convention called themselves "Republicans", as Gammon says and as the New York Public Library listing of the convention proceesings proves. Take a look at [43] for solid proof. Rjensen 05:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Richard Hildreth was the first major historian of American political parties, writing a multivolume history in 1840s. He uses both "Republican" and "Democratic" to describe Jefferson's party in 1796-1804 era, preferring "Republican by anout 2-1. But he does not use the term "Democratic-Republican." You can read his entire text--and do word searches, at Google Books: [45].
I bolded a point in your post. All I'd like is an original document to support the point in your post I've bolded. If it was "official", was it incorporated - then there will likely, at the time, be a legislative act incorporating it (this is before state incorporation statutes, an invention of the Jacksonian era). If it was unincorporated, how about an official publication identifying it as such? Letterhead? Masthead of a party organ? A caucus or convention resolution? If you must, a statement in a period newspaper would be helpful (though less convincing, since that goes to use rather than "official" status). In my quick searches, I can't find anything to support party usage of D-R pre-Jacksonian era, other than the Democratic-Republican societies that were clearly separate. --On the other hand, I'd also like to see the same documentation for use of Republican. I see it in secondary sources, but an original document would help. Sam 16:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a fairly large contribution to the tracking the use of the name "Democratic" in describing Jefferson's party to the present era, using mostly primary sources. I hope all (or at least some) find it helpful (scroll down to the Quotes & Resources section):
Link Settler 09:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
How many historians are liberal/conservative? The best evidence comes from the Murray-Blessing 1982 survey that asked a cross section of professors of American political history whether they were liberal or conservative on domestic social and economic issues. The liberals outnumbered conservatives 190:50 or 80%-20% The two groups had only small differences in ranking the best and worst presidents.
Rankings by Liberals and Conservatives
rank | Liberals (n=190) | Conservatives (N=50) |
1 | Lincoln | Lincoln |
2 | FD Roosevelt | Washington |
3 | Washington | FD Roosevelt |
4 | Jefferson | Jefferson |
5 | T Roosevelt | T Roosevelt |
6 | Wilson | Jackson |
7 | Jackson | Truman |
8 | Truman | Wilson |
9 | LB Johnson | Eisenhower |
10 | John Adams | John Adams |
30 | Coolidge | Carter |
31 | Pierce | Nixon |
32 | Buchanan | Pierce |
33 | An. Johnson | An. Johnson |
34 | Grant | Buchanan |
35 | Nixon | Grant |
36 | Harding | Harding |
Source: Murray, Robert K. and Tim H. Blessing. Greatness in the White House: Rating the Presidents, from Washington Through Ronald Reagan (1994) p 135 Rjensen 15:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Guess what? The party used both names. A large majority of people in the united states today know the name of this party as the name it is right now: Democratic-Republican, and that it is in todays form the democratic party. Though I doubt the ideals back then are anything like today's crazy politics. I'm weighing in on this because I'd be stupified if this article changed its name. The name 'republican' can certainly be used within the article, because several members of it back in the day did apparently call it as such, while others called it different. And for years and years it was in textbooks as democratic-republican. Anything else is confusing to most people who would look for this. Kevin_b_er 01:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm curious as to when and why the hyphenation was introduced into the name. I'm at a loss to find early sources from the Library of Congress that hypenated the name--its appellation was "Democratic Republican" from at least the turn of the 19th century through the 1830s of the pro-Jackson/Van Buren faction. It is also true that it went by the appellation Republican (sans Democratic), before anyone points that out. I'm just interested in how the hyphenation came about. Settler 04:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how you can have it both ways; Republican AND Democratic Republican. "According to Federalist Noah Webster, the choice of the name "Republican" was "a powerful instrument in the process of making proselytes to the party.... The influence of names on the mass of mankind, was never more distinctly exhibited, than in the increase of the democratic party in the United States. The popularity of the denomination of the Republican Party, was more than a match for the popularity of Washington's character and services, and contributed to overthrow his administration.""
All the textbooks I've seen have termed this party "Republican". It's odd that some are choosing to use the artificial name that neither Jefferson nor Madison used. And the above quotes are derogatory in tone, instead of providing valuable information. It is clearly attempting to spin the success of Jefferson's and Madison's party on the name alone, based primarily on the sour-grapes opinion of one of their opposition. It should be struck. Skyemoor 01:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
As for the hyphenation, it's probably grammatical. "We are Democratic Republicans" [nouun], but "Democratic-Republican Party" [adjective]. Septentrionalis 05:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some code attached to the article (edit: look at notes section) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.59.131.134 ( talk • contribs) .
I have taught middle school US history. It is far more NPOV than anything I heard in history classes at university - although since I am a serious student of history, I also recognize how many ridiculous statements make it into school textbooks and require purging at some point.
Anyway, the point is that what passes for "common knowledge" on this subject is that the party is known to posterity as the Democrat-Republican party, even though it was commonly called the Republican party in its day. One of the reasons this name is chosen is that both of the modern day political parties in the US like to trace their roots to Thomas Jefferson, even though Jackson and Lincoln are the de facto founders of the modern day parties.
The Federalists have no real decendents in modern America. Their ideas, perceived as pro-monarchist and pro-class, were discredited, especially as a result of the Whisky Rebellion and the Alien and Sedition Acts. Much of what passes for acceptable political ideas in American politics was shaped by this debate. For example, the GOP might attack the Dems for being too statist, Washington centered, and tax-and-spend, while the Dems will accuse the GOP of being classist and overly pro-business (and might see something like the Patriot Act as being akin to the Sedition Act). Basically - as is wont ot happen in the revolutionary political climate that persists in the US to this day - Federalist ideas gradually became viewed as "un-American."
Really, Jefferson's victory in 1800 was instrumental in defining the ideals of a young democracy, and both modern parties construct and reconstruct their political ethos from the raw intellectual capital of Jefferson's philosophic victory over the Federalists. It forms the boundary of the debate (with apologies to those who extended it, such as TR, FDR, and LBJ). I suspect that the naming of Jefferson's party in the history books stems from a desire to reflect that reality - so important to understanding the rest of US history - which was viewed as more instructive than teaching the literal (but relatively pointless) fact of what name was actually used in the newspapers in the early 19th century. The fact that one of the modern parties is called "Republican" just bolsters the case, since it avoids confusion. In any case, 95% of the educated adults in the US know this party as the "DRP" - though whether an encyclopedia ought to refect this or the literal fact is very debatable.
But to say that the "DRP" is more the forerunner of the Democrats than the Republicans is misleading as well - Jacksonian democracy may seem closer to Jeffersonian democracy than to Lincoln's abolitionism, but then again, it was separated by fewer years. Certainly today the case is muddy. Republicans in pro-states-rights middle America seem to have inherited more of Jefferson's legacy than the urban ideals driving modern Democratic politics (though both sides seem to be steeped in competing forms of Lincoln's moral fervor).
In any case, I linked to this article from the Hamilton article, which refered to the "Republican party" (linked here) as well as to the "Republican party (linked to the GOP article) in the same paragraph. I was previously aware of the historical accuracy of calling Jefferson a "Republican" but nonetheless my first instict was to change it, since it is confusing and out of the norm. Sure, some ultramodern middle school texts have reverted to this - though not the one at my school six years ago - but ours also credited the Iroquois for inventing democracy. Just because history textbooks have changed something in the last 10 years doesn't make it more true - in fact, it makes me less likely to believe it, if anything, since there has been such a violent flurry of revisionism in school texts in recent years. I found it jarring that the text of that article referred to the Republican Party as the party of Jefferson and would have fixed it, except that I have no wish to get drawn into the flame war underway on THAT page.
In any event, if we are going to keep the name of the article as one thing, then the links to it should say the same thing. We are trying to create an encyclopedia, and on a point like this - where there is a pretty sound argument for doing it either way - the value of consistency probably is paramount. It is dodgy to grugingly agree to keep the old name, but then sneak around using the other name in all other articles, where the discussion is bifurcated. That is even worse - we leave the confusing text, AND link to an inaccurate name.
I suggest that - since it seems to have stuck - that we keep the name DRP as it is now, and explain the naming issue at the top of the article - then use Republican the rest of the way. That seems to be the status quo. BUT - the links from the other articles should say, in the text, "DRP," since that is the naming convention used in the title. Not everyone will be happy with this but it is consistent, and fully informative for anyone who reads the article. Cheers Kgdickey 02:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
As we have seen the term "Democratic-Republican Party" is highly confusing because it was not used at the time, and is not now used in 90% of textbooks, and can only confuse people who think it is some sort of coalition. The "Jeffersonian Republican Party" solves all the problems--it was used at the time, it is used in textbooks, it leads to no confusion with the GOP. (The term "Early Republican Party" was never used by anybody--the one book with that in the title deals with 1850s.) Rjensen 10:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to stick with the compromise, but I don't like the title of the article. I've always known the party as the Democratic-Republican Party. How do we know that 90% of textbooks don't use D-RP? From what I've learned in school, the "Democratic Party" name comes from Andrew Jackson's peeling away from the D-RP. This was just a few concerns. -- myselfalso 19:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Talk:Early Republican Party (United States) → Talk:Democratic-Republican Party (United States) – I erred when trying to sync the talk pages with what I thought had been a move of the article originally at Democratic-Republican Party (United States) to Early Republican Party (United States). … Please share your opinion at Talk:Early Republican Party (United States). DLJessup ( talk) 21:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
On the substantive issue, early Republican Party is a bad choice, simply because WP's software will make it appear the non-existent Early Republican Party. This is aside from all issues on what the article should be called, on which my position has not changed. Septentrionalis 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Vegaswikian 21:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
No one ever uses the term "Early Republican Party" so it has no place in an Encyclopedia. Much better is "Jeffersonian Republican party" which is in widespread use among scholars and textbooks, and creates no confusion with the GOP. (There is one book on the Early Republican Party by Crandall and it deals with the GOP in the 1850s, exactly the confusion we want to avoid. Rjensen 00:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Sam has set the ball rolling (to quote a different party). It looks like the AfD will succeed, so we might as well set out positions. I would at least wait to contact WP:RM, or take any other action, until it passes, as looks likely.
The fundamental consideration here is that Republican Party and Republican Party (United States) are both unavailable for this article; arguments which tend to prove that it ought to be so named are therefore pointless. All the names that could be used instead have disadvantages; but Democratic-Republican Party has the fewest:
Democratic-Republicans is shorter, and has the advantage of not claiming this body to be a party in the modern sense, so it would be my other choice. Septentrionalis 18:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The Democratic Republicans spent a long time denying that they were a party; so did the Federalists. They used various names for themselves and their friends, including "Jeffersonians", "Republicans", and "Democrats"; "Democratic-Republicans" is one of these.
The current OED, btw, accepts "Democratic Party", and defines it as Name of the political party originally called Anti-Federal and afterwards Democratic-Republican, initially favouring strict interpretation of the Constitution with regard to the powers of the general government and of individual States.. with citations from 1800 and 1812; their first citation of "Republican" is from 1806 and is clearly hostile: Benjamin Tallmadge saying "Our exclusive republican Brethren, those dear Lovers of the people." Septentrionalis 17:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The contemporary situation was summarized thus: "There are two parties, which style themselves Federal republicans and Democratic republicans, but who speaking of each other leave out the word republican and call each other Federalists and Democrats". (DAE, citing Fortescue Cuming's Western Tour, 1810) For an example of this, see George Washington's letter of 30 September 1798, when he was feeling partisan in retirement. (I observe that the editors of Washington's diary use "Democratic", unmodified, without caution or explanation [51] Septentrionalis 17:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia online from Thomas Jefferson Collection Electronic Text Center, U of Virginia Library
At least in the case of the Progressive Parties it's handled in this manner:
Progressive Party (United States, 1912)
Progressive Party (United States, 1924)
Progressive Party (United States, 1948)
Perhaps Republican Party (United States, 1792) is a possible alternative? Still, using the Republican appellation introduces problems in thousands of other Wikipedia articles that still use the Democratic-Republican terminology and may introduce some confusion to readers upon supplantation, as well as in regards to the Republican Party of the 1850s that still bares the name.
Anyway, and either way, at some point in the future I'll get around to adding a paragraph on the usage of "Democratic Republican" and "Democratic" by the party into this article. Settler 09:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Republican Party (United States, 1792) sounds like an approach that can remove this roadblock, Democratic-Republican is clearly unworkable. Skyemoor 18:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Was employed after 1800, if not earlier. All attempts to expunge this from the historical record and article will be met with correction by me. Settler 20:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Thomas Jefferson called his party "Republican." The parties didn't have conventions at that time, so Jefferson's writings provide the most offical definition of the party's name. I don't see why a name change would create any problem with ambiguities or references in other articles. Just redirect from "Democratic-Republican Party" to "Republican Party (Jeffersonian)" or "Republican Party (1792-1825)". Aside from the fact that it wasn't the actual name of the party, the phrase "Democratic-Republican Party" has confused many people into thinking that the Democrats and Republicans were factions of a Democratic-Republic Party that split and evolved into the modern Democratic and Republican parties. The Jeffersonian Republican Party split into the Whigs and the Jacksonians. There was no question of one faction being more democratic or republican than the other. Both groups were variously called "republican" and "democratic." It took the Jacksonians over ten years to settle on "Democratic Party" as their official name. The split was not ideological, but related strictly to opposition or support for Jackson, who was better known as a war hero than for any political view he held. The modern Republican Party was founded as an anti-slavery group in 1854. In short, the idea of Democrats and Republicans as two opposed groups or parties didn't arise for more a generation after the original Republican Party had dissolved and the issues involved were not connected to the 1825 split. Kauffner 06:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Too say Democratic-Republican would go against any usage of the terms used from the start. Republican solves that, and Republican (United States 1792) would resolve any confusion. Skyemoor 14:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Is the following a confusion, or is it deliberate?
This is unsourced. More seriously, it is obviously false. In 1792, Jefferson and Madison were still contending that of course they didn't belong to a party; Hamilton might. The quotations above show Jefferson did not use "republican party" until 1802, and even then he didn't use it as a proper noun, with capitalization, but as a generic term. Septentrionalis 20:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
here's the critical letter of Jefferson from 1792: TO T. M. RANDOLPH, JR. PHILADELPHIA, November 16, 1792. An attempt has been made to give further extent to the influence of the Executive over the Legislature, by permitting the heads of departments to attend the House and explain their measures viva voce. But it was negatived by a majority of 35 to 11, which gives us some hope of the increase of the republican vote. (note: ie Republican vote in Congress) However, no trying question enables us yet to judge, nor indeed is there reason to expect from this Congress many instances of conversion, though some will probably have been effected by the expression of the public sentiment in the late election. For, as far as we have heard, the event has been generally in favor of republican, and against the aristocratical candidates. (note: Republican candidates in 1792 election) In this State the election has been triumphantly carried by the republicans; their antagonists having got but 2 out of 11 members, and the vote of this State can generally turn the balance. Freneau's paper is getting into Massachusetts, under the patronage of Hancock; and Samuel Adams, and Mr. Ames, the colossus of the monocrats and paper men, will either be left out or hard run. The people of that State are republican: but hitherto they have heard nothing but the hymns and lauds chanted by Fenno. (note: J stresses role of party newspapers). Rjensen 20:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Jefferson Conference with President Washington August the 6th, 1793. regarding "what is called the republican party here," ...I could undertake to assure him [Washington], from my intimacy with that party in the late Congress, that there was not a view in the republican party as spread over the United States, which went to the frame of the Government.... He [Washington] said he believed the views of the republican party were perfectly pure, but when men put a machine into motion, it is impossible for them to stop it exactly where they would choose" So we have Washington and Jefferson discussing the "republican party" and using those words in 1793. Rjensen 21:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This edit is a marked improvement. Thanks. Septentrionalis 21:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"that with respect to the spirit of party that was taking place under the operations of the Government, I was sensible of its existence…that in one party note: Republicans—but no name used there might be a few who, retaining their original disaffection to the Government, might still wish to destroy it, but that they would lose their weight with their associates by betraying any such hostile purposes; that although it was pretty certain that the other note: Federalists, no name used were, in general, unfriendly to republican Government, and probably aimed at a gradual approximation of ours to a mixed monarchy, yet the public sentiment was so strongly opposed to their views, and so rapidly manifesting itself, that the party could not long be expected to retain a dangerous influence.... [as to successor to Washington:] With respect to Mr. Adams, his monarchical principles...with his late conduct on the representation bill, had produced such a settled dislike among republicans every where, and particularly in the Southern States, that he seemed to be out of the question. Rjensen 23:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"while most political science textbooks prefer Democratic Republican." I didn't see the evidence for this claim, who did the research? Skyemoor 10:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
http://wps.ablongman.com/long_edwards_gab_8/0,10654,2189791-,00.html
The Niles Register is a wonderful source, but it was not partisan. The ANB says, " So determined was he to be objective and thorough in his task that he scorned influence from politicians, endorsed no individual political candidates, rejected all advertisements, and refused all anonymous materials. " Stephen M. Zeigler. "Niles, Hezekiah"; http://www.anb.org/articles/16/16-01202.html; American National Biography Online Feb. 2000. Access Date: Tue Oct 3 22:49:21 MDT 2006 The DAB article by Boroadus Mitchell says: " In politics, Niles was a Jeffersonian until 1816 or 1817, when he described himself as a no-party man. On Jan. 10, 1824, he wrote: "I cannot believe that either [Jackson or Calhoun] will be elected, and should regret votes thrown away. I esteem both, personally and politically; and though my private wish is rather for Mr. Adams, I shall be content to accept any other than Mr. Crawford." When Jackson came into office in 1829, Niles differed sharply with his policies, and became a Whig. " Rjensen 04:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I simplified the footnotes by moving some of the full reference titles that were there into the Reference section. The usage of templates and more formal citations, which seemed like a good idea at the time when I introduced them into the article, was beginning to clutter it; so I reduced their usage within the article. Settler 02:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The view that Athenian government was a form of anarchy was general during the time period considered here (i.e. pre- George Grote) and not particular to William Mitford. If you want to single out one historian, Edward Gibbon was more widely read and influential than Mitford. It's a view that can be traced back to Thucydides, who was first translated into English by Thomas Hobbes in 1628.( This is my source. [Subscription required.]) It is striking ironic that the Federalists used the word " democracy" in a derogatory way. They would have had first-hand experience with New England town meetings, whose structure was very similar to that of the Athenian government. Kauffner 01:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Madison used capital R to refer to the Republican party: To Madison to Jefferson, March 2d, 1794. I see by a paper of last evening that even in New York a meeting of the people has taken place, at the instance of the Republican party, and that a committee is appointed for the like purpose. [from Smith, ed, The Republic of Letters: The Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1776-1826 (1994) vol 2 p 832 Rjensen 14:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This is sufficiently confusing to me that I'm not sure whether I even disagree with it. It certainly can be read: "The Jeffersonians took the lead, but the Federalists were first." which is a contradiction. If it means, as I guess, that the DR's used most devices of partisanship first, that would require much more explicit citation, because it is clearly controversial; the common understanding appears to be that the Federalists had the first Philadelphia party paper, for example. Septentrionalis 17:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This is better than Republican Party; it is at least a name found in the DR correspondence. I have now read through Cunningham 1957, and almost all his quotations (all, of course, by March 1801) have some form of republican (never, however, Republican Party, so capped). Rjensen and I have gone into this at some length. There is also an issue of technical accuracy: "Republican party" was not the earliest, the "original name", even assuming that means anything for an informal league, not a body corporate.
In this form, Skyemoor's hobby horse is merely unnecessary and pointless repetition, not active misrepresentation; I wish to acknowledge the improvement. Septentrionalis 23:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I find this curiosity fascinating; and it makes clear that Republican and Federalist were adjectives in the 1790's. And with such things, it is usually better to include them correctly than wait until some helpful newbie comes across, e.g., a primary source about Virginia "American Republicans" supporting Adams. Better to get it right once than go into a include-delete-protest-explain cycle. Septentrionalis 18:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
"The Democratic-Republican Party was one of the political parties that dominated U.S. political life during the First Party System, from the 1790s to the 1820s. The party was originally called the Republican Party, but the name evolved over time, and the party was known as Democratic-Republican Party by 1815."
This pretty much sums up the situation, though one could say "republican party" or "Republican party" instead. It is concise and does not leave the reader with ambiguity about how it evolved. Skyemoor 23:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
"The first official name came with the first national Democratic convention in 1832 which used "Republican Party."" Why was this removed? Is it incorrect? Skyemoor 15:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure this is correct in the 1790s. A more correct sentence would read "Republicans generally supported good relations with France (before 1801) and opposed an alliance with Great Britain, preferring to remain independent of either nation". Thoughts? Skyemoor 10:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
"although "democrat" and "republican" had been used almost equivalently in 1793 (and, for the political philosophy, earlier.)" Who was using these two names almost equivalently in 1793? Jefferson? Madison? No. Other members of congress that tended to vote with Madison? Provide citations please. "Others", such as the democratic societies? That would belong in that article then. See Malone on the subject; III, 162,
"They referred to themselves as Demcorats again by 1812. [1]" This is plainly wrong as worded. I've provided references that show both Madison and Jefferson using Republican and republican when referring to the party after 1812, so this would have to be worded with a much more narrow focus to be considered accurate.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skyemoor ( talk • contribs) .
DEAR SIR,--I received, by the last mail, your welcome favor of the 10th instant. The newspapers had prepared me for the triumphant vote which restores a prodigal sister to the bosom of the Republican family, and evinces a return of grateful feelings for a revolutionary worthy. I congratulate you very sincerely on this event, with every wish that your administration may be as happy to yourself as I am confident it will be propitious to the welfare of those who have called you into it; and I may add, of those who resisted the call. The people are now able every where to compare the principles and policy of those who have borne the name of Republicans or Democrats with the career of the adverse party; and to see and feel that the former are as much in harmony with the spirit of the Nation and the genius of the Government as the latter was at variance with both.
1. The act of worship. 2. Profound love or regard.
Hamilton clearly expressed profound regard for Britain and the British governing structure. Unless you choose to disagree....? The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved October 29, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/adoration
The national party gradually assumed this name, until it split into Democrat and Republican in the 1920s.
This article should not attempt to include any generalizations about twentieth-century American politics. Least of all this one, which is thoroughly debateable: an anon already altered populist to centrist. As a statement about the early twentieth century, which was presumably the intention of populist, it is thoroughly dubious: that TR the Regulator more market-oriented than Bryan, Parker, or Wilson may be arguable, but not here, and not in Wikipedia's voice. Septentrionalis 17:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Everything I've read mentions caution about becoming entwined in alliances with European powers, but no inherent 'hostility'. And the relationship changed over time, so a brushstroke phrase removes too many complexities to be valid on its face. There were serious aggravations from a number of British actions, including impressment, neutral rights, and failure to live up key points in prior treaties that ultimately culminated in the declaration of war. But to use the phrase 'especially hostile' implies an undeserved aggressive belligerence, so please share with us the evidence you have assembled to support that position. Skyemoor 18:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Skyemoor should remember that WP:MOS is a {{ guideline}}; it's not set in stone, it does have exceptions.
Beyond that, it doesn't say what he thinks it does; there is no warrant there for bolding a confusing name like Republican Party or an anachronism like Jeffersonian Republicans.
- The Río de la Plata (from Spanish: “River of Silver”), also known by the English name River Plate, as in the Battle of the River Plate, or sometimes (La) Plata River.
If this continues, I will mark and defends tags guarding against these misrepresentations. Septentrionalis 01:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Mathews Dictionary of Americanisms (1951) p 902 has several cites for "Jeffersonian" in use 1799-1804 to designate a Republican candidate in state elections
In order to effectively use [ online article], one must first register at at http://journals.cambridge.org . I too thought the link was broken on first try.
"The Republican Party, founded by Jefferson and Madison, was swiftly renamed the Democratic Republican Party and its successor, in 1828, the Democratic Party." Settler, which part of Dahl's quote do you take exception to? He doesn't give a timeframe for the transformation from Republican to Democratic-Republican, so "swiftly" is therefore relative and ambiguous. Skyemoor 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Pmanderson|Septentrionalis had agreed to the wording of the first sentence (he wrote it himself) then choose to simultaneously counter the usage of Jefferson, Madison, historians, history textbooks, and WP:MOS by removing "Party" and bolding of the alternate names, hoping to swing world opinion instantly in his direction. Fortunately, he does not have control over the world's libraries and the internet, so the evidence against his position remains as strong as ever. Skyemoor 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Why change the title: because historians have changed in the last 5-10 years. The new monographs and tectbooks do not use the D-R terminology. Users who have a current textbook will be confused and that is a bad thing for Wiki. Our best asset is that we keep current-- unlike paper encyclopedias whose articles are often 10 or 20 years old. Rjensen 21:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Were there any other Democratic-Republican Parties? If not, there's no need to add "United States" in front. -- Jiang | Talk 12:21, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It is unnecessarily inaccurate to refer to this party as the "Democratic-Republican" party. It was called the Republican party from its formation under Thomas Jefferson until the split in the party during the time of Andrew Jackson (in the 1820s). Only then did there exist a party called the "Democratic-Republican" party (as opposed to the faction headed by John Quincy Adams, the National Republicans). And this name did not last long, quickly being shortened to the Democratic party.
It is much more accurate to call this party the "Republican" party and then set a footnote that says that this is not the same as the modern Republican party. -- acsenray | Talk 17:30, 7 Feb 2004 (EST)
Naming this article "Republican Party" or something similar would be a violation of Wikipedia naming conventions. Most people know of the party as the "Democratic-Republican Party." Wikipedia's naming convention's page says, "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Another way to summarize the overall principle of Wikipedia's naming conventions: Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists."
[2] - JP
Jefferson's inaugural address includes "...we are all Republicans...I don't think there's a better source on how Jefferson saw his politial affiliation than Jefferson himself. Jmorello
The page says that the Federalist party has no ties to any modern party, but this is not true. The Federalists and the Modern Repbublican party shared a handful of viewpoints: both favored tax cuts and other financial benefits for the upper class and small buisness, in the interest of stimulating the economy and creating jobs. The Federalists were more conservative in general, they believed that the government was to be supported regardless of your own personal preference.
I am not saying that the Federalists and the Republicans are the same party, or even that the Republican Party is a descendant of the Federalist party. I am saying that it is extreme to say that the Federalist party has no ties whatsoever to the modern Republican party. At the very least, they were both the conservative parties of their times. The page should be changed to say that there is a very loose resemblance between the Federalists and the Republicans. -- BMS 02:50, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What happened to this text:
Why was it deleted from the opening section? -- JW1805 (Talk) 04:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
At the Democratic Party's Web site, the Party claims its beginning in 1792. [4] I believe this article as it stands now trifles with history. It should at least acknowledge that the Democratic Party believes it is the inheritor of the old Democratic-Republican. Most American historians agree. I think it's rather weasely to claim that both parties have an equal claim on a heritage from the Democratic-Republican Party. GriotGriot
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help) On page 212, it reads: "In the 1820's, after the death of the Federalists (see p. 188), the Republican party split to form two new parties: the Democrats and the National Republicans (renamed the Whigs in the 1830's)." Thus I have at least one counterexample to your claim that "pratically [sic] every American history book traces the beginning of today's Democratic Party in the Demo-Repub Party".
Let's try to clear up some confusion here. First, a political party web site is a poor source for scholarly information, because all political parties have a vested interest in putting themselves in the best possible light. Second, it is incorrect to say that the Democratic-Republican Party (a.k.a. the original Republican Party) IS today's Democratic Party, because the old Republican Party split up. However, it is correct to say that the Democratic Party and the National Republican Party were directly descended from the old Republican Party. (E.g. I am directly descended from my parents. I have a sister. She is also directly descended from my parents. The fact that my sister is directly descended from my parents in no way diminishes the fact that I am as well.) However, the National Republican Party didn't survive. Only the Democratic Party survived. Therefore, the Democratic Party is the only party today that is directly descended from the old Republican Party. Instead of disproving this point, the quote above from The National Experience: A History of the United States actually reinforces it. - JP
I would suggest that today's Democratic Party, with its emphasis on big government to solve the world's problems (which Jefferson despised) really began in the 1930's under Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Yes the ideals of the Democratic-Republican party are contradictory to those of the modern democratic party. The modern democratic party puts a large amount of power into the government and redistributes wealth and property, these are measures contradictory to the ideals of a limited government. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, its founders, were of the primary writers of the constitution. The origional US constitution, sharing the exact ideals of the democratic-republican party(you may note our government is a democratic republic), values the right of property considerably more then the modern democratic party. The beginning of the democratic party was with Andrew Jackson, he even made the modern symbol. He was considered stubborn and someone called him a jackass in his campaign, he liked it so much he made it the party's symbol. -Uvirith
Political parties do not change overtime, the status of whether they are 'liberal' or 'conservative' changes based on what the status quo of the current government is, but their ideals remain the same. At the time slavery was a problem, the republicans were liberals because their ideals were against slavery and as it was an idea they wanted to change the government with, it was a liberal idea, but then once slavery was abolished, it was the status quo and was now a conservative ideal. In modern day politics the republicans are liberal in some things and conservative on others, they wish to make abortion illegal which is a conservative idea, but they also want to eliminate gun control, and make marijuana and prostitution legal which are all liberal ideas by the current status quo. A political party's ideals will always remain the same over time, the difference is how they are classified, by either as liberal or conservative, a conservative ideal being one in the status quo and a liberal idea being one they would like to instill in the government. Their ideals never changed. Anti-elitism is a belief about social structure, but has nothing to do with government, unless, like the democrats you try to eradicate elitism by redistributing wealth through the government. However, The Democratic-Republican party did not go about it in this way, and didn't violate property rights. Andrew Jackson having created a new party in a time where the party still existed, obviously would not have created a new party from an existing party if he had ideals consistent to those of the Democratic-Republican party.
It should also be noted that Thomas Jefferson hated Andrew Jackson, he is quoted speaking of how he would greatly fear seeing a man who so blatantly abuses the powers of the constitution in office, even in the archaic political Arena, Andrew Jackson's party was a competitor to Jefferson's ideals.
Actually anti-elitism is contradictory to the ideals of the democratic party. The economic model of the democratic party is that of socialism, in a socialist society there is no means for the rich to generate wealth for the poor, the rich live in the lap of luxury sacrificing only enough to support the poor's ability to live, and the poor eat shit on a lowly level of society, never gaining the opportunity to become anything but poor.
I have never read anywhere of the Republican Party laying claim to a heritage spiritual or otherwise from the Democratic-Republican Party. Let's remember that the States Rights argument was made originally by Southern Democrats starting shortly before the Civil War, and that it was Southern Democrats who supported States Rights up until quite recently in the 1960s, when the Democratic Party abandoned States Rights and the Republican Party took up this mantle as part of is southern strategy.
I propose removing this section about both parties having an equal claim to the Demo-Republican Party until someone can demonstrate that the Republican Party makes this claim. I have never heard any Republicans make it. GriotGriot
You might ask why they took the name "Republican". Some of the GOP founders had been closely associated with Henry Clay, the Republican leader in Congress circa 1800-1820 who wanted to keep the name going. Gould in his standard history of the GOP (203): p 14 "Why did the name "Republican" gain such favor? [in 1854] Simply as a title it connected voters with the original political organization of Thomas Jefferson in the 1790s." Rjensen 08:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe that it is accurate to assert "only the Democratic Party has a direct link to the original Democratic-Republican Party, and indeed the party says on its official website that it was founded in 1792 by Thomas Jefferson.[1] The Democratic Party is often called 'the party of Jefferson'; whereas the Republican Party, which was founded in 1854, is called 'the party of Lincoln.'" No proof is provided to validate the claim. Just because the Democratic Party is referred to as "the party of Jefferson" does not mean that it in any way reflects the attitudes of Thomas Jefferson and the early Republicans. Furthermore, do you really believe that a party website is a legitimate source of information?
Oh no. Not again. This discussion has already been had twice, and at length. Twice. Let's leave as is. Griot 19:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh no. Not again. AGAIN. This subject has been rehashed many times. The Democratic Party has a genuine link to the old Democratic-Republican Party, and indeed the Demo Party believes strongly in this link. Why delete it from this article? Why go around and around this subject again? Griot 17:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I checked 8 current college US history textbooks that have online tables of contents 1 uses Dem-Rep (see #3) 6 use Republican 1 uses Jeffersonians (#6)
Longman: http://www.ablongman.com/catalog/academic/discipline/0,,72158,00.html
ch 5 has section Federalists and Republicans: The Rise of Political Parties.
ch 9. Revolutionary Legacies, 1789—1803. Competing Political Visions in the New Nation. Federalism and Democratic-Republicanism in Action.
ch 8 student guide Controversy between Federalist supporters of the national government and the emerging Jeffersonian Republican opposition first erupted over domestic policies designed to stabilize the nation's finances and promote its economic development. Those policies revealed deep-seated conflicts between economic interests and raised urgent questions of how the new constitution should be interpreted
ch 8 = Republican Ascendancy: The Jeffersonian Vision.
from Bedford St Martin http://www.bedfordstmartins.com/history/bcs/index.html
Jefferson's Agrarian Vision Hamilton's financial programs divided the Federalists into two irreconcilable political parties and led to the emergence of the Republicans, a group headed by Madison and Jefferson.
Republicans in Power 1800-1824 http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/roark/pages/bcs-main.asp?v=&s=09000&n=00010&i=09010.00&o= so the textbooks vote is 7-1 against D-R and 6-2 in favor of Republicans Rjensen 14:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
You are arguing convenience should be the best measure. That is certainly not the way to refine an encyclopedia. Skyemoor 01:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm late to the party, but I certainly agree with Rjensen. The term "Democratic-Republican" is mostly not used anymore, and is anachronistic. I'd also prefer Republican Party (Jeffersonian), or something similar. Even if we don't move the article, we certainly shouldn't use the term "Democratic-Republican" any more than is necessary for basic disambiguation. john k 17:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
If the Republican Party ceased to exist after 1816, why do so many sources say that various candidates from the 1820s and 1830s were Republicans or Democratic-Republicans? Are we sure the history of the party ends in 1816? Kaldari 19:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Some of this is discussed in the above sections, but I just wanted to summarize it separately here. I added a "Disputed" tag because some information in the article contradicted information given in the Encyclopedia Britannica. See the article here, which says that the party was originally called "Republican", but "... the Federalists soon branded Jefferson's followers “Democratic-Republicans,” attempting to link them with the excesses of the French Revolution, the Republicans officially adopted the derisive label in 1798." Now this is a very specific statement from a very reputable source. The article as written had said that "Democratic-Republican" was "never actually used" and further down in the article said it was "rarely" used. I then corrected this discrepancy. My edit was modified by a user saying that "official name 1798 not accepted by most sources". I am going to rvt back, since I consider Britannica to be a reputable source. If someone can provide a simmilarly-reputable source that contradicts this information, then we can discuss it here. -- JW1805 (Talk) 17:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I recently made an edit, and six minutes later Rjensen reverted to the previous version, because I had cited Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta. His reasoning was "do not use encyclopedias-- use scholarly sources". My edit was in complete accordance with the Wikipedia guidelines. [6] If Rjensen believes that Wikipedia guidelines suggest otherwise, I ask him to please point me to the exact page, section, paragraph, and sentence. If he cannot do this, then I ask him to undo his reversion. If he disputes the facts, that's fine, but don't say not to use references that are acceptable sources according to Wikipedia guidelines. - JP
Britannica seems to disagree with itself about when the name "Democratic-Republican Party" was used. Britannica's article on the National Republican Party states, "U.S. political party formed after what had been the Republican (or Jeffersonian Republican) party split in 1825. The Jeffersonian Republicans had been the only national political party following the demise of the Federalists during the War of 1812. During the contested election of 1824, followers of Henry Clay and John Quincy Adams began calling themselves National Republicans, while backers of Andrew Jackson emerged as Democratic Republicans. By the election of 1828, the Jacksonians were simply called Democrats." - JHP 08:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is the best treatment I have seen of party names. NOTE it refers to 1820-40 period but sheds a lot of light on Jeffesron's party and what happened to it. RJ The Presidential Campaign of 1832. By Samuel Rhea Gammon Johns Hopkins Press. 1922. Page Number: 155-161 (footnotes omitted). APPENDIX I PARTY NOMENCLATURE To determine exactly when the terms "Democratic" and "Democratic Republican," on the one hand, and the term "National Republican," on the other, came to be applied to the followers of Jackson and to those of Adams and Clay respectively, is difficult. This cannot be categorically determined since usage varied in different States. Indeed the only sweeping statement applicable is that there never was any uniformity or consistency generally displayed by either party in its self-designation down to 1830; even as late as 1832 the Jacksonians referred to themselves officially as the "Republican party." 1 The chief causes for the slow development of distinctive party names were: first, the reluctance of the various factions into which the old Republican party was split by the campaign of 1824 to regard themselves, or even to seem to appear, as other than the true Republican party; second, the fact that the campaigns of 1824 and 1828 were so largely based upon the personalities of the candidates instead of upon their political principles. Thus during the campaign of 1824 the Adams, Clay, Calhoun, Crawford and Jackson factions respectively considered themselves as parts of the old Republican party as it had existed under Madison and Monroe. Party nomenclature began to take distinctive shape, locally at least, during the campaign of 1824. At the beginning of that contest the one party name in existence was "Repub lican." Indeed the party had been mostly so styled since ____________________ 1 See "Proceedings of a Convention of Republican Delegates . .. held at Baltimore, . . . May, 1832," History Pamphlets, vol. 293, Johns Hopkins University Library. p-155 1812, as is shown by Jefferson's letters and by Niles' Register. 2 As the Adams and Clay factions inclined more toward each other in their advocacy of a nationalistic policy as to internal improvements, and still considered themselves and were considered within the Republican party, the descriptive adjective "national" began to be applied to them to differentiate them from the rather more particularistic followers of Jackson and Crawford. As far as can be ascertained the term "National Republican" was first applied to the Adams-Clay followers in New York during the latter stages of the campaign of 1824 when they united in the state legislature in order to defeat the Regency's effort to choose Crawford electors. Van Buren speaks of it thus: "The 'high minded' [a little group of anti-Clintonian Federalists] espoused the cause of Mr. Adams zealously, and the, feelings produced, or rather revived, by that contest carried them back into the federal ranks -then called National Republicans -where the survivors are still [ 1854] serving as Whigs." 3 However this may have been, the term was not at all used in contemporary newspapers and letters. In New York politics the name "Democratic" was also revived just prior to the opening of the national campaign of 1824. In 1818 there had been a split in the Republican party in the State, Clinton leading one faction and Van Buren the other. 4 The latter was dubbed by its enemies the "Bucktails," and about the same time began to refer to itself as the "Democratic" party. 5 The term "Republican," however, was still used to indicate both "Bucktails" and Clintonians. 6 As the Albany Regency under Van Buren's direction grew in strength and its party in the State became dominant, the term "Democratic" came to mean the Regency's party. p-156 In Pennsylvania down to 1823 the general party term was "Republican" as distinguished from "Federalist." As the democracy of the State became more and more militant in its support of Jackson, the popular meetings of his followers all over the State used the term "Democrats" to describe themselves and their political principles and referred to the political body in which they claimed membership as the "democratic republican party." 7 The state convention which nominated Jackson for president was composed of delegates appointed by the "democratic republicans of this state." 8 At the same time however the convention referred to the congressional caucus as being made up of a "minority of the republican members of Congress" and its action as being therefore a departure from "republican party" established usage. 9 This indicates that the party at large in the country was still styled the "Republican" and that Jackson's Pennsylvania supporters considered themselves as part of it. So far as any generalization is possible from the above and other instances, it appears that both general groups -the followers of Crawford and Jackson on the one hand, and those of Adams and Clay on the other -into which the old Republican party was showing a tendency to divide by the end of 1823, still regarded themselves as Republicans and within the party thus designated. The terms "Democratic," "Democratic Republican" and "National Republican" had come into being as party names, but their use was confined to localities, States at most. The use of the first of these seems to have been confined to the Regency party in New York, that of the second to the Jacksonians in Pennsylvania, while the third was a designation for the Adams-Clay faction in New York plus the remnant of Federalists who joined them. Certainly there was no general use of any party name except "Republican." p. -157 Throughout the campaign of 1828 the same characteristics were manifested. The elimination of Crawford, the relegation of Calhoun and Clay to places of secondary importance, the election of Adams, and the union between his and Clay's followers operated to draw the line more sharply between the two opposing factions into which the shattered old Republican party had coalesced by the end of 1825. No other party name than "Republican," however, was generally used by either faction and each considered itself the true Republican party, the direct lineal descendant of that of Madison and Monroe. 10 There is no evidence that either faction regarded its opponent as other than a schismatic Republican group; indeed all the evidence points to this as the case. Clay stated this point of view exactly in a letter to Webster near the close of 1826 as follows: "We really have in this country no other than a Republican party. Names may be gotten up or kept up in particular states for local or personal purposes, but at this time there are but two parties in the Union, that of the administration and the opposition." 11 In local practice throughout the country the use of party nomenclature was still inconsistent and varied. The single definite fact and also the only definite distinction in the use of names, as is shown in contemporary newspapers, was the nation-wide use of "the administration party" and "the opposition party," 12 or "the friends, of General Jackson" and "the friends of the administration." 13 Conventions were spoken of as "Adams" and "Jackson" conventions; 14 a voter was an "Adams man" or a "Jackson man"; 15 and the tickets nominated for state and local offices were known as "the Adams ticket" and "the Jackson ticket," the individual p158 candidate being the "Adams candidate" or the " Jackson candidate." 16 Aside from these terms based on the persons rather than upon their principles, there was no consistency or uniformity as to party designation. The Jackson paper in New Hampshire still referred to the supporters of the two parties as "Republicans" and "Federalists." 17 The Albany Argus spoke of "devotion to the republican cause and the interests of the democratic party" in the same sentence and connection. 18 After Jackson and Calhoun had become the party candidates in 1828, the Argus and the United States Telegraph each headed a column daily with "Republican National Ticket" over the names of the two men. 19 The Richmond Enquirer used the term "Republican" to refer to the Jackson party where the reference was unmistakable, but where it was not clear, used the conventional "Adams" or "Jackson" to distinguish. 20 Only in Pennsylvania was there a definite drift toward the use of "Democratic" as a distinctive term. The term "democratic republican" had been used to describe the Jacksonians from the time the State began to stampede to him in 1823. 21 Hence "democratic republican" continued as the term mainly used in the campaign of 1828. Notwithstanding this there was a tendency to use "democratic" alone as the party designation. This tendency is illustrated by the references to the state convention at Harrisburg which was referred to by the party papers as the "Democratic Convention at Harrisburg." 22 It appears also in the convention's p-159 nomination of Jackson "as the democratic candidate of Pennsylvania" for president. 23 As to the Adams party, if Van Buren's memory was correct after twenty-five years, the name "National Republican" had been in existence since the campaign of 1824, 24 but there was certainly no general, and apparently no local, use of it during the campaign of 1828. As has been said the party was generally referred to among its friends as the "Republican" party if the reference was unmistakable, otherwise as the "friends of the administration" or "friends of Adams." During the campaign of 1832, the use of party names rested more on party principles, hence for the most part the names of Jackson and Clay were discarded as descriptive adjectives. As nearly as can be determined, the name "National Republican" became current during the year 1830, about the time that party launched Clay's campaign. 25 Niles begins using it and it begins to appear in letters about the end of 1830 and the beginning of 1831. 26 In the first two months of 1831 it became fixed party usage. During the process of effecting the party's organization in New York City it was used exclusively; 27 it was also used for the most part by the state conventions held in Connecticut and Maine at this time. 28 "National Republican" received what may be called the final stamp of approval as the party's official title by the National Intelligencer in its issue of February 22, 1831, thus: "National Republican is an excellent designation for a national party in our republican Union. Let it be adopted everywhere, by all who would uphold the Federal Constitution; secure the independence and continuance of the p160 Supreme Court; preserve a sound currency; possess a substantive and enlightened President of the United States; prevent offices from becoming the booty of mere partisans and parasites; and obtain a truly responsible and visible government." 29 Hence it is to be expected, and this was actually the case, that the proceedings of the party's two conventions, that at Baltimore in December, 1831, and that at Washington the following May, should be printed by order of those bodies under the respective titles of "Journal of the National Republican Convention" and "Proceedings of the National Republican Convention of Young Men." 30 During the campaign the use of "Democratic" as a designation for the party increased somewhat in favor with the Jacksonians but did not by any means displace "Republican" as the party's official title. "Democratic Republican" was, however, the most frequently used of the three names, no doubt in order to differentiate the party more sharply from the National Republican. Seward states that "The campaign for 1832 opened with the year 1830. The Republican party, now taking to itself the more radical name of 'the Democratic party,' announced . . . its determination to secure the reelection of Andrew Jackson." 31 Seward's memory here seems at fault since the New York Courier and Enquirer, then staunchly Jacksonian, in the same article referred to the Jackson party by all three names, as "republican party," "democratic party" and "democratic republicans." 32 In Pennsylvania "Democratic Republican" remained the most prevalent term, with "Democratic" used to some extent, 33 and this seems to have been the case p 161 in New Hampshire also. 34 A letter from Richards to McLean shows that the Jackson ticket in Philadelphia "is called simply the Democratic ticket." 35 For all these local variations, and the probable increased use of "Democratic Republican," 36, the official designation of the party remained "Republican." Thus The Globe, the Albany Argus, and the Richmond Enquirer usually referred to their party by the latter name, and Jackson, Kendall and other leaders so designated it in their letters. 37 This official title of the party conclusively appears in the caption of the proceedings of its convention in Baltimore, as "A Convention of Republican Delegates." 38 To generalize categorically concerning this usage, which was so varied and which crystallized so gradually, is venturesome. The following facts, however, seem to stand out with some degree of clearness. As to the designation of the followers of Adams and, later, of Clay, the term "National Republican" may have been coined as early as the campaign of 1824, according to Van Buren, 39 or in that of 1828, according to Seward, 40 but the name certainly did not attain general or official usage before 1830, after Clay's campaign was under way. As to the Jackson party, the designations "Democratic" and "Democratic Republican" were both used in the campaign of 1824," 41 but in a few localities only. The party, like that of Adams and Clay, still regarded itself as the Republican party, and this name continued as the official one to the close of the campaign of 1832, with "Democratic Republican" gaining but not supplanting "Republican" in current usage. [end of Appendix] Rjensen 22:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Jefferson was famous for his attacks on activist judges (esp John Marshall!) which modern day GOP echoes. As for the heritage bit, I think almost everyone refers to Jefferson's heritage with very little mention of Madison, Gallatin, Monroe etc. Peterson (1960) makes that clear as does Wiltse. Rjensen 05:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
1822: We already see the power, installed for life, responsible to no authority (for impeachment is not even a scare-crow), advancing with a noiseless and steady pace to the great object of consolidation. The foundations are already deeply laid by their decisions, for the annihilation of constitutional State rights, and the removal of every check, every counterpoise to the ingulphing power of which themselves are to make a sovereign part. [* * *] Let the future appointments of judges be for four or six years, and removable by the President and Senate. This will bring their conduct, at regular periods, under revision and probation, and may keep them in equipoise between the general and special governments. We have erred in this point, by copying England, where certainly it is a good thing to have the judges independent of the King. But we have omitted to copy their caution also, which makes a judge removable on the address of both legislative houses. That there should be public functionaries independent of the nation, whatever may be their demarit, is a solecism in a republic, of the first order of absurdity and inconsistency. — TITLE: To Wm. T. Barry. EDITION: Washington ed. vii, 256.
The party invented many campaign techniques--there are numerous books and studies that demonstrate this in detail. That is a major contribution and needs to be explained, which I try to do in non-controversial fashion. A number of historians have pointed to Beckley as they key person so he gets appropriate attention. See books by Cunningham, Elkins-McKitrick, Paisley, Chambers, Lipset, Tinkom, and Risjord. Rjensen 01:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The long blockquotes recently added are a bit disruptive to the flow of the article. This isn't Wikisource. Some effort should be made to summarize this material, and link to the full text in the External links or References section. -- JW1805 (Talk) 16:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to bring this up again. Rjensen is totally right that in recent works, "Republican" is overwhelmingly more common than "Democratic-Republican," which is rapidly becoming an obsolete term. I would much prefer to move this article to something like Republican Party (Jeffersonian) or Republican Party (1792-1824), or something.
But if there's a consensus to leave it here, I don't have a serious issue with that. What I do have an issue with is Griot's claim that because the article is here, we have to refer to it as the "Democratic-Republican Party" in every other article on wikipedia. That is ridiculous, and not in line with any wiki policy that I am aware of. john k 03:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've read that. You, so far, have only cited other encyclopedias. Rjensen has cited from numerous textbooks. The latter is a better model for how we should title the article than the former. If you want to demonstrate that it was called the "Democratic-Republican Party" at the time, you'll have to cite something other than an encyclopedia - my understanding is that this term was only used after 1824 for supporters of Jackson. For instance, my copy of the Encyclopedia of American History by Richard B. Morris (a book dating back to 1976, but highly useful, and which refers to the party in question mostly as the Republicans, but occasionally as the Democratic-Republicans) has this to say: Over the winter of 1824-25, the Republican party divided into two groups. The Adams-Clay wing became known as the National Republicans, while the "Jackson men" emerged as the Democratic Republicans. To demonstrate that high school and college textbooks use Democratic-Republicans, you'll have to, you know, cite textbooks, instead of just asserting it. So far, Rjensen surveyed 8 textbooks, 6 of which used "Republicans" and only one of which used "Democratic-Republicans". JP additionally cited a textbook which uses "Democratic-Republican", and provided a scan of a page of it, but did not say what textbook it was, leaving it essentially useless as a citation (it may, for all we know, be the same one that Rjensen found which uses "Democratic-Republican"; or it may be an older edition of a textbook which has since switched to "Republican".) So, yeah, I've read the earlier discussion, and I find it completely unconvincing. You've been particularly unhelpful about citing any useful sources beyond encyclopedias. john k 15:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)\
In terms of usage in other articles, I think the standard should be that we use "Democratic-Republican" in contexts where there might otherwise be confusion with the modern Republican party (lists of officeholders, for instance), and "Republican" in contexts where there is no confusion. Obviously, both names should be mentioned on this page. john k 18:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've done a JSTOR search on the use of the term "Democratic-Republicans" in history journals after 1990 (JSTOR only goes up to about 1999, so this would exclude the most recent usage, but still should be fairly useful). There are 108 results for Democratic-Republican, but let's follow up...
1. "Republicanism in the Age of Democratic Revolution: The Democratic-Republican Societies of the 1790s," by Matthew Schoenbachler, Journal of the Early Republic, 1998. This article uses the term to refer to societies, rather than to the party. It notes in a footnote that the societies were given various names, including "Democratic," "Republican," "Democratic-Republican," "True Republican," "Constitutional," "United Freemen," "Patriotic," "Political," "Franklin," and "Madisonian," but that he will use "Democratic-Republican" to refer to them. However, he refers to the party as the "Republican Party."
2. Review by Charles E. Clark of Richard N. Rosenfeld's American Aurora: A Democratic-Republican Returns. The Suppressed History of Our Nation's Beginnings and the Heroic Newspaper That Tried To Report It. in the Journal of American History, 2000. Whatever the book itself does (It is unclear from the title whether it would refer to the party as the Democratic-Republicans), the review author uses "Republican" to refer to the party.
3. Review by Dean Albertson of Irwin and Debi Unger's Turning Point: 1968, American Historical Review, 1990. This usage is irrelevant to the discussion, referring to Democratic-Republican disputes in the 1960s.
4. Review by William M. Fowler of Gene A. Smith's "For the Purpose of Defense": The Politics of the Jeffersonian Gunboat Program. in the Journal of the Early Republic, 1995. Uses "Democratic Republican" to refer to the party.
5. Review by Harry Ammon of Robert Allen Rutland's The Prediency of James Madison, Journal of American History, 1991. Refers to the party as the "Democratic Republicans"
6. Review by Cathy Matson of John E. Crowley's The Privileges of Independence: Neomercantilism and the American Revolution. Uses "Democratic-Republican" to refer to the party.
7. Review by Marianne Persiaccante of Michael G. Kenny's The Perfect Law of Liberty: Elias Smith and the Providential History of America, uses "Democratic-Republican" to refer to the party.
8. Review by Nicole Etcheson of Donald J. Ratcliffe's Party Spirit in a Frontier Republic: Democratic Politics in Ohio, 1793-1821, refers to the party as "Democratic Republicans"
9. Review by Robert Allen Rutland of Stuart Leibiger's Founding Friendship: George Washington, James Madison, and the Creation of the American Republic, Journal of American History, 2000. Refers only to the "democratic-republican societies," not to the party. :NOT APPLICABLE -- party not named
10. Review by Conan Fischer of Robert Gellatley's The Gestapo and German Society: Enforcing Racial Policy, 1933-1945., English Historical Review, 1994. Obviously an irrelevant reference to the Nazis. :NOT APPLICABLE
11. "The First Party Competition and Southern New England's Public Christianity" by Jonathan D. Sassi, Journal fo the Early Republic, 2001. Uses Democratic-Republican for the Party.
12. Review by Robert M.S. McDonald of The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 28: January 1794 to February 1796, ed. John Catanzariti. Uses the term to refer to the Democratic-Republican Societies, not the party. :NOT APPLICABLE -- party not named
Of the first 12 results, only half use "Democratic-Republican" for the party. Taking that as representative of the results as a whole, we can assume only 54 uses of "Democratic-Republican" to refer to the party in JSTOR since 1990.
Because of the much greater frequency of references to the modern Republican Party, it is pretty hard to figure out how often the Jeffersonian party is being referred to as simply the "Republicans". However, a JSTOR search limited to usage of the term "Republican Party" (and excluding articles which use "Democratic-Republican") in two journals focusing on earlier American history - the Journal of the Early Republic and the William and Mary Quarterly - turns up 73 results. While perhaps half of these actually refer to the modern Republican party in the 19th century, we should remember that this is a much more limited search - it doesn't include references to "Republicans," it doesn't include references to the Republican Party in articles which might mention "Democratic-Republican" in other contexts (as several of the Democratic-Republican articles do), and it only refers to 2 journals, rather than the 38 history journals JSTOR has in total. Which is to say, there are about 54 references in all of JSTOR's history journals to the "Democratic-Republicans" since 1990. In the same time period, there are nearly as many uses of the restrictive phrase "Republican Party" in just two journals. Although it'd be hard to say conclusively, because of the extent to which we're going to be swamped with references to the modern Republicans, it seems to me that this is fairly clearly indicative that Republican is more common in specialist publications than Democratic-Republican. john k 16:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Two more textbooks, courtesy of my roommate, who studies 19th century US history.
Well, you seem determined, in the Democratic Party (United States) article, that we not mention this, so I was making sure.
Some more sources:
All of these books are textbooks or books for a general audience. Most of them, except the one least concerned with political history, use "Republican". john k 01:22, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Er, hello, anybody out there? If the discussion has ceased, I'll post a WP:RM later today. john k 19:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I vote to keep this Democratic-Republican. Changing it to Republican would be needlessly confusing, as this party is different from the modern Republican party. The title should remain the same, if only to differentiate the two. -- Fearfulsymmetry 21:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
What's with all this voting? There's no official "Requested move" yet, as a) I hoped, vainly I think, to deal with this through discussion; and b) one of the main issues is not about the location of this page, but how to refer to the party in the text. Also - is it confusing when any two things have the same name? Should we not refer to the American Whig party as the "Whigs" out of the potential for confusion with the British Whigs who were completely different? john k 21:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
A couple points here on Griot's tactics, which seem to frequently revolve around being wildly misleading (whether on purpose or unintentionally I cannot say):
Here's the basic issue: for me to take Griot seriously at all, he's going to have to provide some actual citations, beyond just other encyclopedias, that use Democratic-Republicans. So far, Rjensen and I have provided more citations of the use of "Democratic-Republican" than Griot has. This is absurd. If Griot chooses not to make any citations, and instead to just continue to spin his jaws in the style noted above, I'm going to propose both a page move and some kind of vote on how to refer to the party independently of where the page is located. (That is, whether we should refer to the party as the "Republicans" even though the article might still remain at "Democratic-Republican" out of lack of a good alternative.) john k 16:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
As to the idea that calling Jefferson's party "Republican" gives credence to the Bush administration in some way, this is absurd. Lincoln was indisputably a Republican, and the Democratic Party at the time of the Civil War was indisputably pretty awful. Does this association make Bush look any better? Does it make FDR look worse? These kind of concerns are insanely subjective, and there's no place for them in an encyclopedia. john k 16:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not following you around. I was discussing your conduct in this article, which has been, in my opinion, marked by use of dishonest debating tactics. I set out to catalogue this, and to make arguments against your points. I don't see how this is any less legitimate a use of my time than any other stupid wikipedia talk page activities. john k 16:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Would be very awkward to read if Democratic-Republican is used throughout - use the name 'as it was in use at the time' to provide appropriate context. Just make sure that the modern Re[publican party is identified as modern every time it is mentioned (which it appears to be now). Please note that this is the first time I've actually bothered to read about this aspect of American History (like I'm Canajun, eh?) and I don't find it the least bit confusing. Bridesmill 19:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I checked 8 current college US history textbooks that have online tables of contents 1 uses Dem-Rep (see #3) 6 use Republican 1 uses Jeffersonians (#6)
Longman: [15]
ch 5 has section Federalists and Republicans: The Rise of Political Parties.
ch 9. Revolutionary Legacies, 1789—1803. Competing Political Visions in the New Nation. Federalism and Democratic-Republicanism in Action.
ch 8 student guide Controversy between Federalist supporters of the national government and the emerging Jeffersonian Republican opposition first erupted over domestic policies designed to stabilize the nation's finances and promote its economic development. Those policies revealed deep-seated conflicts between economic interests and raised urgent questions of how the new constitution should be interpreted
ch 8 = Republican Ascendancy: The Jeffersonian Vision.
from Bedford St Martin [16]
Jefferson's Agrarian Vision Hamilton's financial programs divided the Federalists into two irreconcilable political parties and led to the emergence of the Republicans, a group headed by Madison and Jefferson.
[17] so the textbooks vote is 7-1 against D-R and 6-2 in favor of Republicans
Both South Korea and Croatia have "Democratic-Republican" parties, and maybe others. Rjensen 01:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
In the question of what to name this article, "Democratic-Republican Party" or "Democratic Party," I've been arguing in favor using other online encyclopedias as our model. As much as some people think Wikipedia is a playground or a chance to exercise finger muscles over a keyboard, most people use this place to look up information. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia. All the online encyclopedias/references I found filed this topic under "Democratic-Republican Party." We should too. Here are the online encyclopedias/references with URLs to their "Democratic-Republican Party" articles: Encyclopedia Britannica; Reference.com; American Heritage Encyclopedia; U.S. Facts on File; Encarta Encyclopedia; World Encyclopedia; Studies for Kids; Ohio History Central Online Encyclopedia; Oxford University Press Encyclopedia; SparkNotes (very popular with American high schoolers; Your Definition.com; The Free Dictionary.com
Several of these sites are wikipedia mirrors - reference.com, U.S. Facts on File. The "World Encyclopedia" and the "Oxford University Press Encyclopedia" are the same site. The American Heritage source listed is a dictionary, not an encyclopedia - of course a dictionary should list that meaning. Note that the definition of "Republican Party" ( [19]) includes Jefferson's party as one of its meanings. The freedictionary.com and yourdictionary.com are also dictionaries - Dictionaries are completely inconclusive in terms of what the usage is, since they'll have usage at both terms.
So that means that we're left with britannica, encarta, the "world encyclopedia," social studies for kids, ohio history central online, and sparknotes. john k 03:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
and Jefferson a Republican [24] as well as Gallatin [25] It calls no one a D-R....of course it's much newer than Ency Brit and Encarta (which is based on an old grocery-store encyclopedia called Funk and Wagnals) The commercial encyclopedias were written decades ago (EB article about 1986) and are updated by staff people who are not histoians. Wiki can do better. Rjensen 04:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Another online encyclopedia is Columbia. They don't have an article on Jefferson's party, but in the article on Jefferson, it calls the party the Republicans. Note also that in Britannica's article on Jefferson, it uses "Republican" to refer to the party: But an embryonic version of the party structure was congealing, and Jefferson, assisted and advised by Madison, established the rudiments of the first opposition party in American politics under the Republican banner. john k 15:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Griot was the one who suggested Wiki should be of Readers Digest quality. And yes, Griot is very good at copyediting--certainly better than me. It's dumbing down to rely on a general encyclopedia instead of the best scholarship. -- let's use the Pulitzer prize winners (Rakove, Ellis, Bailyn, Fischer, Morgan--he won the Pulitzer this month).
Here are 10 current textbooks that use "Republican", with URLs (you may have to click through to the appropriate chapter).
between Republicans and Federalists, by Davidson, Gienapp, Heyrman, Lytle, and Stoff [29]. This table of contents doesn't mention the "Republican Party" anywhere. It mentions "Republican Experiments," "Republican Society," and "Differences between Republicans and Federalists." - Griot
Rjensen 07:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Re: "Unto a Good Land"--the website is not much help but I purchased a paper copy of the book. It uses "Republican party". Is it a serious danger that someone reading through the article will get confused between Madison in 1800, McKinley in 1900 and McCain in 2000. No, I think not. Rjensen 16:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to say straight out that all this wrangling over sources is probably not going to convince anyone. I think that "Republican" is probably now used by a majority. A lot of old sources, and a few newer ones, use "Democratic-Republican." The question then becomes, "in such a situation, what should wikipedia do?"
I'm going to put the article name to one side for now, and address the question of what name we should primarily use in the text. I think it's fairly clear that we should use "Republican". Firstly, this was the name which was the most commonly used at the time. Secondly, this is the name which is used by the majority of historians. Thirdly, in certain contexts, especially that of the break-up of the Republican Party (because the faction that would become the Democratic Party actually did call itself the Democratic-Republicans), "Democratic-Republican" is a lot more confusing than "Republican," which really isn't confusing at all, as our Canadian contributor demonstrated. Fourthly, there is absolutely no rule which says that we must call something by the name we use in the article title about that thing. That's completely ridiculous, and I defy Griot to come up with any wikipedia policy anywhere that supports such a claim. As we all admit, both names (Democratic-Republican and Republican) are used by historians as names for the party. Some historians, like Harry Watson, use the names indiscriminately, alternating between them as the mood strikes them. Even if we decide that "Democratic-Republican" is a better name for the article because of disambiguation issues, that does not mean that "Democratic-Republican" is the better term to use in the text.
In terms of the article name, I genuinely don't feel as strongly - I might even say I don't feel strongly at all. The only reason I proposed a name change at all is Griot's insistence that the name of the article must match the name we use in text, which, as I say, I strongly disagree with. I don't especially like "Democratic-Republican Party (United States)" as a name, but I'm not sure what good alternatives there are. The obvious Republican Party (United States) is taken. We could move to Jeffersonian Republican Party. Or to Republican Party (Jeffersonian) or to Republican Party (1792-1824). None of these would be terrible - I'd suggest that none would be any worse than the current title. But none is terribly ideal. So I'm open to suggestions here. I'd be happy to just leave the article where it is if we can come to a consensus that "Republican Party" is the preferred term to use in article text, and that "Democratic-Republican" is just a necessary evil of an article title for disambiguation purposes. john k 15:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not a moot point. Your point is completely absurd. The Linnaeus comparison is ridiculous - Linnaeus was writing about taxonomy, not about, well, everything. As I said, the only reason I proposed a move was because of this ridiculous position of yours. But the positions remains utterly absurd. For instance, in articles about people whose names change throughout their lives, we use whatever name they were known by at the time. Benjamin Disraeli is "Disraeli" before he's made an Earl, and "Beaconsfield" afterwards. I'd also note that for writers with pen names, there is no clear single standard - the Twain article mostly calls him Twain. The article on Stendhal generally calls him "Beyle" for the period before he started writing, and "Stendhal" thereafter. The article on Lewis Carroll calls him Dodgson throughout. The article on George Eliot refers to her as Mary Ann Evans in discussion of her personal life, and George Eliot in discussion of her work. There's simply no rule doing what you claim. john k 18:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what these footnotes are supposed to be pointing to?
We should use the <ref></ref> syntax for footnotes. -- JW1805 (Talk) 21:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
While we have been debating terminology, somehow large sections of the article got misplaced and I just now restored them. The party was one of the first mass parties in the world and it invented many new techniques, especially in how to win an election, and use of newspapers. That is an important development in political history (in American and world perspective) so it needs coverage. No it is not in any way POV. The Federalists were slow in adopting these methods and that (days David Hackett Fischer) was a fatal mistake for the Federalists. Rjensen 22:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Grand National Party mentions that the GNP used to be known as the "Democratic Republican Party" as its inception as well. I don't know whether this is sufficiently notable, however, to include a disambiguation link here. I'll leave it up to you guys. Deco 10:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The following is stated in the article:
"That caucus was not used after 1816, and the party as a national institution ceased to exist. James Monroe ran under the party's banner in 1820 (without a caucus), and in 1824 there was no party nominee."
I hope that everyone will agree that these sentences should be re-worded slightly.
The national Caucus assembled in the U.S. Capitol Building on 4/5/1820. Forty members of Congress attended. In the days preceding the Caucus, members of Congress from NC and NY decided to boycott the Caucus because they felt it was organized to embarrass VP Tompkins. Only two Virginians attended. Richard M. Johnson presented a resolution stating that no nominations were necessary, as the incumbents were expected to run again. The motion carried, and James Monroe and Daniel Tompkins became the candidates. Ohio Elects the President p. 16.
The Caucus last assembled in the U.S. House chamber on 2/14/1824. Sixty-eight members of Congress attended, the bulk coming from four states (NY, VA, NC, and GA). Ten states were entirely unrepresented, and five states had only one representative. This last Caucus nominated William H. Crawford for President by a vote of 64 to 4 scattering and Albert Gallatin for VP by a vote of 57 to eight scattering. Ohio Elects the President p. 17.
In the presidential election of 1824 in North Carolina, two slates of presidential electors were offered: one called the People's Ticket which was unofficially pledged to Andrew Jackson, and the Caucus Ticket which was officially pledged to William H. Crawford. The People's Ticket was originally pledged to John C. Calhoun (mentioned in many newspapers; only clipping I copied was from the Raleigh Register of 1/15/1824). When Calhoun switched to the VP race, the People's Ticket became unofficially the Jackson ticket. The Raleigh Register endorsed the Caucus Ticket and ran the ballot every week in its columns. I copied the ballot printed on 9/10/1824, which was substantially the same which ran for many weeks. It begins with these words: "National Nomination. At a meeting of the Democratic Members of Congress, held in the Chamber of the House of Repressentatives, [2/14] 1824, of which Benjamin Ruggles of Ohio, was Chairman, and Ela Collins of New-York, Secretary..." that Crawford and Gallatin were nominated.
These are just a few bits of information that the Caucus continued to be held after 1816. I don't think that this is a controverial matter, and I hope that people will feel in agreement that some modification of the text is warranted. Chronicler3 02:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Chronicler3
My reply then would be to adjust the text to say something along these lines: "although the Caucus assembled in 1820 and 1824 to nominate candidates for president and vice president, low attendance indicates that the caucus system had collapsed" rather than suggesting that the party held no national caucus after 1816. The text as it stands is not historically accurate. Chronicler3 10:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I did a study of 25 American history books to determine which term historians favor for Jefferson's party, "Democratic-Republican Party" or "Republican Party." Only one book (Salliant's Black Puritan, Black Republican) uses the term "Repubican Party"; one other (Laudau's Friendly Foes) uses the term "Jeffersonian Republican Party." All others use the term "Democratic-Republican Party."
Here are the results of my study. I think we need to take into consideration which term professional historians use for this party. My study clearly shows that the vast majority of historians use the term "Democratic-Republican Party":
& not by scholars (Doak, Landau, Payan); others deal with late 19th or even 20th century. Others are not by historians at all (Fortier, Walter) Suggest instead look at the books written and reviewed by scholars of the 1790-1839 period--this was done above, see "Journal of the Early Republic". Rjensen 04:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Warning: The following post is long.]
Before we start, I am going to caveat all of the following with the comment that I don't subscribe to the idea that whatever “professional historians” do is dispositive as to what Wikipedia's policy on this naming issue should be. For one thing, the term “professional historian” is not well-defined: witness the dispute above between Griot, who thinks that textbook writers are “professional historians” and Richard Jensen, who does not. For another, I think that there are other factors to consider, such as what the people of the time actually named the party, and not confusing our readership with an ambiguous name. Anyway, on to the experiment….
When Griot pointed out his 25 books to me, my first response was, “Wow. That's different from my experience.” And, indeed, I went through my bookshelves (still only partially unpacked from my most recent move) and found the following books that discuss this period of American history:
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help)Of the above books, only Holt doesn't refer to Jefferson's party exclusively as “Republicans” but instead as “Jeffersonian Republicans”. (Tellingly, it covers the historical period starting with their breakup and starting with the creation of the modern Republican party; in other words, Holt needs to disambiguate.) Ellis (2001) does refer to “Democratic-Republican societies”, but does not so refer to the party in this fashion.
Of course, there's an obvious problem with my above list. It suffers from a selection bias, insofar as these are books that interest either me or my wife. It may be that I am predisposed to liking books that have properties that predispose them to using “Republican” over “Democratic-Republican”. I then contrived to perform an experiment. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and did a quick survey of the books in the American history section. I had about 25 minutes to do this survey before the store closed, so I was only able to get at about ten books that referenced Jefferson's party. (The first books are from the “New Releases” section, followed by the general section in alphabetical order by author.) Here are the results:
The results of this experiment are interesting to consider. First of all, only one of these books uses “Democratic-Republican” exclusively; four others use both, and five use “Republican” exclusively. The ones that are mixed tend to use “Republican” more often than “Democratic-Republican”. Thus, among popular history books, it seems that both are used, with a bias towards “Republican”. (Keep in mind that this is a small sample size; a larger sampling might indicate a different bias.)
What is more interesting, however, is that, of the four books that use both, three refer to a shift in usage from “Republican” to “Democratic-Republican”, and two peg the timing of this shift to the beginning of the War of 1812. If in fact it is true that the name “Democratic-Republican” picked up currency around 1810–1812, that should influence how we refer to the party: we should use “Republican” or “Jeffersonian Republican” for articles whose subject matter is prior to 1810–1812 and “Democratic-Republican” or “Democratic Republican” for articles whose subject matter is later.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth for the moment. Comments?
— DLJessup ( talk) 13:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been reading this discussion with some interest. I agree with the above statement by JW1805, in so much as Wikipedia is a general purpose encyclopedia and is not just for scholars but the public at large. When considering nomenclature., we must take into consideration what is generally held as acceptable terms by the general-political-academic community as it display's this article's topic to the public:
It seems to me that both Democratic-Republican and Republican are used to describe Jefferson's party that competed with the Federalist's represented by Adams and Hamilton and by inference Washington (although he didn't belong to any party). I side then with both terms used in context. I think we as a community can find a way to do just that like some of the quotes provided above. -- Northmeister 02:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
A couple of points here:
I'm not sure how all this information weighs against the disambiguation issue. What I do think is that the usage information so far brought forward supports the following:
Any thoughts? john k 23:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, this whole debate gets a little silly. But if you all are going to have this debate, I'd really recommend some real original documentation to take it to the right level. Citing encyclopedias, websites, and a bunch of dusty academics won't convince anyone. Best source I know of on-line is the Library of Congress Prints and Photographs collection [39], which has millions of lithographs and prints, many, many of them going back to this period. Campaign handbills and the like are good sources. The American Antiquarian Society probably has the most complete collection [40], but has to be accessed from a library that subscribes (or, with proper credentials, you can visit it in Worcester, MA, since it's just a great place anyways). Sam 00:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
What a great debate about what name to call the Rose. May I ask a different question: what about adding a section to this article on the names used by this particular party for itself over the years? It's actually rather fascinating as a topic, and there are periods when certain groups within the Party would try to make off with the name Republican previously applied to the broader group. Whatever we call the article, I think the discussion is worthy of being in there. Sam 18:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The transition in this article from the Republican Party of Jefferson to the Democratic Party of Jackson doesn't seem to be well dealt with and is very inconsistent. Jackson gets listed as a candidate of the party in one section, but not as a president elected by the party in another. I'm not sure I buy the discussion that says the party "split" and "dissolved" prior to the 1928 campaign. Part of the problem is the reification of the party as an entity; my understanding is that all of the candidates in 1928 still viewed themselves as Republicans, and this may be the period of the party's greatest dominance, since no one was running against them. At that stage in time the apparti of party governance were not as well developed as today - we have to wait for Van Buren and Lincoln for that.
So I'd propose moving away from dissolution language and describing in more words what happened, which was a struggle over the heart and soul of the party in which Jackson emerged supreme and took over and reformed the party while others split. Sam 19:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind seeing more of the 1828 and on period under the Democratic Party (can go in either in my view), but we may want to add a "see also", and I don't like the tag of "Last Years, 1816-1824" for two reasons: it seems funny to have a party sound like a lame duck at a time when it is as dominant as any other political party in the history of the country, and, arguably, they aren't the last years, since there is ongoing continuity into the Democratic Party. Just some thoughts.
I especially like the handling of Van Buren, however. One of the most underappreciated figures in our history. Sam 23:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a bit late in the day, isn't it? Perhaps someone's trying to appeal to two traditions by this time. No sign anywhere of that 1798 usage - can someone point me to a primary source? Sam 01:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, it certainly seems ironic to me that the one bit of documentary evidence for the name Democratic-Republican Party in an article about the Democratic-Republican Party uses the name some 16 years after it was supposedly gone. That's four full election cycles! Sam 01:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, the term "Democratic-Republican" had an original contemporary use as a synonym for "Democrat" - it was used in this sense much more than it was ever used as a synonym for Jefferson's party... john k 17:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Morphh. I think it's important to mention that the Democratic-Republican Party is the precursor of the modern-day Democratic Party in the Democratic-Republican and Thomas Jefferson articles. The earlier party is the seed of the modern-day party. It's quite amazing if you think about it that a party Thomas Jefferson created in the 1790s is still alive today, albeit in a different form. If you say that Jefferson created the Democratic-Republican Party without also mentioning that this party is the precursor of a modern party, you don't convey how amazing Jefferson's work was. Griot 11:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Using Republican in this article as a header title is highly misleading. I've stated before, that I do not approve, and neither do scholars overall. I DO NOT accept a change without verifiable documented evidence, that such a change of history is necessary. Democratic-Republican has always been the name used in the United States, for this party by historians - regardless of anyones opinion. -- Northmeister 03:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Further J.Q. Adams was a Democratic-Republican only until the party splintered in 1824 when he organized the National Republican Party and Jackson men became what would be the Democratic Party. -- Northmeister 03:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Before this supposed business of the Republican Party "officially" taking the name "Democratic-Republican" goes into the article, we need to find something which is not a brief entry in a (19th century natch) encyclopedia that explains the context of this. Something is not a fact because it's repeated in a bunch of dubious sources (in different ways - note that the other sources which make this claim say 1798, while this one says 1793-1796.) Also notice that this source does say that the party was generally called the "Republicans." john k 09:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
A somewhat moroe recent historian (Monaghan: John Jay, p. 396) speaks of Freneau as a Democratic journalist, when writing about 1795. The only modern tendency against DR is the partisan tracts DLJessup lists far above. Septentrionalis 20:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
GRIOT uses a very old encyclopedia instead of solid scholarship. He likes to blank information -- that's pretty naughty behavior. As for name of party, let's use solid sources like Gammon's scholarly monograph--quoted at length on this page above. The 1832 proceedings of the 1st Dem national convention called themselves "Republicans", as Gammon says and as the New York Public Library listing of the convention proceesings proves. Take a look at [43] for solid proof. Rjensen 05:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Richard Hildreth was the first major historian of American political parties, writing a multivolume history in 1840s. He uses both "Republican" and "Democratic" to describe Jefferson's party in 1796-1804 era, preferring "Republican by anout 2-1. But he does not use the term "Democratic-Republican." You can read his entire text--and do word searches, at Google Books: [45].
I bolded a point in your post. All I'd like is an original document to support the point in your post I've bolded. If it was "official", was it incorporated - then there will likely, at the time, be a legislative act incorporating it (this is before state incorporation statutes, an invention of the Jacksonian era). If it was unincorporated, how about an official publication identifying it as such? Letterhead? Masthead of a party organ? A caucus or convention resolution? If you must, a statement in a period newspaper would be helpful (though less convincing, since that goes to use rather than "official" status). In my quick searches, I can't find anything to support party usage of D-R pre-Jacksonian era, other than the Democratic-Republican societies that were clearly separate. --On the other hand, I'd also like to see the same documentation for use of Republican. I see it in secondary sources, but an original document would help. Sam 16:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a fairly large contribution to the tracking the use of the name "Democratic" in describing Jefferson's party to the present era, using mostly primary sources. I hope all (or at least some) find it helpful (scroll down to the Quotes & Resources section):
Link Settler 09:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
How many historians are liberal/conservative? The best evidence comes from the Murray-Blessing 1982 survey that asked a cross section of professors of American political history whether they were liberal or conservative on domestic social and economic issues. The liberals outnumbered conservatives 190:50 or 80%-20% The two groups had only small differences in ranking the best and worst presidents.
Rankings by Liberals and Conservatives
rank | Liberals (n=190) | Conservatives (N=50) |
1 | Lincoln | Lincoln |
2 | FD Roosevelt | Washington |
3 | Washington | FD Roosevelt |
4 | Jefferson | Jefferson |
5 | T Roosevelt | T Roosevelt |
6 | Wilson | Jackson |
7 | Jackson | Truman |
8 | Truman | Wilson |
9 | LB Johnson | Eisenhower |
10 | John Adams | John Adams |
30 | Coolidge | Carter |
31 | Pierce | Nixon |
32 | Buchanan | Pierce |
33 | An. Johnson | An. Johnson |
34 | Grant | Buchanan |
35 | Nixon | Grant |
36 | Harding | Harding |
Source: Murray, Robert K. and Tim H. Blessing. Greatness in the White House: Rating the Presidents, from Washington Through Ronald Reagan (1994) p 135 Rjensen 15:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Guess what? The party used both names. A large majority of people in the united states today know the name of this party as the name it is right now: Democratic-Republican, and that it is in todays form the democratic party. Though I doubt the ideals back then are anything like today's crazy politics. I'm weighing in on this because I'd be stupified if this article changed its name. The name 'republican' can certainly be used within the article, because several members of it back in the day did apparently call it as such, while others called it different. And for years and years it was in textbooks as democratic-republican. Anything else is confusing to most people who would look for this. Kevin_b_er 01:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm curious as to when and why the hyphenation was introduced into the name. I'm at a loss to find early sources from the Library of Congress that hypenated the name--its appellation was "Democratic Republican" from at least the turn of the 19th century through the 1830s of the pro-Jackson/Van Buren faction. It is also true that it went by the appellation Republican (sans Democratic), before anyone points that out. I'm just interested in how the hyphenation came about. Settler 04:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how you can have it both ways; Republican AND Democratic Republican. "According to Federalist Noah Webster, the choice of the name "Republican" was "a powerful instrument in the process of making proselytes to the party.... The influence of names on the mass of mankind, was never more distinctly exhibited, than in the increase of the democratic party in the United States. The popularity of the denomination of the Republican Party, was more than a match for the popularity of Washington's character and services, and contributed to overthrow his administration.""
All the textbooks I've seen have termed this party "Republican". It's odd that some are choosing to use the artificial name that neither Jefferson nor Madison used. And the above quotes are derogatory in tone, instead of providing valuable information. It is clearly attempting to spin the success of Jefferson's and Madison's party on the name alone, based primarily on the sour-grapes opinion of one of their opposition. It should be struck. Skyemoor 01:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
As for the hyphenation, it's probably grammatical. "We are Democratic Republicans" [nouun], but "Democratic-Republican Party" [adjective]. Septentrionalis 05:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some code attached to the article (edit: look at notes section) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.59.131.134 ( talk • contribs) .
I have taught middle school US history. It is far more NPOV than anything I heard in history classes at university - although since I am a serious student of history, I also recognize how many ridiculous statements make it into school textbooks and require purging at some point.
Anyway, the point is that what passes for "common knowledge" on this subject is that the party is known to posterity as the Democrat-Republican party, even though it was commonly called the Republican party in its day. One of the reasons this name is chosen is that both of the modern day political parties in the US like to trace their roots to Thomas Jefferson, even though Jackson and Lincoln are the de facto founders of the modern day parties.
The Federalists have no real decendents in modern America. Their ideas, perceived as pro-monarchist and pro-class, were discredited, especially as a result of the Whisky Rebellion and the Alien and Sedition Acts. Much of what passes for acceptable political ideas in American politics was shaped by this debate. For example, the GOP might attack the Dems for being too statist, Washington centered, and tax-and-spend, while the Dems will accuse the GOP of being classist and overly pro-business (and might see something like the Patriot Act as being akin to the Sedition Act). Basically - as is wont ot happen in the revolutionary political climate that persists in the US to this day - Federalist ideas gradually became viewed as "un-American."
Really, Jefferson's victory in 1800 was instrumental in defining the ideals of a young democracy, and both modern parties construct and reconstruct their political ethos from the raw intellectual capital of Jefferson's philosophic victory over the Federalists. It forms the boundary of the debate (with apologies to those who extended it, such as TR, FDR, and LBJ). I suspect that the naming of Jefferson's party in the history books stems from a desire to reflect that reality - so important to understanding the rest of US history - which was viewed as more instructive than teaching the literal (but relatively pointless) fact of what name was actually used in the newspapers in the early 19th century. The fact that one of the modern parties is called "Republican" just bolsters the case, since it avoids confusion. In any case, 95% of the educated adults in the US know this party as the "DRP" - though whether an encyclopedia ought to refect this or the literal fact is very debatable.
But to say that the "DRP" is more the forerunner of the Democrats than the Republicans is misleading as well - Jacksonian democracy may seem closer to Jeffersonian democracy than to Lincoln's abolitionism, but then again, it was separated by fewer years. Certainly today the case is muddy. Republicans in pro-states-rights middle America seem to have inherited more of Jefferson's legacy than the urban ideals driving modern Democratic politics (though both sides seem to be steeped in competing forms of Lincoln's moral fervor).
In any case, I linked to this article from the Hamilton article, which refered to the "Republican party" (linked here) as well as to the "Republican party (linked to the GOP article) in the same paragraph. I was previously aware of the historical accuracy of calling Jefferson a "Republican" but nonetheless my first instict was to change it, since it is confusing and out of the norm. Sure, some ultramodern middle school texts have reverted to this - though not the one at my school six years ago - but ours also credited the Iroquois for inventing democracy. Just because history textbooks have changed something in the last 10 years doesn't make it more true - in fact, it makes me less likely to believe it, if anything, since there has been such a violent flurry of revisionism in school texts in recent years. I found it jarring that the text of that article referred to the Republican Party as the party of Jefferson and would have fixed it, except that I have no wish to get drawn into the flame war underway on THAT page.
In any event, if we are going to keep the name of the article as one thing, then the links to it should say the same thing. We are trying to create an encyclopedia, and on a point like this - where there is a pretty sound argument for doing it either way - the value of consistency probably is paramount. It is dodgy to grugingly agree to keep the old name, but then sneak around using the other name in all other articles, where the discussion is bifurcated. That is even worse - we leave the confusing text, AND link to an inaccurate name.
I suggest that - since it seems to have stuck - that we keep the name DRP as it is now, and explain the naming issue at the top of the article - then use Republican the rest of the way. That seems to be the status quo. BUT - the links from the other articles should say, in the text, "DRP," since that is the naming convention used in the title. Not everyone will be happy with this but it is consistent, and fully informative for anyone who reads the article. Cheers Kgdickey 02:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
As we have seen the term "Democratic-Republican Party" is highly confusing because it was not used at the time, and is not now used in 90% of textbooks, and can only confuse people who think it is some sort of coalition. The "Jeffersonian Republican Party" solves all the problems--it was used at the time, it is used in textbooks, it leads to no confusion with the GOP. (The term "Early Republican Party" was never used by anybody--the one book with that in the title deals with 1850s.) Rjensen 10:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to stick with the compromise, but I don't like the title of the article. I've always known the party as the Democratic-Republican Party. How do we know that 90% of textbooks don't use D-RP? From what I've learned in school, the "Democratic Party" name comes from Andrew Jackson's peeling away from the D-RP. This was just a few concerns. -- myselfalso 19:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Talk:Early Republican Party (United States) → Talk:Democratic-Republican Party (United States) – I erred when trying to sync the talk pages with what I thought had been a move of the article originally at Democratic-Republican Party (United States) to Early Republican Party (United States). … Please share your opinion at Talk:Early Republican Party (United States). DLJessup ( talk) 21:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
On the substantive issue, early Republican Party is a bad choice, simply because WP's software will make it appear the non-existent Early Republican Party. This is aside from all issues on what the article should be called, on which my position has not changed. Septentrionalis 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Vegaswikian 21:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
No one ever uses the term "Early Republican Party" so it has no place in an Encyclopedia. Much better is "Jeffersonian Republican party" which is in widespread use among scholars and textbooks, and creates no confusion with the GOP. (There is one book on the Early Republican Party by Crandall and it deals with the GOP in the 1850s, exactly the confusion we want to avoid. Rjensen 00:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Sam has set the ball rolling (to quote a different party). It looks like the AfD will succeed, so we might as well set out positions. I would at least wait to contact WP:RM, or take any other action, until it passes, as looks likely.
The fundamental consideration here is that Republican Party and Republican Party (United States) are both unavailable for this article; arguments which tend to prove that it ought to be so named are therefore pointless. All the names that could be used instead have disadvantages; but Democratic-Republican Party has the fewest:
Democratic-Republicans is shorter, and has the advantage of not claiming this body to be a party in the modern sense, so it would be my other choice. Septentrionalis 18:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The Democratic Republicans spent a long time denying that they were a party; so did the Federalists. They used various names for themselves and their friends, including "Jeffersonians", "Republicans", and "Democrats"; "Democratic-Republicans" is one of these.
The current OED, btw, accepts "Democratic Party", and defines it as Name of the political party originally called Anti-Federal and afterwards Democratic-Republican, initially favouring strict interpretation of the Constitution with regard to the powers of the general government and of individual States.. with citations from 1800 and 1812; their first citation of "Republican" is from 1806 and is clearly hostile: Benjamin Tallmadge saying "Our exclusive republican Brethren, those dear Lovers of the people." Septentrionalis 17:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The contemporary situation was summarized thus: "There are two parties, which style themselves Federal republicans and Democratic republicans, but who speaking of each other leave out the word republican and call each other Federalists and Democrats". (DAE, citing Fortescue Cuming's Western Tour, 1810) For an example of this, see George Washington's letter of 30 September 1798, when he was feeling partisan in retirement. (I observe that the editors of Washington's diary use "Democratic", unmodified, without caution or explanation [51] Septentrionalis 17:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia online from Thomas Jefferson Collection Electronic Text Center, U of Virginia Library
At least in the case of the Progressive Parties it's handled in this manner:
Progressive Party (United States, 1912)
Progressive Party (United States, 1924)
Progressive Party (United States, 1948)
Perhaps Republican Party (United States, 1792) is a possible alternative? Still, using the Republican appellation introduces problems in thousands of other Wikipedia articles that still use the Democratic-Republican terminology and may introduce some confusion to readers upon supplantation, as well as in regards to the Republican Party of the 1850s that still bares the name.
Anyway, and either way, at some point in the future I'll get around to adding a paragraph on the usage of "Democratic Republican" and "Democratic" by the party into this article. Settler 09:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Republican Party (United States, 1792) sounds like an approach that can remove this roadblock, Democratic-Republican is clearly unworkable. Skyemoor 18:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Was employed after 1800, if not earlier. All attempts to expunge this from the historical record and article will be met with correction by me. Settler 20:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Thomas Jefferson called his party "Republican." The parties didn't have conventions at that time, so Jefferson's writings provide the most offical definition of the party's name. I don't see why a name change would create any problem with ambiguities or references in other articles. Just redirect from "Democratic-Republican Party" to "Republican Party (Jeffersonian)" or "Republican Party (1792-1825)". Aside from the fact that it wasn't the actual name of the party, the phrase "Democratic-Republican Party" has confused many people into thinking that the Democrats and Republicans were factions of a Democratic-Republic Party that split and evolved into the modern Democratic and Republican parties. The Jeffersonian Republican Party split into the Whigs and the Jacksonians. There was no question of one faction being more democratic or republican than the other. Both groups were variously called "republican" and "democratic." It took the Jacksonians over ten years to settle on "Democratic Party" as their official name. The split was not ideological, but related strictly to opposition or support for Jackson, who was better known as a war hero than for any political view he held. The modern Republican Party was founded as an anti-slavery group in 1854. In short, the idea of Democrats and Republicans as two opposed groups or parties didn't arise for more a generation after the original Republican Party had dissolved and the issues involved were not connected to the 1825 split. Kauffner 06:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Too say Democratic-Republican would go against any usage of the terms used from the start. Republican solves that, and Republican (United States 1792) would resolve any confusion. Skyemoor 14:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Is the following a confusion, or is it deliberate?
This is unsourced. More seriously, it is obviously false. In 1792, Jefferson and Madison were still contending that of course they didn't belong to a party; Hamilton might. The quotations above show Jefferson did not use "republican party" until 1802, and even then he didn't use it as a proper noun, with capitalization, but as a generic term. Septentrionalis 20:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
here's the critical letter of Jefferson from 1792: TO T. M. RANDOLPH, JR. PHILADELPHIA, November 16, 1792. An attempt has been made to give further extent to the influence of the Executive over the Legislature, by permitting the heads of departments to attend the House and explain their measures viva voce. But it was negatived by a majority of 35 to 11, which gives us some hope of the increase of the republican vote. (note: ie Republican vote in Congress) However, no trying question enables us yet to judge, nor indeed is there reason to expect from this Congress many instances of conversion, though some will probably have been effected by the expression of the public sentiment in the late election. For, as far as we have heard, the event has been generally in favor of republican, and against the aristocratical candidates. (note: Republican candidates in 1792 election) In this State the election has been triumphantly carried by the republicans; their antagonists having got but 2 out of 11 members, and the vote of this State can generally turn the balance. Freneau's paper is getting into Massachusetts, under the patronage of Hancock; and Samuel Adams, and Mr. Ames, the colossus of the monocrats and paper men, will either be left out or hard run. The people of that State are republican: but hitherto they have heard nothing but the hymns and lauds chanted by Fenno. (note: J stresses role of party newspapers). Rjensen 20:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Jefferson Conference with President Washington August the 6th, 1793. regarding "what is called the republican party here," ...I could undertake to assure him [Washington], from my intimacy with that party in the late Congress, that there was not a view in the republican party as spread over the United States, which went to the frame of the Government.... He [Washington] said he believed the views of the republican party were perfectly pure, but when men put a machine into motion, it is impossible for them to stop it exactly where they would choose" So we have Washington and Jefferson discussing the "republican party" and using those words in 1793. Rjensen 21:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This edit is a marked improvement. Thanks. Septentrionalis 21:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"that with respect to the spirit of party that was taking place under the operations of the Government, I was sensible of its existence…that in one party note: Republicans—but no name used there might be a few who, retaining their original disaffection to the Government, might still wish to destroy it, but that they would lose their weight with their associates by betraying any such hostile purposes; that although it was pretty certain that the other note: Federalists, no name used were, in general, unfriendly to republican Government, and probably aimed at a gradual approximation of ours to a mixed monarchy, yet the public sentiment was so strongly opposed to their views, and so rapidly manifesting itself, that the party could not long be expected to retain a dangerous influence.... [as to successor to Washington:] With respect to Mr. Adams, his monarchical principles...with his late conduct on the representation bill, had produced such a settled dislike among republicans every where, and particularly in the Southern States, that he seemed to be out of the question. Rjensen 23:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"while most political science textbooks prefer Democratic Republican." I didn't see the evidence for this claim, who did the research? Skyemoor 10:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
http://wps.ablongman.com/long_edwards_gab_8/0,10654,2189791-,00.html
The Niles Register is a wonderful source, but it was not partisan. The ANB says, " So determined was he to be objective and thorough in his task that he scorned influence from politicians, endorsed no individual political candidates, rejected all advertisements, and refused all anonymous materials. " Stephen M. Zeigler. "Niles, Hezekiah"; http://www.anb.org/articles/16/16-01202.html; American National Biography Online Feb. 2000. Access Date: Tue Oct 3 22:49:21 MDT 2006 The DAB article by Boroadus Mitchell says: " In politics, Niles was a Jeffersonian until 1816 or 1817, when he described himself as a no-party man. On Jan. 10, 1824, he wrote: "I cannot believe that either [Jackson or Calhoun] will be elected, and should regret votes thrown away. I esteem both, personally and politically; and though my private wish is rather for Mr. Adams, I shall be content to accept any other than Mr. Crawford." When Jackson came into office in 1829, Niles differed sharply with his policies, and became a Whig. " Rjensen 04:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I simplified the footnotes by moving some of the full reference titles that were there into the Reference section. The usage of templates and more formal citations, which seemed like a good idea at the time when I introduced them into the article, was beginning to clutter it; so I reduced their usage within the article. Settler 02:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The view that Athenian government was a form of anarchy was general during the time period considered here (i.e. pre- George Grote) and not particular to William Mitford. If you want to single out one historian, Edward Gibbon was more widely read and influential than Mitford. It's a view that can be traced back to Thucydides, who was first translated into English by Thomas Hobbes in 1628.( This is my source. [Subscription required.]) It is striking ironic that the Federalists used the word " democracy" in a derogatory way. They would have had first-hand experience with New England town meetings, whose structure was very similar to that of the Athenian government. Kauffner 01:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Madison used capital R to refer to the Republican party: To Madison to Jefferson, March 2d, 1794. I see by a paper of last evening that even in New York a meeting of the people has taken place, at the instance of the Republican party, and that a committee is appointed for the like purpose. [from Smith, ed, The Republic of Letters: The Correspondence of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1776-1826 (1994) vol 2 p 832 Rjensen 14:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This is sufficiently confusing to me that I'm not sure whether I even disagree with it. It certainly can be read: "The Jeffersonians took the lead, but the Federalists were first." which is a contradiction. If it means, as I guess, that the DR's used most devices of partisanship first, that would require much more explicit citation, because it is clearly controversial; the common understanding appears to be that the Federalists had the first Philadelphia party paper, for example. Septentrionalis 17:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This is better than Republican Party; it is at least a name found in the DR correspondence. I have now read through Cunningham 1957, and almost all his quotations (all, of course, by March 1801) have some form of republican (never, however, Republican Party, so capped). Rjensen and I have gone into this at some length. There is also an issue of technical accuracy: "Republican party" was not the earliest, the "original name", even assuming that means anything for an informal league, not a body corporate.
In this form, Skyemoor's hobby horse is merely unnecessary and pointless repetition, not active misrepresentation; I wish to acknowledge the improvement. Septentrionalis 23:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I find this curiosity fascinating; and it makes clear that Republican and Federalist were adjectives in the 1790's. And with such things, it is usually better to include them correctly than wait until some helpful newbie comes across, e.g., a primary source about Virginia "American Republicans" supporting Adams. Better to get it right once than go into a include-delete-protest-explain cycle. Septentrionalis 18:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
"The Democratic-Republican Party was one of the political parties that dominated U.S. political life during the First Party System, from the 1790s to the 1820s. The party was originally called the Republican Party, but the name evolved over time, and the party was known as Democratic-Republican Party by 1815."
This pretty much sums up the situation, though one could say "republican party" or "Republican party" instead. It is concise and does not leave the reader with ambiguity about how it evolved. Skyemoor 23:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
"The first official name came with the first national Democratic convention in 1832 which used "Republican Party."" Why was this removed? Is it incorrect? Skyemoor 15:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure this is correct in the 1790s. A more correct sentence would read "Republicans generally supported good relations with France (before 1801) and opposed an alliance with Great Britain, preferring to remain independent of either nation". Thoughts? Skyemoor 10:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
"although "democrat" and "republican" had been used almost equivalently in 1793 (and, for the political philosophy, earlier.)" Who was using these two names almost equivalently in 1793? Jefferson? Madison? No. Other members of congress that tended to vote with Madison? Provide citations please. "Others", such as the democratic societies? That would belong in that article then. See Malone on the subject; III, 162,
"They referred to themselves as Demcorats again by 1812. [1]" This is plainly wrong as worded. I've provided references that show both Madison and Jefferson using Republican and republican when referring to the party after 1812, so this would have to be worded with a much more narrow focus to be considered accurate.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skyemoor ( talk • contribs) .
DEAR SIR,--I received, by the last mail, your welcome favor of the 10th instant. The newspapers had prepared me for the triumphant vote which restores a prodigal sister to the bosom of the Republican family, and evinces a return of grateful feelings for a revolutionary worthy. I congratulate you very sincerely on this event, with every wish that your administration may be as happy to yourself as I am confident it will be propitious to the welfare of those who have called you into it; and I may add, of those who resisted the call. The people are now able every where to compare the principles and policy of those who have borne the name of Republicans or Democrats with the career of the adverse party; and to see and feel that the former are as much in harmony with the spirit of the Nation and the genius of the Government as the latter was at variance with both.
1. The act of worship. 2. Profound love or regard.
Hamilton clearly expressed profound regard for Britain and the British governing structure. Unless you choose to disagree....? The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved October 29, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/adoration
The national party gradually assumed this name, until it split into Democrat and Republican in the 1920s.
This article should not attempt to include any generalizations about twentieth-century American politics. Least of all this one, which is thoroughly debateable: an anon already altered populist to centrist. As a statement about the early twentieth century, which was presumably the intention of populist, it is thoroughly dubious: that TR the Regulator more market-oriented than Bryan, Parker, or Wilson may be arguable, but not here, and not in Wikipedia's voice. Septentrionalis 17:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Everything I've read mentions caution about becoming entwined in alliances with European powers, but no inherent 'hostility'. And the relationship changed over time, so a brushstroke phrase removes too many complexities to be valid on its face. There were serious aggravations from a number of British actions, including impressment, neutral rights, and failure to live up key points in prior treaties that ultimately culminated in the declaration of war. But to use the phrase 'especially hostile' implies an undeserved aggressive belligerence, so please share with us the evidence you have assembled to support that position. Skyemoor 18:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Skyemoor should remember that WP:MOS is a {{ guideline}}; it's not set in stone, it does have exceptions.
Beyond that, it doesn't say what he thinks it does; there is no warrant there for bolding a confusing name like Republican Party or an anachronism like Jeffersonian Republicans.
- The Río de la Plata (from Spanish: “River of Silver”), also known by the English name River Plate, as in the Battle of the River Plate, or sometimes (La) Plata River.
If this continues, I will mark and defends tags guarding against these misrepresentations. Septentrionalis 01:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Mathews Dictionary of Americanisms (1951) p 902 has several cites for "Jeffersonian" in use 1799-1804 to designate a Republican candidate in state elections
In order to effectively use [ online article], one must first register at at http://journals.cambridge.org . I too thought the link was broken on first try.
"The Republican Party, founded by Jefferson and Madison, was swiftly renamed the Democratic Republican Party and its successor, in 1828, the Democratic Party." Settler, which part of Dahl's quote do you take exception to? He doesn't give a timeframe for the transformation from Republican to Democratic-Republican, so "swiftly" is therefore relative and ambiguous. Skyemoor 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Pmanderson|Septentrionalis had agreed to the wording of the first sentence (he wrote it himself) then choose to simultaneously counter the usage of Jefferson, Madison, historians, history textbooks, and WP:MOS by removing "Party" and bolding of the alternate names, hoping to swing world opinion instantly in his direction. Fortunately, he does not have control over the world's libraries and the internet, so the evidence against his position remains as strong as ever. Skyemoor 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)