This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject California, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
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@
Melcous: A tag was placed on this article, for
Notability. However, the following sources are from secondary and reliable sources. Could you provide further clarification regarding the additional elements you would prefer to include in order to enhance the notability of the article?
The following are included in the article:
Carmel: A History in Architecture by Kent Seavey.
Historic Homes and Inns of Carmel-by-the-Sea by lissandra Dramov and Lynn A. Momboisse.
A Tribute to Yesterday: The History of Carmel, Carmel by Sharron Lee Hale.
Creating Carmel: The Enduring Vision by Harold Gilliam, Ann Gilliam.
The following are not yet included:
Carmel-by-the-Sea by Monica Hudson.
Historic Buildings of Downtown Carmel-by-the-Sea by Alissandra Dramov.
Carmel-by-the-Sea: From Aborigines to Coastal Commission by Sydney Temple, Marguerite M. Temple.
Greghenderson2006, This is not first about sourcing but whether the person meets
WP:N. The arrticle appers to use non-reliable like family search alongside
WP:OR for biographical details, and then sources that mention his name as a builder but do not appear to provide significant coverage of his life per
WP:BASIC for his career. For example, a mention in someone else's locally published obituary
1 is to me a real stretch.
Melcous (
talk) 21:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you for this information. The obituary is for Wesley R. Hunter, the son of
Abbie Goldsmith (Hunter) a founding real estate agent for Carmel-by-the-Sea. Delos Goldsmith was her uncle. Delos Goldsmith was responsible for building the first hotel in Carmel called Hotel Carmelo, which became the
Pine Inn. I would like to improve the article, since Goldsmith was one of the earliest pioneers to come to Carmel in the 1900s and is responsible for building a lot of the buildings and homes. Since, I get edit right now, would you suggest Request Edits to show
WP:N?
Greg Henderson (
talk) 22:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Greghenderson2006, yes use request edit here, but can I suggest you focus on finding 2-3 sources that meet
WP:BASIC - that is they are reliable, independent (and preferably not local) sources that provide significant coverage of Goldsmith himself, not just tangential mentions of him.
Melcous (
talk) 22:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)reply
2-3 sources that meet WP:BASIC:
A Tribute to Yesterday by Sharron Lee Hale, pp. 6-8 10-11, 18-19: Several pages talk about Delos Goldsmith as leading builder, his birth, building Carmel's first bathhouse, first hotel, Hotel Carmelo, that became today's
Pine Inn.
Neal Hotelling talks about Goldsmith in a History Beat article and said that Delos Goldsmith, as a builder, was the "first business in Carmel." He talks about how he built a community beach house in 1892.
Under the "Career" section, please add to 2nd setence with citation saying: "From 1855 to 1859 Goldsmith left for
Marysville, and went to
Yuma, Arizona, and to
Fraser River in
British Columbia. He then returned to San Francisco, and from there departed for Ohio, where he engaged in the oil business at
Mecca until the outbreak of the
American Civil War, when he was appointed citizen wagon master of the
Twenty-ninth Ohio Volunteer Infantry in the
Union Army. He was assigned to the commissary department at
Harper's Ferry but was later captured as a prisoner of war. He managed to escape and eventually made it to
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. This marked the conclusion of his military service. In 1865, Goldsmith went south on a lumber-seeking expedition, meeting General
Fitzhugh Lee at
Whitehouse Landing, Virginia. By 1872, he was selling real estate in Ohio.[1] In 1879, he became an agent for Dr. Stockton, who was involved in the lumber industry in East Virginia. He stayed in this area for roughly three years before returning to the oil business, this time in Pennsylvania. By 1879, he had relocated to Cleveland, Ohio."[2]
References
^"Real Estate Transfers". Northern Ohio Journal. Painesville, Ohio. January 27, 1872. p. 3. Retrieved 2023-02-23.
Not done Parts of this seem to be copied directly from the source, and while I guess it's in the public domain I still feel it would be better to write this in our own words. This request has also been pending for a month with nobody willing to review it.
* Pppery *it has begun... 19:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)reply
From: "...was an American
master builder and one of the earliest settlers of Carmel-by-the-Sea."
To: "...was an American
master builder and the first professional builder of Carmel City."[1]: p353
Replace setence in "Carmel City" section:
From: "Goldsmith became the first builder in Carmel."
To: "Goldsmith was the first professional builder of Carmel City."[1]: p353
Replace setence in "Carmel-by-the-Sea" section:
From: "Goldsmith built a shed for his carpenter shop..."
To: "Goldsmith established the first business in Carmel, a carpenters shop on the street that would take the name, Carpenter Street. It was on the..."[1]: 389
Not done The first two parts are not supported by the source (a primary source which may not be reliable for this claim) - it says "arguably the first professional builder" whereas the requested text loses the arguably. The third part is copied directly from the source and should be written in Wikipedia's own words.
* Pppery *it has begun... 19:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Request Edit D
Part of an edit requested by an editor with a
partial block has been implemented.
"It stands as one of the first homes constructed in the newly established community of Carmel City. It is one of the few remaing examples or residental architecutre in Carmel City at the time of its formation in the late 1880s."[2]
Done the link addition. Not done the rest, as again too closely paraphrased from the source and also of questionable tone and relevance.
* Pppery *it has begun... 19:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)reply
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject California, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
U.S. state of California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CaliforniaWikipedia:WikiProject CaliforniaTemplate:WikiProject CaliforniaCalifornia articles
@
Melcous: A tag was placed on this article, for
Notability. However, the following sources are from secondary and reliable sources. Could you provide further clarification regarding the additional elements you would prefer to include in order to enhance the notability of the article?
The following are included in the article:
Carmel: A History in Architecture by Kent Seavey.
Historic Homes and Inns of Carmel-by-the-Sea by lissandra Dramov and Lynn A. Momboisse.
A Tribute to Yesterday: The History of Carmel, Carmel by Sharron Lee Hale.
Creating Carmel: The Enduring Vision by Harold Gilliam, Ann Gilliam.
The following are not yet included:
Carmel-by-the-Sea by Monica Hudson.
Historic Buildings of Downtown Carmel-by-the-Sea by Alissandra Dramov.
Carmel-by-the-Sea: From Aborigines to Coastal Commission by Sydney Temple, Marguerite M. Temple.
Greghenderson2006, This is not first about sourcing but whether the person meets
WP:N. The arrticle appers to use non-reliable like family search alongside
WP:OR for biographical details, and then sources that mention his name as a builder but do not appear to provide significant coverage of his life per
WP:BASIC for his career. For example, a mention in someone else's locally published obituary
1 is to me a real stretch.
Melcous (
talk) 21:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you for this information. The obituary is for Wesley R. Hunter, the son of
Abbie Goldsmith (Hunter) a founding real estate agent for Carmel-by-the-Sea. Delos Goldsmith was her uncle. Delos Goldsmith was responsible for building the first hotel in Carmel called Hotel Carmelo, which became the
Pine Inn. I would like to improve the article, since Goldsmith was one of the earliest pioneers to come to Carmel in the 1900s and is responsible for building a lot of the buildings and homes. Since, I get edit right now, would you suggest Request Edits to show
WP:N?
Greg Henderson (
talk) 22:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Greghenderson2006, yes use request edit here, but can I suggest you focus on finding 2-3 sources that meet
WP:BASIC - that is they are reliable, independent (and preferably not local) sources that provide significant coverage of Goldsmith himself, not just tangential mentions of him.
Melcous (
talk) 22:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)reply
2-3 sources that meet WP:BASIC:
A Tribute to Yesterday by Sharron Lee Hale, pp. 6-8 10-11, 18-19: Several pages talk about Delos Goldsmith as leading builder, his birth, building Carmel's first bathhouse, first hotel, Hotel Carmelo, that became today's
Pine Inn.
Neal Hotelling talks about Goldsmith in a History Beat article and said that Delos Goldsmith, as a builder, was the "first business in Carmel." He talks about how he built a community beach house in 1892.
Under the "Career" section, please add to 2nd setence with citation saying: "From 1855 to 1859 Goldsmith left for
Marysville, and went to
Yuma, Arizona, and to
Fraser River in
British Columbia. He then returned to San Francisco, and from there departed for Ohio, where he engaged in the oil business at
Mecca until the outbreak of the
American Civil War, when he was appointed citizen wagon master of the
Twenty-ninth Ohio Volunteer Infantry in the
Union Army. He was assigned to the commissary department at
Harper's Ferry but was later captured as a prisoner of war. He managed to escape and eventually made it to
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. This marked the conclusion of his military service. In 1865, Goldsmith went south on a lumber-seeking expedition, meeting General
Fitzhugh Lee at
Whitehouse Landing, Virginia. By 1872, he was selling real estate in Ohio.[1] In 1879, he became an agent for Dr. Stockton, who was involved in the lumber industry in East Virginia. He stayed in this area for roughly three years before returning to the oil business, this time in Pennsylvania. By 1879, he had relocated to Cleveland, Ohio."[2]
References
^"Real Estate Transfers". Northern Ohio Journal. Painesville, Ohio. January 27, 1872. p. 3. Retrieved 2023-02-23.
Not done Parts of this seem to be copied directly from the source, and while I guess it's in the public domain I still feel it would be better to write this in our own words. This request has also been pending for a month with nobody willing to review it.
* Pppery *it has begun... 19:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)reply
From: "...was an American
master builder and one of the earliest settlers of Carmel-by-the-Sea."
To: "...was an American
master builder and the first professional builder of Carmel City."[1]: p353
Replace setence in "Carmel City" section:
From: "Goldsmith became the first builder in Carmel."
To: "Goldsmith was the first professional builder of Carmel City."[1]: p353
Replace setence in "Carmel-by-the-Sea" section:
From: "Goldsmith built a shed for his carpenter shop..."
To: "Goldsmith established the first business in Carmel, a carpenters shop on the street that would take the name, Carpenter Street. It was on the..."[1]: 389
Not done The first two parts are not supported by the source (a primary source which may not be reliable for this claim) - it says "arguably the first professional builder" whereas the requested text loses the arguably. The third part is copied directly from the source and should be written in Wikipedia's own words.
* Pppery *it has begun... 19:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Request Edit D
Part of an edit requested by an editor with a
partial block has been implemented.
"It stands as one of the first homes constructed in the newly established community of Carmel City. It is one of the few remaing examples or residental architecutre in Carmel City at the time of its formation in the late 1880s."[2]
Done the link addition. Not done the rest, as again too closely paraphrased from the source and also of questionable tone and relevance.
* Pppery *it has begun... 19:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)reply