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(another bot archive, reposted the last few comments)
here's a brand new source denying them as nu-metal
http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/deftones-numetal-tag-still-anchor I call the big one bitey 22:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I strongly think that this article should have nu metal in the genre field. At least say "nu metal (early)" since their old stuff is nu metal. I mean really it mixes alt rock and metal and hip hop together and there are extremely reliable sources from musical geniuses/journalists and authors who prove their old sound as nu metal. I don't know why people don't call them nu metal. At least the 90s stuff. If you listen to songs like 7 Words, Nosebleed, Lotion and stuff then you'll think nu metal in your mind. I mean even 7 words has rapping in the song and even turntables. I bet the reason why they're rejected as nu metal by fans all the time is because they don't like that term or maybe they haven't listened to those songs and probably haven't listen to their pre-White Pony stuff. Can't we at least try adding nu metal? When I went on the talk page and some guy listed sources "Denying" them as nu metal, a couple were unreliable, but the reliable ones SPECIFICALLY said they were nu metal in their early years but in the early 2000s they abandoned that sound, saying they quit nu metal possibly in like 2000 or something. So thus, they ain't denying the band as nu metal. We should add it.
Stgw ( talk) 01:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
The intro states: " The group's original bassist was Chi Cheng, who fell in a coma following a 2008 car accident and died in 2013." Don't get me wrong, I've been a fan for years and I have a great repect for Cheng and the band, but it seems that the recent death is something more emotional rather than encyclopedia material... If we listed every band that had a death in the the band, it usually ends up in the body of the article, not the intro. The Deftones article is about the band as a whole. While the death has upset many of us, I do not really find it necessary for the intro. I have not taken it out because I do not want to upset anyone and I'd much rather discuss this first. 98.198.85.83 ( talk) 11:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
i think Deftones should also be labeled as nu metal, post-metal, and shoegazing. If you look at their albums, some of them are labeled as nu metal, shoegazing, and post-metal. 2:13 March 29, 2013 (UTC)
Alternative metal and experimental rock best reflects their current work. Only ½ of their first 3 albums are nu metal, and only a few of their songs can be called "post-metal", "shoegazing", "dream pop" etc. I call the big one bitey 08:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Stgw ( talk) 01:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Stgw ( talk) 23:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Fine with me. I call the big one bitey 00:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Btw here's ANOTHER source supporting the opinion that the bands early work is nu metal, and that the band has evolved past that sound http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/2013/03/deftones_frank_delgado_intervi.php I call the big one bitey 22:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Would be better for the discussion, that the users that believe that "nu metal" must be present in the infobox bring sources, we had a discussion about it some months ago, and ended with the exclusion of "nu metal" due more than 20 sources disagreeing on the band being such: [1], until then please do not modify the infobox. Trascendence ( talk) 03:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Several of your sources can't be confirmed or state that the band already moved from nu metal. Finally, there has never been a consensus regarding the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox, there have been discussions since the genre was added in it.
I did a research in the archive and i brought this back:
[24]"They’d finally done it; here was an album that was undeniably innovative, frequently amazing, and indisputably unlike nu-metal"
[25] "The point is clear: for their fourth album, Sacramento's doomiest have left nu-metal behind for rather more emotional territory"
[26] "Deftones have been pegged as everything from alternative metal, to post-grunge, to the even more inaccurate description of “nu-metal”
[27] "It seems positively ridiculous to think of Deftones in terms of the nu metal scene they were lumped into"
[28] "Though they successfully shook off any nu-metal shackles with said third album"
[29] "Nu-metal was hitting its high point during this time, and the Deftones were unwillingly lumped into that genre"
[30] "Though the band rose to fame during the nü-metal phenomenon (and, unfortunately, became lumped in with it)"
[31] "people look back on the album as either the point the band moved away from nu metal..."
[32] "They took their nu-metal positioning and flipped it on its head"
[33] "The record's finely realized textures stand apart from most of their nu-metal counterparts"
[34] "Deftones were able to escape the moronic nu metal mire"
[35] "they never really fit the Nu-metal mould. Their music was too layered and atmospheric while Chino Moreno’s lyrics were too poetic and cryptic for the average meathead who listened to Papa Roach and Disturbed"
[36] “I thought we really separated ourselves from that nu-metal thing with White Pony (the band’s third record in 2001),” he says. “I think we’re way beyond any of that; a lot of those types of bands, for the most part not too many of them are around. We’re still growing and making records"
[37] "On White
Pony, their third album, Deftones have created an record of breathtaking contrasts,
setting themselves even further apart from their so-called 'nu metal' counterparts"
[38] " The Deftones were always one of the best bands saddled with the “nu metal” tag. It’s really unfair to lump them in with asinine groups like Limp Bizkit and Disturbed"
[39] "Abe Cunningham’s thunderous yet musical and precise drumming helped set the band miles apart from the many nu-metal acts they’re often, and for the most part unfairly, lumped in with"
[40] "now completely breaking away from the nu-metal label they were unfairly tarnished with and standing out from the cookie cutter bands that were popping up at the time"
[41] "Often lumped in, unfairly, with some of nu-metal's most offensive acts, Deftones..."
[42] "Despite occasionally being lumped (wrongly) into the nu-metal movement, Sacramento alternative headbangers Deftones have enjoyed a long, prosperous career since forming in 1988"
All those, added to the ones brought in by other editors outweight the confirmable ones that support the nu metal tag. They also leave more than clear that the specialized press opposes to the idea of the band being labeled as nu metal, confirming the genre for irrelevant, therefore it shouldn't be in the infobox. It is mentioned on the musical style section, and on it's early albums, which is were it belongs.
Trascendence (
talk)
03:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
That's pretty much irrelevant since i'm 100% sure that the number of sources calling them nu metal far outweigh the ones denying them as it, or the ones calling them other genres. Just google Deftones and check out all the news article's about Chi's death, nearly all of them label Deftones as nu metal, which just goes to show that the majority of the mainstream media consider Deftones to be a nu metal band. I don't necessarily agree with them being tagged as nu metal, but that's what the sources say, and on Wikipedia sources trump anyone's personal opinion. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 06:08, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
The best solution would be to leave out "nu-metal" and keep "alternative metal," considering "nu-metal" FALLS UNDER the category of "alternative metal." I've never understood this constantly re-emerging argument, as "nu-metal" is, more or less, a "sub-genre" of "alternative metal." "Alternative metal" already covers "nu-metal." Madreterra ( talk) 23:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
HrZ, how is possible that sources saying things like "Despite occasionally being lumped (wrongly) into the nu-metal movement" or "people look back on the album as either the point the band moved away from nu metal" don't support the idea of the band not being it? they still bring more support to they idea of they not being than to they being it. As of now, there are more quoted sources that refute the band being nu metal than ones saying it is (and most are outdated). Trascendence ( talk) 03:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually you'll find back in the 90s most nu metal bands were just called alternative metal, it's only more recently the media have started labelling bands nu metal, a term which basically didn't exist in the late 90s/early 00s when nu metal was most popular. Also to say nu metal shouldn't be included in the infobox since it's a subgenre of alternative metal is like saying Nirvana shouldn't be labelled as grunge since they are already tagged as alternative rock which covers grunge. Everyone here should see the the Alice in Chains page, a lot of editors disagree with them being labelled grunge and their new albums aren't even taggeed with that, but it's included since there are numerous sources supporting it. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 21:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
If we're gonna remove experimental rock (which i would support) then how about alternative rock in the infobox? since there are a plethora of sources old and new labelling them as that genre, which i'm sort of surprised to see is not included in the infobox along with nu metal. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 16:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
You are missing an important point regarding post-metal: That there is no sources denying Deftones being a post-metal band, only sources that agree (unlike nu metal that is way too controversial when it comes to this band). I've brought 18 sources that deny nu metal plus other two sources bring in by other editors (
[50],
[51]) that's it, 20 sources denying them being nu-metal against 11 saying they are (most outdated), if you want more, here you go:
[52] "Sam tracks down Serj Tankian of System Of A Down and Deftones' Chino Moreno, revealing their profound dissatisfaction with being lumped in with the nu metal movement, and how they managed to break the shackles that befell so many of their contemporaries"
[53] "What's key about Deftones' ascent is that even though they were lumped in with nu metal – love it or hate it, it defined a time and place as much as grunge did, except with far more commercial success and visibility – they publicly disavowed it, despite being as obvious an influence on as many bands as, say, Linkin Park or Korn"
[54] Title: "Deftones overcoming the nu metal label"
As of now, there are more sources denying the nu metal tag than ones that agree on it. Trascendence ( talk) 03:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Yeah well those all say they were nu metal in their early years and after the 90s they abadndoned the sound. Seriously, and when they say they were unfairly lumped with nu metal, that does NOT mean they are directly denying the band as nu metal. They say nu metal was bad but Deftones were good and shouldn't be compared to likes of korn/slipknot/etc but that doesn't mean they ain't nu metal. They ARE. Listen to 7 words or something. It's NU METAL. it has hip hop in it. even 7 words has rapping in it. Listen to nosebleed, lotion etc. The reason why people call them nu metal is cause they rejected the label. That's why everyone denies Acacia strain as deathcore, because the singer rejected the label. Just cause the band rejects the label, doesn't mean they aren't nu metal. If they move from the genre, that obviously means they were nu metal (EARLY). A7X were originally metalcore and their page says metalcore (early) in the box. We can't remove metalcore. We can add nu metal (Early). also you're the only one who won't agree to add nu metal anyways. I mean really, how can they not be nu metal when you hear hip hop ful on in 7 words, lotion, etc and 7 words has rapping in it, korn guitar riffs. Their old stuff sounds a ton like Korn. Even Chino collaborated with korn before in the 90s, in the 2000s, that's when they stopped playing nu metal, doesn't stop the fact that they were nu metal (early). and deftones also were known as one of the bands who set up the nu metal movement, whether people can't accept they were nu metal or not, they are nu metal. Even rolling stone call them nu metal, and rolling stone are some the best reviewers, even nu metal authors who knew everything to define nu metal, knew the definition of the genre, etc described them as nu metal and proved it by saying what they sound like.
Listen to their 90s stuff.
Metal elements from alt metal? CHECK Grunge/alternative rock sounds? Check Down tuned guitars? check Hip hop elements and rhythms? Check DJ? Check
It's obvious their old stuff is nu metal. Seriously, people who deny them as nu metal actually think white pony is their debut, or at least never heard their 90s stuff, or they can't call them nu metal cuz the band rejected it. Here are many sources describing them nu metal.
Seriously, let's just add "nu metal (early)", which will imply they USED TO BE nu metal, but later stopped. It's fine. Adding early is used all the time. Trust me, it's okay. And even people will need to listen to their debut or second album and the song 7 words and stuff, they'll finally be convinced Deftones are a nu metal band. And there's more people agreeing than disagreeing here anyways.
Stgw ( talk) 23:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually a lot call them and saying they were lumped wit nu metal doesn't mean they aren't it says they are an exception for nu metal. Also that's why add the early tag like u do on a7x and Soulfly see their genres — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
174.236.230.146 (
talk)
22:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
(another bot archive, reposted the last few comments)
here's a brand new source denying them as nu-metal
http://hamptonroads.com/2013/03/deftones-numetal-tag-still-anchor I call the big one bitey 22:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I strongly think that this article should have nu metal in the genre field. At least say "nu metal (early)" since their old stuff is nu metal. I mean really it mixes alt rock and metal and hip hop together and there are extremely reliable sources from musical geniuses/journalists and authors who prove their old sound as nu metal. I don't know why people don't call them nu metal. At least the 90s stuff. If you listen to songs like 7 Words, Nosebleed, Lotion and stuff then you'll think nu metal in your mind. I mean even 7 words has rapping in the song and even turntables. I bet the reason why they're rejected as nu metal by fans all the time is because they don't like that term or maybe they haven't listened to those songs and probably haven't listen to their pre-White Pony stuff. Can't we at least try adding nu metal? When I went on the talk page and some guy listed sources "Denying" them as nu metal, a couple were unreliable, but the reliable ones SPECIFICALLY said they were nu metal in their early years but in the early 2000s they abandoned that sound, saying they quit nu metal possibly in like 2000 or something. So thus, they ain't denying the band as nu metal. We should add it.
Stgw ( talk) 01:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
The intro states: " The group's original bassist was Chi Cheng, who fell in a coma following a 2008 car accident and died in 2013." Don't get me wrong, I've been a fan for years and I have a great repect for Cheng and the band, but it seems that the recent death is something more emotional rather than encyclopedia material... If we listed every band that had a death in the the band, it usually ends up in the body of the article, not the intro. The Deftones article is about the band as a whole. While the death has upset many of us, I do not really find it necessary for the intro. I have not taken it out because I do not want to upset anyone and I'd much rather discuss this first. 98.198.85.83 ( talk) 11:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
i think Deftones should also be labeled as nu metal, post-metal, and shoegazing. If you look at their albums, some of them are labeled as nu metal, shoegazing, and post-metal. 2:13 March 29, 2013 (UTC)
Alternative metal and experimental rock best reflects their current work. Only ½ of their first 3 albums are nu metal, and only a few of their songs can be called "post-metal", "shoegazing", "dream pop" etc. I call the big one bitey 08:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Stgw ( talk) 01:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Stgw ( talk) 23:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Fine with me. I call the big one bitey 00:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Btw here's ANOTHER source supporting the opinion that the bands early work is nu metal, and that the band has evolved past that sound http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/2013/03/deftones_frank_delgado_intervi.php I call the big one bitey 22:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Would be better for the discussion, that the users that believe that "nu metal" must be present in the infobox bring sources, we had a discussion about it some months ago, and ended with the exclusion of "nu metal" due more than 20 sources disagreeing on the band being such: [1], until then please do not modify the infobox. Trascendence ( talk) 03:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Several of your sources can't be confirmed or state that the band already moved from nu metal. Finally, there has never been a consensus regarding the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox, there have been discussions since the genre was added in it.
I did a research in the archive and i brought this back:
[24]"They’d finally done it; here was an album that was undeniably innovative, frequently amazing, and indisputably unlike nu-metal"
[25] "The point is clear: for their fourth album, Sacramento's doomiest have left nu-metal behind for rather more emotional territory"
[26] "Deftones have been pegged as everything from alternative metal, to post-grunge, to the even more inaccurate description of “nu-metal”
[27] "It seems positively ridiculous to think of Deftones in terms of the nu metal scene they were lumped into"
[28] "Though they successfully shook off any nu-metal shackles with said third album"
[29] "Nu-metal was hitting its high point during this time, and the Deftones were unwillingly lumped into that genre"
[30] "Though the band rose to fame during the nü-metal phenomenon (and, unfortunately, became lumped in with it)"
[31] "people look back on the album as either the point the band moved away from nu metal..."
[32] "They took their nu-metal positioning and flipped it on its head"
[33] "The record's finely realized textures stand apart from most of their nu-metal counterparts"
[34] "Deftones were able to escape the moronic nu metal mire"
[35] "they never really fit the Nu-metal mould. Their music was too layered and atmospheric while Chino Moreno’s lyrics were too poetic and cryptic for the average meathead who listened to Papa Roach and Disturbed"
[36] “I thought we really separated ourselves from that nu-metal thing with White Pony (the band’s third record in 2001),” he says. “I think we’re way beyond any of that; a lot of those types of bands, for the most part not too many of them are around. We’re still growing and making records"
[37] "On White
Pony, their third album, Deftones have created an record of breathtaking contrasts,
setting themselves even further apart from their so-called 'nu metal' counterparts"
[38] " The Deftones were always one of the best bands saddled with the “nu metal” tag. It’s really unfair to lump them in with asinine groups like Limp Bizkit and Disturbed"
[39] "Abe Cunningham’s thunderous yet musical and precise drumming helped set the band miles apart from the many nu-metal acts they’re often, and for the most part unfairly, lumped in with"
[40] "now completely breaking away from the nu-metal label they were unfairly tarnished with and standing out from the cookie cutter bands that were popping up at the time"
[41] "Often lumped in, unfairly, with some of nu-metal's most offensive acts, Deftones..."
[42] "Despite occasionally being lumped (wrongly) into the nu-metal movement, Sacramento alternative headbangers Deftones have enjoyed a long, prosperous career since forming in 1988"
All those, added to the ones brought in by other editors outweight the confirmable ones that support the nu metal tag. They also leave more than clear that the specialized press opposes to the idea of the band being labeled as nu metal, confirming the genre for irrelevant, therefore it shouldn't be in the infobox. It is mentioned on the musical style section, and on it's early albums, which is were it belongs.
Trascendence (
talk)
03:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
That's pretty much irrelevant since i'm 100% sure that the number of sources calling them nu metal far outweigh the ones denying them as it, or the ones calling them other genres. Just google Deftones and check out all the news article's about Chi's death, nearly all of them label Deftones as nu metal, which just goes to show that the majority of the mainstream media consider Deftones to be a nu metal band. I don't necessarily agree with them being tagged as nu metal, but that's what the sources say, and on Wikipedia sources trump anyone's personal opinion. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 06:08, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
The best solution would be to leave out "nu-metal" and keep "alternative metal," considering "nu-metal" FALLS UNDER the category of "alternative metal." I've never understood this constantly re-emerging argument, as "nu-metal" is, more or less, a "sub-genre" of "alternative metal." "Alternative metal" already covers "nu-metal." Madreterra ( talk) 23:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
HrZ, how is possible that sources saying things like "Despite occasionally being lumped (wrongly) into the nu-metal movement" or "people look back on the album as either the point the band moved away from nu metal" don't support the idea of the band not being it? they still bring more support to they idea of they not being than to they being it. As of now, there are more quoted sources that refute the band being nu metal than ones saying it is (and most are outdated). Trascendence ( talk) 03:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually you'll find back in the 90s most nu metal bands were just called alternative metal, it's only more recently the media have started labelling bands nu metal, a term which basically didn't exist in the late 90s/early 00s when nu metal was most popular. Also to say nu metal shouldn't be included in the infobox since it's a subgenre of alternative metal is like saying Nirvana shouldn't be labelled as grunge since they are already tagged as alternative rock which covers grunge. Everyone here should see the the Alice in Chains page, a lot of editors disagree with them being labelled grunge and their new albums aren't even taggeed with that, but it's included since there are numerous sources supporting it. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 21:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
If we're gonna remove experimental rock (which i would support) then how about alternative rock in the infobox? since there are a plethora of sources old and new labelling them as that genre, which i'm sort of surprised to see is not included in the infobox along with nu metal. I call the big one bitey ( talk) 16:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
You are missing an important point regarding post-metal: That there is no sources denying Deftones being a post-metal band, only sources that agree (unlike nu metal that is way too controversial when it comes to this band). I've brought 18 sources that deny nu metal plus other two sources bring in by other editors (
[50],
[51]) that's it, 20 sources denying them being nu-metal against 11 saying they are (most outdated), if you want more, here you go:
[52] "Sam tracks down Serj Tankian of System Of A Down and Deftones' Chino Moreno, revealing their profound dissatisfaction with being lumped in with the nu metal movement, and how they managed to break the shackles that befell so many of their contemporaries"
[53] "What's key about Deftones' ascent is that even though they were lumped in with nu metal – love it or hate it, it defined a time and place as much as grunge did, except with far more commercial success and visibility – they publicly disavowed it, despite being as obvious an influence on as many bands as, say, Linkin Park or Korn"
[54] Title: "Deftones overcoming the nu metal label"
As of now, there are more sources denying the nu metal tag than ones that agree on it. Trascendence ( talk) 03:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Yeah well those all say they were nu metal in their early years and after the 90s they abadndoned the sound. Seriously, and when they say they were unfairly lumped with nu metal, that does NOT mean they are directly denying the band as nu metal. They say nu metal was bad but Deftones were good and shouldn't be compared to likes of korn/slipknot/etc but that doesn't mean they ain't nu metal. They ARE. Listen to 7 words or something. It's NU METAL. it has hip hop in it. even 7 words has rapping in it. Listen to nosebleed, lotion etc. The reason why people call them nu metal is cause they rejected the label. That's why everyone denies Acacia strain as deathcore, because the singer rejected the label. Just cause the band rejects the label, doesn't mean they aren't nu metal. If they move from the genre, that obviously means they were nu metal (EARLY). A7X were originally metalcore and their page says metalcore (early) in the box. We can't remove metalcore. We can add nu metal (Early). also you're the only one who won't agree to add nu metal anyways. I mean really, how can they not be nu metal when you hear hip hop ful on in 7 words, lotion, etc and 7 words has rapping in it, korn guitar riffs. Their old stuff sounds a ton like Korn. Even Chino collaborated with korn before in the 90s, in the 2000s, that's when they stopped playing nu metal, doesn't stop the fact that they were nu metal (early). and deftones also were known as one of the bands who set up the nu metal movement, whether people can't accept they were nu metal or not, they are nu metal. Even rolling stone call them nu metal, and rolling stone are some the best reviewers, even nu metal authors who knew everything to define nu metal, knew the definition of the genre, etc described them as nu metal and proved it by saying what they sound like.
Listen to their 90s stuff.
Metal elements from alt metal? CHECK Grunge/alternative rock sounds? Check Down tuned guitars? check Hip hop elements and rhythms? Check DJ? Check
It's obvious their old stuff is nu metal. Seriously, people who deny them as nu metal actually think white pony is their debut, or at least never heard their 90s stuff, or they can't call them nu metal cuz the band rejected it. Here are many sources describing them nu metal.
Seriously, let's just add "nu metal (early)", which will imply they USED TO BE nu metal, but later stopped. It's fine. Adding early is used all the time. Trust me, it's okay. And even people will need to listen to their debut or second album and the song 7 words and stuff, they'll finally be convinced Deftones are a nu metal band. And there's more people agreeing than disagreeing here anyways.
Stgw ( talk) 23:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually a lot call them and saying they were lumped wit nu metal doesn't mean they aren't it says they are an exception for nu metal. Also that's why add the early tag like u do on a7x and Soulfly see their genres — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
174.236.230.146 (
talk)
22:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)