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Comment: It's completely nuts to use new articles for the "Did you know?" section--they haven't had a chance to be checked for accuracy. Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no such disease as "military death". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 23:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
That was NOT Mozart's skull found by Joseph Rothmayer. For one thing, the number of teeth are wrong. And Rothmayer didn't even know where Mozart's bones were located since graves were "recycled" and re-used after 7-10 years, as was the custom at that time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 17:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be merged with the main article on Mozart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mithel ( talk • contribs) 03:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I've come to feel very uneasy about including the following section in the article. A number of its claims have no reference source at all, and the sources that are given seem to be amateur Web sources--which, I think, are very untrustable when we're dealing with a sensational, popular subject like this.
I think it would be fine to include a "Skull" section in this article, but only if the references sources are totally legit, by which I mean, peer-reviewed professional scholarship.
I hope other editors (notably, whoever wrote these passages) will understand.
Yours sincerely, Opus33 18:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Response in reference to: "Mozart was NOT buried in a "communal" grave with other bodies. He was buried in a common, typical grave, alone." This information came from an MSA article (Mozart Society of America), January, 1998, by Walther Brauneis, originally written in 1991: "Mozart was buried in a "common individual grave" (allgemeines einfaches Grab), where the word "common" (allgemein), in keeping with the usage in the Josephone era [Emperor Joseph II], cannot be equated with "joint" or "communal" (gemeinschaftlich)." Definition of the word "Allgemein" (1987): "adjective - general, common, universal." Therefore, "common" meant "general/typical/usual" rather than "shared/joint/communal" at this time, in this context. Therefore, it can be said with confidence that Mozart was buried in a "typical, plain, individual grave", possibly in a coffin, possibly without a coffin (Emporer Joseph II modified the no-coffin rule at some point, due to public protest over his no-coffin decree for 3rd class burials), as the only occupant - not a mass grave or multi-person grave. Einfach = simple/single/plain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 09:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Walther Brauneis is a Mozart scholar - one of the best. He has an office next door to St. Michael's Church in Vienna, where a portion of the Requiem may have been performed a few days after Mozart's death.
Mozart's skull (from many sources): Constance first visited the cemetery in 1808, in search of Wolfgang's grave. The original gravedigger had died by then, and she spoke with Joseph Rothmeyer, another gravedigger. He told Constanze that he did not know the exact location of the grave. But the grave had probably been recycled several years earlier, anyway (by 1801). How he could determine the location of Mozart's body, in a recycled grave, 17 years after burial, when he was not the gravedigger, then find Mozart's skull (with the wrong number of teeth) boggles the mind. Personal communication from Brendan Cormican, Mozart expert and author: "You will probably recall that Constanze did visit the cemetery in 1808 and asked a Joseph Rothmeyer if he could say where her late husband was buried. Rothmeyer could not help but the irony is that we now can identify the spot where Rothmeyer was laid to rest." See: http://www.amazon.com/Mozarts-Death-Requiem-Investigation/dp/0951035703 (Cormican's book - out of stock) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem_(Mozart) . See also "Mozart - His Character, His Work" by Alfred Einstein, 1945, Oxford University Press, page 74. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 10:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Military death: There is no such disease as "military death", just as there is no such disease as "measles Death." We do not know of what disease or condition Mozart died, but "miliary fever" was listed on the death certificate by Dr. Closset. See: http://www.auburnsymphony.com/explorethemusic_mozart.htm which is a website run by the Auburn California orchestra. From their website: "The actual cause of Mozart's death is also a matter of conjecture. His death record listed "hitziges Frieselfieber" ("severe miliary fever," referring to a rash that looks like millet-seeds), a description that does not suffice to identify the cause as it would be diagnosed in modern medicine. Dozens of theories have been proposed, including trichinosis, mercury poisoning, and rheumatic fever. The practice, common at that time, of bleeding medical patients is also cited as a contributing cause."
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 09:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Nothing was plagiarized from Wikipedia. The "miliary fever" quote was taken from the website cited, using a web citation for ease of confirmation, rather than a book. Looking up citations in books takes longer. The ref to "miliary fever" is in many documents, and has been for many years - long before Wikipedia existed.
Thanks. No problem. A better reference would be good under the circumstances. Yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.104.141 ( talk) 00:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Maynard Solomon is a theorist, is sometimes unable to translate German correctly, and his book on Mozart should not be trusted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 23:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Mozart was NOT buried in a "communal" grave with other bodies. He was buried in a common, typical grave, alone.
This seems terser, and given Mozart's fame, unambiguous. Opus33 17:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone else been to the cemetery and his grave. There is an ancient tomb stone there and an angel. The people at the cemetery claimed Mozart's body was later found and reburried. I know the tomb stone I saw and photographed was very ancient and from the early 1800's. Anyone else been there?-- The-Scriptorium ( talk) 11:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Currently, refname "CastleOfSpirits" is bad in that it does not have any text. (See note 27) Was the full citation deleted from an earlier version? DavidRF ( talk) 22:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the intro mention that Mozart was nearly 36 years old at his death? -- Hogne ( talk) 20:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I think its fair to say that medicine was primitive in Mozart's day. Doctors engaged in bloodletting, harming their patients; and were unaware of the role of bacteria and viruses. They also had a strong adherence to the crackpot theory of "humors". You can read more in Ruth Halliwell's book The Mozart Family. Opus33 ( talk) 15:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The article really should have a section about the fictional version of Mozart's death in the movie Amadeus. Das Baz, aka Erudil 21:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
The last paragraph in this section has several problems which I believe ought to be addressed.
It is claimed that an article in PubMed suggests that Mozart's death was due to subdural hematoma. While the citation is given at the bottom of the passage, I think that it is improper to imply that the article was 'in' PubMed- an online repository for databasing scientific literature. It would appear that the article was published in the journal Neurology http://www.neurology.org/content/43/11/2400.short
Furthermore, I get the impression that much of the rest of the paragrah was simply copy-pasted from the article's abstract, with very minor or no modifications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadlese ( talk • contribs) 05:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
This passage referring to Solomon is just a mess:
What is the proof that Mozart was referring to Dr. Closset? Which one of the Closset brothers is being meant her? Thomas or Nikolaus? Solomon's musings on Nissen are taken as a gospel here, but most of this is pure speculation.-- 178.191.48.100 ( talk) 06:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
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I've just heard a respected radio announcer broadcast YET AGAIN the erroneous information that Mozart was buried in a "pauper's grave, as was the custom at that time". What was the custom at the time was that anyone who wasn't an aristocrat was liable to be buried in a common grave, along with other people. You didn't have to be a pauper to get that treatment.
Can we say something in the article that will stop people spreading this lie about a supposed pauper's grave? I know we prefer to talk about what was the case, not what was not the case, but we do serve an educative purpose and sometimes we need to disabuse people of their misconceptions. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Bloodletting is talked of as though it only happened on one occasion, but Hildesheimer says that up to 3 litres of blood were let during Mozart's last 12 days of life. And I'm not sure Hildesheimer asks questions about Mozart's last fortnight, just his last hours, but I did skim some of it out of boredom. Fuficius Fango ( talk) 10:12, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Why is this article categorised under "Conspiracy theories"? 91.109.245.190 ( talk) 19:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
47.224.235.79 ( talk) 23:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)anonymous
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Comment: It's completely nuts to use new articles for the "Did you know?" section--they haven't had a chance to be checked for accuracy. Opus33 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no such disease as "military death". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 23:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
That was NOT Mozart's skull found by Joseph Rothmayer. For one thing, the number of teeth are wrong. And Rothmayer didn't even know where Mozart's bones were located since graves were "recycled" and re-used after 7-10 years, as was the custom at that time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 17:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be merged with the main article on Mozart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mithel ( talk • contribs) 03:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I've come to feel very uneasy about including the following section in the article. A number of its claims have no reference source at all, and the sources that are given seem to be amateur Web sources--which, I think, are very untrustable when we're dealing with a sensational, popular subject like this.
I think it would be fine to include a "Skull" section in this article, but only if the references sources are totally legit, by which I mean, peer-reviewed professional scholarship.
I hope other editors (notably, whoever wrote these passages) will understand.
Yours sincerely, Opus33 18:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Response in reference to: "Mozart was NOT buried in a "communal" grave with other bodies. He was buried in a common, typical grave, alone." This information came from an MSA article (Mozart Society of America), January, 1998, by Walther Brauneis, originally written in 1991: "Mozart was buried in a "common individual grave" (allgemeines einfaches Grab), where the word "common" (allgemein), in keeping with the usage in the Josephone era [Emperor Joseph II], cannot be equated with "joint" or "communal" (gemeinschaftlich)." Definition of the word "Allgemein" (1987): "adjective - general, common, universal." Therefore, "common" meant "general/typical/usual" rather than "shared/joint/communal" at this time, in this context. Therefore, it can be said with confidence that Mozart was buried in a "typical, plain, individual grave", possibly in a coffin, possibly without a coffin (Emporer Joseph II modified the no-coffin rule at some point, due to public protest over his no-coffin decree for 3rd class burials), as the only occupant - not a mass grave or multi-person grave. Einfach = simple/single/plain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 09:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Walther Brauneis is a Mozart scholar - one of the best. He has an office next door to St. Michael's Church in Vienna, where a portion of the Requiem may have been performed a few days after Mozart's death.
Mozart's skull (from many sources): Constance first visited the cemetery in 1808, in search of Wolfgang's grave. The original gravedigger had died by then, and she spoke with Joseph Rothmeyer, another gravedigger. He told Constanze that he did not know the exact location of the grave. But the grave had probably been recycled several years earlier, anyway (by 1801). How he could determine the location of Mozart's body, in a recycled grave, 17 years after burial, when he was not the gravedigger, then find Mozart's skull (with the wrong number of teeth) boggles the mind. Personal communication from Brendan Cormican, Mozart expert and author: "You will probably recall that Constanze did visit the cemetery in 1808 and asked a Joseph Rothmeyer if he could say where her late husband was buried. Rothmeyer could not help but the irony is that we now can identify the spot where Rothmeyer was laid to rest." See: http://www.amazon.com/Mozarts-Death-Requiem-Investigation/dp/0951035703 (Cormican's book - out of stock) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem_(Mozart) . See also "Mozart - His Character, His Work" by Alfred Einstein, 1945, Oxford University Press, page 74. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 10:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Military death: There is no such disease as "military death", just as there is no such disease as "measles Death." We do not know of what disease or condition Mozart died, but "miliary fever" was listed on the death certificate by Dr. Closset. See: http://www.auburnsymphony.com/explorethemusic_mozart.htm which is a website run by the Auburn California orchestra. From their website: "The actual cause of Mozart's death is also a matter of conjecture. His death record listed "hitziges Frieselfieber" ("severe miliary fever," referring to a rash that looks like millet-seeds), a description that does not suffice to identify the cause as it would be diagnosed in modern medicine. Dozens of theories have been proposed, including trichinosis, mercury poisoning, and rheumatic fever. The practice, common at that time, of bleeding medical patients is also cited as a contributing cause."
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 09:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Nothing was plagiarized from Wikipedia. The "miliary fever" quote was taken from the website cited, using a web citation for ease of confirmation, rather than a book. Looking up citations in books takes longer. The ref to "miliary fever" is in many documents, and has been for many years - long before Wikipedia existed.
Thanks. No problem. A better reference would be good under the circumstances. Yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.104.141 ( talk) 00:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Maynard Solomon is a theorist, is sometimes unable to translate German correctly, and his book on Mozart should not be trusted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.206.157 ( talk) 23:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Mozart was NOT buried in a "communal" grave with other bodies. He was buried in a common, typical grave, alone.
This seems terser, and given Mozart's fame, unambiguous. Opus33 17:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone else been to the cemetery and his grave. There is an ancient tomb stone there and an angel. The people at the cemetery claimed Mozart's body was later found and reburried. I know the tomb stone I saw and photographed was very ancient and from the early 1800's. Anyone else been there?-- The-Scriptorium ( talk) 11:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Currently, refname "CastleOfSpirits" is bad in that it does not have any text. (See note 27) Was the full citation deleted from an earlier version? DavidRF ( talk) 22:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the intro mention that Mozart was nearly 36 years old at his death? -- Hogne ( talk) 20:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I think its fair to say that medicine was primitive in Mozart's day. Doctors engaged in bloodletting, harming their patients; and were unaware of the role of bacteria and viruses. They also had a strong adherence to the crackpot theory of "humors". You can read more in Ruth Halliwell's book The Mozart Family. Opus33 ( talk) 15:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The article really should have a section about the fictional version of Mozart's death in the movie Amadeus. Das Baz, aka Erudil 21:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
The last paragraph in this section has several problems which I believe ought to be addressed.
It is claimed that an article in PubMed suggests that Mozart's death was due to subdural hematoma. While the citation is given at the bottom of the passage, I think that it is improper to imply that the article was 'in' PubMed- an online repository for databasing scientific literature. It would appear that the article was published in the journal Neurology http://www.neurology.org/content/43/11/2400.short
Furthermore, I get the impression that much of the rest of the paragrah was simply copy-pasted from the article's abstract, with very minor or no modifications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadlese ( talk • contribs) 05:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
This passage referring to Solomon is just a mess:
What is the proof that Mozart was referring to Dr. Closset? Which one of the Closset brothers is being meant her? Thomas or Nikolaus? Solomon's musings on Nissen are taken as a gospel here, but most of this is pure speculation.-- 178.191.48.100 ( talk) 06:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
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I've just heard a respected radio announcer broadcast YET AGAIN the erroneous information that Mozart was buried in a "pauper's grave, as was the custom at that time". What was the custom at the time was that anyone who wasn't an aristocrat was liable to be buried in a common grave, along with other people. You didn't have to be a pauper to get that treatment.
Can we say something in the article that will stop people spreading this lie about a supposed pauper's grave? I know we prefer to talk about what was the case, not what was not the case, but we do serve an educative purpose and sometimes we need to disabuse people of their misconceptions. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Bloodletting is talked of as though it only happened on one occasion, but Hildesheimer says that up to 3 litres of blood were let during Mozart's last 12 days of life. And I'm not sure Hildesheimer asks questions about Mozart's last fortnight, just his last hours, but I did skim some of it out of boredom. Fuficius Fango ( talk) 10:12, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Why is this article categorised under "Conspiracy theories"? 91.109.245.190 ( talk) 19:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
47.224.235.79 ( talk) 23:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)anonymous