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Maybe we can find some? I'll try. -- Tom 22:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The Nazis intended to kill all of them? How many completed the "death march"? How many walked - how many took the train? Any stats on any of this - Anne Frank can't be the only one strong enough to have made the trip. 159.105.80.141 19:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Shut up, you Neo-Nazi Scumbag. We should build an Auschwitz just to put you inhuman beasts in. Make you feel the pain of those whose deaths you deny. THEN maybe you will see the truth.But I doubt it. Your just subhuman animals, too dumb too understand anytng but hate and malice.As I said, you're an animal and should be slaughtered like an animal. Then your meat should be sold to starving African Children. I'm sure they'll enjoy a Meal of Homo Malignus Neonazius —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.132.87 ( talk) 03:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I removed a huge chunk or material about Nazi vs Japannese marchs as original research. -- Tom 17:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Could we please add information about the Tiger Death March in Korea? Very famous one, too. 24.214.79.87 ( talk) 19:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The article gives examples of death marches without saying what a death march is. -- Thenickdude ( talk) 11:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The following two sources claim it was not Israel who expelled the Palestinians, but rather their own leaders: Benny Morris, Righteous Victims (New York: Vintage Books, 2001) p.g.256, 211 Alan Dershowitz, The Case for Israel (New Jersy: Wiley, 2003) chapter 12 Therefore I think it's best that the fact it's disputed should be noted in the article. I know that some people would accuse these sources of"bias" and being "polemics"; however, Wikipedia is sopossed to have a "neutrality policy". Quite honestly, what makes one Editor the authority to decide that something is not real scholarship? Their are many scholars who would defend them. Finkelstein's accusations of plagiarism is not the final word on the matter. In fact, given Finkelstein's view on the matter, one could accuse him of bias, but again, what makes one Editor the authority to decide that something is biased? Furthermore, Joan Peter's book From Time Immemorial also expresses this view. I will quote the exact source from that book in a few days. That book is defended by Lucy Dawidowicz and Elie Wiesel, among many others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.134.11 ( talk) 05:49, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
As I said before, what gives one editor the right to decide whether or not a work is "polemic" or not? Your own bias is preventing you from allowing the page to be neutral. Peters' work is backed by many historians. Yes, their are many who dispute the accuracy. That is why the page now reflects the two sides. Also, the current source is neutral in itself, as it has no mention of whether it was the Israelis who did the expelling or another party. (being forced to leave by your own leaders does equal "expelling") "On 12 July, the Arab inhabitants of the Lydda- Ramie area, amounting to some 70000, were expelled in what became known as the 'Lydda Death March'." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.134.11 ( talk) 16:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
The argument over sources is unnecessary. Certainly there are sources that point to expulsion of Arabs from those towns. It is sometimes called the Lydda Death March, but that is a misnomer.
As the heading makes clear, a death march is a forced march. People have to not just kick you out, but make you walk. If I tell my daughter to hit the road, that is expulsion. If I push her to Planned Parenthood, that is a death march.
Please don't read too much into my comments politically. I'm removing the Lydda Death March. It, like the Holy Roman Empire, is misnamed. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 21:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
A death march is a forced march of prisoners of war or other captives or deportees. Those marching must walk over long distances for an extremely long period of time and are not supplied with food or water. Prisoners who collapse are left to die or killed by guards.
That is the definition that this article applies to itself. Lydda doesn't qualify as such. The wiki article that describes the event says that it is called a death march by some, but that isn't the prefered nomanclature.
When RS say that at most "dozens" died and that the march consisted of no more than 20 miles, it isn't a death march. The State of Palestine isn't a state, you aren't a neutral editor, and the Lydda expulsion isn't a death march. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 18:41, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
1. Noone was marched "at gun point." They were expelled. It takes two for a forced march, a marcher and a forcer.
2. It was not "long distances for an extremely long period of time." It was 1-3 days.
3. 70,000 didn't participate. A large portion were taken by bus and truck to the Arab Legion lines. When transportation was no longer available, armed Jewish groups threw people out of their homes and that is a war crime. But you don't need to label it something it wasn't.
4. Death marches are defined by people dropping along the way. A dozen people, no matter how sad that is, isn't enough to call the whole incident a death march.
Why don't you stick with trying to insert Jesus into Palestine-related articles, and leave military history to those of us with objective minds. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 20:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
First off, I appreciate your detailed response. I am familiar with the literature on the event and the shortage of RS about it. I think you need to realize the difference between established facts and opinions. Just because there is a shortage of facts doesn't let you place your faith in convenient opinions.
1. Guns were used to frighten people away. Rabin said the soldiers "made them march." This doesn't mean along side them, it means "get the hell out of here <bang, bang>." That's no way for civilized people to act, but clearly isn't a forced march.
2. Look at the real death marches described like the Trail of Tears and Batan and you will get an idea of why the article says "extremely long time." Just because there aren't exact numbers doesn't mean you can make a mountain out of a molehill. The word "extremely" is key. Stop pretending you don't know what it means.
3. I mentioned this to illustrate your ignorance of the event. You thought 70,000 were on a death march, but that is false.
4. Speaking of your ignorance, you said the Oxford source puts the number at 350. That's not true, it doesn't mention a number. The 300+ figure is found only in Arab sources using rumor to create scandal. This is what you are doing. You are Edward Said.
All you have proven is that its been called a death march. That isn't the common name. Even if it was, it'd be a misnomer. You need a RS that shows death and marching, you've proven neither.
Boston Massacre is on a list of things called massacres. This is an article about death marches. Keep your POV off it. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 21:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The Thomas source you quote above calls it a forced expulsion. That's what I've been saying all along.
The inclusion of the Lydda expulsion dillutes the meaning of death march, which is the topic of this article. All I've seen from you is a desire to inject your favorite topic into another article, just like you ejaculated Jesus Christ's name unto the List of Palestinians and Palestinian people.
I wasn't speculating about who passes along the 300+ number. It is only perpetuated in Arab sources, like the rumor that Jews killed Arafat. No signifigant deaths, no forced march, not a death march. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 22:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
You've just brought another source that calls them forced expulsions. Then your book says something like, "let me share two personal annecdotes that will make you think the forced expulsion was a death march." So you've helped back up my earlier statement, that sources sympathetic to the Arab side throw around the word "death march," while neutral RS calls it an expulsion.
For example, you quoted a Pro-Palestinian polemic that said, "Count Bernadotte said of the survivors of the forced expulsion of the 1948 'Lydda Death March'..." This author is showing that in his camp, the event has been called "Lydda Death March," but this isn't the main name. Otherwise, it wouldn't need quotation marks. The event is correctly called a forced expulsion.
"I may re-add [Jesus Christ] one day if I do go looking about for sources" said Tiamut. This is you basically saying you are going to take a source out of context so you can advertise your contentious politics.
You've shown that the incident is mostly refered to as an expulsion. Read your sources. I'm going to remove the material again, because you've proven neither death nor marches. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 15:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
OK, first meeting of the Rim Bananas is called to order. The WP:NPOVN received no comments. I propose that the 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle has been described as a death march, but is generally not concidered such. So it does not belong on a list of events that actually were marches resulting in an overwhelming number of deaths. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 00:51, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Could the new user deleting this info please explain why the sources cited for this should be ignored? Tiamut talk 17:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I've just removed several examples from the list which either a) aren't commonly called a 'death march' and/or which didn't have a high casualty rate and b) for which a reference for the claim that this was a 'death march' wasn't provided. Nick-D ( talk) 00:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
And finally, you're also making things up. The searchable copy of The Oxford companion to military history at Amazon.com or ] Google books contains the exact phrase On 12 July, the Arab inhabitants of the Lydda-Ramle area, amounting to come 70,000, were expelled in what became known as the 'Lydda Death March'. The 2001 edition, which is cited, is the only edition that I can find from Oxford University Press. nableezy - 22:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that this is not a list of death marches. This is an article about death marches. It is easy to tell that Lydda's inclusion has caused contention with Wikipedia editors from this talk page alone. That means little since we go off sources. However, sources even have differing thoughts on the matter. We cannot give enough space and and should not have to use 1000 asterisks or notes to give the reader an understanding of the broader subject. It says enough that enough editors not involved in the I-P topic area have brought it up while only a select group of editors have continuously kept the debate alive. This deserves at least an RfC. I am going to be kind of a jerk and remove it altogether based on the reasoning provided.
Cptnono (
talk) 03:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
List trimmed. Now can an editor (or even an activist who wants to edit) please source the so called lead of this article better and expand on the info to provide a sourced overall summary along with a detailed and sourced piece on the subject that conforms with the MoS. I'll even go create the list and add Lydda (with a note) if someone would rather spend the time bettering the reader's understanding of the subject instead of making a point.
Cptnono (
talk) 04:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The various population transfers of the conflict in the Levant involving competing religious groups shouldn't leak onto this part of Wikipedia. I am removing the talk of Lydda and Ramle until there is more evidense. ProudTeslaDriver ( talk) 09:28, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
The definition in the introduction currently is:
Did this ever really happen? Surely it is not an efficient or effective way of killing, brutalising, weakening, or demoralising captives. Surely what are called "death marches" are in fact forced marches in which a lot of people die. A case in point is the Tiger Death March in the Korean War (mentioned above). This was part of a process in which prisoners were transported from Seoul to Pyongyang, to the Yalu River, and then further inland up the Yalu. The intention was clearly to prevent the prisoners being liberated as the UN forces swept into Korea, driving the Korean People's Army up to the Chinese border or into the mountains. If they had simply wanted to kill them, they would have just massacred them at the start, rather than waste troops and resources. In addition, according to George Blake's account, when the surviving POWs reached their final destination, he was well-treated, being accommodated in a farmhouse and being given reading materials etc. Even when he tried to escape he wasn't ill-treated. So it wasn't a "death march" under this definition. I am not sure of the details of the Japanese-run "death marches", but it seems unlikely they could factually fit this definition.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I never said it wasn't an expulsion of civilians. That's different than a death march though. Death marches are intended/result in significant deaths. There is no evidence this was the case. Again, it doesn't meet the criteria set for similar pages. -- Monochrome_ Monitor 13:38, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
"In January–April 1945 at least 100,000 Polish Silesians were deported to concentration camps, labour camps and nuclear testing facilities (Semipalatinsk Test Site) in territories occupied by the Soviet Union, most in the Ukrainian Donbass region. Until October–November 1945 further death marches were performed."
The sourcing on this is questionable. The number of 100,000 is not sourced - is this original research? The references are to the sites/concentration camps themselves, and not about the way internees reached their destinations. (BTW, one of the sources is a web page of a music band - http://sbb-music.jimdo.com/ - ??)
Also, by looking the listed concentration camps, it appears that some of them were on Polish territory and housed primarily Volksdeutsche. See: Zgoda labour camp, Jaworzno concentration camp. Perhaps they were removed from Silesia by the Polish Communist government (with Soviet approval) as 'undesirable' or 'collaborators'? We have to remember that Polish borders were expanded westward as sort of a 'compensation' for the territories it lost to the Soviet Union in the east. In any case, the situation appears much more complex than the impression one gets from the current paragraph as "Soviets were exterminating Poles via death marches." The sources listed do not support it.
Thoughts? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 22:07, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
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Why is the Greek Death March not included on the death march page? A link from the Greek genocide brought me to the page yet it doesn't list it. Wikipedia has more on Armenian Genocide Earthgodess53 ( talk) 22:47, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I am wondering why it doesn't include the horrible Death Marchers of the Grecian people? My Grandfather was born during this period. I see more about Armenians. Why is this the case Earthgodess53 ( talk) 22:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. Many Stalingrad POWs died in POW camps in the vicinity of Stalingrad, AFAIK, from epidemics and lack of medical care in the spring of 1943. "...forced to march impossible distances to internment camps south of Moscow" is highly dubious. Moscow to Stalingrad is nearly 1000 km. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
"At a prison hospital outside Stalingrad, after inmates had become used to the idea of men being shot or left to die on march, Russian guards inexplicably spared theree prisoners recaptured after a futile attempt to escape. Even when conditions improved in the spring of 1943, the death rate in most prison hospitals was atleast one per cent per day. The problems were still enormous, especially in the Stalingrad region, with pellagra, tuberculosis, dropsy and scurvy added to the other diseases."
@ Pudeo: the content added is not supported by the source:
References
There's nothing here about "After initial captivity near Stalingrad..." or "elsewhere in the Soviet Union": The Second World War: Europe and the Mediterranean.
According to this book, the characterization of the executions in and around Bleiburg as a "death march" is a talking point developed by post-war revisionists to draw a moral equivalence between the Partisans and the fascists they fought against. [2] Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 17:29, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
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Maybe we can find some? I'll try. -- Tom 22:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The Nazis intended to kill all of them? How many completed the "death march"? How many walked - how many took the train? Any stats on any of this - Anne Frank can't be the only one strong enough to have made the trip. 159.105.80.141 19:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Shut up, you Neo-Nazi Scumbag. We should build an Auschwitz just to put you inhuman beasts in. Make you feel the pain of those whose deaths you deny. THEN maybe you will see the truth.But I doubt it. Your just subhuman animals, too dumb too understand anytng but hate and malice.As I said, you're an animal and should be slaughtered like an animal. Then your meat should be sold to starving African Children. I'm sure they'll enjoy a Meal of Homo Malignus Neonazius —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.132.87 ( talk) 03:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I removed a huge chunk or material about Nazi vs Japannese marchs as original research. -- Tom 17:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Could we please add information about the Tiger Death March in Korea? Very famous one, too. 24.214.79.87 ( talk) 19:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The article gives examples of death marches without saying what a death march is. -- Thenickdude ( talk) 11:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The following two sources claim it was not Israel who expelled the Palestinians, but rather their own leaders: Benny Morris, Righteous Victims (New York: Vintage Books, 2001) p.g.256, 211 Alan Dershowitz, The Case for Israel (New Jersy: Wiley, 2003) chapter 12 Therefore I think it's best that the fact it's disputed should be noted in the article. I know that some people would accuse these sources of"bias" and being "polemics"; however, Wikipedia is sopossed to have a "neutrality policy". Quite honestly, what makes one Editor the authority to decide that something is not real scholarship? Their are many scholars who would defend them. Finkelstein's accusations of plagiarism is not the final word on the matter. In fact, given Finkelstein's view on the matter, one could accuse him of bias, but again, what makes one Editor the authority to decide that something is biased? Furthermore, Joan Peter's book From Time Immemorial also expresses this view. I will quote the exact source from that book in a few days. That book is defended by Lucy Dawidowicz and Elie Wiesel, among many others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.134.11 ( talk) 05:49, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
As I said before, what gives one editor the right to decide whether or not a work is "polemic" or not? Your own bias is preventing you from allowing the page to be neutral. Peters' work is backed by many historians. Yes, their are many who dispute the accuracy. That is why the page now reflects the two sides. Also, the current source is neutral in itself, as it has no mention of whether it was the Israelis who did the expelling or another party. (being forced to leave by your own leaders does equal "expelling") "On 12 July, the Arab inhabitants of the Lydda- Ramie area, amounting to some 70000, were expelled in what became known as the 'Lydda Death March'." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.134.11 ( talk) 16:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
The argument over sources is unnecessary. Certainly there are sources that point to expulsion of Arabs from those towns. It is sometimes called the Lydda Death March, but that is a misnomer.
As the heading makes clear, a death march is a forced march. People have to not just kick you out, but make you walk. If I tell my daughter to hit the road, that is expulsion. If I push her to Planned Parenthood, that is a death march.
Please don't read too much into my comments politically. I'm removing the Lydda Death March. It, like the Holy Roman Empire, is misnamed. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 21:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
A death march is a forced march of prisoners of war or other captives or deportees. Those marching must walk over long distances for an extremely long period of time and are not supplied with food or water. Prisoners who collapse are left to die or killed by guards.
That is the definition that this article applies to itself. Lydda doesn't qualify as such. The wiki article that describes the event says that it is called a death march by some, but that isn't the prefered nomanclature.
When RS say that at most "dozens" died and that the march consisted of no more than 20 miles, it isn't a death march. The State of Palestine isn't a state, you aren't a neutral editor, and the Lydda expulsion isn't a death march. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 18:41, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
1. Noone was marched "at gun point." They were expelled. It takes two for a forced march, a marcher and a forcer.
2. It was not "long distances for an extremely long period of time." It was 1-3 days.
3. 70,000 didn't participate. A large portion were taken by bus and truck to the Arab Legion lines. When transportation was no longer available, armed Jewish groups threw people out of their homes and that is a war crime. But you don't need to label it something it wasn't.
4. Death marches are defined by people dropping along the way. A dozen people, no matter how sad that is, isn't enough to call the whole incident a death march.
Why don't you stick with trying to insert Jesus into Palestine-related articles, and leave military history to those of us with objective minds. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 20:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
First off, I appreciate your detailed response. I am familiar with the literature on the event and the shortage of RS about it. I think you need to realize the difference between established facts and opinions. Just because there is a shortage of facts doesn't let you place your faith in convenient opinions.
1. Guns were used to frighten people away. Rabin said the soldiers "made them march." This doesn't mean along side them, it means "get the hell out of here <bang, bang>." That's no way for civilized people to act, but clearly isn't a forced march.
2. Look at the real death marches described like the Trail of Tears and Batan and you will get an idea of why the article says "extremely long time." Just because there aren't exact numbers doesn't mean you can make a mountain out of a molehill. The word "extremely" is key. Stop pretending you don't know what it means.
3. I mentioned this to illustrate your ignorance of the event. You thought 70,000 were on a death march, but that is false.
4. Speaking of your ignorance, you said the Oxford source puts the number at 350. That's not true, it doesn't mention a number. The 300+ figure is found only in Arab sources using rumor to create scandal. This is what you are doing. You are Edward Said.
All you have proven is that its been called a death march. That isn't the common name. Even if it was, it'd be a misnomer. You need a RS that shows death and marching, you've proven neither.
Boston Massacre is on a list of things called massacres. This is an article about death marches. Keep your POV off it. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 21:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The Thomas source you quote above calls it a forced expulsion. That's what I've been saying all along.
The inclusion of the Lydda expulsion dillutes the meaning of death march, which is the topic of this article. All I've seen from you is a desire to inject your favorite topic into another article, just like you ejaculated Jesus Christ's name unto the List of Palestinians and Palestinian people.
I wasn't speculating about who passes along the 300+ number. It is only perpetuated in Arab sources, like the rumor that Jews killed Arafat. No signifigant deaths, no forced march, not a death march. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 22:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
You've just brought another source that calls them forced expulsions. Then your book says something like, "let me share two personal annecdotes that will make you think the forced expulsion was a death march." So you've helped back up my earlier statement, that sources sympathetic to the Arab side throw around the word "death march," while neutral RS calls it an expulsion.
For example, you quoted a Pro-Palestinian polemic that said, "Count Bernadotte said of the survivors of the forced expulsion of the 1948 'Lydda Death March'..." This author is showing that in his camp, the event has been called "Lydda Death March," but this isn't the main name. Otherwise, it wouldn't need quotation marks. The event is correctly called a forced expulsion.
"I may re-add [Jesus Christ] one day if I do go looking about for sources" said Tiamut. This is you basically saying you are going to take a source out of context so you can advertise your contentious politics.
You've shown that the incident is mostly refered to as an expulsion. Read your sources. I'm going to remove the material again, because you've proven neither death nor marches. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 15:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
OK, first meeting of the Rim Bananas is called to order. The WP:NPOVN received no comments. I propose that the 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle has been described as a death march, but is generally not concidered such. So it does not belong on a list of events that actually were marches resulting in an overwhelming number of deaths. Luke 19 Verse 27 ( talk) 00:51, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Could the new user deleting this info please explain why the sources cited for this should be ignored? Tiamut talk 17:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I've just removed several examples from the list which either a) aren't commonly called a 'death march' and/or which didn't have a high casualty rate and b) for which a reference for the claim that this was a 'death march' wasn't provided. Nick-D ( talk) 00:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
And finally, you're also making things up. The searchable copy of The Oxford companion to military history at Amazon.com or ] Google books contains the exact phrase On 12 July, the Arab inhabitants of the Lydda-Ramle area, amounting to come 70,000, were expelled in what became known as the 'Lydda Death March'. The 2001 edition, which is cited, is the only edition that I can find from Oxford University Press. nableezy - 22:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that this is not a list of death marches. This is an article about death marches. It is easy to tell that Lydda's inclusion has caused contention with Wikipedia editors from this talk page alone. That means little since we go off sources. However, sources even have differing thoughts on the matter. We cannot give enough space and and should not have to use 1000 asterisks or notes to give the reader an understanding of the broader subject. It says enough that enough editors not involved in the I-P topic area have brought it up while only a select group of editors have continuously kept the debate alive. This deserves at least an RfC. I am going to be kind of a jerk and remove it altogether based on the reasoning provided.
Cptnono (
talk) 03:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
List trimmed. Now can an editor (or even an activist who wants to edit) please source the so called lead of this article better and expand on the info to provide a sourced overall summary along with a detailed and sourced piece on the subject that conforms with the MoS. I'll even go create the list and add Lydda (with a note) if someone would rather spend the time bettering the reader's understanding of the subject instead of making a point.
Cptnono (
talk) 04:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The various population transfers of the conflict in the Levant involving competing religious groups shouldn't leak onto this part of Wikipedia. I am removing the talk of Lydda and Ramle until there is more evidense. ProudTeslaDriver ( talk) 09:28, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
The definition in the introduction currently is:
Did this ever really happen? Surely it is not an efficient or effective way of killing, brutalising, weakening, or demoralising captives. Surely what are called "death marches" are in fact forced marches in which a lot of people die. A case in point is the Tiger Death March in the Korean War (mentioned above). This was part of a process in which prisoners were transported from Seoul to Pyongyang, to the Yalu River, and then further inland up the Yalu. The intention was clearly to prevent the prisoners being liberated as the UN forces swept into Korea, driving the Korean People's Army up to the Chinese border or into the mountains. If they had simply wanted to kill them, they would have just massacred them at the start, rather than waste troops and resources. In addition, according to George Blake's account, when the surviving POWs reached their final destination, he was well-treated, being accommodated in a farmhouse and being given reading materials etc. Even when he tried to escape he wasn't ill-treated. So it wasn't a "death march" under this definition. I am not sure of the details of the Japanese-run "death marches", but it seems unlikely they could factually fit this definition.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I never said it wasn't an expulsion of civilians. That's different than a death march though. Death marches are intended/result in significant deaths. There is no evidence this was the case. Again, it doesn't meet the criteria set for similar pages. -- Monochrome_ Monitor 13:38, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
"In January–April 1945 at least 100,000 Polish Silesians were deported to concentration camps, labour camps and nuclear testing facilities (Semipalatinsk Test Site) in territories occupied by the Soviet Union, most in the Ukrainian Donbass region. Until October–November 1945 further death marches were performed."
The sourcing on this is questionable. The number of 100,000 is not sourced - is this original research? The references are to the sites/concentration camps themselves, and not about the way internees reached their destinations. (BTW, one of the sources is a web page of a music band - http://sbb-music.jimdo.com/ - ??)
Also, by looking the listed concentration camps, it appears that some of them were on Polish territory and housed primarily Volksdeutsche. See: Zgoda labour camp, Jaworzno concentration camp. Perhaps they were removed from Silesia by the Polish Communist government (with Soviet approval) as 'undesirable' or 'collaborators'? We have to remember that Polish borders were expanded westward as sort of a 'compensation' for the territories it lost to the Soviet Union in the east. In any case, the situation appears much more complex than the impression one gets from the current paragraph as "Soviets were exterminating Poles via death marches." The sources listed do not support it.
Thoughts? -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 22:07, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
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Why is the Greek Death March not included on the death march page? A link from the Greek genocide brought me to the page yet it doesn't list it. Wikipedia has more on Armenian Genocide Earthgodess53 ( talk) 22:47, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I am wondering why it doesn't include the horrible Death Marchers of the Grecian people? My Grandfather was born during this period. I see more about Armenians. Why is this the case Earthgodess53 ( talk) 22:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. Many Stalingrad POWs died in POW camps in the vicinity of Stalingrad, AFAIK, from epidemics and lack of medical care in the spring of 1943. "...forced to march impossible distances to internment camps south of Moscow" is highly dubious. Moscow to Stalingrad is nearly 1000 km. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
"At a prison hospital outside Stalingrad, after inmates had become used to the idea of men being shot or left to die on march, Russian guards inexplicably spared theree prisoners recaptured after a futile attempt to escape. Even when conditions improved in the spring of 1943, the death rate in most prison hospitals was atleast one per cent per day. The problems were still enormous, especially in the Stalingrad region, with pellagra, tuberculosis, dropsy and scurvy added to the other diseases."
@ Pudeo: the content added is not supported by the source:
References
There's nothing here about "After initial captivity near Stalingrad..." or "elsewhere in the Soviet Union": The Second World War: Europe and the Mediterranean.
According to this book, the characterization of the executions in and around Bleiburg as a "death march" is a talking point developed by post-war revisionists to draw a moral equivalence between the Partisans and the fascists they fought against. [2] Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 17:29, 2 April 2023 (UTC)