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This article should be unprotected ASAP. The latest edit is not neutral. Since when do articles have to be anti-prosecution? Furthermore, the user who wants the edit in has a long history of inserting original research, spinning, lying, and a huge bias against Westerfield's conviction. This user has frequently blamed the victim, the victim's family, media, and community for Westerfield's conviction. To them it is EVERYONE'S fault except David Westerfield. He is right and everyone else is wrong. For them, he is the victim and thus their edit should not be allowed to stand. This user has NEVER made an edit in favor of the prosecution, although he "claims" to care about neutrality and balance. I believe the man is guilty as sin but I have still inserted information favoring his defense. I have contributed lots to wikipedia, while this user's only concern is David Westerfield. I believe he did not come to wikipedia with good faith on his mind. Fighting for Justice 22:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
According to WP:NPOV All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source. This basically proves, 196.15.168.40 is wrong on two crucial arguments. First the latest edit in the article is not NPOV. THe line: "the prosecution could not" is not representing the case fairly. It shows a bias for his defense. That's basically my biggest problem with the edit. THe edit that Girdag proposed did not contain that line. That is what I was referring to as a good idea. 196.15.168.40 as usual spins and omits this point. He spins his argument to say that Girdag also wanted "the prosecution could not" line. This is completely deceitful but something I've grown accustomed to in dealing with him. THe second thing he is wrong about is regarding the inclusion of Westerfield's defense. Neutral does not mean we have to give the defense equal weight to the prosecution. What the article must include is viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source. In no way does the npov policy say articles about criminal defendants must contain ALL the main arguments of his defense. 196.15.168.40 can dislike it all he wants but the prosecution prevailed. That's what needs to carry more weight. Wikipedia does not have to give equal weight to the losing side. If he doesn't believe me he can read about it here. This is why I've clashed with him. He dislikes the verdict, so he makes his edits to undermine the verdict and the prosecution. I strongly believe he should be banned from editing this article. Fighting for Justice 07:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The statement "The prosecution could not present any evidence that directly linked Westerfield to Danielle" is TRUE. If you dispute that, then please present the evidence. The fact that it is advantageous to the defense does not mean that it's biased. Your objection is purely because it reveals to readers how weak the prosecution case was. While Girdag's proposal may not have contained those words, neither did he explicitly exclude them - as he explicitly excluded another passage (the police no child porn report). He approved my source (so I don't know why you put "published by a reliable source" in bold), and this is from that source. You previously objected to these words, claiming that they were mine - which they are not - which casts doubt on the sincerity of your next claim, that it's not neutral. You also claimed my quote was from the closing argument, which it's not, and that the information wasn't verified, yet it is. Furthermore, if it really was just these words that you strongly objected to, then you would have removed just them, whereas you removed my entire edit, including what Girdag explicitly included. Girdag's proposal left out the phrase "including sound of the girl struggling", but you didn't remove that from the article. (He also changed "girl being raped by one man while another man restrained her" to "rape of an underage girl by two men", which is not what that source says.) I think you are just using any and every argument you can think of to suppress an uncomfortable truth. Furthermore, even if Girdag had explicitly excluded these words, the fact that you have subsequently added more pro-prosecution arguments, thereby further unbalancing the article, would be sufficient justification for including more pro-defense arguments.
I have explicitly said (not for the first time) I was NOT asking for equal weight for the defense. I would point out that it's NOT an opinion or point of view that I am advancing, but FACTS, and I'm allowing the reader to draw their own conclusion. Making a short statement followed by a couple of examples, as in the case of the lack of evidence in the van Dam house, can hardly be described as "undue weight". It's not a question of my DISLIKING the verdict, it's a question of the EVIDENCE pointing to the verdict being WRONG. What is significant is that it's so EASY to undermine the verdict and the prosecution. An angry community, law enforcement rushing to judgement and not doing their job properly, minimal evidence, innocent explanation for all of it, strong evidence of innocence. I can see why someone who is so emotionally involved would want to suppress the truth. 196.15.168.40 17:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that 2-line edit IS really that important to me. So, if you are saying you will now accept it, as is, then Thank You, and we can move onto the next point of potential disagreement. In the Pornography section, I want to change “underage” to “apparently underage” (that’s in two places), because the ages weren’t established. Are you agreeable? 196.15.168.40 03:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
How was it established? Would you accept “allegedly underage”? The article on OJ Simpson doesn’t state he was, or was not, guilty of the murders, it merely reports the juries’ verdicts. Surely that is the correct way to do it, seeing that juries are known to make mistakes. 196.15.168.40 04:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
FFJ, it appears to me that you are the one with a tremendous emotional involvement in this case, and I simply don't see that in the logical explanations from 196.15.168.40. It find it hard to look past the rhetoric and innuendo you put out to try and derive what your point is, while 196.15.168.40's points are usually very clear. It would make it easier to discuss what should be included in the article by virtue of what was presented in court or another acceptable source, if you didn't keep alluding to poster's motives. Snidley W 08:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
FfJ: “allege” and “apparently” are both used dozens of times in the Court TV and Union-Tribune articles, which are overwhelmingly the main sources for the Wikipedia article, so it would not be surprising if they also appeared in the latter. I’d have thought “allege” was an appropriate word in a legal context. Neal had looked through the loose computer media, which is where most of the “questionable” images were (and even admitted downloading some of the contents onto his own computer), and he worked on the office computers, yet he testified that he HADN’T seen any child porn: further evidence there WASN’T any. In addition, some of the “questionable” images shown to the jury were from HIS computer - yet more evidence that the prosecution were FALSELY claiming that ADULT porn was child porn. MOST media reports did NOT describe them as prepubescent: “They [police investigators] cannot determine whether girls in the photos are under 18” “They [detectives] are unsure whether women in the photos are under 18” (Union-Tribune, February 23 and 24). You may place your trust in contradictory media reports, but I can’t, and neither should Wikipedia. But the bottom line is that you CAN’T prove the girls were underage. Yet the present wording of the Wikipedia article states, as if it were a proven fact, that ALL the images shown to the jury were of underage girls. We don’t even know which ones (or how many) the jury THOUGHT were underage. I’m pleased you seem to be drawing a distinction between “nude” and “sexual pose”: nude is not necessarily sexual. I believe that was another of the prosecution’s deceptions. You don’t explain why you don’t care for my OJ Simpson comparison. My argument was that jury verdicts are merely the opinion of fallible human beings, and should be treated as such, not as absolute, factual truth. I don’t see how you conclude from that that the pornography section should be left as is. 196.15.168.40 04:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Unless I'm missing something, this cited reference seems to be pretty clear about the fact that Westerfield admitted being in possession of the child porn. I don't know how much clearer it could get than for him to admit that he had child porn: "Asked about the child pornography in his house, he told one friend, former business associate Carmen Genovese, that he was simply collecting the images so he could send them to Congress as examples of smut on the Internet." -- ElKevbo 05:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to do more to explain what it is about this murder case that makes it significant or notable. It does pass Wikipedia's notability guideline, by having been the subject of a considerable amount of news coverage, so I'm not saying it should be nominated for deletion; but the article should make clear why this case was of particular interest to the media, and not 'just another murder'. Robofish ( talk) 20:36, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
what happened to the Selby Confession part? Fighting for Justice ( talk) 04:59, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the article, as it is poorly written and uncited. "It was recently revealed in an animal forensic show from US TV network, Animal Planet, that the girl's dog played a huge witness to the crime. The dog, a weimaraner, was said to have rubbed and played a lot with the young girl and the fur was transferred from her pajamas to the interior of Mr. Westerfield's automobile. Also, clothing and other areas of location including above said bed sheets and comforters contained dog fur. Hinted in the show too, was the evidence of blood and a hand print matching that of Danielle were located within Mr. Westerfield's automobile." The lack of citation is bad enough, but what is a "huge witness"? There is also no citation to the information on animal hair transfer or mention of it in the article on the trial. "Hinted in the show too" is lousy prose, is also non-encyclopedic and uncited. If anyone can provide citations and improved prose on the involvement of the dog, feel free to replace the removed section. Wzrd1 ( talk) 13:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Done. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 19:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
“At the trial, Brenda said she could not remember if she danced with him or not.[citation needed].”
I couldn’t find any source supporting that statement, so I quoted the closest I found. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 07:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
There is a media report that he looked haggard (Alex Roth, San Diego Union-Tribune, June 18, 2002), but this doesn’t accurately reflect the dry cleaners clerk’s testimony, so I have corrected that with the appropriate citation. Also, the wording “Upon returning home” implies that he first arrived home and then went to the dry cleaners, which is not correct, so I have changed that as well. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Why is Westerfield included in this category? He wasn’t convicted of rape. It is generally believed that Danielle was kidnapped for sexual purposes, and that Westerfield is a pedophile, but there’s no evidence she was sexually assaulted (see Category_talk:American_rapists), and the evidence he’s a pedophile is weak: just 1% of his porn may have been child porn (those images were merely described by the prosecution expert as “questionable”), they had seldom been viewed (from one to five times), and they were mostly old (1999). Perhaps because of this, other theories have been proposed. The prosecution suggested he wanted revenge because Brenda and her friends had ignored him at the bar that night. Even if sex was the motive, Brenda thought he may instead have been after her (an adult) or their babysitter (a teenage boy). TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 05:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
As nobody objected, I have now removed this category. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 20:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Should this page (or the other) be modified for consistency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography#Controversy
comp.arch ( talk) 00:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
My concern is that there are conflicting media reports on this case. I’ve been thinking of including a short section on this, giving some examples, which can include the specific one you have raised. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I have added a sentence to the Pornography section of the Westerfield article, and have begun a section on “Conflicting reports” with further evidence, to correct the inconsistency you pointed out. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 09:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I will be updating and wikifying this article, which needs a lot of work - it's been on my to-do list for quite a while. But first I am going to propose a move from "David Westerfield" to "Murder of Danielle van Dam" per usual Wikipedia standard for such articles. If the move request is successful I will recast the article to be about the crime rather than the perpetrator. Are there others who want to help with improving the article? Please do - but let's wait until the move decision since that will necessitate a major change of emphasis and organization. -- MelanieN ( talk) 15:06, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move to Murder of Danielle van Dam. Despite the verbose response, there is no response to how this article does not meet WP:BLP1E. kelapstick( bainuu) 20:19, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
David Westerfield →
Murder of Danielle van Dam – It is the usual Wikipedia practice to name the article after the crime rather than the perpetrator. --Relisted.
Armbrust
The Homunculus 08:23, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
MelanieN (
talk)
15:09, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the article needs improvement, and I have made some changes to achieve this over the past couple of years.
Van Dam or van Dam? Some sources give one, some the other. I don’t know which is correct, and I haven’t tried to determine which is the more common in media reports. So, although I personally prefer the lower case, I didn’t try to change the article.
Thought or alleged? (did not lock their door) There was no sign of a break-in, and testimony was that the door was found open, so it is logical to infer that this is how the perpetrator entered. However, there were two explanations why it was opened: one was to air out marijuana smoke, the other was to answer a phone call. But either way, the current wording could be improved: it wasn’t permanently left unlocked, they just failed to lock it after airing the smoke and answering the call.
van Dam’s body or Danielle’s body? I personally prefer to use the first name in the case of a child, but I think I saw a case in which the first name was changed to the last name, which made me think that was the Wikipedia standard. This article still has an instance (in the Selby section) of the last name being used. I did some searching, and discovered that several other similar articles are also inconsistent: Samantha Runnion, Elizabeth Smart, and JonBenet Ramsey.
Girlfriends or women friends? A quick scan revealed that the former term was used in media reports at the time, and it was interesting to see that even Nancy Grace used it. I’ve also had a quick look at Wikipedia, and it is used there too (and is seemingly mostly acceptable, though “lady friend” and “companion” are also suggested). TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:54, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I've been trying to restore balance to this article, which seems to contain far more arguments and evidence from the defense compared to the prosecution arguments and evidence which convinced a jury. In particular the "trial" section contains NOTHING about the prosecution's evidence, but two paragraphs about the defense arguments. It will take me a day or two before I can get to that section to add the prosecution evidence; if someone else wants to do it first, be my guest. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:31, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm doing some work on this article, and as I proceed I'll place my notes here for what I'm doing and why.
I did some research, and the book Rush to Judgement is a self-published work. Although it bears directly on the Westerfield case, there is no evidence that "C Stevenson," the author, is an expert on the Westerfield case, or on forensics in general. There is no evidence that he has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, or that his work was subject to any kind of editorial oversight. Although self-publishing does not automatically invalidate a source, such sources are generally disallowed with a few exceptions, and Rush to Judgement does not meet any of them. Accordingly, I've removed all references to that book from the article. In all cases except (I think) one, the claim for which the self-published book was the source was already sourced by other articles, mostly mainstream media websites. Chichiri47 ( talk) 20:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The Conclusion heading seemed jarring, and not in line with similar articles. All the information in that section was preserved, with citations added in a couple of cases, and moved to other sections. The "Arrest" and "Trial" sections have been merged, and "Legacy" has been renamed "Aftermath and Legacy" to include the miscellaneous post-trial information from the "Conclusion" section. Chichiri47 ( talk) 22:52, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I’ve also done some research. You can see from their website that the publishers provide comprehensive publishing services. And you can see from the Amazon website that the book is comprehensive and very detailed, with 50 of the 794 pages being references; it was praised by a respected journalist as a well-researched tome; and no evidence has been presented of errors in it. The fact that, “In all cases except (I think) one”, the book is supported by “other articles, mostly mainstream media websites”, is additional proof that it is a reliable source.
There have been many changes to the article, so it will take a long time to study them. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Stevenson, C. http://www.amazon.com/dp/1460956974, “Rush to Judgement”, CreateSpace, June 22, 2011, pages 29-32, 223 and 486. Heading out to do research, will be back. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:34, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
The sentence about Westerfield being in the Handicrafts program at San Quentin was added by "Rogdriggjr" in May of 2008, in his only-ever contribution to Wikipedia. He did not source it, and I have been unable to find a single source on it. I am deleting the sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chichiri47 ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the Conflicting Reports section as discussed below. I have also removed the Pornography subsection, as this is only marginally related at best to the murder of Danielle. I'd like to leave the Entomology section in place, since I think it's noteworthy given the focus on it during the trial, but it does need an overhaul. Ditto the Selby Confession section. Those are probably next on my list. Chichiri47 ( talk) 19:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I have greatly streamlined the Selby Confession section, and will probably move it out of its own section and under "Aftermath." I am trying to find copies of Westerfield's various appeals from 2004 onward, to see if the Selby letter is cited as a reason to overturn the conviction or grant a new trial, but so far I have been unable to find anything. Does anyone know if the defense cited the Selby letter in an appeal or post-trial motion? Chichiri47 ( talk) 20:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I have greatly trimmed and relocated the Entomology section to the Trial section. I have also relocated the Selby Confession section as discussed, and did some cleanup on the Westerfield section. Don't want to jinx it, but I think I'm close to done here. :-) Chichiri47 ( talk) 01:34, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Entomology dates
The article now states that “The prosecution's entomologist testified that Danielle's body could have been colonized as early as February 2”. There are sources which state that, but the cited source does not. This source is part of the trial transcript, and so is a primary source, which Wikipedia discourages. And this is an example why: they can be more difficult to understand. On page 8968, Goff states that “post feeding numbers are not reached at the Singing Hills site prior to 2 February ” - which appears to mean the 2nd or later - while on page 8973 when asked if he gave a February 2 date, he said “prior to” - so before the 2nd. A contradiction? No. In the first case, he was talking about the method used to calculate the dates, which is backwards from the time the body is found. So February 27, 26, 25, and so on, accumulating the thermal energy for each day. And when he reached the 2nd, the cumulative total still wasn’t enough to arrive at the stage of development the larvae were at. So the body must have been dumped before then. Which agrees with page 8973. But this is impossible. Because she was still alive on the 1st. Does this mean forensic entomology is worthless? No. There are various problems with Goff’s calculations, especially those using Singing Hills temperatures. For a start, that’s a golf course, and their weather station had been damaged, hit by a golf ball, so their recorded temperatures might be wrong. So Goff rightly discarded those calculations. But some reporters obviously didn’t understand this, and neither did a Wikipedia editor. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 05:17, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't believe that the "Conflicting Reports" section is noteworthy enough for inclusion. Whenever you have voluminous media reporting of a particular event, you will have minor flaws and inconsistencies in these reports; these might be noteworthy in a general discussion about inconsistent media reporting in general, but they do not seem to shed light or doubt on the basic facts of the event of Danielle's murder and Westerfield's trial. There is no suggestion, for instance, that the police investigatory process or the jury was improperly influenced by this or that article overstating the evidence.
I don't know of any proposal process for deleting individual sections of an article, so I'll informally propose this section's deletion here. Chichiri47 ( talk) 19:01, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
So you agree that media reports are unreliable but use them anyway, while rejecting use of a book the accuracy of which you have failed to fault. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 18:44, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
“Whenever you have voluminous media reporting of a particular event, you will have minor flaws” Chichiri47.
Minor? Let’s take just the first example in the now-deleted section.
Sexual images of an 18-year-old are legal.
Sexual images of a teen under 18 are illegal, but at most weak evidence of motive for sexual crimes against a 7-year-old.
Sexual images of a 7-year-old are both illegal and strong evidence of motive for such crimes.
Minor? The difference is huge and fundamental. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 12:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Selby was a proven and convicted serial sexual predator. With his history, his confession to killing Danielle could easily be true (assuming she was kidnapped for sexual purposes). Yet all that information has been removed from the article. So that anyone reading it now would wonder how anybody could believe that confession. All the article contains is that he was suspected of sex crimes, and was convicted of something: a traffic violation, perhaps? The expurgated article even casts doubt (without citing a source) on whether it was even him who confessed. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 06:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
You haven’t addressed the fundamental question of why the article was reworded to conceal the fact that Selby was guilty of all those crimes (and yes I was going to mention the attempted murder, so thanks for raising it). Sex was the basis of the case against Westerfield, as can be inferred from the article, yet the article gives no evidence that Danielle was sexually assaulted. By the way, what other high-profile crimes did Selby confess to? TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 15:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
The article quoted two statements made by the defense attorney, both of which are correct. Witness Judy Ray testified that at least 600,000 of one of Westerfield’s devices were sold. So if one were to fault the statement MelanieN has removed, then it would be on the grounds that the attorney understated the facts: Westerfield’s patents improved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 06:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
The bit added yesterday by TheTruth2009 appears in the middle of the section about the trial. However, there is no record of the prosecutor making such an admission during the trial. The closest thing I could find to such an admission was the statement, "Only one person knows where she was killed and when she was killed and it is not the police department," and that was made in a post-trial hearing.
If the sense of the community is that this addition is noteworthy enough for inclusion, then I propose moving the sentence to its correct chronological section and placing it in proper context (Judge at the same hearing: "All of the uncontested physical evidence establishes that this little girl was alive in the motor home"). If the sense is that it is not noteworthy -- and let's face it, murders in which the precise time and location of death are unremarkable, and the prosecution of such cases wholly routine -- then I propose deletion. Chichiri47 ( talk) 00:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
You (MelanieN) have removed the warning message that their entomologist doesn’t say February 2. Have you seen my explanation above? If you have, then please explain why you disagree. The Court TV article cited in the paragraph correctly gives his dates as February 9-14. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 18:26, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
I find a paragraph detailing the results of his conviction that claims:
"The trial lasted sixty-nine months and concluded on August 8. On August 21, the jury found Westerfield guilty of illegal dumping in the first degree, first degree murder, kidnapping, and possession of child pornography. Westerfield was fined 500 dollars for murder of Danielle, sentenced to death for the first degree illegal dumping."
I think this "first degree dumping" is highly questionable; although that is an actual charge in some states, I can't find a single reference to it being applied the the Westerfield case, or murder cases in general. Being "fined $500 for murder" and "death for illegal dumping" is just ridiculous. I'm going to remove the "illegal dumping" references and change it to only say death for the murder charge. It's obviously wrong the way it is, and I don't know enough about this to do things like flag for vandalism. At least this way I can draw attention to it; if someone else wants to fix it better, be my guest. .45Colt 19:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
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This article should be unprotected ASAP. The latest edit is not neutral. Since when do articles have to be anti-prosecution? Furthermore, the user who wants the edit in has a long history of inserting original research, spinning, lying, and a huge bias against Westerfield's conviction. This user has frequently blamed the victim, the victim's family, media, and community for Westerfield's conviction. To them it is EVERYONE'S fault except David Westerfield. He is right and everyone else is wrong. For them, he is the victim and thus their edit should not be allowed to stand. This user has NEVER made an edit in favor of the prosecution, although he "claims" to care about neutrality and balance. I believe the man is guilty as sin but I have still inserted information favoring his defense. I have contributed lots to wikipedia, while this user's only concern is David Westerfield. I believe he did not come to wikipedia with good faith on his mind. Fighting for Justice 22:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
According to WP:NPOV All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source. This basically proves, 196.15.168.40 is wrong on two crucial arguments. First the latest edit in the article is not NPOV. THe line: "the prosecution could not" is not representing the case fairly. It shows a bias for his defense. That's basically my biggest problem with the edit. THe edit that Girdag proposed did not contain that line. That is what I was referring to as a good idea. 196.15.168.40 as usual spins and omits this point. He spins his argument to say that Girdag also wanted "the prosecution could not" line. This is completely deceitful but something I've grown accustomed to in dealing with him. THe second thing he is wrong about is regarding the inclusion of Westerfield's defense. Neutral does not mean we have to give the defense equal weight to the prosecution. What the article must include is viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source. In no way does the npov policy say articles about criminal defendants must contain ALL the main arguments of his defense. 196.15.168.40 can dislike it all he wants but the prosecution prevailed. That's what needs to carry more weight. Wikipedia does not have to give equal weight to the losing side. If he doesn't believe me he can read about it here. This is why I've clashed with him. He dislikes the verdict, so he makes his edits to undermine the verdict and the prosecution. I strongly believe he should be banned from editing this article. Fighting for Justice 07:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The statement "The prosecution could not present any evidence that directly linked Westerfield to Danielle" is TRUE. If you dispute that, then please present the evidence. The fact that it is advantageous to the defense does not mean that it's biased. Your objection is purely because it reveals to readers how weak the prosecution case was. While Girdag's proposal may not have contained those words, neither did he explicitly exclude them - as he explicitly excluded another passage (the police no child porn report). He approved my source (so I don't know why you put "published by a reliable source" in bold), and this is from that source. You previously objected to these words, claiming that they were mine - which they are not - which casts doubt on the sincerity of your next claim, that it's not neutral. You also claimed my quote was from the closing argument, which it's not, and that the information wasn't verified, yet it is. Furthermore, if it really was just these words that you strongly objected to, then you would have removed just them, whereas you removed my entire edit, including what Girdag explicitly included. Girdag's proposal left out the phrase "including sound of the girl struggling", but you didn't remove that from the article. (He also changed "girl being raped by one man while another man restrained her" to "rape of an underage girl by two men", which is not what that source says.) I think you are just using any and every argument you can think of to suppress an uncomfortable truth. Furthermore, even if Girdag had explicitly excluded these words, the fact that you have subsequently added more pro-prosecution arguments, thereby further unbalancing the article, would be sufficient justification for including more pro-defense arguments.
I have explicitly said (not for the first time) I was NOT asking for equal weight for the defense. I would point out that it's NOT an opinion or point of view that I am advancing, but FACTS, and I'm allowing the reader to draw their own conclusion. Making a short statement followed by a couple of examples, as in the case of the lack of evidence in the van Dam house, can hardly be described as "undue weight". It's not a question of my DISLIKING the verdict, it's a question of the EVIDENCE pointing to the verdict being WRONG. What is significant is that it's so EASY to undermine the verdict and the prosecution. An angry community, law enforcement rushing to judgement and not doing their job properly, minimal evidence, innocent explanation for all of it, strong evidence of innocence. I can see why someone who is so emotionally involved would want to suppress the truth. 196.15.168.40 17:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that 2-line edit IS really that important to me. So, if you are saying you will now accept it, as is, then Thank You, and we can move onto the next point of potential disagreement. In the Pornography section, I want to change “underage” to “apparently underage” (that’s in two places), because the ages weren’t established. Are you agreeable? 196.15.168.40 03:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
How was it established? Would you accept “allegedly underage”? The article on OJ Simpson doesn’t state he was, or was not, guilty of the murders, it merely reports the juries’ verdicts. Surely that is the correct way to do it, seeing that juries are known to make mistakes. 196.15.168.40 04:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
FFJ, it appears to me that you are the one with a tremendous emotional involvement in this case, and I simply don't see that in the logical explanations from 196.15.168.40. It find it hard to look past the rhetoric and innuendo you put out to try and derive what your point is, while 196.15.168.40's points are usually very clear. It would make it easier to discuss what should be included in the article by virtue of what was presented in court or another acceptable source, if you didn't keep alluding to poster's motives. Snidley W 08:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
FfJ: “allege” and “apparently” are both used dozens of times in the Court TV and Union-Tribune articles, which are overwhelmingly the main sources for the Wikipedia article, so it would not be surprising if they also appeared in the latter. I’d have thought “allege” was an appropriate word in a legal context. Neal had looked through the loose computer media, which is where most of the “questionable” images were (and even admitted downloading some of the contents onto his own computer), and he worked on the office computers, yet he testified that he HADN’T seen any child porn: further evidence there WASN’T any. In addition, some of the “questionable” images shown to the jury were from HIS computer - yet more evidence that the prosecution were FALSELY claiming that ADULT porn was child porn. MOST media reports did NOT describe them as prepubescent: “They [police investigators] cannot determine whether girls in the photos are under 18” “They [detectives] are unsure whether women in the photos are under 18” (Union-Tribune, February 23 and 24). You may place your trust in contradictory media reports, but I can’t, and neither should Wikipedia. But the bottom line is that you CAN’T prove the girls were underage. Yet the present wording of the Wikipedia article states, as if it were a proven fact, that ALL the images shown to the jury were of underage girls. We don’t even know which ones (or how many) the jury THOUGHT were underage. I’m pleased you seem to be drawing a distinction between “nude” and “sexual pose”: nude is not necessarily sexual. I believe that was another of the prosecution’s deceptions. You don’t explain why you don’t care for my OJ Simpson comparison. My argument was that jury verdicts are merely the opinion of fallible human beings, and should be treated as such, not as absolute, factual truth. I don’t see how you conclude from that that the pornography section should be left as is. 196.15.168.40 04:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Unless I'm missing something, this cited reference seems to be pretty clear about the fact that Westerfield admitted being in possession of the child porn. I don't know how much clearer it could get than for him to admit that he had child porn: "Asked about the child pornography in his house, he told one friend, former business associate Carmen Genovese, that he was simply collecting the images so he could send them to Congress as examples of smut on the Internet." -- ElKevbo 05:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to do more to explain what it is about this murder case that makes it significant or notable. It does pass Wikipedia's notability guideline, by having been the subject of a considerable amount of news coverage, so I'm not saying it should be nominated for deletion; but the article should make clear why this case was of particular interest to the media, and not 'just another murder'. Robofish ( talk) 20:36, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
what happened to the Selby Confession part? Fighting for Justice ( talk) 04:59, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the article, as it is poorly written and uncited. "It was recently revealed in an animal forensic show from US TV network, Animal Planet, that the girl's dog played a huge witness to the crime. The dog, a weimaraner, was said to have rubbed and played a lot with the young girl and the fur was transferred from her pajamas to the interior of Mr. Westerfield's automobile. Also, clothing and other areas of location including above said bed sheets and comforters contained dog fur. Hinted in the show too, was the evidence of blood and a hand print matching that of Danielle were located within Mr. Westerfield's automobile." The lack of citation is bad enough, but what is a "huge witness"? There is also no citation to the information on animal hair transfer or mention of it in the article on the trial. "Hinted in the show too" is lousy prose, is also non-encyclopedic and uncited. If anyone can provide citations and improved prose on the involvement of the dog, feel free to replace the removed section. Wzrd1 ( talk) 13:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Done. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 19:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
“At the trial, Brenda said she could not remember if she danced with him or not.[citation needed].”
I couldn’t find any source supporting that statement, so I quoted the closest I found. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 07:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
There is a media report that he looked haggard (Alex Roth, San Diego Union-Tribune, June 18, 2002), but this doesn’t accurately reflect the dry cleaners clerk’s testimony, so I have corrected that with the appropriate citation. Also, the wording “Upon returning home” implies that he first arrived home and then went to the dry cleaners, which is not correct, so I have changed that as well. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Why is Westerfield included in this category? He wasn’t convicted of rape. It is generally believed that Danielle was kidnapped for sexual purposes, and that Westerfield is a pedophile, but there’s no evidence she was sexually assaulted (see Category_talk:American_rapists), and the evidence he’s a pedophile is weak: just 1% of his porn may have been child porn (those images were merely described by the prosecution expert as “questionable”), they had seldom been viewed (from one to five times), and they were mostly old (1999). Perhaps because of this, other theories have been proposed. The prosecution suggested he wanted revenge because Brenda and her friends had ignored him at the bar that night. Even if sex was the motive, Brenda thought he may instead have been after her (an adult) or their babysitter (a teenage boy). TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 05:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
As nobody objected, I have now removed this category. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 20:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Should this page (or the other) be modified for consistency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography#Controversy
comp.arch ( talk) 00:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
My concern is that there are conflicting media reports on this case. I’ve been thinking of including a short section on this, giving some examples, which can include the specific one you have raised. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I have added a sentence to the Pornography section of the Westerfield article, and have begun a section on “Conflicting reports” with further evidence, to correct the inconsistency you pointed out. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 09:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I will be updating and wikifying this article, which needs a lot of work - it's been on my to-do list for quite a while. But first I am going to propose a move from "David Westerfield" to "Murder of Danielle van Dam" per usual Wikipedia standard for such articles. If the move request is successful I will recast the article to be about the crime rather than the perpetrator. Are there others who want to help with improving the article? Please do - but let's wait until the move decision since that will necessitate a major change of emphasis and organization. -- MelanieN ( talk) 15:06, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move to Murder of Danielle van Dam. Despite the verbose response, there is no response to how this article does not meet WP:BLP1E. kelapstick( bainuu) 20:19, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
David Westerfield →
Murder of Danielle van Dam – It is the usual Wikipedia practice to name the article after the crime rather than the perpetrator. --Relisted.
Armbrust
The Homunculus 08:23, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
MelanieN (
talk)
15:09, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the article needs improvement, and I have made some changes to achieve this over the past couple of years.
Van Dam or van Dam? Some sources give one, some the other. I don’t know which is correct, and I haven’t tried to determine which is the more common in media reports. So, although I personally prefer the lower case, I didn’t try to change the article.
Thought or alleged? (did not lock their door) There was no sign of a break-in, and testimony was that the door was found open, so it is logical to infer that this is how the perpetrator entered. However, there were two explanations why it was opened: one was to air out marijuana smoke, the other was to answer a phone call. But either way, the current wording could be improved: it wasn’t permanently left unlocked, they just failed to lock it after airing the smoke and answering the call.
van Dam’s body or Danielle’s body? I personally prefer to use the first name in the case of a child, but I think I saw a case in which the first name was changed to the last name, which made me think that was the Wikipedia standard. This article still has an instance (in the Selby section) of the last name being used. I did some searching, and discovered that several other similar articles are also inconsistent: Samantha Runnion, Elizabeth Smart, and JonBenet Ramsey.
Girlfriends or women friends? A quick scan revealed that the former term was used in media reports at the time, and it was interesting to see that even Nancy Grace used it. I’ve also had a quick look at Wikipedia, and it is used there too (and is seemingly mostly acceptable, though “lady friend” and “companion” are also suggested). TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:54, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I've been trying to restore balance to this article, which seems to contain far more arguments and evidence from the defense compared to the prosecution arguments and evidence which convinced a jury. In particular the "trial" section contains NOTHING about the prosecution's evidence, but two paragraphs about the defense arguments. It will take me a day or two before I can get to that section to add the prosecution evidence; if someone else wants to do it first, be my guest. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:31, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm doing some work on this article, and as I proceed I'll place my notes here for what I'm doing and why.
I did some research, and the book Rush to Judgement is a self-published work. Although it bears directly on the Westerfield case, there is no evidence that "C Stevenson," the author, is an expert on the Westerfield case, or on forensics in general. There is no evidence that he has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, or that his work was subject to any kind of editorial oversight. Although self-publishing does not automatically invalidate a source, such sources are generally disallowed with a few exceptions, and Rush to Judgement does not meet any of them. Accordingly, I've removed all references to that book from the article. In all cases except (I think) one, the claim for which the self-published book was the source was already sourced by other articles, mostly mainstream media websites. Chichiri47 ( talk) 20:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The Conclusion heading seemed jarring, and not in line with similar articles. All the information in that section was preserved, with citations added in a couple of cases, and moved to other sections. The "Arrest" and "Trial" sections have been merged, and "Legacy" has been renamed "Aftermath and Legacy" to include the miscellaneous post-trial information from the "Conclusion" section. Chichiri47 ( talk) 22:52, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I’ve also done some research. You can see from their website that the publishers provide comprehensive publishing services. And you can see from the Amazon website that the book is comprehensive and very detailed, with 50 of the 794 pages being references; it was praised by a respected journalist as a well-researched tome; and no evidence has been presented of errors in it. The fact that, “In all cases except (I think) one”, the book is supported by “other articles, mostly mainstream media websites”, is additional proof that it is a reliable source.
There have been many changes to the article, so it will take a long time to study them. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 13:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Stevenson, C. http://www.amazon.com/dp/1460956974, “Rush to Judgement”, CreateSpace, June 22, 2011, pages 29-32, 223 and 486. Heading out to do research, will be back. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:34, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
The sentence about Westerfield being in the Handicrafts program at San Quentin was added by "Rogdriggjr" in May of 2008, in his only-ever contribution to Wikipedia. He did not source it, and I have been unable to find a single source on it. I am deleting the sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chichiri47 ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the Conflicting Reports section as discussed below. I have also removed the Pornography subsection, as this is only marginally related at best to the murder of Danielle. I'd like to leave the Entomology section in place, since I think it's noteworthy given the focus on it during the trial, but it does need an overhaul. Ditto the Selby Confession section. Those are probably next on my list. Chichiri47 ( talk) 19:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I have greatly streamlined the Selby Confession section, and will probably move it out of its own section and under "Aftermath." I am trying to find copies of Westerfield's various appeals from 2004 onward, to see if the Selby letter is cited as a reason to overturn the conviction or grant a new trial, but so far I have been unable to find anything. Does anyone know if the defense cited the Selby letter in an appeal or post-trial motion? Chichiri47 ( talk) 20:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I have greatly trimmed and relocated the Entomology section to the Trial section. I have also relocated the Selby Confession section as discussed, and did some cleanup on the Westerfield section. Don't want to jinx it, but I think I'm close to done here. :-) Chichiri47 ( talk) 01:34, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Entomology dates
The article now states that “The prosecution's entomologist testified that Danielle's body could have been colonized as early as February 2”. There are sources which state that, but the cited source does not. This source is part of the trial transcript, and so is a primary source, which Wikipedia discourages. And this is an example why: they can be more difficult to understand. On page 8968, Goff states that “post feeding numbers are not reached at the Singing Hills site prior to 2 February ” - which appears to mean the 2nd or later - while on page 8973 when asked if he gave a February 2 date, he said “prior to” - so before the 2nd. A contradiction? No. In the first case, he was talking about the method used to calculate the dates, which is backwards from the time the body is found. So February 27, 26, 25, and so on, accumulating the thermal energy for each day. And when he reached the 2nd, the cumulative total still wasn’t enough to arrive at the stage of development the larvae were at. So the body must have been dumped before then. Which agrees with page 8973. But this is impossible. Because she was still alive on the 1st. Does this mean forensic entomology is worthless? No. There are various problems with Goff’s calculations, especially those using Singing Hills temperatures. For a start, that’s a golf course, and their weather station had been damaged, hit by a golf ball, so their recorded temperatures might be wrong. So Goff rightly discarded those calculations. But some reporters obviously didn’t understand this, and neither did a Wikipedia editor. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 05:17, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't believe that the "Conflicting Reports" section is noteworthy enough for inclusion. Whenever you have voluminous media reporting of a particular event, you will have minor flaws and inconsistencies in these reports; these might be noteworthy in a general discussion about inconsistent media reporting in general, but they do not seem to shed light or doubt on the basic facts of the event of Danielle's murder and Westerfield's trial. There is no suggestion, for instance, that the police investigatory process or the jury was improperly influenced by this or that article overstating the evidence.
I don't know of any proposal process for deleting individual sections of an article, so I'll informally propose this section's deletion here. Chichiri47 ( talk) 19:01, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
So you agree that media reports are unreliable but use them anyway, while rejecting use of a book the accuracy of which you have failed to fault. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 18:44, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
“Whenever you have voluminous media reporting of a particular event, you will have minor flaws” Chichiri47.
Minor? Let’s take just the first example in the now-deleted section.
Sexual images of an 18-year-old are legal.
Sexual images of a teen under 18 are illegal, but at most weak evidence of motive for sexual crimes against a 7-year-old.
Sexual images of a 7-year-old are both illegal and strong evidence of motive for such crimes.
Minor? The difference is huge and fundamental. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 12:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Selby was a proven and convicted serial sexual predator. With his history, his confession to killing Danielle could easily be true (assuming she was kidnapped for sexual purposes). Yet all that information has been removed from the article. So that anyone reading it now would wonder how anybody could believe that confession. All the article contains is that he was suspected of sex crimes, and was convicted of something: a traffic violation, perhaps? The expurgated article even casts doubt (without citing a source) on whether it was even him who confessed. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 06:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
You haven’t addressed the fundamental question of why the article was reworded to conceal the fact that Selby was guilty of all those crimes (and yes I was going to mention the attempted murder, so thanks for raising it). Sex was the basis of the case against Westerfield, as can be inferred from the article, yet the article gives no evidence that Danielle was sexually assaulted. By the way, what other high-profile crimes did Selby confess to? TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 15:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
The article quoted two statements made by the defense attorney, both of which are correct. Witness Judy Ray testified that at least 600,000 of one of Westerfield’s devices were sold. So if one were to fault the statement MelanieN has removed, then it would be on the grounds that the attorney understated the facts: Westerfield’s patents improved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 06:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
The bit added yesterday by TheTruth2009 appears in the middle of the section about the trial. However, there is no record of the prosecutor making such an admission during the trial. The closest thing I could find to such an admission was the statement, "Only one person knows where she was killed and when she was killed and it is not the police department," and that was made in a post-trial hearing.
If the sense of the community is that this addition is noteworthy enough for inclusion, then I propose moving the sentence to its correct chronological section and placing it in proper context (Judge at the same hearing: "All of the uncontested physical evidence establishes that this little girl was alive in the motor home"). If the sense is that it is not noteworthy -- and let's face it, murders in which the precise time and location of death are unremarkable, and the prosecution of such cases wholly routine -- then I propose deletion. Chichiri47 ( talk) 00:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
You (MelanieN) have removed the warning message that their entomologist doesn’t say February 2. Have you seen my explanation above? If you have, then please explain why you disagree. The Court TV article cited in the paragraph correctly gives his dates as February 9-14. TheTruth-2009 ( talk) 18:26, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
I find a paragraph detailing the results of his conviction that claims:
"The trial lasted sixty-nine months and concluded on August 8. On August 21, the jury found Westerfield guilty of illegal dumping in the first degree, first degree murder, kidnapping, and possession of child pornography. Westerfield was fined 500 dollars for murder of Danielle, sentenced to death for the first degree illegal dumping."
I think this "first degree dumping" is highly questionable; although that is an actual charge in some states, I can't find a single reference to it being applied the the Westerfield case, or murder cases in general. Being "fined $500 for murder" and "death for illegal dumping" is just ridiculous. I'm going to remove the "illegal dumping" references and change it to only say death for the murder charge. It's obviously wrong the way it is, and I don't know enough about this to do things like flag for vandalism. At least this way I can draw attention to it; if someone else wants to fix it better, be my guest. .45Colt 19:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
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