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On Reardon's biography page on The Elliot Institute site, there is a photograph, described as a "media photo." Does this imply that it is a publicity photo intended for use in the media, and, could we thus use it to illustrate this article under such a fair use rationale? - Severa ( !!!) 16:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The article claimed that the authors of the NZ study had set out to disprove Reardon's findings. In fact none of the 2 reliable sources support this claim. One of them says that the researchers has expectations which turned out to be not true. But this is rather different from saying they set out to disprove anything. In fact, the references support the idea that their primary goal was to do high quality research in this area which they found lacking Nil Einne 06:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
RESPONSE
The introduction and conclusion of Fergesson's paper includes a summary of Reardon's studies and Brenda Major's challenge that the findings would be explained away by preexisting psychological factors. In the paper, but more explicitly in his interviews, Fergusson indicates that it was his and this teams expectation that their analysis would produce results that would support Major's hypothesis rather than Reardon's. For example, in the cited interview Abortion increases mental health risk: study Fergusson states: "We were indeed surprised by the results. Our expectation was that we would find that young women who had abortions had higher rates, but that was due to selection factors, that is the background of young women predisposed them both to abortion and to mental health problems, and we found that that was not in fact the case."
Given Fergusson's insistance that his ideological stand was in line with Majors, being pro-choice, it is not an exaggeration to say that he hoped his data would settle the debate between Reardon and Major by "disproving" Reardon's hypothesis, or conversely, proving Major's hypothesis. The goal of "disproving" a wrong hypothesis is not biased, it's good science. The use of the word "disprove" does not diminish the integrity of Fergusson's intent to do "high quality research."
In any event, to clarify Fergusson's effort to test both Reardon and Major's hypotheses, I rephrased the sentence to read: "In response to the controversy and challenges presented by Reardon's research, a group of New Zealand researchers recently undertook a study to test Major's argument that psychological differences between women with a history of abortions and those with no history of abortion can be best explained by more pre-existing psychological disorders among the types of women most likely to undergo an abortion." It's a long sentence, but accurate and avoids the phrase "disprove"
Having fixed these objections, I'm removing the neutrality concern. (See also Response to NPOV)
POINT OF COMMENT
I think all of this business about the New Zealand article should be moved to a section titled New Zealand article. For instance, nobody knows who Fergusson is, and this is only tangentially related to the topic of a biography of David Reardon. This entire description of what did or did not happen with the New Zealand situation deserves to be removed from the main article and placed into a section. Dbackeberg 03:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I added the NPOV check because some of the sources used need to be scrutinsed carefully. One of them in particular afterabortion which is run by the Eliot Institute the organisation which David Reardon works for, seems highly dubious to me and someone needs to check it's usage in each instance is appropriate. It's probably fine for mentioning David's POV but shouldn't generally be used for anything else. I removed one usage where it was unneeded but I strongly suspect other some instances need to be removed too. For example, it's used to support the claim that the NZ team 'scolded' the APA. A better reference probably needs to be found for this or it should be removed Nil Einne 06:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
RESPONSE
I clarified reference as per Nil Einne's request, pointing to the Washington Times article which quotes Fergusson's paper. The best citation is to Fergusson's article itself, but it is not readily available online without a subscription.
Regarding Nil's general objection to links to afterabortion.info, the pages cited all include citations to any research published in peer reviewed journals. Again, many of these journal articles are not readily available without subscription -- and are therefore difficult for the average WIKIPEDIA user to check. I see no reason why articles from the Elliot Institute website should be classified as more "dubious" than articles from the Washington Times, the Washington Monthly, or Brenda Major's commentary in CMAJ.
COUNTER The Washington Times links aren't working anymore. I can't tell if the language in the section near the Washington Times section is a direct quote of the article, a direct quote of the actual research, or the invention of the Wikipedia author who wrote this section. Regardless, the flow of the article is bad. If there is a need for a criticism, and a response, and a response to the response, these should be broken out of the main article and put into a section for easier reading. Dbackeberg 03:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a criticism section at the bottom of the page, and put some criticisms into this area. The article as it stood was more of a treatise than a wikipedia article, and is in substantial need of revision. I also revised some strong affirmative language about the validity of a certain study that I feel wasn't actually claimed by the description of the study, and therefore the article didn't match what was said in the description of the study. I think the best thing for the article would be to add a biography section near the top of the page, ideally with a picture, and anything else about the subject's credential's beside the already-criticized Ph.D. in bioethics. Dbackeberg 04:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I cut this, due to NPOV and lack of citation:
The findings were so unexpected that in the conclusions section of their paper Fergusson's team criticized the American Psychological Association (APA) for its one sided reviews of abortion complications [1] and specifically for the APA's failure to cite and discuss the findings of researchers like Reardon. Following media coverage of this criticism, the APA withdrew a position paper on abortion from their website [2] and has created a new task force to report on the mental health effects of abortion. [3] In response to Fergusson's criticisms, an APA spokesperson stated that Fergusson's research would have no effect on the APA's official stand on abortion because: "To pro-choice advocates, mental health effects are not relevant to the legal context of arguments to restrict access to abortion." [4]
end-snip
The only sources for this are the Washington Times, and both articles cited here aren't available anymore. Even if a similar source could be found, the link title for these sections is entitled "commentary", and these comments are more opinion about what a study said than statistical figures drawn from the study, or at least from the abstract of the study. For instance, an opposing commentary would point out the study called for further study, that the sample size was only 500 women, that late teenage years are the times that many mental illnesses are first detected, and the big one: that association is not the same as correlation. So I cut that paragraph, as the important thing about the study was the numbers and the discovery of an association between abortion and mental illness among the patients in the study. Dbackeberg 04:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Criticisms should be found in published statements of experts in the field.
An editor added a number of his or her own novel arguments attacking the credibility of Reardon and Coleman which are not based in any referenced criticism of an expert...or even a journalist. As a reference work, this section of the article is supposed to reflect the criticisms of experts, such as Brenda Major, whose criticms are rightly summarized here. This is not the place for non-expert Wikipedia commentators to post "here's another agument against Reardon" arguments.
For example, following the notice that Reardon has a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics, the editor adds several sentences arguing that it is therefore misleading for Reardon to coauthor articles related to the psychology as if this implies he is a psychologists. Besides the fact that these articles include coauthors who are psychologists, it is very common for journal articles to be coauthored by parties whoh are not experts in the particular branch of knowledge covered by the journal. The most obvious example is that statisticians are coauthors of studies in every field of research even though they may have no expertise in medicine, chemistry, or psychology. Peer review journals do not judge the degrees or universities of contributors....the work must stand on its own merits in terms of the quality of data and methodology. This is why even Brenda Major has not attacked Reardon's credentials...only his perceived anti-abortion bias...because the issue of credentials are not a strong argument in the world of peer reviewed research.
Put another way...academics who read peer reviewed papers regularly know that the actual field of training and expertise of any author or coauthor should not be presumed just from the topic of the paper. That's a very rookie mistake. Unless there is evidence that Reardon has beed describing himself as a psychologist, the argument that some people may assume that he is a psychologist is as silly as the claim that any biomedical ethicist who publishes papers on euthanasia is likely to be perceived as an anesthesiolgist.
This or another editor also inserted a paragraph criticizing Coleman...who is not even a subject of this article except incidentally being "guilty by association" with Reardon as a coauthor. These arguments assert that since Coleman has served as an expert witness in legal cases she too is "biased" and must be motovated by a desire to restrict abortion rights. Again, this (1) has nothing to do with an article on Reardon and (2) is an uncited criticism which has not been made by experts in the field but only by a Wikipedia contributor. It also infers a whole lot about Coleman and her motivations and even about the uncited cases in which she was an expert. The fact that she probably was paid over $300 per hour as an expert may be sufficient motivation for anyone to testify about the facts as they see them. But that too is irrelevent.
Finally, in the same section I removed a paragraph about the APA's denial that post-abortion syndrome exists because this is not an article about post-abortion syndrome, where such a paragraph rightly belongs. Moreover, if you look at Reardon's articles, he avoids the term "post-abortion syndrome" and but prefers to speak more generally of specific symptoms rather than a set "syndrome" consisting of a complete set of symptoms. So this paragraph is also out of place and appears to be advocating a point of view since it is not even placed in context of a position that Reardon is known to advocate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.157.173.2 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous 131.216.41.16 has repeatedly inserted the following highly perjotative introductory paragraph to this biography.
David C Reardon, is a pro-life activist,[1][2] who received his degree in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school.[3][4] Reardon is the director of the on-line Elliot Institute. The institute has no buildings or facilities.[5]
Objections:
1. The term "pro-life activist" is a label, not a profession. Since the citations do document that Reardon describes himself as a "pro-life activist" it is inappropriate to apply this potentially perjotive term to him as if it were a fact rather than an opinion. For example the phrase "pro-life activist" implies that Reardon has been involved in sit-ins, ralleys, or at least political activism. But the record indicates no activism in the form of rallys or sit-ins and that the only legislation Reardon has advocated is legislation that would help women who are at higher risk of suffering complications to abortion or are at risk of being pressured into unwanted abortions. In his book Making Abortion Rare, he appears to argue on a woman centered rather than fetus centered argument against abortion, even proposing a redefinition of "anti-abortion" in the sense of "anti-this-unsafe-medical-procedure" as a separate argument about abortion as distinct from the pro-life and pro-choice arguments.
2. Criticism of the source of Reardon's degree is properly placed and more completely discussed elsewhere. The phrase "correspondence school" is perjotive and even "unaccredited" needs to be placed into a context that identifies accreditating sources. As noted in the corrected article, while Pacific Western University is not accredited by one of the members of the Council for Higher Education Accreditation it is a licensed university and the degrees it issues have proper legal standing. One can argue about the quality of his higher education, but not that he has a degree from an institution authorized to grant Ph.D.s. Also, as biographies do not normally begin with identifying the source of one's degree with a transtion into a discussion of the school's quality this is totally out of place. It is clearly just thrown in here to advance a POV intended to frontload the biography with criticsms of the subject.
3. The claim that "The institute has no buildings or facilities" is also perjotive and unsupported by the citation. First, this article is about Reardon, not the Elliot Institute. Second, the citation simply does not support the statement or address the facilities rented or owned by the Elliot Institute in any way. Thirdly, whether or not the Elliot Institute owns any buildings is irrelevant. But if one calls the office, they clearly have an office (possibly rented) and staff, and "facilities" in the form of equipment typical of offices.
4. All of these criticims also apply to 131.216.41.16's biased attempt to describe the Elliot Institute as nothing more than an "online" entity. That the Elliot Institute has a significant online presence does not mean that is the "only" form of it's functioning as it is clearly a legal entity incorporated in the state of Illinois.
In short, the edits of 131.216.41.16 do not contribute facts regarding the subject, David Reardon, but are POV efforts to dismiss him, his degree, and the Elliot Institute in the very first sentence of the biography. The valid issue surrounding his degree from a non-accredited institution is properly placed in the criticims section and should be presented in a non-perjotive fashion. Strider12 16:51, 9 November 2007
1. Untrue. Ues of the term "pro-life" on the Elliot Institute's website does not constitute a claim or admission that Reardon is a "pro-life activist." Give the exact citation and quote to support your claim that he describes himself as a "pro-life activist".
2. Untrue. Give a citation from Pacific Western University, or Reardon, describing it as an "unaccredited correspondence school" All schools involve correspondence...that's the nature of communication...and there are many accredited "correspondence" schools.
3. Untrue ... or at least undocumented by the page you cite. Give the citation to exact page and a quote from the website. You can't just point to a whole website and say the evidence is in there somewhere when the page you link to says nothing to the point you claim.
4. I don't even know what you mean by "it is not a research facility." Do you mean they don't have a chemical laboratory or neutrino accelerator? Clearly Reardon and the Elliot Institute have conducted research that has been published in peer reviewed medical journals, ergo they do research. If you cannot see the bias in your attacks on Reardon and the Elliot Institute, your extreme POV has muddled your ability to be objective. The fact that you keep posting these characterizing and belittling "corrections" without any factual support for them underscores that you are trying to advance an agenda. — Strider12 16:51, 12 November 2007
Anonymous 131.216.41.16 continues to post a strongly POV opening paragraph to this biography and is ignoring the basic distinctions discussed in my first explanation of why his POV opening paragraph is inappropriate.
Firstly, this bio is about Reardon, not the Elliot Institute or Pacific Western University. If these affiliations are to be discussed, it should not be in the opening paragraph.
Secondly, an institution may have different views and purposes than an individual. You cannot conflate information about the Elloit Institute with a biography about Reardon but must say, for example, "Reardon works for the Elliot Institute which has expressed support for pro-life views." avoiding the perjotive phrase "pro-life activists", for example. It is not "Reardon's Institute."
A unbiased biography should not label someone an "activist" unless he or she labels himself that. That Reardon has pro-life views is not in dispute, the issue is whether this is the defining characteristic of this man. As noted elsewhere, this is certainly a label that he would deny as he has repeatedly asserted that his views are an attempt to define an ethic of medical proactice that respects both pro-woman and pro-life views. (See Making Abortion Rare) And as noted above, there is evidence that he has been a protestor -- which is what most people assocaite with an "activist." As a well published researcher, Reardon is at least obstensibly an academic involved in the discussion of ideas. One is free to argue otherwise, but that should be in the criticims section...not the first paragraph.
This anonymous editor should read the Wikipedia section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#A_simple_formulation to see how it is proper to raise the assertion and discuss the claim that Reardon is a "pro-life activist." Following that principle is the best way to raise questions about Reardon's neutrality / authority on the abortion issue. Others have already followed this formulation rule as seen in the discussion of Brenda Major's criticisms of Reardon's work.
This anonymous editor's assertion above that since the Elliot Institute has offices in Springfield, IL and St. Charles, MO, "This shows the Institute does not currently have a research facility. A research facility includes libraries (the kind with books), and/or scientific laboratories" is patently absurd. That Reardon engages in research and has published research is indisputable -- look his studies up on PubMed! The editor's absurd definition of a "research facility" is nonsensical and has no place in this biography.
Finally, the Elliot Institute's website devoted to abortion issues, www.afterabortion.info, remains up and has hundreds of pages STILL devoted to abortion issues. While I haven't done a page by page comparison, all the pages I'm familiar with are still on the website. This critic's charge that the Elliot Institute has changed it's website is simply bizarre. Websites are constantly being changed, so what is your point!? And the author doesn't even site particular pages that have been changed. Pointing to pages that indicate that the Elliot Institute or even Reardon supports pro-life views still fails to justify labeling either as a "pro-life activist." A more neutral form would be that "Reardon supports a pro-life viewpoint" or "supports pro-life laws," etc. Still, these indications of his orientation on the abortion issue, which are prefectly fair, do not belong in the first paragraph. Strider12 20:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Glad to see a little progress. As you are concerned about the Ph.D., I also propose removing the designation from the first line, simply giving his name. That eliminates giving Reardon what is arguably undue credence in the first line of the biography. It avoids also your rather controversial assertion that you or anyone should be in charge of determining what constitutes "vetted academic credentials." In most universities, publications matter more than the source of one's degree. ("Publish or perish") Output is more critical than background. That is why I consider criticisms of where Reardon got his degree, or "degree" if you prefer, really a red herring. His work has been published in many top medical journals, therefore publishers and peer reviewers in the academic community consider his work to be up to par with all the other authors they accept.
Clearly the Pacific Western controversy is deserving discussion, but as provided by Wikipedia rules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#A_simple_formulation it should only be discussed in a form in which you are discussing the Mooney article which raises the question and concern. Actually, unless you can find a source where Reardon discusses that he has a degree from Pacific Western University, Mooney's report may not even be correct... but let's go ahead and assume it is.
As pointed out in Wikipedia section you have a right to raise controversies but only by means of citing a verifiable source of the person raising the controversy.
Basic rule for editing: You should not insert your own arguments...you need to find some reasonably credible source outside Wikipedia who has raised these arguments (like Mooney) and cite his criticisms. I've done this in the appropriate section for criticisms.
This applies to your Elliot Institute inference. But since I know it is important to you, I also added the Elliot Institute argument you made and clarified the position on the cited page to the criticms section. But really this should also be referenced to some other publication of someone criticizing Reardon and the Elliot Institute for a pro-life bias and raising the issue that this anti-human engineering proposal is evidence of a pro-life bias.
Again, my main objection to your edits is that you are trying to front load three criticims into the first paragraph which are your arguments and inferences which fork into dual criticims of Reardon and Pacific Western and Reardon and the Elliot Institute. There is room for raising these issues, but they should be dealt with in the body of the article, not the first paragraph whcih should be limited to Reardon.
Your new material asserts that Reardon claims to have had his degree from Pacific Western University but you have no citation from Reardon for this. The only claim for this is from Mooney.
The status of Pacific Western is unrelated to this biography as we have no idea when or if Reardon received his degree there.
Why should there be a reference to Reardon as a psychologist?
Your assertions and inferances are not contributing to a factual report and your attempt to front load the article with as many negatives as you can imagine is disruptive to the effort of those other editors, such as myself, who are attempting to create a NPOV article which includes appropriate places (two in this case!) for raising criticims that have been directed at Reardon. As stated above, as an editor it is your obligation to find people who have raised these criticims and to site THEM rather than to insert your own criticims presented as facts.
2. These articles assert he has a degree from Pacific Western, but do not state that Reardon told them this was so. And if you believe it is so, it should not be stated as if this is just what "Reardon claims." You are inserting doubt to discredit...which is the whole problem with your edits...they are all geared to discredit Reardon in the first paragraph.
3. You are the one who wrote "::2. I don't see any mention of Reardon being a psychologist/" here in the discussion section... a few paragraphs above.
4. You bias is screaming out.
Here is a page about Reardon from on a Pro-Life forum. Several of the posters question his qualifications. Obviously these pro-life pages do not meet the standard for citation within the David Reardon article; however, it shows that even those with a seemingly pro-life "bias" question Reardon's qualifications. It also seems to point to the fact that David Reardon has been referring to himself as a Dr. in many pro-life forums (both in person and on-line). What "Laura" writes in her post is the interesting part: http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/07/weekend_reads_1.html)-- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 04:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Last, let's try to avoid a revert war by not removing factual, cited information without discussing it on the talk page first. -- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 19:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Your introduction is biased, a rambling attack on the Elliot Institute and Pacific Western, and has been thoroughly discussed above and you continue to ignore my suggestions that these points should be confined to the sections relative to the criticims of Reardon and cited to sources other than your own inferences. I'm tired with arguing with you about it and will continue to revert the introduction to an unbaised format without further arguements with you. If you can't see the bias in your statements you are an ideologue who has lost all sense of objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
-- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 23:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Stop repeating your arguments and carefully read the sources you cite. Show me the link and give an exact quote from the Elliot Institute web site saying Reardon claims to have a degree form PWU.
Also, read carefully and report carefully what Mooney writes. Mooney does not report that "Reardon claims to have received a Ph.D..." etc. Mooney reports that Reardon does have a degree from PWU but he does so without any citation or confirmation as to where he got this information. He never says he interviewed Reardon and it is evident that he probably did not, but instead just read some articles by or about Reardon from which he formulated his attack piece. You're free to quote Mooney's attacks, as per Wikipedia's recommendations for raising controversy by quoting others, but you should not create your own attacks and you should closely track or quote exactly what Mooney said without elaborations which even Mooney might reject as over the top inferences.
Also, the New York Times article is from 1994. It does not mention Reardon, and you have no idea when Reardon received his degree from PWU, and an attempt to close PWU was apparantly rejected by the courts since it stayed in existence and just recently changed its name...see Pacific Western University. Perhaps after being investigated by the state, PWU improved its program to meet state standards and Reardon received a "good" degree, according to California, even if an unaccredited degree.
Stick to the facts relevent to Reardon. If you want to attack PWU, put your New York Times article on the PWU page. Strider12 ( talk) 04:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Anon 131.216.41.16 claim that "the Elliot Institute has no buildings or facilities, and is not a research facililty" is unverfied and ludicrous. Why not just have an opening paragraph that reads: "David Reardon is a flim-flam artist who pretends to work with the Elliot Institute, which is a meaningless shell, and has somehow convinced dozens of peer reviewed journals to publish his nonsense." Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 15:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Your personal definition of an "Institute" is irrelevent as is your petty and unsupported statement that "The Elliot Institute has no buildings or facilities, and is not a research facililty." That it is looking for funding is also irrelevent to this biography -- and is typical of all institutions.
Look up the Wikipedia definiton for institute. Also, I have to laugh, I looked at your link to support your "they have no building" claim, http://www.elliotinstitute.org/coalition.htm, and see that you have no understanding of the term "coalition building" as used on that page. Ha Ha Ha! This page doesn't say thay have no buildings or offfices or libraries! It says they are working to build (verb) a coalition (noun) by inviting other groups and organizations to join the effort of banning human engineering and that they hope or intend that once this coalition is built to form a new coalition organization rather than have the Elliot Institute serve as the ongoing organizing force behind their effort. You cite this as supporting the idea that they are raising funds for a "Coaliton Building"! You're hilarious...and wrong as usual. Strider12 ( talk) 18:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
You need a better dictionary. All of the following definitions of Institute are nouns (see
http://www.answers.com/topic/institute):
1. Something instituted, especially an authoritative rule or precedent.
2. A digest of the principles or rudiments of a particular subject, especially a legal abstract.
3. An organization founded to promote a cause: a cancer research institute. (Maybe as anogther example, A POST-ABORTION RESEARCH INSTITUTE!)
4. An educational institution, especially one for the instruction of technical subjects.
5. The building or buildings housing such an institution.
6. A usually short, intensive workshop or seminar on a specific subject.
To argue that the Elliot Institue is not a "real institute" because it doesn't have (you claim without support) buildings lacks even minimum level of credibility. Besides, what does it matter what the Elliot Institute's real estate holdings are?
Your argument about buildings and your immediate attack on PWU actually come across as petty, silly, and loaded with a desire to immediately bias readers against Reardon with ad hominum and guilt by association attacks.
You are actually weakening your arguments in the way you present them. Don't try to front load the article with attacks, especially abbreviated ones that digress off onto attacks on PWU's credibility and the Elliot Institute.
Please stop distorting what should be a simple introduction which explains that Reardon has come to be of some note because of the studies he has published related to a controversial topic, abortion, which has resulted in additional controversy around Reardon himself. There is plenty of space in the body to present criticims of Reardon and the Elliot Institute by citing facts and sources of those who have raised these criticims. But even then, do so without your inferences--no matter how solid you think them to be. See Wiki policy on "no original research" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research which encompasses what you are doing when you say here's fact one, here's fact two, therefore this is my summary of the meaning of these facts (or in your case, allegations by third parties--such as Mooney).
I'm not your enemy. You can find proper ways to present the facts you feel are pertinent, but I won't stand by and let you distort the facts with inferences and deducations of your own or to front load the article with non sequiters.
Find someone to read what you are writing who is not quite as passionately hostile to Reardon who can help you moderate your approach. Strider12 ( talk) 18:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
...Reardon founded his own quasi-academic think tank, the Elliot Institute for Social Sciences Research. At the time, Reardon had a background in electronic engineering; he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction.
-- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 21:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I just finished listening to the audio of Reardon's speech. He seems a genuinely compassionate man. It is worth listening to, and is located here: http://www.nprcouncil.org/radio/5drdavidreardon.ram . -- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 00:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Last, who Emily Balezon is related to does not belong in an article about David Reardon. If you want to make the case that what Balezon writes is incorrect, please do so on the talk pages. But it is misleading to imply that because Betty Friedan is Balezon's cousin, Balezon is an activist like Friedan was. This section should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 21:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
"Pro-life" is the term by which the pro-life movement identifies itself so it isn't in any way pejorative — a pejorative term for "pro-life" would be "anti-choice." I understand that the term "activist" carries with it an implication of involvement in grassroots-level advocacy like vigils, demonstrations, or handing out leaflets, so perhaps a more general term like "advocate" would be appropriate. The fact that Reardon is pro-life is supported by statements he has made in the past, particularly during this interview, and I definitely think it is worth noting somewhere in the article. I'm just not certain where.
I think it is redundant to cover the issue of whether Pacific Western University is accredited or unaccredited in the introduction when it is already handled elsewhere in the article (see John Gray (U.S. author) for a similar example). - Severa ( !!!) 22:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, you've made quite a few more edits and indeed left some things out. How long should we wait to include them back? The following are my concerns:
According to the Elliot Institute website, Reardon "is a frequent guest on Christian radio and Christian television talk shows and has been a frequently invited speaker state and national conventions for crisis pregnancy centers and pro-life organizations" and "Dr. Reardon's three-pronged strategy for ending abortion by helping women has already been adopted by many pro-life organizations at the local, state, and national levels. It appears certain that the popularity of this new compassionate approach to the abortion conflict will continue to grow and become a permanent part of pro-life activities." [5] David Reardon has also addressed the National Right to Life Committee convention in 1998, where he advocated the need to minister to women who have had, and that abortion leads to " Post Traumatic Stress Disorder." [6] [7]
-- 70.173.47.6 ( talk) 03:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I would also like to add that within any explanation of the Elliot Institute, the fact that it is a pro-life advocacy organization needs to be made clear.
Also, the fact that Reardon has a Ph.D. from what is commonly termed a "degree mill" is not an "academic criticism." However, it is a valid criticism mentioned in at least two of our cited references. Therefore, I'm going to add it as a special section. -- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 19:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous 131 continues to insert inferences and inappropriately cited material just for the sake of attacking Reardon. To whit:
1. Citation 5 does not refer to Pacific Western University. Nor does Mooney report that he ever interviewed Reardon.
2. The criticism is raised by Mooney and should be cited as one raised by Mooney.
3. The New York Times article describes an investigation and attempt to close, not that it was closed.
4. Wikipedia reports in a disputed article that Pacific Western University has been a licensed degree granting school in two states, California and Hawaii, and that the California school is still operating (and licensed to grant degrees) but is now operating under the name California Miramar University.
5. It is unknown when Reardon received his degree, whether before or after controversies arose in California leading to the investigations. Nor is there any evidence that he did not complete program work appropriate to his degree.
This is all a guilt by association argument. His research, published in peer reviewed journals, and in collaboration with a number of other Ph.D's and M.D.'s who may have done much or most of the research, stands on it's own merit.
It is fair to point out that Mooney has raised this criticism, but it is not appropriate -- and is a violation Wikipedia's "no new research" policy to try to insert additonal arguments against PWU into an article about Reardon in an effort to undermine Reardon. Mooney's allegations tell the story and it is a fact that Mooney has made these allegations.
Therefore I have put this section as follows:
The link to Pacific Western University is sufficient to lead the reader to learn more about the PWU controversy if they desire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 15:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted a series of edits by User:Strider12 for the following reasons:
I hope that sheds some light on the specific issues behind my reversion. MastCell Talk 06:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Disagree on all counts. All newspaper articles are the works of a journalist, columnist, who may or may not be successful in eliminating their own POV. All three of the media articles cited, including the Boston Globe, have no internal evidence to support the idea that the writers ever even interviewed Reardon. That they "characterize" Reardon as wanting to "impose strict bans on abortion" is their own interpretation of the matter. It is well known, and accepted, that journalists and editors will work for a "slant" in their stories that make them more compelling. You are free to report the slant, but do not charcterize it as "fact." You are naive if you think that PBS did not mine quotes for their own end, and once again are trying to claim that "a reliable second source" trumps everything which comes from "biased pro-life sources."
All of Reardon's studies cited in here are also peer reviewed articls, therefore Grimes' and Reardon's articles should be treated with equal weight. It is very appropriate to list Grime's credentials and to site transcripts from a federal case regarding his work as an abortion provider and abortion activist. That I linked to a pro-life site that has the document is not inappropriate, but feel free to replace it with a link to a federal court archive if you can find it. Since the whole field of abortion and mental health is very controversial topic and both sides will have opinions, and people like Fergusson (a pro-choice atheist who has done the best longitudinal study on this issue) are siding with Reardon rather than the abortion advocacy groups. It is inappropriate for you to decide which of those in this controversy is right and to hide attributions and criticisms for that side of the debate, and to argue that Reardon and anyone else who sides with him is "biased", out of touch with "the real experts" and to pretend that journalists at papers which regularly publish editorials in favor of abortion are "reliable" "neutral" sources, while every source that supports Reardon's views should be dismissed or treated with suspicion.
One of the weakness of the pro-abort's position, which continues to exist in this article, is that there is a lot of hand waving and ad hominum attacks on Reardon himself, but no discussion of the actual statistics he has published. When you read Majors' CMAJ, editorial for example, doesn't dispute the actual statistics reported by Reardon but is instead a long explanation about her worry that people might interpret these findings as a straight forward causal link rather than as an entirely incidental phenomena, as she does.
I'm reverting to a better version of the article. Please try not to delete any of the material I have added. Also, the full bibliography is appropriate and should not be remvoed. Feel free to insert new material in an appropropriate place, but purging material is inappropriate. And I will continue to insert appropriate material citing who said what and what their affiliations are. Strider12 19:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Give me a listing of the peer reviewed articles which specify the "numerous criticisms of Reardon's methodology" other than Brenda Major CMJ article. All the rest are letters to the editor (which are not peer reviewed for content, such as the BMJ" or from reporters who never interviewed Reardon and have no expertise in research methodology in general or post-abortion research specifically. Most of the criticims are ad hominum or general dismissals. Also, please give an exact quote of Grimes discussing Reardon's studies (as the cite given does not appear to suggest that Grimes--an obstetrisian--conducted a lit review of mental health studies or Reardon in particular, but instead appeared to simply reiterate the standard claim without addressing the research published since 2000.
Your position that one should ignore primary sources and instead quote only from "reliable secondary sources" --- combined with your provision that all sources from those with a pro-life view are "unreliable" (such as court transcripts available from Priests for Life" --- is simply unsupported by any Wikipedia policy.
Regarding Fergusson's second study, if you read the study, not just the abstract, you will better understand the meaning of what is said in the abstract: "Adjustment for confounding factors indicated that most of these differences were explained by family, social and educational characteristics that were present prior to pregnancy." In other words, all of the possible benefits turn out to be more related to factors other than abortion. So your statement "he found that young women who had abortions had significantly better psychosocial outcomes than those who carried their pregnancies to term" is a misrepresentation -- a common problem. What you CAN properly say is that he found that "even after adjustment for confounding factors, young women who had abortions had higher levels of subsequent educational achievement than those who became pregnant but did not have abortions." In other words, continued education was the only postive factor significantly associated with abortion. But even that positive finding is unlikely to "chalk one up for abortion" since those who had abortions were just more likely to finish high school or college compared to those who had their babies and took time off from school to be with their children. This is NOT the same as saying they had "significantly better psychosocial outcomes" -- but it is the type of overgeneralization typical of Russo, Major, and Stotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC) [User:Strider12|Strider12]] 22:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they found educational advantages...only...so you should report in the article ONLY educational advantages and not misrepresent broader mental health benefits which they reported were NOT statistically attributable to abortion.
The fact that these reporters haven't interviewed Reardon, which I haven't even tried to put into the article, is clearly pertinent to how the article should be presented as it underscores that their characterizations of his positions are not his own self description but are their characterizations...and should therefore be attributed to them.
Grimes statement is his own, and no more authoratitive then any other statement in a peer reviewed journal. And the article isn't even primarily about mental health nor does it pretend to be a complete review (such as the APA task force is now undertaking). Nor was the article commissioned by Annals, nor should it be suggested that they "stand behind" it as the last word, nor does it represent the official position of any expert body other than Grimes and his co-author. The article you cite is just a overview for internists from an aging abortionist trying to encourage other doctors to join the club. Of course he will say there are no psychiatric problems, it's what the abortion industry has been saying for thirty years, but that doesn't make it a fact .... nor even the opinion of the majority of physicians, who since most have not studied the issue or the recent glut of studies since 20000, really isn't worth much anyway. I'll grant that the opinion of the expected new APA task force report will at least have the merit of being informed by a review of the literature.
This is a complex and controversial issue. Why do you feel a need to purge my clarifications of who says what, unless it is because you are trying to make the opinions of the "experts" you prefer sound like objective facts?
Is your case so weak that you can't just accept the importance of attributing generalizations about Reardon or post-abortion mental health to the people making them? (Our dispute about referencing the statement to the Boston Globe reporter, being another example.) Why resist what are clearly appropriate clarifications about who says this about Reardon and who says what about the issue of abortion maladjustments? I don't take out any of the points of controversy you are trying to insert, I'm just attributing them to who said them. Strider12 19:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
See below. Reardon is an expert in the field as verified by numerous peer reviewed journals. Your statement that "he has no legitimacy in the scientific community" is simply false. At best you can cite a number of scientists--Major, Russo and Stotland--who are all on record as opposing abortion regulations arguing that he overstates his evidence and is working to stop abortion. That does not consitute the views of "the scientific community" much less "scientific consensus." See the editors of the CMAJ's editorial. Consider also that Reardon has co-authored his studies with a half dozen or more other Ph.D.'s and M.D.'s who are part of the scientific community. Together with dozens of peer reviewers who have examined his work, they affirm that he is an expert. Your arguments regarding PAS have no place here as there are no cites that Reardon even advocates for that definition.
Afterabortion.org material is the official website for the Elliot Institute, run by Reardon, and is a reputable source precisely because Wikipedia policy also provides that:
It is certainly fair, however, to require that the TEXT of the article should include mention that what is presented is from Reardon or the Elliot Institute (if not attributed to Reardon on the web page) since they are both accused of bias. Editors should not PURGE information from experts, like Reardon, simply because others have accused them of bias. Simply make sure that the information on both sides is attributed (in the text, not just the foontnotes) to the persons making the charges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 14:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy on reliable sources states that
1. From this it follows that all of the studies published in peer reviewed journals in which Reardon is lead or co-author should be treated as reliable sources and should be included in any "weighting of viewpoints." Editors in the purging campaign who have decided to eliminate peer reviewed articles simply because they are associated with Reardon are simply not justified in treating these works as unreliable.
2. As Reardon is clearly an established expert in this field, having published dozens of studies in peer reviewed journals, it follows that the material he publishes through the Elliot Institute must also be accepted as reliable (at least in reporting a view of some experts) since Wikipedia policy also provides that:
In other words, numerous third-party peer reviewed journals (including both editors and reviewers) have already verified the reliability of Reardon as a researcher and have accepted him as an expert in his field. In addition, Reardon is one of many scientists who are publishing articles showing links between abortion and mental health problems (including, Coleman, Fergusson, Gissler, Rue, Shuping and others). As an established expert in this field, material published by the Elliot Institute, of which he is the director, is also "relevent," especially when attributed to him.
3. Wikipedia policy also states that "Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text." In other words, the text, not just the footnote, should attribute who says what. This is especially important given the contentious nature of post-abortion issues and the fact that the "sources" (those on either side of this debate) appear to disagree on nearly everything. Both sides accuse the individual researchers and reporters covering this issue of bias. Indeed, we editors are accusing each other of POV bias in the posts for this article. Since we cannot eliminate everyone's bias, we should carefully identify who is saying what so any bias, generalization, or inference is properly attributed to the source.
Thus, we should accept as a foregone conclusion that everyone who cares enough about this issue to write about it has a POV which colors their word choices and judgments regarding the evidence for or against the "post-abortion syndrome" theory.
Therefore, in keeping with Wikipedia policy, the editors of this article should be careful to ATTRIBUTE IN THE TEXT any generalizations about the research or individuals (such as media characterizations of Reardon) to the individual authors who have published these views. Editors should not declare as a "fact" that research showing higher rates of psychiatric admissions following abortion (Reardon, CMAJ) are wrong. Good editors will instead meticulously cite and name the person who criticizes a particular study (for example, Major CMAJ) and QUOTE her comments while carefully avoiding any embellishment or inferences. Strider12 ( talk) 16:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, before the article ends up protected - I think the only way this will get worked out is if we take issues one at a time. It's impossible to have a dialog by alternating 40kb posts addressing dozens of issues at a time, accompanied by edits which insert many disputed edits simultaneously. Let's start with the lead. Strider12 has continually removed mention from the lead that Reardon is a pro-life adovcate in favor of strict barriers to abortion. I believe this is well-documented in reliable sources, including by Reardon himself, and an essential and notable part of his biography, without which any contextualization is incomplete. His role as an advocate is at least as notable as his role as a researcher, and this is documented by reliable sources. WP:LEAD indicates that all notable sapects of the subject should be covered in the lead. Could Strider12 explain why s/he feels the lead should not make mention of Reardon's pro-life advocacy? MastCell Talk 17:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay. First, I think it unnecessary to load the first paragraph with "context" regarding how others perceive his pro-life and political views. These can and should be dealt with more thoroughly in the main body. of the article. While there have been improvements on this front, see here as an example of front loading the article with bias, unverified inferences, guilt by association and other nonsense.
But if there is a consensus that his political views need to be stated in the very first paragraph, it should be contextualized either by the simple expedient of attributing this characterization to a person making the generalization or drawing from Reardon own sources regarding how he has characterized his position, which is more complex than what is typically considered the "pro-life" advocacy view. (Indeed, he has been criticized by several pro-life publications for his "too pro-woman" views.)
For reference, here is the current lead:
Alternate #1, which clarifies that Kranish is characterizing Reardon's position:
Alternate #2, which is, as best as I can read it, how Reardon characterizes his position:
Alternate #3: Briefer--but still unlikely to satisfy those who want to pigeon hole Reardon right up front:
--
Strider12 (
talk)
00:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Policy for lead suggests that " Contentious material about living persons must be cited every time, regardless of the level of generality." That he advocates a "pro-woman/pro-life" approach as you word it is acceptable and notable because it invites the reader to learn how and why he distinguishes this from a pro-life approach.
It is unacceptable however, to characterize him as "advocating strict barriers to abortion" as that is a reporter's characterization, not Reardon's description. He would deny that he is erecting any barriers to abortion, but is instead simply advocating that doctors should be held properly liable for injuries caused by abortion. Making Abortion Rare does not advocate a ban or barriers. The claim he "advocates strict barriers" pigeon holes him as an anti-abortion extremist rather than an advocate for listening to women hurt by abortion, which is how he portrays himself, and as I and many post-abortive women see him. -- Strider12 ( talk) 03:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
He claims it on his website, and in downloadable speeches. It is clear he considers himself "pro-life." You cannot continue to dispute this. We've shown you the citations several times over.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 23:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
He claims he is pro-life and pro-woman, as I have frequently documented. Reporting only half of his self-description is a distortion. It is the distortion I dispute. Secondly, that he "favors strict barriers to abortion" is the characterization of a reporter. I have documented, and continue to have purged, his more nuanced postion which is to provide right to redress for women injured by abortion. Whether or not that constitute a "strict barrier to abortion" may be debated, but it is clearly not his own characterization. Once again, you (singular, since I believe IronAngelAlice, MastCell and Anon 131 are all the same person using multiple logins to create a false "consensus") cannot simply take a couple reporter's accounts and treat them as the final authorative word nor ignore Wikipedia policy that such reporter's characterizations of a living person should be attributed, in the text, to the reporter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
1. This is a biography of a living person who is a researcher and writer. The complete bibliography of this person is relevent and verifiable. Deleting the bibliography of his research is a blatent attempt to hide his achievements so that criticisms of his work will not seem so petty. PLEASE STOP THE VANDALISM.
2. Characterizations and criticisms of a living person should ALWAYS be attributed IN THE TEXT to the cited person and source making the characterization and criticism so that it is not portrayed as a "fact."
3. Deleting properly cited quotes from the subject, Reardon, is vandalism, especially when these are deleted to hide or deemphasize his position in favor of promoting the criticisms of his critics.
4. The "no original research policy" means it is inappropriate to go beyond the information that the critics give and adding in new information, from editors, that says if this and that then this too. An example in some versions of this article is NEW RESEARCH into Pacific Western University, citing sources that say nothing of Reardon but are only about the university, so as to demean the university and by implication to demean Reardon. It is fair to cite that the reporters claim he received his degree from, as quoted Pacific Western which they describe as "unaccredited universty", but beyond that it is new research to dig up dirt on PWU to put into an article about Reardon.
5. It is permissible to add material and try to blend it with existing material to improve the article. Deleting verifiable quotes and bibliographical information about the subject in order to promote the POV that he is a biased, uncaring, pro-life zealot with no real expertise is vandalism and will be reported.
Add if you wish. Reorganize if you feel it will strengthen the article. But do not vandalize the contributions of other editors by deleting factual information. Strider12 ( talk) 05:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
IronAngel's revert today...eliminating much new material...claims it is a revert to "previously agreed upon text." Obviously, since this is a disputed article, it is not agreed upon text.-- Strider12 ( talk) 23:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no wikipedia policy that POV pushing of editors should be allowed to define and insist on a "tenor of the text" which violates NPOV. The tenor of this text is clearly to diminish and attack a living person. Look where the attack on his degree is, right up front, instead of where it belongs as part of the commentary of Mooney. The tenor of this article is simply to argue that Reardon is uneducated, biased, and unrealiable. None of his actual research findings are allowed. And to further this agenda, POV pushers are trying to hide the verfiable fact that his research has been accepted and published in numerous journals and to conceal from readers the breadth of his work. Clearly, a bilbliography of a person's published works properly belongs in a biography. Purging a bibliography is misrepresentation and vandalism. -- Strider12 ( talk) 05:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
It is civil and informed to remind people that deletion of core material is vandalism. If a holocaust denier deleted a list of death camps, that would be vandalism. Deleting the bibliography of a researcher is vandalism. Is MastCell claiming that he deleted it? If not, perhaps MastCell should help remind others not to delete verifiable material. -- Strider12 ( talk) 16:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
MastCell's asserting that full bibliographies are not "generally" listed for other researchers points to a flaw in other biographies, not a rule which justifies deleting the list from this bibliography.-- Strider12 ( talk) 17:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I replaced material that was deleted without cause from this article. The article as currently reads contains both pro and con information on Reardon, just as it should be. It violates POV to remove the citable peer-reviewed contributions that Reardon has made, and the other material which provides NPOV to the article. Wikipedia is not a place for writing propaganda and hit pieces. We should not artificially prop up Reardon, nor should we diminish him. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 07:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
No references were removed. The references section is in tact. What we have tried to do on this Reardon article is to replace old scientific data and consensus with the most up-to-date scientific data and consensus. Part of what may seem to be information that puts Reardon in a poor light is a reflection of the current scientific consensus and data. However, Reardon has also misrepresented his credentials, and has been subject to academic criticism for his methods. These things, unfortunately, are pertinent to any article about Reardon.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Reardon has generally responded to these criticisms with the counter-charge that his critics arguments and motives are themselves tainted by pro-choice biases. In response to Major's commentary regarding his study of psychiatric hospitalization following abortion, Reardon asserts that Major's critique fails to inform readers of her own studies which confirmed that a small portion of women having abortion suffer what Reardon categorizes as post-traumatic stress disorder coinciding with their abortions.[35]
In response to the controversy and challenges presented by Reardon's research, a group of New Zealand researchers undertook a study published in 2006 to test Major's argument that psychological differences between women with a history of abortions and those with no history of abortion can be best explained by more pre-existing psychological disorders among the types of women most likely to undergo an abortion.[36] The team, led by Professor David Fergusson, examined data collected from a longitudinal study of 500 New Zealand women between the age of 15 and 25 years of age. The study found an association between women who had abortions and elevated rates of suicidal behaviors, depression, substance abuse, anxiety, and other mental problems. Moreover, after attempting to explain these differences by examining demographic variables and measures of mental health prior to the women's first pregnancies, they concluded that the difference in subsequent mental health could not be easily explained by causes other than exposure to abortion.[37] In the conclusions section of their paper Fergusson's team criticized the American Psychological Association (APA) for its one sided reviews of abortion complications.[38] The New Zealand study also cites Reardon four times, using his conclusions to draw similar conclusions of their own. However, the authors of the New Zealand study were careful to not draw a causal relationship (as Reardon did) between abortion and mental illness, substance abuse, depression or other factors.[39][40] Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 03:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
Here is some further evidence that the edits that I am requesting should be included, and that Major et el's criticism is not as conclusive as it should be. The following is a e-letter that the CMAJ published in response to Major's article. It contains cites to studies which SUPPORT some of Reardon's claims:
_____________________________________________________________________________
Psychological sequelae following induced abortion 14 October 2003 Previous eLetter Top Leverett L deVeber, MD President, The deVeber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research
Send letter to journal: Re: Psychological sequelae following induced abortion
Email Leverett L deVeber, MD
In response to Dr. Major's article on psychological sequelae following induced abortion, we would like to make the following comments:
While she is to be commended for pointing out the need for more rigorous long-term studies, it is unfortunate that Dr. Major has minimized the psychological and psychiatric problems that may arise following induced abortion. Chapter 14, "Behavioral Outcomes, Suicide, Healing," of Women's Health after Abortion: The Medical and Psychological Evidence, identifies self-destructive behaviours as being more common in post- abortive women than in women who give birth.(1)
Of note is a prestigious Finnish study of the records of almost 600,000 women: it showed a suicide rate among women who aborted nearly six times greater than among women who delivered, and three times the general suicide rate.(2) A Welsh study of 408,00 women found the relative risk of suicide after induced abortion to be 3.25.(3) Other self-destructive behaviours, such as increased substance abuse, attempted suicide, self- mutilation, and eating disorders have been found more commonly in post- abortive women.(4)
In spite of apparent conflicts in the literature and methodological problems including high drop-out rates,(5) it is clear there are serious psychological problems following induced abortion. Indeed Dr. Major found 25-35 per cent of women she sampled were depressed or dissatisfied with their decision to abort.(6)
Evidence of significant post-abortion psychological dysfunction is seen in the large numbers of post-abortive women seeking counselling from organizations such as Project Rachel(7) and The Healing Choice.(8) The National Office for Project Rachel deals with 5,000 cases a year, has trained 4,000 counsellors, all of whom are fully occupied, and knows of twenty-five other counselling programs. The Healing Choice states that at least ten per cent of post-abortive women have problems requiring counselling. If one considers the large numbers of abortions done in the U.S. and Canada every year, should even a small percentage result in post- abortion psychological problems, there is a significant, cumulative public health problem requiring attention.
Doctors have a "continuing duty" as well as an obligation to inform their clients about risks associated with abortion. Prior to the procedure, a woman must be advised of the possibility of mental health problems developing at any time following abortion in addition to other risks she may face such as preterm birth, placenta praevia, and breast cancer.
Sincerely,
L.L. deVeber, MD, FRCP(C) President
Martha Crean Project Leader Women's Health after Abortion
1. Ring-Cassidy E, Gentles I. Women's Health after Abortion: The Medical and Psychological Evidence Toronto: The deVeber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research, 2002, 333 pages. Based on an analytic review of more then 500 books and scientific articles the text is a careful summary of the recent medical evidence of the impact of abortion on women's health.
2. a) Gissler M, Hemminki E, Lonnqvist J. Suicides after pregnancy in Finland 1987-94: register linkage study. BMJ 1996, Dec. 7; 313(7070): 1431-4.
b) Gissler M, Hemminki E, Lonnqvist J. Letters: Suicides after pregnancy-Authors Reply. BMJ 1997 Mar. 22; 314(7084): 902-3.
3. Morgan CL Evans M, Peters JR, Currie C. "Suicides after pregnancy. Mental health may deteriorate as a direct effect of induced abortion." BMJ March 22; 314: 902
4. For example: a) Reardon DC, Ney PG. Abortion and subsequent substance abuse. American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse 2000 Feb.; 26(1):61-75. b) Frank et al., Cocaine use during pregnancy: Prevalence and correlates. Pediatrics 1988 Dec.; 82(6):888-95. c) Mensch B, Kandel DB. Drug use as a risk factor for premarital teen pregnancy and abortion in a national sample of young white women. Demography 1992 Aug.; 29(3):409-29.
5. Soderberg H et al. "Selection bias in a study on how women experience induced abortion" European Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology and Reproductive Biology 77 (1998) pp.67-70.
6. a) Major et al. Psychological responses of women after first trimester abortion" Archives of General Psychiatry Vol. 57, August 2000 pp. 777-784. b) Major, Cozzarelli et al. Women's experiences of and reactions to anti- abortion picketing. Basic and Applied Social Psychology 22(4) pp. 265-275.
7. Project Rachel, National Office of Reconciliation and Healing, Milwaukee, Wis. 53207; or, Box 2400, London ON N6A 4G3.
8. De Puy C and D Dovitch. The Healing Choice: Your Guide to Emotional Recovery After an Abortion. N.Y.: Fireside, 1997.
Conflict of Interest:
None declared
_______________________________________________________________________________
We need to make it clear the Major's criticism is not the end all that some want to pretend. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 03:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
MAST, I WISH YOU WOULD ATTEMPT TO BE A BIT MORE OBJECTIVE. (And then continuing my entire post in caps.) Drawing Emphasis to a particular word or piece of information is not the same as "internet yelling" I take offense at you attempting to categorize my actions in this way. Aren't we supposed to be assuming good faith here?
Wikipedia policy WP:VANDAL describes the deletion of verifiable information as "blanking" -- a form of vandalism.
The reasons given by some editors in this article for removing verifiable information--even such simple and appropriate information as the subject's complete bibliography--are clearly frivolous. The only conceivable purpose for omitting a listing of Reardon's studies is to avoid the clear POV slant of this article that he is a con-artist and a fool.
Because this is an electronic journal, we don't have an obligation to keep the article under a certain word count. Clearly, out of respect to both the subject and all the editors collaborating on this article, the general rule of thumb should be to retain any added material that is verifiable. Clarifications and reorganization of verifiable information is always permissable--and truly in keeping with the goal of collaboration. But simply blanking material that runs counter to a preferred POV is never permissable. That is simply vandalism--or at the very least, crude POV-pushing.
I realize that calling vandalism by its true name is frowned upon by many editors(see Wikipedia:Don't call a spade a spade), but this is an ongoing problem with a number of deletions of material in both this article and post-abortion syndrome, and article in which there was an open discussion of "purging" every study Reardon has authored or co-authored. The effort to conceal his body of research continues even in his biography.
All this should be considered in light of the fact that the growing influence of Wikipedia among web users has caused an increasing number of special interest groups to assign paid staff to the task of being "professional" Wikipedia editors. Their jobs are to monitor and purging articles of verifiable facts and sources of information which conflict with their employers' agendas.
This kind of "blanking" undermines all of Wikipedia and is a disservice to readers who wish to have a copious amount of information available to them, not just the portion which POV-warriors are willing to share.-- Strider12 ( talk) 20:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The last revert was one that was in direct violation of the consensus achieved on this page. Both MastCell and I agreed that in-line citations were appropriate where we added them. Additionally, it was demonstrated that Reardon is a biomedical ethicist. This material was removed with the contention that it was previously agreed upon. This is not correct. Additionally this revert was one of many. WELL OVER 3. WP:3RR. As I have taken additional steps in this matter, I'll not revert until we receive additional input. But as a gesture of good-will I would request that the user who made these unilateral changes self-revert and Discuss so we can truly work toward consensus. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 03:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
I can't keep up with you guys.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 04:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Wait, what exactly am I supposed to revert?-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 04:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I always engage talk pages. (See above and archives). My first reaction to you was that you were attempting to bully me. But, perhaps it was simply inexperience with wikipedia. I will trust that you are editing in good faith.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 07:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
We need to fix the section referencing Pacific Western University (Now: California Miramar University.) It is correct that PWU/CMU is unaccredited. However, the University is approved by California Board of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education to grant degrees. This is commonly referred to as a "State Approved School." http://www.cpec.ca.gov/CollegeGuide/AdvCollegeSearch.asp?InstType=StateAppr
2nd, The blurb says that PWU/CMU does not offer classroom or online instruction. As far as I can tell, the university DOES offer online instruction AND evening classes. It appears that the online program is similar in nature to other Distance Education schools. I am not sure what the evening classes entail. http://www.calmu.edu/main-navigation/admissions/faqs.html
Either way, as currently written the blurb is inaccurate. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 06:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
Ghostmonkey, the United States General Accounting Office lists Pacific Western University as a "diploma mill." In testimony (downloaded here: www.gao.gov/new.items/d04771t.pdf) GAO investigators said:
Moreover, diploma mills and other unaccredited schools modify their billing practices so students can obtain payments for degrees by the federal government. Purporting to be a prospective student, our investigator placed telephone calls to three schools that award academic credits based on life experience and require no classroom instruction: Barrington University (Mobile, Alabama); Lacrosse University (Bay St. Louis, Mississippi); and Pacific Western University (Los Angeles, California). These schools each charge a flat fee for a degree. For example, fees for degrees for domestic students at Pacific Western University are as follows: Bachelor of Science ($2,295); Master’s Degree in Business Administration ($2,395); and PhD ($2,595). School representatives emphasized to our undercover investigator that they are not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis.
Also see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=FzkMEDKflKwC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=%22us+government+accountability+office%22+pacific+western+university&source=web&ots=1wJLiUWtuX&sig=cZD0c1PrRnH0Ah5xXbwlBl7jpTw
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/310/5753/1423a
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2007/08/117_8792.html
--
IronAngelAlice (
talk)
08:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Not at all "agreed." Did you not take the time to read the .pdf from the GAO? It clearly states that Pacific Western University is "not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training." The GAO lists Pacific Western as a "Diploma Mill." -- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:27, 28 December 2007
Furthermore, Chris Mooney writes: "he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction." ( http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0410.mooney.html)-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
See Chris Mooney (also Korea Times, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science magazine). You are out of control, GM.--
IronAngelAlice (
talk)
08:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
No, now the burden of proof is on you. I've established from reputable sources, including the United States United States General Accounting Office, that Pacific Western is a "diploma mill." It is incumbent upon you to establish that Reardon did any coursework.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I certainly can. Chris Mooney already published it. Why are you doing this? It's completely illogical.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The GOA investigation involved schools modify their billing practices so students can obtain payments for degrees by the federal government. That's what the GOA investigates, the waste/theft of Federal money. School representatives emphasized to our undercover investigator that they are not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis.However, representatives of each school told our undercover investigator that they would structure their charges in order to facilitate payment by the federal government. Each agreed to divide the degree fee by the number of courses a student was required to take, thereby creating a series of payments as if a per course fee were charged. All of the school representatives stated that students at their respective schools had secured payment for their degrees by the federal government. My sentence is relevant and necessary to show exactly what the GOA was investigating. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 09:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons
We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space.
Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm".
This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons in other articles. The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material.
If, either as an editor or a subject, you have concerns about biographical material about a living person in Wikipedia, please report your concerns on the BLP noticeboard.
__________________________________________________________
The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics; rather, it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral, in particular, header structure for regions or subsections should reflect important areas to the subject's notability.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
__________________________________________________________
These two points need to be taken into consideration. We need to fix the Critics section, as the article as written contains only criticism and not the paragraph regarding the Fergusson Study and the Reardon Response. This is violative of the policy. I suggest we agree on a consensus edit of the two paragraphs to conform to the guidelines written above. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 08:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
We can re-write these to fit consensus and include them where they were deleted. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 08:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
See the archives. The article was already written by consensus. To ignore criticisms of Reardon would be a mistake considering his fringe positions. I'm warning you now to slow down.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here, and it stems from the a Reardon-centric cosmology. The Fergusson paper didn't "debunk" anything. It was not a "response" to criticism of Reardon, and setting it up as such is a canonical violation of WP:SYN. The Fergusson paper reached a conclusion at odds with that of the APA, and carefully explained why that might be (including discussion of a number of limitations of their study). Presumably, when the APA's new position statement is released it will take Fergusson's research into account; when that statement is released, it will obviously have a major bearing on how things are presented here. However, we shouldn't attempt to pre-empt that evaluation by claiming that Fergusson's research "debunks" prior findings. The problem is that Reardon's arguments are part of a larger debate on "post-abortion syndrome" - a debate where his view is clearly opposed by a large volume of evidence and expert opinion. Giving Reardon the "last word" by citing non-notable blog responses he's made (in apposition to editorials from peer-reviewed journals) unfairly and inaccurately skews our representation of that debate. Reardon's position is represented here, in his own words, at length. Most independent, reliable secondary source coverage of Reardon and his research is mildly to moderately critical. That's a fact - we didn't create these sources, but we need to base the article on them. MastCell Talk 23:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
On Reardon's biography page on The Elliot Institute site, there is a photograph, described as a "media photo." Does this imply that it is a publicity photo intended for use in the media, and, could we thus use it to illustrate this article under such a fair use rationale? - Severa ( !!!) 16:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The article claimed that the authors of the NZ study had set out to disprove Reardon's findings. In fact none of the 2 reliable sources support this claim. One of them says that the researchers has expectations which turned out to be not true. But this is rather different from saying they set out to disprove anything. In fact, the references support the idea that their primary goal was to do high quality research in this area which they found lacking Nil Einne 06:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
RESPONSE
The introduction and conclusion of Fergesson's paper includes a summary of Reardon's studies and Brenda Major's challenge that the findings would be explained away by preexisting psychological factors. In the paper, but more explicitly in his interviews, Fergusson indicates that it was his and this teams expectation that their analysis would produce results that would support Major's hypothesis rather than Reardon's. For example, in the cited interview Abortion increases mental health risk: study Fergusson states: "We were indeed surprised by the results. Our expectation was that we would find that young women who had abortions had higher rates, but that was due to selection factors, that is the background of young women predisposed them both to abortion and to mental health problems, and we found that that was not in fact the case."
Given Fergusson's insistance that his ideological stand was in line with Majors, being pro-choice, it is not an exaggeration to say that he hoped his data would settle the debate between Reardon and Major by "disproving" Reardon's hypothesis, or conversely, proving Major's hypothesis. The goal of "disproving" a wrong hypothesis is not biased, it's good science. The use of the word "disprove" does not diminish the integrity of Fergusson's intent to do "high quality research."
In any event, to clarify Fergusson's effort to test both Reardon and Major's hypotheses, I rephrased the sentence to read: "In response to the controversy and challenges presented by Reardon's research, a group of New Zealand researchers recently undertook a study to test Major's argument that psychological differences between women with a history of abortions and those with no history of abortion can be best explained by more pre-existing psychological disorders among the types of women most likely to undergo an abortion." It's a long sentence, but accurate and avoids the phrase "disprove"
Having fixed these objections, I'm removing the neutrality concern. (See also Response to NPOV)
POINT OF COMMENT
I think all of this business about the New Zealand article should be moved to a section titled New Zealand article. For instance, nobody knows who Fergusson is, and this is only tangentially related to the topic of a biography of David Reardon. This entire description of what did or did not happen with the New Zealand situation deserves to be removed from the main article and placed into a section. Dbackeberg 03:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I added the NPOV check because some of the sources used need to be scrutinsed carefully. One of them in particular afterabortion which is run by the Eliot Institute the organisation which David Reardon works for, seems highly dubious to me and someone needs to check it's usage in each instance is appropriate. It's probably fine for mentioning David's POV but shouldn't generally be used for anything else. I removed one usage where it was unneeded but I strongly suspect other some instances need to be removed too. For example, it's used to support the claim that the NZ team 'scolded' the APA. A better reference probably needs to be found for this or it should be removed Nil Einne 06:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
RESPONSE
I clarified reference as per Nil Einne's request, pointing to the Washington Times article which quotes Fergusson's paper. The best citation is to Fergusson's article itself, but it is not readily available online without a subscription.
Regarding Nil's general objection to links to afterabortion.info, the pages cited all include citations to any research published in peer reviewed journals. Again, many of these journal articles are not readily available without subscription -- and are therefore difficult for the average WIKIPEDIA user to check. I see no reason why articles from the Elliot Institute website should be classified as more "dubious" than articles from the Washington Times, the Washington Monthly, or Brenda Major's commentary in CMAJ.
COUNTER The Washington Times links aren't working anymore. I can't tell if the language in the section near the Washington Times section is a direct quote of the article, a direct quote of the actual research, or the invention of the Wikipedia author who wrote this section. Regardless, the flow of the article is bad. If there is a need for a criticism, and a response, and a response to the response, these should be broken out of the main article and put into a section for easier reading. Dbackeberg 03:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a criticism section at the bottom of the page, and put some criticisms into this area. The article as it stood was more of a treatise than a wikipedia article, and is in substantial need of revision. I also revised some strong affirmative language about the validity of a certain study that I feel wasn't actually claimed by the description of the study, and therefore the article didn't match what was said in the description of the study. I think the best thing for the article would be to add a biography section near the top of the page, ideally with a picture, and anything else about the subject's credential's beside the already-criticized Ph.D. in bioethics. Dbackeberg 04:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I cut this, due to NPOV and lack of citation:
The findings were so unexpected that in the conclusions section of their paper Fergusson's team criticized the American Psychological Association (APA) for its one sided reviews of abortion complications [1] and specifically for the APA's failure to cite and discuss the findings of researchers like Reardon. Following media coverage of this criticism, the APA withdrew a position paper on abortion from their website [2] and has created a new task force to report on the mental health effects of abortion. [3] In response to Fergusson's criticisms, an APA spokesperson stated that Fergusson's research would have no effect on the APA's official stand on abortion because: "To pro-choice advocates, mental health effects are not relevant to the legal context of arguments to restrict access to abortion." [4]
end-snip
The only sources for this are the Washington Times, and both articles cited here aren't available anymore. Even if a similar source could be found, the link title for these sections is entitled "commentary", and these comments are more opinion about what a study said than statistical figures drawn from the study, or at least from the abstract of the study. For instance, an opposing commentary would point out the study called for further study, that the sample size was only 500 women, that late teenage years are the times that many mental illnesses are first detected, and the big one: that association is not the same as correlation. So I cut that paragraph, as the important thing about the study was the numbers and the discovery of an association between abortion and mental illness among the patients in the study. Dbackeberg 04:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Criticisms should be found in published statements of experts in the field.
An editor added a number of his or her own novel arguments attacking the credibility of Reardon and Coleman which are not based in any referenced criticism of an expert...or even a journalist. As a reference work, this section of the article is supposed to reflect the criticisms of experts, such as Brenda Major, whose criticms are rightly summarized here. This is not the place for non-expert Wikipedia commentators to post "here's another agument against Reardon" arguments.
For example, following the notice that Reardon has a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics, the editor adds several sentences arguing that it is therefore misleading for Reardon to coauthor articles related to the psychology as if this implies he is a psychologists. Besides the fact that these articles include coauthors who are psychologists, it is very common for journal articles to be coauthored by parties whoh are not experts in the particular branch of knowledge covered by the journal. The most obvious example is that statisticians are coauthors of studies in every field of research even though they may have no expertise in medicine, chemistry, or psychology. Peer review journals do not judge the degrees or universities of contributors....the work must stand on its own merits in terms of the quality of data and methodology. This is why even Brenda Major has not attacked Reardon's credentials...only his perceived anti-abortion bias...because the issue of credentials are not a strong argument in the world of peer reviewed research.
Put another way...academics who read peer reviewed papers regularly know that the actual field of training and expertise of any author or coauthor should not be presumed just from the topic of the paper. That's a very rookie mistake. Unless there is evidence that Reardon has beed describing himself as a psychologist, the argument that some people may assume that he is a psychologist is as silly as the claim that any biomedical ethicist who publishes papers on euthanasia is likely to be perceived as an anesthesiolgist.
This or another editor also inserted a paragraph criticizing Coleman...who is not even a subject of this article except incidentally being "guilty by association" with Reardon as a coauthor. These arguments assert that since Coleman has served as an expert witness in legal cases she too is "biased" and must be motovated by a desire to restrict abortion rights. Again, this (1) has nothing to do with an article on Reardon and (2) is an uncited criticism which has not been made by experts in the field but only by a Wikipedia contributor. It also infers a whole lot about Coleman and her motivations and even about the uncited cases in which she was an expert. The fact that she probably was paid over $300 per hour as an expert may be sufficient motivation for anyone to testify about the facts as they see them. But that too is irrelevent.
Finally, in the same section I removed a paragraph about the APA's denial that post-abortion syndrome exists because this is not an article about post-abortion syndrome, where such a paragraph rightly belongs. Moreover, if you look at Reardon's articles, he avoids the term "post-abortion syndrome" and but prefers to speak more generally of specific symptoms rather than a set "syndrome" consisting of a complete set of symptoms. So this paragraph is also out of place and appears to be advocating a point of view since it is not even placed in context of a position that Reardon is known to advocate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.157.173.2 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous 131.216.41.16 has repeatedly inserted the following highly perjotative introductory paragraph to this biography.
David C Reardon, is a pro-life activist,[1][2] who received his degree in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school.[3][4] Reardon is the director of the on-line Elliot Institute. The institute has no buildings or facilities.[5]
Objections:
1. The term "pro-life activist" is a label, not a profession. Since the citations do document that Reardon describes himself as a "pro-life activist" it is inappropriate to apply this potentially perjotive term to him as if it were a fact rather than an opinion. For example the phrase "pro-life activist" implies that Reardon has been involved in sit-ins, ralleys, or at least political activism. But the record indicates no activism in the form of rallys or sit-ins and that the only legislation Reardon has advocated is legislation that would help women who are at higher risk of suffering complications to abortion or are at risk of being pressured into unwanted abortions. In his book Making Abortion Rare, he appears to argue on a woman centered rather than fetus centered argument against abortion, even proposing a redefinition of "anti-abortion" in the sense of "anti-this-unsafe-medical-procedure" as a separate argument about abortion as distinct from the pro-life and pro-choice arguments.
2. Criticism of the source of Reardon's degree is properly placed and more completely discussed elsewhere. The phrase "correspondence school" is perjotive and even "unaccredited" needs to be placed into a context that identifies accreditating sources. As noted in the corrected article, while Pacific Western University is not accredited by one of the members of the Council for Higher Education Accreditation it is a licensed university and the degrees it issues have proper legal standing. One can argue about the quality of his higher education, but not that he has a degree from an institution authorized to grant Ph.D.s. Also, as biographies do not normally begin with identifying the source of one's degree with a transtion into a discussion of the school's quality this is totally out of place. It is clearly just thrown in here to advance a POV intended to frontload the biography with criticsms of the subject.
3. The claim that "The institute has no buildings or facilities" is also perjotive and unsupported by the citation. First, this article is about Reardon, not the Elliot Institute. Second, the citation simply does not support the statement or address the facilities rented or owned by the Elliot Institute in any way. Thirdly, whether or not the Elliot Institute owns any buildings is irrelevant. But if one calls the office, they clearly have an office (possibly rented) and staff, and "facilities" in the form of equipment typical of offices.
4. All of these criticims also apply to 131.216.41.16's biased attempt to describe the Elliot Institute as nothing more than an "online" entity. That the Elliot Institute has a significant online presence does not mean that is the "only" form of it's functioning as it is clearly a legal entity incorporated in the state of Illinois.
In short, the edits of 131.216.41.16 do not contribute facts regarding the subject, David Reardon, but are POV efforts to dismiss him, his degree, and the Elliot Institute in the very first sentence of the biography. The valid issue surrounding his degree from a non-accredited institution is properly placed in the criticims section and should be presented in a non-perjotive fashion. Strider12 16:51, 9 November 2007
1. Untrue. Ues of the term "pro-life" on the Elliot Institute's website does not constitute a claim or admission that Reardon is a "pro-life activist." Give the exact citation and quote to support your claim that he describes himself as a "pro-life activist".
2. Untrue. Give a citation from Pacific Western University, or Reardon, describing it as an "unaccredited correspondence school" All schools involve correspondence...that's the nature of communication...and there are many accredited "correspondence" schools.
3. Untrue ... or at least undocumented by the page you cite. Give the citation to exact page and a quote from the website. You can't just point to a whole website and say the evidence is in there somewhere when the page you link to says nothing to the point you claim.
4. I don't even know what you mean by "it is not a research facility." Do you mean they don't have a chemical laboratory or neutrino accelerator? Clearly Reardon and the Elliot Institute have conducted research that has been published in peer reviewed medical journals, ergo they do research. If you cannot see the bias in your attacks on Reardon and the Elliot Institute, your extreme POV has muddled your ability to be objective. The fact that you keep posting these characterizing and belittling "corrections" without any factual support for them underscores that you are trying to advance an agenda. — Strider12 16:51, 12 November 2007
Anonymous 131.216.41.16 continues to post a strongly POV opening paragraph to this biography and is ignoring the basic distinctions discussed in my first explanation of why his POV opening paragraph is inappropriate.
Firstly, this bio is about Reardon, not the Elliot Institute or Pacific Western University. If these affiliations are to be discussed, it should not be in the opening paragraph.
Secondly, an institution may have different views and purposes than an individual. You cannot conflate information about the Elloit Institute with a biography about Reardon but must say, for example, "Reardon works for the Elliot Institute which has expressed support for pro-life views." avoiding the perjotive phrase "pro-life activists", for example. It is not "Reardon's Institute."
A unbiased biography should not label someone an "activist" unless he or she labels himself that. That Reardon has pro-life views is not in dispute, the issue is whether this is the defining characteristic of this man. As noted elsewhere, this is certainly a label that he would deny as he has repeatedly asserted that his views are an attempt to define an ethic of medical proactice that respects both pro-woman and pro-life views. (See Making Abortion Rare) And as noted above, there is evidence that he has been a protestor -- which is what most people assocaite with an "activist." As a well published researcher, Reardon is at least obstensibly an academic involved in the discussion of ideas. One is free to argue otherwise, but that should be in the criticims section...not the first paragraph.
This anonymous editor should read the Wikipedia section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#A_simple_formulation to see how it is proper to raise the assertion and discuss the claim that Reardon is a "pro-life activist." Following that principle is the best way to raise questions about Reardon's neutrality / authority on the abortion issue. Others have already followed this formulation rule as seen in the discussion of Brenda Major's criticisms of Reardon's work.
This anonymous editor's assertion above that since the Elliot Institute has offices in Springfield, IL and St. Charles, MO, "This shows the Institute does not currently have a research facility. A research facility includes libraries (the kind with books), and/or scientific laboratories" is patently absurd. That Reardon engages in research and has published research is indisputable -- look his studies up on PubMed! The editor's absurd definition of a "research facility" is nonsensical and has no place in this biography.
Finally, the Elliot Institute's website devoted to abortion issues, www.afterabortion.info, remains up and has hundreds of pages STILL devoted to abortion issues. While I haven't done a page by page comparison, all the pages I'm familiar with are still on the website. This critic's charge that the Elliot Institute has changed it's website is simply bizarre. Websites are constantly being changed, so what is your point!? And the author doesn't even site particular pages that have been changed. Pointing to pages that indicate that the Elliot Institute or even Reardon supports pro-life views still fails to justify labeling either as a "pro-life activist." A more neutral form would be that "Reardon supports a pro-life viewpoint" or "supports pro-life laws," etc. Still, these indications of his orientation on the abortion issue, which are prefectly fair, do not belong in the first paragraph. Strider12 20:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Glad to see a little progress. As you are concerned about the Ph.D., I also propose removing the designation from the first line, simply giving his name. That eliminates giving Reardon what is arguably undue credence in the first line of the biography. It avoids also your rather controversial assertion that you or anyone should be in charge of determining what constitutes "vetted academic credentials." In most universities, publications matter more than the source of one's degree. ("Publish or perish") Output is more critical than background. That is why I consider criticisms of where Reardon got his degree, or "degree" if you prefer, really a red herring. His work has been published in many top medical journals, therefore publishers and peer reviewers in the academic community consider his work to be up to par with all the other authors they accept.
Clearly the Pacific Western controversy is deserving discussion, but as provided by Wikipedia rules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#A_simple_formulation it should only be discussed in a form in which you are discussing the Mooney article which raises the question and concern. Actually, unless you can find a source where Reardon discusses that he has a degree from Pacific Western University, Mooney's report may not even be correct... but let's go ahead and assume it is.
As pointed out in Wikipedia section you have a right to raise controversies but only by means of citing a verifiable source of the person raising the controversy.
Basic rule for editing: You should not insert your own arguments...you need to find some reasonably credible source outside Wikipedia who has raised these arguments (like Mooney) and cite his criticisms. I've done this in the appropriate section for criticisms.
This applies to your Elliot Institute inference. But since I know it is important to you, I also added the Elliot Institute argument you made and clarified the position on the cited page to the criticms section. But really this should also be referenced to some other publication of someone criticizing Reardon and the Elliot Institute for a pro-life bias and raising the issue that this anti-human engineering proposal is evidence of a pro-life bias.
Again, my main objection to your edits is that you are trying to front load three criticims into the first paragraph which are your arguments and inferences which fork into dual criticims of Reardon and Pacific Western and Reardon and the Elliot Institute. There is room for raising these issues, but they should be dealt with in the body of the article, not the first paragraph whcih should be limited to Reardon.
Your new material asserts that Reardon claims to have had his degree from Pacific Western University but you have no citation from Reardon for this. The only claim for this is from Mooney.
The status of Pacific Western is unrelated to this biography as we have no idea when or if Reardon received his degree there.
Why should there be a reference to Reardon as a psychologist?
Your assertions and inferances are not contributing to a factual report and your attempt to front load the article with as many negatives as you can imagine is disruptive to the effort of those other editors, such as myself, who are attempting to create a NPOV article which includes appropriate places (two in this case!) for raising criticims that have been directed at Reardon. As stated above, as an editor it is your obligation to find people who have raised these criticims and to site THEM rather than to insert your own criticims presented as facts.
2. These articles assert he has a degree from Pacific Western, but do not state that Reardon told them this was so. And if you believe it is so, it should not be stated as if this is just what "Reardon claims." You are inserting doubt to discredit...which is the whole problem with your edits...they are all geared to discredit Reardon in the first paragraph.
3. You are the one who wrote "::2. I don't see any mention of Reardon being a psychologist/" here in the discussion section... a few paragraphs above.
4. You bias is screaming out.
Here is a page about Reardon from on a Pro-Life forum. Several of the posters question his qualifications. Obviously these pro-life pages do not meet the standard for citation within the David Reardon article; however, it shows that even those with a seemingly pro-life "bias" question Reardon's qualifications. It also seems to point to the fact that David Reardon has been referring to himself as a Dr. in many pro-life forums (both in person and on-line). What "Laura" writes in her post is the interesting part: http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/07/weekend_reads_1.html)-- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 04:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Last, let's try to avoid a revert war by not removing factual, cited information without discussing it on the talk page first. -- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 19:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Your introduction is biased, a rambling attack on the Elliot Institute and Pacific Western, and has been thoroughly discussed above and you continue to ignore my suggestions that these points should be confined to the sections relative to the criticims of Reardon and cited to sources other than your own inferences. I'm tired with arguing with you about it and will continue to revert the introduction to an unbaised format without further arguements with you. If you can't see the bias in your statements you are an ideologue who has lost all sense of objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
-- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 23:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Stop repeating your arguments and carefully read the sources you cite. Show me the link and give an exact quote from the Elliot Institute web site saying Reardon claims to have a degree form PWU.
Also, read carefully and report carefully what Mooney writes. Mooney does not report that "Reardon claims to have received a Ph.D..." etc. Mooney reports that Reardon does have a degree from PWU but he does so without any citation or confirmation as to where he got this information. He never says he interviewed Reardon and it is evident that he probably did not, but instead just read some articles by or about Reardon from which he formulated his attack piece. You're free to quote Mooney's attacks, as per Wikipedia's recommendations for raising controversy by quoting others, but you should not create your own attacks and you should closely track or quote exactly what Mooney said without elaborations which even Mooney might reject as over the top inferences.
Also, the New York Times article is from 1994. It does not mention Reardon, and you have no idea when Reardon received his degree from PWU, and an attempt to close PWU was apparantly rejected by the courts since it stayed in existence and just recently changed its name...see Pacific Western University. Perhaps after being investigated by the state, PWU improved its program to meet state standards and Reardon received a "good" degree, according to California, even if an unaccredited degree.
Stick to the facts relevent to Reardon. If you want to attack PWU, put your New York Times article on the PWU page. Strider12 ( talk) 04:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Anon 131.216.41.16 claim that "the Elliot Institute has no buildings or facilities, and is not a research facililty" is unverfied and ludicrous. Why not just have an opening paragraph that reads: "David Reardon is a flim-flam artist who pretends to work with the Elliot Institute, which is a meaningless shell, and has somehow convinced dozens of peer reviewed journals to publish his nonsense." Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 15:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Your personal definition of an "Institute" is irrelevent as is your petty and unsupported statement that "The Elliot Institute has no buildings or facilities, and is not a research facililty." That it is looking for funding is also irrelevent to this biography -- and is typical of all institutions.
Look up the Wikipedia definiton for institute. Also, I have to laugh, I looked at your link to support your "they have no building" claim, http://www.elliotinstitute.org/coalition.htm, and see that you have no understanding of the term "coalition building" as used on that page. Ha Ha Ha! This page doesn't say thay have no buildings or offfices or libraries! It says they are working to build (verb) a coalition (noun) by inviting other groups and organizations to join the effort of banning human engineering and that they hope or intend that once this coalition is built to form a new coalition organization rather than have the Elliot Institute serve as the ongoing organizing force behind their effort. You cite this as supporting the idea that they are raising funds for a "Coaliton Building"! You're hilarious...and wrong as usual. Strider12 ( talk) 18:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
You need a better dictionary. All of the following definitions of Institute are nouns (see
http://www.answers.com/topic/institute):
1. Something instituted, especially an authoritative rule or precedent.
2. A digest of the principles or rudiments of a particular subject, especially a legal abstract.
3. An organization founded to promote a cause: a cancer research institute. (Maybe as anogther example, A POST-ABORTION RESEARCH INSTITUTE!)
4. An educational institution, especially one for the instruction of technical subjects.
5. The building or buildings housing such an institution.
6. A usually short, intensive workshop or seminar on a specific subject.
To argue that the Elliot Institue is not a "real institute" because it doesn't have (you claim without support) buildings lacks even minimum level of credibility. Besides, what does it matter what the Elliot Institute's real estate holdings are?
Your argument about buildings and your immediate attack on PWU actually come across as petty, silly, and loaded with a desire to immediately bias readers against Reardon with ad hominum and guilt by association attacks.
You are actually weakening your arguments in the way you present them. Don't try to front load the article with attacks, especially abbreviated ones that digress off onto attacks on PWU's credibility and the Elliot Institute.
Please stop distorting what should be a simple introduction which explains that Reardon has come to be of some note because of the studies he has published related to a controversial topic, abortion, which has resulted in additional controversy around Reardon himself. There is plenty of space in the body to present criticims of Reardon and the Elliot Institute by citing facts and sources of those who have raised these criticims. But even then, do so without your inferences--no matter how solid you think them to be. See Wiki policy on "no original research" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research which encompasses what you are doing when you say here's fact one, here's fact two, therefore this is my summary of the meaning of these facts (or in your case, allegations by third parties--such as Mooney).
I'm not your enemy. You can find proper ways to present the facts you feel are pertinent, but I won't stand by and let you distort the facts with inferences and deducations of your own or to front load the article with non sequiters.
Find someone to read what you are writing who is not quite as passionately hostile to Reardon who can help you moderate your approach. Strider12 ( talk) 18:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
...Reardon founded his own quasi-academic think tank, the Elliot Institute for Social Sciences Research. At the time, Reardon had a background in electronic engineering; he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction.
-- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 21:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I just finished listening to the audio of Reardon's speech. He seems a genuinely compassionate man. It is worth listening to, and is located here: http://www.nprcouncil.org/radio/5drdavidreardon.ram . -- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 00:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Last, who Emily Balezon is related to does not belong in an article about David Reardon. If you want to make the case that what Balezon writes is incorrect, please do so on the talk pages. But it is misleading to imply that because Betty Friedan is Balezon's cousin, Balezon is an activist like Friedan was. This section should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 21:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
"Pro-life" is the term by which the pro-life movement identifies itself so it isn't in any way pejorative — a pejorative term for "pro-life" would be "anti-choice." I understand that the term "activist" carries with it an implication of involvement in grassroots-level advocacy like vigils, demonstrations, or handing out leaflets, so perhaps a more general term like "advocate" would be appropriate. The fact that Reardon is pro-life is supported by statements he has made in the past, particularly during this interview, and I definitely think it is worth noting somewhere in the article. I'm just not certain where.
I think it is redundant to cover the issue of whether Pacific Western University is accredited or unaccredited in the introduction when it is already handled elsewhere in the article (see John Gray (U.S. author) for a similar example). - Severa ( !!!) 22:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, you've made quite a few more edits and indeed left some things out. How long should we wait to include them back? The following are my concerns:
According to the Elliot Institute website, Reardon "is a frequent guest on Christian radio and Christian television talk shows and has been a frequently invited speaker state and national conventions for crisis pregnancy centers and pro-life organizations" and "Dr. Reardon's three-pronged strategy for ending abortion by helping women has already been adopted by many pro-life organizations at the local, state, and national levels. It appears certain that the popularity of this new compassionate approach to the abortion conflict will continue to grow and become a permanent part of pro-life activities." [5] David Reardon has also addressed the National Right to Life Committee convention in 1998, where he advocated the need to minister to women who have had, and that abortion leads to " Post Traumatic Stress Disorder." [6] [7]
-- 70.173.47.6 ( talk) 03:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I would also like to add that within any explanation of the Elliot Institute, the fact that it is a pro-life advocacy organization needs to be made clear.
Also, the fact that Reardon has a Ph.D. from what is commonly termed a "degree mill" is not an "academic criticism." However, it is a valid criticism mentioned in at least two of our cited references. Therefore, I'm going to add it as a special section. -- 131.216.41.16 ( talk) 19:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous 131 continues to insert inferences and inappropriately cited material just for the sake of attacking Reardon. To whit:
1. Citation 5 does not refer to Pacific Western University. Nor does Mooney report that he ever interviewed Reardon.
2. The criticism is raised by Mooney and should be cited as one raised by Mooney.
3. The New York Times article describes an investigation and attempt to close, not that it was closed.
4. Wikipedia reports in a disputed article that Pacific Western University has been a licensed degree granting school in two states, California and Hawaii, and that the California school is still operating (and licensed to grant degrees) but is now operating under the name California Miramar University.
5. It is unknown when Reardon received his degree, whether before or after controversies arose in California leading to the investigations. Nor is there any evidence that he did not complete program work appropriate to his degree.
This is all a guilt by association argument. His research, published in peer reviewed journals, and in collaboration with a number of other Ph.D's and M.D.'s who may have done much or most of the research, stands on it's own merit.
It is fair to point out that Mooney has raised this criticism, but it is not appropriate -- and is a violation Wikipedia's "no new research" policy to try to insert additonal arguments against PWU into an article about Reardon in an effort to undermine Reardon. Mooney's allegations tell the story and it is a fact that Mooney has made these allegations.
Therefore I have put this section as follows:
The link to Pacific Western University is sufficient to lead the reader to learn more about the PWU controversy if they desire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 15:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted a series of edits by User:Strider12 for the following reasons:
I hope that sheds some light on the specific issues behind my reversion. MastCell Talk 06:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Disagree on all counts. All newspaper articles are the works of a journalist, columnist, who may or may not be successful in eliminating their own POV. All three of the media articles cited, including the Boston Globe, have no internal evidence to support the idea that the writers ever even interviewed Reardon. That they "characterize" Reardon as wanting to "impose strict bans on abortion" is their own interpretation of the matter. It is well known, and accepted, that journalists and editors will work for a "slant" in their stories that make them more compelling. You are free to report the slant, but do not charcterize it as "fact." You are naive if you think that PBS did not mine quotes for their own end, and once again are trying to claim that "a reliable second source" trumps everything which comes from "biased pro-life sources."
All of Reardon's studies cited in here are also peer reviewed articls, therefore Grimes' and Reardon's articles should be treated with equal weight. It is very appropriate to list Grime's credentials and to site transcripts from a federal case regarding his work as an abortion provider and abortion activist. That I linked to a pro-life site that has the document is not inappropriate, but feel free to replace it with a link to a federal court archive if you can find it. Since the whole field of abortion and mental health is very controversial topic and both sides will have opinions, and people like Fergusson (a pro-choice atheist who has done the best longitudinal study on this issue) are siding with Reardon rather than the abortion advocacy groups. It is inappropriate for you to decide which of those in this controversy is right and to hide attributions and criticisms for that side of the debate, and to argue that Reardon and anyone else who sides with him is "biased", out of touch with "the real experts" and to pretend that journalists at papers which regularly publish editorials in favor of abortion are "reliable" "neutral" sources, while every source that supports Reardon's views should be dismissed or treated with suspicion.
One of the weakness of the pro-abort's position, which continues to exist in this article, is that there is a lot of hand waving and ad hominum attacks on Reardon himself, but no discussion of the actual statistics he has published. When you read Majors' CMAJ, editorial for example, doesn't dispute the actual statistics reported by Reardon but is instead a long explanation about her worry that people might interpret these findings as a straight forward causal link rather than as an entirely incidental phenomena, as she does.
I'm reverting to a better version of the article. Please try not to delete any of the material I have added. Also, the full bibliography is appropriate and should not be remvoed. Feel free to insert new material in an appropropriate place, but purging material is inappropriate. And I will continue to insert appropriate material citing who said what and what their affiliations are. Strider12 19:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Give me a listing of the peer reviewed articles which specify the "numerous criticisms of Reardon's methodology" other than Brenda Major CMJ article. All the rest are letters to the editor (which are not peer reviewed for content, such as the BMJ" or from reporters who never interviewed Reardon and have no expertise in research methodology in general or post-abortion research specifically. Most of the criticims are ad hominum or general dismissals. Also, please give an exact quote of Grimes discussing Reardon's studies (as the cite given does not appear to suggest that Grimes--an obstetrisian--conducted a lit review of mental health studies or Reardon in particular, but instead appeared to simply reiterate the standard claim without addressing the research published since 2000.
Your position that one should ignore primary sources and instead quote only from "reliable secondary sources" --- combined with your provision that all sources from those with a pro-life view are "unreliable" (such as court transcripts available from Priests for Life" --- is simply unsupported by any Wikipedia policy.
Regarding Fergusson's second study, if you read the study, not just the abstract, you will better understand the meaning of what is said in the abstract: "Adjustment for confounding factors indicated that most of these differences were explained by family, social and educational characteristics that were present prior to pregnancy." In other words, all of the possible benefits turn out to be more related to factors other than abortion. So your statement "he found that young women who had abortions had significantly better psychosocial outcomes than those who carried their pregnancies to term" is a misrepresentation -- a common problem. What you CAN properly say is that he found that "even after adjustment for confounding factors, young women who had abortions had higher levels of subsequent educational achievement than those who became pregnant but did not have abortions." In other words, continued education was the only postive factor significantly associated with abortion. But even that positive finding is unlikely to "chalk one up for abortion" since those who had abortions were just more likely to finish high school or college compared to those who had their babies and took time off from school to be with their children. This is NOT the same as saying they had "significantly better psychosocial outcomes" -- but it is the type of overgeneralization typical of Russo, Major, and Stotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC) [User:Strider12|Strider12]] 22:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they found educational advantages...only...so you should report in the article ONLY educational advantages and not misrepresent broader mental health benefits which they reported were NOT statistically attributable to abortion.
The fact that these reporters haven't interviewed Reardon, which I haven't even tried to put into the article, is clearly pertinent to how the article should be presented as it underscores that their characterizations of his positions are not his own self description but are their characterizations...and should therefore be attributed to them.
Grimes statement is his own, and no more authoratitive then any other statement in a peer reviewed journal. And the article isn't even primarily about mental health nor does it pretend to be a complete review (such as the APA task force is now undertaking). Nor was the article commissioned by Annals, nor should it be suggested that they "stand behind" it as the last word, nor does it represent the official position of any expert body other than Grimes and his co-author. The article you cite is just a overview for internists from an aging abortionist trying to encourage other doctors to join the club. Of course he will say there are no psychiatric problems, it's what the abortion industry has been saying for thirty years, but that doesn't make it a fact .... nor even the opinion of the majority of physicians, who since most have not studied the issue or the recent glut of studies since 20000, really isn't worth much anyway. I'll grant that the opinion of the expected new APA task force report will at least have the merit of being informed by a review of the literature.
This is a complex and controversial issue. Why do you feel a need to purge my clarifications of who says what, unless it is because you are trying to make the opinions of the "experts" you prefer sound like objective facts?
Is your case so weak that you can't just accept the importance of attributing generalizations about Reardon or post-abortion mental health to the people making them? (Our dispute about referencing the statement to the Boston Globe reporter, being another example.) Why resist what are clearly appropriate clarifications about who says this about Reardon and who says what about the issue of abortion maladjustments? I don't take out any of the points of controversy you are trying to insert, I'm just attributing them to who said them. Strider12 19:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
See below. Reardon is an expert in the field as verified by numerous peer reviewed journals. Your statement that "he has no legitimacy in the scientific community" is simply false. At best you can cite a number of scientists--Major, Russo and Stotland--who are all on record as opposing abortion regulations arguing that he overstates his evidence and is working to stop abortion. That does not consitute the views of "the scientific community" much less "scientific consensus." See the editors of the CMAJ's editorial. Consider also that Reardon has co-authored his studies with a half dozen or more other Ph.D.'s and M.D.'s who are part of the scientific community. Together with dozens of peer reviewers who have examined his work, they affirm that he is an expert. Your arguments regarding PAS have no place here as there are no cites that Reardon even advocates for that definition.
Afterabortion.org material is the official website for the Elliot Institute, run by Reardon, and is a reputable source precisely because Wikipedia policy also provides that:
It is certainly fair, however, to require that the TEXT of the article should include mention that what is presented is from Reardon or the Elliot Institute (if not attributed to Reardon on the web page) since they are both accused of bias. Editors should not PURGE information from experts, like Reardon, simply because others have accused them of bias. Simply make sure that the information on both sides is attributed (in the text, not just the foontnotes) to the persons making the charges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 14:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy on reliable sources states that
1. From this it follows that all of the studies published in peer reviewed journals in which Reardon is lead or co-author should be treated as reliable sources and should be included in any "weighting of viewpoints." Editors in the purging campaign who have decided to eliminate peer reviewed articles simply because they are associated with Reardon are simply not justified in treating these works as unreliable.
2. As Reardon is clearly an established expert in this field, having published dozens of studies in peer reviewed journals, it follows that the material he publishes through the Elliot Institute must also be accepted as reliable (at least in reporting a view of some experts) since Wikipedia policy also provides that:
In other words, numerous third-party peer reviewed journals (including both editors and reviewers) have already verified the reliability of Reardon as a researcher and have accepted him as an expert in his field. In addition, Reardon is one of many scientists who are publishing articles showing links between abortion and mental health problems (including, Coleman, Fergusson, Gissler, Rue, Shuping and others). As an established expert in this field, material published by the Elliot Institute, of which he is the director, is also "relevent," especially when attributed to him.
3. Wikipedia policy also states that "Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text." In other words, the text, not just the footnote, should attribute who says what. This is especially important given the contentious nature of post-abortion issues and the fact that the "sources" (those on either side of this debate) appear to disagree on nearly everything. Both sides accuse the individual researchers and reporters covering this issue of bias. Indeed, we editors are accusing each other of POV bias in the posts for this article. Since we cannot eliminate everyone's bias, we should carefully identify who is saying what so any bias, generalization, or inference is properly attributed to the source.
Thus, we should accept as a foregone conclusion that everyone who cares enough about this issue to write about it has a POV which colors their word choices and judgments regarding the evidence for or against the "post-abortion syndrome" theory.
Therefore, in keeping with Wikipedia policy, the editors of this article should be careful to ATTRIBUTE IN THE TEXT any generalizations about the research or individuals (such as media characterizations of Reardon) to the individual authors who have published these views. Editors should not declare as a "fact" that research showing higher rates of psychiatric admissions following abortion (Reardon, CMAJ) are wrong. Good editors will instead meticulously cite and name the person who criticizes a particular study (for example, Major CMAJ) and QUOTE her comments while carefully avoiding any embellishment or inferences. Strider12 ( talk) 16:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, before the article ends up protected - I think the only way this will get worked out is if we take issues one at a time. It's impossible to have a dialog by alternating 40kb posts addressing dozens of issues at a time, accompanied by edits which insert many disputed edits simultaneously. Let's start with the lead. Strider12 has continually removed mention from the lead that Reardon is a pro-life adovcate in favor of strict barriers to abortion. I believe this is well-documented in reliable sources, including by Reardon himself, and an essential and notable part of his biography, without which any contextualization is incomplete. His role as an advocate is at least as notable as his role as a researcher, and this is documented by reliable sources. WP:LEAD indicates that all notable sapects of the subject should be covered in the lead. Could Strider12 explain why s/he feels the lead should not make mention of Reardon's pro-life advocacy? MastCell Talk 17:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay. First, I think it unnecessary to load the first paragraph with "context" regarding how others perceive his pro-life and political views. These can and should be dealt with more thoroughly in the main body. of the article. While there have been improvements on this front, see here as an example of front loading the article with bias, unverified inferences, guilt by association and other nonsense.
But if there is a consensus that his political views need to be stated in the very first paragraph, it should be contextualized either by the simple expedient of attributing this characterization to a person making the generalization or drawing from Reardon own sources regarding how he has characterized his position, which is more complex than what is typically considered the "pro-life" advocacy view. (Indeed, he has been criticized by several pro-life publications for his "too pro-woman" views.)
For reference, here is the current lead:
Alternate #1, which clarifies that Kranish is characterizing Reardon's position:
Alternate #2, which is, as best as I can read it, how Reardon characterizes his position:
Alternate #3: Briefer--but still unlikely to satisfy those who want to pigeon hole Reardon right up front:
--
Strider12 (
talk)
00:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Policy for lead suggests that " Contentious material about living persons must be cited every time, regardless of the level of generality." That he advocates a "pro-woman/pro-life" approach as you word it is acceptable and notable because it invites the reader to learn how and why he distinguishes this from a pro-life approach.
It is unacceptable however, to characterize him as "advocating strict barriers to abortion" as that is a reporter's characterization, not Reardon's description. He would deny that he is erecting any barriers to abortion, but is instead simply advocating that doctors should be held properly liable for injuries caused by abortion. Making Abortion Rare does not advocate a ban or barriers. The claim he "advocates strict barriers" pigeon holes him as an anti-abortion extremist rather than an advocate for listening to women hurt by abortion, which is how he portrays himself, and as I and many post-abortive women see him. -- Strider12 ( talk) 03:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
He claims it on his website, and in downloadable speeches. It is clear he considers himself "pro-life." You cannot continue to dispute this. We've shown you the citations several times over.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 23:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
He claims he is pro-life and pro-woman, as I have frequently documented. Reporting only half of his self-description is a distortion. It is the distortion I dispute. Secondly, that he "favors strict barriers to abortion" is the characterization of a reporter. I have documented, and continue to have purged, his more nuanced postion which is to provide right to redress for women injured by abortion. Whether or not that constitute a "strict barrier to abortion" may be debated, but it is clearly not his own characterization. Once again, you (singular, since I believe IronAngelAlice, MastCell and Anon 131 are all the same person using multiple logins to create a false "consensus") cannot simply take a couple reporter's accounts and treat them as the final authorative word nor ignore Wikipedia policy that such reporter's characterizations of a living person should be attributed, in the text, to the reporter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
1. This is a biography of a living person who is a researcher and writer. The complete bibliography of this person is relevent and verifiable. Deleting the bibliography of his research is a blatent attempt to hide his achievements so that criticisms of his work will not seem so petty. PLEASE STOP THE VANDALISM.
2. Characterizations and criticisms of a living person should ALWAYS be attributed IN THE TEXT to the cited person and source making the characterization and criticism so that it is not portrayed as a "fact."
3. Deleting properly cited quotes from the subject, Reardon, is vandalism, especially when these are deleted to hide or deemphasize his position in favor of promoting the criticisms of his critics.
4. The "no original research policy" means it is inappropriate to go beyond the information that the critics give and adding in new information, from editors, that says if this and that then this too. An example in some versions of this article is NEW RESEARCH into Pacific Western University, citing sources that say nothing of Reardon but are only about the university, so as to demean the university and by implication to demean Reardon. It is fair to cite that the reporters claim he received his degree from, as quoted Pacific Western which they describe as "unaccredited universty", but beyond that it is new research to dig up dirt on PWU to put into an article about Reardon.
5. It is permissible to add material and try to blend it with existing material to improve the article. Deleting verifiable quotes and bibliographical information about the subject in order to promote the POV that he is a biased, uncaring, pro-life zealot with no real expertise is vandalism and will be reported.
Add if you wish. Reorganize if you feel it will strengthen the article. But do not vandalize the contributions of other editors by deleting factual information. Strider12 ( talk) 05:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
IronAngel's revert today...eliminating much new material...claims it is a revert to "previously agreed upon text." Obviously, since this is a disputed article, it is not agreed upon text.-- Strider12 ( talk) 23:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no wikipedia policy that POV pushing of editors should be allowed to define and insist on a "tenor of the text" which violates NPOV. The tenor of this text is clearly to diminish and attack a living person. Look where the attack on his degree is, right up front, instead of where it belongs as part of the commentary of Mooney. The tenor of this article is simply to argue that Reardon is uneducated, biased, and unrealiable. None of his actual research findings are allowed. And to further this agenda, POV pushers are trying to hide the verfiable fact that his research has been accepted and published in numerous journals and to conceal from readers the breadth of his work. Clearly, a bilbliography of a person's published works properly belongs in a biography. Purging a bibliography is misrepresentation and vandalism. -- Strider12 ( talk) 05:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
It is civil and informed to remind people that deletion of core material is vandalism. If a holocaust denier deleted a list of death camps, that would be vandalism. Deleting the bibliography of a researcher is vandalism. Is MastCell claiming that he deleted it? If not, perhaps MastCell should help remind others not to delete verifiable material. -- Strider12 ( talk) 16:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
MastCell's asserting that full bibliographies are not "generally" listed for other researchers points to a flaw in other biographies, not a rule which justifies deleting the list from this bibliography.-- Strider12 ( talk) 17:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I replaced material that was deleted without cause from this article. The article as currently reads contains both pro and con information on Reardon, just as it should be. It violates POV to remove the citable peer-reviewed contributions that Reardon has made, and the other material which provides NPOV to the article. Wikipedia is not a place for writing propaganda and hit pieces. We should not artificially prop up Reardon, nor should we diminish him. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 07:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
No references were removed. The references section is in tact. What we have tried to do on this Reardon article is to replace old scientific data and consensus with the most up-to-date scientific data and consensus. Part of what may seem to be information that puts Reardon in a poor light is a reflection of the current scientific consensus and data. However, Reardon has also misrepresented his credentials, and has been subject to academic criticism for his methods. These things, unfortunately, are pertinent to any article about Reardon.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Reardon has generally responded to these criticisms with the counter-charge that his critics arguments and motives are themselves tainted by pro-choice biases. In response to Major's commentary regarding his study of psychiatric hospitalization following abortion, Reardon asserts that Major's critique fails to inform readers of her own studies which confirmed that a small portion of women having abortion suffer what Reardon categorizes as post-traumatic stress disorder coinciding with their abortions.[35]
In response to the controversy and challenges presented by Reardon's research, a group of New Zealand researchers undertook a study published in 2006 to test Major's argument that psychological differences between women with a history of abortions and those with no history of abortion can be best explained by more pre-existing psychological disorders among the types of women most likely to undergo an abortion.[36] The team, led by Professor David Fergusson, examined data collected from a longitudinal study of 500 New Zealand women between the age of 15 and 25 years of age. The study found an association between women who had abortions and elevated rates of suicidal behaviors, depression, substance abuse, anxiety, and other mental problems. Moreover, after attempting to explain these differences by examining demographic variables and measures of mental health prior to the women's first pregnancies, they concluded that the difference in subsequent mental health could not be easily explained by causes other than exposure to abortion.[37] In the conclusions section of their paper Fergusson's team criticized the American Psychological Association (APA) for its one sided reviews of abortion complications.[38] The New Zealand study also cites Reardon four times, using his conclusions to draw similar conclusions of their own. However, the authors of the New Zealand study were careful to not draw a causal relationship (as Reardon did) between abortion and mental illness, substance abuse, depression or other factors.[39][40] Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 03:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
Here is some further evidence that the edits that I am requesting should be included, and that Major et el's criticism is not as conclusive as it should be. The following is a e-letter that the CMAJ published in response to Major's article. It contains cites to studies which SUPPORT some of Reardon's claims:
_____________________________________________________________________________
Psychological sequelae following induced abortion 14 October 2003 Previous eLetter Top Leverett L deVeber, MD President, The deVeber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research
Send letter to journal: Re: Psychological sequelae following induced abortion
Email Leverett L deVeber, MD
In response to Dr. Major's article on psychological sequelae following induced abortion, we would like to make the following comments:
While she is to be commended for pointing out the need for more rigorous long-term studies, it is unfortunate that Dr. Major has minimized the psychological and psychiatric problems that may arise following induced abortion. Chapter 14, "Behavioral Outcomes, Suicide, Healing," of Women's Health after Abortion: The Medical and Psychological Evidence, identifies self-destructive behaviours as being more common in post- abortive women than in women who give birth.(1)
Of note is a prestigious Finnish study of the records of almost 600,000 women: it showed a suicide rate among women who aborted nearly six times greater than among women who delivered, and three times the general suicide rate.(2) A Welsh study of 408,00 women found the relative risk of suicide after induced abortion to be 3.25.(3) Other self-destructive behaviours, such as increased substance abuse, attempted suicide, self- mutilation, and eating disorders have been found more commonly in post- abortive women.(4)
In spite of apparent conflicts in the literature and methodological problems including high drop-out rates,(5) it is clear there are serious psychological problems following induced abortion. Indeed Dr. Major found 25-35 per cent of women she sampled were depressed or dissatisfied with their decision to abort.(6)
Evidence of significant post-abortion psychological dysfunction is seen in the large numbers of post-abortive women seeking counselling from organizations such as Project Rachel(7) and The Healing Choice.(8) The National Office for Project Rachel deals with 5,000 cases a year, has trained 4,000 counsellors, all of whom are fully occupied, and knows of twenty-five other counselling programs. The Healing Choice states that at least ten per cent of post-abortive women have problems requiring counselling. If one considers the large numbers of abortions done in the U.S. and Canada every year, should even a small percentage result in post- abortion psychological problems, there is a significant, cumulative public health problem requiring attention.
Doctors have a "continuing duty" as well as an obligation to inform their clients about risks associated with abortion. Prior to the procedure, a woman must be advised of the possibility of mental health problems developing at any time following abortion in addition to other risks she may face such as preterm birth, placenta praevia, and breast cancer.
Sincerely,
L.L. deVeber, MD, FRCP(C) President
Martha Crean Project Leader Women's Health after Abortion
1. Ring-Cassidy E, Gentles I. Women's Health after Abortion: The Medical and Psychological Evidence Toronto: The deVeber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research, 2002, 333 pages. Based on an analytic review of more then 500 books and scientific articles the text is a careful summary of the recent medical evidence of the impact of abortion on women's health.
2. a) Gissler M, Hemminki E, Lonnqvist J. Suicides after pregnancy in Finland 1987-94: register linkage study. BMJ 1996, Dec. 7; 313(7070): 1431-4.
b) Gissler M, Hemminki E, Lonnqvist J. Letters: Suicides after pregnancy-Authors Reply. BMJ 1997 Mar. 22; 314(7084): 902-3.
3. Morgan CL Evans M, Peters JR, Currie C. "Suicides after pregnancy. Mental health may deteriorate as a direct effect of induced abortion." BMJ March 22; 314: 902
4. For example: a) Reardon DC, Ney PG. Abortion and subsequent substance abuse. American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse 2000 Feb.; 26(1):61-75. b) Frank et al., Cocaine use during pregnancy: Prevalence and correlates. Pediatrics 1988 Dec.; 82(6):888-95. c) Mensch B, Kandel DB. Drug use as a risk factor for premarital teen pregnancy and abortion in a national sample of young white women. Demography 1992 Aug.; 29(3):409-29.
5. Soderberg H et al. "Selection bias in a study on how women experience induced abortion" European Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology and Reproductive Biology 77 (1998) pp.67-70.
6. a) Major et al. Psychological responses of women after first trimester abortion" Archives of General Psychiatry Vol. 57, August 2000 pp. 777-784. b) Major, Cozzarelli et al. Women's experiences of and reactions to anti- abortion picketing. Basic and Applied Social Psychology 22(4) pp. 265-275.
7. Project Rachel, National Office of Reconciliation and Healing, Milwaukee, Wis. 53207; or, Box 2400, London ON N6A 4G3.
8. De Puy C and D Dovitch. The Healing Choice: Your Guide to Emotional Recovery After an Abortion. N.Y.: Fireside, 1997.
Conflict of Interest:
None declared
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We need to make it clear the Major's criticism is not the end all that some want to pretend. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 03:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
MAST, I WISH YOU WOULD ATTEMPT TO BE A BIT MORE OBJECTIVE. (And then continuing my entire post in caps.) Drawing Emphasis to a particular word or piece of information is not the same as "internet yelling" I take offense at you attempting to categorize my actions in this way. Aren't we supposed to be assuming good faith here?
Wikipedia policy WP:VANDAL describes the deletion of verifiable information as "blanking" -- a form of vandalism.
The reasons given by some editors in this article for removing verifiable information--even such simple and appropriate information as the subject's complete bibliography--are clearly frivolous. The only conceivable purpose for omitting a listing of Reardon's studies is to avoid the clear POV slant of this article that he is a con-artist and a fool.
Because this is an electronic journal, we don't have an obligation to keep the article under a certain word count. Clearly, out of respect to both the subject and all the editors collaborating on this article, the general rule of thumb should be to retain any added material that is verifiable. Clarifications and reorganization of verifiable information is always permissable--and truly in keeping with the goal of collaboration. But simply blanking material that runs counter to a preferred POV is never permissable. That is simply vandalism--or at the very least, crude POV-pushing.
I realize that calling vandalism by its true name is frowned upon by many editors(see Wikipedia:Don't call a spade a spade), but this is an ongoing problem with a number of deletions of material in both this article and post-abortion syndrome, and article in which there was an open discussion of "purging" every study Reardon has authored or co-authored. The effort to conceal his body of research continues even in his biography.
All this should be considered in light of the fact that the growing influence of Wikipedia among web users has caused an increasing number of special interest groups to assign paid staff to the task of being "professional" Wikipedia editors. Their jobs are to monitor and purging articles of verifiable facts and sources of information which conflict with their employers' agendas.
This kind of "blanking" undermines all of Wikipedia and is a disservice to readers who wish to have a copious amount of information available to them, not just the portion which POV-warriors are willing to share.-- Strider12 ( talk) 20:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The last revert was one that was in direct violation of the consensus achieved on this page. Both MastCell and I agreed that in-line citations were appropriate where we added them. Additionally, it was demonstrated that Reardon is a biomedical ethicist. This material was removed with the contention that it was previously agreed upon. This is not correct. Additionally this revert was one of many. WELL OVER 3. WP:3RR. As I have taken additional steps in this matter, I'll not revert until we receive additional input. But as a gesture of good-will I would request that the user who made these unilateral changes self-revert and Discuss so we can truly work toward consensus. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 03:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
I can't keep up with you guys.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 04:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Wait, what exactly am I supposed to revert?-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 04:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I always engage talk pages. (See above and archives). My first reaction to you was that you were attempting to bully me. But, perhaps it was simply inexperience with wikipedia. I will trust that you are editing in good faith.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 07:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
We need to fix the section referencing Pacific Western University (Now: California Miramar University.) It is correct that PWU/CMU is unaccredited. However, the University is approved by California Board of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education to grant degrees. This is commonly referred to as a "State Approved School." http://www.cpec.ca.gov/CollegeGuide/AdvCollegeSearch.asp?InstType=StateAppr
2nd, The blurb says that PWU/CMU does not offer classroom or online instruction. As far as I can tell, the university DOES offer online instruction AND evening classes. It appears that the online program is similar in nature to other Distance Education schools. I am not sure what the evening classes entail. http://www.calmu.edu/main-navigation/admissions/faqs.html
Either way, as currently written the blurb is inaccurate. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 06:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
Ghostmonkey, the United States General Accounting Office lists Pacific Western University as a "diploma mill." In testimony (downloaded here: www.gao.gov/new.items/d04771t.pdf) GAO investigators said:
Moreover, diploma mills and other unaccredited schools modify their billing practices so students can obtain payments for degrees by the federal government. Purporting to be a prospective student, our investigator placed telephone calls to three schools that award academic credits based on life experience and require no classroom instruction: Barrington University (Mobile, Alabama); Lacrosse University (Bay St. Louis, Mississippi); and Pacific Western University (Los Angeles, California). These schools each charge a flat fee for a degree. For example, fees for degrees for domestic students at Pacific Western University are as follows: Bachelor of Science ($2,295); Master’s Degree in Business Administration ($2,395); and PhD ($2,595). School representatives emphasized to our undercover investigator that they are not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis.
Also see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=FzkMEDKflKwC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=%22us+government+accountability+office%22+pacific+western+university&source=web&ots=1wJLiUWtuX&sig=cZD0c1PrRnH0Ah5xXbwlBl7jpTw
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/310/5753/1423a
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2007/08/117_8792.html
--
IronAngelAlice (
talk)
08:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Not at all "agreed." Did you not take the time to read the .pdf from the GAO? It clearly states that Pacific Western University is "not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training." The GAO lists Pacific Western as a "Diploma Mill." -- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:27, 28 December 2007
Furthermore, Chris Mooney writes: "he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction." ( http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0410.mooney.html)-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
See Chris Mooney (also Korea Times, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science magazine). You are out of control, GM.--
IronAngelAlice (
talk)
08:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
No, now the burden of proof is on you. I've established from reputable sources, including the United States United States General Accounting Office, that Pacific Western is a "diploma mill." It is incumbent upon you to establish that Reardon did any coursework.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I certainly can. Chris Mooney already published it. Why are you doing this? It's completely illogical.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The GOA investigation involved schools modify their billing practices so students can obtain payments for degrees by the federal government. That's what the GOA investigates, the waste/theft of Federal money. School representatives emphasized to our undercover investigator that they are not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis.However, representatives of each school told our undercover investigator that they would structure their charges in order to facilitate payment by the federal government. Each agreed to divide the degree fee by the number of courses a student was required to take, thereby creating a series of payments as if a per course fee were charged. All of the school representatives stated that students at their respective schools had secured payment for their degrees by the federal government. My sentence is relevant and necessary to show exactly what the GOA was investigating. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 09:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons
We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space.
Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm".
This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons in other articles. The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material.
If, either as an editor or a subject, you have concerns about biographical material about a living person in Wikipedia, please report your concerns on the BLP noticeboard.
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The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics; rather, it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral, in particular, header structure for regions or subsections should reflect important areas to the subject's notability.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
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These two points need to be taken into consideration. We need to fix the Critics section, as the article as written contains only criticism and not the paragraph regarding the Fergusson Study and the Reardon Response. This is violative of the policy. I suggest we agree on a consensus edit of the two paragraphs to conform to the guidelines written above. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 08:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
We can re-write these to fit consensus and include them where they were deleted. Ghostmonkey57 ( talk) 08:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
See the archives. The article was already written by consensus. To ignore criticisms of Reardon would be a mistake considering his fringe positions. I'm warning you now to slow down.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 08:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here, and it stems from the a Reardon-centric cosmology. The Fergusson paper didn't "debunk" anything. It was not a "response" to criticism of Reardon, and setting it up as such is a canonical violation of WP:SYN. The Fergusson paper reached a conclusion at odds with that of the APA, and carefully explained why that might be (including discussion of a number of limitations of their study). Presumably, when the APA's new position statement is released it will take Fergusson's research into account; when that statement is released, it will obviously have a major bearing on how things are presented here. However, we shouldn't attempt to pre-empt that evaluation by claiming that Fergusson's research "debunks" prior findings. The problem is that Reardon's arguments are part of a larger debate on "post-abortion syndrome" - a debate where his view is clearly opposed by a large volume of evidence and expert opinion. Giving Reardon the "last word" by citing non-notable blog responses he's made (in apposition to editorials from peer-reviewed journals) unfairly and inaccurately skews our representation of that debate. Reardon's position is represented here, in his own words, at length. Most independent, reliable secondary source coverage of Reardon and his research is mildly to moderately critical. That's a fact - we didn't create these sources, but we need to base the article on them. MastCell Talk 23:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
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