This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
David Lloyd George article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
I think we might need some work on the caption for the March 1916 Paris Conference photo.
I reckon:
The British delegation are the ones on the left, facing away from us. Kitchener is the British general sitting with his back to us (in so far as one can tell from a photo of a siting man, he looks tall and strongly-built, which fits the bill). Lloyd George is two to his left, turning to look at us. Is Grey the dark-haired one to Lloyd George's left, leaning forward to obscure his face? Is that Asquith two further to the left, leaning back to look at the camera? Is that Esher or Francis Bertie in between Grey and Asquith?
The French are the ones on the opposite left, facing towards us. I can make out Aristide Briand in the middle of that row. Joffre is on the opposite corner looking at us (to the right of Briand - his left). Is that Foch (CinC French Army Group North at the time, tasked with liaising with the British for the upcoming Somme offensive) in the dark uniform, standing by the fireplace behind Briand?
The Serbs are on the opposite right, looking towards us. Pasic, with the long grey two-forked beard, is in the middle of that row. The man with the handlebar moustache sitting next to him looks superficially like Kitchener but I think isn't.
I reckon that is a Japanese delegate on the right of the photo, behind the Serbs (as every schoolboy knows, they were on the Allied side in WW1).
I guess the Russians and Italians are on the near right side, but I wouldn't like to hazard a guess which moustachioed sixtysomething is Salandra and which is Izvolski.
Liz Greenhalgh mentions the conference briefly in her "Victory through Coalition" (a history of Allied relations). She says that it didn't achieve much, as Briand for reasons unknown vetoed moves to set up an inter-Allied secretariat. Her biog of Foch does not mention him attending, which of course does not prove that he didn't. Paulturtle ( talk) 06:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
By pure coincidence, I am reading Duff Cooper's memoirs "Old Men Forget" at the moment, and he mentions seeing Asquith, Grey, Lloyd George and Kitchener depart from Walmer Castle for a conference in France in March 1916 (he mentions Grey wearing dark glasses in public, but seems unaware that this would have been because Grey was already going blind by then). His diaries, not published until 2005, confirm the date as 26 March 1916. So that might very well be Asquith in the photo. Paulturtle ( talk) 00:13, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the conference is discussed in David Dutton "The Politics of Diplomacy". Kitchener hectored Joffre about withdrawing British divisions from the Salonika Front and Joffre was rude about Robertson in reply. Salonika was never quite the sideshow assumed by many British accounts - it mattered a lot to France, Russia and Italy, and the British Cabinet, caught between the need to appease the French and the fact that Haig and Robertson had been given a free hand to manage the Western Front as they pleased, spent more time bickering about Salonika in 1916 than they did about the Somme. I don't see any evidence that Lloyd George played any particularly notable role at the conference. Paulturtle ( talk) 19:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't have access to the book being cited, so I don't know if the reference is for the timing or the fact that he Lloyd George never took his seat; but the following statement is contradicted by other sources and other parts of the article-
Elsewhere in the article he is stated as receiving his peerage 12 February 1945, over a month later. Taking a reference from Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, the London Gazette dated 13 February 1945 states the letters patent creating the peerage were dated the 12th Feb. At a glance, I think the issue is 'Offer and acceptance of a peerage ≠ Being made a peer' (e.g. Zac Goldsmith just waited a month for his creation). I (perhaps wrongly) assume in January he accepted an offer to be made a peer, but it wasn't finalised until February. Although somewhat trivial, I think this is a contradiction that ought be resolved. Editing with Eric ( talk) 14:33, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Something I wonder was true and could be mentioned in the section on his time as Minister of Munitions if there are sources to support it.
I well recall reading a book by David Benedictus (that alas I no longer possess) The Life and Times of David Lloyd George on which the 1980s BBC2 TV series of the same title was been based (it used on its front cover a pic of Lloyd George as played by Philip Madoc, its central actor). Lloyd George was initially deputed by Asquith to accompany Lord Kitchener (the former in his then capacity as Munitions Minister and the latter as our War Secretary) to sail on the mission to Russia that led to Kitchener being lost on HMS Hampshire. However in the run up to the voyage the Easter Rising erupted, leading to Lloyd George being assigned to join negotiations with the Irish MPs. (Irish support for the war effort was considered to be at stake at that point and Lloyd George was, I understand, respected as a Celt able to deal with Irish concerns.) As the negotiations overran Lloyd George was unable to join the mission when it set sail. In the light of later events in 1916 that was significant as Lloyd George might well have shared the fate of Kitchener and all of Hampshire's passengers, and not lived to become PM.
I got into correspondence with local newspaper, the Shropshire Star who, during the time the TV series was on air, published an article about a rumoured hoard of gold on the Hampshire, which inaccurately stated that Lloyd George was PM at the time and sent Kitchener on the mission to get rid of a man who had been troublesome to deal with over munitions issues. I mentioned the story according to Benedictus and reminded that Asquith was then the PM making Lloyd George and Kitchener cabinet colleagues, not respectively PM and subordinate minister. The newspaper published my letter with a heading of their own making, MISSING THE BOAT SAVED LLOYD GEORGE. (True Lloyd George's relationship with Kitchener had not been untroubled but Benedictus' story, reflected in the TV series, was that by that point he had become reconciled to Kitchener to some extent as Lloyd George allegedly fancied the idea of being able to acquire a fur hat.)
So, is the narrative according to David Benedictus supported in the work of serious historians?
A google of the author and book title turns up video clips of the TV series that credit David Benedictus as the writer, although he is not mentioned in the wiki article on the TV series.
I have BTW, in Ireland sub-subsection of the subsection Postwar Prime Minister of the article's section on his Premiership, made a clarification in the opening reference to the Easter Rising - which is not mentioned earlier in the article - to point out this happened under Asquith's and not Lloyd George's premiership. Cloptonson ( talk) 19:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Lloyd-George was properly styled as "The Right Honourable The Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor" not as, "The Right Honourable David Lloyd-George." Standard practice on all individuals with noble titles is to use the title and honorific in the infobox and then to use name and title number in the opening paragraph. The only instance in which this rule is excepted is on infoboxes for military persons, which are blue, in which case we still use title but skip the honourific. Therefore there are no grounds for exception here. The reasons for the issue of and the usage of the title have no relevance to the inclusion of the title in the infobox. This article's exclusion of this standard is out of order and incorrect. RexAntica ( talk) 13:31, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
I think the infobox name should match the article title, being the subject's common name. His earldom is a footnote to his life. I would apply this to all other articles where a peerage was conferred later in life Ivar the Boneful ( talk) 01:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- Being prime minister of the UK does not neccessarily mean he regarded himself as British
- born to two Welsh parents
- fluent in Welsh and Welsh was his first language
- One of the main leaders of Cymru Fydd promoting Welsh home rule and a "stronger Welsh identity" [1]
- Seen as a radical figure and reawakening of Welsh nationalism and identity [2]
- Even UK government website refers to him as the only Welshman to be Prime minister [3]
- Often referred to as the Welsh wizard due to his auratory and diplomatic skills [4]
- Referred to as a "Welshman first" and a Welsh nationalist who saw the opportunities for Wales in the Uk according to a lecturer at the University of South Wales. [5]
All in all it seems to be quite clear that there's plenty of evidence to support the following edits to Lloyd George's page;
Nationality: Welsh, Citizenship: British TG11TG15 ( talk) 18:49, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Additional evidence Plenty of additional evidence to support him being a "proud Welshman".
- Referred to as a "proud Welshman". [6]
- Lord Steel in 2006 on Lloyd George: "so identified with Wales that he was not part of the metropolitan establishemnt" [7]
- "Lifelong Welsh nationalist" [8]
TG11TG15 ( talk) 01:28, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
As above; no-one is arguing that LG wasn’t Welsh, nor that his being Welsh wasn’t a matter of great importance, both to him and to his life and career. The second paragraph of the lead begins with a description of this very point. So, the discussion seems limited to whether he should be described as a Welsh or a British statesman in the first para. of the lead. Here, I think LG’s own wording for his epitaph nicely expresses the point: “Bred in the village. Prime Minister of Britain in the Great War.” He is clearly emphasising his Welsh heritage, and its importance, but is also marking the apogee of his career - as the British PM. For me, to describe him as a Welsh statesman is unnecessarily limiting, in that it doesn’t fully reflect the range of his achievements or, for our narrower Wikipedia purposes, his notability. KJP1 ( talk) 18:54, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Fair enough. I would say that the epitah doesn't discuss nationality, just that DLG was prime minister of Britain. I must continue to press that he referred to himself as a "Welshman first" and Britain and Internationlist second and is obviously well known as being prime minister so I think these two proposals may be the best options.
Proposal 1: "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a statesman, Liberal Party politician and the only Welshman to serve as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922)." (This includes a reference to being prime minister of Britain)
Proposal 2 "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Welsh and British statesman, Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1922."
Could we have a vote or proposal of another alternative opening line, followed by a vote? Thanks all, TG11TG15 ( talk) 22:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Proposal A "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Welsh and British statesman, Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922)."
Proposal B "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a radical Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922). His nickname, "the Welsh wizard" refers to his Welsh nationality and abilities as a statesman."
Proposal C "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Welsh statesman, Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916 to 1922)."
Proposal D "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a radical Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922). His nickname, "the Welsh wizard" refers to his Welsh nationality and abilities as a statesman."
Proposal E "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922). He was a Liberal politician, and his nickname, "the Welsh wizard" refers to his Welsh nationality and abilities as a statesman."
(All proposals include a reference to him being prime minister of UK and being Welsh.) Can we form a consensus on which is preferred or alternatives please? Thanks TG11TG15 ( talk) 17:11, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
[10]I have a strong feeling for Monmouthshire and a certain feeling for Wales as a whole but as I don't believe in assuming mantles which aren't there, to say that I was Welsh in the sense that Lloyd George was Welsh, that his whole culture, his whole outlook, his language was Welsh would be an exaggeration and I don't like exaggerations but coming back here is always an interesting and evocative experience for me.
Based on this expansive evidence it is important to acknowledge that the Welsh outlook of Lloyd George was evident persistent throughout his political career and should be recongised in the opening sentence. Thanks. TG11TG15 ( talk) 20:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Why is there an insistence that Lloyd George must be considered British rather than Welsh? Would being Welsh be considered an insult? He is Welsh, there is no denying that fact. Every Welsh person could also be considered British, yet I don't see anyone insisting that Tom Jones or Saunders Lewis' page refer to either one of those men as British. Being called British might suggest to a more uninformed reader that he is English, as this is what many people assume, especially people who are not from the UK. There is little justification in calling David Lloyd George British over Welsh. It seems to me that this insistence on calling him British stems from the notion that any person from Wales with relevance outside of Wales must be considered British so that English people can also feel pride in what that person achieved. I would imagine that a man who was as proud of being Welsh as Lloyd George would have wanted to be remembered as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gethin T ( talk • contribs) 17:43, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
The first sentence should usually state:
Name(s) and title(s), if any (see also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)). Handling of the subject's name is covered below in § First mention. Dates of birth and death, if found in secondary sources (do not use primary sources for birth dates of living persons or other private details about them). Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable. One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person is mainly known for, avoiding subjective or contentious terms. The main reason the person is notable (key accomplishment, record, etc.) However, try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject; instead, spread relevant information over the lead section"
"David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Liberal Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1922. Prior to this, he served as Caernarfon Boroughs MP, President of the Board of Trade, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Minister of Munitions and Secretary of State for War. He is known for; advocating Welsh devolution, social reform policies, wartime governance, his role in the Paris peace conference and negotiating the establishment of the Irish Free State."
I think this is a fair neutral opening paragraph. I have changed the introductory paragraph to this as a temporary measure until a reference to nationality is agreed upon. Thank you all. TG11TG15 ( talk) 20:42, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1922. He was a liberal politician known for; advocating Welsh devolution, social reform policies, wartime governance, his role in the Paris peace conference and negotiating the establishment of the Irish Free State.
References
TG11TG15 - I’m not at all sure that the Welsh background section is an improvement. Aside from the clunky style - you use the word “Welsh/Welshman” six times in one sentence - the unformatted urls, the dubious sources - Youtube - and whether a lengthy quote from Roy Jenkins, mainly about himself, actually adds much, I think we are in danger of shading into Soapbox. I get that you are very keen to emphasise LG’s Welshness, and we’re currently discussing how that might be better reflected in the opening sentence of the lead. I’m just not certain that a whole section that repeats the fact of his being Welsh ten times in two short paragraphs is really necessary. KJP1 ( talk) 01:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
Removed content eith documentary source of youtube. Thanks for feedback, I welcome any more feedback Titus Gold ( talk) 02:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC).
Odd that this long article doesn't mention LG's house being blown up in 1913! Johnbod ( talk) 00:57, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Whereas there is no fallacy in the statement that Lloyd-George was supporting a pre-WW2 Nazi Germany, the modern use of "Nazi" paint Lloyd-George as a Nazi sympathiser which comes with all sorts of pre-conceptions (antisemitism, white supremacism, support for the War, etc). This section of the article makes no mention of his thoughts on Nazi Germany's WW2 activities - only their post-WW1 activities - a time before Hitler had revealed himself. Lloyd-George's remarks about Hitler and post-war Germany were not unfair in a pre-WW2 world. It is for this reason that I believe this section should be retitled Support for Post-War Germany. – Dyolf87 ( talk) 06:31, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
David Lloyd George article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
|
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
I think we might need some work on the caption for the March 1916 Paris Conference photo.
I reckon:
The British delegation are the ones on the left, facing away from us. Kitchener is the British general sitting with his back to us (in so far as one can tell from a photo of a siting man, he looks tall and strongly-built, which fits the bill). Lloyd George is two to his left, turning to look at us. Is Grey the dark-haired one to Lloyd George's left, leaning forward to obscure his face? Is that Asquith two further to the left, leaning back to look at the camera? Is that Esher or Francis Bertie in between Grey and Asquith?
The French are the ones on the opposite left, facing towards us. I can make out Aristide Briand in the middle of that row. Joffre is on the opposite corner looking at us (to the right of Briand - his left). Is that Foch (CinC French Army Group North at the time, tasked with liaising with the British for the upcoming Somme offensive) in the dark uniform, standing by the fireplace behind Briand?
The Serbs are on the opposite right, looking towards us. Pasic, with the long grey two-forked beard, is in the middle of that row. The man with the handlebar moustache sitting next to him looks superficially like Kitchener but I think isn't.
I reckon that is a Japanese delegate on the right of the photo, behind the Serbs (as every schoolboy knows, they were on the Allied side in WW1).
I guess the Russians and Italians are on the near right side, but I wouldn't like to hazard a guess which moustachioed sixtysomething is Salandra and which is Izvolski.
Liz Greenhalgh mentions the conference briefly in her "Victory through Coalition" (a history of Allied relations). She says that it didn't achieve much, as Briand for reasons unknown vetoed moves to set up an inter-Allied secretariat. Her biog of Foch does not mention him attending, which of course does not prove that he didn't. Paulturtle ( talk) 06:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
By pure coincidence, I am reading Duff Cooper's memoirs "Old Men Forget" at the moment, and he mentions seeing Asquith, Grey, Lloyd George and Kitchener depart from Walmer Castle for a conference in France in March 1916 (he mentions Grey wearing dark glasses in public, but seems unaware that this would have been because Grey was already going blind by then). His diaries, not published until 2005, confirm the date as 26 March 1916. So that might very well be Asquith in the photo. Paulturtle ( talk) 00:13, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the conference is discussed in David Dutton "The Politics of Diplomacy". Kitchener hectored Joffre about withdrawing British divisions from the Salonika Front and Joffre was rude about Robertson in reply. Salonika was never quite the sideshow assumed by many British accounts - it mattered a lot to France, Russia and Italy, and the British Cabinet, caught between the need to appease the French and the fact that Haig and Robertson had been given a free hand to manage the Western Front as they pleased, spent more time bickering about Salonika in 1916 than they did about the Somme. I don't see any evidence that Lloyd George played any particularly notable role at the conference. Paulturtle ( talk) 19:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't have access to the book being cited, so I don't know if the reference is for the timing or the fact that he Lloyd George never took his seat; but the following statement is contradicted by other sources and other parts of the article-
Elsewhere in the article he is stated as receiving his peerage 12 February 1945, over a month later. Taking a reference from Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, the London Gazette dated 13 February 1945 states the letters patent creating the peerage were dated the 12th Feb. At a glance, I think the issue is 'Offer and acceptance of a peerage ≠ Being made a peer' (e.g. Zac Goldsmith just waited a month for his creation). I (perhaps wrongly) assume in January he accepted an offer to be made a peer, but it wasn't finalised until February. Although somewhat trivial, I think this is a contradiction that ought be resolved. Editing with Eric ( talk) 14:33, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Something I wonder was true and could be mentioned in the section on his time as Minister of Munitions if there are sources to support it.
I well recall reading a book by David Benedictus (that alas I no longer possess) The Life and Times of David Lloyd George on which the 1980s BBC2 TV series of the same title was been based (it used on its front cover a pic of Lloyd George as played by Philip Madoc, its central actor). Lloyd George was initially deputed by Asquith to accompany Lord Kitchener (the former in his then capacity as Munitions Minister and the latter as our War Secretary) to sail on the mission to Russia that led to Kitchener being lost on HMS Hampshire. However in the run up to the voyage the Easter Rising erupted, leading to Lloyd George being assigned to join negotiations with the Irish MPs. (Irish support for the war effort was considered to be at stake at that point and Lloyd George was, I understand, respected as a Celt able to deal with Irish concerns.) As the negotiations overran Lloyd George was unable to join the mission when it set sail. In the light of later events in 1916 that was significant as Lloyd George might well have shared the fate of Kitchener and all of Hampshire's passengers, and not lived to become PM.
I got into correspondence with local newspaper, the Shropshire Star who, during the time the TV series was on air, published an article about a rumoured hoard of gold on the Hampshire, which inaccurately stated that Lloyd George was PM at the time and sent Kitchener on the mission to get rid of a man who had been troublesome to deal with over munitions issues. I mentioned the story according to Benedictus and reminded that Asquith was then the PM making Lloyd George and Kitchener cabinet colleagues, not respectively PM and subordinate minister. The newspaper published my letter with a heading of their own making, MISSING THE BOAT SAVED LLOYD GEORGE. (True Lloyd George's relationship with Kitchener had not been untroubled but Benedictus' story, reflected in the TV series, was that by that point he had become reconciled to Kitchener to some extent as Lloyd George allegedly fancied the idea of being able to acquire a fur hat.)
So, is the narrative according to David Benedictus supported in the work of serious historians?
A google of the author and book title turns up video clips of the TV series that credit David Benedictus as the writer, although he is not mentioned in the wiki article on the TV series.
I have BTW, in Ireland sub-subsection of the subsection Postwar Prime Minister of the article's section on his Premiership, made a clarification in the opening reference to the Easter Rising - which is not mentioned earlier in the article - to point out this happened under Asquith's and not Lloyd George's premiership. Cloptonson ( talk) 19:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Lloyd-George was properly styled as "The Right Honourable The Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor" not as, "The Right Honourable David Lloyd-George." Standard practice on all individuals with noble titles is to use the title and honorific in the infobox and then to use name and title number in the opening paragraph. The only instance in which this rule is excepted is on infoboxes for military persons, which are blue, in which case we still use title but skip the honourific. Therefore there are no grounds for exception here. The reasons for the issue of and the usage of the title have no relevance to the inclusion of the title in the infobox. This article's exclusion of this standard is out of order and incorrect. RexAntica ( talk) 13:31, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
I think the infobox name should match the article title, being the subject's common name. His earldom is a footnote to his life. I would apply this to all other articles where a peerage was conferred later in life Ivar the Boneful ( talk) 01:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- Being prime minister of the UK does not neccessarily mean he regarded himself as British
- born to two Welsh parents
- fluent in Welsh and Welsh was his first language
- One of the main leaders of Cymru Fydd promoting Welsh home rule and a "stronger Welsh identity" [1]
- Seen as a radical figure and reawakening of Welsh nationalism and identity [2]
- Even UK government website refers to him as the only Welshman to be Prime minister [3]
- Often referred to as the Welsh wizard due to his auratory and diplomatic skills [4]
- Referred to as a "Welshman first" and a Welsh nationalist who saw the opportunities for Wales in the Uk according to a lecturer at the University of South Wales. [5]
All in all it seems to be quite clear that there's plenty of evidence to support the following edits to Lloyd George's page;
Nationality: Welsh, Citizenship: British TG11TG15 ( talk) 18:49, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Additional evidence Plenty of additional evidence to support him being a "proud Welshman".
- Referred to as a "proud Welshman". [6]
- Lord Steel in 2006 on Lloyd George: "so identified with Wales that he was not part of the metropolitan establishemnt" [7]
- "Lifelong Welsh nationalist" [8]
TG11TG15 ( talk) 01:28, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
As above; no-one is arguing that LG wasn’t Welsh, nor that his being Welsh wasn’t a matter of great importance, both to him and to his life and career. The second paragraph of the lead begins with a description of this very point. So, the discussion seems limited to whether he should be described as a Welsh or a British statesman in the first para. of the lead. Here, I think LG’s own wording for his epitaph nicely expresses the point: “Bred in the village. Prime Minister of Britain in the Great War.” He is clearly emphasising his Welsh heritage, and its importance, but is also marking the apogee of his career - as the British PM. For me, to describe him as a Welsh statesman is unnecessarily limiting, in that it doesn’t fully reflect the range of his achievements or, for our narrower Wikipedia purposes, his notability. KJP1 ( talk) 18:54, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Fair enough. I would say that the epitah doesn't discuss nationality, just that DLG was prime minister of Britain. I must continue to press that he referred to himself as a "Welshman first" and Britain and Internationlist second and is obviously well known as being prime minister so I think these two proposals may be the best options.
Proposal 1: "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a statesman, Liberal Party politician and the only Welshman to serve as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922)." (This includes a reference to being prime minister of Britain)
Proposal 2 "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Welsh and British statesman, Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1922."
Could we have a vote or proposal of another alternative opening line, followed by a vote? Thanks all, TG11TG15 ( talk) 22:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Proposal A "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Welsh and British statesman, Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922)."
Proposal B "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a radical Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922). His nickname, "the Welsh wizard" refers to his Welsh nationality and abilities as a statesman."
Proposal C "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Welsh statesman, Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916 to 1922)."
Proposal D "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a radical Liberal politician and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922). His nickname, "the Welsh wizard" refers to his Welsh nationality and abilities as a statesman."
Proposal E "David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (1916-1922). He was a Liberal politician, and his nickname, "the Welsh wizard" refers to his Welsh nationality and abilities as a statesman."
(All proposals include a reference to him being prime minister of UK and being Welsh.) Can we form a consensus on which is preferred or alternatives please? Thanks TG11TG15 ( talk) 17:11, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
[10]I have a strong feeling for Monmouthshire and a certain feeling for Wales as a whole but as I don't believe in assuming mantles which aren't there, to say that I was Welsh in the sense that Lloyd George was Welsh, that his whole culture, his whole outlook, his language was Welsh would be an exaggeration and I don't like exaggerations but coming back here is always an interesting and evocative experience for me.
Based on this expansive evidence it is important to acknowledge that the Welsh outlook of Lloyd George was evident persistent throughout his political career and should be recongised in the opening sentence. Thanks. TG11TG15 ( talk) 20:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
Why is there an insistence that Lloyd George must be considered British rather than Welsh? Would being Welsh be considered an insult? He is Welsh, there is no denying that fact. Every Welsh person could also be considered British, yet I don't see anyone insisting that Tom Jones or Saunders Lewis' page refer to either one of those men as British. Being called British might suggest to a more uninformed reader that he is English, as this is what many people assume, especially people who are not from the UK. There is little justification in calling David Lloyd George British over Welsh. It seems to me that this insistence on calling him British stems from the notion that any person from Wales with relevance outside of Wales must be considered British so that English people can also feel pride in what that person achieved. I would imagine that a man who was as proud of being Welsh as Lloyd George would have wanted to be remembered as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gethin T ( talk • contribs) 17:43, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
The first sentence should usually state:
Name(s) and title(s), if any (see also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)). Handling of the subject's name is covered below in § First mention. Dates of birth and death, if found in secondary sources (do not use primary sources for birth dates of living persons or other private details about them). Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable. One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person is mainly known for, avoiding subjective or contentious terms. The main reason the person is notable (key accomplishment, record, etc.) However, try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject; instead, spread relevant information over the lead section"
"David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was a Liberal Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1922. Prior to this, he served as Caernarfon Boroughs MP, President of the Board of Trade, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Minister of Munitions and Secretary of State for War. He is known for; advocating Welsh devolution, social reform policies, wartime governance, his role in the Paris peace conference and negotiating the establishment of the Irish Free State."
I think this is a fair neutral opening paragraph. I have changed the introductory paragraph to this as a temporary measure until a reference to nationality is agreed upon. Thank you all. TG11TG15 ( talk) 20:42, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1916 to 1922. He was a liberal politician known for; advocating Welsh devolution, social reform policies, wartime governance, his role in the Paris peace conference and negotiating the establishment of the Irish Free State.
References
TG11TG15 - I’m not at all sure that the Welsh background section is an improvement. Aside from the clunky style - you use the word “Welsh/Welshman” six times in one sentence - the unformatted urls, the dubious sources - Youtube - and whether a lengthy quote from Roy Jenkins, mainly about himself, actually adds much, I think we are in danger of shading into Soapbox. I get that you are very keen to emphasise LG’s Welshness, and we’re currently discussing how that might be better reflected in the opening sentence of the lead. I’m just not certain that a whole section that repeats the fact of his being Welsh ten times in two short paragraphs is really necessary. KJP1 ( talk) 01:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
Removed content eith documentary source of youtube. Thanks for feedback, I welcome any more feedback Titus Gold ( talk) 02:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC).
Odd that this long article doesn't mention LG's house being blown up in 1913! Johnbod ( talk) 00:57, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Whereas there is no fallacy in the statement that Lloyd-George was supporting a pre-WW2 Nazi Germany, the modern use of "Nazi" paint Lloyd-George as a Nazi sympathiser which comes with all sorts of pre-conceptions (antisemitism, white supremacism, support for the War, etc). This section of the article makes no mention of his thoughts on Nazi Germany's WW2 activities - only their post-WW1 activities - a time before Hitler had revealed himself. Lloyd-George's remarks about Hitler and post-war Germany were not unfair in a pre-WW2 world. It is for this reason that I believe this section should be retitled Support for Post-War Germany. – Dyolf87 ( talk) 06:31, 4 June 2023 (UTC)