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I have created this article because this material is replicated - and fought over - in multiple accounts. Hopefully this debate can be contained here, and the many many many Jesus articles can all just refer to this article on this subject in future. Wdford ( talk) 13:03, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
The sourcing of each Wikipedia article is independent. Other Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources; in particular, if another Wikipedia article says source X backs up claim Y, that assertion is not reliable. Before an editor may add Y to this article with a citation to X, the editor must actually read X and confirm that it really does back up claim Y.
In view of the wide variety of sources, some of which are paper, that was rapidly assembled for this article, I doubt that the editor(s) actually read all the sources to confirm they really say what they are purported say. Thus I request confirmation that all these sources were actually read by the editor(s) of this article. If such assurance is not put forth, I will nominate the article for deletion. Jc3s5h ( talk) 10:05, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
I have looked over the thinking of the author in this Talk section and I cannot comprehend why this severely incomplete page exists. For instance, one of the most well-known estimations of Jesus' birth year was by Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) who recorded that Jesus of Nazareth was born in the 28th year of the reign of the Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus giving a birth year of approximately 3 BC yet this is not mentioned. Why was this left out? Why was this page "spun off"? Were the original articles complete? Did they mention Clement? Was this hasty cut'n'paste spin off made because of faulty reasoning?
Also, I think the title of this article, Date of birth of Jesus is wrong. I think the best we can do is make estimates of the YEAR of his birth from ancient writings. December 25th gets way too much play here. The two arguments advanced for the 25th are ludicrous: (1) Hippolytus of Rome thought Jesus was conceived on the Spring Equinox and (2) the offering of incense occurred on Yom Kippur (early October) so you count 15 months forward. What?? Those arguments get you an exact day in December??
This article needs to hit the trash can. Dangnad ( talk) 02:37, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
About the information removed at [1], it is covered by WP:1DAY. Why should we listen to those two preachers, are they scholars (historians)? If they don't abide by publish or perish, their self-published source is not a reliable source and the same goes for the other sources quoted therein. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 02:42, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
As the original author of the subthread, may I please complain that someone have erased the punchline. If Jesus ben-Joseph celebrated his bar-Mitzvah in 6CE per Quirinius, then he was born in 6BCE, or shortly thereafter, as a Jewish boy's bar-Mitzvah is aged 12. I also supplied a chronology to the comet which has been deleted, which establishes that there was indeed a new star in the sky for a while at that time. Please reinstate it as the unsubstantiated reference to "astronomical events" is too general to be acceptable at this level, I was precise about the comet: as a factual explanation it deserves to be preserved. You should at the very least repeat the reference from the Halley's Comet meme, http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/S&CB%2010-93Humphreys.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.67.181 ( talk) 22:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
The earliest source stating 25 December as the date of birth of Jesus is likely by Hippolytus of Rome, written very early in the 3rd century, based on the assumption that the conception of Jesus took place at the Spring equinox which he placed on 25 March, and then added nine months. A pregnancy is 10 months or 40 weeks to be exact not 9 only. Most women realise they are pregnant after 1month is over already, because their is no menstruation. Mcrious ( talk) 10:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
First issue: The opening sentence in this article states "...but most theologians assume a year of birth..." and gives a reference of "Dunn, James DG (2003). "Jesus Remembered". Eerdmans Publishing: 324" ( http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/dunn01.pdf). The proposed date range is not mentioned on page 324, but page 325 does include the text (in a chart) of "Birth 6-4 BCE". The reference does not support the assertion of "most theologians".
Second issue: later in the WP article, it is reported that Luke gives the birth to be during the Census of Quirinius which is known to have happened in (or after) 6 CE, but the text then reads "most scholars generally accept a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC". That "6" is misleading (is it 6 BCE or 6 CE?) because according to the supporting text just given in the article, it should say "a date of earlier than 4 BCE or after 6 CE". The confusion extends to the article's lead which reads "a year of birth between 6 BC and 4 BC". Where did the "6 BC" come from in the lead? Why does the article present (in a number of places) the concept of a range when there is only referenced evidence to support two distinct years? 120.17.140.25 ( talk) 00:42, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
I added this to the introduction... (C) astrological/astronomical alignments<ref]Molnar, Michael, The Star of Bethlehem: The Legacy of the Magi, 1999, Rutgers Univ. Press</ref]. 2601:580:4:8AB7:61AA:6D8F:B2E9:5D60 ( talk) 16:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
An obvious omission from the article as it stands is any material about Dionysius Exiguus who devised the Anno Domini system. Specifically, what were the calculations that led him to a date that is about four years later than the modern date? Can anyone rectify? -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 10:23, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Anno Domini was copied or moved into Date of birth of Jesus with this edit on 8 November 2022. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
@ Cactus Ronin: I see you've added some content here which seems to depend on a reference by someone named Voorst. But the reference named "voorst" isn't defined, and there doesn't seem to be anything in the article that ties the name to something that's verifiable. Do you have a reference to add to the article to support this addition? -- Mikeblas ( talk) 16:26, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
No historian maintains that Jesus was born in the year zero, unless they are strongly inebriated. tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
On the article " Christmas" there is a rather lengthy quote in the "History" section from Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, from his book Christmas: Theological Anticipations [1], where he discusses his view that, at least according to Luke's gospel, December 25th is likely (approximately) the real date of birth of Jesus. I believe his argument is important enough to be mentioned on this page, especially considering that it appears on other pages less directly concerned with the exact date of birth of Jesus. I more or less copy-pasted that quote and some context into this page under "Date and season", but this was removed soon after by User:Drmies, who said "i don't really see why this scholar should get this much space". Fair enough. I want to see if there is any consensus or opinion on if this viewpoint belongs in the article, and whether it could be condensed to a few sentences rather than the entire quote. Thoughts? SwensonJ ( talk) 02:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
SwensonJ ( talk) 03:21, 26 September 2023 (UTC)Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, argues for the veracity of December 25 as Jesus's date of birth. [2] English assumes that Zechariah's ministry in the Temple, as described in Luke 1:5–23, took place on Yom Kippur the year before Jesus's birth; he then traces Luke's narrative through the Annunciation and the birth of John the Baptist to conclude that the Nativity occurred on December 25.
Eh, Anupam, "a sentence is fine" is what I said. I suppose I can live with two sentences. User:SwensonJ, I feel like you're getting things mixed up. You said that "his viewpoint [should be] discussed at all on an article": viewpoints aren't "discussed" in an article, they are represented. We're not discussing anything--the moment you put it in an article, you give it authority and a stamp of approval. But my bigger problem is with the first part of that sentence, "I realize that English's position is not one of high standing, but I don't really think this should inhibit his viewpoint from being discussed..."--but that is precisely why his opinion matters less than that of others. No authority, no representation--I just removed a fringey sentence giving the opinion of someone who is clearly NOT an expert in the field. This is how we choose what goes in. Drmies ( talk) 12:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, argues for the veracity of December 25 as Jesus's date of birth
References
I created a section that was deleted by User:ජපස. He did not review. I know because I simply quoted more faithfully the sources that had been already used. And he undid and tagged as "unrealiable". I call for a general discussion here if he insists on reverting... George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 21:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
There are two issues here:
To all contributors of this article:
I would like you to vote on my edition of this article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Date_of_birth_of_Jesus&oldid=1191857682
I basically did two things: 1. I created a separated paragraph for the opinion of Ian Paul, an Evangelical Christian author, that was on the same paragraph containing information about the perspective of a BYU University scholar on the date of birth of Jesus Christ. I cannot tell how relevant the opinion of Ian Paul is. But, I don't mind those two lines that offer information about it. 2. I quoted more faithfully the sources that were used for the LDS perspective. As it was previously composed, the source and the words of the article did not match. For example, the date suggested by the author of the paper was not even on the article.
It has been claimed by User:ජපස (who also likes to appear as "jps") and User: Viriditas that BYU scholars are not reliable because they are "contractually obligated to tout the line of the LDS church". Now, I need them to either prove it or remove the accusation.
I will wait for three months so discussion can go on. After that, I will read the comments in favor and against and consider presented evidence. If it cannot be proved that these scholars are "contractually obligated", I see no reason why the religious ideas of this Church cannot have their own sub-section here. There is a section on the Islamic view. Are the sources non-reliable because they are Muslim? George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 22:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi I'm Jesus Christ i'm at church 24.138.140.125 ( talk) 01:17, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I have removed a number of sources from the lede of the article which were published in the context of religious belief or theology. Such publications are not reliable for claims as to historical plausibility, determination of precise dates, or contentions as to what "most biblical scholars" believe. We would want to make sure not to include, for example, those biblical scholars who take on faith their claims. The pastor at the local US megachurch does not count towards the countenance of what we can say about such ideas in the assertive voice of Wikipedia. The rather remarkable paucity of good sources being used in the first paragraph or so gives me great pause. I think this entire article may be suffering from poor sourcing, but it will take quite a bit to go through and determine that fully.
To be sure, religious and theological publication can be used to identify the beliefs of those who are writing such treatises. Those may be relevant to an article such as this, but they absolutely must be couched as religious beliefs or theological conceits. They cannot be used as sources for statements of fact.
jps ( talk) 15:56, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Suggest that Jesus was born on the first day of Tishri the Hebrew new year only makes perfect sense as all of God’s word is perfect.date can be documented by Zachariah’s service in the temple in the known course of Abiah.Also the shepherds would not have been in the field tending sheep in the winter months of December 108.147.2.64 ( talk) 14:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 20 March 2016. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have created this article because this material is replicated - and fought over - in multiple accounts. Hopefully this debate can be contained here, and the many many many Jesus articles can all just refer to this article on this subject in future. Wdford ( talk) 13:03, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
The sourcing of each Wikipedia article is independent. Other Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources; in particular, if another Wikipedia article says source X backs up claim Y, that assertion is not reliable. Before an editor may add Y to this article with a citation to X, the editor must actually read X and confirm that it really does back up claim Y.
In view of the wide variety of sources, some of which are paper, that was rapidly assembled for this article, I doubt that the editor(s) actually read all the sources to confirm they really say what they are purported say. Thus I request confirmation that all these sources were actually read by the editor(s) of this article. If such assurance is not put forth, I will nominate the article for deletion. Jc3s5h ( talk) 10:05, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
I have looked over the thinking of the author in this Talk section and I cannot comprehend why this severely incomplete page exists. For instance, one of the most well-known estimations of Jesus' birth year was by Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) who recorded that Jesus of Nazareth was born in the 28th year of the reign of the Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus giving a birth year of approximately 3 BC yet this is not mentioned. Why was this left out? Why was this page "spun off"? Were the original articles complete? Did they mention Clement? Was this hasty cut'n'paste spin off made because of faulty reasoning?
Also, I think the title of this article, Date of birth of Jesus is wrong. I think the best we can do is make estimates of the YEAR of his birth from ancient writings. December 25th gets way too much play here. The two arguments advanced for the 25th are ludicrous: (1) Hippolytus of Rome thought Jesus was conceived on the Spring Equinox and (2) the offering of incense occurred on Yom Kippur (early October) so you count 15 months forward. What?? Those arguments get you an exact day in December??
This article needs to hit the trash can. Dangnad ( talk) 02:37, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
About the information removed at [1], it is covered by WP:1DAY. Why should we listen to those two preachers, are they scholars (historians)? If they don't abide by publish or perish, their self-published source is not a reliable source and the same goes for the other sources quoted therein. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 02:42, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
As the original author of the subthread, may I please complain that someone have erased the punchline. If Jesus ben-Joseph celebrated his bar-Mitzvah in 6CE per Quirinius, then he was born in 6BCE, or shortly thereafter, as a Jewish boy's bar-Mitzvah is aged 12. I also supplied a chronology to the comet which has been deleted, which establishes that there was indeed a new star in the sky for a while at that time. Please reinstate it as the unsubstantiated reference to "astronomical events" is too general to be acceptable at this level, I was precise about the comet: as a factual explanation it deserves to be preserved. You should at the very least repeat the reference from the Halley's Comet meme, http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/S&CB%2010-93Humphreys.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.67.181 ( talk) 22:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
The earliest source stating 25 December as the date of birth of Jesus is likely by Hippolytus of Rome, written very early in the 3rd century, based on the assumption that the conception of Jesus took place at the Spring equinox which he placed on 25 March, and then added nine months. A pregnancy is 10 months or 40 weeks to be exact not 9 only. Most women realise they are pregnant after 1month is over already, because their is no menstruation. Mcrious ( talk) 10:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
First issue: The opening sentence in this article states "...but most theologians assume a year of birth..." and gives a reference of "Dunn, James DG (2003). "Jesus Remembered". Eerdmans Publishing: 324" ( http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/dunn01.pdf). The proposed date range is not mentioned on page 324, but page 325 does include the text (in a chart) of "Birth 6-4 BCE". The reference does not support the assertion of "most theologians".
Second issue: later in the WP article, it is reported that Luke gives the birth to be during the Census of Quirinius which is known to have happened in (or after) 6 CE, but the text then reads "most scholars generally accept a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC". That "6" is misleading (is it 6 BCE or 6 CE?) because according to the supporting text just given in the article, it should say "a date of earlier than 4 BCE or after 6 CE". The confusion extends to the article's lead which reads "a year of birth between 6 BC and 4 BC". Where did the "6 BC" come from in the lead? Why does the article present (in a number of places) the concept of a range when there is only referenced evidence to support two distinct years? 120.17.140.25 ( talk) 00:42, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
I added this to the introduction... (C) astrological/astronomical alignments<ref]Molnar, Michael, The Star of Bethlehem: The Legacy of the Magi, 1999, Rutgers Univ. Press</ref]. 2601:580:4:8AB7:61AA:6D8F:B2E9:5D60 ( talk) 16:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
An obvious omission from the article as it stands is any material about Dionysius Exiguus who devised the Anno Domini system. Specifically, what were the calculations that led him to a date that is about four years later than the modern date? Can anyone rectify? -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 10:23, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Anno Domini was copied or moved into Date of birth of Jesus with this edit on 8 November 2022. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
@ Cactus Ronin: I see you've added some content here which seems to depend on a reference by someone named Voorst. But the reference named "voorst" isn't defined, and there doesn't seem to be anything in the article that ties the name to something that's verifiable. Do you have a reference to add to the article to support this addition? -- Mikeblas ( talk) 16:26, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
No historian maintains that Jesus was born in the year zero, unless they are strongly inebriated. tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
On the article " Christmas" there is a rather lengthy quote in the "History" section from Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, from his book Christmas: Theological Anticipations [1], where he discusses his view that, at least according to Luke's gospel, December 25th is likely (approximately) the real date of birth of Jesus. I believe his argument is important enough to be mentioned on this page, especially considering that it appears on other pages less directly concerned with the exact date of birth of Jesus. I more or less copy-pasted that quote and some context into this page under "Date and season", but this was removed soon after by User:Drmies, who said "i don't really see why this scholar should get this much space". Fair enough. I want to see if there is any consensus or opinion on if this viewpoint belongs in the article, and whether it could be condensed to a few sentences rather than the entire quote. Thoughts? SwensonJ ( talk) 02:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
SwensonJ ( talk) 03:21, 26 September 2023 (UTC)Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, argues for the veracity of December 25 as Jesus's date of birth. [2] English assumes that Zechariah's ministry in the Temple, as described in Luke 1:5–23, took place on Yom Kippur the year before Jesus's birth; he then traces Luke's narrative through the Annunciation and the birth of John the Baptist to conclude that the Nativity occurred on December 25.
Eh, Anupam, "a sentence is fine" is what I said. I suppose I can live with two sentences. User:SwensonJ, I feel like you're getting things mixed up. You said that "his viewpoint [should be] discussed at all on an article": viewpoints aren't "discussed" in an article, they are represented. We're not discussing anything--the moment you put it in an article, you give it authority and a stamp of approval. But my bigger problem is with the first part of that sentence, "I realize that English's position is not one of high standing, but I don't really think this should inhibit his viewpoint from being discussed..."--but that is precisely why his opinion matters less than that of others. No authority, no representation--I just removed a fringey sentence giving the opinion of someone who is clearly NOT an expert in the field. This is how we choose what goes in. Drmies ( talk) 12:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Adam C. English, professor of religion at Campbell University, argues for the veracity of December 25 as Jesus's date of birth
References
I created a section that was deleted by User:ජපස. He did not review. I know because I simply quoted more faithfully the sources that had been already used. And he undid and tagged as "unrealiable". I call for a general discussion here if he insists on reverting... George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 21:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
There are two issues here:
To all contributors of this article:
I would like you to vote on my edition of this article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Date_of_birth_of_Jesus&oldid=1191857682
I basically did two things: 1. I created a separated paragraph for the opinion of Ian Paul, an Evangelical Christian author, that was on the same paragraph containing information about the perspective of a BYU University scholar on the date of birth of Jesus Christ. I cannot tell how relevant the opinion of Ian Paul is. But, I don't mind those two lines that offer information about it. 2. I quoted more faithfully the sources that were used for the LDS perspective. As it was previously composed, the source and the words of the article did not match. For example, the date suggested by the author of the paper was not even on the article.
It has been claimed by User:ජපස (who also likes to appear as "jps") and User: Viriditas that BYU scholars are not reliable because they are "contractually obligated to tout the line of the LDS church". Now, I need them to either prove it or remove the accusation.
I will wait for three months so discussion can go on. After that, I will read the comments in favor and against and consider presented evidence. If it cannot be proved that these scholars are "contractually obligated", I see no reason why the religious ideas of this Church cannot have their own sub-section here. There is a section on the Islamic view. Are the sources non-reliable because they are Muslim? George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 22:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi I'm Jesus Christ i'm at church 24.138.140.125 ( talk) 01:17, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I have removed a number of sources from the lede of the article which were published in the context of religious belief or theology. Such publications are not reliable for claims as to historical plausibility, determination of precise dates, or contentions as to what "most biblical scholars" believe. We would want to make sure not to include, for example, those biblical scholars who take on faith their claims. The pastor at the local US megachurch does not count towards the countenance of what we can say about such ideas in the assertive voice of Wikipedia. The rather remarkable paucity of good sources being used in the first paragraph or so gives me great pause. I think this entire article may be suffering from poor sourcing, but it will take quite a bit to go through and determine that fully.
To be sure, religious and theological publication can be used to identify the beliefs of those who are writing such treatises. Those may be relevant to an article such as this, but they absolutely must be couched as religious beliefs or theological conceits. They cannot be used as sources for statements of fact.
jps ( talk) 15:56, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Suggest that Jesus was born on the first day of Tishri the Hebrew new year only makes perfect sense as all of God’s word is perfect.date can be documented by Zachariah’s service in the temple in the known course of Abiah.Also the shepherds would not have been in the field tending sheep in the winter months of December 108.147.2.64 ( talk) 14:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)