This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm updating the info concerning plagiarism, which is currently gaining a lot of attention by the media in Italy, thus providing a lot of official references. Please note that the Italian page for Daniele Luttazzi is currently in a bad non-NPOV state, and in particular there is a lot of controversy about the plagiarism accuse. Most of the debate is undermined by the fact that primary sources used to be blogs and (supposedly) copyright-violating videos. I am adding
Sorry for the long discussion, but I don't want any of the Italian wiki page NPOV-related flames to get there, so it's better to be clear in the beginning. Changes: Re-added Carlin, and added Rock to the list of (supposedly) plagiarized actors, as the movie I add shows them. Added the legally available source for the video comparing Luttazzi with Carlin and Rocks. Caveats: English is not my first language, someone please check my grammar and style :-) -- Max-CCC ( talk) 19:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Additional note: the second reference I put in is from a blog archive; although the article is a reproduction from the one originally published on Il Foglio, I'm not certain that this is acceptable. In case it is not, you should not remove both citations, only the second one (and possibly the linked text ofc). Reason I added the second reference as IMHO it needs to be explained that many people refuse(d) to even consider the plagiarism accuse, in the aftermath of the Editto Bulgaro and even today. Besides, the situation is complex, and I believe it is relevant that Luttazzi was censored for political reasons, and not because he was believed to plagiarize at that time. I'm adding a few wiki cross references to reduce redundancy of the article. -- Max-CCC ( talk) 20:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Made other improvements reducing duplication between intro and biography. Now I believe the issues related with censorship and plagiarism are both more balanced, but I think that for an NPOV article the biography is too short and doesn't list all it's required (while the italian page goes way too far in the opposite direction). Help wanted I do not know how to collapse two identical references in the article (3 and 8 are the same). -- Max-CCC ( talk) 20:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to erase the sentence regarding "il Foglio" in the "plagirism" section. "il Foglio" never found more than a handful of jokes being copied from more famous authors and only claimed that many of Luttazzi's shows were heavily inspired by some americans comedian (i.e. David Letterman). The research which brought to us more than 500 jokes which were "borrowed" (plagiarised / cited, depending on how people see it) was not made by "il Foglio", thus this newspaper is not that relevant in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.160.21.102 ( talk) 21:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Readded the "plagiarism" tag (a bunch of other comedians who have been accused of doing so have the same tag, like Carlos Mencia). I hope to have more sources on the thoughts of other UK/US comedians soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.163.28.69 ( talk) 17:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Removed the following text about "La Repubblica" from the plagiarism section:
(Repubblica) had criticized the 2001 Luttazzi-Travaglio sensational interview about the mysterious origings of the Berlusconi empire, accused Luttazzi of "inappropriate" and "vulgar" satire, and censored Luttazzi's criticism of the Democratic Party
(1) Is that true at all? As far as I know Repubblica has never criticized Luttazzi's satire for hitting also on the leftwind parties.
(2) It is out of topic with the plagiarism accusation to report Repubblica's attitute about Luttazzi and an interview (not a sketch) who had absolutely nothing to do with plagiarism.
(3) If it was true and relevant, previous statement must report the source, per wikipedia policy; is still should be placed in another section, about the (lack of) support for Luttazzi in the press.
I shall stress that the mention about the political alignement of the two newspapers is only needed as early accusations were made, but were often dismissed by the fans (and also in wikipedia discussions) as mere political attacks. Things are even more complex IMHO, but no original research in the page. --
Max-CCC (
talk) 02:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
The controversies section sounds more like apologetic material by Mr Luttazzi's press office... A controversy section, by definition, should be controversial or otherwise erased. Moreover, Mr Luttazzi's defence was obviously pathethic. In the blog below (one of the many) an anonymous user posted the jokes that Luttazzi copied word for word from other comic actors, mostly American, without quoting the source. He reports also the book and page of the book in Luttazzi's version. http://ntvox.blogspot.it/2008/02/luttazzis-plagiariezed-jokes.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.228.129.211 ( talk) 16:00, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
References
I’m pretty sure that “Il Foglio” does not “belong” to Berlusconi. It’s a limited liability company composed by several members/partners. Now I ignore if Berlusconi has the majority and couldn’t find it anywhere on the internet, so if someone has sources to say that then fine, just saying that I’m not sure that it “belongs to berlusconi” is an accurate description. 189.140.64.231 ( talk) 16:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
True ideed. According to information to Giuliano Ferrara's public statement on television (referenced in the Italian wikipedia page for "Il foglio"), as of 2006 the property of the journal was 38% of Berlusconi's wife, Veronica Lario, and 15% of Denis Verdini (PDL national coordinator). Another 20-25% of the shares was said to be in the hands of Sergio Zuncheddu (which is often called the "Berlusconi from Sardinia" and is reputed to be a political ally of Berlusconi -- see for instance http://www.avvenimentionline.it/content/view/2534/656/ ).
Summing up, while we cannot say that Berlusconi was the owner, it is accurate to say that: "Il Foglio was at the time firmly controlled by the family and the political party of Mr. Berlusconi." Can please a native English editor proofread this sentence / add it? -- Max-CCC ( talk) 11:52, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
It should be specified who considers the origin of Mr.Berlusconi's money to be unknown or mysterious. AFAIK no one proved that Berlusconi's money is unknown or of illegal origin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.47.220.98 ( talk) 08:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. First, in my opinion, it is quite clear that it was the thesis of Travaglio's book. Second, the link to Travaglio's wikipedia already provides enough documentation, as there it is reported that - for the statements made in that show and reported in the book, Travaglio got sued by Berlusconi, and Travaglio won as all his statements were shown to come from official documents or were confirmed by the outcomes of previous Italian trials. Many more newswriters since then have questioned the early origins of Berlusconi's fortune, but Luttazzi's page is not the right place for such a topic. -- Max-CCC ( talk) 12:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Were erased for mistake during an addition in late 2009 (see history).-- 95.250.82.172 ( talk) 15:55, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I have spotted several NPOV editings listed as "improvements" which are traced to anonymous users, or italian wikipedia users which have been detected to be fake accounts thought to be Luttazzi himself or people working for him. I'l log in shortly revert unjustified and NPOV changes, and log the action in the discussion page. 5/10/2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.48.82.79 ( talk) 19:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Can someone provide a source on the "Lenny Bruce trick"? I mean, not on Luttazzi stating that, on Lenny Bruce actually talking about it (or maybe one of his lawyers or biographic authors). Otherwise I will reword the sentence (as the claim iss unverified). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.57.216.26 ( talk) 22:14, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Daniele Luttazzi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians.
I'm writing from Italy to help you understand what happened in 2010, when Mr. Luttazzi (who is one of the top satirist in Italy) was the target of a smear campaign. In 2010, just two months after one of his monologues was aired in which Mr. Luttazzi bashed both Mr. Berlusconi right wing politics and the inept political opposition by the left wing party (PD), someone put a video online with jokes by Luttazzi to prove his alleged "joke thieving", without telling that those jokes were part of a citational game done by Luttazzi for his fans, a game that was openly described by Luttazzi himself in his blog since 2003. Those citations were also a legal trick by Luttazzi to defend himself in defamation trials: he called it "the "Lenny Bruce trick", because Lenny Bruce hid jokes by Aristophanes in his monologues to defend himself in the obscenity trials put on against him. Background: In 2001, Mr. Luttazzi was banned by Mr. Berlusconi from national television because he talked about Mr.Berlusconi's links with the mob. Mr. Luttazzi was the host of a cult late night show called "Satyricon". Let's say he was the Italian David Letterman. Mr. Berlusconi, the Prime Minister, sued him for defamation, asking 40 billion lire (about 20 billion dollars) for compensation. After a trial that lasted 15 years (yes, 15 years!), recently Mr. Luttazzi won the case. It was not defamation at all: Mr. Luttazzi was right. BUT: since 2001, the few times Mr. Luttazzi got on tv, he was the target of some smear campaign: in December 2007 and June 2010. Mr. Luttazzi is a libertarian, a fierce defender of free speech and a wonderful comedian, he didn't cheat anyone, his citational game was openly described in his blog, but he still has many powerful enemies in Italy, and a lot of people who are against him for ideological reasons, as you can tell by the entries above. An interview by The Times (2009) tells everything about the background (English version at the bottom): http://temi.repubblica.it/micromega-online/luttazzi-io-al-confino-mediatico-nellitalia-di-berlusconi/ Here's a recent academic article (2014) explaining why Luttazzi's citational jokes are new jokes, not "plagiarised" ones: http://newkoh.blogspot.it/ The so-called "plagiarism case" was put on to damage Luttazzi's reputation. That's why I think the entries on Wikipedia about the so-called "Luttazzi's plagiarism case" are part of the smear campaign against him. This is not NPOV at all, I guess. Last but not least, Mr. Luttazzi won ALL the trials, even the one accusing him of plagiarising Bill Hicks: this time, he got 1 million euros as compensation. Good for him.
Cheers
85.4.100.109 ( talk) 06:37, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Daniele Luttazzi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:41, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm updating the info concerning plagiarism, which is currently gaining a lot of attention by the media in Italy, thus providing a lot of official references. Please note that the Italian page for Daniele Luttazzi is currently in a bad non-NPOV state, and in particular there is a lot of controversy about the plagiarism accuse. Most of the debate is undermined by the fact that primary sources used to be blogs and (supposedly) copyright-violating videos. I am adding
Sorry for the long discussion, but I don't want any of the Italian wiki page NPOV-related flames to get there, so it's better to be clear in the beginning. Changes: Re-added Carlin, and added Rock to the list of (supposedly) plagiarized actors, as the movie I add shows them. Added the legally available source for the video comparing Luttazzi with Carlin and Rocks. Caveats: English is not my first language, someone please check my grammar and style :-) -- Max-CCC ( talk) 19:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Additional note: the second reference I put in is from a blog archive; although the article is a reproduction from the one originally published on Il Foglio, I'm not certain that this is acceptable. In case it is not, you should not remove both citations, only the second one (and possibly the linked text ofc). Reason I added the second reference as IMHO it needs to be explained that many people refuse(d) to even consider the plagiarism accuse, in the aftermath of the Editto Bulgaro and even today. Besides, the situation is complex, and I believe it is relevant that Luttazzi was censored for political reasons, and not because he was believed to plagiarize at that time. I'm adding a few wiki cross references to reduce redundancy of the article. -- Max-CCC ( talk) 20:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Made other improvements reducing duplication between intro and biography. Now I believe the issues related with censorship and plagiarism are both more balanced, but I think that for an NPOV article the biography is too short and doesn't list all it's required (while the italian page goes way too far in the opposite direction). Help wanted I do not know how to collapse two identical references in the article (3 and 8 are the same). -- Max-CCC ( talk) 20:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to erase the sentence regarding "il Foglio" in the "plagirism" section. "il Foglio" never found more than a handful of jokes being copied from more famous authors and only claimed that many of Luttazzi's shows were heavily inspired by some americans comedian (i.e. David Letterman). The research which brought to us more than 500 jokes which were "borrowed" (plagiarised / cited, depending on how people see it) was not made by "il Foglio", thus this newspaper is not that relevant in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.160.21.102 ( talk) 21:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Readded the "plagiarism" tag (a bunch of other comedians who have been accused of doing so have the same tag, like Carlos Mencia). I hope to have more sources on the thoughts of other UK/US comedians soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.163.28.69 ( talk) 17:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Removed the following text about "La Repubblica" from the plagiarism section:
(Repubblica) had criticized the 2001 Luttazzi-Travaglio sensational interview about the mysterious origings of the Berlusconi empire, accused Luttazzi of "inappropriate" and "vulgar" satire, and censored Luttazzi's criticism of the Democratic Party
(1) Is that true at all? As far as I know Repubblica has never criticized Luttazzi's satire for hitting also on the leftwind parties.
(2) It is out of topic with the plagiarism accusation to report Repubblica's attitute about Luttazzi and an interview (not a sketch) who had absolutely nothing to do with plagiarism.
(3) If it was true and relevant, previous statement must report the source, per wikipedia policy; is still should be placed in another section, about the (lack of) support for Luttazzi in the press.
I shall stress that the mention about the political alignement of the two newspapers is only needed as early accusations were made, but were often dismissed by the fans (and also in wikipedia discussions) as mere political attacks. Things are even more complex IMHO, but no original research in the page. --
Max-CCC (
talk) 02:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
The controversies section sounds more like apologetic material by Mr Luttazzi's press office... A controversy section, by definition, should be controversial or otherwise erased. Moreover, Mr Luttazzi's defence was obviously pathethic. In the blog below (one of the many) an anonymous user posted the jokes that Luttazzi copied word for word from other comic actors, mostly American, without quoting the source. He reports also the book and page of the book in Luttazzi's version. http://ntvox.blogspot.it/2008/02/luttazzis-plagiariezed-jokes.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.228.129.211 ( talk) 16:00, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
References
I’m pretty sure that “Il Foglio” does not “belong” to Berlusconi. It’s a limited liability company composed by several members/partners. Now I ignore if Berlusconi has the majority and couldn’t find it anywhere on the internet, so if someone has sources to say that then fine, just saying that I’m not sure that it “belongs to berlusconi” is an accurate description. 189.140.64.231 ( talk) 16:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
True ideed. According to information to Giuliano Ferrara's public statement on television (referenced in the Italian wikipedia page for "Il foglio"), as of 2006 the property of the journal was 38% of Berlusconi's wife, Veronica Lario, and 15% of Denis Verdini (PDL national coordinator). Another 20-25% of the shares was said to be in the hands of Sergio Zuncheddu (which is often called the "Berlusconi from Sardinia" and is reputed to be a political ally of Berlusconi -- see for instance http://www.avvenimentionline.it/content/view/2534/656/ ).
Summing up, while we cannot say that Berlusconi was the owner, it is accurate to say that: "Il Foglio was at the time firmly controlled by the family and the political party of Mr. Berlusconi." Can please a native English editor proofread this sentence / add it? -- Max-CCC ( talk) 11:52, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
It should be specified who considers the origin of Mr.Berlusconi's money to be unknown or mysterious. AFAIK no one proved that Berlusconi's money is unknown or of illegal origin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.47.220.98 ( talk) 08:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. First, in my opinion, it is quite clear that it was the thesis of Travaglio's book. Second, the link to Travaglio's wikipedia already provides enough documentation, as there it is reported that - for the statements made in that show and reported in the book, Travaglio got sued by Berlusconi, and Travaglio won as all his statements were shown to come from official documents or were confirmed by the outcomes of previous Italian trials. Many more newswriters since then have questioned the early origins of Berlusconi's fortune, but Luttazzi's page is not the right place for such a topic. -- Max-CCC ( talk) 12:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Were erased for mistake during an addition in late 2009 (see history).-- 95.250.82.172 ( talk) 15:55, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I have spotted several NPOV editings listed as "improvements" which are traced to anonymous users, or italian wikipedia users which have been detected to be fake accounts thought to be Luttazzi himself or people working for him. I'l log in shortly revert unjustified and NPOV changes, and log the action in the discussion page. 5/10/2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.48.82.79 ( talk) 19:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Can someone provide a source on the "Lenny Bruce trick"? I mean, not on Luttazzi stating that, on Lenny Bruce actually talking about it (or maybe one of his lawyers or biographic authors). Otherwise I will reword the sentence (as the claim iss unverified). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.57.216.26 ( talk) 22:14, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Daniele Luttazzi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians.
I'm writing from Italy to help you understand what happened in 2010, when Mr. Luttazzi (who is one of the top satirist in Italy) was the target of a smear campaign. In 2010, just two months after one of his monologues was aired in which Mr. Luttazzi bashed both Mr. Berlusconi right wing politics and the inept political opposition by the left wing party (PD), someone put a video online with jokes by Luttazzi to prove his alleged "joke thieving", without telling that those jokes were part of a citational game done by Luttazzi for his fans, a game that was openly described by Luttazzi himself in his blog since 2003. Those citations were also a legal trick by Luttazzi to defend himself in defamation trials: he called it "the "Lenny Bruce trick", because Lenny Bruce hid jokes by Aristophanes in his monologues to defend himself in the obscenity trials put on against him. Background: In 2001, Mr. Luttazzi was banned by Mr. Berlusconi from national television because he talked about Mr.Berlusconi's links with the mob. Mr. Luttazzi was the host of a cult late night show called "Satyricon". Let's say he was the Italian David Letterman. Mr. Berlusconi, the Prime Minister, sued him for defamation, asking 40 billion lire (about 20 billion dollars) for compensation. After a trial that lasted 15 years (yes, 15 years!), recently Mr. Luttazzi won the case. It was not defamation at all: Mr. Luttazzi was right. BUT: since 2001, the few times Mr. Luttazzi got on tv, he was the target of some smear campaign: in December 2007 and June 2010. Mr. Luttazzi is a libertarian, a fierce defender of free speech and a wonderful comedian, he didn't cheat anyone, his citational game was openly described in his blog, but he still has many powerful enemies in Italy, and a lot of people who are against him for ideological reasons, as you can tell by the entries above. An interview by The Times (2009) tells everything about the background (English version at the bottom): http://temi.repubblica.it/micromega-online/luttazzi-io-al-confino-mediatico-nellitalia-di-berlusconi/ Here's a recent academic article (2014) explaining why Luttazzi's citational jokes are new jokes, not "plagiarised" ones: http://newkoh.blogspot.it/ The so-called "plagiarism case" was put on to damage Luttazzi's reputation. That's why I think the entries on Wikipedia about the so-called "Luttazzi's plagiarism case" are part of the smear campaign against him. This is not NPOV at all, I guess. Last but not least, Mr. Luttazzi won ALL the trials, even the one accusing him of plagiarising Bill Hicks: this time, he got 1 million euros as compensation. Good for him.
Cheers
85.4.100.109 ( talk) 06:37, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Daniele Luttazzi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:41, 26 December 2017 (UTC)