This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dan Savage article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
WHO wants Dan Savages birthday to be 10 years ahead of what he himself has repeatedly pointed out as wrong? and WHY? someone seems to have an interest in preventing the wrong date from being edited. WHY is that so??? one of numerous sources for his correct age: http://www.savagelovecast.com/episodes/88#.UuqoNBzAnh4 unless he is a liar, his year of birth should be 1974, NOT 1964! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicky Romano ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm dreadfully sorry, please forgive me, I've pasted the wrong link. Here's the right one: http://www.savagelovecast.com/episodes/88#.UuqoNBzAnh4
I invite everybody to listen in on the podcast in the link above from min. 7:40 to 8:37 where the issue is addressed by a caller and then commented and clarified by Dan Savage himself. He says he's 34, not 43, and the conversation took place in 2008. Can we now edit the date, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicky Romano ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
{{Request close}}
When did he come out? That's an important part of his life, should we put it in there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.124.118 ( talk) 10:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
He's been out since high school. In other words, that status precedes his public life, so for all intents and public purposes, always. I don't think it's necessary to put in here, at this point it would be like putting in that someone discovered they liked the opposite sex in high school. 75.17.119.250 ( talk) 22:05, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
This but it was covered by some reliable sources and lots of advocacy groups/publications, so its absence here may be rather obvious, if anyone wants to take it on:
Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 16:53, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Why is there suddenly an influx of editors trying to remove the word "gay" from the lead? Savage's notability is largely based on his very public sexual orientation.- Mr X 01:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Another way to look at is to consider the guideline WP:OBVIOUS and ask, "If someone knew nothing about this person except what's in the first paragraph, would they be woefully ignorant?" If you knew only that Savage was a writer and didn't know he was gay, you'd be missing something. If you knew Pistorius was an athlete but had no idea he was an amputee, you'd be missing vital information. If you mistook Savage for Canadian, what's the real harm? It isn't really that important to know he's American. But if you thought he was a straight advice columnist you'd really not have a grasp of who he is.
There are many notable people whose orientation, gender, race, etc. are not important and we don't mention it in the lead. You have to pay attention to the subject and not apply simplistic rules across the board. Or better yet, look at your best sources. If the sources give it prominent mention, so should we.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Note: An IP restored the "gay" part, but put it after "American." Side note: People should usually sign in when they have a Wikipedia account and are editing a Wikipedia article. Flyer22 ( talk) 03:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The first sentence will unavoidably be read as a statement about why this person is notable. We generally steer clear of race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation as independent components of that statement, I think for good reason. (African American appears to be the most widespread exception, for reasons discussed elsewhere.) For whom aren't those important characteristics? Not to say that being gay doesn't inform Savage's career as an advice columnist and gay activist, but it isn't necessary for either, nor is it sufficient for notability on its own. I much prefer a formulation that describes him as a "gay activist", rather than attributing his notability (even in part) to simply being gay. Where gender, race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation is for a specific reason a fundamental part of notability, it's best to make explicit why (e.g., not "...is a female race car driver", but "...is the first female to win an AMA Pro Racing sprint road race").-- Trystan ( talk) 04:24, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Is Dan Savage a Copy Cat Michael Savage of Savage Nation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.246.162 ( talk) 07:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 12 external links on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.ocweekly.com/columns/savage-love/savage-love-what-is-good-sex-toy-etiquette/28468/When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:41, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 9 external links on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:03, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:33, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
If it is worth mentioning at all, Savage's comments on incels and sex work should probably be summarized as something like, "Savage said that the stigmatization of sex workers and their clients is one of the causes of the male entitlement that contributes to mass murders by incels. He rejected characterizations of his views as 'throwing sex workers at incels'". Read: [1] [2]. I wouldn't mention this at all unless third party sources have covered it. Characterizing a subtle argument entirely on primary sources is out of bounds of the WP:BLP policy. Self-published sources can be used in a BLP for unambitious statements the subject makes about themselves ("I've been to France. I'm no longer dating Bob.", but when it's complex, and doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, we need secondary sources to give us an analysis. See WP:SELFPUB and WP:PRIMARY. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:43, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Deisenbe: do you have a source for the "American cannabis activists" category? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:32, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dan Savage article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
WHO wants Dan Savages birthday to be 10 years ahead of what he himself has repeatedly pointed out as wrong? and WHY? someone seems to have an interest in preventing the wrong date from being edited. WHY is that so??? one of numerous sources for his correct age: http://www.savagelovecast.com/episodes/88#.UuqoNBzAnh4 unless he is a liar, his year of birth should be 1974, NOT 1964! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicky Romano ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm dreadfully sorry, please forgive me, I've pasted the wrong link. Here's the right one: http://www.savagelovecast.com/episodes/88#.UuqoNBzAnh4
I invite everybody to listen in on the podcast in the link above from min. 7:40 to 8:37 where the issue is addressed by a caller and then commented and clarified by Dan Savage himself. He says he's 34, not 43, and the conversation took place in 2008. Can we now edit the date, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicky Romano ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
{{Request close}}
When did he come out? That's an important part of his life, should we put it in there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.124.118 ( talk) 10:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
He's been out since high school. In other words, that status precedes his public life, so for all intents and public purposes, always. I don't think it's necessary to put in here, at this point it would be like putting in that someone discovered they liked the opposite sex in high school. 75.17.119.250 ( talk) 22:05, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
This but it was covered by some reliable sources and lots of advocacy groups/publications, so its absence here may be rather obvious, if anyone wants to take it on:
Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 16:53, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Why is there suddenly an influx of editors trying to remove the word "gay" from the lead? Savage's notability is largely based on his very public sexual orientation.- Mr X 01:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Another way to look at is to consider the guideline WP:OBVIOUS and ask, "If someone knew nothing about this person except what's in the first paragraph, would they be woefully ignorant?" If you knew only that Savage was a writer and didn't know he was gay, you'd be missing something. If you knew Pistorius was an athlete but had no idea he was an amputee, you'd be missing vital information. If you mistook Savage for Canadian, what's the real harm? It isn't really that important to know he's American. But if you thought he was a straight advice columnist you'd really not have a grasp of who he is.
There are many notable people whose orientation, gender, race, etc. are not important and we don't mention it in the lead. You have to pay attention to the subject and not apply simplistic rules across the board. Or better yet, look at your best sources. If the sources give it prominent mention, so should we.-- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 03:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Note: An IP restored the "gay" part, but put it after "American." Side note: People should usually sign in when they have a Wikipedia account and are editing a Wikipedia article. Flyer22 ( talk) 03:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
The first sentence will unavoidably be read as a statement about why this person is notable. We generally steer clear of race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation as independent components of that statement, I think for good reason. (African American appears to be the most widespread exception, for reasons discussed elsewhere.) For whom aren't those important characteristics? Not to say that being gay doesn't inform Savage's career as an advice columnist and gay activist, but it isn't necessary for either, nor is it sufficient for notability on its own. I much prefer a formulation that describes him as a "gay activist", rather than attributing his notability (even in part) to simply being gay. Where gender, race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation is for a specific reason a fundamental part of notability, it's best to make explicit why (e.g., not "...is a female race car driver", but "...is the first female to win an AMA Pro Racing sprint road race").-- Trystan ( talk) 04:24, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Is Dan Savage a Copy Cat Michael Savage of Savage Nation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.246.162 ( talk) 07:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 12 external links on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.ocweekly.com/columns/savage-love/savage-love-what-is-good-sex-toy-etiquette/28468/When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:41, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 9 external links on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:03, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:33, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dan Savage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
If it is worth mentioning at all, Savage's comments on incels and sex work should probably be summarized as something like, "Savage said that the stigmatization of sex workers and their clients is one of the causes of the male entitlement that contributes to mass murders by incels. He rejected characterizations of his views as 'throwing sex workers at incels'". Read: [1] [2]. I wouldn't mention this at all unless third party sources have covered it. Characterizing a subtle argument entirely on primary sources is out of bounds of the WP:BLP policy. Self-published sources can be used in a BLP for unambitious statements the subject makes about themselves ("I've been to France. I'm no longer dating Bob.", but when it's complex, and doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, we need secondary sources to give us an analysis. See WP:SELFPUB and WP:PRIMARY. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:43, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Deisenbe: do you have a source for the "American cannabis activists" category? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:32, 8 May 2021 (UTC)